Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered). Most techniques have a skill or virtue prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Goron, Kokiri, Rito, Zora, Hylian, Gerudo and Sheikah, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can curl into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth). Humans (which include Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah) instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4), and get discounts on certain techniques associated with their race. No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)

Only issue I can see with this is well.. What if someone wants to play a race who evolved from another race that wouldn't exist in the same timeline?

Or is it "A wizard did it"

What we're currently discussing:
>Music
>Mass categories

Personally? With the way Zelda games/series seem to invent new races. I'd say you should just have a custom-race-creation guide in the book.

Just a general set of rules that'll help GM's/PC's build their own races.

>>15375638
Like two players playing Kokiri/Koroks or Zora/Rito? The GM will probably have to decide.
(Chances are that the Korok were created AFTER the Great Flood, at least. So that's simple to regulate.)

>>15375638

You could explain it as time travel, it is a normal ocurrence in zelda games (if only for link). But seriously, those are precious excuses to roleplay and make some good background stories for a character.If you dont like the idea you can just avoid them.

>>15375638

>Kokiri stored in Sacred Realm
>Thousands of years past
>Meet Great Grandson
>Cultural Shock
>Time Paradox

Now we're playing Zelda /tg/.

I'd like to put forth something that has been brought to my attention.

What would be the reasoning behind having all the races in one setting. Especially given the relationships between Zora/Rito and Kokiri/Koroks?

I can understand that some people would like to stick to the canon settings (where some of the races simply don't coexist), but I'd really like to see a compelling unified setting. Something that really brings it home.

Well if there is ever an IRC channel doing this I`ll be sure to give this a go.

>Recommends adding Skull kids

>>15375662
Right now races are just Mass, Weakness/Resistance and one or two specials.
They're rather easy to make crunchwise.

I look forward to seeing a finished system, but what kind of adventures would you go on? The Legend of Zelda universes rarely had much in the way of regional politics or conflict fleshed out and generally didn't seem to have much of a plethora of stuff to explore that wasn't generally related to Link's various quests.

>>15375694

There was but it was fluff or behind the scenes.

There was the Hylian Civil War. It was between Skyward Sword and Ocarina of time, for an undetermined amount of years.

Hyrulean Civil War: Taking place between the events of Skyward Sword to Ocarina of Time. While undetermined how long this war lasted or for what reason it started, the war sparked conflict between Hylians who wished to unify their tribe with the Zora and Goron, while the other wished to wipe them out so they would not get close to the Sacred Realm. The end result was the Royal Family called a cease fire and unified the Zora and Goron tribes together with the Hylians. This war also brought about how Link was given over to the Great Deku Tree by his mother who fled from the war but was mortally wounded in the process. Afew years would pass and the start of Ocarina of Time would begin here.

>>15375677
As far as I'm aware, we're keeping it Canon. No unified setting here.

>>15375673
Well, there WAS the ghost of that Sage in Wind Waker...

>>15375694
You can do whatever you want to.
Bodyguards for Royal Family on trip? surewhynot
Random people who need money? adventuran'
Twili trying to colonize the Light World? GIANT EVIL HAS AWAKENED? Any time that Link is gone?
there are a lot of options, really.

Ok, this is going to sound hostile, but what precisely differentiates a Legend of Zelda RPG campaign from any other High Fantasy campaign aside from having some Legend of Zelda stuff thrown on top?

So is the purpose of these threads to tell people what's currently done and to see and read suggestions and answer an onslaught of questions?

>>15375694
PCs are the people in the background. The ones who give quests, struggle with Moblins, live in Castle Town, join the Resistance against the BBEG of the week...

Or just go treasure hunting in the tombs of Ikana.

>>15375744

No hostility sensed. There was a Zelda D20 setting, but this one was built from the ground up. I don't know if that helps or not but other wise it is just a campaign based around Zelda Mythos, in which case you'd be right.

>>15375690

Yes. But providing concrete rules onto how might be a good way to encourage players to get creative with what they want to be, without any of them making something REALLY BROKEN. If your immediate response is "They can handle it. Nobody's that dumb."

Then you aren't thinking like a game designer.

>>15375762
Well, what I mean to say is are there any particular differences in tone or campaign style that this particular setting would encourage? Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay encourages a particular tone and style, Iron Heroes encourages a particular tone and style, Riddle of Steel encourages a particular tone and style, hell, even the different editions of D&D each encourage their own particular tone and style.

>>15375689
We're trying to avoid IRC since that's apparently how all the big projects end. --for recognition and PR we need /tg/, and IRC isn't open enough to be honest.

>>15375744
>pic related
We're building a new system for it.

>>15375749
Yes, but don't drown us.
If you have suggestions, give them. The RPG hasn't moved away from /tg/ whatsoever, and you can find links to the old threads on the wiki.

>>15375761
Or hunt FROM the tombs of Ikana. >:3

>>15375762
Before anyone asks: Zelda d20 was... Bad.

>>15375769
I'll try to see what I can do.

>>15375762
In any system that doesn't function as an utter straight jacket for character building (and even many that do, see D&D and Dark Heresy) you're going to find that broken characters are going to be remarkably easy to make regardless of what you do. Best not to fret about it, that way lies books written of legalize with samey options.

>>15375761
>>15375694
>>15375723

See: This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want this game to basically be Forgotten Realms: The Game, where no matter what your PC's are doing or who they are, they're nowhere near as good as Drizzt or Ellminster.

Plus, how would a GM even handle Link?

"You encounter a hylian male. He wears a green tunic and carries a sword and shield."

"I hail him!"

"He looks at you... and doesn't say anything."

"Uhm... I ask him 'What brings you to this land?'"

"He continues to look at you and say nothing."

"... uuuhhhhmmmm..."

>>15375781
No rudeness meant, that character sheet looks awful. It should be designed to fit onto a conventional piece of paper with a vertical configuration.

>>15375776

An easy answer would be that you take the tone right out of the video games, in which there are acouple of tones.

But a harder answer would be to sum up Zelda for people who have never played or heard of the games before, which is the wise and broader way to describe it.

If I could sum it up imo, its a high fantasy medieval setting, that for most broad campaigns to be played in this, has players take the role of the everyman just trying to survive in a semi hostile world.

I hope that helps somewhat.

>>15375776
Puzzles and Dungeoneering?
The tone is... not clear yet, to be honest. Somewhat light unless you run something like Majora's mask, I suspect. Definetively not Grimdark, at least.
(Unless, of course, Termina.)

>>15375798
He does talk though, according to other characters. He's just supposed to be easy to project through.

The easy way out is to set it in a time were Link is gone.
The time between OoT and TWW, for instance.

To be honest, I'm not really sure what Power Level the heroes are running on. It's lower than Link, at least.

>>15375820
I think there's a vertical WIP as well. I think it was supposed to be like the games were or something?

>>15375820

There is a vertical format on the wiki.

As for tone, I always kind of imagined that is could be semi-serious. Whimsical, but not overtly silly. I'm pretty sure it could run the gamut.

>>15375860
>The easy way out is to set it in a time were Link is gone.
>The time between OoT and TWW, for instance.
Alternatively, because of the many permutations of the Legend of Zelda world, a group could make their own world and timeline. It could be an entire world that is just waiting for the moment when the Hero shows up or the aftermath of one in which he did.

On the subject of all the races together I propose this, it's crazy but it might explain it.

Basically, you have the two timelines, one where Hyrule is flooded and one where hyrule is not. The setting for the RPG could be a middleground between the two, perhaps instead of causing the flood to fully consume Hyrule, the King of the Red Lions causes the waters to subsede, allowing the races of old Hyrule to perhaps mix with the ones that decended on the island tops, this also allows for the "middle timeline" finding of the Twili in a parallel setting of Twilight princess, Thus allowing all the races to be together.

Thats just my two cents anyway.

>>15375860
ADVENTURES! TREASURE! LEGEND OF ZELDA THEME FROM SSB BRAWL BLARING FULL BLAST IN THE BACKGROUND!

And then you throw them at a tomb full of redeads. Cue screaming.

In all seriousness, mostly light, but with some rather dark moments. Unless Termina, then the other way around with a side order of steampunk.

>>15375938
Or have the timelines start to catastrophically merge. Two castles, two lands, two Hyrules trying to take up the same space and failing.

Link can't help due to being Schrodinger's Hero (dead and not dead at the same time), Hyrule Castle and the land at large is populated by "ghosts"/"echoes"/"shades" of the future/past, and it's up to the heroes to do what they can to prevent the timelines from merging.

Bonus points for throwing in the third timeline/setting: Majora's Mask and making the Mask Salesman or some similar being responsible.

>>15375974
Only problem with the two timelines merging is.... well, one Hyrule is flooded with water... so that would make two hyrules flooded with water...

so it would be an underwater setting, though I get what you mean.

>>15375939
>Party kills Gibdo
>Gibdo bit me
>GM hands me a note, says that I am turning into a Gibdo
>My skin is turning into linen strips
>Wat Do

>>15375938
The problem is Kokiri/Koroks and Zora/Rito.
While Rito might not be Zora, Koroks are definitively Kokiri that were changed by the Deku Tree.

>>15375974
Majora's Mask is part of the Adult Timeline.
Perhaps the merge is merely something like Final Fantasy: Dissidia, were SOMEONE or SOMETHING dragged everything from alternate universes into a single one?

OR something with the Lost Woods. That could also work.

>Party members come from asolutely everywhere, time-wise
>Party members got lost in the lost woods
>Party teams up after meeting eachother therein

I don't care for your system too much but whoever did that character artwork, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

SETTING: I don't think it would be too difficult to make a unified setting that had a familiar feel. So far you'd really only have to change the origins of the Rito and Koroks, and their origins, while canonized, are largely implied in the first place. Also, there are plenty of other kingdoms and regions outside Hyrule proper, or even alternate worlds you wind up in via portals in forests. They just aren't well detailed, which leaves the matter to us, and I'm sure we're more than capable of putting together something functional and compelling.

ADVENTURES: For the playtest campaign I'll be running, I'm going to have the local lord of a small land in a valley be imprisoned on his throne by the dark magic of an evil wizard. The call is put out for heroes, and they are tasked with finding the location of and recovering the legendary Hand of Byridon, an enchanted gauntlet said to absorb magic, as the court thinks it is their best hope.

The party must seek a wise sage in the mountains, navigate a haunted forest, cross plains locked in a border dispute, and final dive into a right proper dungeon to recover the gauntlet, harried by the evil wizard's minions and other obstacles along the way.

It's pretty standard adventurer stuff with Zelda themes and flair.

>>15376021
Majora's Mask isn't part of the adult timeline. It's a parallel world, but in the child link timeline. There's A and B (OOT child, MM) on the same time setting, and C is later in the timeline. ALTTP, fuck knows.

Lost Woods canonically are space-time fuckery places. (MM entrance was there.) Would work.

>>15376016
Since they haven't completely merged, have confused "ghosts" drifting in the "sky". Ripples of water in the clouds, pirate boats in the skies, "ghosts" occasionally coming down as the boundary between the worlds thins...

This could work!

>>15376048
That's Cz aka >>15375850. I haven't saved much of his art, but he's made a bit.

>>15376021
Perhaps some of the Zora stayed behind under the water and perhaps the kokiri are protected by Lost woods magic in the same way Link was transported to Terimina?

Or the whole "tripping the rifts with magic" works too, as you have the sacred realm that links them all, and as seen in a Link to the past, people can kinda fall into that, but it kinda narrows down your characters introduction in the game, it would work from a canon point of view.

>>15376021
SONG OF HEALING STAT! GET ME THAT SONG!

Seriously though, that'd be perfect for an Ikana game. The "locals would take a dim view of desecration of their homes, rally to fight the "invaders", pour from the passages under the well...

>>15376090
Or an even more trippy version, perfectly mirriored between the sky.

Death mountains almost touching, the flooded hyrule's water dipping down as rain where the magical boundry is weaker?

I am not much of an RPG maker guy, but settings and things are my shitck as a would be Enviroment designer.

>>15375938
>>15375974
How about a "multiple dimensions" theme to the game? There are several zelda games with a "theme", like Time or Wind or Seasons or something. Perhaps the setting is looking for a "Hero of Worlds", or multiples thereof? Various dark powers trying to get free have broken the balance of everything, and players have to hop between worlds with some mystic artifact - or possibly with the help of the Twili? They have world-shifting magic.

Possible worlds:
- Light World ("normal" Hyrule)
- "Flooded" world (Wind Waker timeline)
- Dark World (players suffer a transformation based on their Virtues?)
- Twilight Realm (players turn into ghosts or animals?)
- Sacred Realm (mysterious)

>>15376126
Oh god, that's an incredible mental image and work even better. Solves the "underwater issue too.

And where the mountaintops and temples meet...there the veil thins and men may touch their kin that never were.

Legend of Zelda: Through a Mirror Darkly.

>>15376089
Has anyone been picked yet for the play test campaign,also, how done are you and how longer do you think It will take?

>>15376146
I'm against multiple dimensions or converging timelines for two reasons. First, it happens in comic books a lot and I'm never satisfied with it. Second, I don't really want to look at the setting and be able to go, "Oh, I see where they mashed together a bunch of disparate video games there."

>>15376165
With the system I mean.

>>15376146
Works, but sounds a bit...world-hopping. Would probably be great, but not something I'd really be interested in personally. Mystic artifact is probably the way to go.

>>15376163
>>15376126
I'd kill for drawfaggotry of this.

