How does our optimized-for-athletic-skills level 20 human ranger in Next/5e stack up an optimized-for-athletic-skills level 6 human ranger in D&D 4e? No magic items, just pure physical prowess. Let us see.

It is trivial for a level 6 human ranger in 4e to have Strength 20 and Wisdom 16, so let us go with that.

Let us give our 4e ranger a background that grants +2 Athletics. Let us also give them a theme that grants +2 Athletics at level 5; out of the 108 published themes, many of them grant Athletics bonuses. (Backgrounds exist in Next/5e, but work differently. Themes also exist in Next/5e, but were renamed "specialties" in the more recent playtest packets, and they also work differently.)

A 4e ranger receives five trained skills, and a human gets an additional trained skill. Let us train our 4e ranger in Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, Perception, and Stealth. Since the level 20 human ranger in Next/5e spend four out of their four feats on skill boosters, let us have our 4e ranger take Skill Focus (Athletics) for +3 Athletics, Skill Focus (Perception) for +3 Perception, and Kord's Force to make an Athletics check in place of any skill check.

Our 4e ranger is probably wearing chain armor, so their total Athletics bonus is 3 half level + 5 Strength modifier + 5 training + 2 background + 2 theme + 3 Skill Focus - 1 chain armor = Athletics +19, and their Perception bonus is 3 half level + 3 Wisdom modifier + 5 training + 3 Skill Focus = Perception +14.

Let us square off the level 20 Next/5e ranger (who is trained in only Break an Object, Climb, Listen, and Track, remember?) and the level 6 4e ranger in various tests of athleticism and perceptiveness, shall we now?

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Climb at DC 30 to climb an oiled rope
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 182: Athletics at DC 20 to climb a slippery and unusually smooth rope
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 1

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of climbing an oiled rope, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Break an Object at DC 30 to break open a heavy door held by a metal bar or a masterwork lock
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Rules Compendium, page 175: Strength at DC 20 to break open a reinforced, barred door
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 2

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of breaking down a reinforced, barred door, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Break an Object at DC 30 to break chains or manacles
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Rules Compendium, page 175: Strength at DC 28 to burst out of iron chains
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 60%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 3

The level 6 4e ranger has a 60% chance of bursting out of iron chains, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Swim at DC 20 to swim in stormy waters
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+5
Chance of success: 25%.

>4e Player's Handbook, page 182: Athletics at DC 20 to swim in stormy waters
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 4

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of swimming in stormy waters, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 9: Track at DC 25 to track a creature across bare stone
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1d12+5
Chance of success: 37.5%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 187: Perception at DC 25 to track a creature across bare stone
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+14
Chance of success: 50%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 5

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 8: Listen at DC 15 to eavesdrop on a conversation through a door
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1d12+5
Chance of success: 85%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 187: Perception at DC 15 to eavesdrop on a conversation through a door
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+14
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 6

This is a bonus round because it takes the level 20 Next/5e ranger and the level 6 4e out of their element. Two skilled wilderness hunters must now enter a city and gather information by talking to people.

The point-buy for Next/5e is incredibly restrictive. Let us be generous and give the Next/5e ranger Charisma 12, which is a significant chunk of their point-buy. Their Gather Rumors check bonus is thus +1.

On the other hand, let us just completely dump Charisma for the 4e ranger, down to 8. Their Streetwise bonus is therefore 3 half level - 1 Charisma modifier = Streetwise +2.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 9: Gather Rumors at DC 15 to find what you need in a city
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1
Chance of success: 35%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 188: Streetwise at DC 15 to gather information in a typical settlement
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+2
Chance of success: 40%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 7

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So what can we conclude from this? High-level characters in Next/5e are incredibly incompetent as far as skills are concerned. Even when performing the tasks they are optimized for, due to a combination of poorly scaling skill check bonuses and high DCs, they simply cannot succeed at the tasks level 20 characters should be succeeding at. A level 20 character in Next/5e is fighting balors and pit fiends. Why does climbing an oiled rope or breaking down a barred door pose so much trouble?

Furthermore, characters in Next/5e have too little skills. The level 20 Next/5e ranger in the example above is trained in 4 skills... out of 26, or 15% of the skills. They can break objects, climb, listen, track, and... well, that would be about it.

The level 6 4e ranger is trained in 7 skills out of 17, or 41% of the skills. They can balance, tumble, break falls, and perform acrobatic tricks like a swashbuckler (Acrobatics); climb, jump, swim, and exert force on objects effortlessly (Athletics); perform physical activity all day long (Endurance); know everything there is to know about creatures and plants of the natural world, tame and handle animals, and forage for food (Nature); perceive things with all five senses with great acuity and track in the wilderness (Perception); and hide and sneak about with a panther's grace (Stealth).

The level 6 4e ranger is basically Connor/Ratonhnhaké:ton from Assassin's Creed III, leaping across tree branches without breaking a sweat, without ever tiring.

Why is the level 20 Next/5e ranger so incompetent in comparison?

And yes, I have sent this as playtest feedback.

So I think we can say that 4E makes skill checks trivial, while 5E goes with 4E-esque DCs without taking into account the dramatic reduction in the degree of bonuses?

Sounds about right.

>>24293632

In fairness, the level 6 4e character is optimized for Athletics and Perception, and it shows, by allowing the character to succeed on such skill checks with ease.

A more combat-optimized level 6 ranger in 4e (as is the standard) would have much more difficulty with skill checks, but would be more capable in battle.

The problem is that the level 20 Next/5e ranger has spent four out of four feats on skill optimization, and yet remains incapable of achieving heroic tasks with their specialty skills.

>>24293650
>better than 1 out or 4 odds.
>Incapable

>>24293669

Hyperbole.

I think that's kind of the idea. To scale things down. A common complaint of DnD is things begin to break down as you approach the higher levels.

Just saiyan. I still don't like the idea of the level 20 ranger having such a goddamn hard time even though he was a specialized skill monkey.

When is 5e supposed to be released anyway? I hope its not soon, because I heard its supposed to be within the year.

>>24293713
They broke down not because the characters could break chains or climb oiled rope, but because you're have a billion feats, a ton of spells, a crap-load of class features on a single character, tossed into combat with 3-5 other similar characters and 1-7 similar opponents.

>>24293676
It's also supposed to be a challenge, not a given.

1 in 4 odds is a very generous cap to make sure that even "The best in the world" has difficulty when dealing with the most difficult of tasks. Given the binary nature of most checks.

If you really wanted to pick apart skill systems, you would look at the disparity between High and low skilled characters. I am so tired of having the fighter sit in the corner, checking their Ipad, because the rouge is the only person in the party who can do half of the checks in a challenge.

I guess they are trying to make it so players share the spotlight, better than being a wizard but having a bard with better knowledge of the arcane and history and dungeons and nature and... etc

>>24293744
Because not being able to climb an oiled rope really allows the Wizard casting fly to shine.

>>24293746
and then the wizard can go to the ledge and chuck a rope ladder down, do you even work as a team?

>>24293560
They scaled down everything for 5e. You shouldn't be able to break chains/manacles easily. Even at level 20 strength. In this edition you're not superman.

>>24293753
>working as a team
>Wizard in the party

>>24293744
Right now it doesn't feel like they are accomplishing that. A Ranger maxing his muscles is still going to be failing most of his attempts. At the very least it should be 50/50 and considering his feats, it should definitely be higher.

To let others shine they should give you a narrow selection of a wide choice of skills and allow you to perform very well with chosen skills, especially if spending feats, and allow others to perform poorly or about average.

>>24293746
No, but it prevents requiring higher level dungeons to stock "The Shadowweave Deamonspawn Chaos-Lubricated Rope of Falling on your Ass" everywhere. Which only one person in the party can even use to begin with.

