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  • File :1196452868.jpg-(49 KB, 220x154, 1196452726439.jpg)
    49 KB Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:01 No.856019  
    One of my players just asked me if he could cast Apocalypse from the Sky with the rationale that "artifacts are priceless, meaning they don't have gold value, and thus are covered by Eschew Materials." How exactly should I bitch-slap him in-game for this?
    Marked for deletion (old).
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:03 No.856026
    Don't.

    Bitch-slap him in real life.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:04 No.856028
    Have Apocalypse drop down out of the sky and surprise buttsechs him. He's out of the game, cannot reroll.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:05 No.856030
    Smack him upside the head, then remind him that Artifacts DO have a value, an incredibly high one at that. Just because they have a listed price, does not mean their not worth something.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:05 No.856031
    >"artifacts are priceless, meaning they don't have gold value, and thus are covered by Eschew Materials."
    That's totally legal by RAW, you know. Of course, it's just another oversight that RAW fails to handle.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:09 No.856045
    >>856031
    Try to sell an Artifact, tell me that no one will buy it for gold. It lacks a listed value, but it has a value of x where x is some ungodly high amount.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:14 No.856061
    Once you get to epic-levels (or at least level 22), he can pick up Ignore Material Components. THEN he can cast Apocalypse from the Sky as much as he wants, and if he's a cleric, he's probably going to Divine Metamagic into an Explosive Apocalypse from the Sky for >9000 damage.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:15 No.856065
    >>856045
    And even if people didn't recognise a magic item as magical, wouldn't they pay the price for the equivalent ordinary item?
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:17 No.856071
    I just remembered why I don't play D&D.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:22 No.856079
    >>856071
    Because there's an oversight in the rules that TOTALLY makes it unplayable, HURRR.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:24 No.856083
    >>856079
    It's not an oversight, it's an asinine attempt at subverting the rules with semantics.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)15:26 No.856087
    >>856079
    No, because the game design encourages this kind of rules centric character creation and character development. Admittedly this is an extreme case of stupidity, but still...
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)16:23 No.856244
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    >>856061

    Explosive Spell forces an additional Reflex save (DC 10 + spell level + casting ability modifier) on any creatures caught in the area, and any creature that fails the save is ejected to the edge of the spell's area, taking 1d6 damage with no save for every 10 feet moved. Apocalypse from the Sky affects a 10-mile/level radius centered on you, so that's a 170-mile radius when cast by a 17th-level caster. 1 mile is equal to 5,280 feet, so that's effectively a 897,600-foot radius at caster level 17th. The moment the spell finishes its casting, a creature standing 10 feet away from the caster that failed its Reflex save would take 897,590d6 damage. Likewise, a creature standing 169.75 miles away from the caster that failed its Reflex save would take 1,320d6 damage.

    You'd better hope he doesn't have Divine Metamagic (Explosive Spell) once he gets his hands on an artifact.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)16:28 No.856260
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    >>856244

    Of course, the caster would also be subjected to the damage, but the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat from Complete Adventurer would let him escape unscathed.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)17:43 No.856461
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    >>856244
    >>856260

    Trying again after some insights from the WotC boards. For this tactic, you just need to be a 7th-level human wizard, and you don't even need an artifact for it. Take Energy Substitution: electricity or sonic (Complete Arcane), Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane), Born of Three Thunders (Complete Arcane), Flash Frost (Player's Handbook II), and Snowcasting (Frostburn) as your feats. Make sure you have Locate City (Races of Destiny) and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability on your spell list.

    Prepare all of your spell slots with Energy Substituted (electricity or sonic), Born of Three Thunders, Flash Frost Locate City spells. Save all of your 4th-level slots for Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Cast LGoI so you'll be immune to the havoc you'll be causing. Now grab some ice from the freezer and cast Locate City. Because of Snowcasting, it gets the [cold] subtype, but because of Energy substitution, it instead has either the [electricity] or [sonic] subtype. Flash Frost makes it deal 2 cold damage to everyone in the area, which then gets converted to 2 electricity or sonic damage. Born of Three Thunders makes that 1 electricity and 1 sonic, and forces a Fortitude save against being stunned and forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. Explosive Spell only affects spells that force a Reflex save, so we've got that covered.

    Locate City affects a 10-mile/level radius, centered on you. At caster level 7th, that's a 70-mile radius, or a 369,600-foot radius. So you'll be doing 1 electricity damage and 1 sonic damage. Anyone who fails both the Fortitude save and the Reflex save will be pushed to the nearest edge of the area, taking 1d6 damage for every 10 feet moved. That's going to be a very forceful and painful trip indeed.