>>15376146
Thats a good idea, but keeping the Sacred realm as a sort of "hub" dimention might help ease together the whole transporting thing, basically a group of characters from each different timeline falls into the sacred realm somehow either through their own devices or maybe even the Goddesses and they are then thrown into the world that will be the main setting, it could even be a plot device used several times and for Bad guys to use too.

Would anyone be interested in running a game over IRC? Especially the "worlds colliding" one.

>>15376165
I've got a group and we should be starting in the next couple weeks. I'll be posting the progress as we play, for on-the-fly rules concerns and real examples of play to draw from.

>>15376090
D'oh, sorry. OoT/MM/TP is the CHILD timeline, Wind Waker the adult one.

>>15376096
Lost woods magic... Does not protect.
>Everybody, Stalfos. Stalfos, everybody.
>(Kokiri become Skullkids though)
It's pretty non-euclidean, though.

>>15376146
That's a pretty decent setting. Perhaps the PCs come from the various worlds?

>>15376165
We need techniques. If you're just aiming for a single session, we need Songs, Spells, items, bosses...

>>15376175
What about doing it like in Wind Waker: When you're in Hyrule, you can see the ocean above you.

As far as setting is concerned, we're trying to make the system as open as possible. You could set a game in the Great Sea or Twilight Princess Hyrule. I always imagined my game being in some expanded version of the Ocarina of Time world with some Wind Waker influences.

A unified setting might be a good idea. It doesn't have to exist on any timeline and can be as general as possible. The "feel" of the Zelda game is more than just having the three main characters involved in the story.

Someone should copypaste some of the suggested songs/mass rules from the end of the last thread so we can keep working.

>>15376195
As this whole setting talk as hugely peaked my intrest ( I fucking love LoZ as a setting and how it evolved )

How would you play it as a setting with all the races? would they just "Be there" or would there be some kind of mixture like I suggested?

I am not kind of trying to hijack anything out of this project, I just enjoy thinking of this from a world-making perspective.

>Talking about Legend of Zelda as though each game has a cohesive narrative

can I just suggest: stop now?

trust me. You're all putting way more thought into this than Nintendo is.

Too much canon-wank in this thread. How about we go back to writing the game instead of arguing over fluff?

>>15376202
>What about doing it like in Wind Waker: When you're in Hyrule, you can see the ocean above you.

We thought about that, but someone pointed out that would limit interaction between the characters from different timelines. No point in having "ghosts" appearing in each reality if they're miles above you.

I for one find the mental image of a mirror Hyrule with the ocean surface alternating with the normal sky to be...awesome. Mountaintops touching, the sky flickering between a storm-churned sea and a sunny day...almost seems like an actual Zelda game. And with the Clock Town Third Day music trilling in the background...

>>15376225
>>15376219
We've more or less gotten the basics done, and nothing like a bit of advice for would-be GMs.

>>15376213
>>15376219
>>15376225

Sorry, it was just to interesting of a topic when I saw it as an off handed comment.

>>15376213
Here's the current rules for Mass Categories and Overland Movement from last thread.

Mass Categories

Miniscule (<2 Mass): Forced movement that you impose moves the target 2 fewer spaces, and forced movement you suffer moves you 2 additional spaces. -0k2 penalty to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Light (2-3 Mass): Forced movement that you impose moves the target 1 fewer space, and forced movement you suffer moves you 1 additional space -0k1 penalty to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Medium (4-6 Mass): No special game effects.
Heavy (7-9 Mass): Forced movement that you impose moves the target 1 additional space, and forced movement you suffer moves you 1 fewer space. +0k1 bonus to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Giant (10+ Mass): Forced movement that you impose moves the target 1 additional space, and forced movement you suffer moves you 2 fewer spaces. +0k2 bonus to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.

Mass of Player Characters normally only ranges from 2-9, with only monsters and other creatures fitting into the Miniscule or Giant categories.

Additional Mass from armor does not increase your Mass Category.

When wearing heavy armor, your mass category is treated as 1 higher for the purposes of forced movement you suffer.

Overland Movement
While traveling overland, a party's speed is based on the Mass Category of their largest member (unless they want to leave that person behind and let them catch up later).

M. Category----Per Day----Per Hour----Per Minute
Light------------35 miles----3.5 miles----350 ft.
Medium--------30 miles----3 miles------300 ft.
Heavy----------25 miles----2.5 miles----250 ft.

>>15376272
Looks good. Maybe "Large" instead of "Heavy"?

>>15376146
Honestly, this has been my problem with the whole threads. The assumption that there's a default setting. Why? Why not just leave setting to the GMs or build expansions later that cover the various settings, and have setting building/tropes/etc. in the GM section of the PDF when/if we ever get to that? Not everything has to be mapped out exactly 'this is here and that is there' every time. It's nice to have sometimes, but... I dunno, I don't like the idea of sliding a setting into the core. It should cover everything possible, and direct settings should cover their own specifics (like the Zora split into River and Ocean Zora that would be logical in LttP, or the Zora's VERY explicit evolution into the Rito in WW), with suggestions for how to add these things into that setting if the GM wants it.

That way we don't have to go on for days agonizing about how to fit both the Zora and Rito, or Koroks and Kokiri, into the same setting, and can get back to work on other stuff.

Starter boss (Low threat)
Gohma
Life: 9 Mass: 9 Move: 8, climb 8
Attack: Pincers- 4k3, 1/2H damage
-Eye Ray- Range 10, 3k3, 1/2H fire damage 
Defense: Body 3k3, Boss Armor (no damage from regular attacks), Eye 4k3
Critical Point: Ghoma's begins the fight with her eye closed. It remains closed for 2 rounds until she uses her eye ray, where her eye remains open until the beginning of her next turn. Any projectile attack that targets her eye and hits Paralyzes her for 1 round, or until she takes 3H of damage.

>>15376294
It's about Mass, not just height or size, something could be small but dense.

compare a Deku to a Kokiri, the Deku might look larger but they'd have much less Mass.

>>15376299
We're just brainstorming ideas for settings that could take place for all of races to coincide, no need to take it as we are trying to gather some sort of core setting for the game at all there.

Just relax,no one was assuming anything, some people just like talking fluff about things.

>>15376299
There's no default setting, people are just throwing out ways to fit all the options in for GMs who want to do so.

>>15376311
Isn't it a bit...too low? It is a giant, dark-magic spawned creature, after all, and it was rather nasty. I'd say 12 Life instead of 9 at the very least...

And what about it trying to physically crush the players? Sending out its spawn? We don't seem to have covered those options yet.

Will Skull kids count as Kakori or will they be enemies

>>15376349
Skull Kids would probably be able to count as Kokori, maybe with a thorn dartgun or something? Those leaf-puppets from TP are definitely something to stat at some point though.

>>15376342
I remember the original writeup for Gohma WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back in the first or second thread had a Spawn trait in it's abilities that dropped 1 Life 2k1 (or something similarly weaksauce) spawn in a particular amount. I dunno if that's going to be kept though.

>>15376272
Could we change it so the categories are

0 or less (+2 knockback) (Minish sized things)
1-2 (+1 knockback) (most Dekus)
3-5 (no difference) (most Kokiri, kids, all humans and zora)
6-7 or 8 (-1 knockback) (most Gorons)
8+ or 9+ (-2 knockback)

This way makes it a bit more fair to child characters.

>>15376377
We should definitely have that as a full-turn thing or something. It's part of the "giant mother spider queen" thing". Maybe once it takes a certain amount of damage?

>>15376391
Child characters already have enough coddling. They should be weaker in quite a few ways to make it more "realistic". After all, the only child adventurers we saw in Zelda were the ones with the blessings of the goddesses...

>>15376377
>>15376342
I was trying to make a quick, beginning boss monster based more on the original Ghoma than anything. By no means is it a final submission.

The 9H is supposed to represent 3 hits before the boss is defeated.

I wonder if bosses and minibosses should get more than 2 actions to compensate for the players outnumbering it.

>>15376409
I'd argue Kafei, but that was mostly a case of 'adult in child body' issues.

>>15376409
Since when were Zelda games worried about realism? Kids saving the world is something that happens all the time. No reason to cripple people who try to play that kind of story.

And Kafei didn't really have any combat situations.

>>15376424
Ah. Still, just saying that we could probably toughen it up/give it some bells and whistles while still keeping it an easy starter boss...

Sounds good. Maybe as many actions as there are players or something? I don't know.

>>15376409
I'm going to have to agree with >>15376438
Realism is not an issue with this game. And Wind Waker you are a normal, non-destiny-related 10-year-old boy whose sister happens to get kidnapped by evil. You kick ass long before you get any blessings or sacred objects.

>>15376391
There should just be a balance so that it's advantageous to be smaller, but in a different way than it is advantageous to be larger. There's already the faster round-by-round speed, but should there be more?

>>15376538
Dodging? Penalties to enemies trying to hit them?

>>15376561
That seems to make sense, but we're already on a pretty low-numbers game. Adding an extra dice rolled or kept to defense dice, and penalizing larger creatures in the same way, might be a bit much.

>>15376538
Kids with Mass 3, speed 6 (as opposed to fast adults with mass 3, speed 7) don't have any real advantage. The extra point off of mass is currently mainly cosmetic. No matter what we do, we shouldn't end up making a huge difference between kid and adult games.

>Ssinkind temple
Zelda hasn't had a snake themed temple yet, has it?

I'm looking over the races on the wiki, and I spot a couple things that sit wrong with me. Rito should be 4 mass 6 movement, frankly. Their adults are the same size as humans, but with lighter bones. Humans I was thinking should be 5 mass 5 movement, the real middle ground. For some reason Kokiri currently say 3 mass 6 movement, which doesn't even add up to 10.

Opinions on this?

So let's keep it as is for now and move on to something more general? Like bosses?

Pic related.

>>15376641
Keep what as it is?

>>15376048

While I don't have a actual website (Working on a blogspot), I do have a DA page.

Warning shitty name.

http://tidus-backlash.deviantart.com/

>>15376633
Yes. No. Fix it.

>>15376680
Mass.

>I-density owsona
The new furry?

IDEA: Maybe our current Mass vs. Movement system isn't the best way to go. Being bigger doesn't necessarily make you slower, especially with longer stride. Even if it did, the current system is kind of extreme. Instead of having Movement directly opposed to Mass, how about an alternative?

I suggest base movement be equal to your Physical attribute plus a value based on your Mass Category. Something like +4 for Light, +3 for Medium, and +2 for Heavy. This means if you dump stat Physical you will be slower in round-by-round situations, but not criminally so. The slowest a person could be is a Heavy character with a 1 Physical stat, for a 3 movement.

We can swap the equation, perhaps. Base movement on Mass Category rather than total mass, with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Physical stat?

I like the second option better, personally.

>>15376739
Sorry, that just seems a bit odd. Our current system's clear, and does the job (mostly). Maybe we can come back to it when there are more voices on the subject?

>>15376763
I definitely want more input on the subject. The current way to determining how fast a character moves in combat creates way too big of a disparity, in my opinion. One way or another, we should see how it plays out pretty soon.

Should our current goal be to createca sample dungeon for playesting?

Here's my proposal for calculating movement speed. Just want to get it posted so people can look. Gonna come back later when more folks are on; I gots a campaign to start working on.

Movement
A character's movement speed, the number of spaces they can move by using a single action for movement, is determined by the character's mass category and Physical attribute. A light character has a base speed of 5, a medium character a base speed of 4, and a heavy character a base speed of 3. Add one half the character's Physical stat (rounded down) to the character's base speed to determine that characters total movement speed.

For example, a Human (Hylian) with a Physical score of 2 has a total movement speed of 5 (base 4 for medium mass plus half his Physical score). A Goron with a Physical score of 4 also has a total movement speed of 5 (base 3 plus half Physical) and a Deku Scrub with a Physical score of 3 has a total movement speed of 6 (base 5 plus half Physical rounded down).

Movement speed may be affected by heavy armor or other items.

>>15376877
I think there are a few more systems that need hammering out. Just things like conventions for giving out rewards, healing over time out of combat, etc. Playtesting will probably reveal what needs the most work.

I thought that dark blue rectangle in the corner was kinda ugly, so I "fixed" it (though I'll let you be the judge of that). anybody know how to upload images to 1d4chan who can stick this in the races section?

>>15376924
>conventions for giving out rewards
Not sure how to handle this as far as rupees are concerned, but it's easy enough for things like magic items in dungeons.

>healing over time out of combat
Heart pickups from jars and things lying around seems to be the obvious thing, but rolling for every broken item to see if a heart appears might take too long. Also, a night's rest should restore Magic and Life to their maximum.

Also, I'm not sure what's wring with our current mass/speed system. I think it's ok the way it is, and if it needs revising we can find out in testing.

>>15376739
mass isn't size. it's weight. that's why it slows you down.

>>15377037
This. Mass and size are independent of each other.

We should list "space" or "size" for creatures, perhaps using D&D sizes as a base? Small and Medium creatures take up 1 space, large creatures take up 4 spaces, etc. This matters less if you aren't using a grid, but it's still useful to have.

>>15377108
we had size categories based on different ranges of mass, but I don't think it got added to the wiki and I can't remember what they were

I'm generating a character from the information on the wiki, and I've run into something that has quite soundly stopped me. Starting equipment.

Here's my suggestion. At character creation, each character may have the following:
- 1 non-magical armor
- 2 hand-held items (one-handed weapons, shields, magic wands, etc. A two-handed weapon counts for both).
- Some amount of rupees for purchasing any additional gear.

This clearly needs work. Items are going to have to be statted, categorized, and given monetary values.

