Humans get a bonus feat at first level.

The Gods love us.
Seriously. Human faith generates more divine power than other races.

Humans learn the fastest, therefore have the best commoners.

Humans breed like rabbits. You can kill scores of them off and they'll be back tenfold in 20 years (the blink of an eye to longer-lived races)

>>4633035
This. That elf archer that's been training for 50 years? The 19 year old human you found in the local tavern is better. That dwarf commoner with (gasp) 5 hit points from his bonus 2 to constitution? That woman baking pies took toughness, she's got 7. When your enemy's levy-infantry have power attack and cleave, you know you're fucked.

>>4633056
>>4633067
So, like orcs, if orcs were actually the fucking Romans? Because they've also got bonus skills. They can pull engineers out of fucking nowhere.

We breed faster then the other two:
- Elves have less children over their (much longer) lifespan then humans do and they mature slower.
- Dwarves would probably have more children but it is hard to (tactfully) find out who is female under all those beards and chainmail.
- Drow: Same as elves but add the fact that they kill eachother more often.
- Mind Flayers: Fuck if I know, I'm so not getting in to that discussion.

Plot armor. Humans are the mary sues of every setting, hence always triumphing against all odds and logic.

Because humans get shit done. In the time it takes an elf to grow up, become a smith, and forge a masterwork sword a few hundred humans already have and they don't give a fuck if the weapons are masterwork.

Because Humans are Rat Bastards. In the time a Dwarf lovingly mines only the purest metals and sells them to others for the tough work he must do, a thousand humans strip mined the SHIT out of the local mountain and gave all that metal to the mass production blacksmiths. Even if one out of every five of those blades break against a dwarf soldier, the other four can get him...

Because humans have a short memory. Every so often they forget why the dragon blew up their grainery and loot the fucking hoard while the dragon is out...

Because humans sometimes lack imagination. Its easy to play a human, we pretty much know how one works, looks, and acts...

Because fuck the elder races. They had their turn and they didn't get the shit right the whole time either.

Humans adapt the fastest, are the most ambitious, most reactive, and also happen to rank pretty damn high on the population count due to breeding and spread.

...

...

Also, we are one of the most diplomatic. We ARE the middle race. We'll trade to Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and probable even the Orcs. We don't have ANY racial enemies. In the long run, we make more friends then enemies.

OP here, I didn't consider the feat thing. The idea of humans being able to drag people off of farms and shine them up to the standards of the enemy's "real" troops in a matter of weeks is really... unsettling.
I also like the idea of humans getting shit done faster because they're mortal. They don't have time to be careful, they're not going to be dealing with the consequences of the shit they do later, and their children will deal with it the same way they did; strip mine a mountain, hammer the metal into billhooks, and throw 50,000 conscripts at whatever the problem is.

>>4633141
Yo someone was talking about this in an earlier "humans rock" thread. That it might be a good hook if humans were the only species with muscle memory, which means they're the only ones that can actually be "disciplined" into fighting. The rest of the species have warriors, but humans have soldiers.

>>4633093
I find this goddamn offensive. Humans are always depicted as flawed, dishonest doubleniggers who hate everything they don't understand and persecute the fuck out of everyone different. They're the opposite of mary sues in every setting except star trek.

>>4633141
Feats aside, why don't orcs, goblins, kobolds and other mook races win everywhere forever since they can do just as much?

I'm thinking that humans are in the 'sweet spot' between elder race capability and mook race speed. They can do great (even if not perfect) works without taking ages.

What other races could do this?

>>4633184
Don't worry about him, he's one of those self hating humans who sees us as the problem.

>>4633213
Also, he probably wishes he was a fairy.

>>4633191
A breed between a race that is too primitive and one that isn't primitive enough might hit that point.

>>4633184

See, the thing is that despite their so-called flaws they always win right?

I'm not too into dorfs or elves, but it gets pretty fucking boring when you're told how awesum dorfs and elves are yet the apparently underpowered humans keep winning.

>>4633184
Actually, towards the end of Star Trek you start seeing humans turn fucking dark. In Deep Space Nine, the captain teamed up with a Freaky-Fred assassin and fucking murdered like eight Romulans and some blue guy so that they could plunge aforementioned Romulans' parent nation into an unwinnable war with their former allies. They're only mary sues until they want something they can't get by playing nice. Which means they're not mary sues, they're dicks.

>>4633283
Humanity still being dicks in the post-scarcity Federation era was the point of DS9, after all.

>>4633213

Oh fuck you. I just want some balance, instead of HUMANS R DER WINRAR all the time. Also, fuck that humans becoming elves bullshit.

Aren't humans also the weakest willed race because they don't live as long?

Adaptability. Morally, Mentally, Socially, Physically.

>>4633328
That's always been a running theme. Because of their mortality, you can tempt humans very easily. They want to live forever but, barring that, they want a legacy, to be important. Offer them the chance to be remembered forever, and a human will walk barefoot into hell.

>>4633351
So a human paladin would basically be perfect because they blindly follow a higher power and cannot be corrupted?

>>4633299
Not quite sure what you're saying here. Humans have flaws, but so does everybody else. I don't think I've ever heard someone so upset over humans being... too good. The human "strength" is that they don't all get wiped out by fucking dragons, despite not having 50,000 year old tree cities, ancient undermountain strongholds, or their own personal army of magical spider monsters to defend them. Humans don't "win", they hold on until everyone else dies. If that means pulling stalingrads every other week, that's what they do, they can afford it.

>>4633394
Ah, perfect is a dangerous word. Because the humans want to be remembered and important, they are ambitious. A human paladin may be corrupted by his desire to do *more* good than everybody else, to be a better paladin. And then you get the fucking inquisition.

>>4633406

Not true, in every setting humans are dominant. If that's not winning I don't know what is.

>>4633406

Nah not upset, it's probably 40k pissing me off.

>>4633438
Dominant is also a dangerous word, if you base it off of numbers, then the kobolds and goblins are dominant. If you base it off of territory, it probably goes to the Drow or the mindflayers. Wealth goes to dragons and dwarves, magic goes to elves, humans seem to have created their own criterion for dominant. Not surprisingly, they fill those criterion.

It comes down to sustainable populations.

Take a given population of a species and calculate the standard number of deaths they will sustain due to the common threatening nature of their environment ('adventurers' for evil races, natural disasters, hostile species (both intelligent and non intelligent), opposing kingdoms and internal strife/conflict) that will affect their adult population, and subtract that from the number of their species that will reach adulthood (take the standard birth rate in that given time period of the species, lessened by the mortality rate of the species young before they reach adulthood) and you'll get a general idea of how fast the species will grow in a normal time period.

Take into account that every species the OP mentioned in his post are supposedly long living and slow growing, and you realise the opposite question is true.

How the hell do things like Elves survive when it would take them centuries to recover from a natural disaster that Humans would recover from in a matter of Decades? Let alone Drow, a species that breed as slowly as Elves yet live in what is commonly known as the most inhospitable location in the world.

