Also, just to say - loved the discussion in the previous thread. These are on record as being some of your potential thoughts.

Remember that Katesas and Daneg are both with you on this trip, and you can call upon their assistance and counsel if you'd like. Actually, you should call upon their counsel; gate-guests don't appreciate being dumped aside, and a reputation as a dictatorial ruler does very little good for you.

>>19709936

'It is, indeed, very well done.' Talk about why she paints, exchange some stories. Ask if she has any paintings of Theniron we can see.

In general, we can just relax I think. Wait for afternoon, and then go and see merinites.

>>19710030

'Why do I paint?' Sara thinks about this with a focused look on her face, while you look around the room. Leuc, and the other pretty servant girl, come in with snacks. 'I suppose it is simply a matter of expression, and of assertion. Is it not true, after all, that by painting a scene we assert some sort of ownership over it?'

You say you understand that feeling - certainly, from your goldsmithing experience, you've had that same thought before. You continue to make small talk, while outside the rain continues to pour down.

'Don't you have other things to ask, Adrian?' Sara looks at you, halfway through a small tea cake. 'You have a look on your face where you have questions unanswered. But are they for me?'

> What do/say/ask?

Ask her what she wants in life.

If we are going to consider her for a long term relationship, it would help if we knew what she is interested in in the long run.

>>19710185

This makes sense.

>>19710185
Right, I wanted to ask to. How does she want to lead her life, how does she want to affect the world and people around her, what does she want or expect to recieve for it ?

>>19710208
>>19710185

'What do I want in life?' she rolls up the painting scrolls and then hands them to an attendant before dismissing them. 'Well... I'd say that I want power. And I want to be with powerful people. That would be... first and foremost.'

That makes sense, considering she even thinks painting to be about asserting power. 'So what would that power be for, then? Would it be for any purpose?'

'It would be for my family, of course. And also to be remembered. See, Adrian, you are a man and you don't worry about this. But look at me.' She turns to look at you, and you notice her bright eyes are slightly bluish in hue. 'I am beautiful, am I not?'

'Certainly.'

'And yet, how long will I remain beautiful?' She turns away. 'So I must be remembered for other things. That's what it is. Otherwise I shall just be a footnote. I reckon it's the same as Guruniki. We want ourselves, and our family and realm, to make its mark on the world.'

She emphasises her family and realm as she says that, you notice.

'So, what about you? You've asked me a deep question, so i'll have to ask you back I reckon!' As she says this, you hear that the rain has mostly died down.

> What do/say?

>>19710287

We want power too. We want to get power, and to become a good ruler. We wish to strengthen our kingdom.

Power is always fun, but we are more interested in using power to get the end result than actually power itself.

Keeping the people safe and content and generally getting people to get along is one of the many worthwhile ways to apply power.

>>19710382
>>19710357

'A sage ruler sort of person, then,' she says. 'So very typical of the Imperials. I do wonder if you people ever realise how it's not possible for people to get along with those who have power...'

The conversation then goes into some other topics, before Orchid asks to come in. 'Sir.'

'Ah, yes.' You sit and Orchid kneels to whisper into your ear.

'Your instructions were to inform you when it's an hour past noon, sir. So you can go talk to lady Merinites? It's slightly past an hour now.'

'You have a very pretty attendant,' Sara says, when she sits back. 'Actually, two very pretty attendants. Someone with good taste, I guess?'

Orchid blushes a bit as you ponder what to do next. You did promise to see her, after all.

> What do/say?

>>19710446
She guesses correctly.

Excuse ourselves and go meet up with Merinites

>>19710503

You smile, proudly, putting a hand on Amaryllis' shoulder. 'I think you guess quite correctly, Sara. Now, if you'll excuse me...'

'It's that woman, isn't it?' Sara smiles. 'Leucanthemum, show his lordship the door.'

You are shown to the entrance of the compound, and look up to see that while there is no rain the sky is still loaded with clouds. With your two attendants following you, you make your way to Merinites' apartments, only to be met at the front door by the dancer, whose name you just found out is Hyacinth.

'Your lordship. Her ladyship is awaiting you now.'

Entering the apartment, you look around and see that Meri's been more like you than Sara in terms of interior decoration - the room is mostly as it was presented, though an intricate red tapestry hangs on the wall. The tapestry must be treated in some way; you can smell sandalwood, that highly expensive scent, wafting through the room subtly.

Meri is in the back room, dressed casually and seated at a table, playing stone-chess on a large board. Her hand holds a white stone daintily as she looks up at you. 'Ah, Adrian!' She stands up and bows. 'I know I asked to go fishing with you, but given the weather... would you still like to go?'

She smiles at you.

> What do/say?

>>19710624
Maybe if it clears up later, we don't want her to get soaked and catch a cold or something.

Stay indoors for now and play some boardgames or discuss politics.

> Okay, I'm going off for dinner for a bit, so I'll come back and continue later after this post.

>>19710671

'Well, let's see if the weather improves. I wouldn't want you to catch a cold,' you say, settling down at the opposite end of the table. Merinites shows you a shy smile, clearly pleased that you care.

'If that's the case... shall we play some stone-chess, then?' She quickly wipes the board and sorts the stones out, and soon you are playing. To your surprise, given how quiet she normally is, her starting moves are aggressive - you've hardly laid down three stones before she starts to challenge your territory, and within fifteen stones your lines are all tangled up with hers. Worse still, she actually seems to be getting the upper hand...

'I take it this isn't your favourite game?' Meri says.

'I can hold my own,' you say, almost sounding like you're gritting your teeth already. You capture two of her stones with your next move, only to realise she's led you to expose yourself too quickly, and now four of your stones are in danger of being cut off...

'Hmm. So, Adrian. I'm just wondering. You've seen all three of us now, and I'm sure you know a lot about Subaran and Theniron... so what do you think?'

'What do you mean, what do I think?'

'Well. About... the future, I suppose.' Meri cuts you off without mercy, sacrificing one of her stones to do so. Damn, she's good at this sort of long game. 'You know, you and I... we're pretty much on the same boat. The main branch of the tree runs another way, and we are left... high and dry. But you don't look like the sort to be content with that. I'd just like to know what you think.'

> What do/say? I'll be back and will look at replies.

>>19710802
The future is what it is, until then all I can do is prepare, whether that future is me rising in power and glory or me fading into the background.

While I strive to become a mover and shaker, I also cannot deny that a life spent enjoying fine things with a loving wife and attendants with nothing more to do than fish all day is also an attractive prospect, it's certainly far less work.

>>19710802

Well, truth be told, we are not content. But what can we do even then?
Also ask about her, then. If she's so interested, maybe she's got answers herself.

simple I seek to sprout my own tree that will outgrow the old. Now what about you?

>>19710977
Way way to blunt.

>>19710975
>>19710972
>>19710977
>>19711112

You consider, for a moment, saying what you were considering about splitting and 'growing your own tree', so to speak. But then you figure that while Saragites might like such daring, Meri doesn't seem like the sort to cherish it. So instead you sigh, both at your situation and the situation on the chess board.

'I am simply preparing for whatever the future brings. If it should allow me to rise, then that would be good... but I guess, if it allows me to sink, then I suppose I could take pleasure in the leisure of fishing and a loving wife...'

Of course, you are far from being such a fatalistic person, and so your deliberate pessimism is cut short with the loud clack of a stone on the board. You look at the white stone, placed near one end of Meri's formation. She looks at you.

'Surely, Adrian, you must be lying,' she says, softly. 'I've seen you. You aren't the sort of person to be that easily content, are you? I mean, even I-' but she cuts herself off and sighs. 'I apologise, I spoke out of turn.'

It seems to be something about her family and position that is bothering her. You recall what she said earlier today, about a tree that is not fatally diseased, yet is stunted...

> What do/say?

>>19711379
While I always strive for more, I can also enjoy what I have and I will not lament lost opportunities.

>>19711458

Dude, why are we looking so laid back now? Ask her more about what she's considering. She's holding something back herself.

>>19711379
I would be unsatisfied if the power is in my reach, and if I consider that it would be more useful in my hands that in those who hold it. But I can't reach for every power... I can't let myself be frustrated that I am not emperor.

>>19711379
"Please speak out of turn."

>>19711633
>>19711379
By the way, is there an emperor ? What's his name and his attributions ? How are the relations between kingdoms regulated ?
We discussed about trying to spark a war between Iru and Kaso... how would the traditions of both country affect that ? What would the leaders think about going to war against one another ? Which third power would intervene, and how ?

>>19711697
I think it's just a king but don't quote me on that.

> I'll write the reply after this, but clarification first:

There is an Emperor, per se - he is the Son of the Heavens, and all who own lands within the Realm are his servants. Three centuries ago, no one would have dared to doubt it - in those days there weren't even Kings, because a kingly title would imply equality with the Emperor, and that's simply not true.

But these days, conflict between states is mainly arbitrated much as it is in our time. When countries fight, they would often gather allies to do so, so there are coalitions fighting each other. Stronger kingdoms with interests in stopping or influencing the conflict might then step in and try to broker peace treaties or the like.

Thankfully, Iru is currently on the edge of the Realm, so it's not very likely that a Kaso-Iru war will be stopped by such considerations. On the other hand, that would mean that a Kaso-Iru war could well be a fight to the bitter end. You have to remember that your kingdom is a third Kaso's size, and its army is about a quarter the size of your rival. You cannot win this war without allies, and Kaso itself has allies...

>>19711650
>>19711516

'Well, see - if a peach is on a tree within my grasp and I cannot take it, then I am frustrated. But I am currently contemplating peaches that grow in the heavenly trees of the Northern Mountains...'

Meri sighs at that, at which you smile. 'Well. But in any case. I want you to speak out of turn.'

She looks at you for a moment, as if trying to figure if you are really inviting her. And then, finally, she puts down the stone in her hand and sits back, staring at the ceiling.

'Do you know, Adrian, that besides dance, I also know calligraphy? And music, and embroidery... there's a reason why I learned all those things, which is that there is simply very little for me to do. In my household, my father attempts to rule the small fief we have been given, and I don't think he need apologise to anyone for his conduct. But he is prematurely exhausted, and often ill.

'As for my two brothers, they rest easy on the prosperity of our town, and think that it can last all their lives if they don't work on it. Nonsense. They are magpies roosting on a roof, who don't realise the house underneath them is already on fire...

'I know, for a fact, that once my father passes - which I don't doubt he will soon, in his state - our fief will be revoked, eventually. My brothers only know how to take, but not to preserve. They sleep with their attendants, listen to music and drink all day. Who can stop it if the Duke, my uncle, just tells them to pack it away...?'

You listen, staring at the board and table, until suddenly you see raindrops splshing on the lacquered wood. No, not raindrops - teardrops. Merinites wipes her eyes, and looks up at you. Even with her eyes reddened, she is a marvellous-looking woman. Why are eastern royalty all so pretty, seriously?

> What do/say?

>>19711906
The idea, that I didn't approve of, was to take over Mar, and betray Iru to ally with Kaso for independance.

Do we know more about this emperor per se ? If he doesn't hold any power, does he hold any ambition ?

What did Kaso do during the war we led against the barbarians ? Why didn't it attack the rest of Iru while Mar was busy ?

>>19712025

Ask if this is why she's here. Ask why exactly is she here, then.

>>19712079

Betraying your own state (and therefore your own family) would pretty much make you a monster in terms of reputation - that's one obstacle you can think of.

