• The dice pools of changeling contracts are equal to Wyrd + Contract. The dice pools for court contracts are equal to Wyrd + Contract + Mantle. For goblin contracts, "Contract" equals the individual contract's dots.

• The dice pools of Benediction, Castigation, Goetic Gospels, Relic, Rites du Cheval, Rites of Denial, and Thaumatechnology endowments are equal to Endowment + 3. For Relics and Thaumatechnology, "Endowment" equals the individual endowment's dots.

• The dice pools of psychic powers are equal to Power + 3. "Power" equals the dots of the psychic's highest-level power in that power tree. A psychic with Mind Control ••••• rolls 8 dice for that power, as well as any other Telepathic power.

• Any time a power or innate ability would call for an Attribute alone, SA is used instead. Any time a power or innate ability would require Attribute + Attribute, Attribute + Skill, SA + Attribute, or SA + Skill, the roll instead uses SA + 3. A werewolf rolls Primal Urge + 3 to shift forms, a vampire rolls Blood Potency + 3 for the diablerie process, a sin-eater rolls Psyche + 3 + activation successes to use the powers of the Boneyard, and a sin-eater adds her Manipulation to her Defense through the Phantasmal Caul.

The benefits of this set of house rules are fourfold:

• It cuts out on nonsensical dice pools for powers. Why, exactly, does Mesmerize (Dominate ••) rely upon one's intellectual aptitude for music and prose (Intelligence + Expression + Dominate) rather than one's social ability (Presence or Manipulation) to persuade others (Persuasion) or understand their thoughts and emotions (Empathy)? More importantly, why is the entire Dominate discipline based on Intelligence and Wits, which are not the signature attributes of the Ventrue, but the Mekhet?

• It removes the need for characters to have high dots in the Attributes and Skills for their powers. A mage no longer needs to be Sherlock Holmes to use Space and Time rotes, most of which would require Investigation otherwise. Attributes and Skills remain the domain of how the player actually wishes the mundane capabilities of the character to be like, instead of serving as fuel for supernatural powers.

• It lessens powergaming and prevents "gimped" characters as well. No longer does the sin-eater with only Occult 1 (because her player did not see the character concept as involving being a scholarly occultist) possess much less dice for the Elemental Keys than the sin-eater with Occult 5 (because her player saw that the key skill for the Elemental Keys was Occult, and so distributed her Skills accordingly).

• It emphasizes Supernatural Advantage over mundane capabilities. It is a very expensive trait, costing new dots * 8 XP, and it should therefore provide much benefits. It is also more logical for the raw supernatural power level of a creature to serve as the foundation for the strength of her abilities, rather than just her earthly talents.

Any comments?

Wow, it's really like I don't give a shit what Touhoufag thinks.

rolled 12 = 12

>>5870514
But you care about what people think about what you think about what touhoufag thinks about?

>>5870540
And you care about what I think about what people think about what you think about what touhoufag thinks about?

Riveting tale, compatriot.

rolled 17 = 17

>>5870560
Yes, reading comprehension would allow you to understand that it was the purpose of the post.

>>5870575
Go back to bed, TF.

>>5870495
>>5870503
>>5870512

Addendum: +3 was chosen as the static modifier for usages of most supernatural powers, that is, those which rely on Attribute + Skill + Power, because it makes a character with a Supernatural Advantage of 1 roughly equivalent to a character with an Attribute of 2 (average) and a Skill of 2 (likewise average) under the old power system.

The original draft for this set of house rules used [Supernatural Advantage * 1.5, rounded down] + Power for most powers' dice pools, but it was felt that this produced pools far too low at beginning levels of Supernatural Advantage.

Nice work, I guess,

>>5870512
>It is also more logical for the raw supernatural power level of a creature to serve as the foundation for the strength of her abilities, rather than just her earthly talents.

No.

Who should be better at toying with someone's mind using magic, the smooth charmer or the awkward nerd?

>>5870770
The nerd, because he spends more time practicing rather than laying chicks by snapping his fingers.

>>5870780

How about the question is moot and both should be better?

I mean come on. BOTH are using magic.

>>5870770

Whichever one of them has more raw supernatural strength (Supernatural Advantage) and greater aptitude at using such a mind-influencing ability (Power), of course.

Under the default system in the nWoD books, you would have to figure out which Attribute and which Skill would be appropriate for such an ability. Is it a matter of knowing how to work the arcane weave of the cosmos just right (Intelligence + Occult)? Is it knowing exactly how one's physical brain functions (Intelligence + Medicine)? Is it being cognizant of the vagaries of thought and emotion (Intelligent + Empathy)? Is it knowing where the target's heart and mind lie at the current moment (Wits + Empathy)? Is it toying with someone's emotions ever so deftly (Manipulation + Empathy)? Is it crushing someone's will through brute force (Presence + Intimidation)? Is it using force of personality and charisma to persuade the target's psyche (Presence + Persuasion)? Is it tricking someone's mind into following your orders (Manipulation + Subterfuge)? Maybe even "stealing" one's free will (Manipulation + Larceny)? With all of these possibilities, it would be better to excise this tedious and unnecessary design process and simplify dice pools straight to one's supernatural nature and proficiency with a given power.

Nice work. I think this might make a difference in the WoD games I run, and certainly even things out a lot. Thanks very much!

>>5870715
>>5870881
Hi Touhoufag.

>>5870512
>More importantly, why is the entire Dominate discipline based on Intelligence and Wits, which are not the signature attributes of the Ventrue, but the Mekhet?

This is one of the things I hate about Requiem. IT'S THE FUCKING VENTRUE MIND CONTROL DISCIPLINE, WHY DON'T IT USE PRESENCE OR MANIPULATION, FFFFFFFFF.

>>5870851
Or you could stop being an asspie and use whichever you think is appropriate.

>>5871055
>I want to use my highest stats for the power's pool

This is what I'm reading.

I see this like this:

You did this because the previous set-up makes everything interlocking and as such to be good in a certain aspect requires you to be good in a sew of skills, attributes and powers. What you are doing makes character construction not only a lot more shallow, a lot more thoughtless but also gives you room to twink any character into new heights of munchkinism.

>>5871360

>You did this because the previous set-up makes everything interlocking and as such to be good in a certain aspect requires you to be good in a sew of skills, attributes and powers.
The manner in which it does so is often arbitrary, and it also turns Attributes and Skills into fuel for supernatural powers. Take the Boneyard manifestation, for example. The Cold Wind and Tear Stained Boneyards rely upon purely Wits + Occult, but then the Pyre-Flame Boneyard calls for Wits + Occult, Manipulation + Occult, and Resolve + Occult out of nowhere.

>What you are doing makes character construction not only a lot more shallow, a lot more thoughtless but also gives you room to twink any character into new heights of munchkinism.
On the contrary, this proposed system prevents powergaming and curbs optimization. Let us return to the example of the Boneyard. The natural munchkin, wishing to focus on the Cold Wind or Tear-Stained Boneyard will purchase Wits 4 and Occult 4 without a second thought, simply because that is what her main power calls for. This makes her all too powerful at using this particular Boneyard, and she hamfists the Wits 4 and Occult 4 into her character concept just because she wants a superlative dice pool. Meanwhile, the player with a character with Wits 2 and Occult 1, a character who is not quite a cunning and perceptive scholar of arcana and esoterica, using the Cold Wind or Tear-Stained Boneyard has a much lesser dice pool due to her Attributes and Skills not matching the ones White Wolf picked out as "appropriate" for her main power. Under this set of house rules, both of them would have equal dice pools should they possess equivalent dots in Psyche and Boneyard, thus evening the field.

reactionface.jpg

hurramicoolyet

Adslahnit, I told you that this was a retarded idea.

