Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered). Most techniques have a skill or virtue prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Goron, Kokiri, Rito, Zora, Hylian, Gerudo and Sheikah, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can curl into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth). Humans (which include Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah) instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4), and get discounts on certain techniques associated with their race. No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)

Ok last thread had some interesting ideas, its about time we continue working

What needs to be worked on?

>>15496699
We need to resolve how we want to work armor, and make the wiki reflect it. Right now the description of how armor works makes reference to Armor Rating and armor reducing damage increment on a weapon rather than total damage from an attack (which is how it worked before). But the listed armors don't have ratings.

We need to pick which way of working armor we want to go with so we can start testing it. My campaign will be starting in the next week.

>>15499353
I like the idea of reducing total damage instead of reducing the increment, but what about the resistances? Maybe the resistance just adds the armor again? For example, if someone wearing Padded Armor gets hit with an electric attack it would reduce the total by 1/2 instead of 1/4.

>>15499628
That's a good question. The way the races work resistance is by doubling or halving damage from certain sources. I'm not sure that's a great way to work it, but armor is the issue right now.

Having resistance count the armor again against certain type of damage seems alright, but it minimizes the effect of the resistance on light armor and makes it a really big deal on heavy armor. A more standardized approach might be better. Maybe give the resistances a value of 1-3 or so, and each point of resistance reduces 1H of damage of that type? That allows for variation in the usefulness of the resistance without dependence on the type of armor it's on. The numbers can of course be tweak, but how do we feel about that idea?

>>15500078
I didn't even think of the heavy armor, so the standardized approach seems best.

>>15500119
M'kay. So should we come up with a flat-rate way it reduces damage, like saying it's half or only count half the number of successes from the attack, or should it be a direct-reduction value, like 1/4H to 2H depending on the particular thing you're getting the resistance from? And, should resistances stack?

The latter question might depend on the former. Headed to bed. Hope to see some more input on this tomorrow before we move forward.

Personally, I'd say we should strike resistances from the basic armors entirely, since it seems to me that they were just added to make otherwise pathetically weak armors semi-useful. This just clutters the equipment list, IMO -- if a kind of armor is pathetically weak, just leave it that way or cut it entirely, don't stretch to come up with ways to make it appealing that don't entirely make sense. Sure, leather would help somewhat as an insulator, but probably not to such a degree that it deserves to be statted as an electricity-resisting item. And the Deku Shield (and Deku Vestment, which was obviously inspired therefrom) really shouldn't be given a bonus to counterbalance the flammability -- it's supposed to be a mediocre-to-poor starting item that you're intended to want to ditch for something better at the first opportunity. I'd say get rid of the elemental modifiers on those items and instead note that they're particularly flammable, and will catch fire when exposed to a fire-based attack. This will destroy the item and deal damage to you while it burns (something like 1/4h per round for 2 rounds should work).

The only item on there with a resistance that doesn't fall under this is the Blue Mail, and I'm not sure exactly that's coming from -- blue outfits appear in a number of different games, but in none of them do they confer elemental resistances. Most of the time, they're just a defensive boost, with the red outfit conferring either an even larger boost or an offensive boost instead. So that one should probably be remade to better reflect this.

Other things that probably could use revision on the armor: Darknut Half-Plate should probably have 1/2h reduction, not 1/4h, and the Coiled Chain Armor can probably be removed since we've decided to give everyone hyperspace inventories.

I /does/ seem like the armor list is cluttered and confusing. But, I think that we should stay with the damage increment reduction until play-testing proves otherwise. (Again, counteract this with heavy armor only being worn by particularly strong enemies.)

>>15502083
I agree with taking elemental resistance off of armor, but I say have it available on a specific armor like an enchantment.
>>15500078
I like the 1-3, 1H each reduction system for elemental resistance you came up with. Should it also be unable to reduce damage to less than 1/4H? Would it reduce total damage or damage increment?

The armor values also seem like they're confusing. I suggest making a standardized value for armor.
>Light armor: 1/4H reduction.
>Medium armor: 1/2H reduction
>Heavy armor: 3/4H reduction
Each armor class should have an exception (or two) that is unusually protective given its mass and bulk.
Also, do away with "Armor Rating" and just call it by the amount of reduction it gives.

im leaning more towards total dmg reducction, since increments tend to add very fast, even against a medium armor enemy you would be shitting bricks to deal good dmg with some weapons. And it could be really advantageous for pcs wearing em.

>>15502643
If we do go for total reduction, I suggest buffing armors slightly. Somewhere around 1/4H added to each armor value.

>>15502692

That works for me

Why are their Deku AND Korok? Do we need two tiny plant people?

Is not that we need them, they are just options it is always about wether YOU need the two of em or any at all. As i see it, it is up to the GM and the players to decide it.

>>15502903

Shouldn't we make a Terminan race then

Im totally fine about it, if you can come up with good ideas for that particular option and then get a positive consensus about it, we may add it to the wiki.

>>15503015
There can be lots of races added in later, with racial techniques and all, but right now our chief concern is getting the system in working order. Adding supplemental material will be easy after that.

>>15502702
>>15502692
This seems to be where we're leaning for the time being. I'll try reworking the armor list to be better and more standardized.

>>15502083
I'm good with removing resistance from the example armors, but including it on a list of possible enchantments for armors. This will clean things up, and encourage customization of items for GMs, which I think is important. I mean, you aren't going to have an entire party equipped with THE Mirror Shield, or Hookshots for all. People will most likely be creating all sorts of unique relics and special items for their group's needs.

>>15502749
I've been thinking for a while and thought about making koroks and dekus the same race mechanically, and then just change the fluff between them depending on your setting.
>>15503015
Kinda the same thing here with the Termians. They could be a mechanical mirror of Hylians.

>>15503067

Termina (4 M 6Mo)
-Ability to wear and use masks
-Can Choose one Race at character creation. Makes a mask that enables Terminan to transform into said race. May use that races racial techniques at an increased cost

>>15503123
This, if Korok's "evolved" from Kokri you really shouldn't have them in the same setting...

Of course, I'm biased

>>15503158

For the time being we arent considering in adding masks to the game as it is now, we are focusing on other things to make it more playable, so a race that orbits about the use of mask is not a good idea yet. Besides, terminan people is not know for using masks as a mean to transform in other creatures, it is not their racial trait.

ARMOR: I updated the wiki armor and shield list. Normalized it, removed resistances from example armors, and included a brief list of possible additional qualities GMs can add for flavor and customization. Please critique.

Also edited the description of how armor and shields work, including a minimum 1/4 heart damage from attacks. The minimum damage seemed like something the board liked, but I could be wrong. Do we want to include a way to reduce damage completely, or maybe even just not include the minimum?

COMBAT: I want to add a list of basic actions in combat. I posted a list in another thread, but it never got added to the wiki. Would include things like attack, move, basic charge, total defense, etc. Alright if I add that?

PASSIVE DEFENSE: Keep forgetting to bring this up. Ran a skirmish with my group and several stalchilds (stalchildren?). A couple of them got next to our Goron and tore him open in a single round. This was due to him having a 1 Courage and their automatic successes against him. He had the most life and most armor (I let him have the biggest armor available, to test it), and he was gone in a single round because of his Courage.

I propose opening up Passive Defense to Wisdom or Courage. I'd say you could use any Virtue (with high Power, your presence is such that your enemies are wary when attacking), but it's kind of a stretch. Point is that Passive Defense is too important to have chained to a single virtue, so at least allowing Wisdom or Courage would be good. Thoughts on this?

>>15503484
I like the layout of the armor section. It looks a lot cleaner and cohesive, good job here.
I say have an attack do no damage if defense successes match or outweigh attack successes. Keep the minimum 1/4H damage on at least 1 success.
I vote to go ahead and add the basic combat actions.

Shields seems slightly confusing, let me see if I have this straight:
If someone uses active defense with a shield, then that gives them more dice to oppose an attack with. If they don't stop all of the successes with their shield, then they add the shield damage reduction to their armor's reduction (if they are wearing any).
However, if they use only passive defense on an attack, they use only their armor's damage reduction.

>>15503484
I agree with allowing Wisdom on passive defense. Using Wisdom would be like reading an opponents movements and predicting their attacks, while Courage would be more like reacting to an attack and dodging.

>>15503484
I agree, players should be able to use their highest virtue to determine their passive defense. That way people aren't punished for choosing a low wisdom or courage build.

>>15503708
I must disagree with highest virtue for passive. If power is allowed to be used with passive defense, that would allow an incredibly strong heavy weapon and maxed passive defense build all in 1 virtue. Power would then be the best combat virtue by far.
Choosing a high power, low courage/wisdom build means you are focused on dealing out huge damage, not so much at defending yourself.

>>15503780
Good point. I'm up for making passive defense just Wisdom or Courage.

>>15503643
Yes, that's how it's working right now. Should I give an example to clarify? Also, this makes using a shield better than using Acrobatics. I suggest adding something to Acrobatics, some different benefit when used for active defense. Something like being able to move 1 or more spaces after successfully defending. Parry already has the counter attack technique you can invest in. This will make each method of active defense distinct, but one won't necessarily be better than others (arguably).

>>15504103
I like the acrobatics idea. Have them able to move 1 square for every success over the attack, minimum 1 if they match successes. Also make a 2-3 XP technique that doubles this movement.

>>15504103
Oh, and an example on shields on the wiki would be helpful. I think I get it now.

Brought this up in the last thread but it looks like the archive didn't catch it, since it was near the end of its life, but:

I don't know if any discussion has been made on a "default" time setting (wouldn't blame anyone if not, given the state of the timeline), but I was thinking a pretty good time would be post-adult OoT Link, pre-WW, during the return of Ganon but before Hyrule is flooded. If you've seen the beginning of Wind Waker, then you know that there was no Link to save Hyrule and Ganon's monsters roamed the land with no one to fight them. I'd think if there was ever a time for a bunch of heroes that weren't Link to be running around exploring dungeons and fighting monsters, it'd be then.

I also had the idea of a sort of paladin-like order of heroes following the example of Link, garbing themselves in green and taking vows to fight evil and protect the innocent. Kind of a way for someone to play a Link-esque hero without trampling all over fluff.

>>15504355
I like this. There aren't any of the games yet that explore this time in the chronology (as far as I know). Perhaps the "League of Heroes" was started by adult Zelda after Ganon's defeat?

I got to thinking about power and defense again. I still think that power should not be usable for passive defense, but maybe something else can be done. Maybe we could say that high power characters are better able to shrug off damage and give them 1/4H extra damage reduction for every 3 power (for a max of 1/2H at 6 power). It's not much, but it's something at least.

>>15504680
That seems a bit much for giving a bonus to a virtue alone. It could be a technique that requires a lot of Power.

>>15505256
I must say I'm more than a little confused at the link you provided. How is that relevant?

>>15505287
That's a good idea. I'll give it a try

Toughness (Passive)
Prerequisites: Power 3
XP Cost: 2
The character is better at shrugging off damage than the average person and gains 1/4H additional armor reduction.

Improved Toughness (Passive)
Prerequisites: Power 6, Toughness
XP Cost: 4
The character is quite adept at shrugging off even great wounds. The character gets another additional 1/4H damage reduction (total 1/2H before armor is applied).

>>15505377
On second thought, 4 power would be better for toughness 1. If it were 3, it would not be very exclusive.

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2011/07/ocarina-of-time-3d-soundtrack-available-for-download/

Trying my hand at adding Attributes and Virtues to monsters, as well as adding special abilities and putting them into easier-to-read statblocks. Sketches coming soonish.

Octorok (aquatic) 
Life: 2, Mass: 3, Speed: 5 (Swim 5) 
Attack: Rock Spit (Range 10, 3k3, 1/2H) 
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 P2/M1/S1
P1/W2/C1

Keese
Life: 1/4, Mass: 1, Speed: 2 (fly 8
Attack: Bite (Range 0, 3k3 1/4H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 4k3
Special: Flyby Attack: Double Action - The Keese flies at twice its speed and makes a bite attack at any point during this movement. It must land at the end of this movement.
Defensive Flier: Keese are considered to be actively defending while airborne.
P2/M1/S1
P1/W1/C2

Rat
Life: 1/2, Mass: 1, Speed: 8 (climb 8)
Attack: Bite (Range 0, 3k3 1/4H*)
Defense: Passive 3k3, Active 4k3
Special: Thieving - When the rat hits with a bite attack, it can steal either (1d6)x2 Rupees or 1d6 pieces of ammunition from the target.
P1/M2/S1 (Stealth 4k3)
P1/W1/C2

Octorok (aquatic)
Life: 2, Mass: 3, Speed: 5 (Swim 5)
Attack: Rock Spit (Range 10, 3k3, 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3
P2/M1/S1
P1/W2/C1

>>15505377
>>15505519
I like these, and I agree that the first should have Power 4 as a prerequisite.

>>15504680
>>15504355
I like the League of Heroes idea. Also lets people play Link-like characters without it seeming lame, giving it a reason grounded in the setting.

I think we're not going to put too much into a default setting, and focus on making the system usable for any period or realm the GM wants to run. It's not a bad thing to think about, though. A few example setting with some bare-bones descriptions might be really helpful.

As far as the timeline goes, I actually studied this once. OoT was actually the start of it all, the first time the great conflict happened, when the Triforce was first split and when Ganondorf turned himself into Ganon. So, every other game comes between that and Wind Waker (except the WW sequels, of course). Just sayin' what I know.

>>15507328
And skyward sword, which comes before OoT.
Aaaand the timeline splits at OoT.
And Minisg Cap could be before OoT, but yeah.

>Iwanami inglecon
There's an Inglip convention in Iwanami? Since when?

>>15507393
>And Minisg Cap
>Missing Cap
Wait, what...?
>Minish Cap
Oh... Ok lol. Took me a second there.

Also, omw to Iwanami, see y'all there gropagas.

>>15503015
I realize this is potentially thread-derailing and not at all what we need to be focusing on, but my pedantic side feels the need to point out that "Terminans" are, quite literally, exactly same race as Hylians, just in a different setting:
>http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Hylian#Terminan_Hylians
...whereas Deku and Koroks are completely different races that happen to share some similar features (plant-y, and generally small).

