Cool setting bro

Eberron was here.

brb playing a robot in D&D

>>6383429

Bah. I like my campaign settings with a little more... well, not realism per se, but believability. Disbelief can only be suspended so far.

Fuck you, I custom my DEE AN DEEYAN.

>>6383429
Spellplague.
Most retarded idea ever or most retarded idea ever?

Eberron sucks.
You can custom the shit out of it, it's just a template if you will, make up towns or villages and just stick them somewhere in the realms.

>>6383429
>I've read the novels.
Ouch, feel sorry for you bro.

FR grey box with high level npcs stripped out & all magicweave bullshtit revised = fucking awesome.
Otherwise no it really, really sucks.

Red Sun was here. Faerun is for fags.

Also, Sundered Skies was here. Red Sun for a better system than d20.

THIS is the proper FR.

Wilderlands of High Fantasy, the Known World and Newhon was here.
You all are meh.

>>6383635
>Grey box
still has it's flaws but is tons better than the shit that came after.

>>6383602

ToT here. I thought I was pretty retarded, but you got me beat bro'.

I kinda like the high level NPCs, I always wondered "why are the party the only dudes out there doing shit?"

>>6383658
>liked the high level npcs
First time i've heard that from someone who's actually had PC in the Campaign world.

>>6383642

KNOWN WORLD FUCK YEAH.

Dara Dessian here. Long live the Whore-Witch Queen! Them Sun Courtlings better go wag their flaccid cocks elsewhere or we'll lure the Hunter to them.

>>6383672
Well, it would be annoying if they were in my face doing everything for me or something stupid, but they always made it seem more real to me. Like it was an actual world with history.

>>6383658
>doing shit

Did you actually see some of the power escalation? Unless your PC's can't "do shit" until they're 30th level and pseudo demi gods...

>>6383686
Gaz 1: The Duchy of Karameikos + B10: Night's Dark Terror.
Best.
Campaign.
EVER.

As long as you are a caster.

Forgotten Realms broke the already powerful casters immeasurably.

If you are any other class, forget it.

>Most Immersive Campaign Setting Ever.

I see you trollin
im hatin

>>6383429
Most Immersive campaign setting ever?

There's clearly not enough Exalted in this thread!

Fuck Faerun. Fuck it and everything it spawned. Shit was so not cash.

Fucking Elminster, man. Don't tell me you like that faggot.

The people bitching about the high lvl NPC's have got it all backwards.
They are their as a part of the history, a background for your players to build off of.
I've had players rescue certain high level NPC's from time to time as opposed to them taking second stage to Bruenor Battlehammer.

>>6383725
EXALTED!

>>6383728
I like the 3e update, got a shave, ditched the hat and staff for a sword and an eversmoking pipe.
Dudes a pimp man.

>>6383737
That was your Zenith.

This is your Twilight.

EXALTED!

There is precisely ONE good high level npc in Faerun.
ONE.
Halaster Blackcloak.
All the others need to fucking die.

>>6383735

Your point is certainly valid that a good DM can either change the setting or ignore stuff, but he should'nt have to. Some of those later FR supplements and settings were just pages after pages of ridiculously statted NPCs and powerful items. It lost a lot of the magic that the old grey boxed set had - a good general setting with some cool maps and descriptions that let the DMs imagination run with the rest. The whole points of light in the darkness feel was pretty well gone by ToT.

>>6383751

>>6383742

Actually, I think Daybreak would be the more obvious caste.

>>6383742
This is your Eclipse.

EXALTED!

Best FE supplement

>>6383751
Bitches dont know about Larloch.

>>6383783
Wooo fuck yeah shitty poorly defined religion for cookie cutter ideology gods

>>6383799
Larloch "I don't really care" the Shadow King?
Fucking boring.

>>6383769
Good point. Perhaps this, then, for your Twilight?

>>6383809
Have you actually seen the book?

>>6383823
This is your Night!

>>6383833
Sounds about right to me.
But then I really hate most FR deities and related concepts. The Spellweave? Timetravellers get raped by the gods? THE MOTHERFUCKING WALL OF THE FAITHLESS? [fuck you religious nut designers] (NO FUCK YOU MYSTRA)

>>6383842
This is your Dawn!

EXALTED!

>>6383783

I fucking hate d20 fantasy and after with a passion, but that book wasn't too bad. I skipped the tl;dr mindnumbing crunchy bits and just read the descriptions. It's post-ToT which sucks, but the writing was fairly good for some inspiration.

The Weave man, mystra like made it for magic and stuff.
Then there was this Shar bitch who was all jealous and like, there are holes in your weave and thats where I will put my SHADOW WEAVE.
it's like the force man, binds everything, holds it together.
Makes sense.

>>6383849
>The Spellweave?
ugh, oh no we can't let wizards have their own power it's got to be GODS WHO GRANT IT!
>MOTHERFUCKING WALL OF THE FAITHLESS?
Fuck whoever came up with that, seriously.
"Pick a god or you'll suffer" go fuck yourselves.

>>6383811
And if I say "Elminister" you say "Elminister "I care about everything"? fucking boring."

Stop thinking that hating everything makes you cool, you're really just a pathetic lowlife.

>>6383876
>baaaaw why does everyone hate my shitty setting.
Nice try GREENWOOD!
>Elminster 'cares about everything'
No i'd say author self-insert or maybe "trumps the PC's all the time".

Bane here, killing me was fucking gay.

>>6383870
My current monk is faithless, he see's the gods and the petty struggles they have amongst each other, they are the same as humans.
Weak and foolish, a true man is a master unto himself and bows before nothing.
He will dethrone the lords of the realms, and claim all under his name.
The Incisive Chorus

>>6383900
Being ressurected through the corpse of your son was tits though.

>>6383901
>Weak and foolish, a true man is a master unto himself and doesnt afraid of nothing.

Fixed that for you.

Eberron > Forgotten Realms

>>6383948
Red Sun > Eberron.

>>6383948
>Eberron

LOL.

ROBOTZ!!!!

The "update" for this setting was one of the few changes i legitimately hated from third to forth. Undermountan has always been my favorite place in the cosmos, mostly because i cut my DMing teeth there in second ed. 4th killed Hallister, shoehorned in dragonborn, and generally dicked around with a solid setting. I was deeply not a fan.

>>6383987
>Dragonborn
FOOOOOUUUUUUUURRRRRRRTH!

FR sucked ever since the first supplements started being pushed out.
Everyone had to worship or they got stuck in torment? What? And those are GOOD GODS? Go fuck yourselves.
Wizards can get their spells taken away by some mary sue goddess with more retcons than the entire WH40K universe? fuck you yet again.
There's a ton of high level npcs who're just there to handle ALL THE OVERARCHING EPIC PLOT ARCHS while your pc is swept to the fucking sideline?
Gawd such a shitty setting post greybox...

>>6383704
FUCK YEAH!!!!!

*brofist*

Fucking metaplot!

>>6384026

Yeah, why should a setting have history and an ongoing story? I like my worlds static and barren, thank you very much!