>>15377143
See >>15376272 and >>15376391

>>15377171
many items have been statted and categorized. they just haven't been given monetary values

>>15377143
But Mass isn't Size.

>>15377284
no, but in the context of humanoid life forms there is a correlation between large size and high mass, hence why smaller races have low mass and larger races have high mass. that's why I said ranges of mass. mass between a and b is a different size category than between x and y

Turn order in combat is determined by Physical|Courage rolls, but monster lack these stats at this point. Should we include more stats for the monsters, or have them make a different kind of role? They should probably have Attributes and Virtues, to make things easier.

There is a lot of work left to be done, but let's not get discouraged, in case anybody is feeling that way. We've made a hell of a lot of progress.

>>15377334
Just give the monsters pools based on their relative challenge, rather than full stats. It makes it easier to have stat blocks in that manner. So additional stats for monsters would be things like Attack, Defend, Initiative, and others, rather than having to stat out their stuff completely. Makes it simpler.

>>15377334
I doubt anyone will get discouraged. we've made fairly steady progress so far, and I think we were all aware from the beginning how much work this would take.
we could give regular monsters the same attributes (physical, mental, spiritual) and some kind of equivalent to virtues and just name/fluff them as something else other than the triforce

>>15377359
>>15377355
It would be better if they had stats like PCs, that way it's easy to decide how to roll something other than attacking and defending for the monsters/NPCs, or include skills they might have. What if a stalfos tries to climb after fleeing characters? He's going to need stats.

It should be fine to keep them with the same Virtues, and much simpler. Power, Wisdom, and Courage are fairly universal ideas. You wouldn't say people don't possess them just because they are evil or aren't heroes.

TEST: I simulated combat with my new character vs. a single stalchild. It never touched me. To make combat more engaging, I'm going to draw up some combat maneuvers any PC or NPC/monster can use. Things like all-out attack, total defense, stuff like that. I'll post what I come up with for review.

I think this game seems super cool, but honestly I was feeling a bit intimidated by this because this is the 13th thread and I felt that I'd miss a lot of stuff (and I really don't want to have to browse through 13 separate gigantic threads). But, going over the page on 1d4chan, I really want to play this (even more than the LoZ M:tG homebrew set) and I'm gonna talk to my buddies to see if they'd like to give it a shot.

>>15377453
Let's not get carried away with the minutia. Let's get a working system before we start adding new powers to monsters. We need to put them through a real test with multiple PC's before we decide they need more muscle.

>>15377591
Oh, no, I wasn't suggesting they needed to be better. It's just one stalchild, and the character is built for straight-up combat. I'm not surprised by the outcome, I'm just saying that the combat felt lacking in excitement. But again, it was just a dude vs. a stalchild.

Here's what I've got so far for generic combat maneuvers:

Combat Maneuvers/Mechanics
You can only make a single attack action on your turn unless a Technique allows you to make more.

Attack Actions
All-out Attack: You can spend a Double Action to make a single attack with a +1k1 bonus to your attack roll.

Charge: As a Double Action you can move up to double your movement speed in a straight line up to an enemy and make an attack with a +1k0 bonus.

Knockdown: Single Action. Roll opposed Physical|Power against a single adjacent target. The defender may use Acrobatics instead. If you win, your target becomes prone and takes a -0k1 penalty to defenses until they regain their footing.

Grab: Single Action. Requires a free hand. Make a Physical|Power check against your target's defense (active or passive, whichever they are using against you). If you succeed, you grab your target, and the target cannot move away from you until they break your grab.

Shove: As a Single Action you can attempt to push an adjacent enemy around. Roll an opposed Physical|Power check against your target. For each success you achieve over your target, you push the target 1 space away from you.
You can shove at the end of a charge instead of making an attack with a +1k0 bonus to your opposed roll.

>>15377735
Miscellaneous Actions
Opportunity Attack: When an enemy leaves a space adjacent to you or attempts to use a ranged weapon while adjacent to you, you may make a free attack against that enemy. You may only make one opportunity attack against a single enemy in a single round.

Total Defense: You can spend a Double Action to dedicate yourself to defense. You can use your Active Defense against all attacks against you until your next turn.

Move: As a Single Action, move a number of squares equal to your movement speed.

Sidestep/Sideroll: As a Single Action you can move 1 space without provoking opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies.

Stand From Prone: Single Action. You're no longer prone! =D

Feint: As a Single Action, you can attempt to throw your target off and leave them vulnerable to your next attack. Make an opposed Spiritual|Wisdom check against your target. If you win, your target cannot use their active defense against your next attack before the end of your next turn.

Break Grab: Single Action. Roll opposed Physical|Power against the creature grabbing you. Alternately, you can use Acrobatics. If you win, you escape and can move away with your next action if you choose.

>>15377735
bonuses should only be to rolled dice, penalties should be to kept dice. all this +1k1/+1k0/+0k1 is too much to keep up with. I don't want to have to keep looking this shit up all the time. just say +1 and we'll all know it means +1k0

We don't have opportunity attacks in this game.

>>15377171
Revised Idea. Players at character creation receive:
- 1 non-magical armor
- 2 "use" items. One-handed weapon, shield, magic wand/rod, spell, or magical song. Must be appropriate and approved by the GM.
- Rupees.

>>15377762
There are already effects detailed that add to kept dice rather than rolled dice. It might just be something we have to keep track of. I'm personally fine with it, but that could just be me.

>>15377768
I noticed they weren't in. I wasn't sure if that was intentional or just hadn't been gotten to yet.

>>15377873
>There are already effects detailed that add to kept dice rather than rolled dice. It might just be something we have to keep track of.
I agree with this. It might just seem like a lot to keep track of if you're unfamiliar with the mechanics or prefer super-lite systems. Chances are good that you won't have more than a one or two modifiers to keep track of at any given time.

There's a lot to look at and a lot to say about the suggested additions, but I can't do it now.

Last thought for tonight: Don't reinvent the wheel.

>>15377762
Or...just say +1k0, +1k1, or whatever. If it's spelled out in the effect, that should be fine. Frankly, the "bonuses add to rolled, penalties subtract from kept" strikes me as more complicated than just spelling out what the bonus is.

>>15377735
>>15377737
We already have mechanics for charging/shoving and grappling in earlier threads (though I'm guessing nobody ever added them to the wiki), and the all-out attack you suggested seems flatly inferior to simply making two normal attacks. I don't think opportunity attacks are a good idea for this system, either -- it's an added layer of complexity that I don't think is really necessary. Feinting seems like something that should be a technique, albeit a basic one.

The only thing of those suggestions I think is worth keeping is the total defense. If we have active defense apply against a single opponent, total defense applying to all attacks makes sense.

>>15377873
>There are already effects detailed that add to kept dice rather than rolled dice.
all of which are still subject to change

>>15377913
>if you're unfamiliar with the mechanics or prefer super-lite systems
I'm quite familiar with the mechanics and this was intended to be a super-lite system from the start.
>Chances are good that you won't have more than a one or two modifiers to keep track of at any given time.
If there's a bunch of different spells, techniques, and combat maneuvers that all give different variations of +xky then chances are I'm going to be saying "wait, is that just +1 to dice pool, kept dice, or both?" more than I should have to
It's much simpler to know that bonuses always increase your CHANCE to succeed and not the DEGREE to which you may succeed

>>15377854
I don't think we should lock characters into picking any particular kind of items; rather, players should be allowed to pick a certain number of items (probably 3) from a specified list of possibilities, ranging from armor to weapons to spells to tools to miscellania. If someone wants to go without armor to get an additional spell or item, that option should be open to them.

And of course, simple, inconsequential things like ordinary clothing should be free.

>>15378097
>If there's a bunch of different spells, techniques, and combat maneuvers that all give different variations of +xky then chances are I'm going to be saying "wait, is that just +1 to dice pool, kept dice, or both?" more than I should have to

If they're all noted as +XkY and you're keeping track of them as such (as in, literally saying to yourself "plus eks-kay-why"), it's not hard to keep track. That's the whole point of the abbreviated notation. It's not that difficult.

>>15378097
>...all give different variations of +xky then chances are I'm going to be saying "wait, is that just +1 to dice pool, kept dice, or both?" more than I should have to
If you're familiar with the mechanics then why is this a problem? XkY is pretty clear even when stated in several different forms. It might just be the way you're reading it that makes it ambiguous.

>>15378108
Yes, 3 items of player choice seems okay. That way the Deku fire mage can take all three of those delicious spells.

>>15378088
I used the rules for charging already in place. Couldn't find the rules for shoving. As far as All-Out Attacking goes, my presentation stipulated that you can only make a single attack-type action on your turn, unless allowed to make more by a Technique, such as dual-wielding. Right now the wiki doesn't detail how attacking more than once in a turn works, as there is only a passing reference made in the Dual-Wield technique description.

Keeping attack actions limited in a round keeps combat flowing from one person's turn to the next, though there will be options available for characters who want to spend their whole turn attacking, of course.

>>15378010
but that was my whole character concept. :(

>>15378108
I'm okay with this. Now we just need to categorize what is available as "Starting Gear" and what must be purchased or found as treasure.

>>15378097
I'm with >>15378088 and >>15378125 on this. It will become second nature after some time playing, and it opens up options for some bonuses to increase chance, while others increase degree, and choosing between them.

Hey OP and everyone else, I'd just like to say that I love this concept, and, while I have no skill sets I can use to contribute to the creation process at this point, I would love to play test early versions of this game to contribute there. I'm one hell of a beta tester.

Best of luck with the project, it's looking kickass so far.

>>15378010
Unless the wheel is currently square, certainly. I think we should playtest before any major changes are made.

I've worked on this for about 12 hours now, so I'm off for the evening as well. Goodnight all.

>>15376999

It does look better. And I donno how to add the picture to the wiki, you need to apparently save the file to a hub, or some crap, plus you need an account.

Oh by the by, while I'm heading off to sleep, don't hesitate to throw me requests.

>>15378167
Currently, attacking more than once per turn works like this:
>First action: Attack
>Second action: Attack
Very simple. No special rules or modifiers. The dual-wielding rules on the wiki are from very early in the development process, and have little bearing on the system we've been working with since. Dual-wielding needs a lot of looking at again.

Also, I have no idea where the the charge rules you're using came from; last I checked charging/shoving worked more or less as follows:

Charge
Double action
Move up to twice your speed in a straight line, but you must move at least 2 spaces. If you encounter a creature in the path of your charge, make a modified Physical Power check, adding 1k1 to your roll. The opponent may choose to oppose with either Physical Power or Physical Wisdom. For each success you score, you push the opponent back 1 meter and deal 1/4h of damage. If you score more total successes than the opponent, you may instead choose to push the opponent 1 square out of your path and continue your charge. In this case, the opponent takes no damage, but is knocked prone if you scored at least two more successes than he did.

Making an actual weapon attack on a charge requires a technique.

So is there an instrument for every race? Like Deku get horns/violin, humans get ocarina, Gerudo get war drums, etc.?

>>15378207
There's nothing for them to give you really... just grab some d6s and the wiki page and try it out with some friends, taking notes on rule contradictions and weaknesses of the system, and then report back.

Since we're on the subject of dual-wielding, I have a problem. Some friends and I are getting ready to try out this system as it's nearing playability, and we're putting together our characters now. I want to play a Rito adventurer who wields the two weapons he earned/had crafted for him as part of his Rite. They are the Ritorang (boomerang, main-hand) and the Riteblade (stylized shortsword, off-hand). Obviously quickie names but they'll have to do. The char sheet so far is pictured.

Would the dual-wield rules apply to this? Or would I just be considered as having one weapon until I can earn dual-wield?

Obviously this is a more extreme case of the dual-wield rule.

>>15380023
as far as I know you can attack with both actions with no penalty and there's no penalty for using your off-hand, so you could use any combination of the two each turn. boomerangs should probably take another action (possibly in the next round) to catch though. i dunno

>>15380023
you only spent 4 of your six points on skills

>>15378681

As far as i know, you can choose to play any instrument you want, just because you are a goron doesnt mean you cant play a stone violin, or a bonefish drum if you are a zora.

>>15380749
>>15378681
Yeah. The only reason Zora Link had a guitar was because Mikau played the guitar. The band had a bassist and drummer, too.

>>15380023
Are you measuring damage in Heart Pieces? As in, 1 damage equals 1/4 heart?
'Cause otherwise the boomerang should be 1/4, with the sword being 1/2.

>>15380023
I would assume that you could wield both at the sane time. We'll find out soon enough if that doesn't work out too well.

Also, why is your current mass 2? How did you reduce your mass?

Also also, someone needs to upload my upstaged character sheet with the dots for the hearts to the wiki. Maybe along with the description on how to use the dots.

So how close to playable is this? It interests me.

>>15380973
Rito have 3 Mass, so I suppose he took the -1 Mass option.
It's an old rule, but I don't think it needs removing.
Or he's a kid.

>>15380999
Closer by the second, I suppose. If you're willing to improvise, I suppose we're close enough.
Prepare to spend a lot of time on puzzles if you GM this, though. It's a huge part of Zelda.
If you're a player you should read up on the Wiki or old threads if you can be bothered. Join in the discussion if you see something that bothers you.

Also, a character concept:
>I AM THE BOTTLE WIZARD
>START WITH A BOTTLE, TWO SPELLS AND A SNAZZY HAT
>FIRE SPELLS FROM BOTTLE

To pick up on an unanswered question from last thread.
How old should the characters be at the start of a game (Minimum age)?
With the Kokiri and Korok the age is not of concern since they are practically immortal, unless you stab them with a knife or light them on fire.
But at what age does a goron become an adult, how old can a zora become and do I have to cut a deku in half to count his age?