    Once you cast it, all structures in a 70-mile radius will get utterly destroyed, and approximately half the population will fail their saves and violently get killed.
    >> Dawgas !3GqYIJ3Obs 11/30/07(Fri)17:46 No.856470
    >>856031
    He's right.

    BAD DM NO INTERNET
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)17:58 No.856496
    >>856461
    Holy shit.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:09 No.856519
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    >>856461

    It just occurred to me that you can't specifically prepare a Energy Substituted (electricity or sonic), Born of Three Thunders, Flash Frost Locate City spell because it doesn't have the [cold] subtype at the time of preparation. In that case, we'll just have to use a 9th-level human sorcerer instead so he can spontaneously apply metamagic after Snowcasting is added to the spell.

    Anyway, all non-magical structures and objects will automatically fail their saves since they're unattended. Living creatures, on the other hand, will have to fail both the Fortitude save AND the Reflex save in order to be ejected to hell and back. So you're only wiping out maybe half the population in a 70-mile radius in the first casting. You also get dazed for a round due to Born of Three Thunders. Once you recover, just cast the damn spell again and again and again. Cast Lesser Globe of Invulnerability as needed.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:18 No.856537
    >>856519

    Except spontaneously metamagicing a spell is a Full-Round Action, and Snowcasting requires that you gather up the snow as a move action IMMEDIATELY before casting the spell. So unless you have a way to do both a Move and a Full Round action in the same turn, no dice.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:21 No.856540
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    >>856537

    Metamagic Specialist variant from the Player's Handbook II. You can do without a familiar. Bam, no more need to up the casting time of spontaneously-metamagic'ed spells to a full-round action.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:22 No.856542
    >>856540
    I guess that'd work.
    So now we have an empty city.
    Now what? Loot the magic district for any magic items that wern't destroyed? heh...
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:30 No.856559
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    >>856542

    Everything non-magical would be ejected into the edge of the spell's radius. If you cast it multiple times, most magic items would eventually fail their saves and be ejected as well. Now that I think about it, the ground would take damage and auto-fail its saves as well, so you'd end up with a crater 10 miles/level deep.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:30 No.856560
    >>856537

    Variant sorc in PHB II loses familiar and gets metamagic that doesn't take a full round.

    Barring that I think there's something in CA that lets sorcerers prepare metamagic to not take a full round
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:36 No.856570
    >>856559
    And here is where powergaming starts to breakdown. Now we're 2 minutes away from claiming that he can knock the PLANET away rather than just people. And trees. And buildings. And mountains.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:41 No.856586
    >>856570
    Well, Locate City targets entire cities in a 10 mile per level circle. Last time I checked, the ground is part of a city, and blasting spells in general always affect the ground as well. It's just that the damage to the ground doesn't really matter, unless you try to cast a Fireball in a wooden house.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:43 No.856589
    >>856570
    Ah, Well that planet part isn't that important, since the current game i'd be in is just a large flat plane with mountains and such on it. It's not an actual round planet.

    So if the crater was too deep, they'd just have a giant pit that led down into the abyss.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)18:45 No.856593
    >>856586
    You're highly unlikely to get a DM to give approval to the combo to begin with, and even then, I doubt that he would declare "lol kay, your level 3 equivalent spell using a pile of sourcebooks is stronger than a nuke in regards to terrain destruction"
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:05 No.856632
    >>856593
    Even without getting it to make a crater, you're still destroying every single structure and creature in a 90-mile radius.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:29 No.856659
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    As an 18th-level human sorcerer, you can have also add Arcane Thesis: Locate City (Player's Handbook II), Repeat Spell (Complete Arcane), and Widen Spell to your spell list. Energy Substituted (electricity or sonic), Born of Three Thunders, Flash Frost, Repeated, Widened Locate City occupies a 7th-level spell slot. You can also afford to buy several of Greater Metamagic Rods of Enlarge.

    Assuming you use one of the Enlarge rods, your devastating spell now covers a 400-mile radius, and will repeat itself on the following round even as you are dazed.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:35 No.856672
    >>856659
    A 400-mile radius is, what, enough to destroy New York or most other major cities?
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:37 No.856674
    >>856672

    More like most of Nebraska.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:40 No.856681
    >>856672

    Most of England, if I read the scale on my map right. Japan gets messy too.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)19:52 No.856706
    >>856672
    Needless to say, that would punch through the crust and cause epic volcano shenanigans. Like, end of the world style, 400 days of night, ash-winter shenanigans.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:01 No.856728
    Wow.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:03 No.856738
    >>856706

    So you guys have just created a planet-killer spell. Out of Locate City. NICE.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:08 No.856758
    >>856738
    Yes, because a divination spell meant to find cities was destined to be the ultimate nuke substitute.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:26 No.856803
    >>856758

    Not my fault the wozards who made it didn't take in every eventuality.