As for 25 years ago, the reason Iru wasn't attacked was not because Kaso was timid - it was because Mar was left to defend itself without any support at all from the rest of the Kingdom. The King was angry that his brother attacked eastward without any authorisation, and he was also fearful of Kaso reaching in; so every available soldier was moved to the northwest frontier instead.

Kaso therefore felt an attack would be too costly. And Mar had to endure a nine-month siege.

>>19712083
Does she hope for a new place to live in, or for the power to take back or hold her fief ?

>>19712025
What do we know of the fate of the landless nobles ? Could she end up like that dancer she (or sara, don't remember) offered to us ?

>Who can stop it if the Duke, my uncle, just tells them to pack it away...?'
I don't suppose I can...

That makes me think, what can we expect for ourself when our father dies ? Besides our brothers, is there a lot of candidates for his succession ? How will it be decided ? What will we have if we don't get that ?

>>19712128
>>19712083

You sit back and consider her, as she wipes her eyes again. 'So... is this why you are here? To... find a new place to live? Or to find the power to somehow take back your fief?'

Merinites simply nods. For a long while there is silence, as you look out behind her to the apartment's gardens. The clouds have mostly cleared, and the light has gone back from grey to yellow. Birds are also beginning to return, chirping and singing.

'I have... done some preparations already,' she says, calmly this time. 'I hear that your lordship also has his preparations. Namely... his personal tribe of fierce warriors. Is that true?'

Well, that's just showing off her spy network then, you think. She goes on. 'I... have some advisors. And I also have... a small force. But I will need help... to secure any gains.'

'All for a small town in the middle of nowhere...'

'How about all for Subaran, then?' Her eyes glint.

> What do/say? Also, the fate of landless nobles - well, let's just say there's no limit to how low they can sink. Dying in penury happens, especially where the government can't or doesn't want to pay upkeep for their feckless relatives.

>>19712206

Neither you nor your brothers will succeed your father - as mentioned previously, the Appanage of Mar is not a hereditary fief, but filled by appointment from the Royal Court of Iru. There have been times when sons have been appointed, but that is quite rare.

The best you can hope for is to be the Premier Earl of Mar, much like Gesadag - he was the second son of the previous Prince, and his post is basically in order to advise the current Prince. If you don't get that, you'll simply continue being an Earl, and then get packed away into a small fief. Most then proceed to do artistic things, or drink and fuck their lives away because why not, right? Given the stipends for children, it's almost like having kids for the benefits.

>>19712235
Is she asking for our help to take over Subaran ? It's a nice prospect, but who would replace her uncle ?

Ask her if she's heard of a precedent in the history of her land, of a woman ruling over it ?

>>19712235

Ask her what she means. Surely she can't be considering a coup against her own family...

>>19712274
Somehow, I think our younger brother would accept that with more difficulty than the older ones. Could he hope for a position within the clergy, or just besides it ? Could Tinaga aim for a position in the army ?

If we're sent away from Mar, there's no real value in our wedding with Sara for her family... I'm surprised it's Meni who first asked about our goals.

>>19712371
>>19712333
Or maybe a war of conquest...

>>19712371
>>19712333

'All for Subaran...' you consider that, and then the realisation hits you. 'Surely, Merinites. You cannot be considering that.'

'But I am.'

'That's-' you glance around to make sure all the attendants have already been dismissed. 'You cannot possibly be considering the slaughter of your own family.'

'There will not be slaughter,' she says, calmly. Her demeanour is really something - you can tell the excitement in Sara's eyes when she asked about your ambitions, but in Meri's eyes there instead burns a steady determination. For Sara, to whom many good things might be expected to come quite naturally, her high spirits are natural; but for Meri, having spent time in the shadows, her bearing is somehow... harder. 'Unless there is.'

'Well. So are you considering being the duchess yourself, or-'

Seriously, Adrian, how thick can you get? Of course! That's what Meri is bringing with her. Her gaze now, it must be said, is somehow... deeply alluring, as she looks steadily at you.

> What do/say?

>>19712432
Well, we immediately thought about that, but... As the husband of the niece of the former ruler ? Our claim wouldn't be very solid. It would take a lot of effort to put down the local nobility and essentially establish a new dinasty... I can't see how we can avoid slaughter. I can't see how we could do that without an army.

How discontent is the people and the nobles with her uncles ? What about his sons ? What about her other cousins ?

>>19712432
Say it. "Alluring..."

That's a proposal that Sara will have a hard time matching. But do we have the ressources to follow through ? Shouldn't she try to go for a noble with more material power at his disposal ?

>>19712538
>>19712505

You raise your objections, and she nods. 'I know... I know all of those problems. It certainly won't be something that happens today or tomorrow. You see, Adrian, alone there is very little I can do to raise support. But with... help, it will become easier.'

'Are the people glad with your uncle, though? How about your cousins?'

She smiles. 'You really shouldn't be asking the fishmonger if his fish are fresh, should you? But since you've asked - I mentioned to you that the tree is stunted despite its long roots. The people of Subaran know all too well whose exactions, neglect and misrule have caused this. Who is the reason that those upstarts from across the river dare to display their warships right before our docks. They know, and they resent.'

You think about this. It appears Meri is playing the long game right now, is what it is. If that's the case, then an army can be thought about later... just then, Meri turns around to look outside.

'It's lovely weather. Would you like to go fishing?'

> What do/say?

>>19712538
As a member of the King of Iru's family, if we were to take Subaran, would we be expected to make it an appanage of Iru ? Would they just let us do our own thing in our corner of the map ?

>>19712624

Let's go fishing, then. And we can ask her more about everything.

Ask her what resources she's already gathered - I think we can see an excellent spy network is one of those. Ask why us.

>>19712624
Yeah, let's go get some fresh fish.

And I think I'd like you to invite us to fish in Subaran's waters after the festival. See the freshness for myself.

>>19712624
How many dynastic changes has there been in the last centuries of subaran's existence ?

>>19712683
>>19712657
>>19712637

It would technically become an appanage of Iru - that is exactly what happened with the Appanage of Mar, which used to be its own Duchy. But there might be ways around that too, of course.

You agree to go fishing, and Meri stands up and calls for people to get the gear ready. Then you get into a carriage. You sit opposite Meri, but then she sidles to one side, and pats the seat beside her in an invitation.

You pause, hesitating, as the carriage gets underway. You realise you can't really see where you're going... but you probably are headed towards the lake.

> What do/say? Questions are noted.

>>19712624
The main problem with all this, isn't the internal strife a takeover would spark, but the risks of an attack from therinon. The chaos we'll create will give them a good occasion, if they are already parading their warships nw.

>>19712726

You know, from reading your histories (this is what knowing six languages is for!), that the current line of dukes is the third line. Subaran is indeed an ancient house to have had such upheavals.

On two of the three occasions it was succession by marriage which settled the issue; on the last occasion there was a terrible civil war and a general, who was also distantly related to the ducal house, took over at the end.

... is there just one player here posting all the questions? just wondering.

>>19712742

Let's move to sit next to her. That might do more to convince her we're interested, and she'll tell us more.

>>19712774
Yes.
>>19712765
How long ago was that civil war ? Did they have any other bloody conflict recently, that might have expanded the people's willingness to shed blood for someone else's power ?

>>19712742
Sit besides her. Refusing would be rude.

>>19712742
Sit beside her if just to show that we might be interested so we can learn more. Information can be a very....valuable resource

>>19712827
Ugh. I meant expended.

>>19712854
Yeah, I think Sara and Meri would both be very interested in the other's plans. It's surprising that they confide relatively readily in us, while we still haven't chosen our side.

>>19712798
>>19712742

She chuckles as you squeeze in. Her body is warm and lithe, truly the build of a dancer. Now that you know some of her ambitions, you can't help but wonder if her dance training is also in some way martial...

'So. Why me? Surely you could have gone on to another nobleman with more resources.'

'Do you want an honest answer?' Meri's hair moves next to your face; she smells a little of sandalwood as well. 'Well. See, a nobleman with plenty of resources would be hard to... tie into the cause. Why work hard when you already have a base? But you, sir - you work hard to grow your base, and people know it.'

'What's the dishonest answer then?'

'Because you're very good looking!' Her previous sombre look suddenly cracks into a sunny expression, then a giggle.

'I'll take that compliment. So... what have you gathered so far?'

She nods, still smiling happily. As the carriage jolts, she nudges against you coyly. 'Well. The town we rule is normally allowed a garrison of 150 soldiers. But by creating militias and readying arms, we can gather up to 400 men immediately.'

That doesn't sound too promising. You known Subaran can summon up to 6,000 men at a time. Theniron can summon up to 7,000 apparently; Mar is severely limited by the royal court, but in a pinch it could gather about 5,000 or so men as well...

'I've also started storing up money and gifts,' she says, 'as well as people. One cannot do anything without talented people, Adrian... how about you, actually? Tell me what you have to offer.'

> What do/say/ask? Remember, you're not obliged to tell the truth - then again, she may well be able to know if you're lying.

>>19712911
Or maybe the willingness of Sara to go to war and of Meri to replace the Duke are both open secrets.

>>19712911
>>19712935

You guess they probably know about each other's secrets already. The two sides have been engaged in rivalry for years; it'd be a great surprise if they don't already know, roughly, what each other intends to do.

Alternatively, what they are telling you may only be a small part of their plans. Meri definitely seems to be more honest in this respect... or maybe the whole thing is a lie?

This reminds me of Genji somehow, but I only read a few posts, sp fucked any small boys yet?

>>19712914
I don't see the use in lying... We still have to grow our base, as she said, and don't have much. Some money, a few gate guests. No military force of our own, and little influence outside Margade.

Hm... How many Subs live in Margade ? Could we make up a force of exiled/emigrant Subs to help Meri ? Bay of Pigs style ?

>>19713018

No, he hasn't... and hesitant as I am to say this, welcome!

Might want to read a bit more, though. Just for context.

>>19713052

Meri nods. 'Well. What we both have is a bit of time. There's time to build up everything. It's the work that matters. Speaking of which...'

The carriage stops, and you follow Meri out into a wilderness - the grass underfoot wild and long, and the air smelling very fresh indeed, with a fresh breeze blowing. Through a screen of trees, you can see the East Lake; here, near the border and far from Margade, there is hardly a trace of the activity and pollution that makes the East Lake not particularly lovely where you live.

Meri nudges you, and you walk on, seeing that a path has already been trodden through the grass. As you approach the trees, you come across a straw mat on which several fish lie, already gutted - grass carp, silver carp, dace.

Looking through the trees, you see a man fishing; and as you approach he turns around and sees both of you. He quickly bows. 'Your ladyship. Your lordship.'

'You may have to reverse that soon,' Meri says, and gestures to the man. 'Adrian. As I said - you need all the men you can get, to grow fast. I'm not sure what gifts you might have gotten from across the river, but this is my gift. His name is Arahunir.'

A-Arahunir? Wait, is this that Arahunir whom Mormeregain and Katesas mentioned before, and whom everyone agrees is a man of unusual talent...?

> What do/say/ask?

>>19713248
"Are you the Arahunir I've heard of before ? They say that bla bla bla..."
Make them talk about how valuable a gift it is.
Ask Meri if she's really willing to part with him, while we still haven't decided to commit ourselves to her dream.