>>15381164
There should probably be three ages listed:
Minimum Child Age (-1 Mass, does this include the Speed bonus?)
Minimum Adult Age (No change whatsoever)
Maximum Age (A.K.A., when they tend to die)

Kokiri/Koroks are immortal children, and should only have the minimum age. Let's say ten, since that's what Link was in OoT. Gorons DO age, as seen in Twilight Princess, but I don't know how old a child would need to be (the Goron named Link was seven in OoT, IIRC).

Perhaps have the age for children be AT LEAST 10 years old (the age of Link), and Adults be around 17 (age of Link after timeskip)? It creates a weird vacuum in between, sure, but might be good enough.

(Koroks and Deku probably have a lower age, being plants and all.)

>>15380455

Waiting till I see the other characters and going to spen the last point according to them.

>>15380973

There were two problems had with the character sheet I think need revising. First of all, it asks for the roll of your weapon twice, so there's some redundancy there. Secondly, in the wiki it said that Rito gets mass 3 movement 5, but then is given the special rule Hollow Bones which brings effective mass down by 1. It seems weird not to just list Rito with mass 2 if that's the case. And that's why I listed regular mass as 3 with current at 2.

>>15381085
If that's the case, then your base mass would be 2, and your current mass would be 2 as well. The Current mass section is for when you're wearing Iron Boots or heavy armor. Since your character's mass is normally 2, that's what it should be in the top box.

>>15381164
If you can't figure it out, you could always put "child" or "adult" or "elderly" there.

>>15381330
A child should get -1 on both stats or none, since it wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

>>15381335
It's not about "figuring out".
We could throw the age out of the window alltogether and let every character roam around as long as the players have fun with them.
I was just thinking about (dis)advantages for being very old/young and which races have a rather short/long lifespan and stuff like that.

>>15381333
They have move 7, not 5, and Hollow Boned reduced their Mass Category, not their Mass number.

Trying to make a quick dungeon for playtesters. What ought I to include? I know I'll be including a few monster fights and some puzzles, but what specific things should I go for?

>>15381085

So is the -1 mass thing just an option and not required? I thought I had to take it but the way you worded it I don't have to.

>>15381404
Close combat
Ranged combat
Locked doors
Moveable blocks
Some puzzles with a timer

And as many different races as possible.

>>15381406
Doesn't the -1 thing say that you can move one point from mass to movement or the other way around?
Like, a Rito has 3 mass, 7 movement, but can also have 2 mass, 8 movement or 4 mass and 6 movement.
And the hollow bones don't change his mass only the category, which means that he weights 3 (middle) but is considered light.

>>15381404

You should add some bodies of water too.

Oh hey, evidence for Koroks and Rito being evolved Kokiri and Zora.
http://forums.legendsalliance.com/topic/14202-translation-of-japanese-game-texts/page__st__1410__p__
444763#entry444763
No clue why Zora would change from swimming to flying when the entire world is water, but I guess the games don't need to care about realism.

>>15381391
As is, Movement is directly dependant on Mass. Movement is 10-Mass, so increasing one decreases the other.

Humans have 4 Mass since 6 Movement means that they can move up to 12 meters a round, or 2m/s.

>>15381404
Perhaps a boss of some sort? It should probably have to do with the Item in the dungeon.
Otherwise you can test the Gohma.

Ok, here's a sample puzzle that's more or less inspired by that one room in the Deku Tree.
http://i.imgur.com/U0j4n.jpg

There is a room with a shallow pit and platforms rising out of it. The entrance and first platform are 1m higher than the ground, the second platform is 2m higher, and the alcove at the far end is 3m higher. There is also a small ledge hanging 6m above the ground on the right-hand wall (it can be walked under.)

The room is full of dull-grey crystal switches, none of which  react to being hit. They will only become active once the floor switch in the alcove has been pressed. (a new kind of switch?)

Once it has been pressed, the party has 3 rounds to hit each one of the crystal switches in the room. If they fail, the switches become dull and the floor switch must be pressed again to retry. If they succeed, a small key is deposited on the shaded tile on the floor.

There are pots near the entrance full of Deku Seeds should ammunition run out.

I've noticed this project goin' on for a while...

So, is it done? At least to a playable extent, that is?
I'd love to give this some playtesting.

>>15381715
Huh. Lots of people asking if it's ready for playtesting today.
It's...somewhat playable. We really need playtesting to see what works, though.

Do we have any stats for Bottles? Actually, does anyone have templates for stuff like magic, music, techniques and items?

>>15381715
There's going to be a playtest soon, so watch the thread(s) for more information. The system itself seems to be at about the half way point. Still plenty to work out, but you could manage a game with what's available.

>>15381712
Well there are a lot of switches to be activated.
But I've yet to read how many spaces a character can walk so I don't know.
But that looks good.
They'd have to coordinate their attacks to activate all the switches and the height of the middle platform makes it possible to use a ranged weapon.
I like it.


BTW
Should a character be able to repeat a failed check?
Like someone tries to move a block but rolls too low, may he be able to try again?
I'd say that tests like this should be able to be repeated once, so that a character may (ingame) try it again with a bit more force and if it still wont work then he figures he's just not strong enough.

>>15375938
Or there's this.

It's far, far in the future after Windwaker. New lands have been discovered. There's a new Hyrule. Because of that, old races have begun to re-emerge, while new ones still exist as well. The Kokiri would exist on land while the koroks would exist on the sea, etc.

No weird timeline merging required.

Guys, we're going through the Three Day loop, except with proposals. I'm pretty sure we hammered out the starting items a few threads back.

>>15381715
>>15381787
>>15380999

I honestly think that playtesting right now isnt a hot idea, I'd say we're about 45% ready, but your welcome to try anyway. We got a system going, it needs more content fine turning.

We need some major work on how magic functions, alot more more techs (racial and standard), and item fine tuning.

>>15381689
>Humans have 4 Mass since 6 Movement means that they can move up to 12 meters a round, or 2m/s.

So is that the way we're doing movement? 1 point of movement = 2 meters?
(Not that I think it's bad at all, just news to me. Which is surprising, since I'm constantly in these threads.)
I assume that would be 2 squares if you use a grid, since 2-meter squares would be HUGE.

Also, I just realized, if we're going with metric for the squares, we should probably convert those overland movement rules here >>15376272

>>15381886
>Should a character be able to repeat a failed check?

I'd say it should be done like in D&D, where you can repeat as much as you like provided it's feasible. If the check is to disable a trap, and failure sets it off, obviously you can't repeat, but if you're just trying to move a block then there shouldn't be any limit. Let the player decide when their character gives up.

>>15381949
So magic is going to be item based, right?
Which means equipping a "magic" takes one round and using it another.
Except for bigger stuff like Din's Fire, which should take one round (at least) to charge up.

Somaria Staff
- Create a solid block (one round)
- Let block explode (one round)

Byrna Staff
- Create magic barrier (one round)
> This clashes with Nayru's love Make one stronger/weaker?

Pegasus Boots
- Charge (one round)
- Move at twice (at least) your current speed

>>15381949
>ingo strangles a moblin.jpg

>>15382043
Hold up, some of these have been posted before. Lemme copypasta from thread 7:

Shield (Wisdom)
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Effect: The target recieves damage reduction of 1/2 heart until caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power. The damage reduction does not stack with armor.

Reflect (Wisdom)
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Requirement: The target must be holding a shield.
Effect: The target's shield gains the Reflective property until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

Armor (Wisdom)
Enchantment
Your clothes shimmer with protective energy as your enemy's blows are magically absorbed.
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Effect: The target recieves damage reduction of 1/2 heart until caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power. The damage reduction does not stack with armor.

Reflect (Wisdom)
Enchantment.
A wave passes through the air and surrounds the sheild, which now glistens and shines like polished silver.
-Cost: 2 MP per round
-Range: 0 or 5
-Requirement: The target must be holding a shield.
-Effect: The target's shield gains the Reflective property until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

>>15382150 cont'd

Fire (Power)
Attack
A bolt of fire roars as it soars past.
-Cost 2MP
-Range: 10
-Success: 1/2H fire damage.

Ice (Wisdom)
Attack
A beam of ice sails through the air.
-Cost: 2MP
-Range 10
-Success: 1/4H Ice damage, and the target's movement is reduced by 1 until the beginning of the caster's turn.

Fairy Form (Courage)
Enchantment
With a word, your body explodes into a cloud of glittering dust, revealing a tiny, flying figure when it clears.
-Cost: 2MP per round
-Range: 0 or 1
-Effect: You or the target Shrinks and gains a fly speed of 6, until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

Shrinking probably needs it's own description.

Shrunk
When shrunk,
-Your mass is 0
-Your Movement is half it's normal value.
-You cannot deal damage to normal-sized creatures.
-You recieve double damage from normal-sized creatures.
-You can fit through grates, holes, and other small openings.
-You get a (+2?) bonus to Stealth towards normal-sized creatures.

>>15382159 cont'd more

Elemental Arrow (Power)
Attack
An arrow is charged with elemental energy before it is fired.
Cost: 2MP (tentative)
Range: Same as arrow
Requirements: Target must be firing an arrow
Success: The effect of a standard Fire or Ice spell (caster's choice) is stacked onto the arrow's damage.

Light Arrow (Power)
Attack
An arrow is imbued with holy power before being fired.
Cost: 4MP (tentative, but remains proportionate to the Elemental Arrow, above)
Range: Same as arrow
Requirements: Target must be firing an arrow
Success: An additional 1/2H of Light damage is stacked onto the arrow.

What do you guys think? I'm thinking the Light Arrow could be more powerful.

Din's Fire - Power
An burst of flame expands out from your square, consuming all in its path.
Attack
Cost: 6
Range: 5 meters
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1.5 hearts of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 5 meters of you.

Nayru's Love - Wisdom
A shimmering blue diamond encases the target, protecting it from harm
Enchantment
Cost: 12
Duration: 3 rounds (?)
Range: Personal or 1 meter
The subject is immune to all damaging effects for the duration of the spell, but the caster cannot use any magic power until the spell ends.

Farore's Wind - Courage
You instantly warp to a previously designated point.
Travel
Cost: 6
Range: Unlimited
This spell is used in two phases.
The first time you cast it, it sets a magical marker at your current location, which is visible to you as a floating green orb but undetectable to all others.
Subsequently, you can cast it again to instantaneously warp back to the marker you set previously. This erases the marker; you must set another marker before you can warp again.
You may transport yourself and up to one additional creature for each rank you have in |magic|.

>>15382171
Magic Cape - Wisdom
You become undetectable and untouchable, moving like a ghost.
Enchantment
Cost: 20 (sustained)
When activated, you become invisible and incorporeal. You are immune to all attacks and can pass through solid objects unimpeded. You must pay the magic cost every round at the beginning of your turn in order to maintain the effect, though you may choose not to pay the cost (in which case the effect ends immediately). If you don't have enough magic power to pay the cost, the effect ends.

Cane of Byrna - Wisdom
You are surrounded by a protective field that protects you and adjacent allies from harm, and damages enemies who get too close.
Enchantment
Cost: 15 (sustained)
When activated, this item produces a force field around you in a 1 meter radius. You and any allies within the field are immune to all harm, and any enemy that comes in contact with it takes 1 heart of damage for each round it touches the field. You must pay the magic cost every round at the beginning of your turn in order to maintain the effect, though you may choose not to pay the cost (in which case the effect ends immediately). If you don't have enough magic power to pay the cost, the effect ends.

Cane of Somaria - Power
A cube of solid matter appears out of thin air, then explodes in a burst of flame.
Creation
Cost: 2
Creates a 1m cube of solid matter with mass 6 occupying the space directly in front of you. If that space is occupied by a creature, the creature is displaced to the square opposite you from the block, and takes 1/4 heart of damage. The cane can be activated a second time without paying any magic power to detonate the block, dealing 3/4 heart of [Fire] damage to all creatures within 2 meters, though you are immune to this damage. Blocks created by the Cane of Somaria also detonate in this way if attacked. You may only create one block at a time.

>>15382178
Fire Rod - Power
The air shimmers as a searing bolt of flame streaks toward the target.
Attack
Cost: 4
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 1.5 [Fire]
Enemies damaged by this attack catch fire for 2 rounds, taking 1/4 heart of damage each round.

Ice Rod - Power
A frigid blast of magic encases the target in solid ice.
Attack
Cost: 4
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 0.5 [Ice]
Enemies damaged by this attack are frozen for 2 rounds. A frozen enemy can take only 1 action per round, moves at 1/2 its normal speed, and takes an additional heart of damage from physical and/or fire-based sources.

Ether Medallion - Power
The air crackles with electricity as bolts of lightning strike your foes.
Attack
Cost: 8
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 3/4 heart of [Lightning] damage to all targets within 15 meters, or 1 heart per success if the target is airborne. Creatures damaged in this way are stunned (lose one action on their next turn).

Quake Medallion - Power
Striking the ground beneath your feet, you cause a violent tremor that damages groundborne foes and knocks them off their feet.
Attack
Cost: 8
Requirements: Must be standing on a solid surface
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. All groundborne creatures within 15 meters take 3/4 heart of damage per success and are knocked prone. This spell also destroys breakable objects in its area of effect.

Bombos Medallion - Power
Fiery explosions rip the air asunder, devastating your foes.
Attack
Cost: 8
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1.5 hearts of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 15 meters. This spell also destroys breakable objects in its area of effect.

