You have acquire and then perform an ancient and terrible magic rite. Ideally this would be conclusion of a character's arc, after having betrayed everything and everyone they ever held dear.

>>21254544
that's such a fucking stereotype. It's like you havent heard of the 'virgin's blood' aisle at ReagentMart.

>>21254544
Nope. You can play all lich party after, in a quest of obtaining demi-lich status, then you can try to become a god, like Vecna. Only after you become on arc ends.

>>21254557
You can go that direction too, I guess. I prefer a setting where the means to such immortality has been scoured from the earth by the combined efforts of people who believe its evil and unnatural as well as those who have already achieved immortality and don't want the competition. As a result, only the most dedicated and depraved characters who are willing to go to any lengths necessary will actually achieve lichdom.

I was wondering how I would go about making a Cleric/Lich. I read somewhere that you can still cast heal on non-undead allies as long as it isn't a spontaneous cast.

So wouldn't I just level him up until I can make the phylactery and go for it? I just think it'd be cool to have a character that has control over both life and death.

File: 1351014177827.png-(74 KB, 576x1136, Archlich.png)

One of my Players became a lich in our 4E campaign; it's an epic destiny.

Pic related.

If you're playing 4E and want to be a good lich, this is the way to go.

>>21254544
What do you need for the rites by chance? The only ingredients i've been able to find was the blood of a young child.

>>21254585

Didn't know that

neat

Make your Phylactery a big ass gold chain that, encrusted in rubies, says "PHYLACTERY" on it, wear it around your neck at all times.

Carry around a much smaller and less flashy pimp cane, enchant this cane so that anyone who touches it is transported to the plane of dicks while simultaneously transporting your necklace to a jewelry store that sells items too gaudy for anyone to actually buy.

Watch as hero after hero slays you only to not touch your too obvious phylactery necklace and instead gets themselves transported to the plane of dicks.

>>21254585
are there any ways to do it without a destiny, and that aren't inherently GOOD?
My necromancer is going to be more along the lines of batshit insane.

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>>21254626

Here are the specs for an evil lich transformation under Orcus' power.

You can use it for 4e, or as just a general guide for what a ritual like it might cost. Works for most settings with some tweaking.

>>21254509
>the crying of the chickens...

>>21254650
You've been a big help

Had an idea for the classic Phylactery problem.

I'm calling it the Immovable rod starbase.

Phylactery is an Immovable rod or attached to one. Built around it is an adamantium sphere which would contain magic gates or means to construct them. The majority of the portals/gates are one way only and open to a location you've selected for backup base(s).

Personally I'd want to have 1 gate with a 2 way option that could open onto the Astral Plane but again could only be activated from the base. It would stay open for so many hours allowing you to restock any supplies.

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Alright, so here's what's up. You're a fucking Lich. Shit, I know, right? Let's make the best of it. You're basically immortal. You have enormous magical powers. You've got undead armies at your beck and call. But there's negatives. First, you're a gleaming rod of glowing XP for any mid to high level adventuring group. That sucks. You're going to be on your toes often. Two, your ability to acquire resources is going to be limited. You can't just walk into fucking town and buy a bushel of corpses. You're either going to need a rock solid cover identity, or a web of mortal agents who you trust with your unlife. The first is probably easier, but the second one is about a bazillion times more awesome. Next: LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. Where do you put your eminent domain? You're probably thinking "lol i put in tower xD". FUCK THAT SHIT. Every goddamn lich has a fucking tower. I mean, fuck. You're undead. How about a shipwreck at the bottom of the ocean? An airless cut off caved in cavern only accessible by teleporting? USE YOUR DAMNED IMAGINATION. Finally, what are you trying to achieve? You're already immortal and you ain't got no dick to fuck chicks.. So what's left? World conquest. Blasé. Try something nuts. I don't fucking know. Something better than being a BBEG in someone else's game. Also, keep your phylactery somewhere smart. Not in the back of your cave. Try a normal fucking bank vault filed under a triple layer of fake names. A personal dimension. Be smart about it.

I like to make my phylactery into rings. Later on I will turn it into a living spell - etherealness and leave it on the ethereal plane forever.

Can I make my phylactery a golden heart, place it in the core of a huge tombstone and animate rocks + that tombstone into a golem?

>>21254896
Wouldn't that make it a giant moving target?

>>21254919
It's in my underground lair, of course. But I just want it to do my chores for me.

>>21254783
Immortal and not sure what to do?