Hell, look at Goblins. Fuckers must breed like it's going out of style, seeing how low in the food chain they seem to be.

Why do white people still exist when black people are better at athletics and asians are smarter?

>>4633463

>Drow or the mindflayers

Really?

>>4633484
Are either of them smart AND athletic?

>>4633484

Geographical limitations to population growth.

>>4633494
Also, I just realized that Asians are becoming elves.

>>4633191
Potentially Hobgoblins. Maybe some of the lesser giant races.
>>4633221
>wishes he was a fairy.
Don't we all?

The real reason humans kick so much ass? There's a fucking ton of humans, and when you fuck with them it's like poking a goddamn beehive. Not only does the human you fucked with come after you, every other human he can get his hands on will come after you too.

Elves, Dwarves don't do that shit. And while Orcs, Kobolds and other monsters races are numerous and also intelligent warriors they don't posess the social structure that humans do. The Orcs are the closest so far, I think, but the rest are small tribes living out in the middle of nowhere. Where they're not going to be bothered for the most part.

Trouble is that fantasy settings all but invariably segregate different races such that they all have their own little closed societies where they make art that is better than humans and train warriors that are better than humans and so on. It inherently makes no sense without some kind of artificial barrier of xenophobia involved.

>>4633484
They aren't. The white man has simply educated them to think they are more athletic and intelligent, so that they are content to throw balls around for his entertainment and do his taxes.

>>4633497

Ah! That explains why forrest-dwelling elves and mountain-dwelling dwarves don't grow like humans do.

>>4633485
The Underdark. Though with everything else down there it's a little debatable. I would have given it to the Aboleths.

>>4633519

Or be their President, amirite?

>>4633533
A species that seriously needs more air-time, agreed.

I'm a fan of a situation where humans decides to becomes more than human(or less depending on your perspective) in order to compete with this world full of magic creatures ready to rip their asses open.

Sort of a medieval transhumanism.

Or something.

>>4633406

This... more specifically Stalingrad.

2 million casualties. Fighting eyeball to eyeball. Rat war. Average life expectancy for a Soviet conscript was under a week.

Pic is Pavlovs house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov%27s_House

A soviet platoon held that for 2 months without being relieved, and fought of daily tank and infantry attacks.

That's why humans are badass. Because we are harder to get rid of than rats or cockroaches.
Because, not allways, but in the right time and right place we will live through sheer unmitigated hell and fight all the way through.

>>4633539
We already covered celebrity entertainers.

>>4633545
Absolutely. Demon-fish from the beginning of time that rule the oceans are awesome. I think the reason they get short shrift is because most campaigns are land-based.

Towards the end of 3.5 when the Fendish Codex I&II were realised the devs actually goes as far as saying in a discription of the Pact Primeval that tons of Material Plane worlds inhabited by the common races were annhilated entirely by planar beings and the gods couldnt even stop it until Asmodeus saved the fucking day! Humans are around (actually all the lesser races expecially elves with BS like dying to cats) cause the big A wants it that way!

>>4633023

...because the other races were created from humans by eldritch horrors. They were created for centrain purpose and they have served it well, now that the eldtritch horrors went sleeping in the depths of earth, elves, dwarves and such have lost their guidance and without it, they will eventualy go extinct in few millenia...

>>4633559
>>4633406
OP here, thread's turning into a race war, but these are good answers. Humanity may suck at taking other people's shit over (they get raped if they invade elf forests or try to jack dwarf mountains or, god help them, the underdark) but they can hold onto what they have. If the humans want to hold Normandy beach, they might hold it. But if they NEED to hold Volgograd, they're going to fucking hold it.

>>4633558
Medieval transhumanism you say? Ideas, newsletter, etc.

>>4633593
I doubt they go extinct. They would probably survive as half breeds then eventually evolve back into a mirror image of their former selves.

>>4633609
First Age Exalted sort of counts.

>>4633579
I'm going to go start up a fucking Aboleth thread, because these guys need some discussion. Good evening Gentlemen.

>>4633602

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender,


We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim?

I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.

Winston Churchill really captured that spirit very well.

>>4633609
The latest version of the idea was a thread where someone wanted an excuse for tons of winged people in a setting. Humans unlock some inherent divine shard in themselves and BAM everyone is an angel or something.

Or just combining with aspects from nature. Animals, elements, plants, inanimate objects, concepts. A bunch of half human types all hanging around eachother insisting they are all human.

I am Drowr, the half dresser! Son of Flor!

>>4633671
So humans not only make the best paladins because of their great ability to draw on faith, but also make the best bards because of their great ability to help deliver that faith. What happens if you have a 4 man party with 1 paladin and 3 bards?

>>4633695

They get brutally slaughtered. Because sometimes that's how this shit goes down.

The hardcore bit comes in when the next wave and the next and the next go after whoever did the slaughtering in the first place.

Depends on your campaign setting fluff. I mean, just ask yourself why different races or nationalities haven't consumed each other on Earth. I mean, why didn't the Mongols conquer the Aztecs?

Medieval Transhumanism? That's how Tieflings happened.

>>4633694
Or hell.

Whatever else you guys can think of. Just ways of altering humans to make survival easier.

Perhaps in a way that leaves newborns looking normal.. so whatever is done happens AFTER birth. Perhaps immediately or as a young child when they can make their desires for their life known(so they can be altered accordingly).

Having to decide that young isn't so out there either. Medieval times, whatever you did as a child was usually what you did as an adult thanks to the nature of both occupations available and education. Both lended themselves to years and years of training, and you couldn't just change whatever you found yourself in.

>>4633745
Fucking shit, this made me lol way too hard.

You know, Dragonborn, Tieflings, and those... uhh. Other guys. The metal ones. Can't think of their names right now.

Well anyway they would be awesome in the right setting.

>>4633804
It's also how demigods happened, and it didn't really change anything other then having 2 more races who want to kill each other.

>>4633842
Warforged. Warforged already HAVE the right setting. It's called Eberron.

>>4633855
>>4633804
Well.. hopefully it would REPLACE humans entirely while still insisting they are humans. Also, institute a ritual to transform the youths rather than it being a passed on genetic trait. Everyone is born normal and is changed afterwards.

Medieval Transhumanism.

>>4633879
Oh and add to the horror

Anyone that rejects becoming part of the new humanity dies. Either killed by their own kind or because they just can't compete with the super races.

Also one should notive that humans are pretty much willing to do anything to expand, while Elves may frown upon using methods that contradict their gods saying...

Humans are better at almost everything than almost every race. Srsly. D&D humans are like Tolkien elves in that regard.

There's 1 or 2 things a given race does better than a human, but everything else, humans do better.

Also, mind flayers, demons and drow don't remotely threaten mankind, because they are CONSTANTLY KILLING EACH OTHER.

To put it bluntly: Humans in DnD are horndogs. Name any other race that has more "Half"s in it than humans. They screw everything, and probably reproduce so fast that they overrun almost all other races. You just wiped out a human city? 20 years later and it's back in action. Let's see some faggoty elves, or even mighty dwarves do that.