>>6384033
>Yeah, why should I have to come up with plot ideas instead of getting my hand held? I like my worlds to revolve around walking godz not some stupid pcs.

Fixedthatforyou.

>>6384033

Eberron has like a million plots going on, but doesn't rely on a bunch of overpowered NPCs willingly holding themselves back to resolve them.

>>6383429 Most Immersive Campaign Setting Ever.

Compared to the Wilderlands series... Forgotten realms is a pale pale shadow of its epic greatness.

The best part of Wilderlands is that it understands the concept of scale. It focuses on a region about the size of the Mediterranean, which is all the territory that your players characters should ever really cover in all likelyhood. It also tries to pack in the detail and political intrigue in a manner that makes it easy to suspend disbelief and not have "super characters" out there pwning armies.

Planescape was here, Lady of pain up in this shit.

>>6386145
Love those maps, just choose a part or roll for it and then look at all the tons of plot hooks in the area.
Fucking love the Wilderlands.

>>6386256
Exactly. The wilderlands fucking rocked because it gave you so many fucking plot hooks that you didn't even have to try to build shit before a game. You just let the players wander around and decide for themselves what they wanted to do. If one plot hook didn't appeal, you never had to railroad anyone because there were 10,000 other things that they could go check out.

It felt like you were actually in a world where it was completely up to you what you wanted to do.

My favorite hook was in the book of treasure maps one.

Where you give them this beautifully illuminate manuscript page (looked like a real page out of an old world holy book) that led them to Willchidar's well.

http://comics.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=942&it=1&filters=0_0_0&man
ufacturers_id=370

Let the players sate their curiosity and their greed, and have it bite them in the ass on that particular adventure, releasing a scourge on mankind. Even better is to do it while they're low level so it gives them a genuine reason to have a nemesis in the game.

>Treasure Maps
Awesome but the older stuff does have layout problems.
Love the new Wilderlands Box Set though.

>>6383429

I hope you like Chosen of Mystra.

Other than that, it's pretty cool.

>>6386572
>Chosen of Mystra
And gods being the end all and be all of the setting.
It's fucking annoying.

>>6383741

That was the problem, he was much more likeable as a friendly and meddlesome old sage than as a SUPER PIMP who solves everything.

>>6386584

Wall of the Faithless, anybody?

Fun fact: Mask of the Betrayer treats destroying the wall as an evil act.

>>6383783

This comes very close.

The one Regent of Cormyr was a fucking slut from what I remember, just like every woman in an Ed Greenwood book. While she's waiting for Vangerdehast to get home, she just casually strips and fucks one of her guards.

>>6386614
Don't start this again.

no D&D related but the imperial campaign from warhammer was one hell of a ride

FR have some cool villains

GREYHAWK trumps the Misbegotten Realms ANY day of the week.

>>6387585

Yes, I am SO scared of the sunflower with Sorcerer levels. So very, very scared.

For the record, people, the Wall of the Faithless struck me a bit harshly the first time I saw it too. At this point, though, I don't think it should ever actually be an issue. If you don't pick a side in the Forgotten Realms, you deserve whatever you fucking get. What are your choices?
Lathander, who is basically Mr. Rogers, Helm, who is basically Judge Dredd...
Or if you're not much of a sunshine and flowers guy, Bane, the fucking biker-god of tyranny and ass-beating? Seriously, who ends up on the wall? What could possibly occur in your life that you wouldn't end up following a god? They're around, they make public appearances, atheism has to be a complete non-issue. I'm not a religious guy now, but I'd be on board with Lathander in a nanosecond if he were real.

>>6388326
Lathander is in no way Mr Rogers. He's a fucking prick, read some of his appearances in novels as well as his fluff.

>>6388326
Party lead by ur-priest
Destroy the wall
"Fuck yes now I don't have to rot for all eternity in the wall"
Die

>>6388338
Didn't he bring Bane fucking soup or something while he was sick? I thought Lathander was the nice one. Am I thinking of a different NG loves-everyone god?

>>6388353
The primary problem in your argument is that the FR gods aren't actually nice. If there was a clear-cut good guy who was trying to save everyone, then the wall could be overlooked as a factor out of his control. The problem is that the gods are all basically politicians. Their intentions are ultimately self-serving, they aren't worth worshipping or even following. Except maybe Helm. I'd follow Helm.

>Wizards can get their spells taken away by some mary sue goddess with more retcons than the entire WH40K universe? fuck you yet again.

Yeah, but she NEVER fucking does it. It's like in the first paragraph of the central tenets of her faith, but when has it ever actually happened?

I once played a Paladin of Mystra who ended voluntarily falling because he was so fucking sick of having to kill depraved wizards who used their magic for evil, when if the Goddess of Magic would just do her fucking job (according to his moral compass) they'd just be commoners with lots of hit dice.

Ended up converting to Helm primarily because he killed Mystra during the Time of Troubles, he was that fucking sick of her.

>>6388374
God dammit Helm was badass. The only god trustworthy enough not to get his ass thrown out of godhood during the ToT. That was Helm, right? Ao's favorite boy?

>>6388374
The Goddess of Magic's job was to let anyone who wanted to use magic use it as long as it didn't unbalance the Weave. She was NEVER supposed to judge people on their actions and stamp out evil wizards, that was the whole problem every god had with the new Mystra. And if your Paladin was worshiping her on the assumption she should be taking down Evil, you were wrong.

>>6388404

Yeah, well, notice I said 'according to his moral compass'. I know that it's better for all concerned if Mystra lets the bad guys use the Weave since otherwise they'll just go running to Shar and use the Shadow Weave - keep your friends close and your enemies closer and all that. It makes good sense.

It's just not the sort of attitude that really meshes with a typical Lawful Good paladin.

>>6386614

No, it doesn't. It DOES however have Kelemvor cockblock you from tearing it down, while he cites some inscrutable metaphysical bullshit for why doing so would be a bad thing.

>>6388457
There is no Shadowweave. It was a bad call, Ripley. A bad call.

Sup fags is this a setting war?

>No, it doesn't. It DOES however have Kelemvor cockblock you from tearing it down, while he cites some inscrutable metaphysical bullshit for why doing so would be a bad thing.

SUDDENLY DEMONS AND DEVILS EVERYWHERE

>>6387426

Uh, which one? I can't keep fucking track of the Cormyrian Royal Family.

>>6388503
Alusair Obarskyr, the Iron Regent. Super sex drive, and bisexual like every Ed female in existence. And yes, she was known for fucking her guards out of boredom.

>>6388523
Err, Steel Regent.

>>6388503

The Steel Regent. Alustair or whatever her name was.

>>6388523

Eh, she got it from father, who was THE manwhore to end all manwhores.

>>6388523
>>6388532
>>6387426

I like how EVERYONE knows what a whore she was.

Also, two of the Chosen of Mystra, both of them Seven Sisters, said they'd "learned to enjoy" the time they spent as SLAVES TO DROW.