>>19713400

> Make them talk about how valuable a gift it is.
> Also, last post for tonight. It's a bit too quiet - might not be good to have a single player dominate an entire thread in a context-based game like this. Thanks for playing!

Sorry, what?

You ask if he is indeed the famed Arahunir, and he grins. 'Some... have given me a name I hardly deserve, sir.'

'He is being terribly humble,' Meri says. You turn to her and ask if she is really willing to part with him, and she raises an eyebrow before laughing.

'Are you that desperate for people that you don't talk to them before hiring them, Adrian? That is hardly wise!'

> What do/say? More suggestions welcome.

>>19713467
>Sorry, what?
I meant, make them talk about him, what he does, how talented he is. How valuable he is to us, though we should be more tactful than to ask it that way.

>>19713467
And thanks for running. Too bad the others left.

>>19713467
I'm sorry but what made Arahunir so special. I'm sorry that I need to be reminded. By the way, Meri is seeming much more appealing than Sara now by far. We might as well ask Arahunir what he could contribute, and why he my want to work with us.

>>19713467
Sorry if this seems too unrelated but how do Subaran's,Theniron's, Mar's and that nomad tribe's troops compare to one another? So far, I've been comparing Subaran and Theniron to ancient Korea and the nomad's to Central Asian nomads and I think i remember those troops to being of a higher quality than those of China at the time.

>>19713603
>>19713681

Well, Arahunir is mostly famous for being intellectually talented and full of strategy. You're not really sure how he got that reputation, though... at least until you ask him.

(No need to apologise, you've really only heard of this guy as being 'famous'. Not sure what he's famous *for*, until now.)

It turns out that he has in fact been serving as an envoy and councillor for the Ducal court in Subaran for five or six years, and during that time he has represented the court in meetings with Theniron, as well as the many Easterner tribes and smaller city-states that litter the area. He also served as teacher to the ducal family, and he feels that of all the younger generation in the family currently, Meri is the best student.

As for the troop types, well - the troops of Mar (and Iru in general) are based around heavy infantry, along with massive firepower supplied by crossbows and bowmen.

Theniron and Subaran also possess good heavy infantry, supplemented by heavy cavalry from the plains around them. The Hillmen often fight as light, fierce infantry levies; the hills are rich in iron, and they are well known for their fearsome all-iron javelins and their very fine swords.

Well, I just got home from work myself so...

I have a suggestion. If you want to improve turnout, a schedule would probably not be amiss. I can't always make every game when the start times vary wildly, and there have been two or three times when I've been playing ArmAII or something full screen for ~4 hours only to find out you started a few minutes after I began playing.

My two cents: Saragites is awesome and I favor her highly. I think the kingdom-forming plans from the other thread are good and, furthermore, think that if Suberon does not want to play ball then the combined might of Thenerion and Mar would easily be enough to go about annexing it.

We could become the king and Saragites the queen. Her brother could be given rule of the province of Thenerion in-perpetuity, in order to keep her family happy. Martha could be given Mar, for her family to hold in perpetuity. The logic behind these two things is both ensuring that we get the kingship with a minimum of fuss and cementing two powerful family-tied power blocs within the new kingdom. As we expand over the years (probably into the ruins of Iru eventually...) then we will need a strong power base that will always be loyal in the event of unrest. Family ties, both on the king-side and queen-side to two powerful Appanages within the kingdom would do that.

>>19714204

I know what you mean, but since my work does vary wildly in time as well, it's tough for me to come up with a schedule. I'd rather not promise, than promise something I then can't do...

Still, that's what the twitter channel is for, I suppose. I'll just need to give more notice next time. Thanks for the tip.

Goddamn, hope I haven't missed out. Reading.

>>19714535
So are we still playing?

Just a quick question, how would us beginning to form a private army go down? What would be the number of men we could recruit without raising objections?

>>19715218
Don't we already have a plan in the works to recruit some of those independent hillmen?

If we had some backing from a real city-state then we could take more than just one wing under our protection. Perhaps even an entire tribe. And we have connections to the Stone Folk too, I imagine they would be willing to fight for some sort of minor rights (but nothing too bothersome) we could grant them after the war.

>>19715370
Honestly I think the Stonemen are irrelevant. We can't, or at least shouldn't, invest resources beyond enlisting their aid as trackers. It's already been demonstrated that they are not a fighting force, but their skills and knowledge of the countryside will go a long way in helping us attack supply routes if we're facing another kind of foe.

As for the Hillmen, I thought we were going to keep them on our land (on the sly). Speaking of which we should probably release those that are left, maybe saying that we were waiting for things to die down as an excuse for why we took so long.

I was asking about a private army as I was looking for something that wouldn't be seen as out of the ordinary. If we march into the palace (if we stage a coup) with a bunch of Hillmen at our backs the palace will shut their gates and the populace will be outraged and view us a foreign puppet. With a private guard recruited from Mar, especially if we frequently have them train or parade around the palace, it won't be seen as out of the ordinary until it is far too late.

>>19715478
I think it has been said before that any sizable force is, at best, frowned upon. At worst looked at as a rebel in the making and painted with that brush.

I think we'll have to raise whatever army we want in secret. And that's in keeping with our MO so far, too. We've been a string puller and shadow master for a long time now, we should stick with what works. Even a small secret army would be able to take Mar if we got them inside the walls, armed and in formation, before anyone knew they were there.

>>19715478
Of course we should consult Katseas and Daneg, as well as this new guy I supposes, on how to go about recruiting a loyal and effective private guard. My problem with our current position is that we really lack muscle.

I'm just spit-balling here so criticize my plan however you like.
1) Wrap up our pledge to support Gerharo in destroying the merchant and in doing so secure the loyalties of the potential officers and recruiters of our private guard.
2) Have them discreetly recruit talented and loyal soldiers to our cause.
3) Get on-side with chief army officers. Not the person who is in actual control of the army (as they are probably happy with the status quo) but some likely officers who are feeling ambitious. We should deal with Tinaga here as he is probably popular with the armed forces.
4) When the time comes, as a possible method of seizing power, have the loyal officers of our army cull any troublemakers in their ranks and secure the city. Meanwhile we storm the palace with our private guard and apprehend our family and opponents. At this point we can throw any bullcrap allegations we like about our reasons for seizing power.

I'm not saying this secures us a victory, but it gives us a very decent option, as the loyalty ofthe army is key here. We need to work on that.

>>19715519

I agree, but we can't do so with foreign Hillmen. That will not do us any favors at all. I'd say we need maybe 20 men, talented warriors all. We can probably hide them, secure a place in the city (aside from our new mansion). Have a few visibly escorting us around the palace but pretend that this is the entire extent of their numbers.

Also we need to get our hands on more girls like Orchid, the more the better. No one is going to see the attractive-attendant-ninja card coming.

Guys?

Bumping in hope of some love.

>>19715519
>We've been a string puller and shadow master for a long time now
That's a laugh. We have ambitions to be a string puller, but at the moment we're just bumbling around grasping at whatever scraps come our way. We not only lack significant strings, we don't even have a good enough network of advisers and spies to know what would be the most advantageous ones to pull even if we did. We can handle most situations well when we are present in person, but we lack real influence- and it's influence, not personal social skill, which is the defining trait of a "shadow master".

Don't make the mistake of confusing our dreams with our reality. It'll only end badly.

>>19714204
I don't necessarily think that the kingdom-forming plans in the other thread are bad, but I do think that they're getting so far ahead of ourselves that it isn't even funny. We don't have the power base required to even begin attempting something like that.

>>19714203
If we accept this guy into our service, then we are effectively aligning ourselves with Meri because he can feed her intelligence on what we're doing once he gets into our inner circle. We need to pull back and carefully consider what we're doing before accepting such an extraordinary gift. I would very much like to meet with our gate-guests in private and lay out what each of the girls has effectively proposed to us so that they can assist in identifying problems and dangers- because there are serious dangers down both these paths.

>>19715710
>>19715649
That seems shaky to me.
But first, who's gerharo ? I can't find him on the wiki.

>>19716091
I think it's good that we've got ambition. You're half-right on our powerbase. We really REALLY need to build it up, but our current lack of it is what has brought these very intruiging offers to us.

What do you propose we do?

>>19716124

It's only shaky because at the moment we have absolutely nothing to work with in terms of influence.

Gerharo, I believe, is the guy who wanted to kill the serial killer merchant and we promised to help. We had some plan to marry him off to a whore, but that was identified as pretty retarded. In return we would gain Gerharo, Katseas and someone else's undying loyalty.

>>19715649
My route to getting some muscle would be through the city guard rather than the army. Less blatantly martial, but with far more applicability to plans other than "launch a coup". For instance, the "own a city sector" plan is essentially an economic one with large potential dividends, but necessitates getting something like 5% of the city guard working for us, at least indirectly. Expand our influence in that direction, and we can have the guard's officers cherry-pick the best men to enter our personal service while setting ourselves up to seize the city with minimal fuss should the situation call for it.

This is particularly viable because at least some of the guard already think quite well of us, since we've been active in attempting to keep tensions from boiling over and have repeatedly personally acted to prevent riots from breaking out in the city.

>>19716190
For one thing, I want to find out how long these ladies are going to be in the city. We don't have to give either of them an answer right away if they're going to be hanging out with us all summer; on the other hand, if they're dropping by for the lock-cutting ceremony and then getting gone a few days later we're on a much tighter timetable.

If we have a decent amount of time, then we can use that time to gather information on the viability of their plans, knowledgeable gate-guests who can stop us from doing something really stupid, and personal forces to make our eventual choice more effective.

>>19716246
I don't think anyone expects us to get engaged with one of them right at the end of their stay. I suppose it'll take at least a few months.

They are not the only candidates, too.

>>19716246
Good idea with the guard. That's exactly what we need. I do think we should also get the army onside, because if/when we do try to pull this off we are really going to need them. Especially if Iru is distracted by Kaso aggressiveness.

I think they're only staying for the ceremony. Maybe we could convince them to stay longer? Or at least beg for time to build up a more powerful position.

>>19716284
This brings up a fairly important point- we don't actually know much of anything about the usual courtship process in this setting, aside from that apparently men only visit with single women between two specific holidays. If all these ladies are going to be proposing that we shack up and conquer countries together, then we really need to have a good sense of the timetables and social steps involved. If we need our father's blessing to marry someone in order to retain our powerbase, for example, then we need to consider that as a factor when making our moves.

Also, I have no idea if either of our older brothers are married. If not, why not? And are they courting anyone in particular? Important considerations here, because if we spurn either of these foreign ladies there are decent odds that they'll shoot for their second choice amongst our father's sons. I suspect that we made first choice most because of our reputation for favoring foreigners, which would make us that much more likely to be successfully roped into their plan- anyone else in our family would be more likely to refuse their advances in favor of focusing on domestic matters.

>>19716232
Found him. Geharo.
He's a swordsman who wants us to destroy a merchant, right, but that merchant was supported by an Earl.
I'm not against killing that guy, though we'll have to be careful, but I don't see a lot of benefit in getting Geharo to serve us. He's just a swordsman, right ? Nice to have, but won't make a difference in many situations.

>>19715710
>>19715649
The problems I see with that :

20 soldiers are not enough for a putsch. I don't think they'll be enough just to detain all our family and opponents from the palace. There's got to be more guards than that, and probably talented ones around our father and older brother. There's got to be more people to detain than that.