>>5871360
This. It serves no purpose but to break one of the greater things of the system for no reason other than petty munchkining.

>>5871439
>Let us return to the example of the Boneyard
The munchkin will use Boneyard with one of their Keystones, getting at least a +3 bonus. So at start, assuming the average in all stats, they'd be rolling 12 on their Boneyard. 3 from Wits, 3 from Occult, 3 from Boneyard, and 3 from the Keystone.
At that point it is very likely that they'll fail.

>The natural munchkin, wishing to focus on the Cold Wind or Tear-Stained Boneyard will purchase Wits 4 and Occult 4 without a second thought, simply because that is what her main power calls for. This makes her all too powerful at using this particular Boneyard, and she hamfists the Wits 4 and Occult 4 into her character concept just because she wants a superlative dice pool.
Is this 'her' you? Because this is where the ST comes in to say "no, that's stupid, get rid of that."
> Under this set of house rules, both of them would have equal dice pools should they possess equivalent dots in Psyche and Boneyard, thus evening the field.
Both would also be exactly the same, despite White Wolf's magic system saying that the person who's better at something naturally should be better at it when magic is added to the mix. You also treat it as if there's nothing but rampant minmaxing going on, as if the ST has no say in it.

I prefer the version without the bonus +3/+4, that's what I use myself.

>>5871495

More like it actually lets you put dots in useless things like Streetwise and Expression you would be otherwise spending in munchkin skills like Occult and Investigation.

>>5871495
I don't know, from what I know of WoD through my few half assed attempts to play the game with people all those powers are random. Go to another book and find a power that does the same thing but it'll use radically different pools. So why not standardize powers so people can actually make a character they want and have a power they want instead of having to shoehorn charters into powers?

>>5871360

The tl;dr version: How does it promote munchkinry when it lowers the dice pool of a powergamed character in most cases, and when it also lowers the amount of hamfisting that has to be done with Attributes and Skills, exactly?

>>5871503

I shall heed your advice, Tewi. I had intended on posting this approximately seven hours ago, but a combination of delays, typing it all up, and shoddy internet had pushed it back for a quarter of a day. Perhaps seventeen hours from now should do.

>>5871565

>The munchkin will use Boneyard with one of their Keystones, getting at least a +3 bonus. So at start, assuming the average in all stats, they'd be rolling 12 on their Boneyard. 3 from Wits, 3 from Occult, 3 from Boneyard, and 3 from the Keystone.
Munchkin: Wits 4, Occult 4 ("I'm a professional occult researcher and own my own bookstore."), Boneyard 3, Keystone 3. 14 dice.
Non-Munchkin: Wits 2, Occult 1 ("I know a little about ghosts, but I'm no Crowley of the Underworld), Boneyard 3, Keystone 3. 9 dice. There is still a difference of 5 dice because of this arbitrary designation of Attribute and Skill.

>Is this 'her' you? Because this is where the ST comes in to say "no, that's stupid, get rid of that."
Alternatively, this could be prevented by something that has been patched into the system mechanically.

>>5871565
>as if the ST has no say in it.
If we just relied on Game master or Story Tellers fixing systems we wouldn't have any new ones or just do free form at this point. Some people don't like the game being radically different based on the person running it having a hard on for one stat over another and changing power lists accordingly.

What the fuck is the point of image dumping anyway? Just sage. Like this. See?

>>5871609

I agree you should repost this when there are less retards around.

Sage fag while I agree that touhou fag is a min maxing whore let me ask you this.

Is it really that bad to let magic and such be governed by a magic stat? As it stands a lot of concepts are destroyed by only certain skills being allowed to be used for powers simply because the concept doesn't favor the pools used for the stat and you would have to pump up the advantage anyways to have a chance. So why not just cut out the middle man and make the advantage do more while allowing for more types of characters be played? As it stands the current set up only helps min maxers and hurts players who want powers and round out a character, a min maxer will take the few powers cross refrence them with other powers and min maxing starigies and let the rest go to hell. A regular player who wants a power that is outside of their concept will have to pay more points to bump up the attributes and skills to successfully use the power. The current restrictions are just hurting players who want to have a character concept that is not married to the attributes and skills the powers use while oddly enough not effecting the munckin. I say get rid of the extra shit and let the player make the character how they want and let the abilities be separate and functioning on their own.

>>5871693
It lowers the maximum image cap and makes the sage fag look as if their are more people doing it. More or less /b/ level antics to get a subject off the board they don't like. They would probably post gore too if they actually had balls as that would be a more effective version of this tactic.

>>5871567
>More like it actually lets you put dots in useless things like Streetwise and Expression you would be otherwise spending in munchkin skills like Occult and Investigation.
...
So you've never tried to track someone down, or get information from people? I'll admit that Contacts can do that stuff for you, but that doesn't make Streetwise useless.
Expression on the other hand is used in a lot of powers.
The game isn't just supposed to be whoever has the most dice. In fact, you really don't need more than a pool of about 8 or 9. After that you're just fishing for exceptional successes.
You want to talk about a Skill that's useless? No use whatsoever, powers or no? Politics. When has that ever been useful? I doubt it's even been useful in a Vampire game.

>>5871583
You don't have to shoehorn characters into powers. If anything, I find that I have to shoehorn powers into characters because they're all in suites. Then I end up with some completely out of character move from the first dot and what I want in the second.
With powers though, most of them are the same. Throughout the books Resolve+Stamina is often how you make fire, or at least it is if you're mortal. They change because what they accomplish and how they accomplish it is different.

A Changeling using Manipulation+Wyrd to summon fire is doing it by metaphysically finessing it the way he wants to. A mortal pyrokineticist is channeling her anger and trying to keep her body from being burned with Resolve+Stamina. A mage is like this, they actually do get their power straight from Arcanum+Gnosis, a raw power that's not of this world and uncontrollable. Once he can control it though, once he's mastered the mudras that create that divine lightning, then he instead uses Intelligence+Resolve (or something, I forget to be honest).

>>5871763
Which brings up another good reason why this is a retarded idea of a powergamer wanting to level the field and take Skills that don't just fit their concept, but make it so that they can powergame the Skills they want to cover more ground.
The Supernaturals aren't meant to be this powerful. Some are, some aren't. More than that, like this, it turns the game into a mad grab for Supernatural Advantage.
It also removes one of the better parts of WoD's magic system. That magic is actually based on varying things. Magic isn't just about who's stronger, it's about who's better. A mage that's a trackstar can practically FLY passed with the right rolls, while one who's been crippled and never walked would be like a snail compared to the first.
It's meant to be that way. It's meant for magic to be more than just who's smarter, or who has a bigger "MAGIC" stat.

>>5871763
>you really don't need more than a pool of about 8 or 9
Main problem, you have to min max to get to that point off the bat or else you are stuck around 2 to 5 if you didn't hunt down bonuses and such from the splat books like a munckin.

considering to get 4 to 5 points to at least be able to reasonably sneak in the points in your skill section you are completely unbalancing your primary attribute to what do a single action and maybe a few more attacked to that attribute you maxed/almost maxed later? Cause you sure as hell aren't going to be rolling enough dice from any other skills based on the other two attributes you just killed.

Can't we all agree that WoD is poorly designed shit and leave it alone with 3.5 for company?

>>5871609
You seem to assume that everyone is a munchkin.
And how is this arbitrary?
Occult is the key that unlocks the Elemental Boneyard.
Wits is used as perception.
Perception+Key Skill.
How is this arbitrary?

Likewise, what's the point of getting a high dice pool? It gets you nothing. You can do more damage on trying to freeze someone. Wow. You're in a Boneyard, you could kill them with 1 dot before they even find you.