>>6388523

Did the novels ever feature Caladnei, the delicious brown girl sorcerer that replaced Vanderghast as Court Magician?

>>6388545

I just wish Drizzt had ran into a Chosen of Mystra orgy or some shit when he first arrived on the surface, so he could throw up his hands and say "Fuck it, it's the same wherever I go," and then reverted to a psychotic animalistic killer of all that moves.

>>6388482

Spelljammer > Dragonlance > Greyhawk > FR > Dark Sun > Planescape > Ravenloft

I like using Faerun because it saves me having to think up entirely new worlds for games, while still having extensive info on towns and locals and such, but it's dumb to run it absolutely as it's meant to be. Let me explain:

you play a campaign for 4 years, real time, and when you FINALLY are strong enough to beat the BBEG and fight your way into his chamber...oh look, Elminster saved the day...again. Hot damn, why'd I waste my time. Back to the farm.

Elminster doesn't exist in my games, and neither do the other crazy powerful world protecting wizards.

>>6388532
STEEL VAGINA.

Does anyone still rage about the Dragonboob invasion of FR?

>>6388545
They're not the only Ed characters who enjoyed time spent with the Drow. Whats-her-name from the Shadow of the Avatars series gets sexually aroused and frightened by anything jelly-like due to time spent with them, and instinctively assumes positions to get whipped if she doesn't think about it.

>>6388579

He nearly wound up with Alustriel instead of Cattie-Brie, but I think Ed Greenwood went NO ALL THE SISTERS MUST BANG ELMINSTER and whined until Salvatore went "Fine" and agreed to it.

>>6388574
She shows up in Elminsters Daughter I believe. And she likes to have sex with Alusair, of course.

>>6388609

What the hell? What was her name?

>>6388618

Is this canon? If so, where? I demand proof.

>>6388634
I'm at work or I'd check, and I can't find her name on the internet.

Oh, she also falls in love with two male harpers at the same time, and is destined to have both their children.

>He nearly wound up with Alustriel instead of Cattie-Brie, but I think Ed Greenwood went NO ALL THE SISTERS MUST BANG ELMINSTER and whined until Salvatore went "Fine" and agreed to it.

Holy shit, source? I can believe it, I just want to see it with my own eyes.

>>6388618
>>6388616
>>6388574
>>6388609
Holy shit, this reads like a /tg/ fapfic.

>>6388654

Read the books where they're taking back Mithril Hall...I think it's Streams of Silver. There is a LOT of subtext between Alustriel and Drizzt, which then abruptly cuts off. Just...gone. Bam.

>>6388616
Lots of plans got changed. Remember, Cattie-Brie was set up to be with Wulfgar, not Emo Drow.

>>6388616
Alustriel was far more interesting than Cattie-Sue anyway.

>>6388523
>>6388616
>>6388618
>>6388649

Does... does Greenwood have an entry on Tvtropes' Author Appeal page? Because if not, he certainly deserves one.

>>6388678
Emo Drow should have just been granted a harem by Eilistraee or something.

>>6388589

GOD TIER
Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft

GOOD TIER
Spelljammer, Mystara, Greyhawk

OK TIER
Birthright, Forgotten Realms, Eberron

SHIT TIER
Dragonlance

>>6388702
Planescape isn't God Tier imho. The fluff and setting is great, but it's even more powergamerific than Eberron and Forgotten Realms.

>>6388687
why?

He doesn't worship her, nor does he espouse her church's dogma about reconciling the Drow with the rest of elfkind and taking down Lolth.

He just bitches about how is sad that he was born a drow because they are so evil but doesn't DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT but rather leaves it all behind and adventures for the benifit of his new homeland and friends.

I still want sauce on Caladnei/Alusair.

>>6388743
Just to break up the lesbian orgy in Eilistraee Heaven or whatever.

FR is good. The fact that Drizzt spawned a flurry of Mary Sue bullshit doesn't make him a bad character. The history of FR is so well done that everyone and everything else can go suck a dick.

>>6388702

Switch out greyhawk with eberron, and it's a deal.

>>6388778
The early Drizzt stuff is good, but I really enjoy the Cleric Quintet. Cadderly and Danica? The Bouldershoulder brothers, one of whom becomes a dwarven druid in 2nd ed? Yes please.

I've always felt that Dragonlance was a much better setting for the series of novels, but not really to host a D&D game in.

Like, after all the heroes in the novels did all their shit, I feel that the PCs would never really be able to shine in comparison.

>>6388804
Hell no. The cleric quintet remains the worst thing Salvatore has done.

>>6388818
I disagree, DENEIR WILL FUCK YOUR SHIT UP

>>6388818
Opinion noted. I disagree, however.

>>6388778
>The history of FR is so well done that everyone and everything else can go suck a dick.
>The history of FR is so well done
ToT & spellplague.

>>6388830
Oh yeah, you're right. I forgot about that Star Wars bullshit he did.

>>6388743

Eilistraee's church still has women squarely at the top, it's almost as bad as the Lolthites.

Only Vhaeraun is worthwhile.

>>6388847
I can think of situations where this is not so bad.

>>6388803

hmm... deal

>>6388837
ToT=harmless awesome fluff
Spellplague=stupid bullshit
Learn the difference; it could save your life

>>6388867
The only good thing about ToT was Helm, you know this to be true.
FR would be better if Helm was the sole surviving God.

>>6388826
I disagree. I barely managed to suffer through the first book. What's with Salvatore and heroes who get paralyzed by guilt, grief, innocence et cetera every ten pages? I though Drizzt and his "noooo I mustn't kill drow they be the single best organized force of evil on the mortal plane but one in a million might be neutral or good better let innocents suffer and die than betray my principles" was retarded, then enter the young cleric who can't cast spells, uses a hand crossbow with explosive bolts and is wracked with guilt for accidentally killing an evil self-serving monster of a man who would destroy and entire world with an incurable magical disease inspired by Talona herself. The monastery was turned into a B production horror movie (of course, nobody with a name died) and the evil priest was only barely stopped, but oh! The precious fragile snowflake is having nightmares! And the next book? Elves besieged! Spell-less cleric kid to the rescue! With an obvious weak link with no conceivable reason for being there tagging along, and eventually getting blackmailed into betraying everyone at a crucial moment. Also magic elf dance/psychic restoration horsecrap. Fuck Salvatore and his books, combat scenes are about the only thing he can write and those got old before Drizzt hit the surface.

Sliders Tier: Planescape
Robot Tier: Eberron
Horror Tier: Ravenloft
Generic Tier: Greyhawk
Generic Shit Tier: Forgotten Realms
Cannibal Halfling Tier: Darksun
Middle Eastern Tier: Al-Quadim
Star Trek Tier: Spelljammer

>>6388990
Would a Sharessian cleric do mind restoration with blowjobs?

OH NO THERE ARE CHARACTERS WHO ARE POWERFUL, BAWWWWWWWWW

Entreri and Jarlaxle are the only two reasons why I ever gave a damn about Faerun. And even then, those are just two characters...so it was a pretty small damn to give. But give it I did.