>>15382186
>>15382178
>>15382171
>>15382159
>>15382150

So, obviously some of these need tweaked for balance (like I'm pretty sure we agreed in a recent thread the Fire Rod should be 1h increments, not 1.5, and the Cane of Somaria probably needs a nerf on the detonation), but at least we have a good base to work with for canon magic.

>>15381985
Nah. It's just that you have two Actions each round, and you can use each one to either move, attack or use an item. So double moving is 12m/round for humans.

>>15381085

>GORON BOMB-MAKER
>I HAVE MY BOMBS FIELD-TESTED
>PERSONALLY

>>15382425
>GORON ASSASSIN
>KILLS PEOPLE ALL SNEAKY-LIKE

>KOKIRI WARRIOR
>I DON'T WANT TO GROW UP

>DEKU PYROMANIAC
>SOMEONE ALREADY MADE THIS

>LIGHTWEIGHT DEKU CHILD
>MASS=0, SPEED=10
>START WITH THREE RANKS IN |HEAVY|
>IT'S ON NOW
>CHARGE EVERYWHERE, DEAL MASSIVE DAMAGE

>>15382500
>KOKIRI WARRIOR
>I DON'T WANT TO GROW UP
>I'M A TOYS-R-US KID

>>15382512
>PETER PAN HAS GREEN CLOTHES AND A FAIRY
>HE IS FOREVER A CHILD

>KOKIRI HAVE GREEN CLOTHES AND A FAIRY
>THEY ARE FOREVER CHILDREN

Which brings me to my next character:
>MALE GERUDO IN TERMINA
>BE AWESOME KING OF PIRATES
>HAVE A HOOK AND HATE DODONGOS

GORON WITH A HUGE AXE.

ROLLS WITH HIS AXE AT HIS SIDE LIKE A ROMAN CHARIOT WHEEL

>>15382500
>GORON PAZIFIST
>I WANTED TO SMASH HEAD WITH STONE BUT THEN I EATED IT.

>DEKU MASOCHIST
>LIGHT ME ON FIRE AND I'LL LEAD YOU THROUGH THE CAVE!!!

>HYLIAN HIPSTER
>I WAS LOOKING FOR THE TRIFORCE BEFORE IT BECAME POPULAR.

>>15382572
So Jimmy plays a male gerudo.
>But I wanted to be a male gerudo too.
Too late, now you'll have to wait 100 years. He might even be dead by then.

So I know the races are done with already, but there are a couple you guys might not have considered.

Of this image, the only realistic ones that could be practical for PCs would be the Anouki or Subrosians. But there could be a Minish who got enlarged somehow as well.

>>15382601

We have. Along with Tokay Moblins Stalfos Skull Kids and them lizard people. But we have bigger fish to fry.

That and I'm not too thrilled about going back to edit the race list drawings any time soon. (Gimmie about a half a week tops. Heh.)

>>15382601
I DON'T SEE DWARVES OR TOKAY IN THAT IMAGE
DO YOU?
Oh, and Vaati was a Minish who got enlarged. it could work.
(And then you could include shrinking to minish size as a mechanic! A WORLD IN EVERY TILE)

Oh, and someone made Racial Techniques for Subrosians waaay back. They aren't forgotten, just obscure.
Then again, Koroks and Twili only appeared in one game...

>>15382601
Subrosian, yes.
Anouki, well I wouldn't want to play one.
Minish, might be a tad hard to actually do stuff or get people to even notice you.
Ooccoo, NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE

Subrosian 4 mass, 6 movement
- Immune to fire damage
- Somethign negative

>>15382633
Personally I'd love to be a Minish Assassin.

>Sneak into houses at night through the cracks under their doors.
>Dump poison directly into their mouths as they sleep.

Playing a character nobody can see might be a bit overpowered though.

>>15382685
>Playing a character that can be squished under a deku's foot might be a bit underpowered though.
Fix'd

>>15382629
We could probably cut down on races as is, if that's what you're worried about.

So: How many techniques should be available for each rank of a skill? How many should there be for each race?

>>15382685

It would also go against the fluff in Minish Cap, which puts them as friendly folks who move into a house and help the larger occupants unseen.

>>15382717
Yo.

>>15382717
Does Vaati know that?

>>15382710
>So: How many techniques should be available for each rank of a skill?
2 or 3 should be good for a maximum number. Possibly only one or two per skill rank for different types of characters (ie. one for defensive, balanced offensive, mobile offensive, etc; not so rigidly defined, of course). Techniques which require skill ranks in multiple skills, which will probably make up the bulk of techniques, wouldn't count towards the limit proposed above.

I'd love to see a dungeon full of Minish that cooperate with the heroes to solve puzzles / kill the boss.

As PC races, they would have to be human sized at least half of the time to be useful. Maybe they could change size without the use of a Minish Portal?

But I digress, those races can wait until we get things playtestable. (By the way, thank >>15382150 for reposting my AoL spells.) I'll try my hand at some starter songs.
>>15382159

>>15382745
I recognize you!

Hey guys I haven't really been following your threads, but I just wanna know.
How close until this thing is playable?

I just want to play a Terminan Clock Town mask maker, hunting for exotic ingredients for some rather special masks...

Will there be classes?
Or can the players just pick whatever they want to specialize their character?

>>15382823
See >>15381949

>>15382828
No classes, only races. Players can design and advance their characters however they choose.

>>15382745
>>15382757

An exception to the rule and you damn well know it.

Techniques, techniques...

Maybe
Fast Shot
* Requirements: |Ranged| 2
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
Draw bow and fire a shot in a single action.

Dual Shot
* Requirements: |Ranged| 3
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
Fires two arrow in one action.

>>15383000
I was just thinking of these, very nice.

Song of Embers
Wood and flame heed your song.
Double Action
Level 2: One Burning object or creature within 10 spaces of you now burns half as fast/ takes half as much damage from the Burning.
Level 3: Choose a source of fire within 10 spaces of you. Make a Music attack against each enemy adjacent to the fire source, dealing 1/4H (torch), 1/2H (campfire, brazier) or 3/4H (bonfire) of fire damage per success.

Rider's Song
This tune summons your faithful companion to your side.
Double Action
Level 1: (Overworld) You call your mount. If your mount cannot reach you, you will know.

Kokiri's Song
This bright song calls to mind fey creatures and mysterious forests.
Double Action
Level 1: This song is really catchy!

>>15382823
Its playable, but it's far from complete. The mechanics are all in place, but we're a little short on character advancement options like techniques and specific magic spells and songs.

>>15382710
No no im not suggesting cuts with what we have I was only joking to be lazy and not have to draw like five more races to the list when we already have 10 playables.

Kokiri Racial Tech.

Fairy Light
* Requirements: Kokiri
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
* MP Cost: 0, Can only be used once a day (or so)
The fairy uses a lot of strength to shine espacially bright. Everything around her appears as such it would be in broad daylight.

>>15383000
Maybe extend those to work with thrown weapons as well?

Fast Shot
* Requirements: |Ranged| 2
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
Ready a ranged weapon and make an attack with a single action.

Dual Shot
* Requirements: |Ranged| 3
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
Attack with a ranged weapon twice in one action.

I'm not sure if bombs should be allowed to be used this way since that would probably create some problems.

>>15383189
Maybe just small ranged weapons.

>>15377334
Perhaps they should have Vices and Deficits, you know, the opposite of Virtues and Attributes?

>>15383189
Fast shot could work for all ranged weapons. The other one is hard to justify for crossbows, boomerangs, or thrown objects.

Maybe a separate multiattack technique for thrown weapons?

>>15383217
Well, Ganon was a villian. He MOST DEFINITIVELY had Virtues.

What about this for notation:
>xP/xW/xC
>xP/xM/xS
My inner mathematician screams at the variables, but it might work.

>>15383241
It should only work with objects that are currently wielded, yeah. Though if it's a Dual Shot, should you really be able to target two separate things with that technique?
Also DOUBLE CROSSBOW WHOOO
Perhaps crossbows need one action to reload, but do damage on |Heavy|-level?

Or crossbows ARE |Heavy|. AWW YEAH

>>15383241

I think bombs and other explosives should have a separate tech tree. Throwing multiple bombs, as hilarious as that would be, could create a number of problems--least of which is being indiscriminate ("sorry deku-pal, I didn't notice you under the pile of bombs I tossed"). Nevermind Bomchu's, which travel of their own accord at breakneck speed.

Perhaps ones that let you throw them farther, shorten the time needed to explode, or even just let you throw the bomb faster by shortening draw-and-pull time ("Cut Fuse" for instance). Heck, I can imagine one that lets you roll a bomb along the floor to get it underneath enemies or small spots, though to what end that would be useful is debatable.

>>15383217
The Virtues themselves aren't really good or evil (Ganondorf embodies the triforce of Power, after all) so there's no need to rename them. As far as monster statistics go, it's probably worthwhile to stat them out like players, generally speaking. Attributes, Virtues, Skills, etc. They could be shoved beneath the main monster statistics, only there as a just-in-case.

Although, another part of me is saying that it's too much to bother with. Maybe ONLY Attributes and Virtues, ignoring skills and such?

>>15383241
>>15383286
Yeah, maybe we should just have a separate technique for thrown weapons.

Double Toss
* Requirements: |Ranged| 3
* XP Cost: ?
* Actions: 1
Attack [a target](?) with two non-explosive Thrown weapons in one action.

>>15383286
>Or crossbows ARE |Heavy|. AWW YEAH

>GORON WITH CROSSBOW
>"IT COSTS 12,000 RUPEES TO FIRE CROSSBOW FOR 10 SECONDS"

>>15383314
>shorten the time needed to explode
Just cut the damn fuse.

>>15383329
Skullkid Scout
>If you where from where I was from, you'd be fucking lost!
>Grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, I'm afraid of people.

>>15383334

The tech would allow you to do it safely without risk of blowing yourself up. Cutting a fuse to go off on the time you want it to isn't simple.

Also, possible ranged tech: ricochet shot? Lets you bounce a shot off a wall or other smooth surface (potentially a shield?). Could apply to bows and crossbows, and even thrown objects.

>>15383369
Welp I know what im drawing when I get home.

>>15383326
I think it'd probably be a good idea to give monsters Virtues and Attributes, but instead of a complete skill list just have listed bonuses for attack, defense, and anything else it might have skill in beyond the base Virtue/Attribute combination.

>>15382786
I don't know if I like the idea of a maximum number of techniques for a skill, since techniques are the way you add pizzazz and tactics to your character. It would suck to want to make a character with a certain fighting style only to find that "nope, no techs for that, and you can't make more because that skill is full".
However, we should try to make a *minimum* number of techs for each skill. Though I can see certain skills, such as |alchemy| and |sway|, having fewer techniques than others.

Speaking of skills, there was talk before of having |lore| and |perception| skills, which are no longer/never were on the wiki. Do we want to have these as skills, or should we do them as suggested in the previous thread through low-cost, no-skill-prerequisite techniques that give a static bonus to the relevant subject matter? A sort of "pseudo-skill" setup for these things that may not be broad enough to justify having their own skill?

>>15383414
Speaking of. Didn't we have a shield reflect tech too?

From the wiki.

Shield Attack (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 2, |Melee| 1
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 1
As a single action this person is able to thrust his shield forward striking an enemy, dealing Knockback 2 and forcing them to lower their shield.

Shield Bash (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 3, |Melee| 1
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 1
As a single action this person may thrust his shield forward at his targets head. If the target has his shield up then he suffers Knockback 2 and is forced to lower his shield, otherwise he is Stunned.

Shield Slam (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 4, |Melee| 2
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 2
As a double action this person may, from a static standing position, put all of his weight into his shield shield slamming it into an enemy dealing Knockback 2 and Knockdown.

Charge (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 5, |Melee| 2
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 2
As a double action this person may charge, running at full speed with his shield in straight path dealing Knockback 2 and Knockdown to everyone he hits until he has finished moving or fails to push one aside.

Shield Throw (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 4, |Ranged| 1
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 1
This person may throw his shield as a Range 5 physical power attack.

Guard and Attack (Active)
>Requirements: |Shield| 3
XP Cost: ?
Actions: 0
As a free action this person may raise his shield as a Defense action whenever he could make another action.

>>15383456
I think so, yes.
Someone really needs to go through the old threads and compile all the technique proposals that were statted out, 'cause there are a lot that seem to have been simply forgotten. I could do it myself sometime today, but it would be another couple of hours at least before I could get to it.

>>15383455
|Perception| is just a straight Spiritual Wisdom roll most likely. Adding it as a skill would be nice though.

>>15383497
Hmm. A quicker way would to check the summary, but it might not have all of them.
Any in particular you're thinking about?

>>15383529
I like the idea of |Perception| as a skill and mainly proposed it as a means of countering |Stealth|. Like I said in a previous thread, though, I think it should be called something else like |Acuity| so that we could potentially fit more under it.

>>15383455
Was there ever a consensus on |Lore|? It seems like it might be cool, though I'm not sure if its uses are varied enough to warrant a skill.

>>15383585
I say that Lore implies slightly more knowledge than a simple Mental Wisdom check. Much like Acuity implies you being more aware of souroundings than simple Spiritual Virtue.

The issue with Lore is that there's nothing to roll it against. Mental Wisdom rolls seem adequate.

>>15383455
Attack and Defense are already a part of the monster profiles, so that's taken care of. I think maybe it should just be Att./Vir. Keep things as simple as possible. They could have whatever bonuses or penalties the GM thinks they should have for tasks beyond what's listed.

Anyone have any feedback for >>15383495 ? I slapped on whatever skills seemed appropriate at first glance, so I doubt they're what SHOULD be.