You expect something 'keyed into the system' to 'fix' these things, except that how does your thing prevent anything? You can still have munchkins. You don't even make it harder, you make it easier.
This now lets you get away with anything you want. You no longer need to 'focus' to be good. You can take whatever powers you want. You'll be just as good with all of them. There won't be any variety, but now you only need to focus on getting two things up instead of many.
Like this you can also be free to minmax your character's Skills however you please. Don't even feign doing this for balance. The system before was balanced. You want it like this because you want to minmax your character and have a Social 5 little girl who somehow never talks to anyone.

You assume that every ST has to put up with these things, these blatant minmaxes. They don't. Because World of Darkness isn't a game meant for minmaxers. (that's not to say that you can't easily minmax, just that it's not the right game for that). Go play DnD, where people regularly powergame. Play some other game where you're encouraged to put all your points into only a few things.

>>5871778

I don't really play WoD, aside from a few one-offs and a KERAZY Mage: The Ascension game, so correct me if I'm wrong about this.

>It also removes one of the better parts of WoD's magic system. That magic is actually based on varying things. Magic isn't just about who's stronger, it's about who's better. A mage that's a trackstar can practically FLY passed with the right rolls, while one who's been crippled and never walked would be like a snail compared to the first.

Surely it shouldn't matter? When you're bending the laws of reality to launch yourself through the air without a care for forces or gravity, what does it matter if you can run a marathon or if you get tired running down the stairs?

I don't see where this system, that I've just skimmed over, is any less munchkin-y than a person fitting the character round a bizarre set of skills to get the most out of their powers.

>>5871853
>The system before was balanced.

>>5871853
>How is this arbitrary?
What does perception have to do with unlocking a boneyard?

It seems strange to me, Touhoufag, that you who more than anyone represents powergaming munchkinry, can at the same time have fairly decent ideas of roleplaying and fluff. The two always seemed mutually exclusive.

>>5871859

>>5871822
Three points into anything that you plan on being good in. That's 6 right there. It's incredibly easy to make the character you want, and even when I say "you only really need", I don't mean that you're going to fail if you don't, just that at about 9 you're pretty much guaranteed success. Well rounded characters do well in the World of Darkness. Better than munchkined ones, I'll say.

No matter how many dots you have in, say, Subterfuge, it won't do you any good if you need to deal with something that you can't speak to.
Likewise, what's Johnny Weaponry supposed to do when his trademarked crowbar to the face isn't going to work in a situation that requires more tact?

>>5871893
>The two always seemed mutually exclusive.
That's because you're an idiot.

>>5871893

>>5871763
>Throughout the books Resolve+Stamina is often how you make fire

>>5871906

>>5871853
>You're in a Boneyard, you could kill them with 1 dot before they even find you.

Are we reading the same copy of Geist here? Because the first dot is just the ability to spread your senses.

>>5871859
>Surely it shouldn't matter? When you're bending the laws of reality to launch yourself through the air without a care for forces or gravity, what does it matter if you can run a marathon or if you get tired running down the stairs?
Because while you're bending the laws of reality, you're doing so based on your actual ability to bend them. Within the Mage setting itself, the difference between Rotes and Improvised spells is that Rotes use Attribute+Skill to better control the Paradox, that's why Rotes are, what, Paradox -1?
It also means that the character can finally stop relying on whether or not he can chance a grasp at the Supernal and now knows how to make it flow through his own body.

>>5871859
nWoD is somewhat different. From what i've seen most powers are Stat+Skill+Power.

I think Touhoufag would like Dark Ages Mage from oWoD, magic works with Foundation (Arete/Gnosis more or less)+Pillar (Sphere/Arcana).

I agree that some skill and stat choices seem rather arbitrary (and oWoD had plenty of that, at least in Vampire), though i think using a stat instead of that flat +3 could work too.

I was actually working on a revamp of the oWoD disciplines and came up with a table of the "generic" disciplines and which attribute should govern them (though as with most of my projects it ended up unfinished. If anybody cares, this is what i came up with:

Strength Potence
Dexterity Celerity
Stamina Fortitude

Perception Auspex
Inteligence Blood Magic
Wits Obfuscate

Charisma Animalism
Manipulation Dominate
Appearance Presence

>>5871906
>I don't understand dicepool math only the times I can remember succeeding as I forgot all the times I failed.
It's alright most people don't.

>>5871973
>>5871965

>>5871965
I'm not a fan of that, though that might be because i prefer Ascension. Are you doing magic? Yes? Then what the fuck does your Dexterity+Athletics have to do with it?

I'd guess it was to save rolls. You could roll for a spell to enhance your speed then roll normally with a suitable bonus. They decided they'd rather mix the rolls so you'd only roll once.

As i said i'm not a fan, but if you value having to roll less enough, i guess it's a good alternative.

>Touhoufag
>Houserules

>>5872061
For fluff I'd avoid touhou fags, but for crunch I'll leave an ear open, after all they deconstruct the system in an asspie manner to figure out how to best use it. They don't want an easily broken or able to readily do weird things without any effort as that is boring.

>>5871958
I meant rolling one die. Pretend they've got a lot of penalties on them.
>>5871933
>Firebolt
Dexterity+Athletics is throwing things. I'll admit that at first I didn't understand it until someone showed me a few Exalted powers that relied on it. This was for the Elemental Bolt Charm, not Firebolt, though. They're throwing fire. It even says that in the flavor text.
>Control Fire
I'm going to assume that you're not contesting the Occult or Science part. One of which relies on a magical understanding of fire, the other a scientific one.
Presence though, well I wouldn't have used it for that one, but Presence is still a Fire associated attribute. Here it represents a character's ability to impose himself on the flame. Again, I wouldn't have gone with that.
>Pyrokinesis
Could have sworn Stamina+Resolve started it, and that Wits+Resolve was a different move.
Well, Wit is your ability to think and react quickly, just like Fire. That's why Flameheart Elemental Changelings get a bonus to Wits. Resolve, as I've mentioned before, is a character's ability to persevere, and more importantly, it's their ability to force themselves into doing things. It's the most fiery attribute of the nine.

>>5871995

What the fuck is wrong with you newfags?

Why are you bombing a thread with shit for no reason?

>>5871763
>Expression on the other hand is used in a lot of powers.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE CURRENT SYSTEM SUCKS.
WHEN STATS AND SKILLS DEVOLVE INTO FUEL FOR MAGIC SHIT.

>>5872091
>Dexterity+Athletics is throwing things. I'll admit that at first I didn't understand it until someone showed me a few Exalted powers that relied on it. This was for the Elemental Bolt Charm, not Firebolt, though. They're throwing fire. It even says that in the flavor text.
So could you just burn someone to a crisp standing next to you as you can obviously create fire with no problem?

>>5872110
>no reason

>>5872091
>Hellfire
I have no clue why Intelligence is thematic to the Lucifuge. I would have gone with Resolve, to symbolize how it's something more atavistic that allows them to tap into their infernal abilities, something primal and burning, like the desire and power that Resolve can represent. I'm actually trying to get through this whole thing without referencing Kamina when talking about Resolve. Here I fail.
But, to the question at hand, I'd assume that Dexterity is for guiding their power, and Intelligence is their fortitude of mind to control that atavistic power that they hold.
>Pyre-Flame Boneyard
I've explained Resolve quite well already. As for Occult, I suppose you don't understand why it's the Key Skill for the Elemental Keys? Well, the four Elemental Keys are heavy in symbolism, and symbolism is the Occult. By knowing about the Occult a character can better tap into that symbolism: The heat of the crematorium, the grief of a crying lover, the weight of the grave, and the bitter cold of loneliness.
Admittedly, I'd have given the four of them different Key Skills, but Geist lumps them together well enough.
>Battlebright
I have no clue why a move that involves shining your brilliant glory to blind an opponent would involve Presence.
None at all. Presence for presenting your blinding glory to blind someone is just stupid.