>>6389065
How the hell should I know? I just sit here seething with hate.

>>6389115

I will NEVER understand why Salvatore didn't make an Entreri spin-off series.

>>6388990
Well, fuck you. I liked it, and so should you.

In all honestly, though, it didn't really start to take off until Cadderly got teh CoDzilla spells. He never wore armor either. Think about that.

>>6388540

House Obarskyr just has... so much love to give of, that's all.

>>6389399
He did.
Read "The Sellswords".

>>6389559

Is that what we're calling it now?

>>6390157
Is sounds nicer than venereal disease.

>>6388540

I swear, Azoun IV must have been a fantastic fuck for Filfaeril not to dump his cheating ass.

3.0 FRCS is one of my favorite books of all time. I read it cover to cover over and over when I first started DMing and it really showed me what D&D was about.

I always thought the 'Realms should be a lot darker than it was usually portrayed, however. It's such an incredibly chaotic, dangerous place, and every bastion of virtue (Cormyr, Silver Marshes, Dalelands, etc) seems about to crumble.

>>6390719
Considering Filfaeril was fucking around(including with women), I doubt he cared much.

>>6393050

Source?

Since anything having to do with 3.0 or above is complete shit, this is clearly a massive troll thread.

>>6393050
I think it was one of the Shadows of the Avatar books. Has Filf visiting the female Lord of one of the Dales and talking about the things they do together. I do believe they talk about Azoun fucking some other woman while Filf is off having her fun too.

>>6393490

<two chicks bitching about men

Was there a tub of ice cream involved?

>>6393520
I don't think there was, no. And they weren't so much bitching as just talking. Azoun has fucked both of them after all.

And as much of a man-slut as Azoun was, and as much of a slut-slut as Alusair was, Elminster and the Seven Sisters are probably the biggest sluts in the Realms. Holy HELL did they get around.

>>6393548

To be fair, if you lived forever, you'd get around too.

barfight with a pitfiend is commonplace. all other arguments are invalid.

>>6383885
Why do people blame fucking Greenwood?

It's not his fucking fault--he didn't want Elminster to be any more than a minor character--a persona he used in Dragon mag. The same goes for a lot of other NPCs.

If you want to blame someone for fucking up the realms, blame TSR and WotC. Greenwood doesn't even run the Realms as published.

Shit. Fucking ignorant fucks. If you're going to bitch about the Realms at least try asking around on Candlekeep or god-forbid asking the man himself. It's not like he doesn't make appearances at every fantasy con.

Forgotten Realms is like Warcraft-same world, familiar faces show up a lot to start adventures, vastly different characters and time passes each new supplement to bring new story arcs.

Ebberron is like Legend Of Zelda-a flashy new ability and sidekick, a story arc with familiar PCs, and a completely random and often non-canon world.


But when it comes down to it, mixing the two correctly would make both infinitely more awesome.

>>6383605
That can be said about any setting.

>>6393607
>Forgotten Realms is like Warcraft-same world, familiar faces show up a lot to start adventures
Correction:
>Forgotten Realms as published by TSR and WotC, familiar faces show up

>>6388458
i thought kelemvor laxed punishment for the faithless as long as they were brave and honorable.

>>6388589

Agreed!

>>6388589
What you meant was:
Dragonlance < Spelljammer < FR < Greyhawk < Dark Sun < Planescape < Ravenloft

It's an easy mistake to make.

^Old and Busted

<--- New Hotness.

The 3.5 edition of the FR was great, but the 4th.. what the fuck just happened to my setting :S

A lot of good stuff just went poof, no more wizards of Tthay, Calimshan got assraped by Djinn.

As a sidenote, while I enjoyed the Salvatore books, I do agree pretty much everybody in them, save for Wulfgar (who he had to bring back because the editors wanted him too), was a mary sue of epic proportions.

And I don't want to talk about the Cleric Quintet, how does he go from being a stupid cleric with a Jo-jo (right that was it?) to being the avatar of some god?

>>6393734
i'm interested in darksun what's it like?
also describe ravenloft too for the hell of it.

>>6393745
o u.

>>6393599
Actually, it is his fault. Last time I checked he wrote how many books about Elminster doing all sorts of stuff single handed and being super awesome and banging goddesses left, right and center?

Bigby, Digby, Ligby, Zigby, Zagig, Xagig, Ngxzshagig, Tense, Tenser, Tensile, and Mordenkainen will kick your ass.

>>6393758

Just off the top of my head

Dark Sun is set on a post-apocalyptic dying world where everyone is psionic and there like no goddamn water anywhere, so its sort of like Mad Max & Fist of the North Star set on a 40K death world.

Ravenloft is a "demiplane" ruled by dark, mysterious and evil things that takes a lot of classic horror movie stuff (think old school Universal as a starting point), twists it around into even grimmer stuff as the Powers (or whatever they're called) toy with mortals, trying to drive them insane or evil or both for giggles.

>>6393599
Yeah, look how wrong you are.

# The Elminster Series

* Elminster: The Making of a Mage (1994);
* Elminster In Myth Drannor (1997);
* The Temptation of Elminster (1998);
* Elminster In Hell (2001);
* Elminster's Daughter (2004)

HE WROTE ALL OF THOSE!

>>6393818
The Demiplanes of Dread are a prison for powerful evil rulers across the planes. The "people" of the demiplane are hapless victims who Powers don't care about.

>>6393818
Dark Sun: No water or metal, and very little plant life. And a lot of magic tends to be of the soul devouring, life eating kind, which led to the above. Of course the established rulers know it.

It's a pretty fun setting. Played a Thri-Kreen druid once who felt really, really guilty for nibbling on unconscious fellow party members while helping them recover from a near TPK.

>>6393758

Dark Sun: Desert everywhere, no gods or planar travel, arcane magic sucks all the life out of the land making it lifeless dust that nothing will grow in, metal is almost impossible to find and everything, even the plants, are psychic. All because some warped tyrant decided to wage a genocidal war that almost wiped every fantasy race off the face of the planet several hundred thousand years ago and elevating one of his generals into an insane god being that sucked ever nutrient out of the planet and souls out of whoever he encountered was better than letting him continue.

After all, he was going to give the world to the Halflings (who have since become feral cannibals)

So deadly it encouraged players to make two or three characters for every one they played so they'd have back ups.

In short, it is awesome.

>>6393875
THAT'S right! I knew I was missing something. And if you're not from Ravenloft, you don't want to wake up there because its next to impossible to escape, if I recall.

Either way, Dark Sun & Ravenloft are both crapsack worlds full of pretty cool/nasty things

>>6393758

Ravenloft: A Gothic, artificial prison where the worst villains from across the Multiverse are trapped and given a "land" which both imprisons and empowers them. They are secret rulers who are taunted with the very things that brought their downfall and are cursed never to have what they want by the mysterious Dark Powers.

Characters are judged for their actions, and evil actions have a chance of turning them into warped and twisted monsters, possible even enough for them to earn eternal damnation as a dark lord.