Also, maybe we should go back to setting topics of discussion? These last few threads seem to go all over the place. While it's not necessarily bad, we might be able to make more progress in any given area if we focus on it alone, deviating only as is absolutely necessary.

>>15383673
>>15383603
>>15383585
>>15383529

Hence my idea of using "pseudo-skills" -- these are things that we'd want to be able to have characters specialize in above and beyond the simple Virtue/Attribute rolls they're based on, but they might be too narrow to justify as skills unto themselves. Thus, rather than making skills for them and worrying about coming up with techniques for them and such, players could simply purchase bonuses to rolls related to these things as low-cost techniques with no skill prerequisites. Something like:

>Lore
>Cost: 2 XP
>Passive
>No prerequisite
>Your studies have yielded knowledge above and beyond what is commonly known.
>When you learn this technique, choose a subject, such as "History" or "Religion". You gain a +1k1 bonus to Mental >Wisdom rolls made to recall stories and facts related to your subject of choice.
>This technique may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you may apply the bonus to a new subject, or to a subject you have already studied. The bonuses from this technique are cumulative -- for example, if you take Lore (History) twice, you gain +2k2 to checks made to recall historical information.

I definitely think this should be the case for lore, but perception could potentially be justified as its own skill, particularly since we'll need a way to oppose |stealth|. I don't think "acuity" makes it all that much more broad than "perception", though -- they strike me as being roughly equal in breadth of connotation, and "perception" feels like it gets the point across better than "acuity".

>>15383771
Instead of taking it multiple times at a low XP cost, maybe give a flat bonus of +2k2 and double the XP cost. That way it's definitely not a skill, as it more or less is as shown. An attribute/virtue prerequisite might also be worth considering, such as Mental or Wisdom 2 or 3.

Either way, I support the idea of SOME means of increasing knowledge.

>>15383915
I prefer this option.

Let's keep coming up with ideas for starter spells and techs. What else do we need after those?

>>15384858
After starter techniques and spells:

>Define XP cost and pre-reqs for techniques and spells
>|Perception| as a skill?
>Add Attributes/Virtues to monster profiles?
>more songs (?)

Those are possible areas of discussion that I divined from this thread alone.

>>15381391
>>15381330

GUYS. Srsly. There doesn't need to be different stats for ages. This is a franchise where a 10-year-old saves the world just as well as a 17-year-old. "Realism" is not, and never will be, a concern for Legend of Zelda-based games, including this one.

>>15383455
I'm in agreement with first 2 points. Lore should probably be its own skill, Mental|Wisdom. Perception needs to be included, and it should probably be a skill so it at least has a chance of matching Stealth rolls. OR, you could say that in order to hide from somewhat your Stealth rolls needs a number of successes equal to the potential observer's Spiritual score at a magnitude of success equal to their Wisdom, or vice versa?

>>15385073
>>15384858
Alrighty, it's technique/spell time, then. Should character be given a different pool of experience for starting techniques/spells than the 6 they get for skills? I'd say it's a good option, maybe give them 4-6 for that specifically. Or perhaps just a larger starting pool of xp to spend? Looking at a few generated characters, you really don't get to start with much as-is, and all they have is skills.

>>15385231
They don't get XP to spend on Skills, though.
>Skills cost 1x next level
>1st:1XP, total 1
>2nd:2XP,3
>3rd:3XP,6
>4th:4XP,10
>5th:5XP,15
>6th:6XP,21

>Chargen
>Max of 3, one point=one rank
>1st:1,total1
>2nd:1,2
>3rd:1,3

Well, it's midnight here in europe. See you later, everybody.
Don't forget to archive, we're on 225 posts.

>>15385352
Right, sorry. Confused xp for straight-up points. Should characters get a set of points to spend on techniques at generation? Or more points, and choose between skills and techniques?

>>15385469
That was my suggestion last thread, yes.
(Exp for both.)

>>15385073
I'm agains giving monsters full stats: using set accuracy rolls for attacks and defense is far simpler on monster makers and on GMs running the monsters.

If a monster ever needed to make a plain grapple check (which monsters that grab already have as a part of their attack) or perform an action not listed in their statblock (which they usually won't need to), the GM could look at the table of rolls, pick one of the monster's threat level that seems right (a low accuracy roll for a keese trying to push a block, for example) and use that.

Having to provide a full set of stats for each monster would be a nightmare. Enemy NPC's could be the exception, but only occasionally.

>>15385231
It's been discussed in past threads. And spells arent bought with XP.

>>15385469
I believe the plan is to give a few XP (probably 2, which would be one basic technique, or two basic racial techniques for a human subrace) for techniques, but leave skills as-is. It would be nice if we could just give XP for both skills and techs at startup, but to approximate the current system we'd need to give out 14 XP (allowing for 2 skills at 3 ranks each, plus one basic tech) which could be a real headache to balance.
However, I suppose we could allow players to spend their starting XP on additional skill ranks rather than techs if they choose. So you get the 6 skill points, allocated on a 1-for-1 basis, with no skill allowed higher than 3 to start, then you get 2 (or more, possibly) XP, which can be spent on either techniques or additional skill ranks (with these ranks purchased at the usual scaling cost for character advancement).

I doubt it would ever be a *good* idea to spend the XP on skills rather than techs, but it is an option we could give.

Also, keep in mind that spells are treated as items, not techniques, and would come out of your starting equipment slots, not XP.

>>15385512
I'm going to disagree on giving them stats being somehow more difficult. Anything that involves looking up a table or adjucation invariably takes longer. A simple layout, as described in >>15383286 doesn't take up much room and adds a quick reference for things like initiative, grapple, resisting effects, etc. It'll be much quicker and easier to run that way, instead of having to basically make it up or take a minute to look over a list, and doing the latter might not be appropriate for the monster in question.

Basically, having a completely different mechanics system for monsters/NPCs than we do for PCs is only going to complicate things in this case. Even in 4E D&D, where monsters' attack bonus, damage, and hp are determined totally differently, still has PCs and NPCs use the same stats and skill calculations.

>>15380290
I really do feel the need to say this again, I'm sorry. There's a reason I can't think of a published system that allows you to attack more than once in a round without penalty or a special requirement. "But then you can't use active defense!" some might say. But what if you don't have any ranks in Shield or Acrobatics? Just go 4 Physical, 4 Courage and you have a 4k4 passive and no reason to actively defend at all. This character picks up a heavy weapon and does nearly twice as much damage as anybody with a different concept, maybe more than twice, I haven't looked at numbers that closely.

Just thought of something else. A Korok fully invested in heavy weapons, flitting about faster than other characters with the biggest weapon around. This is not in fitting with the Zelda theme of needing a strength-enhancer to lift larger things or wield larger weapons. I suggest a mass requirement on weapons. A certain number needed to wield it in two hands, and another number to wield it in one. Techniques and items can increase your effective mass for this purpose.

Sorry this isn't about starting techniques, but it's what I'm running into as I prep to run a campaign.

>>15385694
I think that's a solid way to work xp for starting techniques. I'll most likely use that for my players, giving the 2 xp for techniques or, if they want, more skills.

Oh hey, it's archived now.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15375622

Let's start a new thread before posting any more important stuff.

>>15385735
>initiative
They do need that.
>grapple
Attack roll to grab, Defense roll to escape, this was how it was back when grappling was introduced.
>resisting effects
Defense rolls.

Also, why does having a separate system for monsters make it more complicated than providing them with stats that are only useful for PCs and NPCs? They won't need to do half the things PC's do.

Part of me thinks that you're trying to fix a lot of things that aren't broken.

>>15385822
Why? This thread is still going strong, and making a new thread might make people skip this one and miss out on the progress that being made.

>>15385863
A particular creature might be easier or more difficult to push around than they are to attack, which makes sense. And it's not so much about "fixing" as developing. While NPCs and monsters might not need to do everything PCs do, this shit is going to come up for sure. I just want us to put a versatile system in place to handle the unexpected, and I don't think giving monster/NPCs six extra numbers off to the side is complicating anything. I'm not saying I've played everything, or that there's no other way, but every system I've played or read about gives monsters at least the same base stats used to quantify their capabilities.

It's fine to use attack rolls for grappling, and defense for escaping or resisting, but how about climbing? Jumping? These are just basic examples, and for running a game I'd personally rather have a few numbers on the stat block to tell me what to roll than have to look at some other table or take any time to consider adjucation. It'll take more effort to build, but will be much easier to run when finished.

>>15385917
Sorry, thought thread was autosaging already. My mistake.

>>15385735
RE: using both actions to attack

While I won't deny the possibility that this will prove too powerful/abusable, I'd say we should wait until we get some hard data from playtesting before changing it.
Also, I should point out that you can't use Courage with a heavy weapon; those use Power by default. So if you're loading up on Physical Courage to get a good passive defense, you'll have to use a lower-damage weapon if you want to play to your strengths.

I will agree with you on the monster stats, though. As long as we include the rolls for the things that will come up most often (attack, defense, initiative) rather than making GMs calculate those themselves, I think it would definitely be more efficient for GMs to have actual Virtue and Attribute scores right in front of them to use for the oddball things that might come up, rather than having to refer to a table of possible values and picking whichever one feels right. It'd be a little more work for us on the design side, but it would streamline gameplay considerably.

>>15385950
The only extra rolls I think monsters need are initiative (which was suggested to be done by threat level) and jumping and climbing, like a quick reference Athletics roll. A lot of monsters already have Climb and Jump speeds, so thats not as important for them.

>>15386158
The point I'm trying to make, though, is that we can't anticipate every single thing a monster/NPC might need to do. What if an NPC the party is escorting is secretly evil, and tries to deceive them? Would you use an attack roll for that, or give them a completely separate Deceive value? If you step back from combat, there's quite a bit any NPC or monster might have a need or want to do, and rather than try to anticipate all possible needs, it will be easier to just give them the 6 stats and use those for any of the myriad actions they might take. It'll be more versatile and easier to run when all is said and done.

I'll try creating a few example stat blocks from the info we already have on a few low-level mobs, just to provide something to look at when considering this.

Here's an example using the bokoblin from the GM resources section.

Bokoblin-----Blin
Life: 2-----Mass: 4-----Speed: 6
2 Phys/ 1 Spirit/ 1 Men
2 Pow/ 1 Wis/ 1 Cour
Passive Def: 3k3-----Active Def: 4k3
Stick (Range 1; 3k3; Dmg 1/4+1/2)

Explanation: I gave an active defense value, because many monsters in the games block all the damn time. In the damage section, I changed the listed value of the bokoblin's stick to 1/4, reflecting the value for such a weapon listed on the wiki if a PC were to pick it up, and added a value to overall damage done based on the bokoblin's Power. (1/4+1/2) means: Damage increment 1/4, with 1/2 added to total damage. This is how I noted damage on my own character sheet for my sword.

As we can see, the bokoblin sucks, and is little threat to anyone, but if he wants to climb, jump, swim, deceive, or hide, we have the numbers we need to roll for that right in his stat block, which is still very compact and pretty easy to read if you know what you're looking at.

>>15386340

This doesnt seem overly complicated to me, and i agree that it gives more versatility for the gm to be able to solve some situation that are sure to come up in some encounters.

>>15386340
That's not too bad. The issue I had though, is that the stats would have to line up with the monster's rolls. And for things like Stealth, it doesn't account for skills.

I'd rather give them plain rolls for certain tasks if they needed them, since it scales with monster difficulty and there's no math for the GM to worry about.

(also, where did the 1/4+1/2 damage thing come from?)

>that sworpo

>>15387491
I explained the damage in the post. I do see where you're coming from, but as a GM I'd still much prefer having them with stats that reflect their abilities, and if you need them to have ranks in a skill you can include the 1 or 2 skills in another line without cluttering it much. That's what they do for 4E D&D stat blocks, and it works well. It would still be better than just basing everything off threat level, since some creatures are going to be good at hiding and others will certainly not be.

>>15387671
Forgot to mention, I did make an effort to make the stats match the rolls, it will just need tweaking if I messed up on that. I'll probably work on more like I did with the bokoblin and present them for consideration, probably a few with skills included so we can see how that looks.

>>15381333
>There were two problems had with the character sheet I think need revising. First of all, it asks for the roll of your weapon twice, so there's some redundancy there.
the damage section for weapons is for damage increments. for the sword you would put "1/2h" for damage. roll is where you put your "xky" with that weapon.

>>15387671
That seems confusing. Maybe the bokoblin should be wielding a sword instead. But that's beside the point.

We know how D&D does it, but D&D has a straight rolling system, not a complex roll and keep mechanic. And if you're going to include a line for skills, why not just make a line for rolls and get rid of the monster attributes alltogether? Remember KISS.

As needed: a general Physical roll, and maybe Sway and Stealth are all that monsters would need on top of their defense and attack rolls.

>>15388058

Not what I meant. I circled what I'm trying to point out.

>>15388166
oic
don't really see how that's a problem though

>>15388166
It's asking for your attack roll with the weapon.

>>15388524
yes, but right next to that is the skill used for the weapon to which you can refer for your roll with that weapon, so it is redundant, but like I said, I don't see how it's a problem

>>15388100
The issue is that what's simple to design isn't necessarily simple to use. It's easy for us as designers to say "we'll just list rolls for X, Y, and Z since that's all they should need", but as a GM that will cause problems when you want the monster to do something that's not X, Y, or Z. And such a scenario *will* pop up eventually.

The Virtue/Attribute system is quite flexible just on its own, with most any action capable of being represented by some combination of the two. Any additional changes on top of these are only necessary if you want to represent the monster having particular skill in a specific area (such as combat or stealth). You don't need to list the rolls for every possible action, nor look them up in a table of rolls by threat level, because it's easy enough to say the action uses X Attribute and Y Virtue, and roll accordingly.