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>>24293756

>They scaled down everything for 5e. You shouldn't be able to break chains/manacles easily. Even at level 20 strength. In this edition you're not superman.

And yet the bestiary shows us that level 20 characters in Next/5e fight balors, pit fiends, and perhaps even Asmodeus himself.

The Lord of the Nine Hells is a valid challenge, but an oiled rope is just *too much* for the world's greatest climber?

>>24293777
At some point we're going to realize that at higher level dungeons, climbing a rope won't matter. So making that rope hard to climb doesn't make sense.

Am I the only one who thinks he SHOULD fail 75% of the time?

I mean... it's an oiled rope.

Show me someone, anyone in the world who can climb up an oiled rope even 25% of the time.

The level 6 ranger in 4th climbing up an oiled rope 100% of the time is insane.

>>24293802
No, I agree.

Besides, it's not like he can't try multiple times.

>>24293806
>swing onto oiled rope over a gaping chasm to escape from a legion of demons

>Athletics monkey level 6 ranger in 4e succeeds even on a natural 1

>Strength skill monkey level 20 ranger in Next fails 72.25% of the time

>>24293802
A level 6 character has already passed the boundaries of peak modern mundane human.

>>24293756
20 strength is incredibly powerful, and the character spent 20 levels (basically his whole life) training to break things !

>>24293789
Look at his stats man. He doesn't even have Divine Rank.
They aren't fighting metaphysical concepts at that level in Next. Just really strong monsters.

>>24293789
Can balors, pit fiends, and asmodeus break chains with their bare hands 100% of the time ?
If not, I don't see what the problem is.

>>24293842
Imagine it the other way around. Balors/ probably even Asmodeus AREN'T specced to break doors/chains/whatever.

They'd fail even harder at these tasks.

Why is the 4e ranger even better at tracking things and listening than the 5e ranger, even though the 5e ranger is 14 levels higher?

>>24293858
But that's fine, isn't it ? If the PCs are no longer semi-omnipotent at high levels, then neither should their enemies.
I for one am fine with gods as very powerful monsters who rely mostly on their divine servants to get stuff done.

>>24293842
>20 strength is incredibly powerful, and the character spent 20 levels (basically his whole life) training to break things !

Not even the strongest man in the world could break down a barred, reinforced door.

>>24293858
I find this pretty amusing.
Your swords and spells have had no success at bringing down the foul god, Asmodeus.

Fortunately whilst the fighter was grappling with him the rogue managed to slip on some iron chains.

One of the most evil entities in the known universe has now been successfully subdued.

>>24293560
Why are characters in 4E so blisteringly incompetent ? You see, if you compare a starting Exalted character and a level 20 4E character...

>>24293884
Guess he should have learned to Knock.

>>24293896
But the 4e skill DCs and the 5e skill DCs are similar.

That's where the problem is.

It seems to me that if something is doable by living, real-world mortals, then it should be doable by a low to mid level adventurers. Climbing an oiled rope, swimming in stormy waters, breaking iron chains... these are all things that can (and have) been done by real-world humans. 3e hit the nail on the head here by making sure that, for the most part, any real-world record could be matched or exceeded by semi-optimized characters at level 6 AND by making sure that there were places to develop from there. By the time you hit level 20, you shouldn't be worrying about climbing oiled ropes; if you're rolling a climb check it should be because you've put effort into getting a decent modifier and the GM is giving you a chance to showcase it by scaling a smooth adamantine wall at a 120 degree incline with a permanent Grease effect.

The idea that an oiled rope should be a challenge for a high-level adventurer of multiplanar significance is just absurd.

>>24293896
>You see, if you compare a starting Exalted character and a level 20 4E character...

The level 20 4e character will kick the starting Solar's ass, because starting Solars aren't even that strong?

>>24293872
In 5e, the math is flat. You start off as a (relatively) normal person. You don't get bonuses for just leveling up. You can get better but it is in small, manageable, amounts.

In 4e, You get (level)bonuses on (stat)bonuses on (feat+skill)bonuses on (equipment)bonuses, as you level up. You start out as a superhero, and end up as a god.

>>24293913
Show me proof anywhere on the internet that anyone has ever successfully climbed an oiled rope.

>>24293884

I was under the impression that martial DnD characters pass 'peak human ability' around level eight.

>>24293903
But the power levels are apparently completely different.

If only the PCs had been powered down, it would be a problem. Since the depowering is across the board, it's fine. It's simply that a single individual, man or monster, can only achieve so much power.

>>24293884
Why does the strongest man in the world have the ability to kill gods, but not knock down a door. A strong door, sure, but...it's not a god. This door isn't divine in anyway.

>>24293938
But isn't it more awesome and impressive that a man who is still limited by human ability can kill gods?

>>24293938
Because gods can't knock down that goddamn door either.

>>24293919
Show me proof anywhere on the internet that anyone has ever successfully killed a god.

>>24293938
But neither is the god he killed.
Seriously, look at the stats.

>>24293938

Maybe the door is barred with a Divine Plank.

>>24293938

Asmodeus and the others aren't gods any more in 5e. He's the Lord of the Nine Hells, but 5e makes everyone more down to earth.

Even the Lord of the Nine Hells can have only so much power.

It's more, you know, realistic this way.

Does 5e have a quick outline of where your characters should measure up to the "common folk" at each level? 4e spells it out pretty plainly and by epic tier you're basically superhuman.

I'm fine with scaling things way back in 5, but there is still the big issue of the plain mechanics. A Ranger looking to specialize so much into said skills and gaining very little for it, is a problem. I don't want to fucking see every goddamn character with [Weapon/Implement] Expertise again.

>>24293954
Man, my decision to ditch D&D for better RPGs when 3e ran its course is feeling like a better idea every day.

>>24293954

Nice to know that if the literal devil of this universe is coming for your soul, you can just hide behind a particularly sturdy locked door.

>>24293966
Not that it'll stop him from burning down your house.

>>24293943
No? It speaks of poorly thought out themes and not understanding what a god is. Like, if you have groups of people that are at the peak of human ability able to take down gods, why do gods exist? I mean, if level 20 is the best a human can get, it can't be that uncommon. And if it isn't that uncommon, then why do gods try to be gods and not just die to the waves of level 20 humans that want their piece of the Astral Plane?

Also,
>it's okay, because a god can't do it
You guys realize how retarded this sounds, right? "Man, I can create entire planes, races, and empower millions of worshipers, but I can't just break down this mundane door.

>>24293966
To be fair, he probably knows knock.

Also, that pile of rubble blocking that cave entrance is vaguely like a door, so that'll get him past that too.

>>24293560
Wait, hold up...

5e is going to RIP OFF IRONCLAW?

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>>24293959

>Does 5e have a quick outline of where your characters should measure up to the "common folk" at each level? 4e spells it out pretty plainly and by epic tier you're basically superhuman.

This is the statistics block for a human commoner.

>>24293979
In what world does a pile of rubble resemble a door.

And since when does Knock move piles of rubble?

>>24293966
Its okay, we tossed him in the lockup. He won't be getting out of that cell for a good long while. Solid iron those chains are.

>>24293993
Pack tactics is a nifty gimmick. Can a player get that?

It's nice to know that Fenrir is unstattable in 5e terms.

>>24293995
>Its okay, we tossed him in the lockup. He won't be getting out of that cell for a good long while. Solid iron those chains are.

NASA is calling me and demanding to know why the Hubble telescope can spot my sides.

>>24293990
Worse, implementing scaled dice to try and emulate a portion, and the hybrid functions worse than 3e or 4e.

>>24293966
How else can you let him make a Cameo at the start of a campaign?
The PCs have to legitimately escape somehow.