Become ruler of a kingdom legally. Study like a boss in all subjects to be the best adviser that the current king has ever had. No need to eat, shit, sleep or drink. Just study all things to offer the best advice.

Become his second in command. Become the second in command of his son, and his son and his son all down the generations. Be an upstanding member of the community. Found and fund orphanages with the money you are saving on food and shit. Wear only a simple monks habit. Become a symbol of purity and moral guidance to the whole kingdom.

Eventually, hundreds of years on the line maybe, you are going to be named the successor of the throne. And by this time you will be the most experienced head of state there has ever been and be loved and adored by your subjects for hundreds of years of good deeds.

Now you have your own kingdom and you are Good King Beltharoth the Undying, Scourge of the Hells and Violator of Mortality.

>>21254704

You're welcome.

>>21254896
as a GM, i sure as hell would allow that. I have a player that wants to make a replica of this one sword with a Strong Necromancy aura, hide his phylactery (a ring) in the false pummel and if someone senses magic from it, he'd be like "Oh necromancy? It's just the sword, man"

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Dumping Lich Images

>>21255037

King?
Fuck this shit, I am going to some tropical Island and become Eternal Presidente Generalissimo Blacksoul, warboss of both alive and undead.

So there are Evil Liches and "Good" Liches...
But there is a Neutral option?

>>21255078
>I have a player that wants to make a replica of this one sword with a Strong Necromancy aura, hide his phylactery (a ring) in the false pummel and if someone senses magic from it, he'd be like "Oh necromancy? It's just the sword, man"

Make several replicas of the sword. It'll be a more well known feature of that line of swords so less chance of someone figuring it out.

>>21255156

Well, the evil liches are generally evil because of their intent for unlife, and the fact that they usually get such power from evil forces like Orcus.

The archlich in >>21254585 proves that liches don't NEED to be evil, but that doesn't make the archlich inherently good. It all depends on how you play your character, really. The archlich epic destiny is simply proof that there are other ways to unlife.

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>>21255156
Yes.

>>21255156
Become Undead Lawyer.

>>21255187
No no no, NEUTRAL, not LAWFUL EVIL. Silly anon.

>>21255187
>>21255202
Lich lawyer's office with a permanent city guard presence. Every time PC's bust in to kill him they get arrested.

Lich agrees to represent them if they stop trying to kill him.

>>21254783
>You can't just walk into fucking town and buy a bushel of corpses.

I'm already envisioning this.

>Lich come to town with undead army
>Offer to pledge his skeletons and magic powers to do various tasks
>Ask to be paid in corpses

FUCK! I'M GONNNA DO THIS IN MY NEXT CAMPAIG!

Is it possible for a character to become a Lich and be an anti-hero, kinda like the Punisher? or become a Necessary Evil lich?

>>21255156

Selfishness is generally an evil trait and what is more selfish than living forever?

I make my phylactery a small gold talisman with a fuckhueg amount of abjurations on it to prevent divination, and then I sail out and throw it to the bottom of the fucking ocean.

End result being an unfindable (or at the very least, very safe) phylactery. Sure it'll suck to reform on the ocean floor, but that is what teleport is for.

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>>21255245

Anything's possible.

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I'm playing a Necromancer right now in a Pathfinder campaign of Golarion. My Necromancer hails from Geb, a land named for its powerful ghost king Geb. You see, centuries ago Geb had a rivalry with a neighboring nation that belonged to an equally powerful mage named Nex. For years they made war against one another over some perceived slight, causing so much damage that the neutral land between them became the blasted and apocalyptic "Mana Wastes".

Now Geb always had a necromantic slant, but when a huge swath of his people were killed in this war he began to revive them as zombies to act as workers. Eventually Nex fled to some sort of pocket dimension and left Geb without his final victory. When Geb finally died a curse bound his soul to his land and he became an incredibly powerful ghost king in charge of an undead nation. Mostly the zombies just pick crops and export them to other places (even Nex) and he doesn't bother his neighbors. Human beings still live there and are protected by law, but it's still dangerous due to all the roving packs of ghouls and such. The aristocracy is made up of wraiths and liches and vampires and such.

My character is leaving Geb with the goal of becomming a lich and joining the aristocracy of his nation, but there is a bit more to it than that. For one thing, growing up there as a child and avoiding death at the hands of ghouls and zombies (so that he wouldn't be stuck as some dipshit 10 year old sized ghoul) kind've made his life a precious commodity to him. Secondly, he wants to see more of the world before he becomes undead, considering it's a bit harder to travel when paladins everywhere want to slay your undead ass. Lastly, my Necromancer is looking for a proper Phylactery to house his soul. Specifically he's trying to find an object that is functionally indestructible even when subjected to the most powerful of magics.