The officers of the army won't necessarily be able to move their troops to our need. We don't know anything about the morale of the rank and file. Are they locals or strangers ? are they blindly following their direct officers, or the will of the King, or whoever offers them the nicest reward ?
And that's assuming the officers are even willing to follow a third son betraying his family. We're sure that won't endear us to the troops, but maybe the officers do have some honor too. If they have ambition, they could also betray the betrayer - low risk, high reward.

Speaking of, there is a decided tone shift as the hour grows later. I somehow think we would have answered Sara's question about what we want to do with power a bit differently. I personally would have said the ultimate use for power is to impose your will on the world, to bring your visions to reality.

>>19716246
>>19715649
Also, we'd need to know where the soldiers are located. Taking the palace is one thing, taking Mar in its entirety is something else.

>>19716523
Katseas and others were also in on that, so I think we should finish this, but not at the cost of other projects. How hard can it be to alienate a merchant when we make his history well known (discreetly though).

I don't really have any idea of the exact number of men we'd need. But we do need. And, as a fellow anon pointed out, we need them to be largely hidden until the time is right. And getting to the guard on our side, rather than the army, is essential for taking the city. The army is there to deal with the inevitable backlash.

You're entirely right with regards to betraying our family. We might be somewhat popular, but no one is going to like us if we turn against our own blood if we're in the wrong. We might very have to wait out our father, which gives us plenty of time to set up our influence and build a powerbase. That way it's less "We kill our entire family like the typical villian" and more "We deserved to be appointed by Iru when our father died, Iru has no interest in the well-being of Mar." By that point our brothers should have been dealt with one way or another.

>>19716540
I prefer the anwer that was given. More realist. Unless we find a way to become immortal or something, reality limits our power considerably, and we shouldn't lie to ourself about it.

By the way, my own vision and will is to make the world a better place, so that we can enjoy exerting our power and enjoy the results too. Wars, civil or conventional, are not the best way to accomplish it.
A revolutionary one, maybe. But we'd need a whole revolutionary movement.

>>19716730
>"We deserved to be appointed by Iru when our father died, Iru has no interest in the well-being of Mar."
Yeah, that could work. It's not the tradition, but if we're something of a folk hero, and manage to get two or three different classes of people to petition the king to appoint us...
And for our father, old-fashioned poisoning could do, as soon as we're ready. I'd want to enjoy the power as a young man.

But regarding the guard, I think it would be harder to enlist it for a coup in our favor than the army. The influence of the various factions of the city over it is likely to be stronger than that of the king over the army.

>>19716730
I think that regardless of the path we take to power, we should care about and make provisions for our family. No, we might not particularly LIKE them, but they are our blood. Giving them small estates and little -- but some -- power would be better than they deserve if they oppose us, but something we would give them anyway out of obligation. And the rewards could be quite immense if they support us.

As for the girls, I personally like Sara more. I think her aspirations are higher, as are her starting power and connections. That said, she also might be less prepared than Meri, or rather have her objectives less planned out so far. That's acceptable, though. Meri has has years of impending disaster hanging over her so it would only be natural to take decisive action to secure some form of power, but that will have also focused her. Her plans are to take Subaran, but they are likely all focused towards that end by pure necessity. Sara almost assuredly has more far-reaching power and more resources... power that can be brought to bear in many, varied tasks.

Also, I get the feeling Sara has not revealed her full hand yet. She seems smart, ambitious, well-backed, and most surprisingly: loyal. Which Meri is not, clearly... something to bear in mind. Sara is looking to take over other territory and has great regard for her brother and family, Meri is looking to depose her family and doesn't bother to include her brothers in her planning at all. Bear in mind that we are looking for a loyal wife to plot with, rather than bedding the most cunning snake we can find only to feel the poison bite later on ourselves. Plus, her motivations for attaining power are something I am very sympathetic to, and I just like the elegant, graceful, manipulator queen archetype better. Sue me.

Meri has excellent good points as well, mind you. She is clearly driven and has been planning this for a while. She obviously has a spy network up and running as of this moment. But I also see a great deal of false posturing and desperation. If her plans are so excellent why is she doing everything but throwing us in bed and taking us by force?

As an aside, I was getting the feeling last thread that Xing was a bit taken aback by everyone loving Sara and has been trying hard to "buff up" Mari and shift focus off of Sara so as to face us with a dilemma.

>>19716917

Well if we play this right it won't even be a coup. We'll simply succeed our father and, if required, declare independence from Iru. Hell, Iru might even appoint us as the successor anyway when the time comes. We should make our worthiness of succeeding him so obvious that, if Iru doesn't appoint us, there would be public outrage to capitalise on.

As for now, we should simply work our way towards being the second most powerful man in Mar. Then, once our position is secure, we can simply wait out our father or arrange a terribly tragic accident or somesuch when we are well and truly ready. Up until then we can build up our power and influence without undue risk, it's only when we oppose Iru that things get dangerous.

>>19717123

It's not like we have to choose now. I'd rather wait a while, build up our own homebase, before looking at prospects (even attractive prospects) overseas. I vote we try to conciliate the two, as whatever choice we make we don't want Theniron and Subaran going to war. Not yet anyway.

>>19717123
I think we're being foolishly dazzled here. Both of these women basically dropped into our life with shining smiles and offered to conquer countries with us; the hell is that? They've known us less than two days, and they're already trying to bring us in on their master plans?

No way are their spy reports that good- for that matter, how do they even HAVE recent spy reports when we've been active in politics for a few measly weeks and it takes a fair bit of time to ride to their countries? Spying at this level of technology should be giving them information weeks or months out of date unless they basically have someone really high in the court giving them full reports directly- and even then, we're looking at a situation where they identified, assessed, and chose to move on us in a matter of a few weeks. That means that whatever else may be going on, we are simply not that important a part of what they are trying to do; we're an add-on and quite possibly a pasty being foolishly lured into something over our head and which we don't actually want.

We need to establish an independent power base, and badly, before we get in any deeper with either of these women. Otherwise we will end as a sell-out and a tool used in a plot that we neither control nor fully understand.

>>19717101
>brothers

Personally, I don't like Tinaga at all. And he is way too prideful to let something like us seizing power slide by. He wouldn't only be angry, he'd be angry enough to actively oppose us and try to kill us. Besides, he's only our half-brother.

It's Imian that I think we should look out for.

You know, we don't need Meri. If we give her and her plot up to the Duke of Suburan, we could earn his friendship and gratitude.

>>19717223
Well, the problem with that is marriage itself. At 18 a girl often has been married long enough to have a child or two, given the time period. We don't have time to just fiddle-faddle around. Some time this courting season we will likely want to pick out our bride and marry, at least if we plan to secure a good one.

Also, Meri doesn't appear to have any plans for going to war with Thenrion, hers seem internally focused. The only one we would have to be concerned about is Sara. If we marry her it's a moot point, because we can wait or hurry as we like since we would be working for a common goal. If we decide on Meri then we would have to take other steps.

>>19717245
Meri is the one with the frightening spy network. And she sounds desperate more than anything else.

Howe, she could be pulling the wool over our eyes. But what would she stand to gain?

>>19717295
I vote we wait another year before marrying. Marrying now would be moving way to quickly in my opinion, since we lack a powerbase.

>>19717123
>Bear in mind that we are looking for a loyal wife to plot with
Loyal to whom ? Meri would only have us and herself. Sara is doing it for her family and her ego.

>>19717245
That's another reason I favor Saragites. Meri's plans seem immediate, direct, developed, and she has apparently gained information on us exactly as you said. It's uncanny and makes me more than a little wary, especially with how hard she is pushing this.

Sara, on the other hand, has given a much more vague future plan, one which we would -- by our very nature and status -- likely be inclined to support. No special knowledge or spying needed there, just the inherent fact of our birth and the reputation we are somewhat ambitious and not stupid. And most of all, it's not like we were being tacked on as an afterthought. Plans of the scale Sara is looking at will take at least a year or two to set into motion... unlike Meri's plots, which are in the final ramp up stage if she is actively recruiting people who can lend her military support, and further supported by her father being about to croak soon.

The thing I am the most concerned with is how she found out we were dealing with the hillmen tribes. HOW? Everyone who knows about that is currently in Mar... except for Baseg, and I just can't see him as a spy.

>>19717263
I really don't think that the Duke of Subaran will take her rebellion that seriously- in no small part because, unless she manages to actually secure outside help, it's simply not that serious. She doesn't have the forces or influence to successfully manage a rebellion or coup of significance unless she can net a truly excellent alliance with her marriage.

And he sounds like a weak and indolent ruler- at least, as Meri paints him. Our advisers can give us their own impressions of him, which might differ, but the worth of his gratitude could be anywhere from zero to priceless.


And speaking of families, I really don't want to plot against our father. Just being clear here: Whatever else Adrian is, and however things end up with his brothers, he should NOT be killing or launching a coup against his father. When our father dies- which will not be by our hand nor machinations- then all bets are off in our bid for power, but until that happens we should not be launching bids to take over Mar.

>>19717263
But if we give the Duke's head to her, we could earny his duchy.

>>19717333
Chinese culture tends to be a little different. When a woman marries she becomes part of her husband's family.

Obviously this hardly a complete severance, but even without that particular cultural quirk she will be our wife and we will be her husband, a family tie if ever there was one. Children make that even more assured.

As long as we don't plan to murder her father and brothers in their beds or take away their country and leave them paupers, what reason would she possibly have to be anything but loyal? Excepting the usual; neglect, abuse, and so on. But I assume we plan to make whatever marriage we have one of affection as well as convenience, if at all possible.

>>19717319
>Marrying now would be moving way to quickly in my opinion, since we lack a powerbase.

Marriage is one of the most tried and true methods of building a power base, actually. Pooling resources, and such.

>>19717343
>Sara, on the other hand, has given a much more vague future plan, one which we would -- by our very nature and status -- likely be inclined to support.
She wanted us to give Mar's support to Theniron over Subaran, in peace and then in war. Why would we be inclined to support this ? It's not our nature to push for an unproductive conflict.

>>19717410
The whole point is that it would, in fact, be productive and secure us a future for after our father died. It doesn't take an eagle-eyed spy to see why that might be appealing to a Third Earl whose father's health has not been the best as of late.

>>19717245
>Both of these women basically dropped into our life with shining smiles and offered to conquer countries with us; the hell is that?

I just realized it, but I think
>>19717441
just answered that.

Our father's health has been worse and worse lately, and did you see him after that hunt? I think people know a change is in the wind for Mar, and both of the duchies are trying to secure some power at the Prince's throne. That could easily be what Gesadag is trying for too....

>>19717441
Sara doesn't want to marry us specifically, so she can give us a place to stay after our father's death. She wants to marry someone who can give her country the support of Mar.
I don't think that she'll marry us if we can't maintain our power in Mar. And if we can, then we don't need to marry her to secure our future. Marrying Meri and trying to get her duchy for ourself is more interesting if we're in that situation.

>>19717386
Maybe she will be loyal to us. As long as we don't disagree with the rest of her family...

It's too much of a burden for me. We have enough family problems as is. I don't want to watch her father and brothers take decisions, and just act as an advisor or something. I'm pretty sure I would not approve with the way they rule anyway - seeing how they're itching to go to war with Subaran.

>>19717584
So you say, as we merrily make plans to take over multiple countries ourselves.