>>24293974
I'm a 3E player, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but...
>I can create entire planes
Don't gods make their domains in existing planes ?
>create races
I don't think even the powerful 3E gods can do that. Races create gods, not the other way around. Overgods excepted.
>empower millions of worshipers
You're only channeling the power of your millions of worshippers into your thousands of clerics.

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>>24293894
It's actually worse than that, take a look at the page for Asmodeus on the latest playtest packet.

With a +7 to STR, even with a 20, he literally CANNOT break out of the chains.

>>24294009
How is Fenrir unstabble in 5e?

>>24294006
>Pack Tactics
>Druid
>Summon a swarm of insects
>Or a few harmless critters
This could be any combination of highly entertaining, terribly broken, and extensively caveat'd.

>>24294027
>To a maximum of +5

Ha, this is wonderful.

I really hope everyone involved in this project finally starves to death so we can chuck D&D off the bridge and forget about it.

>>24294018
MORTALS can create entire planes in 3e. Search the SRD for Genesis.

As for creating races, that sounds like something any wizard can have covered by level 16.

Empowering millions of worshipers is a trickier matter that depends on how many divine ranks the deity in question has, IIRC.

>>24294024
I sort of dig this.
No more all-powerful dickwads, true power comes in the form of proper armies.

>>24294026
Fenrir was capable of breaking every bond the Aesir tried on him as a mere feat of strength. It was not until they tried a magical rope whose sole property was that it could bind anything and not be broken that Fenrir was restrained. In 5e, Fenrir wouldn't have gotten past the first iron chain, let alone the iron chain with links the thickness of a man's torso.

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Asmodeus has Charisma 30 (+10 modifier) and no skills.

>• Hard (DC 20): Get an unruly crowd to move out of the way

>• Hard (DC 20): Badger allied soldiers into a fighting mood

>• Hard (DC 20): Goad a person into action

You have 1 minute to justify why the lord of the Nine Hells has a 45% failure rate to get a crowd to move out of the way, badger his own troops into a fighting mood, or goad someone into action.

>>24294034
That's a pretty big boost for one trait, and any party that can number six (even if some are non-combatants) should have every member take it.

>>24294046
Is it really any better for a level 6 human in 4e, WITHOUT ANY MAGIC ITEMS OR SPELLS, to have "a 60% chance of bursting out of iron chains, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor"?

>>24294045
>power in true armies
>45% to not get allied soldiers to attack

>>24294047
1)Take 10
2)He wouldn't need to get the crowd to move. Burn a few alive and the rest will get the message.

What a waste of feats.
You've optimised for 20 levels and you're still failing 3 times put of 4. At any skill you've optimised in.
Forget about whether that makes sense with oily ropes and barred doors. Ask if that makes sense as a system.
In any other D&D, each level you feel as though you're improving albeit slowly. But if you've played for 20 Levels, devoted your build to completing one task - and at the end of it all you're still fishing for twenties... How does that sound fun?

OP has made a superb point about how badly 5e is failing, and all you lot do is argue like autists about oiled ropes and doors so hard even demi-gods can't knock them down. I'm all for scaling back powers. I'm all for making 5e less "Super Heroic" and more "Heroic". But of a hero who devotes his life to climbing the impossible climb and knowing the most forbidden knowledge, who's spent HALF THE FEATS HE WILL EVER GET to be the best he can be is still failing 75% of the time... That's a problem with the system.

>>24293919
Here's a man who climbed a greased pole solo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YuRZzuyT-o

If you know anything at all about rope climbing, it should be obvious how climbing a greased rope ought to be easier than climbing a greased pole.

>>24294060
>1)Take 10

Actually, they removed the take 10 rule in 5e, because it wouldn't work with skill dice.

>>24294047
D&D devs can't into their own game.

>>24294055
With a ton of investment, that level 6 human has barely over a 50% chance to break mundane chain. This guy is trained for breaking shit. Probably the best ever.

>>24293575
DC 30 vs DC 20

Wut

>>24294076
They represent the same action in each game.

>>24294055

To be honest yes. I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons as a superhuman fantasy hero, rescuing maidens, slaying dragons, challenging the very gods themselves and such. I'd expect my level twenty barbarian or monk to treat mundane barred doors like a sheet of thick card if he or she so chose.

I think attempting ham-fisted 'realism' really goes against the spirit of the game here. There are other systems that can handle that.

>>24294055
Depends on the chain. If we're talking 1" links with a thickness of 1/4", then there's no problem here - that's well within the scope of what a real-world human can do. Hell, real-world humans can do that with STEEL chains, let alone iron.

As for being in a rush, threatened, distracted, and wearing chain armor, all of that ought to help the attempt, really. Adrenaline for the burst of strength, the chain armor spreads the load, and the distraction to keep your mind off of any physical discomfort brought on by the attempt.

>>24294061
indeed.

bunch of bloody contrary-pants babies in this thread.

its broken. Stop defending it you stupid fangirls.

>>24294082
4e makes it harder than it looks, because a Strength check normally gets no bonuses for Athletics training, Athletics bonuses, etc.

You need Kord's Force (despite the name, totally nonmagical) to roll Athletics instead of Strength.

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This is a human war chief.

Charisma 12.

Charisma modifier +1.

>• Hard (DC 20): Get an unruly crowd to move out of the way

>• Hard (DC 20): Badger allied soldiers into a fighting mood

>• Hard (DC 20): Goad a person into action

You have 1 minute to justify why a human war chief has a 90% failure rate to get a crowd to move out of the way, badger his own troops into a fighting mood, or goad someone into action.

>>24294055
Yes.

>>24294065
>If you know anything at all about rope climbing, it should be obvious how climbing a greased rope ought to be easier than climbing a greased pole.

Climbing a greased pole is easier than climbing an oiled rope.

You can spread your entire body weight around the pole, wipe off the grease, and grip it better.

The rope is all oily and slippery, its strands have absorbed the oil, and you can't wrap your entire body around the rope very well.

My god, this thread.

>Look at this. A level 20 character, almost a demi-god, can't climb a rope. This is not normal.
>Nay, it's normal. A demi-god shouldn't be capable to climb a rope.
>Climbing a rope is very hard, you know. You obviously never tried to climb a rope in real life.
>Can God climb a rope? Did you see God climb a rope? No? Then it's perfectly normal if an adventurer can't.

That's one of the most ridiculous argument I've never read.

>>24294127
This is why I hate 3.x and lower fans.

>>24294127
It's not just a rope, it's an OILED rope.

And the ranger with maximum Strength and two feats for climbing still pulls it off 1 every 4 tries.

If he tries it 4 times, he should be able to climb the oiled rope.

Asmodeus has only a +7 Strength modifier. He can't hit DC 30 even on a natural 20.

Doesn't it make you feel badass when you can do something that even a god can't do?

>>24294127
Only a few touched on the fact that its just shit for the SYSTEM anyway. The mechanics of it are fucked, regardless of what Gods and Heroes are or are not doing.

I hope they listen to OPs feedback, or we'll get 3.6.

>>24294122
1) You can't spread your entire body weight around the pole. You have only your arms and legs for leverage.

2) You can't "wipe the grease off" the pole once you're past the first foot or so - you just smear it around because you, too, are covered in grease.

3) Watch this. There's very little to do with rope climbing that is in any way impaired by the rope being oiled. In 3e terms, the rope being oiled adds MAYBE +5 to the climb DC because any more would be pants-on-head retarded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my38_RfsQyo

D&D: Oiled Rope Climbing simulator

>>24294136
>It's not just a rope, it's an OILED rope.
>And the ranger with maximum Strength and two feats for climbing still pulls it off 1 every 4 tries.
>If he tries it 4 times, he should be able to climb the oiled rope.

And... you are trying to argue that it's not ridiculous? Because you're making the opposite point, really.