They all use different pools, sure, but how does that make them arbitrary? It would only be arbitrary if they didn't relate at all. Most of these use pools that fit in with their subsystem's other powers much better than they do from taking all fire abilities and saying "lets compare vastly different powers to each other". They work differently. How is it any stranger than 4e? Do you find it odd that one power for mind control uses Intelligence while another uses Wisdom and yet another relies on Charisma? Do you find it odd when one power that makes fire uses Wisdom while another uses Constitution?

>>5872110
Touhoufags are pedophiles that need to die, his worlds are worthless as they are feeble pleas to let him exist. Let their threads fall on deaf ears or be destroyed by spam so that they sink to the bottom like their bodies in a lake if this were a just world.

>>5872128
>I've explained Resolve quite well already. As for Occult, I suppose you don't understand why it's the Key Skill for the Elemental Keys? Well, the four Elemental Keys are heavy in symbolism, and symbolism is the Occult. By knowing about the Occult a character can better tap into that symbolism: The heat of the crematorium, the grief of a crying lover, the weight of the grave, and the bitter cold of loneliness.
Admittedly, I'd have given the four of them different Key Skills, but Geist lumps them together well enough.

Can I not use my rocket science and knowledge of combustion to use Int + Science for it? Maybe throw fire with Dex + Athletics, like you always say? Oh that's right, WW is shoving their stupid dice pool combinations down my through.

>>5872143
>derp I am a faggot

>>5872143
Forgot your sage, brah.

>>5872153
sages do nothing, Bumping hastens the death of this vile thread.

>>5871974
>I don't understand anything
I remember the times I've failed. At 6 dice, you're not likely to fail every time. In fact, you have a very good chance of succeeding. Not as good as 9 though. At about 9 dice, you're not likely to fail, and your pool can stand a few penalties.
>>5872086
Except that this is easily broken. This is even easier to break, actually.
Meanwhile, it also completely ignores parts of the system that don't need to be 'fixed'.
It's like saying that you don't like your arm because it doesn't work, and then cutting it off to put on a spoon.
>>5872116
When I say a lot, I mean it's used for a variety of powers, not that every supernatural should take tons of Expression dots to do anything. Each one has about one or two powers that use Expression.
>>5872118
If you're a mage, yeah.

>>5872143

>>5872165
Sages count against the post count without bumping the thread, you moron.

I would say I didn't know why people were idiots and thought sage doesn't count against post limit, but I know it's because /b/tards convinced everyone that was the case. It's not. Sage counts against total post limit.

>>5872175
>Except that this is easily broken. This is even easier to break, actually.

I dunno. Putting your dots around just right and raising stats and skills leads to things breaking fast. Not so much when it's based off your Gnosis/Blood Potency/Azoth/Voodoopower.

>>5872165
Let me follow up actually. While this thread blights the board I will not get a polite say that doesn't' bump or count towards the final limit. It has been said a dozen times sage does nothing. Instead of just being content to sage and images that only destroy touhoufags precious girl avatars I'll reduce his ability to give his message, the only thing he really cares to give. That is why the pervert posted in the first place. No I will not be content on minor reduction with others still able to reply, he will only get my resolve to cast him down into the dirt and filth as he deserves.

Sage does nothing.

>>5872198
So you're just a threadshitter.

You're just as bad as Jim Profit.

>>5872178
Stop using Brooker to defend the pedo, you nonce.

>>5872210
>>5872198
If it does nothing, why do sages count when the thread hits 250 and starts autosaging, hmn?

Evidence proves this statement correct.

>>5872210
Are you sure Moot said that because it takes about two seconds to bump a thread or make a new thread with the same content, not because sage doesn't actually do anything?

>>5872215
Jim profit is a troll who starts threads for no reason to stroke his ego. I shit on a pedophiles thread because he is a pedophile, I could care less about how much attention I get, just as long as he's driven away from here. Actually I hope I hit a nerve somewhere that gives him enough insight to put a gun to his head but that's far too much hope in him having some humanity left.

>>5871837
>>5871872
>>5871892
>>5871966

Wow, I feel like an idiot - I only just noticed the similarity to Deadpool.

Hmm, something on topic... Ah! - there's a project going on to rework the mechanics of WoD using SR - because lets face it, Shadowrun has a similar dicepool system but it actually works and patching leaky rules is never going to be as good or easy as fixing the core problem.

I haven't been following it, but it looks good - the first couple of pages are mostly concerned with sorting out the fluff so it doesn't get all crazy inconsistent like OWoD was or NWoD is getting.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49857&sid=3b14dae5a5a53bf5637c23af7360eea3

>>5872146
>WW is shoving their dicepool combinations down my throat
Are... seriously... you...?
You just went full retard.

The company that made the game, who... you know, they made the game. They came up with it's rules. You... you understand this, right?
So... what you're saying... is that the people who made the game, the game you... well, you probably didn't pay money for it, but the game you play, you at least went through the trouble of downloading it, right?
The game that you downloaded... and the people who made it, you say they're... they're what? Explain this to me? They're shoving... the rules of the game.... down your throat.
Do I have this right...?

You're saying that... White Wolf... the game's designers... are shoving the rules... the rules of the game that you chose to play... down your throat.
Now... you knew the magic worked this way... right...? You, you knew that it wasn't just like DnD magic, right...? You at least had some inkling as to how the system... the system you downloaded... works, right?

And... what you're telling me is that... White Wolf, the people who made the system... are shoving the system's mechanics... down your throat...?
I'm... I'm a little confused here...

>>5872245
How do you know he's a pedophile?

Honestly, I'm curious.

>>5871880
>What does my character's ability to perceive things have to do with a skill that extends my character's perception.
Nothing at all. I have no clue why they chose Wits.

>>5872146
>Maybe throw fire with Dex + Athletics, like you always say?
How does the physical momentum of your hand throw fire? Its just heated gas, you would have more luck throwing shredded dry confetti more then a foot.

>>5872259
You don't know shit about how White Wolf games work.

Go look at the system for once instead of threadshitting.

>>5872259
They are. Is that so hard to understand?

Instead of some sensible rules for magic powers, like ones that use the stat which is supposed to be how well I use magic, I get asinine combinations of stats and skills. The game's not perfect, why not houserule it a bit?

>>5872245
No, Jim Profit posted in threads to shit them up. You're a faggot just like him.

>>5872268
Just like how the rote for SCRYING uses Intelligence, right? You know, Scrying? Seeing things from afar?

>>5872264
He posts little girls, why should any grown well adjusted man have little girl pictures on their computer? Even more so this touhou fag regularly plays as little girls in his games. This is already two strikes. The third is the one that proves it, he has a tendency to do sexual things with them or at least allude to it. I have heard the stories and it adds up quite well.

>>5872297
I don't know why they aren't using presence, after all it's your senses being projected and you affecting an area!

>>5872298

>The third is the one that proves it, he has a tendency to do sexual things with them or at least allude to it. I have heard the stories and it adds up quite well.

Post proof then, if you are going to make such claims.

>>5872298
>he has a tendency to do sexual things with them or at least allude to it.

He does/he has? This is news to me.

>>5872298
.....you know, your crusade against Touhou is kind of ridiculous when you have an entire boardful of pedophile invading /tg/ in the form of /b/ posts out the ass.

>>5872298

>he has a tendency to do sexual things with them

lol no

>>5872298
Your logic is shitty beyond repair.