Fact is, anyone of quality we marry is going to have a family. That's just all there is to it. And honestly, what the fuck? A married woman doesn't take sides against her husband, in ancient times OR now, without real reasons to do so. Disagreeing with her parents is, I think you might find, a SOMEWHAT common occurrence throughout history, and the wife, though mediation is obviously the first step, usually takes her husband's side if things become truly unresolvable.

As long as we don't conspire to murder her entire nuclear family I imagine she would be as loyal as anyone could ever hope for.

>>19717520
More exactly, she wants to marry someone who can either give her or work with her to build the life she dreams of, a life of power. Her ambitions have clearly gone beyond just her family's duchy.

Is anyone here currently?

>>19719861
Yes. I am here, others will probably show up soon enough.

>>19717685

but that means meri will be even more loyal to us, then. sara is close to her family, meri is not. and sara is close to an aggressive, ambitions family too.

>>19719947
Yeah, but Meri is asking us to help her lead a coup, she is likely to be a bit too aggressive with it and we'll get dragged in.

Also her being not close to her family has disadvantages as well, if we marry her all we get is what she scrounges up. If we marry Saragites this opens the gates to getting the support of her entire family, her competent ambitious family I will note, and just from the swordfight I'm pretty sure her brother already likes us.

Merinites is from a branch of the Subaran Duchy that is floundering, there is a lot that needs to be done to fix it and there's no guarantee it'll work out well for us. Saragites is the much safer option and while she's not specifically planning any coups, she's aiming for more than just a single Duchy and she has a much more solid foundation than Meri.

As for Arahunir, he seems competent and useful, but we can trust him about as far as we can throw a castle wall. He's almost certainly going to report back everything to Meri and it is a serious mark of our favor to take him.

We should be polite, talk to him, learn more about him and his character, and say that we'll consider her offer.

>>19719995

> So, just ask Arahunir some things and then leave?

You sit down and talk to Arahunir, while Meri goes off to tend to the fishing rods. 'I have heard, sir, a lot about your intelligence and cunning,' Arahunir says, smiling.

'Sadly I cannot say the same about you...' you ask him some questions, and it seems like he really has a good grasp of practically every school of philosophy among the Imperials. When you ask more, he appears to favour Legalism, though he disapproves of their suppressing cities in favour of an agrarian economy.

'It seems foolish that cities are ignored, when they are the avenues of trade and the places where laws can be best enforced. While the density of populations may lead to chaos, that is only because of poor designs, intentions and regulations, and a lack of will in enforcement.'

'Ooh I got something!' You scramble to Meri's side as she holds the bamboo rod, and hold it as well; together you manage to haul up a silver carp nearly two feet in length, gasping as it flops. 'Wow,' Meri says as Arahunir guts the fish cleanly with a dagger. He seems very competent with that tool...

> What do/say? You've got 5 or 6 sizeable fish already.

>>19720060
You have quite a hand with a knife Arahunir. I am forced to wonder what else you are proficient in.

Agree with Arahunir on how cities are a source of great potential, potential this is often wasted due to poor management and an unwillingness to change and improve.

>>19720110

Arahunir seems glad that you agree. He is not bound to say much unless you are more specific in asking him something - it's the ritual between a servant and a master - so he simply agrees.

As for the knife, he simply smiles and puts it down. 'I have lived in the hills for several years, sir. It would not do if I fumbled my blades.'

'Why did you live in the hills?'

'Well...' he glances at Meri. 'Sometimes the winds are not favourable, and the magpie hides in its hollows.'

'So. Are we having any dinner or function today?' Meri says, gesturing to the fish. 'If so, we could have these. Unless you don't like fish...'

> What do/say? It's about three hours past noon now, halfway to dinnertime. You may have to decide soon what you want to do for dinner, if you're organising anything in particular.

>>19720200
Making a meal of freshly caught fish sounds like a wonderful idea, we certainly caught enough.

>>19720200
Since we have these fish we may as well, fish you catch yourself has a taste all of its own.

As for dinner, we should probably have a small affair with Saragites, her brother, and Merenites. If we had dinner with Saragites alone with these fish it'd be a bit too much of a snub at Merenites and it'd be too much of a mark of interest.

We should probably head back soon with the fish, have people get the dinner set up and spend some time with Saragites or Gurunir.

>>19720247
>>19720248

You look at the fish; you have to admit, braised in soy sauce and vinegar or baked with salt, they could be wonderfully delicious. You say as much, and Meri grins. It's almost strange, how the same grinning fishing girl now was an intense plotter an hour ago.

'Well, if that's the case, then we had better go back to our respective quarters and get ready.'

'I am going to invite Sara and her brother to the dinner as well,' you say, evenly. 'It would not do to snub them.'

Meri glances at Arahunir, and then nods. 'Well, you are the host and it is your right. Shall we move off, then?'

Arahunir rides a horse to escort the two of you in the carriage, and you hear Meri hum a little tune as she sits opposite you, looking out the window. It's an interesting Vasawa song that you know about as well - a song of longing, and of waiting at the window for something without knowing if it - or he, or she - will come. Hmm.

You look out yourself; House Daudu's manor is in the distance, coming closer.

> Do/say anything?

>>19720287

Hum another longing tune that we know of, and ask if she's got a musical instrument.

When we get back, talk to gurunir and ask after his arm. Then we go talk to our gate guests.

>>19720287
Interesting song choice, it seems rather relevant.

Singing along with this one would be sending the message that we're going to join up with her which I'm against, she's nice, and I'm interested in Arahunir and her spy network I don't think we should explicitly back her right now.

Make some light conversation, tell her that we were quite impressed by Arahunir.

>>19720342
>>19720381

You don't join her in her tune, but hum another one of your own, from the Imperial Anthologies - a tune about being in the presence of a beautiful woman, and feeling cheered, even despite adversity. Meri gets the message and smiles.

'I must say... Arahunir is quite an impressive person.'

'He is, is he not? He is also well known among the people of Subaran. Which I surmise means he's probably well known among the people of Margade, or at least some of them...'

'I should think so, definitely. I have heard mention of him from my gate-guests.'

'Margade is always hampered by not having talented men to run its affairs,' Meri says, sitting back. 'In that respect, it is not unlike Subaran. Of course, with effort, such disadvantages can be overcome... I'm sure you will be the person to do such a thing, won't you?'

> What answer?

At length you return her to her apartments, and then ask to detour round to Gurunir. He is sitting alone in his room, cradling his wounded arm while looking out the balcony, when you enter.

'Adrian.' He stands and nods. 'Have a seat, go on.'

You sit down and look at him. There is certainly a resemblance between him and his sister - a certain high-spiritedness, almost haughtiness, borne of years of advantage and confidence. He sits down, and thanks you as you pour wine for him.

'So. Have you come to look at my wound?' He smiles. 'I'll survive it. It will probably leave a nice scar, too - which is good.'

> What do/say?

>>19720437
Tell her 'of course!' with a cocky grin.

With Gurunir, ask him if that arm would keep him from hunting. With spears.

>>19720437
I certainly hope that is how I am remembered, but there is much to do and I won't be able to accomplish it alone.


When you tell people about how you got the scar could you try to make me sound more skilled with a blade than I truly am? They don't need to know it was a combination of luck with perhaps some trickery.

Saragites worried quite a bit about you, does she often fuss over any wounds you acquire?

>>19720473
> When you tell people about how you got the scar could you try to make me sound more skilled with a blade than I truly am? They don't need to know it was a combination of luck with perhaps some trickery.

I don't think saying this is a good idea. We don't want to look like a Milquetoast. Let the scar stand for what it is, a lucky blow in a fight of equals. Asking him to lie or exaggerate about how he got it would make us look weak.

>>19720473
>>19720491

You tell Meri you'll of course do it, if you can. She nods, suddenly becoming a little sombre. Perhaps she's been reminded of what she's doing.

'I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure you can.'

As for Gurunir, you ask if it will stop him hunting with spears. 'Hardly,' he says. 'It's a flesh wound.'

'I hope you'll tell people it was a flesh wound well-dealt,' you say, smiling. But Gurunir looks at you steadily.

'I'd say any wound is well dealt. If you'd bit my arm to keep me from running you through, that would also have been well dealt. With swords in hand, we are hounds and not men.'

That's... quite a thing to say. 'So. Does Sara always fawn over you like she did this morning?'

'Sara... well. We are close, I guess that's what it is. She does care a lot for me.' He says it matter-of-factly, as if the affection was only to be expected. And for him it probably is. He's a strikingly handsome man, actually, in a different way from you - more martial, more... manly. 'Would you rather I have wounded you, so you might see her fawn over you as well?'

> What do/say?

>>19720535
If it won't keep you from the hunt, perhaps we should make time for one? Boars, or perhaps tigers.

Your sister's affection will not be so easily won I think. At least I hope not. Where is the fun in the boar that puts itself on your spear?

She seems a remarkable woman however.

Now tell me Gurunir, what do you make of all these Iru customs? Marriage customs, inheritance laws. You strike me as rather forth right.

>>19720535
I like this guy.

As much as I may have enjoyed being fawned over I would have to weigh it against being stabbed, and I doubt that a mere flesh wound would suffice to garner her attention.

So, hunting, as you can not be kept from it with such a wound perhaps we ought to organize one.

>>19720579
>Where is the fun in the boar that puts itself on your spear?
Unfortunate implication is unfortunate. Do not say this.

>>19720535
As much as I would enjoy it, I don't think it would be worth you running me through.

>>19720661
>>19720595
>>19720579

> Fucking internet ate my post. Sorry about this. Retyping.

>>19720661
> Unfortunate implication is unfortunate. Do not say this.

I dunno, he might find it amusing. He seems pretty bro, and military guys are always saying shit like that to each other.

>>19720680

Yeah, I think he would find it hilarious. If we weren't talking about his sister.

>>19720680
I agree except for one thing, this is his dear sister we're talking about. Throwing hunting related innuendo about that compares her to a boar seems iffy.

>>19720687
I still think he wouldn't mind. They are trying to arrange a marriage after all, and it could be taken as an expression of interest.

we gotta speak his language, and that language isn't a courtly one.

>>19720661
>>19720595
>>19720579

'You would not risk a wound, for the attention of my sister?' Gurunir gives you a hard stare, before waving it off. 'And as for marriage ceremonies, well, what can I say? You have your quirks, and so do we. I'm not sure Imperials look kindly to the groom slitting a cockerel's throat and dabbing its blood on his bride's cheeks.'

The two of you laugh at that. You do know that bit of the marriage ritual. The groom then kisses the blood away, which somewhat compensates you suppose.

'I haven't heard many good things about the royal hunting park near Raumar. But maybe the Tallow Wood would be a better spot to hunt.'

Well, well. That's the Prince's personal ground, not to mention Tinaga manages a large portion of it. You aren't too sure about that...

> What do/say?

>>19720701

I would love to follow you around in social situations, just to see what happens.

Being forward is one thing. Comparing his sister to a wild pig is something else.

>>19720716

> Let's refrain from personal sniping here, it's just a game.

In any case, point is taken. You have seen how close he also feels to his sister, and have decided not to mention the boar thing. Which, mind you, is a good call.

>>19720705
Can I get a run down on the areas we are allowed to hunt?

Because I was thinking of something more immediate, such as the surrounding forests.

>>19720705
Are there any other good hunting spots around home?

How likely are we to be able to procure usage of it from our Father and Tinaga? If we did would we probably be obligated to hunt along with Tinaga and/or Father?