>>4633745

This. We'll die by the droves by a hundred elves, but guess what? If it's twenty men to each elf, we've got you by the fucking scrote. We'll charge up the bodies of our friends and fellow soldiers, all the more furiously charging for how you've cut them down, and we'll overwhelm you in the end. And may all your gods and even our own pantheon help you if you're the aggressor- because there is nothing humans will do to keep what they need. On top of that, we are the most vengeful, dirty, dastardly bastards out there. If we ARE all going to die, we're going to do our damnedest to take all of you with us. Mutually Assured Destruction? Yes please. How many rulers have made pacts with celestials, demons, devils, and fiends to avenge their deaths or the destruction of their countries? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a sweeping majority. We do not fall lightly- we'll take down as many as we can when we land hard.

>>4633905
And they look on humans as insane.

Despite the dead piling, every man charging the line thinks THEY won't be the one to die like the others. They'll live on. Every man confidant in their personal survival shortly before their death.

It might drive people like the elves ABSOLUTELY BONKERS. You're charging a guy with hundreds of years of combat experience on you, and with a physical anatomy that is just BETTER than yours. You think you won't run through?

And longer lived races would value their lives more, naturally. A human will jump on a blade because they'll be dead in a decade or two anyway. An elf is going to want to live out the 500+ years he has left.

>>4633886
Demigods and tieflings still don't learn as fast as humans, because they are "perfect". It would be better for them to learn everything then ascend then to become their own race.

>>4633876
I knew it was War-something. Thanks. I never really got into Eberron. Don't know why.

If a race other than humans is assured destruction, then they think, what's the point of further fighting? What does it mean in the end?

If all of mankind is about to be pacified, we'll pacify right back. Because it's about sending a message. You took us down- and we glorify going down swinging. You shall know whom has fought us by the scars on their bodies, and they shall remember us when the wind turns cold and all the old wounds ache anew, when the storms roll in and they are pained by the memories of the impact of a mace or hammer. There will be those who are always reminded by the absence of a hand, unable to hold their children as they once did, or their sight forever altered by a blade across an eye. And all will remember by those they have lost- their absence shall be our grim victory, the highest price they paid for our extermination. They will remember the message we sent: We will -not- submit.

And now I just got a campaign idea for an entire race being exterminated, then taking over some planes of the abyss, gaining power, and finally rising again tainted by their time in those dark places, to fight their battles anew- with new allies of demons and horrors from beyond time, and any beings that begrudge the existence of our common foes.

>>4633891
Tolkien was trying to imply that his elves are biblical angels.

And STILL, we helped them out against Sauron.

>>4633897
Yup

>>4633947
Dude.

This is separate from the whole "huur elves lurn slo" crap that crops up as the only defense of humans in threads like this.

The point isn't to make up something humans have over others. The point is that the perception that humans are screwed IS RIGHT. Other races are human+. There is no 'they take 100 years to learn 2+2' or 'they aren't as driven as us! they sleep for 15 hours every day!' or crap like that.

It's "okay humanity is fucked. What do we do about that?"

I'm open ideas on what they do, though.

Why do mammals still exist?
Why didn't dinosaurs hunt us down?

>>4633981
>>And now I just got a campaign idea for an entire race being exterminated, then taking over some planes of the abyss, gaining power, and finally rising again tainted by their time in those dark places, to fight their battles anew- with new allies of demons and horrors from beyond time, and any beings that begrudge the existence of our common foes.

Oh shit. OH SHIT YES.

My planned elf genocide campaign is going to go from lulzy to epic when the players find out that those fucking elves pulled this shit on them to turn the tables. FUCK YES.

>>4633981
Not allies. Demon allies are uncontrollable. SLAVES. We will beat the lower-planes to our task. Reforge them into the instrument of our revenge. We are already dead, driven to extinction. What fear have we of hell?

>>4634005
I'm fine with the half-angel/demon thing if that's the conditions then.

>>4634032
Because when Dinosaurs roamed the only mammals that existed were small rat/shrew type creatures that hid from everything because it wanted to fucking eat them.

>>4633981
If I kill you, eat your heart and brains will I gain your courage and ideas?

we are humans so we naturally think we are awesome.

>>4633671
That's because Winston Churchill was a fucking BADASS.

Pic related, it's him fighting Nazi zombies alongside Jack Churchill in the battle for London. Historical accuracy not guaranteed.

>>4634084

No, you'll get kuru.

>>4634097
And we are correct, because we're talking about humans.

>>4634051
So just taking tieflings and retooling them from, "NO WE AREN'T EVEN IT ISN'T MY FAULT I HAVE HORNS," to, fuck you WE ARE humanity now!" Replacing humans.. with unaltered ones being an extreme.. EXTREMELY SMALL minority. Even oddity.

And every other human they ran into would bug them to get altered, "Dude, this is awesome. It's so cool"

Or just tons of people with wings. All excelling at divine power(making humans using divine classes overly common and a god favorite)? Or, if they go in for a mundane class, uncanny insight into their actions thanks to their borderline divine status anyway.

>>4634116
Mind making sense?

>>4634129
As much as I like wings, a race of winged people just seems..

Sue?

>>4634137

No, stop, do not pass Go, do not collect 200gp.

No individual trait or series of traits inherently makes a character Sue.

Even the trait "loved by all", which is a FUCKING LYNCHPIN of Mary Suedom does not make a character Sue by default.

And hell, it just seems like you'd knock things over all day with those giant ass wings.

>>4634144
..Well now!

Anyway, it also seems like the wings would just be inconvenient as all hell. All clothing and armor needs to be specially made.

>>4634168
...like anyONE else. Armor made for some random guy doesnt fit too well on you, especially if they're a different race.

What's the difference between a tiefling and a demonspawn?

>>4634191

I'd wager demonspawn are direct descendants of demons where tieflings are only distantly related.

Just adding wings to something doesn't make it cool. Stop adding wings to things. God dammit.

>>4634178
Even more special than normal.

Though even a regular shirt suddenly becomes a giant pain in the ass. You can't just slip it on. You can't just have slits on the back. how do you fit in the shirt to get the wings through in the first place? gotta cram your whole self in first..

So no other ideas?

No help?

No one cares?

>>4634216
But aren't angel wings made of because magic?

>>4634216

The haltertop is your answer.

>>4634216
First, imagine the hulk trying to put on armor made for a dwarf.
Second, making armor for someone with wings wouldnt be that difficult if it were platemail, two slits that run all the way down the back, and are held closed by leather straps, kinda like a boot-buckle.

>>4633985
That's because an Elf thinks like "I'm fucked if I don't do this." where a Man thinks "We are all fucked. Period. ... I'm going to MURDER that goddamned eyeball!"

Why do humans exist in a world where there are dextrous elves, tough dwarves, quick halflings, magical gnomes, and variations in between?

Because fuck you, we're human, and if you don't like us, you're welcome to say it to our faces.