    First rule of spellcrafting: consider how some prick is going to use this to annihilate everything
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:32 No.856817
    Just laugh in his face, tell him it doesn't work that way and he knows it, and suggest that he use his creativity to come up with something more in keeping with the spirit of the game instead of wasting everybody's time on rules-lawyering bullshit he knows the DM is never going to allow.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:38 No.856830
    >>856817
    >suggest that he use his creativity to come up with something more in keeping with the spirit of the game

    Like using Locate City to nuke half the continent, amirite?
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:40 No.856835
    This thing is at least 2 months old. Try running a search on Google for '"flash frost" d&d' and you'll get all sorts of results.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)20:43 No.856845
    >>856835

    >>856461
    >Trying again after some insights from the WotC boards.

    Yeah, he already admitted it was ripped off from the WotC boards. But apparently, a good portion of /tg/ is only aware of this now.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:04 No.857207
    I'm assuming that Explosive Spell ejects all affected targets to the boundary of the spell's area in the same roud that the spell is cast. So at level 18 with Extend and Enlarge for a radius of 400 miles, you have a spell that can generate a concussive shockwave strong enough to push a creature 400 miles in 6 seconds, or 67 miles per second. Holy shit.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:28 No.857259
    >>857207

    Hmm. If there was someway to use that speed to put men in space safely...
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:29 No.857260
    >>857207
    Yes, because Explosive Spell is just that damn hardcore.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:32 No.857265
    >>857259
    Give them Regen. It converts all damage to nonlethal. They'll be in a coma in orbit for a while, but they'll be fine.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:36 No.857270
    >>857265
    Unless the damage is sufficient to wrap around back to lethal.
    >> Anonymous 11/30/07(Fri)23:37 No.857276
    >>857270
    Subdual only adds up in 3.5, it never wraps back around. You can have a million subdual damamge, there is no cap, but it heals at the rate of hit dice/hour
    >> C. S. Goto 11/30/07(Fri)23:55 No.857320
    >>857302

    So you're telling me getting walloped with just over 7 million damage is barely enough to knock Tarrasque out for just under two fucking weeks?

    ...Let's break the system further.
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)00:05 No.857349
    >>857302

    Now is that damage from just moving, or impact damage?
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)00:28 No.857395
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    >>857259

    Keep in mind that you just abruptly stop once you hit the boundary of the spell area. Though Explosive Spell does say "towards the nearest edge", so I guess you could maintain the ridiculous velocity if you were directly above the caster.

    >>857276

    At caster level 20th, assuming you have Arcane Thesis: Locate City and apply Enlarge Spell and Widen Spell, your radius will be 440 miles or 2,323,000 feet. 1d6 damage per 10 feet moved. If you eat the full 440 miles, that's 232,300d6 (average 813,050 damage). We'll take the average for the purpose of calculations. Assuming that you had regeneration 1, you'd fully heal the damage in 1355.08 hours or 56.46 days. The tarrasque, with regeneration 40, would heal it in just 33.87 hours.
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)01:28 No.857601
    >>857395
    >The tarrasque, with regeneration 40, would heal it in just 33.87 hours.
    >regeneration 40, would heal it in just 33.87 hours.
    >heal it in just 33.87 hours.
    >33.87 hours

    Jesus.
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)08:25 No.858409
    >>857601
    Do the math, it's true. 40 hp every 6 seconds is nothing to be scoffed at.
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)10:27 No.858524
    >>856461
    >Energy Substitution: electricity or sonic (Complete Arcane)

    You can't pick Sonic for the 3.5 version of Energy Substitution.
    >> Anonymous 12/01/07(Sat)11:18 No.858600
    I declare this thread: awesome as fuck.

    Addendum: The author of the original Locate City nuke trick has provided the following updated version of this trick.

    Trying again after reading up more about it on the WotC boards. For this tactic, you just need to be a Human Sorcerer 6 with the Metamagic Specialist variant in exchange for your familiar. Take two flaws so that you can take Arcane Thesis (Locate City), Born of Three Thunders, Energy Substitution (electricity), Explosive Spell, Flash Frost, and Snowcasting your feats. Make sure you have Locate City on your spell list, and pack along several scrolls of Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.