At any rate, getting back to more pressing topics...
I like the new armor section on the wiki, though I did take the liberty of combining "Tanned Leather" and "Padded Leather" to just "Leather", since the two being identical in everything but name seemed rather redundant. I also added subheadings to the Equipment section while I was at it.

Also, I support the idea of allowing either Wisdom or Courage for passive defense. Makes perfect sense to me.

Somebody mentioned adding basic combat maneuvers to the wiki earlier, so I'm gonna go ahead and compile what we have from previous threads and repost them here for a quick once-over before I put them up.

I still think putting the setting outside the timeline is a good idea, since it's such a mess and gives us more freedom.

However, a campaign that uses the literal interpretation of ALTTP's backstory and casts the players as either Knights of Hyrule or Sages would be great. It would let them fight the King of Evil without directly stealing Link's
job.

And anothe in-canon example could be set on the Great Sea either before or after WW. Before could deal with Ganon's seizure of the Forsaken Fortress, and after could be focused on some new crisis arising from the now-unsealed ruins of Hyrule.

Armour elemental resistance-wise, how should it work with environmental effects (drowning, extreme heat, etc.)? I'd suggest resistance can completely eliminate the damage from non-attacks, but having volcanoes/lakebeds as places you can't waste time in can work too.
Random dungeon idea: Four different types of zone - 0 Hearts damage, 1 Heart damage, 2 Hearts damage and 3 Hearts damage. Party has to find enough resistance-giving items to explore them safely (doing block-pushing puzzles while taking 2 Hearts of damage a round is not pleasant).

>>15503107

A fellow "create items to fit your campaign" supporter!
I mean, if you want a dungeon filled with sound-based puzzles and invisible enemies, why not put a sonar item in your game?

>>15507944

Who was in the Fortress before it became Forsaken? (It's probably "Forsaken" in the sense of God-forsaken, but having a good Fortress could be fun).

>>15508739
I'm not sure drowning should be treated the same as elemental damage, but I support the idea that resistance-granting items can entirely negate environmental hazards, despite being unable to completely stop attacks.

I think I've gotten all the basic actions for combat. The first few are going to be the most basic of basics, but I figure it's best to have it all there for the sake of completeness and such.

Attack (Single action): Roll a check with the relevant skill to attack someone with your weapon. Opposed by the target's defense. Each success deals one damage increment to the target, as defined by your weapon. Ties count as successes for you, and if you keep more dice than your opponent, each unopposed die counts as a success.

Recover (Single action): Used after attacking with a |heavy| weapon; you must do this before you can move or use the weapon again (though you can take other actions, such as making an unarmed attack or dropping your weapon).

Load (Varies): Prepare ammunition for a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons that launch projectiles (as opposed to being projectiles themselves) must be loaded before you may use them to attack. Some weapons (such as bows) can be loaded as a free action, while others (such as crossbows) may take an action to load, and still others (cannon?) may take more than one action.

>>15509166
Passive defense (Free action): Used whenever you're attacked, unless you've readied a form of active defense. Roll Physical Courage or Physical Wisdom (your choice) to oppose your opponent's attack. Ties count as successes for your opponent, and if you keep more dice than your opponent, ignore all unopposed dice.

Active defense (Single action): Ready a defense against a specific opponent. The next time that opponent attacks you before your next turn, you use one of the following defenses (chosen as you declare this action) in place of your passive defense to oppose the attack. Regardless of which one you choose, ties count as successes for your opponent, and if you keep more dice than your opponent, each unopposed die can be used to negate one success scored by your opponent.
Shield defense: Roll |Shield| (Courage) to defend. Additionally, you gain the damage reduction benefit of your shield for any damage taken from the attack. Even the attack deals no damage, it still makes contact (with your shield), which may be important for electrified attacks and similar effects.
Acrobatic defense: Roll |Acrobatics| (Wisdom) to defend. Additionally, you may move 1 space as a free action (part of your defense), plus one additional space for each success you score over your attacker's total number of successes.
Other active defense: Certain techniques may allow you to take other forms of active defense; these options are detailed under the technique that grants them.
>Proposal: Having active defense apply to only one attack seems a bit weak; perhaps we should have it apply to all attacks from a single opponent until your next turn?

Total defense (Double action): Same as active defense, but the defense you ready is applied to all attacks against you until your next turn.

>>15509177
Move (Single action): Move a number of spaces up to your Movement, in any path you like.

Stand up (Single action): Get back on your feet from a prone position.

Charge (Double action): Move a distance up to twice your Movement, but no less than two spaces, in a straight line. If your path passes through a space occupied by a creature, make a Physical Power check, adding +1k1 to your roll. The opponent may choose to oppose this check with either Physical Power or Physical Wisdom. Ties count as succeses for you. For each success you score, push the opponent back 1 space and deal 1/4h of damage (armor and other damage reduction applies as normal). If you scored more total successes than your opponent did, you may instead choose to push the opponent 1 square out of your path (dealing no damage) and continue your charge. If you scored at least two more successes than your opponent did, the opponent is also knocked prone.

Grapple (Single action): Roll Physical Power against an enemy within arm's reach. The enemy opposes your roll with its own passive defense, unless it has readied acrobatic defense against you, in which case it may use that. If you score more successes than the opponent, you begin grappling that creature. Ties count as successes for you. You must have a hand free to attempt to grapple a foe.

>>15509184
Break a grapple (Single action): Roll Physical Courage or Physical Power against an enemy that has grappled you, opposed by that enemy's Physical Power. If you score more successes than the opponent, you end the grapple and may push the enemy one space in a direction of your choice (modifiers for forced movement based on Mass Category apply).

Escape a grapple (Single action): Roll Physical Wisdom against an enemy that has grappled you, opposed by that enemy's Physical Power. If you score more successes than the opponent, you end the grapple and move up to one space in a direction of your choice.

Move while grappling (Double action): Roll an opposed Physical Power check against the creature with which you are grappling. If you and your opponent are of different Mass Categories, add +2k2 to the heavier creature's roll for each Mass Category it is larger than its opponent. If you score more successes than the opponent, you and the opponent both move one space for each success you score. You may not move more than half your Movement in this way. You may not attempt this action against a creature that is significantly larger than you.

>"Flood detected"..."Field too long"...4chan, why are you so whiny?

>>15509200
>Here's the last bit; not an action, but a condition important for the grappling stuff.

Grappling (Condition): A grappling creature can't use active defense, songs, magic, or any item or weapon requiring the use of both hands. It has access only to those items it was wielding when it became grappled, and cannot store or retrieve items. It can't attack any creatures other than the one with which it is grappling, and can only use unarmed attacks or weapons with the "Brawling" descriptor for this purpose. It can't move normally, but can attempt to move using the "Move while grappling" action. The creature that initiated the grapple may end it at any time as a free action, but the other creature must either break or escape the grapple. A creature that is significantly larger than the creature with which it is grappling is exempt from these restrictions, but instead simply adds the grappling creature's Mass to its own (thereby reducing its Movement by the same amount). However, unless it initiated the grapple, it can't attack any creature(s) grappling it.
>Weapons with the "Brawling" descriptor could include daggers, brass knuckles, gauntlets, artificial claws, and so forth.

Am I missing anything important?

>>15509215
>>15509200
>>15509184
>>15509177
>>15509166


Those are great descriptions.

I had thought that we were going with ties go to the defender (like Risk). I had also thought that unopposed dice are always automatic successes, no matter the circumstance.
Other than these, I have no complaints. It looks good.

>>15509439
>I had thought that we were going with ties go to the defender (like Risk).
It was recently decided that we should probably switch it to ties go to attacker, to keep it more in line with the typical RPG mechanic of defense setting the success threshold for attack, and change it back if giving ties to the attacker

>I had also thought that unopposed dice are always automatic successes, no matter the circumstance.
I think I started off spelling this out in every one, then got lazy and dropped it for the later ones. I guess it's kind of unnecessary to spell that out in the descriptions, so I'll omit those lines when I post it to the wiki.

There is one case where unopposed dice have always been meaningless, and that's passive defense. Though really, come to think of it, given how hard it is to improve passive defense, should we just let unopposed passive defense dice negate attacker successes too?

>>15509491
I think that unopposed passive defense successes should count. If not for balance, even just for simplicity. Why is it the only one that has this rule?

>>15509559
I believe the original idea was to try to encourage people to use active defense more often, but I think there's enough incentive even without that distinction.

>>15506730
>>15506926
Does anything scream "overpowered" about these monsters, or should I keep going? Die rolls can be easily adjusted later, right now I'm worried about the technical stuff.

Also drawing requeste, I've been in a rut.

>>15509491
Ties on individual compared dice (attacker's and defender's highest die is a 5, for example) don't go to anybody, they are just a tie. If all the rolls balance out and attacker and defender get all ties or equal numbers of successes, the win should probably go to the defender. Defense always has the advantage, because maintaining something is easier than causing change. I get that in many systems a defense is a score that an attacker must equal or exceed, but in this case we have opposed rolls, a very different situation.

Typically in combat and war, defenders have the advantage, so defense should probably win ties. This is one reason Active Defense is so useful, that and the bonuses in place for using a Shield or Acrobatics roll.

I'd be fine with seeing Active Defense count for all attacks from a single opponent, but I also want to hear more input on it.

>>15510125
>Also drawing requeste, I've been in a rut.
How about a Ghoma or a group of heroes fighting one?

>>15510126
My thoughts about passive/active defense:
-Single action active defense should be able to defend against all attacks from a single specified opponent until the next round.
-Double action active defense should be able to defend against all attacks from any opponent the character is aware of.
Alternatively, have a character able to defend against a number of opponents based on an attribute/virtue determining multi-tasking skills (Wisdom? Mental?).
-All opposed rolls (including attack resolution) should have ties go to the defender.

>>15510125
I don't see any problems with the mobs. Do any of them have damage reduction/natural armor/regular armor?

>>15510506
No, but they're starter monsters. Only monsters layer in the games would have any armor.

Also, I'm trying to make a ghoma, but this is all I have so far. http://i.imgur.com/vkzKq.jpg
I'll have something tomorrow.

>>15511205

Top right feels the most Ghoma-like to me, since the eye's so apparent. Maybe play around with the abdomen being another eye, or eliminating the eye on the head and just having one massive eye serving as the abdomen? Since Ghoma usually only have one really big eye and maybe some smaller, more buglike ones.

Been away from working on this for a while as other projects caught my attention. Glad to see it's still going strong.

>>15510506
I agree with these, though I don't like the idea of basing number of defenses on an attribute or virtue. Just having it work against all attacks from a single enemy seems fine.

>>15510125
The monsters seem alright to me. Thanks for the work. As far as drawing requests, how about a Goron in heavy armor wielding a crossbow that's more like a man-portable ballista?

bamp

I was thinking about passive defense again. If you put points into an active defense, then it makes a lot of sense to use it because it's better than passive defense.
So then I starting thinking about what can be done for characters without active defense, but instead rely on their reactions and wits to protect themselves. This is what I came up with:

Uncanny Defense (Passive)
Prerequisites: Courage 4
XP Cost: 4 (6?)
The character is unusually aware of enemy attacks and is unusually quick to react to them. Unopposed dice on a passive defense check which are usually ignored are instead treated as automatic successes.

I'm worried that this might be overpowered and game changing because it might negate the need for an active defense. Is it fair to players who spent points on active defense? Would it even be useful to players with active defense? I suppose we can find out after play-testing whether a no-active-defense build is even viable.

>>15513596
The main benefit of active defense isn't so much that your unopposed dice do something, but that you have more dice, period. Attacks are universally skill-based, and since skills expand your dice pool, rolls made with a skill will pretty much always have more kept dice than skill-less rolls (like passive defense), and the dice (particularly the first ones) will tend toward higher numbers due to the larger rolled pool.
Plus active defense gives additional benefits on top of the improved roll -- acrobatic defense gives you free movement, and shield defense gives you damage reduction. Parry is the only exception to this, since it's main benefit is that it lets you focus on a single skill for both offense and defense. But even there you can still get the Riposte tech to add an additional benefit that you wouldn't have with passive defense.

>>15514123
>it's main benefit

*its

I am ashamed of myself.

>>15514123
I guess I was just over thinking it. In that case, is the tech still alright at 4 XP and Courage 4?

>>15514123
What is the parry tech again? And would it make sense for a tech to allow you to use your Melee skill instead of your Guard skill for defense?

>>15514543
Here's a copy-paste from the wiki:

Parry (Passive)
Requirements: |Melee| 2
XP Cost: 2
Actions: 1
As an active defense, you may use your |Melee| skill with a Physical/Wisdom roll

>Guard skill
There's a Guard skill? There's Shield and Acrobatics, but no Guard that i know of.

>>15514587
Ah, ok. I was confusing Parry with Riposte. It was whichever one that made defense successes become attacks against the attacker.

I thought we had changed Shield to Guard (so you could block with your hands, weapon, or shield) and Acrobatics to Dodge. Acrobatic maneuvers would be handled like climbing and swimming, with a plain Physical/Virtue (probably Wisdom) roll.

>>15514501
Given the discussion from last night, I'm personally leaning in favor of letting unopposed passive defense dice negate attacker successes by default anyway, which means the tech is simply unnecessary.

>>15514659
>I thought we had changed Shield to Guard (so you could block with your hands, weapon, or shield) and Acrobatics to Dodge. Acrobatic maneuvers would be handled like climbing and swimming, with a plain Physical/Virtue (probably Wisdom) roll.

I remember seeing it discussed, but I don't recall it ever gaining widespread acceptance.
Personally, I'd be against lumping parry stuff into a general "Guard" skill, because it makes swashbuckling a strictly worse mechanical option than sword-and-board, since a shield gives damage reduction while parrying with a weapon gives nothing beyond the expanded dice pool. Keeping |shield| to just shields and allowing a tech to use |melee| to parry makes it a more competitive option, since you'd no longer need to spread your points across two different skills (though you're still not getting any added benefits unless you invest more XP into the Riposte technique). Plus renaming |shield| to |guard| makes a lot of our |shield| skills seem rather silly, since most of them are more about using the shield as a weapon rather than to guard.