>>24294088
You're absolutely right. It is Broken.

Even the argument of hamfisting realism into it doesn't hold up. Realistic systems still allow skill monkeys who invested half the character resources they've ever gained into a single skill to be competent even at that skill even at the hardest levels.

Take GURPS. Let's say a skill monkey puts on of his skills to 18, the absolute human maximum, no magic, no powers, not even Talents, just 18 made from raw stats and time invested in the skill. Something any mundane person with enough time can do. He now has to roll 18 or under on 3D6 under most circumstances. Apply -10 for an "impossible" task. He's rolling under 8 on 3D6 now. And that's before asking for any bonus from Equipment, him being more than a mundane human etc etc etc

Is /tg/ really telling me that a mundane file clerk in GURPS should be roughly equivalent to a level 20 D&D character in terms of ability to accomplish tasks...?

How can anyone say that's not broken to shit...?

>>24294047
Why would anyone ever trust the devil?

>>24294161
>How can anyone say that's not broken to shit...?

There is retards everywhere, my friend. We are on 4chan.

>>24294161
>impossible task
>any amount of success.

The amount of entitlement in the current generation of gamers is appalling.

>>24294161
its broken to the point that even if they fix it, I wont be buying 5th edition, or any other product from these folks.

that they can even put this down on paper, without warning flags popping up all over the inside of their pathetically little brains, shows they have no business in this business.

>>24294192
Well now you're just trolling.

>>24293757

Yeah, good point - it's not really teamwork when the Wizard is the only one capable of working at all and has to babysit all game.

>>24294192
"impossible" is a label.
A task the GM has allowed you to roll for bit doesn't think by rights it should be possible but has said "you can still try"

GURPS does say, BLUNTLY that if a task is truly impossible DO NOT ALLOW THE PLAYERS TO ROLL FOR IT.

Nice assumptions there.

>>24294197
To be fair, its a test. They are going to push things until they break.
Its broke. This is the part where they fix it, right?

Right, /tg/?

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>>24294192
A present arrived for you in the mail, special delivery!

>>24294227
Babbys first effort should not be this bad. All it shows is that they are blithering idiots, with a budget.

>>24294227
Nah. That's when they introduce D&D Next.5 at GenCon Indy 2014 and D&D 6 at GenCon Indy 2017.

>>24294227
You now realize we are a year into development.

>>24294083

Ham fisted realism was the *exact* reason why 3.5 was Caster Edition.

They really haven't learnt anything.

>>24294242
And they have gone on t say more than once that the core of the game is just about done.

>>24294136
>The BEST ROPE CLIMBER IN THE FUCKING WORLD
>IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD
>WHO IS AT THE MAXIMUM FUCKING LEVEL WITH NO FURTHER ABILITY FOR GROWTH
>has a 1/4th chance to climb a rope
>Meanwhile a Wizard at a quarter of the development as the uber-ranger can cast a spell and get a 100% success rate
Fucking Monte Cook.

>>24294258
They had that "hamfisted" in 2nd edition.
What made 3.5 caster edition was the "I should be able to do anything" mentality.

>>24294276
Some ropes just can't be climbed with a reasonable chance of success. Bypassing the rope should always be an option.

>>24294260
That's terrifying...

>>24294227
The idea of an open Beta is that players sort out the minor problems. It's like if they released a vidya on open beta, but the amount of pressure you applied to the analogue stick wasn't in any way indicitavie of how fast you ran due to 75% of the time your character using a "stumble like a flid" animation.

We shouldn't be poiting out GLARING FLAWS to the designers. We should be going "here's a typo" and "maybe this doesn't exactly work as you intended" not "The entire skill system is pretty much fucked guys"

>>24294276
Monte Cook.
Shit, you may be right...
This was doomed from the start.

>>24294281
Yes, because it's so unreasonable that having spent half of the feats your character will ever get on accomplashing a DC30 skill fails 75% of the time whilst the guy who used the wizard to deomstrate, how does Cook put it, "System Mastery" does it in seconds with a spell 100% of the time.

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According to the bestiary, a human commoner has a Charisma modifier of +0. Also according to the bestiary, Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has a Wisdom modifier of +6.

>Contest: Fast-talk or con someone (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Tell a convincing lie (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Persuade someone to do something (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Convince someone to back down from a confrontation (against Wisdom)

Aggressor wins a contested roll in the event of a tie, as usual.

http://anydice.com/program/2140

You have 1 minute to explain why a completely untrained human commoner has a 26.25% chance of fast-talking Asmodeus, conning Asmodeus, lying to Asmodeus, persuading Asmodeus to do something, or convincing Asmodeus to back down from a confrontation.

Meanwhile, a level 20 character with the highest Strength possible, the highest skill dice for Break an Object and Climb possible, Skill Focus (Break an Object), Skill Supremacy (Break an Object), Skill Focus (Climb), and Skill Supremacy (Climb) still has only a 1 in 4 chance of bursting out of iron chains, breaking down a door held by a heavy bar or a masterwork lock, or climbing an oiled rope.

>>24294305
Even by someone who's devoted half of the feats they will ever get into climbing things...?

Yeah, seems fair. And not at all indicative of a broken system.

>>24294258
Actually, 3.5 was Caster Edition because magic mooted the nonmagical classes at around level 6. At this point, any given Wizard had access to all the spells they needed to overcome a locked door, find and disable traps, and fly over anything that needed to be climbed.

3.5's skills were NOT realistic outside the fact that any given 6th level character could match or exceed real-world human records. By level 12, you had characters that could climb sheer walls with no handholds as easily as they could walk, all without the aid of magic. By level 20, you had characters that could slip through gaps narrower than the thickness of their own skulls as easily as they put on a pair of pants or play the alpine horn with such skill that they could turn everyone within 1d10 miles into a devoted, fanatical follower - gods included. While not technically a skill, through Bardic Knowledge a level 10 bard had decent odds of just happening to know a demon lord's true name simply because they heard the right rumor and knew how to know the difference between good info and bad.

3.5's skill system worked in large part because the batshit stuff a character could do with the skills scaled fairly well with the batshit stuff they could do otherwise. The fact that it was rendered moot by spellcasters is a separate issue entirely.

>>24294305

I don't know why your post triggered this thought, but...

You Have To Burn The Rope.

>>24294318
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9uk9IcoQ0w

>>24294276
>>24294317
In fact, he does it to the entire party.

We are level 20. I can't see how we are not permanently flying yet.

>>24294318
Sounds fine to me dude...

No seriously, I'm nearly pissing myself with laughter here. This is appalling.

>>24294276
You killed me. I hope you're happy.

>>24294332
Well played

>>24293622
So basically everyone is now a 2nd edition adnd fighter with a couple feats thrown in?

Wow what a fucking step back.

>>24294318
>You have 1 minute to explain why a completely untrained human commoner has a 26.25% chance of fast-talking Asmodeus, conning Asmodeus, lying to Asmodeus, persuading Asmodeus to do something, or convincing Asmodeus to back down from a confrontation.

So a completely untrained human commoner has a 26.25% chance of convincing Asmodeus to back down from the Blood War?

>>24294318
http://www.hauntedbay.com/history/jol.shtml
>According to the story, Stingy Jack, an Irish blacksmith and notorious drunk, had the great misfortune to run into the Devil in a pub. Jack invited the Devil to have a drink with him. True to his name, Stingy Jack didn't want to pay for his drink, so he convinced the Devil to turn himself into a sixpence that Jack could use to buy their drinks in exchange for Jack's soul. Once the Devil did so, Jack decided to keep the money and put it into his pocket next to a silver cross, which prevented the Devil from changing back into his original form.