Pic related, it's Geb.

>>21255314
Man, Geb and Nex looks really... meh. I mean, Karzoug and a bunch of other high-profile spellcasters are really awesome looking, but Nex and Geb, the 5000 year old ghost and archmage are quite bland.

>>21255314

Somewhat interesting basis for a character.

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Naga Lich

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I like this fellow.

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>>21255314

Did I mention that at one point the Knights of Ozem tried to take Geb on? They had just finished a campaign against another incredibly powerful undead, a lich called the Whispering Tyrant, whom they imprisoned in a tower. High off their victory they decided to wage a campaign against Geb as well (despite the fact he really wasn't attacking anyone or causing trouble).

So a few of their greatest Knights rode into the land of Geb to slay its ghostly king, and they got their shit rocked and were even enslaved by Geb and turned them into grave knights. Annoyed by their bullshit, he sent them back to their monastery and had them steal the interred body of one of their orders greatest members, Arazni, a herald of god Aroden and the patron saint of the knights.

Once Geb had her body he raised her from the dead and made her his Harlot Queen, eventually poisoning her mind against her order.

Geb is a badass. Pic is Arazni.

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> And there I sat, doing the same Necromantic shit every day, every night. And one day I said to myself: "Mortraxion, is it really too late to become a world-famous Bard?".

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>>21255447

File: 1351018895709.jpg-(64 KB, 298x370, demilich1.jpg)

>>21255447

If a Lich gets bored they fade into a Demi Lich. Their body wastes away and crumbles into dust, leaving just their skull behind. Usually their skull just sits there waiting for someone to come by before awakening to steal that persons soul.

That's why most liches spend a lot of time on research and other things that interest them and sometimes personally start wars or intrigue just to keep themselves occupied so that they wont become demi-liches.

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Last one I got. Enjoy.

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>>21254509
The same way this guy did.

File: 1351020322277.jpg-(371 KB, 964x1200, 1343181437385.jpg)

The process of becoming a lich is personal and unique to the individual spellcaster. It takes years of work, research, and is a quest in itself. The ritual almost always involves the sacrifice of an innocent mortal soul, possibly more than one for the truly vile. If anything goes wrong, the mage may die or worse.

Ha ha, the whole thing to try and get playable Liches into Project Eternity was pretty funny.

>>21255787
Also pretty fun.

>>21255254
>living forever is selfish

Wait, what?

>>21255906

>I do not want to die when my time is up
>I would rather continue on past my expiration to do my own thing
>lol suck it gods, no soul for you, eat a dick wut wut

>>21255960
So that's one less soul for them out of, what, millions?

>>21255975

Exactly. Millions move on to the afterlife. Why is the lich so special?

>>21255993
>millions are starving in the world, what makes you so special to have food?

>>21256007

Aside from the obvious false comparison, you should now you see why it is an evil act.

>>21256007

What indeed?

>>21256025
The comparison is that just because others have not, does not mean that one has to deprive oneself of something out of some false sense of... something.

>>21255993
What about the gods themselves, then? Why do THEY get to be immortal, powerful, and all that jazz, huh?

>this is like Vecna all over again

>>21256055

It does though. You are going against the natural order of the cosmos. This is not real life where you can play at subjective morality. This is a world where the Gods define the cosmos and they have decreed that mortals die, Deities use the souls for fuel, and any attempt at subversion is for selfish reasons (usually).

>>21256082

Because they are deities, not mortals. Sure you can play at them just being super powerful NPCs but even then, they are more powerful than any lowly lich. In a god eat god world, they are at the top of the food chain so even that analogy does not work.

>>21255257
And eventually the ocean crust will be sucked back down into the earth and be turned back into magma, sure it will take a long time, but your goal is to live forever so you'll be there for it.

Dammit /tg/. Even now, with this? Lich morality squabbles?

>>21256089
...You do realize the Gods themselves are selfish bastards in your hypothesis. Fuck if I wanna be reduced to a divine snack.

>>21256130
They don't like the mortals getting uppity.

File: 1351022161833.gif-(667 KB, 400x154, 1340515566177.gif)

>>21256130

That is fine. You can see them like that. The difference is though is what happens to those souls. Good deities absorb them into the plane while evil ones prolly literally do snack on them. But until you can subvert their power long enough for you to actually challenge them. As the only adage goes, deal with it.