And I see no reason to trim |acrobatics| down to |dodge| -- to the contrary, I think that's a bad idea, since it limits our options for techniques to include under that skill. We need to have the skill to allow for someone to have adequate defenses sans gear, but if we're going to make it a skill we need to make sure there's enough to do with it besides just dodging attacks.

>>15514910
As soon as we get everyone in here, we should take a vote to see about removing that rule from passive defense.

This might seem like a weird question, but is someone in charge of this project? Is there someone who has the final say and authority on what goes into the game? Or is it a completely collaborative effort?
It feels like friendly neighborhood DM has the most sway, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be any organization. (Side note: I've only been watching these threads since about #12, but since then I've been monitoring closely. Only recently I've been getting involved in the development process.)

>>15514910
Are you capping the number of these defensive skills someone can invest in?

>>15515120
It doesn't seem like there's a cap, but it would be pointless to put points into multiple active defenses since you can only use one at a time. You may put points in shield and acrobatics, but doing so only means you can use either, but not both at once.

>>15515106
No, it's a totally collaborative thing. It probably seems like I've got pull because I post a lot, but I actually only came into the project in the double-digit threads. I've thought about us selecting a "project head" to streamline things, but I think it would be best if it stayed community-led, like it started. Unless there's a lot of support for the idea of selecting a project head, I don't think we'll go that route.

>>15514659
I didn't see that discussion, but I agree with >>15514910. With how few xp people get and how much it takes to put into skills, it will be better if the Shield and Acrobatics skills play into both defense and other uses (like the shield techs), and not make people choose between investing in defense skills OR utility skills.

>>15515106
It is sort of odd that passive defense is the only situation in which unopposed dice are ignored. Active defense is already better enough because it will scale with skills -and- attributes/virtues, whereas passive defense will never really get any better. My vote is for unopposed dice counting even on passive defense, and maybe a tech or two to improve passive defense slightly for those who won't use active defense.

>>15516114
Although Guard could be used for shield attack techs as well, I'm not as focused on changing that from Shield as I am for changing Acrobatics to Dodge. Since climbing, pushing blocks, swimming and climbing don't gave their own skill, why should acrobatics? We discussed techniques for those kinds of rolls that benefitted them like skill points (a bonus to rolls), and Dodge can be used as a prerequisite for agility-based techs just like Acrobatics did.

No one has a final say. The namefags might seem like it, but that's because namefags are recognizable. They're frequently wrong, too.

>>15516951
You raise a good point about keeping consistency with the maneuverability-type actions, but I still think it'd feel weird to change |acrobatics| to |dodge| but still keep it as a prereq for acrobatic-type techniques. While there is some overlap, dodging and general acrobatics are two different things, and it would feel pretty incongruent to me to have a technique tied to a "dodge" skill that has nothing to do with avoiding attacks (and in some cases, such as the Intercept tech on the wiki, involve actually putting yourself in harm's way).

I suppose you could justify acrobatics having a skill while other stuff like climbing and swimming don't by saying that acrobatics requires a lot more training, and more specific training, than any of these other things. They take some practice, to be sure, but the difference between an extremely practiced climber or swimmer and one who's simply in good physical shape and has the basics down isn't nearly as spectacular as the difference between an experienced gymnast and another kind of athlete. Plus, while you can reasonably assume that an adventuring type has picked up basic swimming and climbing skills, the same can't exactly be said for acrobatics.

>>15517232
>>15516951
This does raise an interesting point. I'm against altering Acrobatics into just Dodge, but at the same time why does that skillset get special treatment? Feats of acrobatics are indeed spectacular and difficult, but just as you can devote training to that you could also condition for being a highly proficient climber or swimmer.

For the sake of consistency, let's consider again adding in an Athletics skill for jumping, climbing, and swimming. It makes sense that somebody could devote considerable effort into getting good at these feats of athleticism. The question is how useful it would be.

In my experience, there's a lot of "who puts ranks in Swim?", the answer to which is, "People who don't want to drown when they finally hit water, however rare or unlikely that might be." If we add in this skill, how many techniques might there be for it? Is it important for any possible character concepts? We could have techniques that allow for faster/further movement with checks for climbing/jumping/swimming, but would that already be accomplished by increased rolls from ranks in the skill?

We had a similar (brief) discussion about Perception, and it turned out to be more useful that originally thought, so let's really consider this. Is it worth including?

>>15518658
And on the subject of unrepresented skills, we don't have one for Sleight of Hand or similar actions. Should pick-pocketing and that sort of thing be lumped in with Stealth for simplicity, or given it's own skill?

Also, lockpicking. Probably not a great idea to have as an unrestricted ability, especially in a themed setting where gathering keys is a pretty significant part of dungeon exploration. I could see it being included with the fiat that lockpicks are a valuable and limited resource that are used up when used on a lock, and so as you pick you run out and have to gather more. This allows for some bypassing and workaround stuff in dungeons, but would it be too much? Honestly, I'd probably make sure to explore every room anyway, in case there's a heart piece or loot in there.

Thoughts on this as well?

What about we just sya that theres is athletics and that there is acrobatics (like in d&d) and say that climbing, swimming, jumping, etc, are athletics checks. Similarly, dodge, balancing on a rope, etc, are acrobatics checks. It seems easier and simpler to me than having to make every single one of this particular actions a skill on itself. Sometimes is better to make thing stupidly simplier than to make things realistically complex. On a side note, I confess that i could be confused about the argument going on here on the first place.

>>15518658
I don't believe the usefulness of the proposed Athletics skill would justify adding it to the list. Perhaps we could make it into a tech like we did with lore.

>>15518708
I think that pickpocketing and slight of hand should fall under stealth. Lockpicking... I don't think that it has a place in the setting. Every door and chest in the games is either unlocked or has a key. Allowing lockpicking would be allowing an override to the puzzle mechanics.

>>15518764
I dont get you at all, an athletics skill that is used for swimming, jumping, etc, is way more useful than a Swim skill that is just useful when you want to swim.

Also, i agree that sleight of hand should be on the domain of the stealth skill.

>>15518846
The last thing I want to see is a skill list full of skills, only half of which are useful. (I'm using DnD as an example. Who uses Use Rope and Decipher Script? Seriously.) I might be convinced to allow a broader skill like Athletics rather than swim/jump/climb separately. I just don't want to see the skills section get bogged down, that's all.

>>15518943

Ohh ok it seems i was misundertanding you, we are in the same page and you resumed the point quite well already.

>>15518943
While Athletics might be worth it, it could just be easier to say that climbing, jumping, and swimming are simply things people can do, and are not difficult to accomplish. Having a speed/distance for each simply derived from your stats might be easier than adding in another skill and requiring checks.

Rather than adding the skill, we could just put in a couple charts or quick calculation to determine, "this is how fast you climb/swim, this is how far you can jump." I think this might be the best way to do it. All these activities are pretty basic, and it's true that we don't want the skill list to get crowded.

I'm also all for putting sleight of hand and pickpocketing in with Stealth, and now allowing lockpicking.

I guess that's pretty much my input on the skill questions, but going back to the original discussion, I'm still against the whole Guard and Dodge change. I think Acrobatics is useful enough to be included and function for both defense and acrobatic maneuvers. Acrobatic maneuvers are things like swinging from a rope, balancing on a narrow plank, surfing down a banister on a serving tray, etc.

Yeah letting acrobatics function for defense as well seems better than creating a skill called dodge for it. There could be a tech called dodge or improved dodge that gives an extra bonus (easier to obtain than getting another point in acro skill) when using acrobatics for defending. Thats as far as i would go.

>>15519138
I like that idea of having climb, jump, and swim as a set number rather than a roll. I'm thinking something like half your speed on climb and swim and able to jump 1/4 of your speed in height. Then you could add racial modifiers like Zora can move double their speed in water, and Gorons have 0 speed in water (i.e. they sink like a rock.)

I also feel the same way about the guard/dodge/acrobatics situation. While it does encompass coordinated movements like balancing and tumbling, it also includes dodging and defensive maneuvers, thus justifying it as a skill.

>>15519269
I think we had discussed a tech before that increased acrobatics defense while unarmored. Let me see if I can find it.

>>15519269
I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea to let people boost acrobatic defense without putting ranks in |acrobatics| -- that would make acrobatic defense strictly better than shield defense, since you can increase it at less cost.
However, it would be a good idea to include a technique (with a pretty high |acrobatics| prerequisite) that improves *passive* defense, since armor penalizes your |acrobatics| skill.

>>15519306
Took a while but I found it.

Unarmored Combatant (Passive)
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 2, Wisdom 3
XP Cost: 2
You have studied to duck and weave in combat and roll with the hits, moving so that even if you get hit it won't be as hard. When not wearing armor, reduce damage taken by 1/4 heart, just as if you were wearing armor.

We had decided that this tech wouldn't do as written, so I had suggested a flat bonus to defense rolls (+1k1). There wasn't any discussion of it after that.

>>15520083
>>15519467
Actually, the intent there was to balance unarmored characters with armored ones. If anything, we should consider a tech that eliminates the Acrobatics penalty of armor (or rather, reduces it by 1, so heavy armor is still heavy). Unarmored people already lack a penalty to Acrobatics that anybody who wants to wear chainmail will have. My question is, if you don't wear armor, why would you ever not take this technique? You'd be crippling yourself, really. It just seems too much of an obvious choice, which means it might be unbalanced. Maybe if the cost was higher? I dunno.

Also, if we want a technique to improve Passive Defense, it shouldn't be limited to the unarmored. My poor Goron player was eaten alive in a single round despite his heavy armor and high life, all because of a low passive defense. Wielding a 2-handed heavy weapon and using armor pretty much screws you out of active defense, so for heavy-style character concepts a boost for passive is a must.

The technique should be fairly widely accessible to be fair, is what I'm driving at.

AT LAST, AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS I'M FREE!

TIME TO continue drawfagging.

yo TMM, here's the lineart for the Twili swordmage. About to start coloring, so if there's anything you want me to change about her design, speak now or forever hold your peace.

>>15522068
Looks awesome. Just one thing though, could you give her normal eyes? Either red or gold.

>>15522068
Doip, did a couple of minor touch-ups.

>>15522183
Dude, that's looking awesome.

>>15522183
Decided to do the Darknut Lineart as well before coloring. Sonnuva bitch is hard as hell to draw.

>>15522362
Heh, thanks.

>>15522645
>Thumbs up

>>15522645
bleeeh

I wanted to finish this before I went to sleep, but it's 8am where I am and goddamn I'm tired. I may keep working on it before bed, but....

Anyway, here's the Twili herself all done and finished. Gonna do the Darknut next, obviously.

Any preference on Background? I was gonna do a sort of Castle Dungeon/Hallway; lemme know if there's something else you'd prefer.

>>15523296
Holy crap that's good. Please continue to draw for us.

>>15521641
As it is right now, it seems like wielding a heavy weapon is a gamble. You are betting that you will kill your opponent with 1 blow, before he has time to prey on your poor defensive skills. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, this is probably how it should be. The point is that the trade off shouldn't be this bad for a heavy. Perhaps we could do something with heavy armor, like give an automatic bonus to active and passive defense rolls, since the armor protects you even though you aren't trying. I took your suggestion and tried to make a passive defense improving technique.

Battle-Hardened (Passive)
Prerequisites: Physical 3
XP Cost: 5/10/15
The character is an experienced veteran and has learned to move with the ebb and flow of battle. The character gets a +1k1 boost to passive defense rolls. May be taken up to 3 times.

I tried to balance out the XP cost so that it may not be worth it for someone with strong active defense to purchase it, however still being an option. Is it too much?

>>15524133
Well, if you insist...

Here's the finished Darknut. Since it's not the main point of the pic I didnt put as much detail ontpo it as the Twili... is it obvious?

>>15524594
It is a REALLY fuckin' bad day to be a Darknut.

I know you said magic fire, TMM, but is horrid eldritch twilight acceptable?

That's awesome. Still holding out for that Terminan mask maker woman/clock town guard.

There's so much drawing talent involved with this project, I love it!
It also makes me kind of jealous, since I've always sucked at drawing. Probably just a lack of practice, but...what can I say, I'm lazy, lol. I guess always getting good grades effortlessly in school pampered me to where I don't have the perseverance to really work at something to get good at it.

Anywho...>>15524133 looks like a pretty good technique to me. It's a bit pricey, but that makes sense, considering that each time you buy it you're effectively gaining the benefit of two ranks in an active defense skill without actually having to use an action to ready your defense.

>>15524133
The only real problem I see is that someone could have a higher Passive Defense than Active Defense.
That doesn't really make sense.

>>15525538
True, though that could be the case even without the tech.

>Heavy weapon user; 4 Power, 2 Courage, 1 Wisdom; 4 Power
>No ranks in |shield| or |acrobatics|
>Passive defense: 4k2
>Acrobatic defense: 4k1
>Shield defense: n/a (can't use a shield when wielding a 2-handed weapon)

>>15525563
Wait, what? How does that work out?

Sorry I haven't been adding much, but here's progress on Gohma.

http://i.imgur.com/zNAK2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y511S.jpg

>>15524609
Aaaagh, why did I just post without reading, I feel so inadequate by comparison.

Once I get access to a scanner and tablet, I'll try and bring my drawings up to par.

>>15525569
Passive defense is based on Physical and your choice of either Courage or Wisdom. It's a relatively recent change that may not have made it to the wiki yet.

>>15525571
Looks good, can't wait to see them finished.

>>15524609
I just noticed the name of this pic is "Twili don't fuck around" lol.

>>15525538
With the tech as it is, it costs 30 XP for the full +3k3 bonus. For comparison, it costs 21 XP to get a skill from 0 to 6 for the same bonus. 30 XP is a lot to be spending, especially since you can't use any of your creation points on it.

>>15525609
Oooh yeah. And |Acrobatics| checks are Physical Wisdom, right?
There's probably some way to rationalize it (good at parrying during battle, awful at dodging), so maybe it isn't that huge a problem.