>Jack eventually freed the Devil, under the condition that he would not bother Jack and not try to claim his soul for ten years. When the ten years had passed, Jack ran into the Devil as he walked down a country road. The Devil was anxious to claim what was due but Jack stalled. Jack thought quickly and said to the devil. "I'll go, but before I go, will you get me an apple from that tree?" The Devil thinking he had nothing to lose climbed the tree as Jack pointed to the choicest apple. Perturbed, the Devil climbed high into the tree after the apple Jack selected. When he was high up in the tree, Jack carved a sign of the cross into the tree's bark so that the Devil could not come down. Jack, very proud of himself made the Devil promise to never again ask him for his soul. Seeing no other choice the Devil reluctantly agreed.

>>24294318
>I AM ASMODEUS, LORD OF THE NINE HELLS, AND I AM HERE FOR YOUR SOULS AS FORTOLD!
That's not nice Asmodeus, lots of people here don't even worship gods. We're just going to the wall of the faithless later, you can pluck us out then.
>You know what, that's a good idea. Bye, have a nice life.
>Crawls back into hellpit

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Sure are a lot of crybabies in this thread.

>>24294356
Why did the Devil have to turn himself into a coin, instead of just filching a coin or summoning a coin?

>>24294356
That's both an uncommonly fast-talking commoner - no doubt he got his nickname in part from swindling other people into paying for his drinks - and an uncommonly dim devil.

>>24294370
Because the commoner made the 25% chance of convincing him to do it.

Man.
These 4th fanboys can't tolerate high level characters having any amount of difficulty in a task or having low level characters interact with endgame bosses for a meaningful story arc.

>>24294318
The human commoner convincing Asmodeus to back down has only a 27% chance.

He FAILS most of the time.

That makes sense to me. It isn't easy to convince the Lord of the Nine Hells to back down.

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>>24294369

>>24294332
Wouldn't using a fiddle by a skill check? Perform Fiddle?
So let's say a DC30 to use that, and the child is somehow level 20... Oh look, we dun gone full circle here, he's failing 75% of the time.

Great Lord Asmodeus has laid siege to the walls of your city for some reason...and there is but now one final trial before he enters and lays waste to the townspeople. Perhaps he will try to enter through the Pit of Despair. Climb the Oiled Rope and he might find himself in the Observatory. Break down the Barred Doors to get into the Shrine of the Silver Monkey. Release the monkey from its Iron Chains to unlock the Secret Passage to claim your prize. The choices are yours and yours alone.

And like every other kid on that show, he goes home empty handed

>>24294384
The human commoner has a 27% chance when he shouldn't have a chance at all. If the progress curve goes from an ordinary commoner having a 27% chance of success at swindling the lord of the nine hells to the best rope-climber that ever lived and ever will live having only a 27% chance of climbing an oiled rope then you may as well just ignore the skill system entirely because clearly, the modifiers and difficulties don't mean a goddamn thing.

>>24294400
Not if the lord of the nine hells is just another guy. A very strong and smart guy, but faillible like anyone else.

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>>24294400
Away with you logic, thou hast no power over this thread.

>>24293579
whats with this crap

why are you climbing out of your chains, dude, you said its a strenght check but calculated athletics

>>24294430
Took a feat for it.

>>24294430

>>24294091
>4e makes it harder than it looks, because a Strength check normally gets no bonuses for Athletics training, Athletics bonuses, etc.

>You need Kord's Force (despite the name, totally nonmagical) to roll Athletics instead of Strength.

>>24294400
27% is 27%.
That means any difficult task is calculated as a difficult task relative to the character in question.

>>24294430
Kord's Force

Actually I don't know that feat, but if it works like he wrote it, (Athletics to replace any SKILL CHECK) he cheated, because a STR test is not a Skill check, it's an Ability check.

Then again I think Athletics and Acrobatics are both candidates to slip bindings, so eh.

>>24294448
Kord's Force lets you roll an Athletics check in place of any Strength check.

>>24294420
I don't think you'd (as a lvl0 commoner) have a 27% chance to swindle a smart guy into whatever.

>>24294381
See Here. >>24294318
See Here. >>24294110
See Here. >>24294047
See Here. >>24294024

This isn't just an issue for high levelled adventurers. The high level adventurers are really just a symptom of a much deeper disease in the system.

They are all examples that highlight, not the fact that characters aren't powerful enough, but that the entire skill system as it stands is fundamentally and utterly broken.

At level 1 a commoner has a one in 4 chance of talking down The Devil His-Self. Just as standard with no trainging in the skills needed.

At level 20 the greatest climber who ever climbed has that same one in four chance against an oily rope having spent his entire adventuring career to get to that stage and spending half of all the feats he'll ever use to climb shit.

Dude.

The system is broken.

It is shattered.

It's in a billion tiny pieces shoved up monte cook's ass for his pleasure.

>>24294400
>The human commoner has a 27% chance when he shouldn't have a chance at all.

Why SHOULDN'T the human commoner have a 27% chance of convincing Asmodeus to back down for something?

Gods aren't infallible. They're still human at heart.

>>24293832
why is there an oiled rope to begin with? I mean, the only reason that people would hang an oiled rope over anything dangerous is because its a trap.

Are you telling me PCs should be immune to mundane traps early on?

>>24294456
Welp okay.
Where is this feat by the way? A Dragon Article?

>>24294420
There is no context in which the lord of the nine hells being just another guy makes any sense.

>>24294443
The level 1 commoner has a 27% chance of doing something that should be the stuff of legend - swindling Asmodeus.

Breaky McChainbreak, the level 20 adventurer that has dedicated every fiber of his being to being able to break chains, has a 27% chance of doing something well within the reach of real-world humans - breaking an ordinary iron chain.

The only way this makes sense is if all tasks in D&D-verse are always set at roughly a 1-in-4 chance of success no matter who's attempting them or how skilled they may be.

>>24294468
Stop it. You know it's retarded, stop pretending it isn't for the sake of trolling, ok?

>>24294477
I think it was in one of the books with skill powers?

>>24294482
>The level 1 commoner has a 27% chance of doing something that should be the stuff of legend - swindling Asmodeus.

http://www.hauntedbay.com/history/jol.shtml
>According to the story, Stingy Jack, an Irish blacksmith and notorious drunk, had the great misfortune to run into the Devil in a pub. Jack invited the Devil to have a drink with him. True to his name, Stingy Jack didn't want to pay for his drink, so he convinced the Devil to turn himself into a sixpence that Jack could use to buy their drinks in exchange for Jack's soul. Once the Devil did so, Jack decided to keep the money and put it into his pocket next to a silver cross, which prevented the Devil from changing back into his original form.

>Jack eventually freed the Devil, under the condition that he would not bother Jack and not try to claim his soul for ten years. When the ten years had passed, Jack ran into the Devil as he walked down a country road. The Devil was anxious to claim what was due but Jack stalled. Jack thought quickly and said to the devil. "I'll go, but before I go, will you get me an apple from that tree?" The Devil thinking he had nothing to lose climbed the tree as Jack pointed to the choicest apple. Perturbed, the Devil climbed high into the tree after the apple Jack selected. When he was high up in the tree, Jack carved a sign of the cross into the tree's bark so that the Devil could not come down. Jack, very proud of himself made the Devil promise to never again ask him for his soul. Seeing no other choice the Devil reluctantly agreed.

Regular human commoner swindling the Devil.

Rolled 4

Rolling to convince Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, to give me his job.

Someone archive this thread and send it to the 5e Dev team.

I'd love to see one of their number come here - cook especially - and try and justify their shit.

Bet they wouldn't have the balls.