Necromancy is stronger, divinations are weaker, and alignments cannot be sensed. Gods do not speak to their clerics and even the most righteous god can have violent, Chaotic Evil purges performed by clerics who continue to cast spells in their names.

Monsters are everywhere and characters stand against the darkness and try not to be swallowed by it.

It too is awesome.

>>6393758

Dragonlance: The best setting that no one but Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss were ever meant to play in.

>>6393745

I actually have to agree with you there. Pathfinder Chronicles is pretty good. It reminds me of everything I liked about Warhammer Fantasy mixed with everything I liked about Forgotten Realms.

It's familiar enough to be a comfortable fit. New enough to be interesting, and just grimdark enough that you really feel like the fate of thousands rests on your shoulders.

>>6394018

Agreed

>>6393847

For the majority of Making of a Mage, Elminster is a low-level rogue resisting an oppressive magocracy. He doesn't learn magic until the end.

Elminster in Myth Drannor is about young Elminster thinking he's hot shit and taking on elven archmages, who repeatedly kick his ass.

Temptation of Elminster is about him awakening from stasis to find that magic doesn't work right at the moment, so he has to make his way through the plot more like a regular protagonist and less like a godling.

Elminster in Hell is about archemage-elminster getting captured and prison-raped by being vastly more powerful than he, and about other characters going in to rescue him.

Elminster's Daughter isn't actually about Elminster.

You are retarded.

Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are fucking terrible.

Yeah, a campaign setting made specifically for the creators to jerk off over how awesome their characters are is really appealing. Nothing lends itself to an interesting setting more than having every plothook already taken care of by someone else before you even get your hands on it.

>>6394048
Your stupidity is overwhelming.

And they are all shit books. Not a single one of them are any good. Greenwood wrote 4 books about his GODDAMN SELF INSERT MARY SUE then one book about his daughter. What part of SELF INSERT MARY SUE are you too stupid to understand?

>>6394048

And through all of those, despite being a retard he has a goddess gushing juices all over him.

>>6394087
>SELF INSERT MARY SUE

This is why I don't think you've actually read a single one of them.

You're basing this on the CHUCK NORRIS OF FAERUN image of Elminster; an image invented by TSR/Wizards and not by Greenwood, who actually humbled the character at every opportunity and tried to make him (at most) just another hero.

Either that or you don't actually know what "Marry Sue" means. That's another common mistake.

>>6394048

1. Making of a Mage has him banging goddesses and living as a woman and for a few centuries as well. It is bad fan fiction.

2. Myth Drannor has him saving the day for elves who are supposed to be far more advanced magically but who need him because he's "so awesome". Again, bad fan fiction.

3. Temptation has him showing how awesome he is by not going evil when tempted by evil hotness.

4. Hell has him being tortured and being awesome by resisting the whole while, and what powerful and awesome friends he has.

5. Daughter is about how awesome his kids are, of which he has had many.

Face it, Elminster is a Mary Sue who does everything because he is awesome, and Greenwood is the one that wrote him that way.

>>6394002
Why do i suddenly want a deathgate setting book?

>>6394002
On the one hand, Dragonlance sounds like a decent idea for a dark, heroic take on a fantasy world. The gods aren't answering most people's calls, three moons that govern the three alignment-based schools of magic, Draconians, the evil dragons are organized and trying to conquer the world, Tinker Gnomes, Gully Dwarves, Raistlin and Solamnic Knights instead of paladins.

On the other hand, it had weird tribal shamanistic stuff, the novels...haven't aged well, and, well, it has Kender.

I still think the setting could work, but it would need a lot of work.

>>6394136
>You're basing this on the CHUCK NORRIS OF FAERUN image of Elminster; an image invented by TSR/Wizards and not by Greenwood, who actually humbled the character at every opportunity and tried to make him (at most) just another hero.

"Humbling" the character in ways that doesn't actually bring change to them. Every plot and twist that Elminster has gone through in those books is exactly the type of tripe you could find in any bad fan fiction. Uberwunderkinder gets show himself awesome and gets powers, faces people supposedly more powerful than him for training but outpaces them and saves them, loses powers and has the force of will to avoid the darkside, tortured by uber powerful monsters and still refuses to give in no matter how bad it gets, and deals with the uberwunderkinder he spawned at random somewhere and who is following in his footsteps and being awesome.

Not only is it bad fan fiction, its the type of thing you'd see in bad MUDs!

>>6394174
The setting could work if the novels never, EVER take place and there is no time travel. There is no upper tier stuff to do because the player's can never outdo what's happened in the novels.

That's Dragonlance's main problem (besides Kender).

>>6394141
I do not contest points 1 through 5, and also see no problem with them. Except for the "bad fan fiction" part; if I thought that, I obviously wouldn't have kept reading them. By the sounds of it, you simply don't understand the pulp-fantasy genre.

"Being awesome" does not make a character a Marry Sue. A Marry Sue is a character who succeeds at everything (everyone loves them, always win fights, etc); more to the point, they succeed for no reason. They win fights just because they're The Sue and everyone loves them no matter how insufferable their personality is.

This has never been the case for Elminster, at least not when Greenwood writes him.

>living as a woman and for a few centuries

>>6388373

If you assume the existence of gods to begin with, this is realistic. Re-read the Illiad, Elder Edda, Bhagavad-Gita, etc.

God are not nice people.

>>6394199

The lack of change is a franchise thing.

Campaign settings aren't like novels. You can never permanently kill a character for plot reasons (at least not once they're established), but you can rape the entire setting in stupid ways to accommodate a new edition.

I don't really like it either.

>>6388387

If you are still here...not really, Helm being the only god was actually because Ao needed someone to guard the "stairs" that led back into the godlands. Otherwise they could have apparently just walked back in...not sure exactly why. Also, Helm is the god of watchmen, so he failed in his duty to protect the Tablets of Fate (IIRC) which is what kicked off the ToT, so he definitely wasn't a favorite.

>>6394234 they succeed for no reason.

Elminster succeeds because Mystra gushes juices all over him at every opportunity, without her completely unquestioning, unlimited and retarded love for him he'd have died a low-level rogue at the end of the first book.

>>6394254 You can never permanently kill a character for plot reasons

Chewbacca would disagree.

>>6394234

I've never noticed a difference between how Greenwood or anyone else writes him.

The Pulp-fantasy genre doesn't excuse bad writing tropes. Some really good books come out of the genre, but that doesn't mean it makes the crap ones less than crap. I read a lot of pulp-fantasy, but I also realize that bad writing isn't a staple or a necessity of the genre (though it feels that way some times). It doesn't mean that I won't enjoy it, it just means that I will enjoy it for what it is instead of glossing over its flaws.

I enjoyed the Elminster books, but I see Greenwood's characterization for what they are. It's more polished, but it's not a separate character that he's writing about, he's writing an adventure for his pet character.