>>15525645
True. But once you've used those 30XP, you never need to use Active Defense ever again.
Unless you want to dodge to move/soak damage with a shield, I suppose.
Who knows, it could turn out to be imbalanced, it could not. The horrendous cost should balance it a bit at least.

>>15525670
>There's probably some way to rationalize it (good at parrying during battle, awful at dodging), so maybe it isn't that huge a problem.
Based on the description for the tech, I'd say it's a matter of instinct vs conscious thought. When you're just going with the flow of battle, relying on your reflexes and muscle memory, you do pretty good, but when you try to consciously focus on it you shoot yourself in the foot. That sort of thing actually happens with real-world athletes -- you usually do better if you *don't* think about it.

>>15525645
The high cost is necessary, since a high passive defense is almost always better than an equally high active defense. It *shouldn't* be a convenient replacement for active defense, just a way for character archetypes with no room for active defense (i.e., the heavy-armor, heavy-weapon brute) to avoid being completely helpless on the defense. Active defense should remain the more attractive option for anyone looking to have good defensive capabilities.

>>15525952
You articulated my reasoning much better than I could, thank you.

>>15525952
>try to consciously focus on it you shoot yourself in the foot
Examplia gratia:
You are now breathing manually/aware of your tongue/thinking of a pink rhinoceros.
(Sorry.)

>>15525952
Great points. I like the tech because it's expensive enough to not be a go-to option for everybody, but accessible for those who won't be spending their xp on active defense skills. And even though it eventually matches 6 ranks in an active defense skill, your passive will still lack the nifty little bonuses granted by active defenses.

PASSIVE DEFENSE: Any opposition to changing it so that unopposed dice count for passive defense?

>>15525588
>>15525571
Bah, you're still better than I imagine the majority of us are. Gohma's coming along pretty nicely.

>>15524609
>>15524594
Horrid eldritch twilight is always acceptable. Thanks and bunch and please never stop being awesome!

>>15525571
Looking good. Keep up the good work.

>>15528447
>thanks and bunch
Silly me. It's "a" not "and"

I've been thinking about two things. First, Gorons.
Whenever I think of Gorons I always picture a creature that is made of rock. I picture a sword being deflected off of their stone body. When Link uses the Goron mask in MM, he uses his back as a shield to deflect attacks. My point is that Gorons should have either natural armor inherently or a racial tech available for such a bonus.

Made of Stone (Passive)
Prerequisites: Goron, Physical 3
XP Cost: 2
The Goron's skin is naturally tough from a diet of fine minerals and living in a mountain. He gains 1/4H natural armor and +1k0 to passive defense.

The other thing I've been thinking about is climbing/swimming/jumping from up here >>15519138.
I had originally said use half your speed for C/S and 1/4 speed for J. Then I reasoned that one's physical should have a factor, so I came up with these formulae.

(Speed / 2) + (Physical / 2) = Speed climbing and swimming. Examples using average, best, and worst stats:
>(6 Speed / 2) + (3 Physical / 2) = 4.5 sq / round
>(8 Speed / 2) + (6 Phys / 2) = 7 sq / round
>(4 Speed / 2) + (1 Phys / 2) = 3 sq / round

Physical / Mass = Jumping height. Ex:
>3 Phys / 4 Mass = 0.75 sq
>6 Phys / 2 Mass = 3 sq
>1 Phys / 6 Mass = 0.17 sq

I'm not sure how we would do rounding, and this isn't including armor on the worst models. I think it seems pretty accurate, and it takes into account mass and physical. I'm worried it might become tedious to calculate for lots of mobs.

>>15528642
Don't Gorons already gain +1 armor when they roll into a ball? I figured that was probably enough, and since I believe it stacks with actual armor I don't think we should go overboard on making Gorons indestructible.

For the jumping/climbing/swimming, while that looks good it's probably more complicated than we want to use. Since Mass and Movement are directly inversely tied to each other, but armor affects mass, we can base the distances on Mass and still include everything.

How about... 2x Physical - 1/2 Mass for climb/swim speed? Wait, that'd be on average 6 - 2 = 4. That seems alright. Round fractions down, I suppose, for simplicity. For jumping maybe 2x Physical - Mass? Average is 6 - 4 = 2, which seems fine.

Could stipulate a minimum 1 for folks with Physical as a dump stat or a huge Mass. This is just speculation.

Silly side question.
Is it pronounced Deh-Koo or Dee-koo

>>15529833
Yes.

Do Skull kids and Po's count as the same thing?

>>15529811
This sounds good to me.

>>15529952
What? No, they're completely different.

>>15529811
I had read over that trait on Gorons before, but I had just forgotten I guess. Nevermind my suggestion then. Just for clarity, +1 armor is 1/4H right? That needs to be changed.

Your formulae for the movements seem simpler than mine. It would benefit everyone to keep it as simple as possible.

Ok, does 4chan hate PNG's? it wont let me post the finished product.

Either that Or I am posting, It just wont let me see my own posts.

>>15530413
All right, there it is, all done.

What d'ya think, TMM? up to /tg/ drawfag standards, I hope (Only, what? 10 hours of work, I think).

Hope ya like it! (If ya dont, my perfectionism requires me to fix it)

Lastly, Do I have your permission to post this on my Deviantart, and to sell prints of it at an upcoming convention?
Now that that's done, anyone else have requests to make?

>>15530442
Thaaaat's...pretty great, actually.

>>15530442
*drooling* I wish I could draw that well. I would suggest something to draw, but I would probably come up with something lame. My imagination is better left to the mechanics side of things.

>>15530505
Ha, don't worry about it being lame. I just want to keep drawfagging for this RPG (I started the damn project. I gotta contribute somehow.)

Though, it may not be /quite/ as awesome as the Twili, 'cause I did that extra awesomely as an apology for taking a week and a half to actually start.

>>15530530
Alright, I'll give it a try. How about a Goron grappler doing the "Stonefist Suplex" (it's in the wiki) on something humanoid. I'm not sure what look best, maybe a redead/gibdo?

>>15530037
I'd assumed +1 meant 1 full heart of armor, since they only get it while rolled up, which only allows them to move or uncurl unless they get those spikes, I guess. I'm not sure, actually.

Are you sure you want armor to reduce damage by a flat rate? That would make some enemies pretty much completely harmless. And if the average enemy's damage output is low enough, it would be really hard to balance.
In the Zelda games, Link barely ever got armor that reduced damage. But he did get clothing that gave certain advantages (Goron and Zora tunic). Heavier armors could have more dramatic effects.

And something else that just came to mind, the health system must look really weird. What kind of stuff is in there to justify it? Perhaps certain things happen when a player has a certain number of hearts?

>>15528642
As far as that Goron rock thing goes, I imagine a tech where they get bonus defense to attacks from behind.

>>15530724
Well, the system in place before we changed it was "armor rating" = 1/4H right? However I think a full heart is more appropriate.

>>15530624
Here's what I have so far; Quick Question.

Is "Stonefist Suplex" just a name, or does it involve actual stone fists?

>>15531059
Stonefist, I believe, is just a name. The pic looks even more awesome than I had imagined!
Also, you really have a talent for making me laugh with your picture titles :).

>>15531059

One redead was too skinny to sit. So I improvised.

Yeah can't get the shadow on the ground or the motion blur to look anything like how I want, so I'm going to call this "Done"

Sorry it's not colored or anything, but hope ya like it. Just not in the mood for another 10 hour drawing.

Any other requests that you dont mind just a quick sketch of?

>>15530442
I do like it, a lot. Go ahead and put it on your deviantart.

>>15530903
The Goron racial ability was in place before the armor rating thing came in, so it's fine as is, I think.

>>15531598
That is... so goddamned awesome.

In the absence of requests. I'm designing a Goron fighter/mage. Is this awesome Y/N?

Goron anatomy confuses the hell out of me.

>>15533190

Looks pretty cool to me. Possibly his hands could look like magma or those back rock spikes could look like volcanoes, since he's a "Pyro Driver" and all.

Since "Sheikah facing down a Twili assassin" is too awesome to just be a sketch, can I request "Korok and Deku Scrub neighbours competing to grow the best plants"?
___

Getting dungeons to work in a cool way is hard... With the amount of switches involved, there needs to be a quick and easy way to keep track - double-sided counters, maybe?

>>15533644
The Goron was inspired by that one Elder in TP who had volcanic vents on his back, so yeah the spires on his back are gonna be spewing ash and fire, and his hands are gonna be wreathed in flame.

by "Shiekah facing down a Twili assassin", what does facing down mean? Like, a shootout at high noon type deal? Them just staring each other down right before a fight? I think I smell my next quality drawfaggotry...

But until then, Deku garden rivalry it is!

Nope, looks like I still can't draw fire.

>>15533644
Pyro Driver was because I typed "Pyro" and then needed a more physical alternative to "Mancer".

Feel free to suggest a name for was this guy is that doesnt suck.

>>15533951
geodude? or maybe machamp

>>15533972
machamp has 4 arms, and if anything it looks like a bipedal camerupt

>>15533972
>>15533981
wat

>>15533972
>geodude
It has legs though, silly.
Graveller, maybe.

>>15533951
Gor Igneus?

And yeah, Goron anatomy is all over the place.

>>15534056
>Gor Igneus
...BRILLIANT!

When I DM a beta campaign of this, Gor Igneus shall be the patriarch of the local Goron tribe.

>>15534056
I was actually reffering to renaming his "Class" (Pyrodriver). but hey. Now he has a proper name.

>>15530442
It's even better finished! Any chance of that Termina mask maker?

>>15534298
Having never played Majora's Mask, I'm not sure what all that would entail. Care to give me a more detailed descritption of what you want?


Also it seems that this has devolved into a drawthread. That's no good at all! What do we need to work on?

>>15534353
We were having a crisis of faith with our armor and defense systems. It might be better to leave it as-is or come to a temporary decision, but keep other ideas in mind for the inevitable editing that comes after testing.

Other than that, I think we should push for a "demo" model, with enough material for players to try a short game. I can keep working on monster flesh-outing and maybe some songs. We had lots of spells in the previous thread as well that would be useful.

Also, in general, stuff needs to be added to the wiki.

>>15534353
Well, I was thinking someone who's basically carrying around a workshop with them and samples of the product. Blank masks, a pack, carving knives and bottles of pigment and such...Maybe a tunic or something? She'd be rather different from the Happy Mask Salesman, despite the similar product. Just another one of Clock Town's merchants.

>>15534886
Oh, and ink and pigment stained clothes. Maybe a sort of monacle/spectacles?

>>15534900
And braided hair? Or a bun? Dunno.

Do we have Ganon's energy balls under spells yet?

>>15535167
>>15534900
>>15534886
Mmk, I'll draw that as part of my next drawing binge, after a decent amount of sleep.

>>15534804
The discussion I caught regarding armor seemed to be whether it should reduce total damage, or by increment. I guess the core of that is do we want an armored character to require a large number of successes/damage at once to meaningfully harm, or just take a lot of time to finally kill?

What I would think is that armor represents a creature's immunity to small-arms, with just huge numbers of hearts depicting the patience required to kill it. In that vein, I agree that armor should reduce total damage, not the increment.

What's the crisis of faith regarding defenses?

>>15535533
Thank you!

As for armour, it should take a lot of hits from a "normal" weapon. Reduce total damage until it's destroyed is the way to go.

>>15535533
People were trying to figure out the use of unopposed defense dice. I'm not sure if we came to a conclusion. I should have been following the discussion more closely, but it's right above us to read.

Recently we've been going back to ideas and reworking them before finishing others, and that's caused a lot of slowdown in discussion.

>>15535586
I agree. It makes it possible to brute-force certain challenging monsters like a Dodongo, but there are still much smarter ways to defeat it (use bombs or strike the tail.)

>>15535891
I think the consensus has been leaning towards letting unopposed passive defense dice negate attacker successes, same as active defense.

On the subject of armor, I'm cool with switching it to reduce total damage rather than damage increment, but if we do that, do we still want to keep the limitation that it can't reduce damage to zero? It seems to me that this wouldn't be quite so big of an issue if armor reduces total damage.

>>15536317
Yes, we had decided to have passive defense unopposed dice count just like everything else. We had determined that there's enough of a benefit from active defense to justify simplifying passive defense.

On armor, we had changed from reducing damage increments to reducing total damage. The reasoning here is that if we went by damage increment, then medium armor and better would reduce anything but heavy weapons to just 1/4H increment (the minimum). With reduced total damage, you can still do damage proportional to the damage increment of your weapon, regardless of how much it does. We had also decided to add some armor piercing techniques that bypass armor to balance it out.

Deku Baba (Plant)
Life: 2, Mass: 3, Speed: 0
Attack: Bite (Range 2, 3k3 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (guard 1/4H)
Special: Vulnerable - Fire x2, Edged x2
P2/M1/S2
P2/W1/C1 (Gear: Deku Nut/Deku Seeds)

Rope
Life: 2, Mass: 2, Speed: 6
Attack: Bite (Range 1, 3k3 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (Dodge 1)
Special: Charger - The Rope gets a +2k0 bonus to charge attacks.
P2/M1/S1
P2/W1/C1

Walltula (Spider)
Life: 1/2, Mass: 1, Speed: 6 (Wallclimb 6)
Attack: Bite (Range 1, 4k3 1/4H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (Dodge 1)
P2/M1/S1
P1/W2/C1

Mad Scrub (Plant, Deku Scrub)
Life: 2, Mass: 2, Speed: 8
Attack: Spit Nut (Range 15, 3k3 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (Dodge 1)
Special: Flower Burrow - The Scrub can burrow into an adjacent Deku Flower as a Single Action and exit as another Single Action. (See: Deku Flower)
Shocked Reflect: If a Mad Scrub is hit with his own or another Scrub's Deku nut, the Mad Scrub must immediately move its speed and is Stunned on its next turn.
P2/M1/S2 (Sway 2k2, Stealth 3k3)
P1/W2/C1 (Gear: Deku Nut)

>While inside a Deku Flower, you can detect all creatures touching the ground within 10 spaces of you, but you don't have line of sight to any creature and no creature has line of sight to you. If the flower is attacked you take no damage, but you are ejected into an empty space of your choice adjacent to the flower after the attack.