>>5872189
>I would say I didn't know why people were idiots and thought sage doesn't count against post limit,
Because someone actually asked Moot, and Moot said sage does nothing. Your sage is only counted once against the post count.
>>5872190
Means you only have to get one stat up, instead of 24. Well, 22. Academics and Politics are useless.

Powerstat costs more, but in the long run it's less than buying up Skills.

Oh hai. Don't mind me, just gonna post pictures of little girls.

>>5872298
>He posts little girls, why should any grown well adjusted man have little girl pictures on their computer?

He's not a grown man, bro.

>>5872210
>>5872230
>>5872231

For fuck's sake you're all retarded as hell.

http://www.4chan.org/faq#sage

>>5872340
Nothing could go possibly wrong with that!

>>5872329
>Powerstat costs more, but in the long run it's less than buying up Skills.
True but originally formula is attribute too and those aren't cheap along with the power stat.

>>5872329
But minmaxing favors the system where you can buy three different things (in particular WoD helps this since each level costs more than the last).

Yep. Just little girls. Nothing like a MILF or anything like that in my touhou.

>>5872329
Yes......and my second sage is also counted against the post count. So is the third. Just like all of your posts are counted against the post count. the difference is, I'm not bumping your retardation up the front page.

What is the point of old women when you got lolis? It's not like there's such a thing as a girl above their teens in these things.

The only thing sage does is to keep the thread from bumping.

>>5872274
That's what the Forces part is for.
Dexterity+Athletics+THE ABILITY TO MAKE FIRE.
>>5872276
You're an idiot.
>>5872280
It sounds reasonable to me. My ability to manipulate people without magic should translate to bettering my ability to manipulate people with magic.
>>5872305
The designers decided that Wits better fit both the mechanics and fluff of the power. That's why they do that for everything. The reason that Scrying uses Intelligence is the same reason that a lot of Mage Spells use Intelligence. Because Intelligence is an attribute that fits with the theme of Mage, just like Manipulation fits with Changeling.

>>5872356
In the begining you min max your main stats as it's cheaper then any other time. In fact it's commonly the only way to have high stats is to min max in the beginning as you will rarely get enough experience over the course of the game to raise anything from 1 to 3. In effect the game doesn't favor character growth but minmaxing.

>>5872371
.....when this gets to 250 posts, it will autosage, and sage posts count towards that limit.

Boy you people are thick.

>>5872376
Then why are you throwing the fire if you're using mystical forces?

Indeed, the only reason I have such pics MUST be to fap to them, and not because they come from an easily adaptable setting that many people have dabbled with in their RPGs, either the characters or maybe a bit more, often in D&D and DH.

Very clever rulemaking, OP.

For what it's worth, I approve.

>>5872298
>How do you know he's a faggot?
>He posts musclebound men. Why should any grown well adjusted man have muscled men pictures on their computer? Even more so this spacemarine fag regularly plays as Space Marines in his games. This is already two strikes. The third is the one that proves it, he has a tendency to do sexual things with them or at least allude to it. I have heard the stories and it adds up quite well.

>>5872365
No, only the first counts.
>>5872354
I don't see why. If I only cared about getting stronger, I'd want only one ability that I had to focus on.

I mean, I really doubt that in proposing this idea Touhoufag would use it to spread out his skills. He's going to use it for putting all his eggs in one basket knowing they'll hatch.

>>5872376
>The designers decided that Wits better fit both the mechanics and fluff of the power. That's why they do that for everything. The reason that Scrying uses Intelligence is the same reason that a lot of Mage Spells use Intelligence. Because Intelligence is an attribute that fits with the theme of Mage, just like Manipulation fits with Changeling.
I really wonder why White wolf just doesn't' fucking make it class based. You have to play by their rules on what this supernatural should be anyways so why give players the illusion they can have a dumb mage or a non socialite changling.

>>5872383
The system grants more points for roleplaying. It also leaves people who minmax with nothing to do, because they've got no points in anything but what they're good at, while other people have points in a well rounded smattering of subjects.

>>5872404

Oh, and I'd like to say, even though I don't normally play those RPGs you post advice for, I admire your efforts in attempting to make this a better board one post at a time.

>>5872427
Wouldn't you get more role playing points for struggling with situations?

>>5872416
It is class based. That's why the systems are divided into 5 (6 in the case of Changelings) groups, each with their own drawbacks and bonuses, and each with Favoured powers.

>You have to play by their rules on what this supernatural should be anyways so why give players the illusion they can have a dumb mage
Well, while overall Mages are supposed to be smart, it's not anything near impossible to play a dumb one. Though with the way that magic works, you at least have to have imagination.
>or a non socialite changeling.
Summer Court.

>>5872454
So why are they dressing it up as a point buy system? As it is only people who know the system inside and out and min max to get their powers to work.

>>5872448
You'd think, but that implies that people who minmax can roleplay.
If you hamfistedly say that your weak, pitiful librarian goes to the gun range on her lunch breaks, and that that's why she has enough skill with a pistol to rival a SWAT officer, then you're likely not going to be capable of actually roleplaying a character. Otherwise you would have chosen to not make your librarian who has trouble climbing the stairs into the kind of person who could outshoot Wild Bill.

>>5872440
>even though I don't normally play those RPGs you post advice for

Then what do you play? Are you one of those fags who comes here just for the Touhou?

>>5872467
Not really. Most of the powers are pretty simple, and as long as you know "I want to do this with my character", there's probably a power that can let your character do something with what they're good at.

Unless it's Politics, but if you put points into Politics you're an idiot anyway.

You don't have to know the system inside and out, you just have to... read it.

>>5872467
What the fuck are you even babbling about now?
You don't need to min-max anything to get a decently working character. And min-maxing brings more harm to you than anything else. And how is a system where you buy stuff with points not point buy?

>>5872493
>Stormwind fallacy
Ah we meet again. If that were true no roleplayer could actually use a roleplaying system to make their character as it would require some optimization.

>>5872505

My use for Politics is for when the players want to gain near meta-insight into what is going on behind the scene of the various factions and their interaction.

Still not very useful unless your life/success depends on that knowledge.

>>5872505
>Most of the powers are pretty simple, and as long as you know "I want to do this with my character", there's probably a power that can let your character do something with what they're good at.

I'm a newbie to Vampire. I make a Ventrue. I give him awesome Resolve and Presence because that's what Ventrue are known for, plus Dominate. The game fucks me over by making Dominate work off Intelligence and Wits, which I only have 2 dots each in.

The fuck is this supposed to be good game design?

>>5872440
I'm not Touhoufag. He left quite some time ago.

I'm just trolling the antiTouhoufag.

>>5872506
>And how is a system where you buy stuff with points not point buy?
Technically class based systems should be point buy under the hood but rarely are explained as such. They offer you the parts smile and say "guess how you should make your character" as if they already had a predetermined one. There are many ways to fail making a character when the designers think this way.

>>5872528
Because you are a retard and have to make your character reflect your powers and buy stats accordingly.

And no your idea of how it should work is stupid, as you can't actually play it. See how it's good design?

>>5872500

Nah, I dabble a bit in Paranoia, and looking into Little Fears. Also that mech game that Silicon God has been doing, I'm waiting for him to update some more before screwing around with that. Did a bit of D&D, but the group split a lil while ago because of the end of HS and everyone heading off to different colleges.

>>5872536

I see. Excuse my mistake, then.

>>5872555
Show me where it says that Ventrue should have good Intelligence and Wits because they're what Dominate uses.

Go on.

....I wonder why I can't make wits or intelligence a primare attribute set....OH WAIT I CAN.

What a silly argument.