We're not the fastest, strongest, toughest, OR the most socially capable. We're not the biggest. We're not the smallest. We don't breed the fastest. We're not specifically designed for magic. We've got nothing on anyone else. If anything, we cover our bases and cover them well enough for our purposes.

We've got nothing to lose except our comparatively short lives and everything to gain.

We're the motherfucking gamblers of the planar realms.

>>4634250
This man speaks the truth.

The moment a man realizes all is fucked, he pretty much loses all goals except "I'M TAKING AS MANY AS THOSE COCK MUNCHING FAGGOTS AS I CAN WITH ME." Add in a couple berserker packs or two for every cause said man has to fight for.

>>4634239
What are you suggesting, exactly?

Wings not connected to the body? They actually float a noticable(but still very close) distance off the shoulder blades? Maybe the wings themselves are immaterial? Possibly shrinking to fun size when not specifically being used?

Seriously, wings wouldn't work on humans anyway. They'd have to be gigantic and people would have to develop humongous muscles and become very light, thereby becoming fragile.

Of course then you could say that they are using magic, but then what's the point of the damn wings anyway? They're bulky, heavy, and even restrict backpacks. Fuck wings.

>>4634262
>>We don't breed the fastest.

Pretty damn close.

>>4634292
All of the above.
>>4634293
A wizard did it.

>>4634293
you know theres a race that already has wings

>>4634324
They're too awesome to mention

>>4634292
I think I would just prefer unwinged devil girls myself.

Why are humans successful? They're innate diplomats. It's true that they don't have a bonus to Charisma, or even to Diplomacy like Half-Elves.

However, humans have an unparalleled ability to "persuade" opposite-sex members of the opposite race. Where do you think all those half-breeds come from? When a human city needs to deal with another race, they send their biggest pimp/slut to make that race's ruler very fond of humans.

tl;dr--Humans thrive because other races want to sex us.

>>4634293
A six foot person would need need about an eighteen foot wingspan, that's thirty six feet wingtip to wingtip, and that's with hollow bones and other stuff.

>>4634293
>Wings don't work that way.
Yes we know. We don't CARE. Just like we don't care that Dragons, Floating Eyeball Covered Heads, and Angels don't work.

>>Wings
>>Possibly shrinking to fun size when not specifically being used?

That's actually a fun idea, although I suspect someone else has already used it.

>>4634346
if by persuade you mean the inferior sex gets kidnapped and impregnated against their will.

>>4634339
Yes, let's go with this. I guess I just feel that wings are so damn cliched. I blame the furries.
>>4634348
Exactly, fuckhuge.

The wings don't really allow flight, they actually channel divine energy which may or may not be used for flight.

Seriously, WINGS WINGS WINGS just feels silly personally. I don't know why.

But I do like the idea of humans being the GO TO for divine power. We embrace it easily and fanatically. Hell, even modern day we've made science our new god.

Because all the other races are "human but different" and without pure humans to interact with they would not be interesting.

>>4634380
Oh, you are stronger, tougher, and faster than I am?

Well then. I don't know about you, but I can reduce the toughest of foes to naught but their skeletal remains with lightning from the sky.

What about you?

>>4634412
A demonspawn can do the same thing with hellfire, but also animate the skeleton afterwards.

>>4634084

Glad to've inspired someone. And no, you may not eat me. I've paid enough for college, I'm going to finish that first before I die or someone eats me.

Somehow, I want to work Dagon in there. Not for any particular reason, but just because he's so slick and so awesome. That's partly another thread I'm posting in talking though, and my general love of the abyss. Fuck'n A' man, if you can be arsed to do this, /tg/, please post updates on how it goes with your mates here.

>>4634412
"You call me a pitiful human. So high and mighty. You've hundreds of years of battle. A body you would call perfection. You laugh at the idea that I would consider myself your better.

It is true. I've not even taken on a magic discipline to even the feild. I cannot summon legions of undead, or command holy wrath, or set my foes afire with but a thought. I have nothing but my wits and the metal of my blade.

But I've studied, and I've prayed. I've been granted vision. And insight. I see this sword and shield.. this whole battle field.. in way you can't imagine. I don't need a thousand years to train like you.. for I already know how to defeat you just by looking at you.

Now prepare yourself, elf. You'll know what being human means shortly."

>>4634466
Speech made up on the fly, but the power described is something I've played around with for a hero.

Rather than being super human because you've mastered the use of <insert special mystical energy name here> or because you've been physically altered to just be better, you have insight.

Why can you split a boulder with a single blow? Maybe even bare handed? You see the world and its makeup in a clearer/deeper/broader fashion. You can do it because you know precisely how to strike it. You could discern where to strike it with a look. You knew how to tweak your body and your blade just right for a blow of power none would think you capable of.

And from there you can bullshit a whole lot of super human stuff.

You guys totally stole that from Fate/Stay Night. There is a guy who can see lines in things that when cut with any bladed object cause it to fall apart.

>>4634562
Except that isn't what I'm talking about at all.

>>4634506
what do you think INT to AC and damage is supposed to represent,

Factotum ftw

>>4634562
>You guys totally stole that from Fate/Stay Night. There is a guy who can see lines in things that when cut with any bladed object cause it to fall apart.
Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, actually.

A lot of 'racial superiority' in this thread... especially when we get to all that "but we persevere" crap.
Bullshit. Any other sentient race would hold on to existance (if not to the same degrees for resources as that depends on their value of each individual resource, just like humans have their own) just as hard, if not harder, knowing they can't breed as fast.

What humans really have going for them? They're just roughly equal to the other "major" races, despite having a goblin/rabbit/tribble level of breeding.

That 60 year old dwarven cadet probably CAN hold two human soldiers of similar skill at once on the front. Problem is, there's 6 of them, not 2, and each of them left behind a gaggle of kids with their wife/cousin on the farm, ready to replace him about twelve-fourteen years from now, while the dwarf's kid is still just learning to walk.

Average statted fuckmachines with rapid growth and gestation rates compared to 'elder' races. That's what makes us dangerous. We're Gobbos mkII.

>>4633609
Holy shit, fucking awesome. My next character is gonna be a Blood of Vol medieval Transhumanist.

fundamental answer? everyone else has warriors. humans have soldiers. totally different system.

>>4634642
How should I explain it..?

It's like the world is the matrix. Except you can't bend the laws of reality. You can, however, abuse the shit out of them to the upper limit of what is possible. Of course, what is "realistically possible" can be bullshitted if you're saying you can punch harder than anyone of you strength should be able to because you know how to tweak your movement to deliver max power.

Anyway, you know on an almost innate level how to twist your body to say, perform a back flipping double twist hatchet attack. Rather than having to practice for months to master the movement you do it because you "just know" how one is supposed to twist and move to get those acrobatic feats. If you actually do practice maybe you can do stuff that almost looks impossible for a mortal to move like..

Or you can 'see' a weakpoint. Every structure has them, and even the strongest thing built has a point which can be struck to easily bring it down. The keystone in an arch, for instance. So not only do you strike harder by mastery of movement.. you know where to deliver it for maximum pain.