Someone said that Greenwood isn't responsible for the problems with Elminster, but frankly he's written the stuff that people spend most of their time complaining about. It's a super powerful character who's a sex machine and capable of destroying nations with a sneeze (but doesn't because he's busy doing "other things") simply to create a bar for player's to judge their character's against.

>>6394230
Yeah, those novels are a real problem. I remember reading Dragons of Autumn Twilight and thinking it was generic but okay, Winter Night had a character death that made me go FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU and then Spring Dawning was a confusing mess that made no sense. I didn't even bother with Summer Day or whatever the hell it was called when it came out.

Some of the short story compilations were pretty decent, but the main novels have too much "Tanis is the bestest, super serious half-elf evar" wanking going on to be useful for making anything the player characters do to be useful.

Still, the Gold Box Dragonlance games were my first D&D, so I totally do want to see the setting come back in some way for nostalgia's sake.

>They win fights just because they're The Sue and everyone loves them no matter how insufferable their personality is.

And that doesn't describe Elminster?

>>6394344
Dragons of Summer Flame was fine.

Because it had Tanis dying. And Steel, who was the son of two of the more interesting & amusing characters in the series.

>>6394230
>>6394344
>>6394370

First: I'll admit I really liked Dragonlance and own quite a lot of stuff based off it.

Second: Dragonlance is best not thought of as one age or setting but a conglomeration of different ages and settings. In fact, they've revealed that there are several other unexplored continents on Krynn that have been unexplored. You could easily make a campaign based off later-era exploration of the entire world.

It's like saying Forgotten Realms is impossible to play in because Elminster is awesome and Drizzt is a mary sue.

>>6394440
er, scratch the second unexplored and replace with made open to the knowledge of continents.

>>6394440
If you think of the Dragonlance setting as being like Star Wars, it's much easier to imagine campaigns.

>>6394485

Exactly.

so the best way to use Dragonlance is to create a totally unexplored region so that you don't have to use anything from Dragonlance

Gotcha

>>6394339

I only say that you don't seem to understand pulp fantasy because it sounds like you're complaining that he is so powerful. Either that or you're complaining that he always wins in the end; I'm not sure.

These aren't 'tropes, and they aren't bad writing when taken in context. They're simply how pulp fantasy 'works'.

All pulp fantasy protagonists beat the badguy and save the day. It is not a particularly subversive genre. The difference between a good protagonist and a Sue is that the the former is a human character who screws up, has limits, and acts like a human, while the latter is just a hollow self-insert who doesn't do anything -except- succeed, and who's 'struggles' with the antagonists are thus far less interesting.

The only legitimate criticism that I've read, was >>6394289
I'll admit, Mystra's favor IS the sort of blank-check superpower that a Sue would have, but that's not how it actually used. When some angel-princess sue has that kind of power, she uses it to resolve every serious conflict, resulting in shit writing. Mystra's favor, conversely, is used as an excuse to let Elminster fail without killing off the character. He'll blunder in over his head and fail, she'll whisk him away, he'll try again and win the day without her help.

In Elminster in Hell Greenwood almost seems to be parodying the Mystra thing (even though it's a different Mystra now) by having her TRY to storm in personally and rescue her mancandy by brute force, only to FAIL, forcing the godamn goddess of all magic to find a backup plan.

This is one of the reasons why I disagree when you say Greenwood writes the character the same as everyone else. He's very self-aware, and if anything a little -too- apologetic, going out of his way to try to prove that Elminster isn't perfect.

4e compliance was really taken too far with forgotten realms. It's a superior 3.x setting, but killing off all the deities is a major blow to the relevance of it and its future is now in question, I think. The setting should have also had an entry for official half-orcs. In fact, D&D is rather without a campaign setting for 4e. The default is shit as always, FR has been neutered, Eberron has robots and world wars and trains and is a complete clusterfuck that should have never been made, and we're pretty much left desolate.

Now is the winter of our discontent, when we will have to suffer the even worse depravities of equally high absurd and patchwork homebrew settings until a real campaign setting can be made to fill the void FR has left. It makes me sad. I'm not even one of the people raeging over 4e, either. I like a lot of the changes; the few bits that are colossal fail are easily fixed with house rules (ignore new alignment system, no dragonbornes or tieflings or warlocks).

Pic related, it's a shot of the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in my bookshelf.

>>6394626
>ignore new alignment system, no dragonbornes or tieflings or warlocks

Fuck you.

>>6394495

No, just don't use the same territory. Or use the same territory but in a different time. Or do something involving gnomish hijinks. Really, there's actually a lot to do in Dragonlance, but people tend to ignore that fact because the books made them feel like THEY ARE SMALL TIME.

Which is understandable, but still. Pre-Cataclysm stuff rocks, and post-Cataclysm pre-War of the Lance would be awesome too. Even stuff during the War of the Lance would be interesting, if you could pull it off right.

>>6394339

Greenwood was and is a DM first. Elminster's a DMNPC. Don't expect High Art outta D&D fiction.

>>6394626
>No imagination allowed

>>6394670

Elminster is a DMPC when written by anyone except Greenwood (including most FR DMs).

Other writers cast him as the obnoxious hero who teleports in to fix everything (or worse, teleports in to offer minor aid, and to remind you that he -could- fix everything if he didn't have more important things to do).

In the books written by Greenwood, that's not what Elminster is at all.

>>6394617
Unfortunately I've taken my sleeping pills, so I can't continue my side of the argument.

Until next time!

>>6394749

Fair enough, 'nite then!

For what it's worth, I tend to play devil's advocate in threads like this. Though Ed's Elminster series ARE my favorite FR novels.

>>6394716

So... what would call Elminster's ability to make every goddess, female Chosen, priestess, queen, princess, noblewoman, witch, Demoness, and evil female overlord cream their their panties at the thought of him and want to jump his, but the power of a Mary Sue?

Well fuck you guys too.

>>6396849
The fact that he's vaguely attractive, I suppose. One of the few things I know about women is that they're attracted to a lot of men on looks alone. It's when you open your mouth that you run into trouble.

I had a hardon for Storm Silverhand when I was young.

>>6388589
>Spelljammer > Dragonlance > Greyhawk > FR > Dark Sun > Planescape > Ravenloft
What?
Dragonlance is shit, FR is shit and Greyhawk can be shit [can be awesome if done right] the rest are fucking great.

>>6388589

Is that ascending order, with Ravenloft at the top? If not, you should probably lay off the lead paint chips.

>>6388710
>powergamerific than Forgotten Realms.
Nothing fucking is.
NOTHING.

>Generic Tier: Greyhawk
Not if done right.
Greyhawk has a lot of good ideas but they're often used badly. (it leaves a lot open for the DM's to write)

>>6393584
Every high level npc is a bastard.
Even the good ones.
They won't be upstaging you every second.
It's not as small of a world as FR.
Fuck Elminster, Blackstaff, Szass Tam, Larloch and every generic sorceress whore you can find in FR.
FUCK 'EM.

>>6393678
And that makes it better, HOW?