>>24293872
>in 4th you start out as a superhero and end up as a god

this. In 4th edition, a first level group of characters has no sweat burning down a city and killing all inhabitants. A dragon is a valid level 1 encounter.

the game shoves the fact that you are already better than everyone else (which, lets face it, are just minions waiting for your wrath), and that you should go and battle unreasonable tough enemies that take hours to take down because neither you nor they die easily.

At least I for my part have not seen a horsesized creature getting hit with greataxes over a dozen times before it starts bleeding

>>24294469
Climby McOiledrope isn't an early-game PC, he's a level 20 adventurer, a man who has traveled far and wide climbing ropes all over the world, training under master rope climbers, seeking out elusive tomes instructing him on the techniques used by the gods themselves when they need to climb ropes, a man who has been known to awe entire cities with his rope-climbing prowess.

And he has a 75% chance of falling to his death in an obvious trap because he can't climb a mundane oiled rope all that well.

>>24294496
>Regular human commoner swindling the Devil.
You mean, the stuff of legends?
So, by your logic, 1 in 4 commoners in the D&D 5e universe have a copper piece that's actually the devil in their pocket...?
That's some fucking legend...

>>24294457
I doubt it's swindle him "into whatever". It's making him believe a lie, or tricking him into something that could make sense.
Just like a successful persuasion check won't convince someone to kill himself just because you asked.

>>24294482
>There is no context in which the lord of the nine hells being just another guy makes any sense.
So you keep repeating. And yet gods and devils in mythology and literature get tricked by common mortals all the time.

>>24293802
>Show me someone, anyone in the world who can climb up an oiled rope even 25% of the time.
Show me someone who can shoot fireballs from his fingertips and you have a point.

It's pretty laughable that you're fighting Gods in hand-to-hand combat, but you can't climb a greased rope.

>>24294496
Oh look! A legend. That's already been posted in this thread. That features someone who is clearly more cunning than a level 1 commoner swindling what is more likely an imp pretending to be Asmodeus than the devil himself in D&D terms.

>>24294510

That's why adventurers only deal in gold pieces.

>>24294381
4e fanboi's just buttmad that new edition will show up all the flaws in their animu edition.

People only like 4e because it's the edition they grew up with.

>>24294507
>eeking out elusive tomes instructing him on the techniques used by the gods themselves when they need to climb ropes
Well there's his problem, the gods have no idea how to climb a rope either!

>Dungeons and Dragons

Well theres your problem.

>>24294515
No, there are gods and devils in mythology and literature that get tricked by EXCEPTIONAL mortals. The mere fact that the mortals are operating on the same field as gods and devils and not failing immediately is proof of the fact that they're exceptional.

>>24294521
See here. >>24294462
The issue is nothing to do with power. It's to do with a total lack of scaling or internal consitency.

>>24293917
>You start out as a superhero, and end up as a god.

And did anybody have a problem with this?

Speaking of 4e, one thing always annoyed me.
That at level 2 I was fighting Dragons.

But even with all the specialization I could muster, I was still only able to break 12m/s if I spent an action point.

Useless of course, but I wanted to go fast.

>>24294545
To be fair, they were young, Large-sized dragons no bigger than a horse.

And even then, a young white dragon, the weakest of the weak, is still a level 3 solo, a formidable challenge.

>>24294545
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon

A young white dragon in 3.5 is CR 4, well within the CR range of level 2 characters.

>>24294528
Mah nigga. Reading this thread is making me want to bust out Legends of Anglerre and use it to rock an Eberron campaign.

HOW CAN YOU BE SKILLFUL AT BREAKING THINGS. WHY IS BREAK OBJECT EVEN A SKILL.

Seems like 5th edition is 3rd and 4th's bastard child who was raised by their unstable alcoholic uncle, AD&D.

>>24294580
this man gets it

>>24294580
Sunder.

>>24294559
>>24294571
That...kinda wasn't the point.
If you specialize only a little bit, your level 4 character will still be beaten by top humans in a hundred meter dash.

>>24294580
This is one of the most retarded posts I've seen all night.

Its like asking how someone can be skillful at punching people.

>>24294580
You must learn to channel the ripple through your palm. Only then can you roll a d8 instead of a d6.

>>24294577
Oh, we've already had a thread on Anglerre's rules ridiculousness:

http://www.fuuka.warosu.org/tg/thread/S23540340

>>24294581
Don't forget the malnourishment, the anti-intellectual homeschooling, and the incest-rooted birth defects.

>>24294599

...But "Punch People" isn't a skill...

>>24294580
>HOW CAN YOU BE SKILLFUL AT BREAKING THINGS. WHY IS BREAK OBJECT EVEN A SKILL.

Shaolin monks train how to break shit, dude.

>>24294599
HEY DOOR HAVE A MACE. HEY CHEST AXE IN THE FACE. HEY WOODEN TABLE FUCK YOU BELLY FLOP. WHERE DOES THIS REQUIRE SKILL.

>>24294623
How much training does a demolition worker require in order to demolish houses properly and safely?

>>24294638
since when did adventurers do things properly and safely?

>>24294530
Even if that was true and not a completely circular argument, mythological gods are beings capable of astounding feats, moving mountains, turning off the sun, laying waste to armies.

This Asmodeus is not a millionth of a mythological god. If an exceptional mortal can trick one of them, then a lucky mortal who somehow got an audience with Asmodeus should have a shot at tricking him too.

>>24294623
>trying to break a door with a mace
Enjoy having your mace stuck in a door.
>Axe in the chest
Is a combat roll.
>Wooden table belly flop
How obese are you that you break sturdy wooden tables with your bulk?
>why does this require skill
Same reason we needed sunder for weapons. This is the same shit but with wider applications. The problem is that because Next Characters get so few skill points it's not worth investing in and because the skill system is so broken, even masters of breaking shit aren't very good at breaking shit.

>>24294638
About
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nrCvjg6nsI
this much

>>24294638
Are explosives in dnd? And are you in places where these explosives could potentially kill thousands?

>>24294609
Anglerre has its issues, but none anywhere near as glaring as this and most are fairly easily handwaved since they're mostly related to the disparity between powers skills and the issues that aren't to do with that have to do with disparity between specific stunts in non-powers skills.

This? This thread is demonstrative that one of the core mechanics of D&D Next is fundamentally broken. In Anglerre terms, this would be like letting starting characters just put all their skills at +4 and having the peak of skill development be at +5.

>>24294651
And by that logic every one in four people who got an audience with the devil are able to trick it?
See, it's fine to say some mortals can get lucky with the devil.
But not one in every four.

>>24294652
I meant chest as in treasure chest.
> implying I cant pull my mace out and continue hitting the door.
Sunder has a different application. Break object sounds like its used for breaking objects that arent moving/alive. Sunder always applied to weapons and armour in a combat sense no?

>>24294653
>Not posting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs6BiPwqBU0
I am disappointed in you, Anon.

>>24294068
>>Actually, they removed the take 10 rule in 5e, because it wouldn't work with skill dice.


Instead, it's assumed that a task automatically succeeds at max roll if you sit down and take the time to do it right. It'll take much longer, though.

>>24294651
>This Asmodeus is not a millionth of a mythological god.
And that's a fundamental problem if that's where D&D Next's power level peaks. At least 3.5 let you meaningfully progress from a level 1 schmuck living in fear of overly-large groups of housecats to an epic-leveled entity capable of spinning off entirely new realities and challenging traditional definitions of "possible". Beings like Asmodeus were allowed to be terrifying entities of absurd power, legitimate challenges to entire worlds all on their own, and they weren't even close to the top of the pecking order of Shit PCs Can Beat Up.

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>>24294681
That's so hereticall of you darling.

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According to the bestiary, Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has an Intelligence modifier of +8. Asmodeus also has no skills, because surely, a single line for trained skills would simply be *too much*.

According to the DM guidelines, the kind of Intelligence check it takes to identify a unique monster is...