And for fun:
Business Scrub (Plant, Deku Scrub)
Life: NPC, Mass: 3, Speed: 7
Attack: Spit Nut (Range 10, 3k3 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (Dodge 1)
Special: Flower Burrow - The Scrub can burrow into an adjacent Deku Flower as a Single Action and exit as another Single Action. (See: Deku Flower)
Shocked Reflect: If a Business Scrub is hit with his own or another Scrub's Deku nut, the Business Scrub must immediately chill out.
P1/M3/S3 (Sway (W/C) 4k3 (P) 4k2 Stealth 3k3)
P1/W2/C2

>>15536397
Right, I was already aware of the changes to armor, but my question was about whether we'd keep the limitation from the old system that armor can't reduce damage (increments in the old version, total damage for the new version) below 1/4 heart. This was important for the old system, since low-increment weapons would be rendered completely useless by even the weakest armor, but if we're having armor reduce total damage it seems like we could get away with striking this rule for the sake of simplicity.

>>15536801
If we take the 1/4H min out, then it could become possible for an enemy with enough armor to become completely invulnerable to a party's attacks. I think we should keep the 1/4H min just as a fail safe so even if a party isn't good against armored foes, then they still have a chance to outlast him.

>>15536872
I'd rather have damage reduced to 0. Being able to outlast an enemy shouldn't be a viable strategy against most foes, since armored enemies usually always have some kind of weakness that we want players to exploit.

On that note, if we use Facing for miniatures rules, should player armor be weak in the flank like most monsters (darknuts, dodongos, etc)?

>>15537420
I have no problem with armor reducing damage to zero if there is a way exploit flanking/striping them of their armor. We need to be sure to include that in the mob stat-blocks.

Being weak in the back doesn't really make sense for a Goron since I believe their back is their strongest point. On every other race, that makes perfect sense. So maybe if an enemy is attacking an armored person from behind, -1/2H to armor reduction.

>>15537544
I think that for the time being we should include the minimum 1/4 heart damage, but it can be changed as soon as we include armor penetration on certain weapons (rapier, hammer, etc.) and some techs for it. We'd also have to include armor penetration on appropriate enemies, so heavily armored PCs can't feel invincible against everything.

Also, the biggest issue I'm looking at as my campaign nears it's start is that our magic system is still incredibly sparse. We've got to add the stuff from the last thread onto the wiki, put out more spells/songs (mostly songs), and make sure we're don't see any glaring issues with how we're working magic before we start testing.

>>15538233
I've thought about making some songs, but I'm not really sure what they should do and how they should work in comparison to other mechanics. Should it work like spells? Do you roll your Instrument check just as you would an attack or a spell? What kinds of things should music include and what should it not? The music system seems really vague right now and I don't know how to fix it.

Magic, however, I can do. I'll get to work on getting some spells written up. What kinds of spells do we need?

Hey folks, drawfag who did the Deku mage in the OP here.

Working on a Goron (like we don't already have plenty of Goron pictures already :/) musician, with his flute/bludgeon.

Sketchier than last time, and I haven't finished the colors yet, but I felt like sharing my progress.

>>15538360
Music system was hammered out a few threads back. Instead of a skill prerequisite for each song, you have a prerequisite for certain effects of a song. Many songs have different levels of effects.

Song of Embers
Wood and flame heed your song.
Double Action
Level 2: One Burning object or creature within 10 spaces of you now burns half as fast/ takes half as much damage from the Burning.
Level 3: Choose a source of fire within 10 spaces of you. Make a Music attack against each enemy adjacent to the fire source, dealing 1/4H (torch), 1/2H (campfire, brazier) or 3/4H (bonfire) of fire damage per success.

>>15538233
Armor will be able to be bypassed, it's more faithful to the games to find creative ways around a seemingly invulnerable foe. Armor penetration has some basis in the game's history - Darias in Zelda 2 threw axes that your shield couldn't repel. It shouldn't be very common in techniques though, maybe it should be limited to Power weapons.

>>15538826
Oh, awesome! I didn't see the Deku picture from an earlier thread, and I was wondering who did it. It's better to have too much art, and especially in this cartoony style to balance out the realistic stuff. Do you have a DA or similar gallery?

>>15538925

Nah, no gallery here. But thanks for the compliments.

>>15538233
On the subject of spells, I've posted stuff that was proposed way back in one of the single-digit threads several times for refinement (the most recent being last thread), and gotten pretty much nothing in the way of actual feedback. Of particular importance is that pretty much none of them have skill rank prerequisites, since they were proposed before we decided to I think it's probably because posting all of it at once makes people TL;DR and just skip over it, so I'll try breaking it up into smaller chunks this time...
I'm going to reformat them using the spell template that was proposed last thread, and include what I think would be a reasonable rank prereq.

Shield (Wisdom)
Defense
Rank 1
2 MP (sustained)
Duration: Sustain
Range: Original version said "0 to 5", which I'm not sure how to interpret. Shall we call it "5 meters?"
Target: Single creature

A shimmering barrier protects the subject from harm.
The target of this spell gains 1/2 heart of damage reduction. This damage reduction doesn't stack with armor.

--------------------------------------------------
Reflect (Wisdom)
Defense
Rank 2
2 MP (sustained)
Duration: Sustain
Range: Same deal as with Shield, so I guess we'll call it 5 as well.
Target: Single shield

The shield takes on a brilliant sheen, reflecting both light and magic.
The affected shield gains the Reflective property for the duration of the spell.

>>15539006
Just for clarity, "Rank 1" means they need 1 rank in magic skill right?

On both of these, I think it said 0 or 5, which I believe means you could cast it on yourself or on someone within 5 squares.
Question: is there any roll required on these spells? Like a roll against a set difficulty for success, or is it just "I cast this" and it is done.

I don't see any balance problems with these.

>>15539006
These seem alright, but isn't the Shield on the wiki right now stronger than that? Not stacking with existing armor seems odd. I guess it could be a balance issue, but I don't know yet if it's necessary.

Also, there were a lot of good spells suggested in the last thread. We should get those added to the wiki with the suggested fixes, including a final version of those three "fallback" spells for when you're out of mp.

>>15539085
>Just for clarity, "Rank 1" means they need 1 rank in magic skill right?
Yep.

>On both of these, I think it said 0 or 5, which I believe means you could cast it on yourself or on someone within 5 squares.
That makes sense, though I think it should be a given that you can target yourself with a ranged spell. So I guess we'll go with 5 squares then.

>Question: is there any roll required on these spells? Like a roll against a set difficulty for success, or is it just "I cast this" and it is done.
Ah, I forgot about that. Yeah, I think for buffs and other such non-opposed spells we decided that there should probably be an unopposed roll for success. Or at least for the more powerful ones, anyway. Personally, I think even the weak ones should have a check, just one of such trivial difficulty that, unless you roll really terribly, you'll have no trouble succeeding.

Thus, I'd probably set both of these at something like needing 3 successes, 2 or higher is a success. That way someone with high Wisdom can cast it with just one rank in |magic|, but one with a lower Wisdom score would need more ranks in |magic| to make up for it.

If we do decide to go with checks for all spells, even the low-grade ones, we should probably add a line for that in the rules block. Attack spells would just say "opposed" or something to that effect, while unopposed checks for success/failure would define the check difficulty.

>>15539182
Most of the spells posted last thread were reposts from really early on, which I had posted for refinement since they weren't quite ready for use. And since I got pretty much no feedback, I'm posting them again now, but in smaller chunks to avoid overwhelming people with a big wall-o'-text, and with a some of my own proposed changes and refinement rather than just asking the whole group "wat do?"

As for the Shield spell on the wiki...it makes no sense, and I don't recall ever seeing it in the threads. We agreed a while back that buffs generally shouldn't scale to successes, otherwise they'd get way out of hand. Plus the one on the wiki keys to Courage, but defensive buffs are definitely Wisdom magic.

I think we could let it stack with armor. I don't think that'd be too powerful, as long as we're not letting it scale.

>>15539281
I think stacking with armor wouldn't harm the balance of the spell. 2MP/round is still pretty expensive.
Here's more questions: Would you be able to have this and any other sustained spell active at the same time? Would you be able to have the same spell sustained on two targets at once if you spent 2 different actions casting it?

>>15539394
>2MP/round is still pretty expensive.

Good point. Should we maybe drop these down to 1MP/round? Reflect in particular seems like it would be fair at that cost.

As for maintaining multiple sustained spells and more generally using magic while sustaining a spell, IIRC this sort of thing isn't allowed in the video games, but I think it probably should be in our system for the sake of balance. Maybe a compromise, where you can sustain as many spells as you have ranks in |magic|, and casting a non-sustained spell counts toward this total? So, for instance, if you had 3 ranks in |magic|, you could maintain 3 sustained spells (or three instances of the same spell) at once, but you couldn't cast any other spells unless you dropped one of the sustained ones?

>>15539489
I like the magic skill = # of active spells rule. Also, 1MP/round seems appropriate for 1/2H armor.

>>15539601
Agreed.

I was thinking, though, about how to do various magic stuff while keeping the system simple, and I came up with an alternative. What we've got now are a bunch of spells with specific effects and dimensions, and if you want some different effect or target or duration you need a different spell. This is fine, and it pretty much fits with what we've seen of magic in the games, but what if we did it another way?

Let's say first you've got a more or less small list of basic effects. Things like Fire, Ice, Shield, Push, etc. Each has a baseline effect and can be used independently. To supplement this you've got a list of spell modifications, similar to metamagic, that alter the effects of the baseline spells. Things like Burst, Ray, Sustain, Area, etc. These would modify the mp cost of the base effect by either a multiplier or a static amount. This way, you don't need a different spell for an area fireball and a normal thrown fire spell, you can just mix & match the base effects and modifiers.

I know it's a little out there, but it might cut down on work for us developing it and make the magic system more dynamic. Also, for really cool or special stuff we can still make more advanced spells with specified values that can't be modified like normal spells. If you've played Magicka, think kind of like that.

It's a little out there, but what do people think?

>>15540290
I see a lot of potential in this system. I think once we get all the details into place we could see a lot of interesting outcomes. However, it might be difficult to fit it into the "spells=items" system though. It's a really cool idea, but I don't think it fits.

>>15540367
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'm not really sold on the spell = items thing. As we have it, a starting person who wants to focus on magic get 1 or 2 spells, unless they want no armor or items at all.

I thought more about the system I suggested, and came up with some extra stuff. When you put your first rank into Magic, you get 1 baseline effect and 1 modifier. At each rank afterward, you get another baseline spell OR another modifier. Spells like Din's Fire and better spells that have lower cost or fewer restrictions than would be possible with the base mix & match would be treated like items and only obtainable through loot and quest rewards.

I dunno, I'm just brainstorming. The magic system just seems half-assed to me thus far, but maybe I'm looking at it wrong or expecting too much.

>>15541030
Let's try and stick to what we have before we try and revamp how magic works. Individual spells are more powerful (but less versatile) than weapons in combat, and have the benefit of being used to solve puzzles. They're a sort of balance between "tools" and "weapons".

Songs have less offensive use in combat, and the more potent effects are also more closely tied to the environment- they require certain circumstances to work well at all, and even then only once or twice a day. Songs are rarer than spells too and can't be bought, so they have more effects than an individual spell might.

>>15541255
That works for me. I like the distinction between magic and songs you describe. Do we really want to make spells necessary for puzzle solving, though? I mean, I guess if you design the puzzle for what the party has, or if you find the spell in the same dungeon, but as a rule it might be too restricting. Not sure, though.

We'll test it out as is and see if there's need for a change. We do need to get more spells up on the wiki, though.

>>15541457
Oh, I didn't mean they would be nescesary, just that they could be used to solve puzzles. Like a wind spell acting like a more powerful Gust Jar or an ice spell freezing platforms or magma like an ice arrow. I just meant they have more practical applications than a sword would.

On that note, is it bad to give out pots of elemental spells from character creation? I asked the same thing about bows and arrows earlier - there are a lot of puzzles in the games that use those things to be solved, and they usually show up mid-game.

And on another note, we need to stat out some items.

>>15541594
Wow, yeah it just dawned on me that we have no items other than armor and weapons. We need boomerangs, jar items, and a crapton more. I'll work on crafting stuff I plan to use for my campaign. Also, for each spell that has a utility purpose, we should provide a few examples of non-combat uses, just so people get the general idea. Or perhaps that could just be stated explicitly in the Magic section that spells can have a variety of effects based on the situation they are used in.

Really, this game is going to be very dependent on the individual campaign, with a lot of work on the GM's side, but we should provide as many examples as possible for items/songs/spells/etc. to give people a foundation to work from.

Alright, gonna work on Anon's mask maker now. is a shot of her in clock tower square working on some masks with her assorted tools good with you?

and oi Tagman, you never answered my question; I'm interested in doing that Shiekah vs Twili assassin you mentioned

Okay, throwing out ideas for item mechanics:

Cane of Pacci
Range 15 (Magic/Wisdom)? 2MP?
Flips objects upside down (Inverts, if we want to make it similar to the shenanigans in the Stone Tower) and knocks enemies prone (with a certain number of successes? Maybe 2?)
If shot into a 1m hole or pit, Launches the next object to enter it 6 spaces.

Mole Mitts
Dig speed equal to half your regular speed.
1/2H Power weapons, 1H against earthen enemies.

Roc's Feather
You gain a +2k2 bonus to jump checks. (or make your jump distance equal to your movement? Or just add 2 to it?)
Roc's Cape
You gain a +4k4 bonus to jump checks. (or make your jump distance twice your movement? Or just add 4 to it?) 
>This depends if we want jumping/climbing/swimming to have default "speeds", with checks being made only if there's some kind if resistance. I think that would be more fun.

Pegasus boots
3 times your speed while charging, has the Pounding/Crushing property (an extra +1k0 to the roll, making it a total of +2k0 when charging?)