>Ravenloft
Play it as gothic horror, strip out some of the worst fluff & rules faggotry and it's awesome. (official modules tend to be a bit railroady, some of the Dread Lords are utter shit [Lord Soth with vampiric Kender] and Paladins are like a motherfucking beacon to everything evil ever)
>Dark Sun
Awesome but never ever bring in the Prism Pentad stuff or the Revised Box Set. It's all shit.

>>6394048
>Elminster's Daughter isn't actually about Elminster.
Oh fuck you that book is the shittiest thing ever.
How many daughters did it turn out he had again? And the whole I AM MYSTRA YOU ARE MY CHOSEN I'M NOT SURE HOW TO GO ABOUT THIS BUT

>>6394174
Also has that shitty "gods give magic" bullshit, Kender & Gully Dwarves, worst railroading in modules ever (this guy has to live WHATEVER the pcs try to do) and DRAGONS DRAGONS DRAGONS.

>>6383544

This.Also midnight

>>6396849

I don't think that's the power of a Sue. I think that's the power of... power.

He's the most powerful mage in the 'realms. And, incidentally, happens to be a fairly charming guy.

It's just bizarre because we aren't used to archemages being irrepentant manwhores. Which, frankly, is part of his charm.

The stereotype we're familiar with is of a dried-up old arcanist locked in a tower, where asexuality is used to demonstrate the character's disconnect from humanity. And Elminster breaks that. He's not stern, he's not honest, he's not gravely arrogant so much as impishly insolent, and he's almost never completely serious.

At this point in the game he's starting to become a stereotype of his own, but fifteen years ago that was all kind of refreshing.

Though, even I'll admit that Mystra's huge wet-on for him has always been way over the top. But it does become kind of interesting (and funny) when you view it in terms of a quirk of Mystra rather than an inexplicable entitlement for Elminster; I can't help but see her like this hot-but-frigid stiletto-executive who puts on a business face for most of the world then molests the shit out of her bewildered secretary after hours.

>>6397002 kender
FFFFFFFFF-
NO YOU DID NOT JUST TRY THAT
YOU ARE NOT PICKPOCKETING THE KING DAMNIT

My thread is still alive...
Awesome.

>>6383544
Verisimilitude is the word you're looking for.

So... people are complaining about high level NPCs who are usually too busy with their own plans to really affect a campaign. The only reason they'd really show up to upstage the PCs is if you have a crap DM that makes cameos for the sake of making cameos.

And the fact that deities are a very important part of the realms. Why am I reminded of the thread about christianity in D&D that had /tg/ getting all high and mighty about how if someone can't adapt to the religious beliefs of a setting then obviously they're not capable of roleplaying?

>>6397104
.....dude, the writers came up with a spell, specifically to make him unkillable by ANYTHING, including divine intervention! Then they gave it to ALL wizards to use! How is that not Gary Stu?

>>6397128
>The only reason they'd really show up to upstage the PCs is if you have a crap DM that makes cameos for the sake of making cameos.
Or you know, people just don't like a ton of "world-shakers" that they'll neverevereverever do anything to because the GM likes his GMPCS! (or the designers in this case)

>And the fact that deities are a very important part of the realms.
Important != going against their every wish is EVIL and SUICIDAL.

>Why am I reminded of the thread about christianity in D&D that had /tg/ getting all high and mighty about how if someone can't adapt to the religious beliefs of a setting then obviously they're not capable of roleplaying?
You're bringing up a troll thread that had a lot of shit from both sides of the argument?
Classy.

>>6397152
>>Or you know, people just don't like a ton of "world-shakers" that they'll neverevereverever do anything to because the GM likes his GMPCS! (or the designers in this case)
As I said, the GM is crap and has these NPCs mess with the campaign just to dick around. Not like FR doesn't have thousands of adventurer groups and adventures that they could be dicking around with instead of your own. In other words, the GMNPCs have their plates full, they have no reason to all concern themselves with your group if your group doesn't want them to.

>>Important != going against their every wish is EVIL and SUICIDAL.
Considering all the deities it's impossible not to go against at least one's wishes. Which is why you just go with the deity with a similar belief system as your own and as long as you don't profane their temples you'll come out alright.

>>You're bringing up a troll thread that had a lot of shit from both sides of the argument?
It served its purpose.

>>6397203
>In other words, the GMNPCs have their plates full, they have no reason to all concern themselves with your group if your group doesn't want them to.
Now i'm wondering why they're there to begin with.

>Considering all the deities it's impossible not to go against at least one's wishes. Which is why you just go with the deity with a similar belief system as your own and as long as you don't profane their temples you'll come out alright.
Or just tell the DM "I prefer the Wall of the Faithless". If the DM is going to be a dick about it, so will I. After all it's not like FR forbids people to ignore gods it's just that you'll end up in it's equivalent of HELLFIRE for it.
Bullshit setting "feature" is bullshit. :(

>>6397217
>>Now i'm wondering why they're there to begin with.
For groups that like having random cameos.

>>Or just tell the DM "I prefer the Wall of the Faithless". If the DM is going to be a dick about it, so will I. After all it's not like FR forbids people to ignore gods it's just that you'll end up in it's equivalent of HELLFIRE for it.
As opposed to any real world religions? :P

>>6388702

Dragonlance > Ravenloft

>>6397241
>As opposed to any real world religions? :P
It's just fucking annoying. "Here pick a god if you don't you can't be ressurected, also you'll spend an eternity in pain."
Alright i'll go with...
"Tharizdun, Ghaundaur etc etc"
Because if the GM feels the need to enforce his godbotherer bullshit in game at least i'll play my view on that fucker.
"You can't worship evil deities!"
As if there's any FR deities that aren't CE...

>>6393745

This > All wotc settings

>>6397258
Now ignoring the blatant exaggeration, I must say I find that as long as the player in question can still be a team player even with 'evil' motives the DM should have NO reason to refuse it.

>>6397274
While a lot of my complaints with FR is how GM's tend to run it I suppose the main thing i've got against it is that underlying "Magic is only through Gods and if you're not a worshipper you BELONG IN HELL" deal. Pisses me off just thinking about it...

>>6396849

You forgot female dragons. They too, wish for nothing more than the Sage of Shadowdale to pork them something fierce.

>>6397306
>>6397258
>>6397217

Jesus cock-gobbling christ I can hear the nasal vitriol in your text. Are you seriously so insecure in your atheism that you can't even play a PRETEND theist?

Go be angry somewhere else.

>>6393548

I thought the reason House Obarskyr is full of sluts was because it turned out that somewhere in past, Elminster had managed to fuck his way into the lineage? At least, I remember there being a huge debacle on the offical WotC forums because of something to that effect.

>>6397357
>PRETEND theist?
I can and have. Several times.
I despise a setting that from the get-go assumes that anyone that isn't a godbotherer should burn in eternity (or until Kelemvor or some other pissant Death deity decides you're A-material) and goes so far as to hamper gameplay [ressurection] for them.

>>6397357
Also, i'm not an atheist but more toward the Agnostic/Doesn't give a shit side.