>>19720705

Our father would have no real reason to oppose this. And neither does Tinaga come to think of it, not that we'd particularily care about him.

I say agree, but beg time to organise the thing as we'll be busy. Saragites is still looking the more attractive prospect, so broing it up with her favoured brother is essential. That and he has a fair bit to offer us himself.

>>19720743
>>19720738
>>19720731

The forests around this area can indeed be hunted, though you're not sure how well-stocked they are. Daudu doesn't strike you as a house that's particularly interested in hunting.

... or, like House Ahun, you might end up hunting people. You're pretty sure Gurunir would not object.

For permission to hunt in the Tallow Wood you'll have to ask your dad. He's not likely to disagree, though - he's probably glad you're into hunting as well!

As you are considering this, Gurunir sits back a little, adopting a more relaxed pose. 'So, Adrian. Tell me. What do you think about Saragites? I've just heard that you wouldn't bleed for her, which is not particularly impressive. But what do you think? We've come quite a ways to here for a ceremony, after all.'

> What do/say?

>>19720766
Mirror his more relaxed tone.
"I said I wouldn't let you stab me in the gut to get her to pay attention to me. I didn't say I wouldn't be willing to bleed for her...or kill. I'm not just boasting, your sister is quite a woman. But I must wonder, why are you so eager to see whether I am impressed, which I most certainly am. But what can I offer you than another cannot or will not?"

If I'm unclear, the message I'm trying to get across is that we are interested but I don't want to make any sort of commitment at all. I want to know more about Gurunrir's position.

>>19720766
I never said I wouldn't bleed for her, I chose to fight you with live steel if you remember, I said that merely bleeding would be insufficient to get her attention.

She is quite obviously incredibly beautiful, her skill with a brush is matched only by her sharp wit and intelligence.

She is quite spirited and prideful but has much to be proud of so one can not fault her for it.

>>19720805
>>19720808

Mix the two, this anon is better at flowery compliments than I am.

>>19720766
She's certainly interesting, as a woman and as a mind. Most womenfolk have little to say. Good for the bed but not much for conversation. But your sister, I doubt I could ever get bored with her around.

In truth she is most likely well worth bleeding for, but am I worth the blood spent? As they say, never commit more than you are willing to lose. They also say to never bid small when there is a big pot up for grabs.

Either way, she is too remarkable to reduce into a a few words.

>>19720766
>>19720808
Also, we may as well hold this conversation is Vasawa Easterner, people like it when you use their native tongue.

>>19720821

Second

>>19720821
I thought we were.

>>19720818
>>19720815
>>19720808
>>19720805

You sing Sara's praises, and say that you wonder if even bleeding might garner her attention. Gurunir simply sits by, listening.

'I'm just wondering, Gurunir. Why are you so eager to know if I'm impressed, which I indeed am?'

'Oh, you mistake my intentions, Adrian!' He laughs. 'I'm not that eager to know. I already know. What you say to me has been said to me by quite a few people. Anyone with eyes and ears and a working head could have said that, and it would be the truth...'

> What do/say? Also, please clarify 'Am I worth the blood spent'... do you mean 'Is she worth the blood spent'? Or... what?

No worries, you already are talking in Vasawa. Indeed, Gurunir knows you speak it and isn't even bothering with talking to you in Imperial.

>>19720837
It was meant to gauge 'his' interest in Adrian as a prospective brother-in-law. Hence the gambling metaphor afterwards. What is the stake/interest in having Adrian married into the family?

As to a response, suggest that while she is remarkable there was more than just -her- to be curious about. Her situation and family are as important as she is, after all. Let's not leave him with the impression she has dazzled us.

>>19720837
I think, just guessing, he meant what would spilling our blood achieve? *shrug*

"I must say I somewhat envy how close the two of you. My siblings...do not seem to share such fraternal ideals. Well, apart from my own younger sister who is a gem and no one could even think of bringing themselves to dislike her.

Quite unlike you and I in that regard. Men like us tend to make enemies all too easily."

>optional add-on if these wouldn't be considered far too bold?
"Tell me something of your enemies, Gurunir.

>>19720848
I love speaking half a dozen languages.

>>19720837
Since that which I have already seen of her is what any man could see, what can you tell me of her that is not so easily discerned?

>>19720882
>Since that which I have already seen of her is what any man could see, what can you tell me of her that is not so easily discerned?

Oooooh, this poster has a way with words. I like it.

>>19720882
>>19720859
>>19720855

'Well, well. I have but eyes and ears,' you say, smiling. 'But I do wonder what there is about her - not to mention her family - that I might be told?'

Gurunir nods. 'Indeed, what might you know or not know? But I will tell you this. You know Sara's beauty, and you know she is the apple of our father's eye. And she has taken after me, and both of us take after the old tree that gave rise to us. If anyone thinks she is just a pretty face and a set of brushes, they are mistaken. And if anyone lays claim to her based on that, they will regret that error.'

'They will, no doubt, they will. And about your house?'

From what Gurunir says, about how the family is peaceful and of one mind, you get the idea that he is truly, very confident about his place in the scheme of things. Then he turns the question back on you. 'Now... what about your family? They say Iru is a large but rotting tree. Now I am tempted, slightly, to revise that opinion.'

You don't think it's good, for now, to talk about his enemies. In fact, you're not sure he thinks he has enemies at all. You tell him about how your family appears to be far more in discord, and he nods.

'Well. That is unfortunate. I would not want to marry my sister into a troubled house,' he says.

You somehow have the feeling that, if you're really decided on going for Sara, you will have to contend with this formidable man before you.

> What do/say?

>>19720953
You haven't heard the expression 'opportunity is born from chaos?'

A bit of discord now can lead to much prosperity later, if one is wise enough to see the opportunity.

>>19720953

Unruly children can be brought back into line. And a troubled house is only troubled so long as there is conflict. Right now, like all brothers, we bicker and have our petty rivalries. I imagine in a normal family we would be as thick as thieves. But when there is such uncertainty, and when the stakes are so high...

>>19720965

'It will have to be a big opportunity, Adrian, to risk the happiness of my sister.'

Well, you can understand that. You wouldn't marry Martha off to anyone else either if you could help it. Unlike you though, it seems as if Gurunir *can* help it.

> Do/say/answer anything more? He seems quite interested in knowing more about your family, and about Iru in general.
> Also, you can't help but wonder if conceding to speak in his language to him so readily is a sign of weakness. The fact that he takes it for granted, too... does it grate with you? You're an earl just like him, after all...

>>19720998
Tell him a bit more about our family, and Iru in general, but nothing sensitive. Perhaps mention our craftsman skills as well, though I doubt he would be interested.

As for language, we are only doing so in private, when we first meet to put him at ease. Further conversations, back at Margarde, will probably be done in Imperial. It *is* our territory after all. Thanks for reminding us though, we can't forget these sorts of things.

>>19720953
Sadly my siblings and I are not as close as you and your sister. While we may have our difficulties with each other we all share in a love of Margade and we do understand the blood that binds us together. We differ on how things ought to be accomplished. We may have our rivalries but I have no doubt that should the need arise we would be as one.

>>19720998
See if he speaks other languages than Imperial and Vasawa, it'd be interesting to end up speaking neither of our native languages.

I would place the happiness of your sister over near anything else, and this is not because the thought of a displeased Saragites is a terrifying one.

Give him a decent overview of our siblings and Iru, be honest but don't focus on their flaws, nothing sensitive or that he couldn't find out on his own.

>>19721024
>>19721017

You manage to dance around the topic of your family quite deftly, talking about how you have many disagreements but blood is still far thicker than water and all that. Gurunir nods and listens, intently. You wonder if he's heard all this before. It wouldn't be particularly surprising.

'Hmm. Well. I'm just wondering if there is any chance of you becoming, you know. A man of some... worth.'

'How do you mean?' That... that was quite the jab.

'Well. I have heard many times, pardon my bluntness, that your father is a drunkard, your oldest brother an effete bookworm, your second brother a murderous man, and your youngest brother blindly religious. If such a family rules an appanage, where can the appanage go but downwards? Meanwhile, in your royal court, a jealous queen fights a fearful crown prince, and the King is virtuous when he's awake and sober... which is not all the time.

'Now that I've said it, then, I guess I should be more blunt.' He sits up, noting your silence. You're... you wouldn't say you're stunned, but... 'Saragites is my sister and I love her above most other things.'

'I assure you, Gurunir, that I will place her happiness above all other things too.'

'You cannot claim to love her more than I do, Adrian. You know that would be a lie, since you've known her for two days. I could say the same about Martha and you would know I am lying. But see, the thing is... this is a common lie. I've heard earls from city-states tell me. I've heard dukes, and their sons, tell us about the glory that is Saragites. Many of them rule their own cities. You, if you're lucky, will get a few poor villages in some valley in your appanage - no place, no title, no power. I want you, Adrian, to tell me. Why should we not simply leave the gifts with you, and return to Theniron right now? You're the only sane one in your family, so I just thought I'd ask you first. What can you give us?'

> What do/say?

>>19721080
"I have plans to be sure. Some set in motion, others to be put forth soon. How much of that is your business, well that depends on the future."

Not sure what to say or how much we should tell him. He might be trying to get a rise out of us to see how we react to being insulted, or he's just being honest.

Maybe ask him about how if the tree is so rotted, how he would feel about old trees being cut down so new ones can grow.

>>19721080
That right there is a bridge too far. He has stepped over the line and we need to put him in his damn place. Narrow our eyes, our voice should take a cold sharp turn.

"You go too far, Gurunir. This is my family you speak of. Whatever our differences, blood is blood. Hold your tongue if you wish to keep it."
>who knows, maybe some backbone will get us some respect in his eyes?

Also, don't speak on the royal family here. Defend our own, as they are linked to us and the Appenage of Mar, but we should pointedly avoid jumping to their defence.

>>19721091
"A kingdom, if -you- are bold enough."

Fuck it. He wants to know our worth, and we may need his lot to help us out. Let's spell out just who we are and what we are going for.

....hopefully he won't fuck us up for it.

>>19721109

We've known this guy for about a day and he just insulted our family (even if it was in a somewhat roundabout way). Regardless of our personal feelings we have to let him know that will not stand. What does that say about us if we let that one slide? If anyone does the besmirching it shall be us, and in due time.

>"I have plans to be sure. Some set in motion, others to be put forth soon. How much of that is your business, well that depends on the future."
This might be good for later, when we've made it damn clear that it's our family he is talking about.

>>19721091
Well I suppose I ought to be blunt as well.

I am probably the single most popular person in Mar if you listen to rumors and songs. I plan on improving the city that controls the trade between Theniron and Iru. I am on good terms with influential men in the city. I am bringing education and learning back to Mar.

I am your best chance at improving relations, those of trade and diplomacy between Theniron and the people who consider you howling barbarians.

I can conduct with almost any kingdom, princedom, duchy or tribe that either of us are likely to notice. I am equally at home in the royal court of Iru as I am in the halls Easterners, the tents of nomads and the homes of any others.

>>19721080
If the whole family were to rule over the appanage, these caricatures would complete and balance one another... But my father is the ruler.

As you surely know, rulership over Mar isn't hereditary. I am deeply convinced that power suits me, and I certainly will have my chances to obtain it. But it won't be mechanical... for me. I understand it can worry you, but if you want the definite answer you'll have to watch me in the coming years.