    Cast Lesser Globe of Invulnerability from a scroll so you'll be immune to the havoc you'll be causing. Now grab some ice from a freezer as a move action and spend the entire next round casting Locate City, spontaneously applying Flash Frost, Energy Substitution (electricity), Born of Three Thunders, and Explosive Spell in that order. That'll use up a 3rd-level spell slot due to Arcane Thesis, but you should have four 3rd-level spell slots assuming you have 18 Charisma. Because of Snowcasting, the Locate City spell gets the [cold] subtype. Flash Frost makes it deal 2 cold damage to everyone in the area. Energy Substitution (electricity) changes the spell's subtype to [electricity] and turns the damage into 2 electricity damage. Born of Three Thunders then makes that 1 electricity damage and 1 sonic damage, and forces a Fortitude save against being stunned as well as a Reflex save against being knocked prone. Explosive Spell only affects spells that force a Reflex save, so we've got that covered.

    Locate City affects a 10-mile/level radius, centered on you. At caster level 8th, thanks to Arcane Thesis, that's an 80-mile radius, or a 422,400-foot radius. Anyone who fails both the Fortitude save and the Reflex save, which should each be DC 15 assuming you have 18 Charisma, will be pushed to the nearest edge of the area, taking 1d6 damage for every 10 feet moved. If someone was right in front of the caster and failed both saves, he'd be hurled the full 80 miles and take 42,240d6 damage (average 147,840 damage). That's going to be a very forceful and painful trip indeed. Once you cast it, all structures in a 80-mile radius will be utterly destroyed, and approximately a third the population will fail their saves and violently get killed. Now that I think about it, the ground would take damage and auto-fail its saves as well, so you'd end up with a crater 80 miles deep. Then after a round of being dazed from Born of Three Thunders, you cast it again and again and again, putting up a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability as needed.

    That is what you can do at 6th-level. Now we'll need to go Incantatrix for the next 10 levels, but unfortunately, we don't happen to have Iron Will. However, the retraining rules from the Player's Handbook II lets us switch out a feat of our choice for another feat before leveling up, so we're free to switch out Born of Three Thunders for Iron Will right before we take Incantatrix. We'll get BoTT right back since Incantatrix gives you a bonus metamagic feat at 1st-level. Right before hitting Incantatrix 4, we'll switch out Energy Substitution for a non-metamagic feat, and then get the former right back as a bonus feat. Before hitting Incantatrix 7, we'll do the same by switching out Explosive Spell for another non-metamagic feat of our choice, and then get Explosive Spell back as a bonus feat. Once we reach Incantatrix 9, we'll simply take Heighten Spell as our bonus metamagic feat.

    As a Human Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Stormcaster 1/Archmage 3, this is what your feat list should look like: Arcane Thesis (Locate City), Born of Three Thunders, Draconic Heritage (any electric), Draconic Power, Energy Substitution (electricity), Explosive Spell, Flash Frost, Greater Spell Focus (divination), Heighten Spell, Iron Will, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Snowcasting, Spell Focus (divination), Spell Focus (any).

    A Snowcasted, Flash Frost, Energy Substituted (electricity), Born of Three Thunders, Explosive, Heightened to 9th-level Locate City with Arcane Thesis and Improved Metamagic will take up but a 6th-level spell slot. Fill out your lower level slots with less metamagic'd Locate City spells. Assuming you took Spell Power as your High Arcana three times, you should have a caster level of 28th (20 base + 3 Spell Power + 2 Storm Spell Power + 2 Arcane Thesis + 1 Draconic Power), so your devastating spell will now cover a 280-mile radius. Assuming you have 34 Charisma (18 base + 5 stat boosts + 5 stat tomes + 6 Cloak of Charisma), the Fortitude and Reflex save DCs should each be 34 (10 + 9 spell level + 12 Charisma bonus + 1 Spell Focus + 1 Greater Spell Focus + 1 Draconic Power).

    1d6 damage per 10 feet moved. If you eat the full 280 miles, that's 147,840d6 (average 517,440 damage). We'll take the average for the purpose of calculations. If you somehow have regeneration 1, you'd fully heal the damage in 862.4 hours or 35.93 days. The tarrasque, with regeneration 40, would heal it in just 21.56 hours.

    Arcane Thesis, Flash Frost: Player's Handbook II
    Born of Three Thunders, Explosive Spell: Complete Arcane
    Snowcasting: Frostburn
    Stormcaster: Stormwrack
    Draconic Heritage, Draconic Power: Races of the Dragon
    Locate City: Races of Destiny
    Incantatrix: Player's Guide to Faerun



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