>Formidable (DC 30): Identify a unique monster

In D&D Next, favorable circumstances give you advantage on a roll, meaning you roll twice and take the higher result. You never, ever gain a straight-up numerical bonus for a circumstantial benefit like this.

However, even with advantage, since the DC for the Intelligence check in question is 30, Asmodeus can never identify a unique monster.

You have 1 minute to justify why Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has no idea who the other archdevils like Mephistopheles and Belial are, let alone what they look like or do.

Perhaps he has Alzheimer's?

>>24294679
Enjoy having your axe stuck in the chest.
How do we resolve how well you do at pulling your mace out and hitting the door again? How do we resolve if your masisve bulk can truly sunder a table...?

Why, we roll for it. And look, we have a skill for that. A mechanical means whereby characters who want to break stuff well, can improve as they advance in levels! (well, that's the idea. But it doesn't work that way as this thread demonstrates)

Yes, Sunder is for weapons and armour in combat, but it was also for inanimate objects. This is just sunder under a new name, and rather than being it's own little set of rules, it's just a skill check. Nice and simple. I like it.

Shame the way skills scale is shit.

>>24294671
He probably has a mind-reader or two in his crew to fact-check.

>>24294711
Great. Now 5e's Lords of Hell must all go around wearing name badges....

>>24294711
Jesus Christ and I thought Bear Lore was bad.

>>24294711
By that logic no PC can ever recognize the other members of his party. In every edition of D&D since 3E.

>>24294711
Every time you do an example like this I piss myself laughing at how absurd it all is..

>>24294743
So, what, in order for the devil to be comperant in his primary narrative function - fooling weak willed mortals - he needs a magical mind reading helper...

Just admit the skill system is broken and move on, kid.

>>24294762
>PCS
>Unique Monsters
Pick one.

Asmodeus is by definition working with unique monsters. So strictly RAW, he doesn't know who the fuck he works with.

Yes, of all these examples so far, this is the one that pushes credibility the most. But it's still serves to highlight how fucked the skill system is.

>>24294775
Oh, he's competent. Just not infaillible.
What he is, is a king. Not a powertripping overlord sporting ULTIMATE COSMIC POWAH. Just a smart and powerful king. And his kingdom is hell.

He has to take the same precautions as any other king if he doesn't want to be tricked.

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>>24294775
>So, what, in order for the devil to be comperant in his primary narrative function - fooling weak willed mortals - he needs a magical mind reading helper...

And in case you missed it earlier:

Asmodeus has Charisma 30 (+10 modifier) and no skills.

>• Hard (DC 20): Get an unruly crowd to move out of the way

>• Hard (DC 20): Badger allied soldiers into a fighting mood

>• Hard (DC 20): Goad a person into action

You have 1 minute to justify why the lord of the Nine Hells has a 45% failure rate to get a crowd to move out of the way, badger his own troops into a fighting mood, or goad someone into action.

>>24294796
>Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells
>Not an antagonist on the cosmic scale

Wat.

>>24294796
A king who gets duped by every one in four people?
Seems reasonable that he'd remain king of anywehre for all of a day. Much less hell.

>>24294711

>You have 1 minute to justify why Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has no idea who the other archdevils like Mephistopheles and Belial are, let alone what they look like or do.

I wonder more what happens when he catches sight of himself in the mirror.

>>24294821
Coca Cola.
Out my nose.

>>24294818
Four people tell you four moderately-believable lies. Just by looking at them, you manage to figure out that three of them are lying, from their expressions and demeanor alone.
Most people, and most kings, wouldn't be able to do near that well.

>>24294843

Most people are not motherfucking Satan.

>>24294796
>Oh, he's competent.
No, he's not.>>24294805
He fails almost as often as he succeeds.
That's retarded.
And one in every four commoners could convinve him to just give them control over hell.
That's even more retarded.
And as >>24294808 says...
>Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells
>Not an antagonist on the cosmic scale
You've just gone FULL retard.

>>24293993
okay now we need something like wfrp 2e's slaughter margin. how many commoners does it take to bring down a monster.

>>24294276

You mean Mike Mearls.

>>24293943
no, it's inconsistent if the man who has such feeble limitations can kill gods. Alternatively, the gods are super weak, and the Big Bad should've been a barred, reinforced door surrounded by large, sheer chasms and oiled rope minions. That way, the triumph of the party would be more impressive.

>>24294821
Asmodeus Diary
>dear diary: today when I woke up and went to bathroom to refresh myself before starting the day, while I looked into my mirror I saw other devil there, I have no idea what he was doing there but after threating him with few fireballs he was gone and I proceeded further with my plans of world and heaven domination
Just a regular day in hell.

>>24294843
But he has wisdom bonuses, so yes, he IS supposed to be able to do that well.

>>24294843
Four ordinary people, unaccustomed to lying as they rarely have reason to do so, come to you and tell you that each of them have the rights to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge and they'd happily let it go for five bucks.

You, being a being of supernatural cunning, an entity that has spent literally eons brokering deals of all kinds and eventually became lord of a realm in which you are beset on all sides by the most devious liars in the cosmos, will happily believe that one of them does, in fact, have the rights to sell you the Brooklyn Bridhe.

>>24294879
Bravo.

>>24293954
>devil lord of the nine hells, commands legions of magical entities, cast spells, can hypnotise with a glance
>dumb him down so he is 'realistic'

yeah, no, this sounds really stupid

>>24294869
And yet even with the wisdom bonuses, he can't.

The system is broken.

>>24294161
a mundane file clerk shouldn't have any skills that are level 18 in GURPs. Thats grand master level skill right there. like King Arthur would have a 16 in swords. Robin Hood might have a 17 in bows.

>>24294879
I don't know shit about 4E - there are no difficulty modifiers for how believable the lie is ?
So telling someone your name is John when it's actually Jim is just as difficult as telling him you're the avatar of Pelor ?

>>24293993
>It not that worse than my monk
Holy FUCK!!!

>>24294907
Your level of points in a skill is restricted to 18 max and how much time you spend training the skill.

To use the example of someone who's trained their whole life to be a rope climber, in D&D or in GURPS would admittedly have been better than saying a "file clerk".

Still, the point remains that at absolute maximum human competence of 18, people can still pull off the most difficult tasks the system allows for, before allowing for gear, magic or beyond human competence. GURPS is realistic.

Based on this thread, 5e D&D allowing for maximum conpetence, being beyond human, equipment, etc etc etc, still leaves characters who should be amazing at given tasks as still being inept. The Lord of Hell can't command his own armies and arguably doesn't recognise himself in the mirror - and can be fooled one time in four by a dirt farmer who claims to want to sell him the Brooklyn Bridge.

Next's Skill System is Broken, it's attempted to make things more "realistic" and failed utterly. Hence the GURPS comparison where it's realistic but the system still allows for competence if you've invested time into being the best you can be at a skill.

>>24294917
We're talking 5e. Not 4th. Those modifiers regarding believability have already been taken into account. Yes, it's retarded. That's the point of this thread.

>>24294968
Asmodeus still succeeds at commanding his armies 55% of the time, more than half the time.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to marshal an army of devils?

>>24294917
You mean 5e.

Hey OP, what are the odds an asmodeus vs a lvl 1 PC highly trained in lying?

>>24294979
exactly as hard as marshalling a mortal army?

>>24294979
>how hard is it to marshal an army of Lawful beings

>>24294979
You're happy that one of the most competant commanders of the armies of hell, just about half of the time barks an order and his armies just shit their twiddling their thumbs...?

>>24294977
>Those modifiers regarding believability have already been taken into account
Were they ? I don't see >>24294318 mentioning any modifiers.