Thus, a very basic and unskilled monster (such as the Bokoblin above) would only need rolls listed for attack and defense in the statblock, but thanks to the Virtues and Attributes being listed, it's also easy to figure out what to do for everything from jumping to hiding to pushing people around to bullying someone into submission to just about anything else the GM can think of.

>>15388845
the way I see it we can either have 6 stats that cover pretty much anything you could ever want monsters to do, or we can stat out every action we think we might want monsters to do and hope we have the foresight to cover everything. it seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.

>>15388908
But those 6 stats don't scale up with the player's skills like the set rolls do.

>>15389016
Stronger monsters will have higher stats, and probably more bonuses based on threat level. A certain threat level might receive a +1k1 to attack and defense rolls in addition to their stats, which is easy enough to stat out given the categories already provided. If a monster/NPC doesn't have a certain skill as important, they'd just roll for Stealth or whatever based on their stats, but a simple scaling system for attack and defense is easy enough to include, and really all you need for balance purposes.

>>15389095
>>15389016
So, there are the basic threat categories for monsters. Minimal, low, moderate, high, legendary, immortal. Those last two need some work, but here's an idea.

Minimal: No bonus to attack/defense.
Low: +1k0
Moderate: +1k1
High: +2k1
Legendary: +2k2

Or something like that. Another thing about the current threat scale, though: Bosses shouldn't all be in the same category. They are not, by any stretch, all created equal. I like the concept (though not necessarily the implementation) behind 4E's concept of the solo monster. You want a big scary monster to fight an entire party by themselves, but if that monster is too high-level then your party can't hit them or defend against their attacks.

I propose bosses be constructed similar to how they are in the more recent Zelda titles. Dangerous, and requiring specific actions or a sequence of actions to defeat. Like needing to strike only when they are vulnerable, or disabling one part of the monster before the core is reachable. These can't be too specific or specialized, or a party might not be able to beat them at all, but I think it's a good direction to go with bosses.

>reached byDell
Ohshit my computer company is after me.

>>15389016
We're not talking about players, we're talking about monsters.
And as has been stated multiple times, monsters can have bonuses added to what the stats would prescribe if necessary. You can still build the statblock to get the same rolls we came up with for the threat levels, and by having a complete set of Virtue and Attribute scores listed for the monster you give GMs the proper tools for adjudicating most any situation.

So a basic statblock template would look something like:

<name>
<threat level>
<hearts> -- <mass> -- <speed>
Power X -- Wisdom Y -- Courage Z
Physical A -- Mental B -- Spiritual C
Defense: Passive +akb (<calculated passive defense roll>); Active +ckd (<calculated active defense roll>)
Attack: +xky
<Attack 1>: <Attribute/Virtue> (<range>, <roll>, <damage>)
<Additional attacks as needed>
<Additional skill if needed> (<Attribute/Virtue>): +QkR (<roll>)
<More additional skills as needed>

Which I'll admit looks a little complicated, but that's mostly due to all the <placeholders>. I'm running out of room in this post, but I'll fill in a sample statblock in the next one.

You are making this much harder than it has to be.
We have a table full of rolls that can be easily updated if needed. Why not choose what a monster needs to do from that table?

No offense, but too many suggestions in this thread are about placing new systems on top of older ones. It's getting out of hand.

>>15389226
Sample Monster
Low threat
Hearts: 2 -- Mass: 4 -- Move: 6
Power 2 -- Wisdom 1 -- Courage 2
Physical 3 -- Mental 1 -- Spiritual 1
Defense: Passive +0k0 (3k2); Active +1k1 (4k3)
Attack: +1k1
Bash: Physical Power (Range 1; 4k3; 1/2 h + 1/2 h)
Leap (Physical Courage): +2k2 (5k4)

The stats work out to what would, under the current system, be a low-threat monster with (very) low passive defense, moderate active defense and attack, and a high roll for making bounding leaps. Compare the statblock without Virtues/Attributes:

Sample Monster
Low threat
Hearts: 2 -- Mass: 4 -- Move: 6
Defense: Passive 3k2; Active 4k3
Bash: Range 1; 4k3; 1/2 h + 1/2 h
Leap: 5k4

Somewhat more streamlined, but not too much of a difference, and now you have to go look up the monster threat table and figure out which level of ability is most appropriate every time you want to do something other than attack, defend, or leap. With the full statblock, you simply have to use the values for the appropriate Attribute and Virtue, which are right in front of you.

>>15389292
>Why not choose what a monster needs to do from that table?

Because that requires bringing up that table, and deciding whether the monster in question should have a Low, Moderate, or High roll. Which takes a lot more time than simply glancing at the statblock you already have in front of you and using the appropriate Attribute and Virtue (which you'd be more familiar with, given that it's what the PCs use for the same things).

The table is fine for whipping up new monsters with certain specific abilities, but as a tool for GMs to use for handling monster actions it's considerably lacking compared to just giving the monsters a proper set of stats from the get-go. It's more work for us designing monsters, yes, but it's less work for GMs using the finished product, and that's definitely a good thing.

>>15389292
I'm not sure what table you're referring to. The monster descriptions in the GM resources section of the wiki only deals with attack and defense. Attack and defense are not stealth. I'm not trying to put a new system over an old one, I want to build up the one already in place to be more versatile and thorough. And again, really, I don't see how filling in stats is complicated. I'll do stat blocks for the whole damn list already in place myself if need be (though it will certainly take a while). The template presented here >>15389226 is a fine one to work with, I think.

>>15389347
>less work for GMs
But it's not. You have to look up an entirely different table for skills to see what a Attribute and Virtue that monster would use for that skill, and then you would have to add the appropriate modifier to scale the roll up to the appropriate level.

>>15389393
Wait, what? Why? Playing in the system you would know what kind of roll is used for Stealth, or pushing rocks, or trying swing across a chasm on a rope, or whatever. You would know because players need to know, and if you don't know the GM picks which attribute/virtue combination makes the most sense and rolls with it. Bonuses to skills the monster possesses would be in the stat block. For everything else, there's just a standard attribute/virtue roll. It's pretty much exactly how World of Darkness does it, and that whole system is pretty much an elegant simplicity.

>>15389385
The table he's talking about is here:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPG/GM_Resources#Monster_Dice_Pools

>>15389393
I'm going to second >>15389467 -- seeing as the Virtue/Attribute system is pretty much the core mechanic of the game, it's the one thing you could reasonably expect players and GMs to be familiar with. You'll have a hard time playing any game if you don't know what your basic stats represent, and while our stats system may be a little more complicated than the ones used in other games, it's not exactly a labyrinth of esoteric details either.

>>15389393
> entirely different table for skills to see what a Attribute and Virtue that monster would use for that skill
wuuuuuuuut...
|Sway| and |Instrument| use Spiritual and can use any Virtue depending on what you're trying to do
|Magic| and |Alchemy| use Mental and any Virtue
everything else is Physical
|Melee| and |Shields| are generally Courage, |Ranged| |Acrobatics| and |Stealth| Wisdom, and |Heavy| Power
That's completely off the top of my head
>and then you would have to add the appropriate modifier to scale the roll up to the appropriate level.
and?

I'm just saying: the whole point of having straight rolls for monster attacks and defense was to streamline them for GM use. I know as a GM I would rather be able to quickly tell what a monster needed to roll. If it ever needed to do something outside the box, I would be able to assume how good it would be at that certain task.

If you want to try and revise that, wait for a consensus, because right now it's like the same few people arhuing for one idea. Give it time to sit.

I also agree with adding the Attribute/Virtue lines to monster stat blocks. There really isn't any reason not to have them since they're a core part of the game. It helps to eliminate some of the guesswork that goes with actions not explicitly listed in the monster's stats.
That said, I don't think it's necessary to list all the sources for attack and defense rolls as shown in >>15389311 . We could very well have attack and defense rolls as they are now (ex. Sword: 4k3) and simply add in virtues/attributes for that increased versatility. After all, we don't need to detail why an enemy is good with a sword, just that it is. We now need only show what its general capabilities are.

>>15389584
> the whole point of having straight rolls for monster ATTACKS and DEFENSE was to streamline them for GM use

Which is fine, and a good idea. But if it's going to be a complete system, it needs to be more robust than that. I want more input on this, but I really don't think the current stat blocks will hold up when playing starts in earnest.

Also, while I don't think we should be afraid of revision (you rarely end up where you begin, and that's usually a good thing), I don't by any means want us to get carried away and change everything that's been built so far. At most what's in place needs to be built up a bit, that's all.

>>15389762
This is a very good point, and will make things a lot easier if we keep it in mind as an underlying concept.

>>15389292
Kokiri, Deku.

"You're green!"

What about this?

Monster (type)
Life: _, Mass: _, Speed: _
P_/M_/S_
P_/W_/C_
Defense: Passive roll, Active roll (kind of defense), Armor
Attack: Name (Range x, attack roll, damage)
Skills: (using rolls here)
Special: 

So that would make
Bokoblin Lackey (Blin)
Life: 2, Mass: 4, Speed: 6
P2/M2/S1
P2/W1/C1
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (Dodge)
Attack: Stick (Range 1; 3k3; 1/4H
Skills: Stealth 4k3

>>15391992
Since all the rolls in the game are treated the same (you roll Guard/Shield to make a shield attack, for example) the preset rolls can work for monster skills too.

Also if it turns out that monsters are underpowered, then it's easy to edit all the monsters at once with Find/Replace.

Also, since I edited the last bokoblin's damage:

Bokoblin Warrior (Blin)
Life: 3, Mass: 4, Speed: 6
P3/M2/S1
P2/W1/C2
Defense: Passive 3k3, Active 4k3 (Shield)
Attack: Machete (Range 1; 4k3; 1/2H)
Skills: Stealth 3k3

>>15391992
>>15392149
Looks good to me.

One thing I've had in the back of my mind that >>15386340 reminded me of is if we want to change the rule about Power adding to damage dealt. I remember at the time it was proposed, each Virtue had a contribution to a core element of the character -- Power added to damage, Wisdom added to MP, and Courage added to hearts. The latter two have since been struck, leaving only Power with such a benefit. And since Power-based weapons are already listed with higher damage increments than other types, this means that a Power-focused character would be a real damage machine.
It's also something that's easy to forget about, as made evident by the confusion over where the +1/2h damage in the statblock above came from.

On the other hand, it is a very good thematic fit, and Power generally doesn't have nearly as much usefulness as the other two Virtues. Courage affects your initiative and passive defense (among other things), and Wisdom applies to a variety of skills and situations, but outside of |sway| (where every Virtue gets a use) and feats of strength (which are only one verys small part of potential puzzles), Power doesn't really have much use besides attacking. So maybe the bonus damage should be kept to keep Power somewhat relevant even for those who aren't focusing on it exclusively.

Now that monsters have stats, what happens with Stealth? it ramains as an unopposed check? or is it gonna be an opposed one?

Well, we seem to have gotten quite off track from the intended discussion point of spells and techniques. At least it was fruitful!

>>15392490
It's most likely going to be opposed by |Perception| since I believe it's the easiest method of scaling one with the other.

>>15392955

so, every monster is gonna have a perception stat? lol, i dont think so, i think it would just be a matter of rolling stealth vs i dunno, spiritual wisdom? thats easier than having to add perception to every freaking monster.

The only reason I don't think that Perception should be it's own skill is because nobody is going to want to put skill points into it.

We can treat it like jumping and climbing: giving techniques that act like skill bonuses.

Speaking of, should we change Acrobatics to Dodge, and have acrobatic maneuvers be treated as plain Physical Courage rolls? It would fit in better with the way athletic feats are treated- as attribute rolls with techniques that benefit it.

>>15392993

Sorry, nevermind me, they in fact have perception, just in the most cases it is going to be rank 0 so you still roll against perception but they wont get any bonus to they roll.

Is anyone ok if i update stealth in the wiki to reflect this?

>>15393072
>The only reason I don't think that Perception should be it's own skill is because nobody is going to want to put skill points into it.
This is a pretty big assumption to make. Already in other games people put into Perception (as a stat or skill) simply so they can notice things. It definitely won't go unused.

>should we change Acrobatics to Dodge, and have acrobatic maneuvers be treated as plain Physical Courage rolls?
That might not be a bad idea, except I'd say Physical Wisdom instead of Courage.

>>15393128
Good point on Perception, actually. I forgot about the scaling issue, and it could be used to find weak spots or hidden secrets too.

Physical Wisdom for balance, Physical Courage for jumping, Physical Power for climbing seem ok?

What would swimming be? Either Power or Courage I would think.

>Gasp unwevac
Gasp!

>>15393287
>Either Power or Courage I would think.
On the wiki it's mentioned under Courage, though I don't think Power is inappropriate.

Hopefully more people wake up soon.

How does armor work, again? Does it take damage off of each attack or off of each damage increment? The latter seems really powerful.