Gust Jar
Range 10 or 5?
Single Action: pull object 3 spaces
Single action: push object 3 spaces (or shoot 10 spaces if the object is small enough)

The Magic Boomerang would have a lock on ability.

>>15542076
>The Magic Boomerang would have a lock on ability.

How exactly would lock-on function? negate dodge? The player can choose the path?

>>15542024
Here's what I've got so far for the Mask Maker. Any suggestions on what kind of mask she should be working on?

Alright, so I had to go to bed before 4chan unfroze last night, and I have to go to work here in a little bit, so I won't be able to put in much input of my own, but I'll go ahead and post the next couple spells for you guys to chew on.

Armor (Wisdom)
>This one is identical to Shield but for the fluff text, so I suppose we can probably scrap it

-------------------------------------
Fire (Power)
Attack
Rank 1
2 MP
Duration: Instantaneous
Range: 10
>Seems a bit short to me if we're using 1-meter squares; 20 or 25 might be better.
Target: Single creature or object

A bolt of fire roars as it soars past.
Roll a |Magic|(Power) attack with a damage increment of 1/2h (Fire). This damage is unaffected by armor, but is affected by magical damage reduction.
>How do we want to handle shield and parry defense for spells? Should we limit it only to items with the Reflective property, or are there other things that should work as well?

-------------------------------------
Ice (Wisdom)
>I think Power is more appropriate for attack spells, even if the elemental type is associated with the goddess of a different Virtue.
Attack
Rank 1
2 MP
Duration: Instantaneous
Range: 10
>Again, seems a bit short.
Target: Single creature or object

A beam of ice sails through the air.
Roll a |Magic|(Power) attack with a damage increment of 1/4h (Ice). This damage is unaffected by armor, but is affected by magical damage reduction. Additionally, the target's speed is reduced by 1 for each success you score until the beginning of your next turn.

>>15542468
Love it. Thanks!

Wouldn't the magic boomerang just let the player choose a circular path that crosses one point of their choosing? (As per OOT.)

>>15542468
Maybe something like this:http://www.zeldawiki.org/File:GiantMask.pngs with a pattern being etched into the wood? Also, just a nitpick, but she seems a bit...modern somehow. Other than that, nice work. Thanks!

>>15542076
On Cane of Pacci, make it opposed by the enemy's Physical|Wisdom or Courage (or acrobatics).
On the Roc's items, adding 2 or 4 would probably be best just for simplicity's sake. I also agree with adding bonuses to resisted climb/swim/jump checks.
What's the damage and range on a boomerang?

>>15542864
I just had another idea about multiple magics at a time. A spell could count for a number of spells based on it's rank, i.e. with skill rank 3 you could have 1 rank 3 spell, 1 rank 2 and 1 rank 1, or 3 rank 1 spells going on at once. That way you can't have tons of high level spells going on all at the same time.

On both Fire and Ice, they're opposed by passive defense or by acrobatics right? I think there should be either a low level tech or an enchantment that allows for shield blocking of a spell, since there's already rules for reflecting them. Like so:

Magic Shield Enchantment: Allows a character to block spells with a shield that are normally opposed by acrobatics or passive defense.

On Ice, I think we had decided that all direct damage and debuff spells fall under Power, regardless of elemental affiliation.

For parrying, the only spell I've seen be parried is Ganondorf's "tennis ball" spell. I think that should be specific to the spell rather than a general rule for all magic.

>>15543213
>What's the damage and range on a boomerang?

According to the wiki, 1/4 heart and 10 meters. That range is absurdly short; 30 meters would be more appropriate (according to Wikipedia, a boomerang's range is usually between 20 and 40 meters). 1/4h damage seems appropriate, since it's primarily for stunning and utility rather than killing things dead.
Unless we're talking about the boomerang from Link's Awakening, but let's not go there...

>>15543213
For the Cane, I'm not sure if we should get into the mess of alternate defenses until we're sure they're needed (I mentioned a Willpower skill for that before that doesn't seem necessary now.) So far, most non-damaging effects from attacks just require a "hit", or at least one success against an enemy. For something like the cane that can knock an enemy prone, is cheap to use and ranged, I'm not sure if one success is enough. It might also work to have it only effect certain creatures (spiny beetles/snappers/whatever name we choose for spikey turtles.)

I wrote up something for the Magic Boomerang earlier, but I can't find it. I can type it up again though.

Magic Boomerang
Ranged (Courage)
Range 15, 1/2H damage
Lock On: Single Action - Select up to 5 creatures, objects, or points on the map within 15 spaces of you.
When you next throw the magic boomerang (Single Action) it travels through and attacks each of those targets in the order you selected them. The boomerang returns to you at the end of your next turn.

Not sure if Stunning should be an inherent property of boomerangs, or if a cheap 2XP technique would allow the attacker to choose to stun instead of doing damage.

Also, I agree with the Dead Man's Volley only working with certain spells, but those spells should be extra strong so the risk is worth it for the mage to use them.

>>15543531
30 meters in game terms is a huge distance, but I guess since this is Zelda, the average dungeon room is a lot grander than a typical 8x8 room full of orcs. Is 20 meters a good compromise?

>>15543613
I think 20 sq is fine. As for the magic, I was just thinking that every spell that has an adverse effect would have some type of opposed roll, or else have a limit on the spell that prevents abuse (high MP cost, limited uses, only works in specific circumstances). Generally speaking, I think that a spell should tell what opposes it in the description.

Side note: I've got a haste spell in the works in my head. I'll get to fleshing it out and posting it later after I get some real work done.

>>15543674
So far, magic effects are opposing Defense. In the games, the only thing that matters is if you hit the target, and currently monsters don't have any sort of "Will Defense" (and I'm not sure they need it). Having effects like the Cane's requiring at least 2 successes for the effect to work makes it harder to effect something than a single success.

It might also be better to have the cane effect certain top-heavy items and creatures, but keep the knocking-prone effect for larger creatures. Bumping up the MP cost to 3 might work too (in addition to or instead of the 2-success suggestion.)

>>15543829
I was playing around with "will defense" when I was making Sap Strength. I had the spell opposed by Mental|Courage. It allows for spells that aren't just hit-and-miss. What about illusions? I know we will have illusions, but you can't really oppose them with passive defense because they don't work that way. My point is that there should be multiple defenses against spells because not all spells work the same way.

>>15543919
I guess Illusions wouldn't attack though, and at best you could use Perception to tell that something was an illusion or not. I don't think you could "disbelieve" illusions, though: you would need a Lens if Truth, the Piercing Gaze technique, or some kind of animal sense to actually know what the illusion was hiding.

I just can't think of enough alternate effects to warrant a new defense. Some effects could use the monster's ability rolls to determine severity once they make contact, though, if that works for you.

>>15544064
Alright here's a list of magic effects that I believe would not do with just a passive defense roll:
mind control, sleep, slow/immobilization, weakening, transformation, blindness, deafness.
I know there's more, this is just off the top of my head.

Stupid bizzare Terminan architecture... Stupid bustling market square... STUPID GIANT CLOCK TOWER


...ahem. Here's the lineart for the mask maker all done. I coldnt get the Giant's Mask to look right, so here's a generic Mask of Truth-esque mask she's making :U

Gonna start coloring now.

>>15544534
Aaaaagh backgrounds

I need to go draw something to validate my experience now.

>>15544230
Hmm... What if the Magic skill was used for magic defense as well? That is, to resist effects like that. It's not a perfect solution.

>>15544865
*Existence, not experience.

My mind is already blown trying to picture it colored now.

>>15543613
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a spell or item with a range bigger than the typical dungeon room.

And I really hope a dungeon room would be bigger than 8x8 -- that would be ridiculously cramped. Just going by a rough mental approximation based on what I recall from the (3d) video games), I'd say a typical dungeon room is easily 20 meters to a side, with the big ones being significantly larger.

If you're thinking in terms of D&D grids...don't. Remember that 1 meter is just a little bit over 3 feet, so our squares are significantly smaller than D&D's 5-foot squares. The same size room will have more squares in our system than in D&D.

And while we're on the subject of measurements, the movement speeds have been bugging me for awhile. Again, assuming 1-meter squares, having 6 as the average movement speed means that everybody's moving pretty slowly. The average human walking speed is around 5 kph, which would convert to roughly 8 meters per round, using 6-second rounds.

>>15544865
Hmm... An interesting idea. Knowledge in the area of magic would help the user better understand and resist the magic. I think that works. What about the roll? Magic is mental and then whatever virtue the spell is. Would it be Courage for resistance or Wisdom for knowledge?

>>15544884
It's not 6 meters per round, its 6 meters per action, so you could move at 12m/6 sec for an average of 2m/s which I think is appropriate.

>>15544944
Perhaps make the roll against the Virtue of the spell itself?

>>15544534
Sure. Can't wait for the finished piece.

>>15544944
That's still pretty slow when you consider that's the *fastest* you can move. 2 m/sec is basically a brisk walk.
Generally, the way the abstraction of actions per round goes, taking a single move represents moving at a leisurely pace through the whole round while doing other things, or moving at a faster pace for only part of the round and using the rest of the round to do something else. Using both actions to move means moving at a quick pace through the whole round.

All we'd have to do to fix this is change the formula for calculating movement from 10 - Mass to 12 - Mass.

>>15545265
We had this discussion a few times before already.

It works either way, but I think having a slightly lower movement speed makes it easier to design rooms and obstacles, as well as making quick step maneuvers more valuable. On the other hand, 8 spaces does encourage more movement.

It works either way, but I think it needs testing to see what fits better.

>>15545265
Anything faster than a "brisk walk" is opening yourself up to attack. You would move that slow to make sure that enemies don't maul you when you run up to them.

>>15545131
I'm actually leaning more towards Courage for all magic defense rolls. There aren't many spells in the Courage domain, so maybe that could be where the anti-magic stuff is, like dispel.

>>15545573
There's a *lot* of space between "brisk walk" and "reckless sprint". Really, a light jogging pace (not really a jogging gait, but that rate of movement) would be very appropriate for combat.

>>15545563
I'm not thinking so much in terms of "what impact does this have on the mechanics" as "what are these mechanics representing". Essentially, what we have right now is a base movement speed ported directly from D&D, ignoring the fact that our squares are smaller, meaning our movement speed is slower than that used in D&D (which is actually pretty realistic).
Personally, I find unrealistic measurements like that kind of grating, since I tend to try to picture the physical environment of the game based on what's given in the grid, rather than thinking in terms of grid squares themselves. If you think strictly in terms of grid-based movement and tactics, it doesn't really matter what those squares convert to in real-world measurements, but the wrong measurements can be kind of immersion-breaking if you're using the grid as a rough tool to define the physical layout of the area. I'm more concerned with where my character is in the room than I am with where his mini is on the grid, and the implications of the two things are very different.

It's a very simple fix -- either tweak the movement speeds and remember that rooms will need more squares than they do in D&D, or switch to imperial measurements and 5-foot squares. Each side has it's drawbacks (the metric version means more squares per room, while the imperial version...well, uses imperial units), but either one would be better than trying to use metric units in a system meant for imperial. If you want to retain any kind of verisimilitude in the measurements, you simply can't take a system designed around imperial measurements and port the numbers directly to a metric-based grid without doing some conversions.

>>15545914
You make a good point. I'd like to get more opinions before we change the movement system though. Personally, I don't see a need for a change, but would not be opposed to changing the formula to 12-mass.

>>15545914
More squares per room just makes the necessary paper for a dungeon bigger if you're playing on a tabletop, I suppose.
The average room in the GB Zelda games (read: tiles that fit in a screen) is 9x13, in case anyone was wondering.

(Pic related for imperial units. No offense, and I realize that the majority of /tg/ is from the US, but some of us aren't.)
(Then again, a Swedish mile is ten kilometers, and no one else uses that, so yeah.)

>>15545985
Oh, and the formula was originally 12-Mass, IIRC.
But the mass of a human was 'bout 5-6 I think.
It was early on in the first threads.

>>15546038
Original thinking that we created was movement = 10 minus mass

Average mass for a "Human" was 4. We could make it 12 minus mass? That would make Koroks and Dekus borderline outrageously fast, though.

>>15546181
Fits their nature, though. Deku can be pretty speedy.

>>15546181
>>15546192
Deku/Korok speed would be 10m/6sec, so about 1.66m/sec or 6km/h

>>15546252
Oops, multiply all those values x2, I forgot that's per action.

Hey there folks. I haven't been round the threads for awhile due to thesis work. But I just got my new intuos4 and I'm ready to drawfag this place up something fierce. I see someone's taken the helm of the mask shop maker, but I'll finish what I started for the hell of it later.

Heres a Twili Mage and Hylian Warrior.

>>15546252
>>15546272
Those numbers sound pretty reasonable to me. It's quick, but not absurdly so.

>>15546544
Considering that's the fastest you can go, yeah.
Any rules for fast travel/running speed? Mostly for chase scenes or whatever, but it might be useful.

>>15546597
We have a chart ripped from the DnD books on the wiki.

M. Category----Per Day----Per Hour----Per Minute

Light----------35 miles---3.5 miles---350 ft.

Medium---------30 miles---3 miles-----300 ft.

Heavy----------25 miles---2.5 miles---250 ft.

It's in imperial units, which is probably a problem if all other measurements are in metrics.

>>15546732
I think that's for long-distance travel, not sprinting-type stuff like >>15546597 was asking about.

>>15546732
Converted to metric, rounded to nearest two decimals:

M. Category----Per Day----Per Hour----Per Minute

Light----------56.33 km---5.63 km-----106.68 m

Medium---------48.28 km---4.82 km-----91.44 m

Heavy----------40.23 km---4.02 km-----76.2 m

>>15546847
Yeah. I know some systems have it as a multiplier, but that's pretty much it. Perhaps have run-speed be dependent on |Athletics|?

>>15546916
Friendly Neighborhood DM and I were discussing the lack of a need for an athletics skill. We simply said that climb/jump/swim were simple to do and so could be represented by a formula involving mass and your physical stat. We didn't discuss the involvement of endurance running though.