>>19721126
>>19721109

'I can give you a kingdom, if you are bold enough. I have plans, and I am of undoubted ability, as you well know.' You feel the heat rising within you already.

'Well, I already have a duchy,' he smiles thinly. 'I wouldn't bet too much of it on vague rumours of plots. And plans? What sort of plans?'

'Whether these plans are your business will depend on the future.'

'Then whether my sister is your business will depend on the future too,' he says, calmly. Now, this is too much. You narrow your eyes.

'Gurunir, you are going rather too far. You have come here as an envoy, and you insult my family and ask me such impudent questions. I'd advise you hold your tongue if you wish to keep it.'

You can hear the silence in the room after you say this. For a moment Gurunir looks almost chastened - at the very least, he is a bit surprised. But then he breaks into a smile, and stands up.

'Then I see there is very little value in staying here. I thought a man like you, of discernment and undoubted wit, might have been able to talk more about what he intends to do, and what grand designs he has. As it turns out you are nothing but a poser, and my sister deals with those thrice a month, even outside of your social seasons. Now, if you will excuse me - I shall prepare for our trip back to Theniron.'

He gives you a smart Imperial salute.

> What do/say? Please remember that you are here on a diplomatic mission. Letting him just fuck off with an esteemed guest is likely to be considered a disastrous failure.

>>19721139
Seceding from Iru and making a kingdom of Mar and Theniron ? We aren't going for that.

I don't like this at all. From what I can see he's presented a united front, while we've just admitted our family is in the shitter and we have little to offer.

I say we pull back a little here. We *really* need to secure our position in the city way more before we can come to the negotiating table in situations like this, otherwise we're just going to end up in someones pocket.

>>19721143

The thing is, you figure he already knows all of this. He definitely has heard the songs and all that.

... he's probably trying to get a rise out of you, or to test if you're a weakling. You just hope your response satisfies him.

Then again, the fuck are you satisfying him for? He's a guest in your appanage, gods-damn it!

>>19721126
Seconding this, but also give him some hints that there is more to us than meets the eye and that our star is very much on the rise.

>>19721165
"You will only be happy when your sister is in your bed, a custom we don't share in Iru. I trust your father will be happy to hear about this slight to the king he owes fealty, and the stories of you whoring your sister to every man of position 'thrice a month'. I misjudged you Theniron, I thought you had a brain to go with that brawn.

Leave if you want, but you leave with nothing and my dogs will be close behind you. You've made an enemy you won't live to regret. It won't be today, but you will reap this foolish game."

>>19721165
Switch to Imperial.

Gurunir, sit back down.

Do you want to hear details of my plans, or do you want to leave wondering for a long while if you should have stayed and listened? I will be able to do them without you and I'm sure Subaran and Merinites would love to be involved.

>>19721202

Mate, are you insane? Do you want to start another war? We are not saying any of that.

Say, instead, that he is of course free to go if he wishes, but what sort of envoy would it be who leaves the kingdom at its entrance? Surely that is a failure of his own duty as an envoy.

>>19721218
He is being a prick, and inviting a war by being a prick to the Imperial envoy. If he's bluffing, we've called him on it. If not, he can go fuck himself.

Maybe drop the bit about his sister.

>>19721202

I'm not going to comment much on the content of the suggestion, but just to clarify - he doesn't owe your king any fealty. Heck, since he's not even Imperial, he doesn't even owe the Son of the Heavens any fealty...

>>19721202
Xing, whatever you do, don't do this!

>>19721168
I will admit it is looking less and less likely.

>>19721165
Uh-oh. Well we certainly can't beg him to stay. Are threats the way to go? Switch to Imperial.

"Wasted opportunities are the most dreadful things/ You would so quickly alienate a potential ally, no, the entirety of Mar? Where else would we look to but Subaran then? Don't cast away a potential ally. Especially not when I was just warming up to you."

>>19721165
Such vain arrogance.
Go, if you want to. Go back into the arms of your father, explain to him that you're the only worthwhile noble in the neighboring lands, and that he only needs you by his side to ensure the prosperity of his land and the realization of his ambitions.

>>19721216
Do this.

>>19721202
Do not do this.

Personally I think this is a bluff. We should call him on it. He is an idiot is he's going to estrange the whole of Theniron from Mar over something like this, especially when Subaran will leap at the opportunity.

>>19721236
Huh, I thought they did. Must have misread the article on the wiki.

Still, you get the gist of it. He's being needlessly cunt-ish to a host of all things. If he thinks we are going to be insulted freely he can get fucked. At the very least we should confiscate everything of theirs and have them walk back to Theniron.

>>19721218
>>19721239
>>19721216

To be honest, even you have to admire how calm you are. (Yes, yes, let's feed that ego a little.)

You stand up and gesture to receive the salute, and then escort Gurunir to the door, before speaking. 'It is said by the sages that a man is a good official if, as an envoy to the four corners of the world, he does not bring shame to his ruler's good name. I just wonder, Gurunir, if you've read that little chapter before.'

That has an effect on Gurunir; he pauses, and then glances at you. You can tell you've called his little bluff - which he of course wants you to do. 'Well, Adrian. I don't take part in negotiations where the other side has nothing to offer. You don't bargain with a fishmonger who hasn't any fish.'

'No, no you don't, not if you're certain he will not have any fish. But why burn bridges? You're not the only party in this negotiation. Another customer, I think, awaits... and is somewhat more ready to bargain without unseemly remarks.'

Gurunir smiles. 'Well, say what you want to, then,' he says.

> What do/say? Nice save.

>>19721268
>>19721249

I think the point is that he thinks he actually can alienate us. Theniron is ambitious, aggressive, and well-armed. There's no guarantee we can beat them hands down if it came to the battlefield.

Actually, that's a worrying thought. If we get with Sara, we tie ourselves to someone like this. He clearly doesn't think of us as his equal, even. We'll have a hard and possibly humiliating time.

>>19721249
You come to me, demanding that I offer your family everything I can get... for the hand of your sister ? Alliances do not work this way. You're not selling your sister, or at least I'm not buying her. My power, if ever, should be exchanged with your family's, and now you lose yourself in your provocations when I don't expand on what I can do for you - and you never told me what you can do for me.

Okay fellas we need to come to a concensus here. He's pushing us hard to make a decision, but we can't let ourselves be bullied.

Xingzhe, can you expand on what we know about the issues between Subaran and Theniron? How likely is it they would be open to reconciliation?

>>19721274
"Time, Gurunir. Time is what I want."

^ That's my vote anyway.

>>19721274
"I like you despite myself Gurunir, and admire much of the land you come from.

Mar is mine, whether the rest of the world knows it or not. I will be Lord of Mar, or possibly Duke or even King if all goes to plan. The people love me as they do none of my family members, and they loathe an outsider. Should I stamp my feet, the territory will rise up for me. You might think this is posturing, I don't blame you.

My father is not well and my king is a fool. A well loved son of the land could take it from them easily, a task made easier with the right men beside him. Too long has Mar been kept back by the traditions and short-sighted policies of the royalty. It has a potential long squandered.

I will not have it tomorrow. I am not so blinded by ambition. But it will be mine, this is a fact. The Duke of Mar would be a good friend to have.

And would you not want your sister to be a Duchess, or possibly a Queen?"

>>19721325
>>19721274
He wants fish ? Just invite him to share the fish Meri and her servant caught.

We shouldn't let ourself be bullied, that's right. So let's stop the conversation for now.

>>19721309

Honestly I can't if he's being protective of his sister or if he really is adept at this political maneuvering. His sister said he had a sharp wit but geez...

Anyway, we do know something of value now. We know that Gurunir has no intention to marry Sagarites to any of our brothers, which is very handy to know.

>>19721325
If he won't budge, fuck it we should just throw in. If he will give us a reprieve, tell him as much as is needed to keep him interested, without spilling the whole game.

>>19721325

Fair enough a request. Well, Subaran and Theniron have been at each other's throats for a long time - we're talking ever since Theniron was created, really. This is because the city which used to rule over Theniron was a staunch ally of Subaran, so from birth the two have been at it.

Nonetheless, the two states have had rapports before, mostly when they decided they have a bigger common enemy. About ten years ago, that common enemy was a large invasion of people from the far east and south which threatened to overrun the Easterners but were stopped.

And of course, twenty five years ago, that common enemy was YOU! Or at least your father's predecessor as Prince of Mar. As far as you know, the two states' primary arenas of competition are in trade, as well as in culture (which is why they both produce so many talented people, it's amazing) and also in jockeying for influence among the big patchwork of cities and towns of the Vasawa tribes. Not to mention the more mobile tribes of herdsmen and hunters.

(To summarise it in three pithy words, Athens and Sparta. Basically. With Sparta being Theniron, though Theniron doesn't have the nightmarish army.)

>>19721345
>or possibly Duke or even King if all goes to plan.
I don't think it's wise to brag about betraying our king to a stranger, when we're not even sure that it is something that carries a small chance of succes. We don't even agree that it is something we want.

>>19721356
>intense political scheming
>action that could very well lead to war
>demands to know our desire
>the answer is fish

I love it. But we really shouldn't.

>>19721345
>Mar is mine, whether the rest of the world knows it or not. I will be Lord of Mar, or possibly Duke or even King if all goes to plan. The people love me as they do none of my family members, and they loathe an outsider. Should I stamp my feet, the territory will rise up for me. You might think this is posturing, I don't blame you. I will not have it tomorrow. I am not so blinded by ambition.

Seconded, but add on "The only thing I need, Gurunir, is time.

>>19721368
Sparta's military was pretty overrated. They won and lost in equal measure. They just happened to have some spectacular 'wins'.

I'm torn. We really shouldn't be talking about getting rid of our family like that.

Maybe fish is the answer, really.

>>19721385
That's not what he wants to give us. He doesn't trust us more than a few minutes ago.

>>19721274
All of the trade from Iru to the East goes through Margade and the Fisewa river, there is not as much as you want because Iru considers you barbarians. I'm the one who can change this.

I am currently improving the trade in Margade by restructuring the tariffs and economic sector not to mention starting trade missions to go farther afield. I believe Theniron which sits astride the same river would be interested in such things.

I am working to end Margade's lack of scholars and intellect, bringing them out of the shadows where they have been forced into and fixing its intellectual decline.

You want Mar, you wouldn't have even bothered with coming here if you didn't. I'm the only one among the sons of Margade who you would be willing to let your sister marry and the one who is likely to end up in a position of control.

>>19721368

Thanks, mate. Damn, so it seems that they are fine with alliances of convenience but a lasting alliance is going to be hard to pull off unless there is a greater threat breathing down their neck.

Maybe, when the atmosphere is less tense, we should ask Saragites and Gurunir about their opinions on Subaran.

>>19721404
>>19721385
I prefer answering with fish. All this talk about being a King is not what he wants to hear anyway. Also >>19721155.

>>19721409

We're not asking him to sell us time though. We're trying (in my mind) to convince him to invest in us, and watch as we become very powerful indeed.

>>19721451
>>19721409
>>19721356
>>19721325
He said say what you want to, not say what you want.

>>19721430
Perhaps we shouldn't bother with getting Theniron and Subaran to ally, what if we strung Meri along and then; when she moves to mount her coup, have Theniron take them over in the confusion?

You give a little speech about your plans, careful not to talk too much about the getting rid of your family bit. You say that you know Gurunir is aware of your potential, otherwise he wouldn't even be here.