>>5872519
No no, I'm saying that when you cobble something together that looks like no thought was put into it, and any semblance of a reasonable character was made afterwards, then you're not likely to be able to roleplay.
But the Stormwind Fallacy would also imply that just because someone makes a Mary Sue with glittering skin and eyes that change colour that they can still be a good roleplayer.
>>5872528
Why does one bad example seem to be all you people cling to? I honestly don't give a flying shit about Vampire, stop bringing it up.
But again, this is where reading comprehension comes into play. If you want to know more about Dominate, and think that's something you're interested in, you flip to the part of the book with "Dominate" listed, and you read into what it does. Then you see that, oh, "maybe I should put some more points into Intelligence".
Though if you ask me, Ventrue should have Intelligence as their clan attributes. They strike me as the type of people to use Dominate as an alternative solution to a problem. Why strip someone of their free will when you're just one Xanatos Gambit from making them do what you want anyway?
But, if Ventrue are Presence Resolve, what are Daeva? I thought they were Presence Composure.

>>5872562
No worries!

On a totally unrelated note, some absolute bastard has put this page on sup/tg/.

>>5872588
>Though they also value Mental Attributes and Skills
Also in the part of the book where Dominate uses those, and Dominate is the Ventrue clan Discipline.
Again, if you're just throwing things at a wall, why bother anyway?
You also make it out that you can only do the character creation IN ORDER FROM START TO FINISH, NO TWEAKING.

>>5872615

Don't worry. The admin/mod/whomever there will annihilate it like the wrath of an angry god.

>>5872528
It's not their fault you didn't read the game.
It's not like there aren't, what, ten other things to choose from anyway, and three of them also from your clan.

>>5872633
I'm saying that it's pretty easy for a lot of new players to be led into the trap of not taking good Intelligence and Wits for a user of Dominate because they don't explain it well enough.

So yeah, the game's telling you to play smart alecks if you want to use Dominate. How is this supposed to promote roleplay better?

God damn /tg/ is really shit today...

>>5872666
How does it have any effect on roleplaying?
Ventrue are supposed to be slick and brilliant.

The only reason someone would be stuck playing a character like this is if he didn't actually read anything.


On another note, do you suffer an unskilled penalty for powers?

>>5872666
Dominate is the art of placing suggestions in the mind of your target not all out mind control based on your... what personal charm. A good Dominate user would still want to be a sociable person for when he can't use his power.

>>5872693
>>5872704
So why isn't Dominate based off Presence or Manipulation?

>>5872688
ayup.

On the one hand, I wouldn't mind actually discussing this idea and the extreme distaste it leaves in my mouth, and on the other, I think I should stop looking at this thread. While I don't agree with it and think it's a bad idea that breaks things that don't need to be broken just to say you've fixed them, I really don't see why people are saging the thread.

>>5872604
>Why does one bad example seem to be all you people cling to?
>anyone who disagrees with me is a mary sue maker.

>>5872704
Actually Dominate works off of Intelligence, Wits, Intimidate, and something else I forget.
It's basically reliant on Mental Attributes and Social Skills.

It's also apparently the only example like this, since NO ONE seems to have any better examples that would require books I actually have/care about.

>>5872711
Why would it? It's a frankly quite blunt ability that has nothing to do with your personality. Would you expect swinging a hammer to benefit from dexterity?

>>5872711
Because that would be stupid and not make sense, it's based off what white wolf thought it would be based off at the time!

>>5872715
Don't worry about it, he'll repost this thread in a few hours or so when this has all died down.

>>5872723
I didn't say anyone who disagreed with me was a Mary Sue.

I said a clumsy librarian who could shoot better than a SWAT squad leader because she went to the gun range for 30 minutes a day was a Mary Sue.

Ok people listen up your bullshit arguments on how a power should work is just as valid as white wolfs. They make sense and changed just a bit from "throwing a fire ball" using athletics+dex to "projecting a fireball" using presence+occult is just as valid.

>>5872329
>Means you only have to get one stat up, instead of 24. Well, 22. Academics and Politics are useless.

>Powerstat costs more, but in the long run it's less than buying up Skills.

This also means a guy who wants to make someone good at, say, a single power will need to have a guy crippled in basically everything else. Which means you'll get people who focus on having powers and people who focus on having anything else. Most people will focus on powers since these are more like the "cheat code" for accomplishing what you want.

It tended to work out like this in Trinity, which was in fact an ST system of the "roll/use powerstat" design.

>>5872728
>The people who made the game did a bad job. I think I'll complain and break things instead of actually fixing them!
Then why not just change it so that Dominate works off of Presence or Resolve instead of breaking everyone's toys and making them use >>5870512 >>5870503 >>5870495 these?

Also, I should note that he only actually plays Hunter, so his thoughts on the system are from the point of view of someone who's only looked at the mechanics of the powers and nothing more.
>• It cuts out on nonsensical dice pools for powers. Why, exactly, does Mesmerize (Dominate ••) rely upon one's intellectual aptitude for music and prose (Intelligence + Expression + Dominate)
What do you think is Mesmerizing them?
>• It lessens powergaming and prevents "gimped" characters as well. No longer does the sin-eater with only Occult 1 (because her player did not see the character concept as involving being a scholarly occultist)
If you're a Sin-Eater who starts out with no Occult dots, then you aren't going to last long, considering Occult is one of the skills that the game relies on heavily. You're dealing with ghosts. It would be like playing a politician that doesn't have Politics (I of course use that knowing that Politics is useless for anyone else)

>>5872768
Exactly. In the end is cripples the system by catering to the style of play that Touhoufag prefers.

>>5872746
How about a police officer who works mostly in paperwork but is still a good shot? Is that a better scenario where someone could be good at shooting things AND have resources in bookwork?

Does that count as better roleplaying while minmaxing?

I see what you did there Tohoufag, trying to use the "roleplay not rollplay" idea to hide your aims.

This thread is bad and Tohoufag's rules only serve to allow better cherry-picking of good abilities while saving points to truly min-max.

i.e.: Sinking points into Weaponry, Firearms, Brawl, specialties, and the useful social skills, while still being able to buy the good shit; making a character that exceeds the mark on all respects via dumping the rest of his points into SAs and useful Merits.

White Wolf, you can make a character but you better make it fit white wolfs idea of how your character should be made.

>>5872811
A police officer who's trained to be a good shot and can't keep his job unless he's a good shot? Yes. Though if he does nothing but paperwork he shouldn't have but 2 dots in it, unless he's training to advance, or he's Da Chief and used to be a crack shot.
As for whether it's more believable for minmaxing? Yes. As a cop, he's going to have to train at it to keep his job, and he's not going to only do it during his lunch break.

Also, cops in the corebook only have Firearms 3.

>>5872840
>PAY ATTENTION TO ME DAMMIT

>>5872853
This is the single dumbest comment in this thread. Have you even played a White Wolf game?

>>5872856
I begin to see the problem. Setting up a minmaxed character would suggest developing a character's stats before getting in mind a personality and background for that character, thus potentially breaking disbelief behind why a librarian has sharpshooter skills.

However, an easy way around this is to choose a background/personality first, THEN minmax the fuck out of the system using traits and skills relevant to character design. Would that be a suitable way to have characters with skills relevant to their backgrounds while being hugely optimised?

>>5872789
>What do you think is Mesmerizing them?

A) How well I can write books and play music.
B) How well I can talk to and persuade people.

Which of these fits a mind control power better?

>>5872800
>Exactly. In the end is cripples the system by catering to the style of play that Touhoufag prefers.
In fact, I've just proven part of one of touhoufag's statement to be false:

>>5870512
>• It lessens powergaming and prevents "gimped" characters as well. No longer does the sin-eater with only Occult 1 (because her player did not see the character concept as involving being a scholarly occultist) possess much less dice for the Elemental Keys than the sin-eater with Occult 5 (because her player saw that the key skill for the Elemental Keys was Occult, and so distributed her Skills accordingly).