Or your insight allows you to train efficiently and to a new level. Specific training to give you super human toughness.

Course.. you still have to train to be strong and dexterous in the first place. Just because you know how the splits work doesn't mean you can do them yourself. Someone too fat to do a back flipping hatchet attack still can't do it.

Regular people train their whole lives to try to learn what perfect technique is. You start knowing the answer already, essentially. This allows you to push the envelope even FURTHER though. So there is still room for training.

And not to mention gaining the sight in the first place.

Really, it is just sort of an excuse for all the crazy kung fu type shit you see in media. Or stories where swordsmen perform feats that shouldn't be possible. Extraordinary tales. Or how a human fighter can do stuff that seems to break the laws of physics despite not knowing magic. He just knows precisely how to do it.

Think of it as MARTIAL POWER SOURCE EXTREME.

>>4633985
this reminds me of Tyrael
'well, I could go kill diablo, but i could also just sit here on my ass and do nothing.'

>>4634732
Ninja wall jumping?

Yeah, that can happen. Just a normal person can't master the precise timing and application of power that sort of thing takes. And no two walls will be exactly as you practiced. The timing will be different.

Yet you don't need to practice beforehand. You can ascend to the clouds if you want..

Er.. if you don't run out of wall first.

Lets see humans

1] Do everything about 90% as well as every other race

2] Learn faster and can learn damn near anything

3] Breed fast yet arent stone age retards like orcs or as easily killed as Goblins/Kobolds

4] Build large stable societies with their potentially huge populations

They also arent terribly outclassed by anything.Marginally more agile on average Elves arent going to wipe out humans 10-1 especially when the Humans can take a punch better

>>4633941
>elf
>and with a physical anatomy that is just BETTER than yours.

No. Just...no.

See, here's the thing about humans. They LEARN things about ten times as fast as anyone else, and they're adaptable as fuck. An elite Elvish swordsman might take decades to train, even a century or so. Meanwhile, humans have churned out entire GENERATIONS of knights by that point, each of whom is a match for said elf.

Humans being adaptable makes them scary too. You fight humans, you don't know WHAT to expect. Peasant archers who've been practicing since they were little, and know the forest like the back of their hand? Roman-style engineer-soldiers with siege weapons and fortification skills out the ass as well as tactics? Disciplined mercenaries specializing in small-unit tactics and seek-and-destroy missions? A bloodthirsty mob of berserkers? Peasant infantry backed by a massive line of heavy cavalry in full platemail and armed with lances? Preparing to fight humans is ridiculously hard, especially since the makeup of their forces can change in the course of a single ruler's lifetime.

>>4634942
Except this is a crap excuse and you know it.

>>4635004
It's actually sounding like a really... good excuse. If we're still operating off of the OP's shit (D&D humans as adaptable) than that's exactly how humans would be. Human warriors=Dwarven Fighters-1 HP. Yeah, no, that's pretty fucking scary when you consider that there are twice as many of them, and they're just as smart, just as advanced, and generally more skilled in a wider variety of things.

>>4634942
As it was explained in one of R.A. Salvatore's books... *vomit*, Humans have less of a time frame to live, so they learn all they can and become the best/most volatile in what ever they do.

>>4635030
Except discussion of these kinds are supposed to be done with the understanding that this is from a FLUFF standpoint.

Also, those are adventurer's stats. If we go common man to common man.. the average elf should blow the average human out of the water. Even the bulk of a military. Practically every elf should have class levels. Very few humans do.

Sudden cold snap, temperatures drop to near freezing.
Humans: Every peasant takes the resistant to cold feat and still has a feat left over for something like specialization in a trade skill. Humans adapt.
Everything else: either takes the resistant to cold feat or dies. The ones that survive are barely hanging on, having spent their one feat on survival skills.

Repeat for any number of disasters.

>>4635059
It's called heavy clothing, genius.

And structures built to retain warmth.

>>4634129

This sounds pretty boring, all "LOL HUMANS SUCK EVERY RACE IS BETTER ASCEND OR DIE" is gay as shit, it's the sort of thing furries come up with.

>>4635055
We don't actually know that. Your average joe elves spend their days frolicking through the trees and pursuing whatever artsy shit they feel like doing, not diligently training at the arts of war. Sounds more like most of them are artisans who happen to know how to fight. Further, how precisely do you figure that the average dwarf or elf is actually superior to a human except insofar as their obvious racial benefits dictate? This isn't goddamn Tolkien, elves aren't angels in the flesh, they're elves. They're a bit more nimble than humans, and a bit less meaty. Put them in an arm wrestle, they'll break about even, except the human has Improved Armwrestle and Weapon Proficiency: Thumb.

>>4635077

Which humans do faster anyway. Although Dwarves are fine, since caves keep a fairly constant temperature and they have geothermal power anyway.

>>4635082
Real men take what they have and fuck the world with it. The word "Men" is synonymous with Human for a goddamn reason.

>>4634380
>we've made science our new God

That's the kind of shit I hear YECs bitching about far too often. Science is not a religion, science is based on observable, testable facts.

>>4634466

I don't really like the whole "PRAYER IS THE STRENGTH OF MAN" thing, it reeks of Fundie. Humans are SELF-sufficient. We're terrifying because we're descended from one of the most effective and adaptable group predators ever to walk the earth, not because we pray to an invisible man in the sky.

>>4635123
Science is based on getting your name on a discovery first and finding what you want.

Only after 10 years is it then based on observable fact.

Why not just give humans a bonus to int. Solves a lot of problems by apply enough brain power. Also it's the best explanation why humans are better. Humans are smarter than every other race and they KNOW it too.

>>4635091
>Which humans do faster anyway.

How do you figure? Because elves are so damn lazy that they'll willingly freeze to death rather than cloth up and insulate their buildings?

It's been said already. Crap like "well humans are more tenacious and blah blah blah" doesn't hold water. ANY species is going to be very desperate to survive. That isn't a human specific trait. There isn't any reason to think elves or dwarves or something would lack such a very basic survival instinct.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not an elf sympathizer. If anything, the way humans are treated in stories makes me mad. Anime? Manga? Just plain old fantasy novels? Other miscellaneous media? Humans are always treated as if they are RETARD BABIES. I'm tired of it, really.

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend these reasons aren't crap.

>>4635004

What? No it isn't. If you're going to spew shit about how everyone is superior to humans UNLESS THEY PRAY REALLY HARD, then you don't get to whine when actual facts are presented.

>>4634715
Ah, Blood of Vol. "The gods created us to live out this existence, then when they tire of us we are cast into the grey NOTHING that souls retire to when we die. And the Priests of the Host say I should be GRATEFUL for this. That I should THANK the gods for consigning me to an eternity of NOTHING. That I should BOW and SCRAPE before their altars and temples for the PRIVILEGE of being their AMUSEMENT. Fuck the gods, and fuck their AFTERLIFE. I make my own fate, and not the gods, not the Rajah, not even Syberus' Last Tyranny will stand before me."