>>21256025
I'm not who you're talking to, but I truly can not.
Does souls not being sent to the gods deprive them of something important or heavily wanted?

>>21256177

In most DnD settings, gods do not snack on souls. They sometimes make them their heralds or servants, but even the evil folks get an afterlife.

Even if one has to sacrifice an innocent mortal's soul, if one were to use the power of lichdom to go around fighting evil, it might well be worth it, and overall a good endeavor. Something to think about.

>>21256199

Yes. You are given a soul. That is what makes you a mortal. Usually by some over-deity. That over-deity then declares the deities in charge of maintaining balance between abstract concepts (law, good, chaos, evil) using souls as fuel.

>>21256239

Just because you're created by someone, doesn't give that person the right to abuse and, in the end, kill you for their own purposes. Just because someone is created by someone else doesn't make them a slave.

>>21256239
>That over-deity then declares the deities in charge of maintaining balance between abstract concepts (law, good, chaos, evil) using souls as fuel.
Sounds like something those dicks made up in order to keep mortals scared and in line if you ask me.

>>21256210

They are usually absorbed back into the plane where the deity resides from most sources I have read. Which makes sense. What does a deity need with so many heralds anyways? Stroke his ego? Psh.

>>21256113

Yeah, well, fuck those assholes. I hate the way the world is run. I hate the fact that some races are totally cool, and others are just XP fodder. I hate the fact that your clerics get to cast spells in armor, while I - a wizard that alters reality with a thought - cannot. Shit, it's not like I even NEED armor, but it's the thought that counts.

So, there you go. A neutral lich. He wants to become powerful enough to vanquish the gods, the demons, the devils, the celestials, and in fact, ALL of the Outer Planes.

Because everyone on the Outer Planes is a fucking douche.

>>21256264
Exactly, that would mean a father could kill his own child and it would be morally acceptable.

>>21256264

Do you ask the same question of ants? Why should the gods do the same to you?

>>21256264

That is a terrible misinterpretation of what is going on. You are playing in a world where too much of any of the big 4 concepts would destroy reality. Every soul is needed to maintain that balance.

Man, lich threads are getting really old right now.

Also, gods typically don't eat peoples' souls. The souls of mortals are sent to planes of their deity or to the one most like their own alignment where they often become things like petitioners of the plane, of if important enough a servant of their deity.

>>21256294

I, in fact, don't do things like needlessly torture ants to get my jollies. Small they may be, but gaining joy in their suffering degrades me.

>>21256289
I'M A REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE
MUTINOUS WITHOUT A PAUSE
EVEN THE GODS WILL HEAR MY ROARS
I'M A MOTHERFUCKING LICH
AND I REJECT YOUR LAWS

>>21256319
Bull. Get me a citation that might support this idea other than it being convenient for those in power.

>>21256319

As a Paladin, I am not interested in maintaining any sort of balance. Let me tell you.

>>21256348

What about the food you eat? Since we like the eating souls analogy. Do you care if your food thinks it should live forever?

>>21256294
1.) Ants don't question back
2.) If you go around squashing ants those guys are in their full rights to bite the shit out of you.

>>21256358

>citation

Are you fucking retarded? This is not real life. This is an imaginary world where alignment systems are the norm. Check out the "Book of Alignments" if you want more detail. Otherwise go back to beating off to your ideals of fantasy world release.

>>21256319
>You are playing in a world where too much of any of the big 4 concepts would destroy reality. Every soul is needed to maintain that balance.
Really? Sounds like you're asspulling stuff to support an implausible theory.

>>21256374

If my food was able to tell me that it does not want to be eaten, that it in fact possesses both sentience and sapience, and a desire for self-determinism?

Fuck no, I wouldn't eat it! I'd enroll it in a philosophy course, or become best friends with it!

/r/ing pictures of spaghetti girls

>>21256374

Gods do not need to consume souls to survive. It's much different from me eating food. In any case, I receive my food via magic cast by by cleric friends to leave a smaller ecological footprint.

>>21256400

>implying a lvl 1 commoner or even a level 20 wizard is comparable to a deity

>>21256395

>well thats not how it works in my world

Fine, go make your own world where deities dont exist and all your happy little people live forever.

>>21256374
>Do you care if your food thinks it should live forever?
No. But why the fuck should I care about what they think if I'm the food?
I'm sure a cow doesn't give a fuck what I think, and if they were more intelligent they would be fully within reason to rebel.