In fact, the Sin-Eater with occult 5 is now gimped in one way (occult turns into more of a useless skill than it was before, when at least some powers depended on it), but the one which suffers the most from it is the one who has occult 1 - because more points are poured into the power stat.

We should also consider the implication that just because something is expensive it should provide a significant benefit (last statement). If Touhoufag wanted to fix the system like this, the power stat shouldn't cost much more than an attribute. If everyone needs it to be able to be useful for anything as a supernatural creature, it seems reasonable that it shouldn't be restrictive. Of course, this creates a class-based system based on clans/etc, where everyone powergaming specializes in their powers since those always trump abilities. Neat for teamwork, but people already did that kind of thing while having some overlap.

>>5872887
I just told you that it's not even believable for a cop to have 4 in Firearms.
In fact, I have a house rule that I don't let any characters start out with more than 3 in a Skill, and generally, if someone does have 3 in a Skill, I'll ask them to give me a reason for it.
This is actually something that the corebook says for STs to do. In fact, every ST, GM, DM, or other should look at their player's sheets and go over things and okay it if it's fine, and if not to ask for clarification or for changes.

For instance, getting Athletics 3 means your character is athletic. Getting Medicine 3 means your character is a doctor.

>>5872900
C)How well I express myself and make people pay attention to what I'm saying/doing.

Motherfucker, is this shitpiece still going?

>>5872913

>In fact, the Sin-Eater with occult 5 is now gimped in one way (occult turns into more of a useless skill than it was before, when at least some powers depended on it)

Wrong. Occult is THE single most useful mental skill in nWoD from a purely mundane standpoint. You're also wrong because the player in the example picked Occult 5 only because it was what the power used, so with these houserules, the player would consider doing something else with the skill dots.

>>5872913
>but the one which suffers the most from it is the one who has occult 1 - because more points are poured into the power stat.

How... how is Occult 1 making "more points poured into the power stat?"

>>5872900
How well you can dazzle people. Which is what Expression would cover.

>>5872913
All in all, the whole thing is based on a faulty premise and serves as nothing more than one more way to minmax.

I mean, doing this does nothing but turn the system into the same game of rocket launcher tag that Mutants and Masterminds is. It completely strips away the usefulness of Skills and places everything onto a single stat. Once a character gets a template, they now no longer need Skills. This greatly damages the system, since being Skills based is what it's made from. It's supposed to be a system where you rely on both your Attribute and your Skill and the wide variety of combinations of both, but instead it turns it into just a game where you only need to care about powers and ranks.

>>5872935
>>5872992
Again, how does your persuasiveness and your charisma not matter at all for Mesmerize?

>>5872942
How is Occult the single most important? It isn't. None are.
And what if his concept was actually to be an occultist, and powers didn't factor into it? The guy should be powerful at it since he just stumbled in from a Call of Cthulhu game, but instead he's left sitting here thinking "wait, so I can't do magic better even though I could write a thesis paper on it, but Johnny Prodigy here can make reality suck his dick but couldn't understand symbolism if you showed him a dictionary?"

>>5872992

>It completely strips away the usefulness of Skills

Hokay, remember what mortals used skills for? Doing mundane tasks, like researching or firing a gun or lying to someone? Those are what skills for as a supernatural being. Your MUNDANE talents.

>>5873007
Because it's not a power that relies on your Presence, it relies on how well you can dazzle someone. If anything, it would be Manipulation, so your entire argument is retarded, pedantic, and wrong.

>>5873022
>And what if his concept was actually to be an occultist, and powers didn't factor into it?

Then he's just as well off as the guy who picked Academics 5 or Science 5, instead of being Mr. My Dice Pool is Enormous. He is not gimped at all. Everyone is put on equal footing.

>>5873028
Yeah, I can make people do what I want with my mind.
Why am I going to bother small talking the cop to make him stop writing the ticket?

>>5872942
>Wrong. Occult is THE single most useful mental skill in nWoD from a purely mundane standpoint.
Wait, what did you do with occult again? I can't recall it having more than limited mention in the core.

However, I'd focus more on the second half here - supernatural abilities now trump mundane abilities, which become effectively useless. See also:
>>5872992

Though I'll admit I spoke out in haste on the ability distribution here. The original example is flawed - no one but the world's most premier legendary occultists would have 5, and it costs more than you gain from it originally (there's still a penalty for having abilities higher than 3 in WoD I believe?). I e the two dice aren't worth it for a starting character. It's an example purposefully built on two extremes of the skill - you'd expect a "real" minmaxer to have 3 in a skill they want to have a good chance in, since minmaxing is about minimizing drawbacks and maximizing advantages - basically building characters efficiently. (Powergaming OTOH is about maximizing a character concept or particular way of playing to be best in it). But with 3 in occult, the example falters, since there's only a 2-die difference.

>>5873066
>there's still a penalty for having abilities higher than 3 in WoD I believe?

5th dot costs 2 dots. With 11 dots to distribute for Primary skills, this doesn't cost you anything big. Occult 5 is easy to snag.

>>5873066
>(there's still a penalty for having abilities higher than 3 in WoD I believe?)

You are fucking invalidated.

Seriously. Stop fucking talking until you even know the fucking system.

>>5873066
>Wait, what did you do with occult again? I can't recall it having more than limited mention in the core.
It lets you know about the WoD, basically. It's like the Mythos Knowledge skill, but less useful. It's basically Academics for knowing about magic and rituals.
>(there's still a penalty for having abilities higher than 3 in WoD I believe?)
What? No. It just costs more.

>>5873007
I believe I just described Expression?

Honestly, if there's a flaw in nWoD, it's some of those skills/abilities which have been created which flow into other skills or are ridiculously similar. To me, this is basically what at you're proving, at most, except for the fact that you want to house rule a few of the base ability dice pools for powers. Go ahead and do it. WW's Nazi Ninja Frogmen haven't finished killing off the people who still play oWoD yet anywa-

>>5873125

EXPRESSION IS EXACTLY THAT.

EXPRESSING YOUR POINT.

WHETHER SOMEONE LIKES THAT POINT OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT TO EXPRESSION.

HOW ARE YOU THIS STUPID.

>>5873125
Expression = music, dancing, book writing, quality of your speech (not its substance)
Persuasion = how well your speech actually convinces and captures people

Try again.

>>5873097
He's still right about everything else.

>>5873137
Nope. If your biggest gun uses Occult, you'd be a fool to not take Occult 4 or 5.

>>5873135
>>5873130
Expression is not just your ability to write and perform. In this case it's your ability to charm your subject and influence yourself on their mind.
Again, anyone who doesn't think that Expression fits is an idiot. If you really want to make a case for the power being bad, you should concentrate on the Intelligence part, which still fits the power's concept quite nicely, but could better be handled by Manipulation.

>>5873101
>>5873097
>What? No. It just costs more.
That'd be the penalty I referred to. Penalty: The disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition. In other words, paying more for a insignificant increase in abilities, here.

>>5873130
See the guy whom I referred to, and whom he referred to (me). Yes, C) was indeed an example of Expression. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

>>5873149
What does that have to do with anything?
And no you wouldn't. There's no reason to take that much of something unless you're a minmaxer, which as has already been pointed out by myself and Bearded Bear, who DO know the system, that's going to leave you crippled elsewhere. This whole idea is basically letting players get away with minmaxing under the guise of letting them play the characters they want.

I've never, ever, at all, heard of someone honestly saying that they felt that WoD made it so that they couldn't play the character they wanted. Except for one guy who thought Werewolves were forced into being shamans and spirit ghost busters.