What allows humans to make a place in the world? We don't have a mating season, that's what.

>>4633023
2 reasons.

Illumians, and Elan.

Illumians are the ultimate in human versatility. Their bodies and minds are literally designed for multiclassing. Their magical powers enhance it to the extent that it makes Multiclassing almost a necessity (and, by the way, you 4e people might want to take note that that's where your shifting spellcasting/damage/to hit bonuus from one stat to another came from!) as well as crafting intricate plots that can take many decades to come to fruition. Most people - including humans - don't even realize the illumians exist which makes their job that much easier.

Then there are the elan. Immortal, hard to kill, and the epitome of everythign humanity strives for - the ultimate adventurer who adventures because that is what he was born to do, even before becoming an immortal. they remember the falls of kingdoms, watch generations of elvews pass by, and recall with perfect clarity the events of human lifetimes. They can lead by example, reforging human societies after the most cataclysmic events of the world, or even the planes. They do so simply because of who and what they are, rather than any planned or concerted efforts on their part.

>>4635123
>Science is not a religion, science is based on observable, testable facts.

That doesn't stop everyone from TREATING it like a religion, however. You know the kind of people I am talking about.

Science is the new religion. Reason is our new God.

>>4635146

Because elves are so steeped in tradition and in a relatively unchanging society that they WON'T be able to adapt in time. Humans have shorter lifespans, they pack more in, we see this in pretty much EVERY fantasy setting.

Any species will be desperate to survive, humans don't just survive, they THRIVE. We've basically got Spiral Power on our side. Elves are willing to fade away, Dwarves will hide in the mountains, but mankind doesn't go anywhere, it fights head-on.

Anime and manga (depending on which one) tend to have humans as the dominant species (you know, just like I said before), and instead of "retard babies" they often include the only people actually FIXING the problems. Same in fantasy novels. Oh, look, the Elves are going to go fade into the West, what do the Numenorians do? FUCK IT LET'S MARCH INTO MORDOR. Unless the only fantasy book you've ever read is Eragon, you're an idiot.

>>4635164
Get out.

>>4635164

Religion requires faith. I can easily go take a Biology class, see the evidence of evolution for myself, observe that physics makes sense with the world around us. Science doesn't ask you to blindly follow, in fact, that's anathematic to science as a whole. We don't WORSHIP reason for the same reason, we simply value it. I gather that you're some kind of idealistic religionfag, but don't try to argue with someone who actually understands what science IS.

Why don't you go back to claiming bats are birds and grasshoppers have four legs, hmm?

>>4635164
You can't worship science, because science can't tell you how to live your life well. What you can do is arbitrarily decide what you want and then use science to justify nobody being able to tell you you're wrong.

>>4635161
Yes we do. Its every day ending in y.

>>4635162

They sound like Mary Sues.

>>4635205

Medical science can help tell you how to live your life well, as can social science. The difference in that and religion is that religion is based on "God told us to", whereas science is based on "society moves more smoothly and you'll live longer".

>>4635201

That's a harsh overreaction. Were this not the internet, I'd say he provoked you by touching a sensitive subject.

But this is the internet.

>>4635201
>Religious
Please don't lump him in with us, he's not doing anything religious, he's being an unreasonable fucktard.

>>4635217
Health =/= living well.
Society =/= you.
Pragmatist Morality =/= Desirable.

>>4635146
>I'm not an elf sympathizer

That's just the sort of thing an elf would say. Men, gather the oil, we'll make a torch out of this one!

>>4635224

Alright, fair enough, I apologize to those religionfags who aren't unreasonable fucktards like Teacup. It was wrong of me to judge all of you by him.

>>4635188
You are doing it RIGHT NOW.

How dare I besmirch the honor of science. HOW DARE I SPEAK IN A WAY AS TO SUGGEST IT ISN'T ABSOLUTELY PERFECT AND WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING EVER. LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU SCIENCE ALONE WILL GRANT ME IMMORTALITY IN UTOPIA.

Crazy exaggerations aside, there are plenty of people that treat it more like a religion. Most people go on blind faith rather than bothering to understand what they are believing in. People that don't even know how electricity works. People who do not view a computer as more than some magic box that spits out fun(anyone in tech support will scream if you remind them of how many people think computers are magic).


More than that, they believe, blindly, that this thing called science that they don't even try to understand will provide them with everything they will ever need. They'll be shocked to find that no.. science can't wave a wand and fix everything.

They praise science and throw out EVERYTHING ELSE of worth in the world without a second thought to what they are putting their faith in.

OP here, why are you guys arguing about religion? I know this is 4Chan, but seriously, nobody here is convincing anybody of anything, there's not going to be any intellectual dialogue, and unless Ghandi magically comes back to life and logs in, there's not going to be any compromise, let it go.

>>4635238

Science has also given us a better quality of life. I dunno about you, but indoor plumbing and AC make ME happier.

>>4635257
>throw out EVERYTHING ELSE
Has anything else every achieved results?

>>4635257
we use science, we dont worship it. i for one have never seen anyone make a sacrifice to a computer

>>4635257
butthurt godfag

>>4635257
Hello Teacup, this is Ghandi. Yes, Mahatma Ghandi, of the India Ghandis. I would like you very much to think about what you are saying, and perhaps not grow so upset over things, you are obviously a passionate individual and this discussion has struck a raw nerve with you, but it is best sometimes to take a deep breath, get a glass of water, and allow your blood to cool so that you may attempt to debate things with a mind open to compromise. Satyagarah my friend.

>>4635292
It is essential that you read this in Apu's voice.

>>4635292
everytime ghandi got a glass of water to calm down he risked dysentery. he was a brave man

>>4635257
Before anyone calls me religious.

Hahahahaha.

That out of the way. I love science. I fucking love it, but I still recognize when people treat it as some god. A miracle that allows them to shed all personal thought or responsibility. People will do THE stupidest shit because of it. They don't bother to think They purposefully shut their brain off.

And no. I'm not saying science is LITERALLY a religion and our new god. I'm more saying we are just as full of as much superstitiousness, mysticism, and blind faith as ever. The fact that most people IGNORE the precise point of science.. in that you are supposed to think and observe for yourself.

It isn't a religion.. but that won't stop people from being religious about it.

>>4635306
i find that people who cant think for themselves are generally still religious not looking to science

>>4635257

You said something laughably, factually incorrect. Claiming that we're making a faith-based defense of it (necessary for your argument to hold any water) is entirely different from "you are demonstrably wrong, and here is why."

Science does not come with an attached morality or a code of laws. Science does not come with faith. People might not UNDERSTAND everything, but that does not mean they treat it like a religion, they do not associate some overwhelming demiurge with these manmade wonders.

You seem to have some real grudge against science. What is there to say it CAN'T fix everything? It can't now, sure, but it's not an unreasonable extrapolation that as our knowledge keeps growing, and our technological advancements keep speeding up, why CAN'T we fix the world's problems? We've already made several of them nigh-obsolete in most of the world, like women dying in childbirth.