'What I will need, Gurunir, is time.'

'Time, and good counsel,' he says. 'And maybe I can offer a little of the latter. You may think you are the only one we are interested in, where Mar is concerned. You may well be right. But if you think you are the only person we are at all interested in... well, you've seen my sister. I've seen many a windbag in my life, but far fewer people of real talent and accomplishment. Many of those latter ones wanted Sara, and Sara wouldn't have them. You'll have to prove you are the latter, instead of the former, if you even wish to stand a chance.'

You can only nod to that. You then invite him for dinner. 'The talk of fishmongers has made me rather peckish.'

'Admittedly, me too!' He laughs, as if completely forgetting that five seconds ago you were staring daggers. 'It will be my pleasure to see you at dinner this evening, Adrian. Now, if you'd kindly excuse me.'

He leaves, and Amaryllis comes in and leads you out of the apartment. 'The gate-guests, sir, say they'd like to speak to you.'

'That's good, I had the same idea.'

'May I say something, sir?'

'Hmm?'

'How insolent!' She whispers.

> What do/say?

>>19721443

I think we need a serious answer now, something that intruiges him, otherwise we risk him storming off which only just avoided.

After giving our answer though, we can end the conversation with our desire for fish.

>>19721467
Well, he is our equal in title... Arrogant might be a better word.

And we still don't know what use they can be to us.
Meri really seems to be the more interesting party.

>>19721472

You aren't really worried about him actually storming back to Theniron - he is far too intelligent for that. It's a bluff and you've called it, which is to your credit at least. You've shown that you've got nerve.

You still have the feeling he's not going to be easy to convince though. And if Sara is like him... which you reckon she is... well.

>>19721489

I think the guy thinks his use is quite obvious. He is going to become the next duke. That means he is going to become a powerful ally, and he already is a powerful ally now.
Maybe it's good we didn't ask either or it might make us look even more stupid.

>>19721479
>>19721467
He reminds me of second brother. He is very much a man of action, more than words. I don't blame him for being so protective of his sister, he spoke true when he said I would do the same for Martha.

>>19721467
From an OOC perspective I like these guys, they're rather competent. From IC I think that they're like a knife, much better when the pointy bit is going the other way.

Somewhat, he's also a protective older brother which is something I can understand. He's also intelligent and most of that was to gauge me and see how I would react.

So, what is it that the gate-guests wish to speak to me about?

>>19721467

Laugh.

"He is a noble Amaryllis. And a sharp one at that. When nobility and cleverness meet, it often bears fruit as such. I agree, but I can safely say his attitude intrigues me at least as much as it irks me. It is a liberating change from the merchants at any rate."

Despite myself I actually like Gurunir, even if I don't like the position he has put us in. Time to meet with our gate-guests.

>>19721514

He's nothing like Tinaga, otherwise we would be in a heap of trouble. Tinaga is bull-headed and brash. This guy is decisive. There is a big difference, he knows what he is doing.

>>19721511
Powerful, sure, and ally, maybe. But that doesn't mean he can do much for us.
Assuming we can become Prince of Mar, what can we do with this ally ? Trade is mutually beneficial, we won't need to marry his sister to improve that. As for war, we can only use him against Subaran - or, more exactly, he will use us against Subaran.

>>19721520
>>19721519

Daneg and Katesas are sitting, with some tea and snacks already prepared by Orchid, when you enter. 'You asked to see me?' you say, sitting down.

'Yes, sir.' The two of them look at each other. 'We were just wondering how you were getting along, sir. And whether the two ladies... well...'

Katesas nods. 'We wonder if anyone has enamoured themselves of you, sir. If you'll pardon our insolence for asking about private matters, except this... isn't very private, if it concerns two states.'

> What do/say?

> Okay, give me about twenty minutes to half an hour if you please. I need to go out and get some lunch before I die of hunger.

> IF YOU KNEW THE THINGS I DID FOR THIS QUEST etc. etc.!

>>19721566
One has a pressing need for me, and the other thinks I should enamoured of her.

>>19721566
Tell them everything. If we can't trust these men then we are well and truly screwed.

Maybe hold off on the exact details of our ambition (beyond intending to succeed our father) but that's it.

>>19721578
>Sweet sweet promises. I need sleep so damn bad. But this quest is the gift that keeps on giving, fantastic stuff so far. I've never been so enraptured by dialouge.

>>19721566
This being politics it can be difficult to tell whether one is enamored of you or if it out of political necessity.

But as far as I can tell Merinites is enamored of me and Saragites may be warming up to me.

The primary difference being how much they need me, how many options aside from me they have.

>>19721578
Just let it be known that we love you Cirrus, we may not know everything you do for us, but we try to. Don't die from hunger on us, it'd mean your quests would stop, and I love your quests.

>>19721593
>>19721566
That is a point, what would our advisors think of our long term goals? At least one of them is a Menegist, they wouldn't like our ambitions in the slightest.

While we wait for OP what's our position Anons?

I'm in favour of building up our power while father still lives, not making any moves beforehand. These are things I advocate.
1) Wrap up that business with Gerharo and the merchant, that will bear the fruit of loyalty if nothing else.
2) Start getting the city guard on our side. The captain we met during the near-riots sounds like a good place to start.
3) Get more holdings, income-producing investments and the like. We need a steady income.
4) Discreetly build up a private force of some sort. This will be our muscle, and we should take great steps so that they are not noticed until we see fit.
5) Recruit more Orchid ninja-esque chicks.

>>19721593
Agreed.

>>19721642
Sounds good. We should also cultivate friendships with other well placed young noblemen. Dispossessed folk looking for a leader. Be generous with the peasantry whenever it is expedient. If we do break away from Iru, having the love of the common folk could make or break us.

Try to get our merchant allies a stronger position in Margade, and marginalise those merchants as have come to dislike us. Can't win 'em all.

>>19721642
We should also learn more about what our siblings plans are, especially Imian's plans.

Keep the public adoring us, we want them on our side if push comes to shove.

Keep our eye open for opportunities, competent gate-guests without a place, scholars who we can meet through our connections there.

>>19721690
>merchants
I agree. Though I think we should divide the localists if at all possible. We should contact some of the more desperate/approachable ones and get them on our side, possibly offering them lucrative contracts on remodelling the city and the like (we really need to explore that crowding solution as that will make us damn popular).

>nobles
We really have been neglecting the nobles that owe allegiance to our father, haven't we? House Ahun we can probably consider to be hostile, or at least have a lot of distrust, after that incident with the magistrate. But we need to stalk contacting the other fellows.

>>19721702
I agree. Imian I think is the only other real contender as far as our siblings go. And we might be able to get him on our side if we get some dirt on him and convince him to invest in our success. We probably can't trust him, but we can trust him to be useful.

>>19721642

Sounds like a good, solid plan.

Maybe we can add to that better relations with the Hillmen. They can be our ace in the hole. We have a hillman gate-guests (Katesas) and we are the benefactors of a tribe.

>>19721789
Has that gone through yet? Last I checked we still had them imprisoned, with a promise to release them. Has the tribe actually moved onto our land now?

> Aww, thanks guys! Love your suggestions and writings too! Also, don't worry, will not die of hunger now.

You tell your gate-guests what you think of Sara and Meri, and they nod. You don't tell them how you found them, and of course your gate-guests don't see fit to ask.

After a while, they ask you about your preferences. Guessing their intentions, you let them speak instead.

'Well...' Daneg speaks first. 'I am personally for Lady Saragites, sir. She is of commensurate rank with you, and is in an excellent position with her duchy. If you are to marry a foreigner, sir, those are important considerations; there must at least be reasons to compensate for her not being an Imperial.'

'I must disagree,' Katesas says, and it becomes clear they've talked about this for some time. 'Rites are important but affection can be cultivated. I am rather more concerned about the political implications of a match. Sir, Lady Saragites' position and that of her brother is very strong - so strong, in fact, as to be almost unassailable. That makes her, at first glance, an ideal match; but you must consider that they need very little of you. Merinites, on the other hand, has need of your aid. With that, you can gain control far more easily.'

'Gaining control over foreign lands is all well and good, sir, but let us not forget the politics within our homeland. At the royal court there is already a lot of tension about the status that his highness, your father, is holding. Is it wise to stir up more controversy over a marriage?'

> What do/say? These are points you've considered before...

>>19721858
> I am rather more concerned about the political implications of a match. Sir, Lady Saragites' position and that of her brother is very strong - so strong, in fact, as to be almost unassailable. That makes her, at first glance, an ideal match; but you must consider that they need very little of you. Merinites, on the other hand, has need of your aid. With that, you can gain control far more easily.'

This, in a pinch, is exactly our dilemma.

Ask them what they think Saragites and her brother would demand/request of us in return. Exactly what are they after?

The hillmen have been released, and the grazing land purchased. They will not settle permanently, though - that would be insane, financing barbarians to settle on Mar land. You could be prosecuted at the royal court for that.

They will use it as winter grazing instead. So far, from your spy networks in the northern villages, the hillmen have been quite quiet.

>>19721858
Tell them our worries about what to do after our father dies. Sara wants someone with power, and if we can't become prince the question of whether she's a good match won't be asked.
As far as I am concerned, home is where my power lies. I might be denied any involvement in loval politics at some not so far off point in the future. What then ?

>>19721858
While Merinites is much easier to gain control of choosing her ties me to her family which is not doing the best. Her father is sickly and her brothers not predisposed to proper rulership.

While she herself is competent a marriage is something that brings two houses together, and her house has little to offer.

Saragites's family is strong and this could bring prosperity and strength to both of our houses.

While difficulties lie in store if I choose Saragites the rewards are greater as well.

>>19721858
>At the royal court there is already a lot of tension about the status that his highness, your father, is holding
Oh ? what do we know about that ?

>>19721924
Indeed.

>>19721941
Second, this is very relevant.

>>19721930
>While Merinites is much easier to gain control of choosing her ties me to her family which is not doing the best. Her father is sickly and her brothers not predisposed to proper rulership.
No. She would marry us if we support her plans, and her plans involve kicking her family aside.
The one family we would be tied with is Sara. Entangled more than tied, too. That's what their strength would be used for.

>>19721930
>>19721876
>>19721924
>>19721941

The matter of what Sara and her brother might want clearly troubles both your advisors as well. After a little discussion, it seems they are agreed - basically, they would want you to become of sufficient posture before considering marriage.

'But what might that mean? Would being the premier Earl be sufficient? Or...'

Daneg looks like he doesn't want to talk about this. Katesas is a little more forthright. 'They may want a prince. Or... given the amount of open space there is to our east and northeast, perhaps they want a great general and lord even?'

... what, an expedition? You think about that...

As for denial from local politics, that's a tough question too. By common practice, you would become yet another of the earls around the East Lake, with a little manor and nothing much else...

If anything is to be done, it ought to be done while your father is still alive - or right after.

As for Merinites, Katesas shakes his head. 'That is untrue. Subaran is ill-governed, but that does not mean it's weak. Consider this, sir - even after 6 years of misrule, corruption and neglect, even after their family squabbles and the exile of Lady Merinites' branch - even after all this, Theniron, for all its aggressiveness and ambition, has yet to move its troops in anger against Subaran. They may demonstrate, but demonstration is frequent enough between the two states. That Theniron does not dare move is not for want of boldness. They are cognizant that Subaran is ill but not gravely so; limping, perhaps, but far from collapse.'

> What do/say?