>No Ressurection
Close enough, it's more "if he's faithless you need a wish or a miracle and you/you're god will have to negotiate with [death deity]".
But FR is all fanwank and masturbation fluff anyway.

>>6397357

He doesn't sound like an athiest; hating Elminster has nothing to do with theology.

He just sounds like a roleplayer who wants his own character to be the most powerful force in the setting.

>>6397375

Why?

>>6397464
Then he should man the fuck up and work on it as opposed to whining like a bitch.
The Incisive Chorus bows to nothing, man or god and doesn't afraid of anything.
He will see the gods cast aside and will reign the supreme divine being in all the Forgotten Realms.

>>6397464
Not really, I hate it when DM's set up "slayin gods" plots for instance.
>Why?
I suppose it's because I like being able to choose what kind of character to play rather than being forced into one.

>FR's God Faggotry
THIS.
Worst thing about FR even beyond the inherent GMPC's imo.

FR Gods.
They're so petty, even by god standards, that the powers that be assigned them a caretaker!

>>6397496

That attitude is incompatible with campaign settings in general.

Wanting to play an athiest in Faerun is like wanting to play a mounted knight in d20 modern. There is a difference between being "forced into a character" and just bitching that a given setting doesn't support the character you want.

You remind me of those little shits who get angry at the DM for not allowing anthropomorphic animals as PCs.

>>6397534
>getting pissy over atheists
>calling someone a furry

>>6397534
>Wanting to play an atheist in FR is wrong!
And yet they allow it but screw you over if you do it.
What's even better is that some of that godfaggotry is a new thing. 2e had those resurrection rolls while here it's outright said "one day then only a miracle or wish wil help dem non-worshipper bastards!"

>>6397562
>here
>3e
fix'd.

>>6397562
>And yet they allow it but screw you over if you do it.

Yes. Kind of like playing a mounted knight in d20 modern.

The funny thing about this conversation is that there ARE deicidal cults in FR, and if a player actually liked that concept I'd have no problem allowing one as a character. I'd even let him roll a new character at no level loss the first time he died and Kelemvor fucked his old one.

But the second he started pissing and moaning about it he would be laughed out of my game room.

The gods control the afterlife in FR. If that honestly offends you it doesn't mean that the 'Realms are a bad setting, it means that you're a juvenile twit with authority issues.

>>6397620
>The gods control the afterlife.
And of course teh magic and the timestream and every motherfucking epic plot in FR ever.
But in general FR is meh tier just a step above Dragonlance. Too many flaws.

>>6397620
My monks master plan is to dethrone the gods.

>>6397620
>If that honestly offends you
It doesn't, but it certainly hurts my appreciation of a setting where you're pidgeonholed into following a bunch of utter assholes unless you want to be the only one in the party who can't be ressurected.

>>6397620
>deicidal cults in FR
So now you're putting up strawmen?
Where did I ever say any shit about killing the gods?

>juvenile twit
Love to see that you ignore arguments and go for insults and strawmen instead.
Class act.

>>6397783
My point was that characters who don't worship gods (and are proud of it) have a place in the setting. You aren't complaining because the character you want doesn't fit (though that wouldn't be a valid complaint either), you are complaining because your actions have consequences.

You also don't appear to know what "strawman" means. A strawman fallacy would be attacking a stance which you don't hold. I was actually -excusing- a stance which you don't hold (though it was more extreme than the one you do hold and thus excused yours implicitly).

For instance, when you greentexted me with "Wanting to play an atheist in FR is wrong!" and then attacked said stance, that was a strawman fallacy.

Playing an athiest in the Realms is fine if you're willing to man up and accept that not all characters work equally well in all settings.

What isn't fine is playing an atheist in the realms as some absurd act of defiance towards this shit setting and its asshole gods, then pissing and moaning when said asshole gods dissolve your character's consciousness for being useless to them. That's like playing an armored knight in Darkwater then bitching when you fall off the boat and drown, or playing a paladin in Ravenloft and whining when the world fucks you over, or rolling up a fanatical dragonslayer in Dragonlance and then decrying the injustice when you get the shit killed out of you.

"Not fair"?
Tough shit.

>>6397911
>For instance, when you greentexted me with "Wanting to play an atheist in FR is wrong!" and then attacked said stance, that was a strawman fallacy.
First of all, not me.

>Playing an athiest in the Realms is fine if you're willing to man up and accept that not all characters work equally well in all settings.
Uh-huh, so the Wall of the Faithless wasn't a bullshit addition that came in later on to make those characters harder to play, what with the 'no ressurection' deal.

>What isn't fine is playing an atheist in the realms as some absurd act of defiance towards this shit setting and its asshole gods, then pissing and moaning when said asshole gods dissolve your character's consciousness for being useless to them.
Except I never specified it as some absurd act of defiance, and are you seriously trying to play it off as "In FR anyone who doesn't worship a god is a total dick that would be instantly killed"?

>That's like playing an armored knight in Darkwater then bitching when you fall off the boat and drown.
The kids show?
>or playing a paladin in Ravenloft and whining when the world fucks you over
Another change I disliked with 3e, Paladins not being Dread Lord beacons anymore...

>or rolling up a fanatical dragonslayer in Dragonlance and then decrying the injustice when you get the shit killed out of you.
...You seem to be pretty good at this strawman thing after all.
FR wasn't so intensely "everyone needs to be religious or get raped" before the edition change.

>"Not fair"?
>Tough shit.
So basically "In FR you either worship a god or i'll kill you."
Yeah, I can see you holding a group together for long.

>>6397962
If a group has an issue with that particular detail about the FR, what do they do? Oh that's right, they play with a different setting.

>>6397911
>My point was that characters who don't worship gods (and are proud of it) have a place in the setting. You aren't complaining because the character you want doesn't fit (though that wouldn't be a valid complaint either), you are complaining because your actions have consequences.
Seems to me he's complaining about bad GM's and designer choices.

>You also don't appear to know what "strawman" means. A strawman fallacy would be attacking a stance which you don't hold. I was actually -excusing- a stance which you don't hold (though it was more extreme than the one you do hold and thus excused yours implicitly).
Actually that would be when attacking a straw man [the fallacy] what you did, setting up a hypothetical situation and showing it of as if it was his point of view is more or less a straw man.

>Playing an athiest in the Realms is fine if you're willing to man up and accept that not all characters work equally well in all settings.
Agreed.

>What isn't fine is playing an atheist in the realms as some absurd act of defiance towards this shit setting and its asshole gods, then pissing and moaning when said asshole gods dissolve your character's consciousness for being useless to them. That's like playing an armored knight in Darkwater then bitching when you fall off the boat and drown, or playing a paladin in Ravenloft and whining when the world fucks you over, or rolling up a fanatical dragonslayer in Dragonlance and then decrying the injustice when you get the shit killed out of you.
Can't say I find much in his posts that point towards playing an Athar or Ur-Priest in Forgotten Realms i'm afraid.

But you're both utter faggots for whining about older editions of a setting.