>>15546969
Otherwise an athletics skill would work for additional speed/training compared to someone who is untrained.
Not everyone can run like professional runners after all. High Physical doesn't need to imply speed: a weightlifter is strong, but not necessarily fast.

...I suppose that I like the concept of the skill itself, much like I liked |Tool| and it's ilk before they were scrapped. I suspect that I'd LOVE DnD and it's skill system if I ever got to try it.

>>15547068
A huge skill list like DnD is exactly what I want to avoid. I want to keep it as simple as possible.

>>15546916
I don't think we should have an |Athletics| skill, but we could have run speed dependent on your Physical stat in some way.

Heaven or Hell.

Here's my suggestion for some spells:

Haste (Courage)
Buff
Prerequisites: |Magic| 3
MP: 6
Duration: 1 round/success
Range: 10
Target: Single creature
The target creature gains an extra action action per round for the duration of the spell. The caster rolls |Magic| against difficulty 4 to determine duration.

Slow (Power)
Debuff
Prerequisites: |Magic| 3
6 MP
Duration: 1 round/success
Range: 10
Target: Single creature
The target creature looses an action action per round for the duration of the spell. The caster rolls |Magic| against the target's |Magic|Courage (or Mental|Courage if magic is unavailable) to determine success. If success of the target match or outweigh the caster's, the spell in negated.

>>15547599
Aw, I liked the ditigal aura of twilight particles around the mage :U

Love the texture on the fabric though, and I consider anything in a pointy wizard hat to be automatically awesome.

If I could make a request, I had an idea that I think your style would be suited for more than mine. A psychotic, completely unhinged-looking Deku Scrub with a Dagger and fire magic, eyepatch, and rogue-ish dirty scoundrel clothes.

'Is name's Red, and he's got Autumn coloring on his leaves.

>>15547641
Hrm. Slow would definitely be Wisdom.

>source ingsbly
See? Inglip's ministers say so, and who am I to disagree?

>>15547599
Neat style you've got there.

>>15547693
Belkar the Deku Scrub?

>>15547705
Aye.

>>15547705
Ah, you're right. Wisdom houses in it's domain "subtle" debuffs. I haven't seen any like that so I forgot.

>>15542024

Sorry about that - I wanted to leave the concept open for you, but basically it's a shadowy Sheikah doing the bodyguard thing and stopping a shadowy Twili from doing shadowy things to the person they're protecting from the shadows.
Possibly set in the shadows with shadow attacks.

P.S.: Shadows shadows shadows.
___

Weighing in on the movement and squares argument, I'm pretty sure you can move a fraction of a "room square" in a lot of the games.

Even pushing blocks in Ocarina of Time is about 3 moves per "block square".
___

Just to be mad, what if puzzles had something like a character sheet that records what certain tags do to them, the steps that need to be completed in order to beat them, etc.?

>>15547757
Ugh. That seems like it would complicate things for the GM even more.
THen again, I'm not that experienced. Others may disagree.

>>15547757
It may just be sleep deprivation, but I laughed like an idiot at the P.S.

I think I have the perfect Twili for the job; I was going to draw him after the Mask Maker was done (Which I am delaying until I've slept)

Basically a Physical Power based Twili wielding a glorified cleaver.

>>15543599
My suggestion for the formula was here: >>15529811. Is there any more input on this? Alterations/critiques/suggestions?

MAGIC: We need a more clear definition of what types of effects are handled by which Virtues. After making that separation, we can just list a few spells as an example for each category of effects as a starter.

>>15548356
There's a clarification of spell groups listed on the wiki. I think it works well.

Power
Offensive magic (both damaging and debilitating)
Terrain-altering magic
Wisdom
Healing and defensive magic
Illusions and similar "subtle" debuffs
Courage
Travel/exploration magic (think Farore's Wind)
Offensive buffs

>>15543213
>I just had another idea about multiple magics at a time. A spell could count for a number of spells based on it's rank
I feel like this makes things a bit more complicated than it really needs to be. I'd rather have high-level spells restricted more by MP cost than by hard restrictions (and we'll see some of that later on here).

>>15547641
I like these spells, though I agree that Slow should probably be Wisdom.

>>15542864
Looks like we're cool with these spells here, so I'll go ahead and move on to the next few:

Fairy Form (Courage)
Transformation
Rank 2
2 MP (Sustain)
Duration: Sustain
Range: Touch
Target: Single creature
Roll: 4 successes (2+)

With a word, your body explodes into a cloud of glittering dust, revealing a tiny, flying figure when it clears.
You or the target Shrinks and gains a fly speed of 6 for the duration of the spell.

Here are the proposed rules for Shrunken forms:
-Your Mass is 0
-Your Movement is half it's normal value.
-You cannot deal damage to normal-sized creatures.
-You recieve double damage from normal-sized creatures.
-You can fit through grates, holes, and other small openings.
-You get a (+2?) bonus to Stealth towards normal-sized creatures.
>Should probably also include modifiers to defense against normal-sized creatures; I'd say bonus to passive and acrobatic (same as whatever we decide for the |stealth| bonus), and you can't use shield or parry.

>>15548503
>These next two were originally one spell with an option of two ways to do it, but I feel like that's not really appropriate so I've split them up:
Fire Arrow (Power)
Attack
Rank 1
2 MP
Duration: Instantaneous or one round; see text
Range: Touch
Target: A single arrow or crossbow bolt
Roll: 2 successes (2+)

An arrow is charged with magical flame before it is fired.
Add 1/2 heart (Fire) to the damage increment of the affected missile. If the missile is one that you have loaded in your own weapon, you may fire immediately as part of this spell. Otherwise, the spell persists until the beginning of your next turn.

---------------------------------------
Ice Arrow (Power)
Attack
Rank 1
2 MP
Duration: Instantaneous or one round; see text
Range: Touch
Target: A single arrow or crossbow bolt
Roll: 2 successes (2+)

An arrow is charged with magical flame before it is fired.
Add 1/4 heart (Ice) to the damage increment of the affected missile. Additionally, the speed of the target of that missile is reduced for 1 round by 1 for each success on the attack roll. If the missile is one that you have loaded in your own weapon, you may fire immediately as part of this spell. Otherwise, the spell persists until the beginning of your next turn.

>Possibly overpowered? The original version, in addition to giving the choice between fire and ice, said to stack the effect of a Fire or Ice spell onto the arrow, and it wasn't clear if firing it would be a separate action or not. If it was a separate action, that would definitely compensate for the power level, but I feel like it might be too much of a nerf -- it'd be hard to justify lumping it all into one attack roll rather than just taking one action to attack and another to cast Fire or Ice -- so the best fix would probably be to nerf the effect added to the arrow.

>>15548511
Good point. Every canonical appearance has them as separate. Maybe half a heart instead of a quarter? These are meant to be rather nasty and late-game artifacts...

>>15548528
>These are meant to be rather nasty and late-game artifacts...
True in OoT and WW, though not so much in MM.

These ones are tricky to work with at a high power level since they're less for a dedicated caster as they are an aid for an archer, which means it's hard to justify a high |magic| requirement or MP cost. Plus I'd prefer to stick as close to the MP costs in the video games as possible when it comes to direct exports.

On fairy form, I would say +2k2 on stealth, acrobatics and passive defense. Everything else looks good.

Fire and Ice arrows, I think everything looks fine. I agree with making firing of the arrow or bolt available as part of the action. If you decide to do it with both of your actions, you would be spending 4MP/round. Someone with 1 mental is only going to have 6MP, so I don't think it's overpowered.

What about the "freezes enemies solid" mechanic of the ice arrows?

>>15549817
Hmm.. maybe 5+ successes, or if the speed is reduced to 0, then it completely freezes the target?

>sir miublic
I think this might be the name of my next paladin. Thanks captcha.

>>15549854
Sounds about right.

Anyone else a bit dubious on the Fairy Form ability in terms of how it fits canon?

>>15503158
Terminans are essentially Hylians with an alternate history. Mask usage might be part of their culture, but transformations (from what we've seen) aren't really as much. Should be able to get along with the Hylian career.

Mind you, mask crafting rules would be interesting. How would you make a character that can do that?

>>15550234
Not at all dubious. It was one of the spells Link could learn in Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link.

>>15550285
Maybe mask materials or components could be given out hey the GM as treasure, and the mask maker could craft it off-screen. Basically, it's the same as if the GM had given the players the mask itself, but in a way that indulges the mask maker.

Since carefully controlled treasure distribution is very imortant for this sort if game, it's probably easier for the GM to choose what mask (or a selection of masks) can be made with the materials, than to add in some kind of crafting system that might be abused for fun and profit.

>>15550518
Ahhh... Maybe that's how you could get around having race-specific dungeon puzzles. If your party lacks the specific race needed, make them go on a side-quest to get a mask that they can use to complete it!

>>15550622
Mind you, when you take into account how that kind of mask is made, there's potential for all sorts of hilarity. (And isn't that more of a Termina-campaigns only solution?)

>>15550622
Good idea, we need to save that as a tip for the PDF.

>>15550769
Depends on what ideas GM's want to use for their game. Maybe they could come up with a less necromantic alternative if the standard way raises unwanted moral concerns.

All this talk about masks made me draft some Transformation ideas. They need a lot of refining.

>Two kinds of transformation- Complete and Scale transformations
>Complete transformation is where your body takes on an entirely new shape and function. 
>-Use a NPC/Monster statblock for your new form
>-New rolls, not based on your current stats 
>-Your Life and Magic remain the same, however.
>Scale transformation is where your body remains the same, with only a difference in size.

>Giant
When you become giant:
-You add 20 to your mass (or maybe you just multiply it, or whatever. When you're this big, your exact mass doesn't matter much)
-Your Space becomes 3 steps higher than usual (4x4 if your space was 1x1 originally)
Your speed doubles.
You take 1/2 damage from all sources and deal x2 damage with all attacks. (giant enemies should deal twice as much damage as usual so they're a threat to giant players.)
-You take a -2k0 penalty to acrobatics, stealth, attack rolls against creatures of a Size 2 steps below your own (2x2 or lower for a 4x4 giant.)

>here's the tricky balance stuff that needs critique
-You cannot use any consumable item. If you use a projectile weapon, the ammunition disappears immediately after it hits (no giant bombs, or giant arrows stuck in the countryside )
-You cannot use any Magic spell or Technique that requires MP and your MP cannot be restored by an external source. (this is from the Giant's Mask, where all your MP was being put into maintaining your size.) 

>>15550844
Don't forget the third kind of mask: the ones that do some small thing such as enhance your sense of smell, let you pretend to be an undead warrior, or just promote a feeling of harmony...

What about those comparatively weak masks?

Finished.

Thinking of doing a Twili knight of some sort next, maybe a Kokiri after that.

>>15550968

I like it very much, this has to be one of the bests gorons pic i have seen, congrats i like the instrument too, very original.

Maybe you can draw a male zora warrior with a bonefish violin. I hope you take this as a request lol.

>>15551004

I meant a male bladed fins zora warrior with a violin made of bonefish cause thats the PC im gonna play as.

>>15550968
Looks cool. How do you... play that... thing?

>>15551041

Like a didgeridoo, but the Goron probably calls the thing a flute.

>>15551004

Not sure if I'll be doing a musician again anytime soon, as I don't want to be repeating myself too much here, but I'll consider it if I ever get around to doing a Zora.

>>15551041
Like a didgeridoo? I'm just as impressed, this could be official art if I didn't know better.

>>15550909
Those aren't really full Transformation masks, though. They give new abilities, but don't dramatically alter your body.

More ideas:
>Sizes
6x6 and upwards could just be referred to by their numbers.
Colossal: occupies a 5x5 space 
Giant: occupies a 4x4 space
Huge: occupies a 3x3 space
Large: Occupies a 2x2 space
Small and Medium: occupy 1 space.
Tiny: occupies 1/4 of a space, can enter other creatures spaces, but take -1k0 to defense while in another creature's space.
Minish: Too small to fill a space, can enter other creatures spaces

Scale ideas
To normal-scale creatures, Minish-sized creatures have a mass of 0. But at Minish scale, M1 is the same as Mass 1 to a normal-scale creature. An average shrunken human (usually mass 4) would have a mass of M4.

Minish scale could have one normal sized space be equal to 4x4 or 6x6 Minish scale spaces.

It would also be cool to have mount/vehicle scale for mounted combat on the sea or open terrain (where 2x2 spaces become 1x1 spaces) and giant scale if a majority of the party gets huge or something, or if they're in a giant temple (Like a reverse Minish Cap dungeon)

Here's my suggestion for calculating Climb/swim speeds and jump distances, suggested earlier.

Climb/swim speed = (2x Physical) - (1/2 Mass). Round down the total, this is how many squares you can move in 1 action while climbing or swimming. This can be modified by racial traits, techniques, items, or magic.

Jumping: (2x Physical) - Mass. This is the number of spaces you can move while jumping, minimum 1 space This can be modified by racial traits, techniques, items, or magic.

Sound good to everybody? If there's no objection before tomorrow, I'll go ahead and add it to the wiki under a "Movement" section.

Also, did we decide on using the metric or standard measurement system? I personally prefer metric, with 1 space being equal to 1 meter.

>>15551136
I agree with these formulae. I vote for staying with metrics. (Meters are easily estimated into yards anyways.)

>>15551136
Or those speeds can also be just 1/2 your regular speed. That might be easier.

>>15551177
That was one idea, but we wanted to include Physical somehow, so there's variation between characters of the same race sizes.

>>15551299
Maybe include a series of cheap techniques to boost them that use your Physical as a prerequisite? Like, "1-2XP for the first rank" cheap.
Or add 1/2 or 1/3 of your Physical score to those speeds.
Or something else. I just know there has to be a simpler way to do it.

Before we start autosaging, we need an archive. And we need to add a lot of things to the wiki. I've seen the spell list reported at least 4 times.

>>15551961
Agreed. I don't actually know how to archive, though. Should probably learn.

>>15551361
I figured we'd have techniques for increasing those, but I'd prefer those be independent of Physical, so somebody with a low Physical score could invest in them and make up for their relatively limited climb/jump/swim ability.