>>5873149
>Nope. If your biggest gun uses Occult, you'd be a fool to not take Occult 4 or 5.
It's really not worth it for a starting character. As you progress in-game if you have exp left over it might be a good idea. That'll probably be pretty far in by then of course.

Of course, some people will argue that it's cheaper to buy it up when you create the character rather than later - in a way, it is, if you don't care about other abilities much. Of course, it's usually MUCH cheaper in the long run to buy up your powerstat or other expensive-as-hell-with-exp things, if you're going to use those.

Though any decent GM will block people going for 4 or more with starting character without motivation. It's much more fun to build a character around a concept, so you know. Take this Medicine 5 guy, for one.

>>5873186
>There's no reason to take that much of something unless you're a minmaxer
You sound like the kind of person to bitch at people who take 18 in anything in dnd and not straight 12s or some shit like that.

>>5873186
>which as has already been pointed out by myself and Bearded Bear, who DO know the system

hahaohwow.jpg

>>5873227
>It's really not worth it for a starting character. As you progress in-game if you have exp left over it might be a good idea.

Occult 5 = worth 30 XP
Five skills at 1 dot each = worth 2 XP each, 10 XP total

nWoD rewards specialists.

>>5873186

>under the guise of letting them play the characters they want.

Now I can play a Ventrue who doesn't need to rely on his Intelligence and Wits to bend the minds of others. Or a Sin-Eater who doesn't need to be the Incredible Hulk to sic animals at people. That's letting me play the character I want, right?

So it's another Edward BAWWWW thread.

Can you start using a name again please Ed? That way I won't end up reading a thread you're in by accident.

>>5873249
How is that rewarding specialists?
I don't really understand where you're going with this. It's like you're saying it's cheaper to be a specialist, but it's not, and you can't be saying that being a generalist is more costly.

It still means that you're pathetic in anything else. What's mister Occult 5 going to do when he comes across a challenge that doesn't involve Occult?
Meanwhile, the guy who spends points getting one dotters now no longer has to deal with penalties.
>>5873235
If you put 18 in skills that you want powers for, and then put 10s and 8s in the things that you won't use, then yes, you're a minmaxer. This isn't rocket science.

>>5873331
>Or a Sin-Eater who doesn't need to be the Incredible Hulk to sic animals at people
wat

And no, now you can be a guy who only has to focus on one thing. While you might see it that way, and while it can be used that way, that's not why it OP made all this. He did it so that he could focus on only one thing and marginalize the use of mundane abilities, despite mundane abilities enhancing supernatural abilities being one of the points of the system.

Besides, with this all it means is that you now have to spend more points, but again, getting more than one thing up costs more than paying 8x New Dots in the end.
>>5873249
Wait, how do you get Occult 5 costing 30?
2+4+6+8+20.
(2x1)+(2x2)+(2x3)+(2x4)+2(2x5). The fifth dot costs double.

>>5873357

>It still means that you're pathetic in anything else. What's mister Occult 5 going to do when he comes across a challenge that doesn't involve Occult?
>Meanwhile, the guy who spends points getting one dotters now no longer has to deal with penalties.

It's better to do a few things really well than everything to a stupidly mediocre degree. That's what teams of specialists are for. Most of the time, you won't even end up trying to roll the skills you suck at.

>>5873422
Yet they'll likely come around. So you should at least be decent at them. Meanwhile, you've got an incredibly narrow range of focus, and you're only useful when that comes along, otherwise you're dead weight.

>>5873462

Except if you specialize and then fill out your abilities with acquired XP, you come out ahead than if you started as a jack-of-all-trades and tried to spread your purchases out.

This is more an artifact of having two different character advancement mechanics (dots and XP) than anything else, but it's how the system works:

I start with Occult 4, and we'll say Academics and Science at 0.

You start with Occult 2, Academics 1, Science 1.

Both cost 4 dots.

For me to achieve at least a row of 3's, I need to spend:
(1+2+3)x2x3, 36XP

For you to achieve the same thing, you need to spend (3+2+3+2+3)x3, 39XP

This problem gets more aggravated the more skills you spread yourself over.

>>5873501
Yes, but my point isn't to make everything 3 dots, my point is to not to turn yourself into dead weight by putting everything into a small range of skills.
If you have Firearms at 5, and I have Weaponry and Brawl at 3 each, I'm going to be more useful than you, because without a gun you're nothing.
Likewise if you have Intimidate at 5 and I have Subterfuge and Socialize at 3 each, I'm more useful than you.

I've made the example with ones that are obviously outclassing (firearms is useless without a weapon, Intimidate is useless in a situation where you don't want someone to kill you afterwards), but the point still stands. It's going to take you longer to be useful if you're a one trick pony.

>>5873594
>It's going to take you longer to be useful if you're a one trick pony.

...What?

If you start with skills X, Y and Z at values A B and C, and I start with skills X, Y, and Z at values A+B+C, 0, and 0, I will spend LESS XP to catch up to you than you will to me, making me a competent jack/expert-of-all-trades faster than you.

How many times can I show you precise math on how this works before you'll get it?

Yes, starting off, I will be useless without a gun but while I have it you can't match me.

After some XP, you still can't match my firearm ability *and* I'll be as good at punching as you.

>>5873668
>I will spend LESS XP to catch up to you than you will to me, making me a competent jack/expert-of-all-trades faster than you.
What I'm saying is that with no XP you become a one trick pony. When you get XP, yes, you can be useful all you want. But without it you're useless except in a single situation.

Meanwhile, the person who chooses not to specialize has fun and is able to complete a wide variety of tasks.
In fact, this ability to get a wide variety of tasks completed is likely to earn this character more XP, which would allow them to progress faster than the character who can only solve one problem.

>>5873668
Hang on. How does any of this make it worth it buy skills with exp instead of buying more of powers or Powerstat if your powers don't use skills at all?

>>5873706
>In fact, this ability to get a wide variety of tasks completed is likely to earn this character more XP, which would allow them to progress faster than the character who can only solve one problem.

Sure, if we assume our GM is a tosser who hands out individual XP and only XP for succeeding at tasks.

>>5873726
>Sure, if we assume our GM is a tosser who hands out individual XP and only XP for succeeding at tasks.
Overcoming challenges?

>>5873726
Um, that's kind of how you're supposed to do it.
"At the end of each game session, the Storyteller awards between one and five experience points to each character. Every character who took part in the chapter gets one point just for being there, no matter how poorly he fared. Use the following guidelines when determining how many points to hand out to each character thereafter, adding one point for each category that applies. Some characters might be awarded more points than others. Extra points should be based on merit, not favoritism.
"1 point - Automatic. Each player gets one point for participating in the chapter.
"1 point - Learning Curve. Ask the player what his character learned during the chapter's events. If you agree with his response, award his character 1 experience point.
"1 point - Roleplaying. The player did a good job of portraying his character, either entertainingly, appropriately, or both. If he veered too far from his character's concept, he might not deserve this reward, but don't be stingy here. Indeed, superlative roleplaying might be worth two points.
"1 point - Heroism. Characters who rise to the occasion with truly heroic actions of feats of survival and sheer persistence deserve a point. Do not reward characters who act in stupid or suicidal ways just so they can gain the accolades of the hero."
You know, that last one makes me want to make a character who does reckless things just to be called a hero.

There's also three for rewarding at the end of a story.
1 point - Success. The characters achieved all or part of their goals.
1 point - Danger. The characters survived against harsh odds or grave dangers.
1 point - Wisdom. The player, and thus his character, devised a brilliant plan or came up with a spontaneous solution that enabled the group to survive or succeed when it might have failed.