I always loved making dungeon puzzles for my players. Thought I'd take a stab at some dungeon designs:
-----
There are two sides of a bridge-like platform suspended from the roof. In order to reach the crank at the center, the party must split into two groups of equal weight and approach the crank from opposite sides. Once they reach the crank they can turn the bridge to point to two doors on the opposite two walls. The groups must then separate again and proceed up to the next floor to encounter different challenges. If there is more than one way the group can split up their weight evenly then they may have to return and reorganize into different groups if specific tools of two particular members are needed for a challenge up above.
-----
There is a large magnifying glass and around a large obstructing wall an angled mirror below a skylight through which the moon can be seen. Mirrored sarcophagi line the walls. When the players stand beneath the skylight or examine the mirror the lids of the sarcophagi open and large ReDead Knights step out carrying the mirrors as sheilds. The players must lure each one to a differnt spot and face a different direction before playing the sun's song so as to direct the light to the magnifying glass and light a funeral pyre to awaken the dungeon boss.
-----

>>15394050
-----
There is a Gerudo Temple room with six large female statues surrounding a central pit, each carrying an urn, and a massive male Gerudo statue holding a chalice on a pedestal in the center. The room is bowl shaped with six levels and stairs connecting each. On the lowest level is a small circular field of sand. Each statue has a switch at it's base. When a player strikes the switch the base the statue pours it's sand filled urn into the pit below along with four leevers and a lanmolas. Each switch hit causes the sand to rise higher and gives the creatures more mobility around the room as well as releasing more of them. When all six switches are pressed the central statue pours an endless spring of water from the chalice, turning the sand to quick sand and pulling all the remaining creatures into a drain beneath the revealed lowest level where chest waits. The chest holds an item that allows them to open the door and escape the room.
-----

>>15394134
-----
The players run through a hallway where jets of flame ignite the whole passage, ducking periodically into side crevices and cover to shield themselves from the fire. At the end of the passage there is a ramp leading down and away from the hellish hallways of furnace exhaust.
Before them, there is a chest protected by a barrier of flame. There are twenty torches in a circle around the room, each with a single keese sitting upon it. The torches are spread too far around to catch with a single spell (though multiple players with fireballs can do the trick) and there are too many to ignite by deku stick or lantern. Players must instead ignite the keese (which are actually just unlit fire keese) before fleeing the room. They can lure them into the flame jet of the hallway, or use other means that they possess. If the do so, the fire keese, which take no damage from fire, will settle back on their torches and light all of them at once, exposing the chest and the key it contains.
-----
(For a party containing a Goron)
There is a switch on one side of the room but it is rusted. Even the force of your party members pushing cannot depress it. However, there is a ramp on the other side of the room and a manually cranked lift to the top. It takes the efforts of two party members with a combined physical score of 5 to raise the lift. With proper speed and decent aim, a goron could roll and smash into the switch to activate it, opening the door.
-----

>>15394296
-----
(for a Party containing a Zora)
The party walks into a cylindrical room onto a suspended platform with two inactive beamos. Through a glass wall they can see several zora chained in another room submerged underwater. There is a pool of water far below the platform (with a ladder leading back up to the platform) and an underwater passageway that a player could enter. Once a player enters the passageway, bars rise blocking their retreat and the walls are raised to reveal a labyrinth behind a wall of glass. Only the players still on the platform can see it's full extent and must direct their ally through the maze to the chained zora. After a short time, several creatures, including carnivorous fish, like-likes, and spikes will begin moving through the labyrinth. The Beamos will also become active, though their eye beams are not aimed and their heads can be turned manually to attack creatures through the glass. Once the zora are free the three of them along with the swimming party members (or members) will be able to depress the switches throughout the labyrinth to escape.
-----

>>15394302
-----
The party walks into a grated room and hears a rumbling far below. There is cracked metal plate that seems like it will give way if the players use some explosives. As soon as any party member lights a bomb, a strong gust of wind comes from below and knocks any party member with less than 4 mass as well as any bombs (blowing out the fuse) upward into the air and through a tunnel until they strike a net and can climb off into the top of a tower. In the top of the sentry tower there is a set of very heavy pots, some rope and half woven nets, extra bombs, and a heavy crossbow. The pots have a mass of 8 and can be rolled with some effort by anyone with more than 2 physical. Using the pots, the player must assist the players down below either by sending down supplies or returning themselves (though dropping in the pot will cause them to take damage unless they are clever). The players may either use some rope or a net to tie down a bomb to the grated floor before shooting it with the crossbow or place the bomb inside the pot to protect it from the wind while lighting it. Once the fragile grate is destroyed a rope will be released that will be blown all the way up to the tower and can be climbed down against the wind and into the next room.
-----

>>15394418
------
There is a room full of massive blocks (1 meter cubes) that can be pushed and pulled with the effort of two or more people. The players can see a Darknut with its back turned at the other end of the room guarding a door. The door is bound to his essence and will not open so long as he lives. This is intended to take place at a time when the players are not nearly ready to face a Darknut, but there is a solution. The players can move a lot quicker than the Darknut, which lacks ranged weapons, and they can rearrange the blocks to trap the Darknut and, ultimately, crush him as he is unable to push the blocks by himself. The players may need hints about this, so it may be wise to have them shove aside a block onto a switch in the previous room and reveal a blood splatter on the wall and some crushed bones.
-----

>>15394582
-----
There are thousands of tiny hands (mini-floormasters) crawling around the room and a huge eye in the center. The hands are digging through piles of spare bones to rebuild Stalchildren and Stalfos Stalkers which immediately animate and begin walking around the room. When the eye spots the players it immediately directs the skeletons to attack and floats up to the roof to watch the battle. It then turns and directs several of the little hands to grab a magic item from the bone pile (such as a Fire Rod) and run around the room. If the little hands attack the players, instead of dealing damage they steal one unequipped item and begin to run around the room with it. Several of the hands continue to assemble more skeletons at a quickened pace. The players must choose which threat to focus their attention on or how to divide their attention (shooting the eye on the roof with the fire rod temporarily causes all of the hands to stop moving). Once all of the hands are dead, the eyeball falls and dissolves into nothingness.
-----

Hey guys just a quick little heads up, I did some digging around in the old threads and I found the list of drop items off of monsters. I put it all in the GM page.

>>15393664
As far as I know it's off total damage from an attack.

>>15393287
All of that seems good to me. I'm not sure on swimming. Courage seems to be getting used a lot, but is that just me?

>>15393088
I'm fine with an update for that. I think too much winds up not added to the wiki and forgotten about.

>>15392426
Whether or not Power should add to damage... That's a good question. I like it as a system, I've been working with it in little combat simulations. It seems complicated for calculation at first, but after you get the idea down (multiply increment, add flat bonus, done) it's pretty simple. It does mean Heavy weapons will be even stronger, but their damage can be lowered a bit to compensate. If we keep it as is and have Power add to total damage, monsters/NPCs should probably work the same, just for consistency. You're doing that same simple calculation for every player attack already anyway, and it adds a certain level of scariness to monsters with a high Power stat.

You motion your father to escort you towards one of the bazzar's shops. Your friends from school had told you about this new shop, how their parents had all bought them various masks that your classmates felt fit their persona's. Your father hesitates abit at the mention of the shop, but is swayed by your excitement to enter the stand. The man behind the counter gives you a warm smile as a calm voice rings to you the shop's slogan that all the children have been echoing around the bazaar's center. "Remember to have faith."

And this is where the campaign starts.

A WIP image.

>>15395529

Oh, shit. Happy Mask Salesman=bad bad mojo.
I'd play it.

inb4 it turns into Call of Cthulhu

>>15395368
I dunno about the Power thing yet. It's still useful for Magic and probably a lot of techs once we make them. Let's see if it's fine without the additional damage first.

>>15395529
Yessss.

I'll color it later. Had fun drawing some of those masks.

>>15395816
Did I mention that I love your style? Nice work, and do I spy a "Fat Guy Mask?"

Hm..."Troll's Mask"...

Speaking of masks, are they in?

Because I just thought of a weird scenario where a PC dies but his ghost stays behind and someone plays the song of healing, thus giving the party a mask to become the now dead PC while said player re-rolls.

>>15395792
That works, for the time being we'll take out the Power adding to damage thing. I'll edit it out of the wiki for now, but let's not forget about it.

What are the things we need major crunch work done on at the moment? Adding base stats for monsters already detailed, categorizing items for viable starting equipment and adding rupee prices, and hammering out xp costs for techniques. Anything else? What should get done first?

>>15395876
They should be, as well as crafting rules. I want to play a mask maker/salesperson!

I'm thinking complete with sack of materials and a red hood. Maybe inspired by the original Salesman and Termina's traditions?

>>15395948

>IMO

I saw the Mask Salesman as a demi god or acolyte send by the goddesses to foreworn or guide Link to the right path to make things right.

>>15395893
Right now, I think all we need to do is start filling out shose technique, item, spell, song and monster lists. I'm willing to go over monsters and add in special abilities for them.

I kinda want to work on masks too, specifically transformation masks, but I know that it can wait for now.

>>15396078
Sounds like a plan. I'll try my hand at techniques and post xp values for the ones on the wiki here for consideration.

We're getting up on post count. When should we make another thread? When does autosaging start?

>>15394050
>>15394134
>>15394296
>>15394302
>>15394418
>>15394582
>>15394657

Any comment on these or are they too out of line with Zelda-style puzzles?

>>15393664
Armor is off of damage increments, though with the exception of the absolute best-of-the-best armors, they can't reduce the damage increment to less than 1/4 heart. This is all spelled out in the Combat section of the wiki.
And yes, that does stand to be pretty powerful (even with the limit on how far it can reduce damage), but all this really means is that we won't have a dozen different levels of armor like you see in D&D, but rather just two or three, with relatively low ratings. The armor stats on the wiki will probably need to be revised, since I don't think any of them have been tested at all.

>>15393287
Swimming feels best in Courage for me; while it does require a degree of strength, it's not really a "raw power" kind of thing. Coordination and form are just as important as raw strength (if not moreso) for swimming, so with Courage being the "balanced" Virtue that seems most appropriate. Plus there's the whole "adventurous" aspect of it -- braving a roaring river to get to your goal seems a lot more like something a bold and tenacious hero would do rather than a bullheaded and forceful one.

>>15395893
>and adding rupee prices

I don't think equipment (other than ammo, shields, and other things that may need replaced) should be given rupee prices -- it feels very out of place for a Zelda RPG. Equipment, for the most part, should be obtained through quest rewards and dungeon-delving, not browsing through the market district.

There can be exceptions, of course (like the magic armor in TP), but for the most part these can probably be left to GMs to set an appropriate (very high) rupee cost.

>>15396164
Mundane armor and weapons should be available in shops, though. At least at some point. But you're right that most of the useful items will be found as treasure.

I'm back. Sorry, I've been busy lately, end of the semester and all that jazz. What all needs work?

So, I'm working on Techniques and making good headway, but I ran into something. Charge is listed as a Technique, which seems odd to me. Shouldn't that just be a thing you can do? I mean, does -everything- in combat other than a standup attack need to be a technique? What's the opinion on this?

Related note, when I suggested some basic Combat Maneuvers earlier somebody said Feint should be a Technique, which I agree with. I'll include it in my writeup for techniques when I finish and post them.

>>15396503
I believe the current plan for charging was that there would be a basic charge maneuver that anyone could do, which would involve shoving opponents with minimal damage, and then there could be a Charge Attack technique that would allow you to make a weapon attack instead of shoving.

Also, it seems we've hit autosage. I'll whip up a new thread.

>>15396008
I see him as an acolyte, all right, but of something much more sinister. Ever notice what happens with his "sales"? Also, that grin.

OOT- Skull Kid gets mask and becomes confident, later gets lost after being rejected by the other Skull Kids and eventually causes MM to happen.

MM- knows about the three day cycle, has magical world hopping powers, is generally Not Quite Of This World, and yet is content to sit and watch the disaster happen. Also, very eager to get Majora's Mask back- how did he get it and why wasn't he affected by its power before?

Less a benevolent guide than Nyarlathotep in my mind.

>>15396535
Alright, I'll go with that and wait until the next thread to post what I've got.

How would anybody be aver be able to melee sneak attack. It seems to me that the way stealth skill is now it is not posible to create a melee character capable of sneak attacking without the use of flash bomb vanish tech. Last time i checked the stealth write up allowed to make a sneak attack for the next atk you made after stealthing, you would los hidden but you could make a sneak attack, but now you cant, it irks me to think that just ranged characters will be able to sneak attack.

>>15396588
Rules for charging were originally proposed in thread 9; I'll paste them here since they aren't terribly relevant to the new thread:

Charge
Double action
Move up to twice your speed in a straight line, but you must move at least 2 spaces. If you encounter a creature in the path of your charge, make a modified Physical Power check, adding 1k1 to your roll. The opponent may choose to oppose with either Physical Power or Physical Wisdom. For each success you score, you push the opponent back 1 meter and deal 1/4h of damage. If you score more total successes than the opponent, you may instead choose to push the opponent 1 square out of your path and continue your charge. In this case, the opponent takes no damage, but is knocked prone if you scored at least two more successes than he did.

Those who want to make a charging attack can learn the following technique:

Charge Attack
Prereq: Melee 1 -or- Heavy 1
Double action (modifies the charge action)
Rather than simply pushing your opponent, you use the momentum of your charge to press the attack.
When making a charge, you may choose to replace the usual opposed Physical Power check with a melee attack roll. If your melee attack would normally use Wisdom, it uses Courage for this attack roll instead (though attacks that normally use Power or Courage are unchanged). Charge attacks made using a |heavy| weapon still require that you use an action to ready your weapon before using it again, just as a normal attack does.
>Do we want to have a bonus for attacking on a charge? +1 to your rolled pool on the attack, or +1/4h to total damage if it hits, or something?

Certain weapons, such as lances, could be noted as dealing bonus damage when used in a charge. This damage would apply both for normal charges (increasing the damage per success) and for charge attacks (increasing the damage increment).

And speaking of new threads: >>15396589

>>15396646
I'll address this in the new thread; see >>15396814