I'm going to be blunt. You sound like a religionfag who is especially butthurt that people don't buy off on his ideology, and can't accept that people don't NEED a religious doctrine to treat each other decently.

That said, I don't think there's been a single thing you've been right about this whole argument. You were wrong about elves being physically superior and learning as fast as humans, your "LOL EVERYONE TRANSCEND" idea was shot down, and now you're being clobbered on this issue too.

Are you sure you're not Edward?

>>4635306
Hey, teacup. I don't think you are a bad person. You aren't a troll, your not a ass, you seem to be alright.

I, after seeing that, still have to say that I think you are a absolute idiot.

>>4635306
Now we are making progress. Gentlemen, I would urge you to consider Teacup's words, and accept that his position is valid. People do use "bad" science as a crutch at times to justify immoral actions, I would direct you to Hitler and his eugenic ideals. What Teacup is saying is that science can be bastardized just as easily as spirituality, and I agree that this is true.

>>4635291
See>>4635306

I did not once say SCIENCE R BADZ. I'm merely commenting on how people tend to willingly embrace stupidity. Even when they embrace a system where the whole point is giving you the tools to shed said stupidity.

Science marches on.

People never change. Some even worry we've hit our evolutionary wall, or maybe we just hit the limit of flesh.

>>4635318

A lot of people's lives wouldn't be different if you exchanged "science" and "magic" in their vocabulary.

>>4635292
You disowned your son (who then became a homeless wino) because he wanted to GET MARRIED!
Take your prudish, reactionary, hypocritical arse out of here.

Fucking Ghandi.

>>4635292
Hey Mahatma. Stop being racist.

>>4635306

Nobody has ever claimed science has absolved them of responsibility. Now you're just making things up. You're lashing out at an imaginary group. Then you go and hastily change your argument.

I'm gonna agree with >>4635319 in that you definitely sound like Edward.

>>4635328
I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed
- Ghandi, May 1940

>>4635332
>People never change.

I don't see us burning witches or believing in the concept of divine right. We've abolished slavery, too. Anything else you'd like to be wrong about, Elf-Boy?

I am truly sick of how people think "Science" is how stuff works.

It's not.

Stuff works because of causation and processes. Science is just the means by which we observe and discover them.

>>4635355

>I don't see us burning witches or believing in the concept of divine right.

Actually, that still happens a lot.

>>4635336
nobodies lives would be different... science would just now be called magic

not understanding how something you use works =/= religiously following it. people follow science because it benefits them not because they need something to believe in.

anyway my point was a bet theres a coloration between people registered on the census as religious and people who thing science = magic

>>4635351
The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs
- Ghandi, June 1946

>>4635318
Trust me. There are plenty of people who go YAY SCIENCE that are still stuck in their religious doctrine mindset.

But my ORIGINAL point was how this is precisely part of human nature. We're built to be religious wackos for some reason. Or maybe it is just a natural consequence of imagination. We're willing to embrace seemingly insane ideas. We'll convince ourselves they make perfect sense despite everything.

But oddly.. it is necessary for science too. How could we ever discover anything if we didn't think "what if we could do this?" so we could try to find out about how to do it. Also, embracing what seems insane also leads to discovery that the insane is the truth.

Okay I think I am getting off track here.

My point: People are fucked up. We can't help it.

>>4635351
>seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed
Ghandi praised Hitler for something he didn't realize was untrue. It's more an unfortunate lack of information than an oversight in moral judgment.
The majority of the Nazi party didn't know about the purge tactics and death camps even when the war ended.

>>4635306
Teacup, the difference between science and religion (apart from them being completely different) is that with science, if someone tries to bullshit you, there are methods to try and reason out if he's wrong or right by yourself.
Religion you can't verify, everything is on blind faith.

>>4635332
I did not once say SCIENCE R BADZ. I'm merely commenting on how people tend to willingly embrace stupidity. Even when they embrace a system where the whole point is giving you the tools to shed said stupidity.

Said people aren't embracing stupidity, they just (usually admittedly) don't know much about science. They simply treat many technological devices like things they don't quite understand. It's not faith when you see evidence that, yes, your air conditioner really WILL regulate your room's temperature and that your computer really CAN connect you to people across the world. Nobody is claiming science can save souls or that it needs human sacrifices.

Additionally, what gave you the idea that elves are physically superior? They're delicate little fucks.

>>4635355
Hey there. Atheist state based on the good of the people. Didn't stop the Soviets from starving and executing millions of their own. People haven't changed.

>>4635345
>Nobody has ever claimed science has absolved them of responsibility.

Nobody says it nor believes this.

It is a case of people ACTING this way though. They turn their own brain off because MIRACLE OF SCIENCE YAY. Science will save me. They make.. bad assumptions about the way things worth.. or don't bother finding out at all and plow onward.

It isn't a kind of organized group though.

>>4635351
Sure thats the opinion of him in 1940. Opinions can change especially when light of the holocaust comes attention.
>>4635375
Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs. As it is, they succumbed anyway in their millions.

* The Life of Mahatma Gandhi (1950) by Louis Fischer. The quote is in the the context of Gandhi's argument to his biographer that collective suicide would have been a heroic response that would have "aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence".
Lol misquote

>But my ORIGINAL point was how this is precisely part of human nature. We're built to be religious wackos for some reason. Or maybe it is just a natural consequence of imagination. We're willing to embrace seemingly insane ideas. We'll convince ourselves they make perfect sense despite everything.

An idiotic standpoint intended to camouflage your own views. Mankind is, at heart, reasonable. The wonders we've created attest to that. For every brainwashed fundie like you, there are people who actually paid attention in school.

Embracing insane ideas isn't sole province of religion, the difference is...science can make its insane ideas into REALITY.

>>4635391

You mean it didn't stop a corrupt fuckhead from starving and executing millions.

>>4635257
No I'm just doing what any person on 4chan should do when presented with some fuckhead who thinks that other people should respectfully consider and debate their wholly ignorant and moronic opinion that they hold on some nonissue. See even now you're trying to backpedal your fuckheaded statement and suggest that no, actually what you meant when you said "worship" and "religon" was that the common man views science as some sort of mystical force, which is STILL fucking stupid and ignorant if you live in the real world. So yeah, fuck off idiot.

>>4635378
yes yes yes.

I DO NOT BELIEVE SCIENCE IS AN ACTUAL RELIGON. SHEESH.

I was commenting that this won't stop a lot of people from treating it the same way though.

>>4635405
>Nobody says it nor believes this.

Oh? And then in your next line, YOU BACKPEDAL AND CHANGE YOUR ARGUMENT AGAIN!

>It is a case of people ACTING this way though. They turn their own brain off because MIRACLE OF SCIENCE YAY. Science will save me. They make.. bad assumptions about the way things worth.. or don't bother finding out at all and plow onward.

As already explained, this is wrong. They don't turn their brains off, they simply have focused on other shit. Not to mention, science actually CAN save them. You're fabricating a nonexistent group and focusing your ire on them in some massive bitch about humanity and how it should be this SUPER RELIGIOUS species.