I dunno, having it just be 1/2 speed seems almost TOO simple, too much the same among many different characters. I also don't see Koroks swimming that well, on average, since they would be be default vastly outpacing even the medium races.

>>15551078
I like the idea of a different Mass scale for minish-size stuff. Should we perhaps apply a similar principle to giant-size stuff as well? It strikes me that our current system of "each point of Mass subtracts 1 speed" kind of breaks down at the high end of the scale...

>>15551961
I just checked the archive, and we are in there:
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15496100/

As for the spells, I'll post what we've discussed here on the wiki after I get home from work this evening, unless someone beats me to it.

>>15552947
It could be a series of techniques, one for each movement type.

Swimmer 1
Prerequisite: Physical 2
XP cost: 2
Passive Technique
You get a +1 bonus to your swim speed.

Swimmer 2
Prerequisite: Physical 3
XP cost: 3
Passive Technique
You get a +1 bonus to your swim speed.

It's not perfect. While I think that characters with high physical should be able to use those types of alternate movement more effectively, it seems weird to have a whole alternate tech tree to improve each one.

Nothing is wrong with being simple; we have been striving for as simple a system as possible (with varying results.) This technique idea isn't the best solution, but I'm not sure complex formulas are either.

Also, koroks could be a special case like Gorons.

>>15554911
Forgot my namefag.

>>15554423
I think that "10-mass" thing doesn't have to apply to every race. Kokiri are mass 3 by default, but have a speed of 6 due to their small size. Abd zora gave a swim speed higher than their regular speed.

As for giant scale stuff, I assume that a similar Mass conjunction would be included as well- but only when using that scale for exploration or combat. The mass of a creature big enough to be recognizable on Giant scale would be upwards of 10 on the normal scale.

On that note, does this sound reasonable?

4x4 Minish squares = 1 regular square (a Keese is a Large sized creature to a minish- perfect for a mount?)
1 Mount/Vehicle(Field?) square = 2x2 regular squares (A horse would take up one space)
1 Giant square = 4x4 regular squares (that same horse would take up 1/4 of a space.)

>>15551078
Still, how are we handling them?

>>15554999
Kokiri are listed as Movement 7 on the wiki. Why would they be slower, exactly? It doesn't make sense that their speed would be penalized while the Korok and Deku Scrub wouldn't, and at that point we've abandoned the 10-Mass thing entirely. I was never a fan of directly correlating Mass to Speed in the first place, but there was a lot of resistance to changing it. If we're going to stick with 10-Mass for "regular sized" creatures, there shouldn't be random exceptions.

>>15554911
Could probably lump them together into a tech called Athleticism. While I guess 1/2 speed works for climbing and swimming well enough, I'd prefer that not be the formula for jumping. The (2x Physical) - Mass, minimum 1, makes a lot more sense for that. Or maybe just something more standard, but 1/2 or 1/4 movement just doesn't seem right.

Any input on movement from others? Probably shouldn't be decided by two people.

Man, poor Gorons. They can't get anywhere for shit.

>>15555378
Connecting Mass to Speed was an effecient way to make sure things like Iron boots both made a PC heavier and slower at the same time.

I had suggested we go for 12 minus mass yesterday, to get around the "Everyone is slow" issue.

Kokiri had a speed penalty due to short child legs (An adult runs faster than a child, after all) while Deku retain their fast speed the display in the games. I'm not sure about Korok's speed, since we never really see them haul ass nor move cripplingly slowly.

As for Gorons being unable to get anywhere, consider their roll ability used for transportation rather than offense. Gorons cant ride horses because they're too heavy, but can probably roll as fast as horses anyway.

>>15555378
Another thing re: athletic actions, I had thought something like jumping a chasm was a physical courage check, not "Your speed says you can jump X squares"

>mmonyur Mass.
Captcha has a few things to say about Mass.

>>15555378
>Man, poor Gorons. They can't get anywhere for shit.
Unless they roll...

At any rate, I'm not so sure Mass should have any more impact on jumping than it does for climbing/swimming, seeing as a bigger creature will have more muscle mass to compensate. In fact, we could remove the Mass factor altogether and just have it based solely on Physical, and still get pretty reasonable numbers -- the world record for long jump IRL is just under 9 meters, and if we set the long jump distance at 2x Physical a character with 4 Physical would have a long jump of 8 meters. That's not at all unreasonable.

I'd say your maximum long jump = 2x Physical with a running start, or half that (distance = Physical) for a standing long jump. High jump could be 1/2 Physical if we want to be realistic (world record IRL is 2.45 meters), or just equal to Physical if we want to be a little more fantastic. And likewise, halved for a standing high jump.

Climb should probably be related to Mass (smaller animals do tend to be better climbers IRL), but I almost want to say swim speed should be *inversely* proportional to Mass, since a lightweight would be more affected by water resistance...but maybe this is too complicated?

>>15555612
>Another thing re: athletic actions, I had thought something like jumping a chasm was a physical courage check, not "Your speed says you can jump X squares"

I think the idea for having set speeds for climbing/swimming/jumping/etc grew out of the issue of jumping being under |acrobatics| while the others had no skill. I don't recall exactly how it happened, but that discussion starts around here if you want to read over it >>15516951

>>15555378
Whatever it is, we should come to a decision soon, because we don't make much progress when we keep going back to old ideas.

Acrobatics could play a part in it, where your jump speed is equal to 1 + your skill level. Or it could be 1/3 of your regular speed.

Also, with a jump speed of 1, should we note that the number is the number of spaces you clear? Or bump the minimum jump speed to 2 so that players know for sure how many spaces they move? Otherwise, with a jump speed of 1, you can't clear a 1 meter gap, since you would move one space into the hole.

Speed could play into it as well: you should be able jump during a move action, and you could add half your speed to your jump if you moved at least half your speed before jumping?

And as for climbing/swimming/crawling, if used as a part of a move action, they could use up 2 "points" of movement; so if you have a speed of 6 and hit a climbable wall after moving 2 spaces, you could climb 2 spaces for the rest of that move action.

Just throwing out ideas to get things moving.

>>15555669
We originally started the project with the idea that you would be making checks for all these movement types, but the popular opinion now seems to be geared towards set speeds for each type. Set speeds make movement and exploration less risky and tedious, and in Zelda-like environments, those things are very important.

Maybe you could make a check to try and squeeze an extra square or two out for a jump, but it might not be the best way to move normally.

>>15555740
>Maybe you could make a check to try and squeeze an extra square or two out for a jump, but it might not be the best way to move normally.

This; What I'm thinking is you do have set speeds, and you can make checks to make a bigger task. Like, you can jump X number of squares, but you can make a check to increase that number.

A thought about Defense vs. Magic:
Certain spells, like Din's Fire, are unavoidable for enemies.
Certain bosses, like Possessed Zelda in TP, have AoE attacks that are also unavoidable within their area of effect.

How should that be reflected on the tabletop? Will certain spells require time to charge?

>>15555936
Sure.
Since Link has to do his Kamehameha move before activating Din Fire..

>>15555684
>Also, with a jump speed of 1, should we note that the number is the number of spaces you clear?

I think I'd prefer this to the alternative.

Also, I like the idea of just having climbing and swimming cost 2 points of movement rather than some kind of calculation. As for jumping, I think >>15555635 is a good way of doing it. Something like your long jump distance is equal to your Physical, high jump is 1/2 Physical, and either of these can be doubled with a running start.
Then we can of course have techs to improve these if people would like, though these can probably be put on the back burner until after we get some playtesting done.

>>15555893
I also like this idea.

>>15555936
I believe the proposals in previous threads for stuff like Din's Fire and the LttP medallions had you roll an unopposed |magic| check and deal automatic damage for each success. I don't know if this would be enough of a balancing factor, but if not a multi-action casting time/charging period seems like a reasonable way to balance it.

>>15555950
Climbing and swimming costing 2 movement is exactly the same as climb and swim = half speed. I suggested that a long time ago, but then thought that Physical should factor in.

>>15555893
This is probably the answer were looking for. Have a simple set speed (aka half speed/costs 2 movement) for climb and swim, and if you want to do more than that, then you can roll for it.

>>15555635
I like the jumping mechanics here.

>>15556602
It's either that or make a separate attack roll for each enemy, which would be a huge pain for the player and GM.

We figured out earlier that bombs would do a certain amount of damage, and instead of the bomb's user attacking for the bomb, the bomb's target rolled an unopposed defense check to see if it could avoid the damage. So if the threshold was 3 successes, and the target only got one success, then they would take two increments of damage from the bomb.

We could use that for AoE spells; have enemies roll Defense against a set number.

Also, tektite
http://i.imgur.com/37ou9.jpg

>>15557287
The one issue I'd have with that is that, while it seems reasonable to be able to avoid a relatively small blast like a bomb, it doesn't make quite as much sense to me to be able to avoid damage from a massive gout of flame engulfing the entire area. I still can't quite wrap my mind around how you can make a reflex save for half damage against fireballs in D&D, so I'd rather avoid such a nonsensical mechanic in this system if at all possible.

>>15557663
Its not trying to reflexively not be on fire, its more like trying to brute-force your way through the blast. Think trying to brace yourself in order to not get knocked down by gale-force wind

except instead of gale force wind its a giant fireball

Another way of handling it is the opposite of how bombs function. for area magic, the attacker rolls unopposed dice and successes are damage increments against targets in the area.

>>15555893
I think this might be the best way to do it, using the base distance = Physical, x2 with a running start for jumping. Physical(Power) check can increase distance at a rate of... 1 square for 2 successes, assuming a 4 = success?

If we do that, I think we can say that the # of squares is the number you move, not clear. With a minimum 1, a person with a shit Physical score can still clear a 1 square gap with a check.

Not sure on Climb/Swim speeds, but this seems like a good way to go.

>>15555574
See, but if you start making exceptions to the 10-Mass thing because of "little kid legs" the system starts to fall apart. We've got to stick to it, or just assign races a base speed independently and have armor penalties apply to acrobatics, speed, and probably climb/jump/swim distances since those are no longer dependent on speed or mass.

>>15557663
You can duck and cover, reduce your exposure to the blast, hold up a shield to defend yourself, position yourself in a way so as to avoid the worst of the effect. It might not be especially realistic, but it's better than having all AoE spells become instant rape zones.

>>15557871
That seems like it might work, but it's less fair for both parties: if the caster rolls poorly, nobody gets hurt at all, and if they roll very well, everyone gets seriously hurt without a chance to resist.

http://i.imgur.com/wIgQ8.jpg
Dodongo sketches, I feel like I can draw again. Any requests? I'd like to draw a something Minish at some point.

>>15557978
Automatic damage is probably not a great way to go, for any attack. Making multiple attacks isn't a good alternative, but rolling once and having each defender roll separately might be the best we can get. Maybe, with set damage on the spell, the attacker rolls unopposed, and gets a certain number of successes. Defenders then roll unopposed and have to meet or beat the number of successes set by the attacker. That was you don't have to compare the attacker against each and every defender.

>>15558016
I can see that happening. The preset check difficulty would only be for things like bombs, which don't rely on a virtue or attribute to determine their damage or accuracy.

Also, how far are we until autosage. And whoever can make the new thread should either include the ongoing discussion or aske people to read this thread, since every new thread causes issues to be forgotten or reset.

>>15557978
See pic for Instant Rape Zone.
(which could be circumvented by making it a multi-turn thing.)

>>15558467
To be fair, there was a huge start up on that ability, giving plenty of time to react and jump out of it.

drawfag who said I'd do some of the enemies here.

Just finished these octoroks. Any suggestions on which to do next?

I'm going for a design that kind of melds the style of all of the zelda games.

MOVEMENT: Okay, to summarize what I think has the most support right now, for Climbing and Swimming speeds, it's 1/2 your speed, (round down). For jumping the distance you can move is = your Physical, twice that with a running start. For either of these, you can increase the distance with a Physical(Courage or Power) check, gaining an additional 1 space for every 2 successes.

Does that sound good to everybody for now? I included Power, because it just makes sense. I'm also a fan of things that allow 1 of 2 Virtues, because it makes it more accessible to more characters, especially for basic stuff like this.

We can worry about techs for this later, I think. Should probably get back to magic/songs and items.

>>15558972

You could try a river zora spitting a fireball next.

>>15559372
I agree with these.
I'll try to work out a sort of encouragement song for strengthening your allies in battle. I'll post it later on.

Sure, I'll do that next. That'll be a bit complicated because I want them to resemble normal zoras somewhat rather than looking as ugly as they always have.

Anyway here's a Like-like, and rupee like lying in wait as a trap.

>>15559853
...Isn't them being monstrous the thing, though? Some games have both River and Ocean zora (read: one of the Oracle ones I think)

Awesome pics though.

>>15559885
Yeah, being monstrous is definitely important. But they should at least look like they're somewhat the same species, imo. Or at least like they share a common ancestry.

And obviously they should still be recognizable as river zoras.

>>15559372
This sounds good to me.

FYI, we are in autosage. Could someone make a new thread? I'd do it myself, but I just spent the past hour-and-a-half updating the wiki, and I really need to get some dinner.

I added the spells that were posted in this thread, plus the Sap Strength and Faultline spells from the last one. I also posted the combat actions from earlier in this thread, and a subsection under Combat for status effects like Dazed and Frozen and such.

>>15560283

Ok ill do it.

>>15560323

I tried to post a new thread copypasting as usual, but 4chan didnt let me do it cause it says it is a duplicate. Im a little busy right now so i will wait till the thread dies.

>>15560421
I'll give it a shot.

>>15560421
Do we need the copypasta anymore? We can get rid of it if needed. Don't wait to start a new thread if you can help it.

>>15559682
Would those work better as spells than songs? I thought that songs were supposed to be mostly environmental, though I guess improving your allies could be seen as spiritual.

.>>15559853
While I'm not sure I like how... gooey that like-like is, the coloring is superb.

I'll wait to post art until the new thread

Alright I got a new thread started:
>>15560584

I left out the copypasta. We can add it back in if necessary.