>>21256446

Now you understand why over-deities do not care that you think you should live forever and not be subject to the rules that they made the universe out of.

>>21256412

Level 1 Commoner? No. Level 20 Wizard, with his buddy Level 20 Fighter and best friend Level 20 Rogue? With artifacts in every orifice?

Yeah, they're more than comparable. Seriously, do you not do Epic-level adventuring?

>>21256444
>Just because it doesn't work in this specific way means it's a world where deities dont exist and all your happy little people live forever.

Also
>Falling for the lies of the gods

>>21256141
Well, that's their problem. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a spellship to Sigil in 20 minutes.

>>21256477

>level 20 characters are comparable to level 60 gods with divine rank

Really?

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>>21256473
I understand that they don't care, but do you understand that I don't care that they don't care?
Why should I give a fuck about their eating habits? I have the will and the way to get out of it, and the intelligence and the power to stand up to them is some small way.

>>21256539

Because unlike you, they have the power to make you give up your soul. Especially if an over-deity decrees it.

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>>21256473
>Falling into line just because the gods think something should operate in a certain way.
I don't think so.

>>21256522
In 3.5, deities are usually statted out being level 30-40 with divine ranks.

>>21256567

30-40 PC ranks with 20 HD of outsider and Diving Rank.

>>21256582

>ranks

Levels. Muh bad

>>21256549

Still doesn't make them right.

>>21256623

Then you can tell that to what ever deity you meet in the afterlife.

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>>21254509

Do what this Lich did.

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>>21256640
>implying deities, defacto rulers of outer planes, don't care about what mortals think of them

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>>21256400
>If my food was able to tell me that it does not want to be eaten, that it in fact possesses both sentience and sapience, and a desire for self-determinism?

>Fuck no, I wouldn't eat it! I'd enroll it in a philosophy course, or become best friends with it!

>Van Richten's Guide to the Lich
This is the definitive 2e fluff about lichs, and includes certain Planescape-style implied implications.

>>21254952
So you bind your soul into an inanimate object, animate it, and damn it to menial labor for all eternity? It's like you weren't satisfied with going to hell for meddling with dark things man was never meant to know, so you had to go and do something worse to yourself.

>>21255239
As an incidental side effect, your knowledge of anatomy becomes staggeringly greater than most doctors of your era. Your medical practice is confounded by unfortunate admissions that all of your surgeries would be so much more successful if you weren't trying to keep the patient alive.

>>21256235
>A couple of heroes battling for the Greater Good finds the recipe for lichdom.
>When they reach the end of their lives, one fuels the ritual with their soul so that the other can keep fighting ad aeternam.
>The phylactery is their wedding ring.

WELP

>>21256235
Committing evil acts willingly, even in pursuit of a good objective, is still evil. Your paladin falls. Yes, even in 4e.

>>21255156
Druid and monk. They live forever.

>>21256235
LG (and the paladin's code) leans strongly towards Kantian ethics, and away from Bentham. Utilitarian ethics are notoriously prone to iterative acausal traps; slippery slopes to most people.

IOW, you are proposing the plot of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. That's LE.

>>21257479

I'm a utilitarian paladin.

>>21257565

LG can be a variety of things. I'll take it as Bentham without the voyeurism fetish.

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Rolled 2, 5, 5 = 12

>>21257557
No, they just don't age past levels 15 and 17, respectively. They still die when they hit maximum age.

Mind you, elans don't have a maximum age. Hit level fifteen before you turn 200, and boom, eternal youth.

>>21257770
You can call yourself what you want, but if you're doing evil and calling yourself a paladin, you're actually a blackguard.

>Not teleporting to the moon and putting your phylactery there

>>21258383
Your local moon goddess is likely to be a bit upset about that. Especially if she hates undead, which a lot do.

>>21258383
Moons are extremely visible targets. You never know when some asshole is going to use some high powered magic or technology to write his name on one, or maybe some wandering demigod will take a bite out of it. Then you're fucked.

Is it possible for a bard to become a lich? And if not, is there any way to make such a thing possible?

>>21258983
In a game of pretend, you can be anything you want.

Besides which, liches are totally metal.

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>>21259055
>In a game of pretend, you can be anything you want.

...so I'll never be able to stroll across the countryside, entertaining strangers with my amazing rib cage xylophone for all eternity?

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>>21259163
You will be able to, its all good anon.

Something I want to do is bring a visiting lich to the city I'm running game in. Its a LE nation so as long as he plays by the rules he'll be fine. Would be great fun for creeping the players out though. :)