Also, how the fuck are elves "physically superior"?

I would point out that spirituality is very similar to science, once stripped of its religious trappings. Bad science is just as dogmatic as bad religion, but that does not mean that either is the proper form of either, nor the normal form of either. Please do not be unreasonable, neither side is free of guilt. Yes, there are those who would use religion to improperly justify themselves in foolish thing, and they are doing it wrong. In the same vein, many use religion and its many intricacies and loopholes to justify themselves in doing great evil, and this is also wrong.

>>4635434

Except that, as has been demonstrated, they don't. Backpedal all you want, you're still downright wrong.

>>4635417
I personally think humans just need explanations. A Volcano erupts and wipes out a nearby village. Your people wonder why, decide that its a spirit inside the volcano who is angry. So you round up anyone who is violating local customs and throw them in, hoping if you do, he won't erupt. If he does anyway, they you have throw enough in. Stuff like that.

>>4635448

Yet science is based on facts, observances, if you want to make a claim you at least need those, even if it's wrong, whereas with religion all you need is a gut feeling.

>>4635448
Oh my, being dead for several decades seems to have slowed my wit, kindly change one of those Religions to Science, if you would.

>>4635463
It does that to the best of us.

>>4635461
Ah-hah, here is the problem, you are confusing religion with spirituality. With spirituality, you need a gut feeling, to analyze something that is unique to yourself and difficult to quantify. With religion, you simply read a book and believe what it tells you without thought. Spirituality is simply the science of the soul.

>>4635417
>For every brainwashed fundie like you

You've just.. invalidated everything you are trying to argue by proving you aren't even READING what I am saying. I've not once suggested religion is good or important. I've not once expressed any religious view. I have not once said science is bad. Science is good.

I'm commenting on an inbuilt part of human nature. Our ability to imagine (and accept blindly) crazy ass shit. Said ability to imagine CRAZY ASS SHIT is actually a core part of making science work. All of our greatest achievements started out as a wild idea someone decided to see if they could prove. Against what all logic or reason says is possible. Hell, the modern age of technology you can thank for all the crazy ideas on star treck. People grew up with it and decided "hey I want to make something that can ACTUALLY DO THAT".

Which is odd because it can also hurt progress too as in the case of religious wackos.

>>4635488
No, that's just him. The rest of us, Ghandi not included, just think you are an idiot. I would explain why, but I have had little sleep and it's 3am so I can't think well enough to do so.

>>4635482
So, given this, is it not reasonable to believe that science, if simply accepted without actually understanding it, is no better than a dogma? When a man of science makes a scientific claim, he does so knowing full well the factors that make it a realistic thesis rather than conjecture. When a true spiritualist makes a spiritual claim, he does so knowing as well as any human being can what he is saying. What our short-tempered Teacup is saying, in a roundabout way (and please do not misconstrue me to be saying that I agree with him on all of his points) is that some people believe in science without understanding it. These are the people who say that blacks are genetically inferior to whites. These are the people who propose that resonating crystals can cure mental disorders. These are the people who measured jewish noses and designed the ovens. These are evil men, but no more or less so than the inquisitor or the conquistador. Their motives were neither spiritual nor scientific, but political. Their "religion" was merely an excuse to act.

>>4635508
Enlighten me.

>>4635512
>short-tempered Teacup

Huh?

Do I really seem like I am angry? I'm just confused over how things got to this point. I make a rather simple statement and suddenly everyone jumps down my throat about how I must hate science and I'm a religious nut ball or something.

ALSO, I LIKE CAPS. IS THAT WRONG?

>>4635514
You should not keep the poor man up, Teacup. (dohoho, that rhymed.) I shall explain it in far less harsh words than they would have. What happened here was that you, struck by the passions of belief and anger, grew upset with some of the things being said, and took drastic argumentative action which set the tone for the rest of the argument. You said some things which were misunderstood, and misunderstood some things yourself. It is unfortunate when things come to a head like this, but alas, it is over and there is naught more to do but leave this sinking ship of a thread, and move on. It is unfortunate.

>>4635514
Look, right now I am so stupid with sleep deprivation that I am about capable of staring open mouthed at the screen and typing this with lots of thought. Stupid thought. It should be noted that no matter how stupid you are, you are smarter than I am right now.

>>4635541
Yes bed good idea, Im gone.

>>4635514
If I had to guess..

It has something to do with why I try to control myself and keep out of anything resembling something that takes any level of intelligence.

I can't translate my ideas into words successfully. It starts with one misunderstanding over what I am trying to say..

>>4635512
>Teacup is saying, in a roundabout way

..and just snowballs.

Honestly, I thought it was an innocent enough comment(that went ignored till many posts later). So people are willing to treat this stuff as dogma rather than trying to understand it. Was that such a mind blowing concept?

>>4635542
Then leave it to me, good sir, but please try to be less hurtful, he will listen to you better if you are kind.
>>4635534
I shall answer one more question before returning to my rest, what you must understand, friend Teacup, is that you made these people your opponents, instead of potential allies. They are just as guilty as you, because they do not want to engage you in a debate, they want to prove you wrong. You are guilty because instead of trying to understand their beliefs and incorporate your own into them, you made dramatic claims. Do you see? Debate is about finding common ground, and building upon it, you dug a trench between you and your opponents, and that made reasonable debate impossible. It is ok, though, I thought you made some very nice points, but you should recognize that they made some as well. Please, go read an improving book, perhaps one of mine, yes? It will do you well. Good evening Mr. Teacup, and all of you anonymous gentlemen out there.

>>4635570
>>4635542
IF I CAN'T SLEEP THEN NO ONE WILL.

Actually that sounds like a good idea. I forget silly things like sleep and food sometimes.

I'm curious about WHO in WHAT CASES treat science as a religion. Not once has an example been given (other than Hitler, but shit, I could get all Godwin's Law on a discussion about mounting your toilet paper correctly) of someone using science in a religious way.

This is a more interesting discussion that humans v. fantasy races, btw.

>>4635626
I'm not Ghandi, but I play him on /tg. I would direct you to biological determinism, which was used to justify manifest destiny and a few other atrocities. I would direct you to eugenics, which fully justified the sterilization of "inferior" peoples. What Ghandi was saying was that any time you use science or spirituality to justify doing something amoral, you are doing it wrong, and it becomes dogmatic. Teacup was using the word "Religion" in a way that he shouldn't have, but there isn't really a joint word for it. If you use X to justify Y without fully understanding X, you are guilty of dogmatism. Especially if you do not practice intellectual honesty. Hitler was a dogmatic racist, Stalin was a dogmatic communist, both used unsound principles to justify what they did. Science can be abused this way, but so can political ideals, spirituality, and any number of other things.

>>4635626
Godwyn's law doesn't apply if hitler is part of the subject material, incidentally. Hitler is a perfect example of this, he's like the father of voodoo-ized science.

I recognize those pictures. EDWARD, I SEE YOU!

Anyway, how are humans physically weaker than elves? This should be good for a laugh.