>>24294979
isn't he supposed to be their immortal, eternal leader?

it makes no sense for him to have a possibility of failure in the first place

>>24294979
Now I can't shake the image of Asmodeus as that dragonite dad meme.

"So, rampaging hordes of devils, who's up for waging war against the heavens? I even made some pizza rolls we can eat on the way..."

"FUCK OFF, WANKER."

"Oh... ok..."

>>24294979
So half the time his army rebels.
And all the time he can't recognise himself in the mirror or his fellow generals.
And if the opposing army is made up of four commoners selling him the Brooklyn Bridge, odds are good that his conquest of the mortal realms are over...

Yeah, there's absolutely no problems or issues with that system.

>>24294721
Have you ever split wood? Im sure the barbarian with 18 strongth can pull his axe out no problem.
We can take the fat little dwarfs' weight and make a roll with that. Maybe its just the way I DM.

I just dont see the point. maybe its the way this skill is presented.

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The more I read of this thread, the harded I laugh.
Keep going guys this is far more entertaining than anything.

>>24295035
>I just dont see the point.
Of having a rule designed to resolve breaking things? When you youself have listed several occasions when it would be useful...?

>Have you ever split wood? Im sure the barbarian with 18 strongth can pull his axe out no problem.
Maybe he can. Good thing we have a mechanical means to roll for it, eh?
>We can take the fat little dwarfs' weight and make a roll with that. Maybe its just the way I DM.
Maybe. Maybe you prefer to argue everything and slow the game to a crawl than just have a simple skill check that achieves the same thing. Different strokes I suppose.

And here I thought that the way skills escalated in 3.5/Pathfinder was bad, but this shit it fucking ridiculous.

To be fair, there are glaring problems in 3.5 as well.

example would be opposed attribute tests.

a contest of strength between a peasant with 8 str and a circus-strongman with 18.

-1 vs +4
variable is a d20......

I m sure you can see where I m going with this.

stuff going on in this thread does take it to a whole different level of retarded though.

>>24295008
In which case we're almost at the point where the defenders just go "so what if the system is broken, that's what DM fiat is for!!!"

When you disocover that you need more fiat than you have system, it's usually down to system bloat. NExt isn't even out yet and it's skill system is already fundamentally broken to the point that the only way to fix it is to fiat everything away and house-rule the fuck out of it.

Here's a better idea. Don't bother with next. The designers are fucking clueless.

>>24295090
No one's saying other systems were perfect.

What we are doing is point out that this system isn't just "a bit off", it fails fundamentally.

>>24295102
So wait.
Just to be clear.
Those modifiers don't exist in the system ?

This looks like the continuation of a theme - 3.5 had a very wide range of ability, housecat to invulnerable tarrasque-before-breakfast monstrosities. It also included more abstract abilities, wish and such as well as more out of combat stuff.

4th scaled that *down* - even with the godly stuff going on you're not as dangerous as you were in 3.5 at high levels of 4th. This may or may not be a bad thing, not a judgement.

5th is taking this to a logical conclusion of their focus group information - people enjoy playing between about levels 4 and 7 the most. So just stretch the entire game to feel like that! Hence why the abilities of the foes at level 20 *feel* like it's level 7 and Asmodeus has to use up a wish to break open any chains he enocunters....

>>24295115

They do. To an extent. In the form of advantages and disadvantages. An advantage is 'Roll twice, take the best' and a disadvantage is 'Roll twice, take the worst'. They cancel each other and (iirc) can stack to get stuff like 'Roll 3 times, take the best'

However, even 5 000 000 advantages for 'It's YOU retard' can't let Asmodeus identify himself in a mirror.

>>24295120
also use his wish to figure out that his butler is in fact a baatezu, like every other sentient in his home plane pretty much.

>>24295115
>Those modifiers don't exist in the system ?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
You're still missing the point, but whatever.
Please go ahead and post a table about convincing lies and their modfiers from 5e, it still won't change the fact the system is broken.

>>24294047
Because he doesn't know how to say "please"

>>24295090
The Circus Strongman will likely have some form of relevant feat or class ability for this sort of thing. Probably a feat that gives him a straight up +4 bonus to his Strength check and the ability to take 10 on it and maybe a class ability that gives him a +2 synergy bonus to his Strength check as long as he has 5 ranks in Bluff or Perform (most strongman acts generally featured not-particularly-strong men using tricks of leverage and, more often, fake weights).

But yes, attribute rolls (opposed or not) are generally fucked up, in large part for the fact that they didn't scale as well as skills. The rogue could slip his bonds easily with Escape Artist, but the barbarian would have to wait more than a few levels for his Strength to get anywhere close to the point where he could break his chains unless he specifically optimizes to be able to do exactly that.

So how do 5e grapple rules work? What's the odds of a commoner being able to drag Asmodeus to the impossible to escape prison?

>>24294711
To Asmodeus, Devils are normal and PC's are Monsters.

>>24295155
Sneak up to him, put iron chains on him.
CONGRATULATIONS
You just caugh Lord of Nine Hells, do you wish to name your Pokemon?

>>24295035
I've split wood before.
Jesus christ. Oiled ropes? Fuck that, you try doing a clean goddamn split.

We don't even cut into those half-logs anymore. We just bash the logs until they splinter and crack. Sometimes the reverse of the axe head is more useful.

Once we get to the real thick stuff we just go put fuel in the chainsaw.

>>24295131
lol.

so in 3.5/pathfinder numbers, this would mean that if buff mchugebig with STR 18 wanted to bust down a door with DC 25, he could never succeed, no matter whether ran at it, used a battering-ram, had help from 10 people, or used a crowbar to lever it open?

cause all those advantages just let him roll more dice right, and choose the best? So no matter how many times he rolls, a d20+4 isnt gonna beat dc 25.

yeah this mechanic sure isnt broken in any way at all.

I say let them publish it, dont send feedback, and let them dig their own graves. Hopefully they go bankrupt because they fucking deserve it.

So far it feels like they took e6, and stretched it out over 20 levels.
I love it, yet I am conflicted.

Besides didn't they start out with just ten levels, but people got buttmangled that it wasn't 20?

>>24295155
Why do that?
You just need 4 commoners with basic iron chains to convince him that "these are very fashionable and you'd look wonderful in them!"

Odds are good, he'd then he trapped forever in unbreakable chains. Now we just need to build a prison around him made of mirrrors. At least he'll think he has company.

>>24295161
I shall name him 'Modi' - what tricks does he already know?

>>24293560
>Break an Object
Wait, wait.

Break an Object is a skill, rather than just a straight skill check?

You don't need to fucking TRAIN to break things. You break things by applying force on them, which doesn't exactly require a lot of skill.

What the shit is this?

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>>24294980

Well, the paladin is the only class so far that uses Charisma for any class features, so let us go with a paladin.

15 is the highest you can buy an ability score up to under Next/5e's point-buy. Add Charisma +1 for being a human or a lightfoot halfling, and another Charisma +1 for being a paladin...

The best you can scrounge up at level 1 is a paladin with Charisma 17 and a Charisma modifier of +3. For their four skills, each at a pitiful skill die of +1d6, let us pick out Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade, and Sense Motive. For their single feat, let us choose Unflappable:

>Unflappable
>You never let anything bother you, and always manage to put on a good face even when the odds are stacked against you.
>Prerequisite: Charisma 11 or higher
>Benefit: You ignore the effects of disadvantage when making Charisma checks.

Disadvantage makes you roll twice and take the lower result. According to the DM guidelines, the DM is supposed to give you disadvantage whenever your idea for a roll is terrible. Disadvantage never stacks.

>Disadvantage: Not every idea is a good one. A character might try to win the prince’s favor by bragging about all the bandits he or she slew, not realizing that the prince is an avowed pacifist. If an idea backfires on a player, apply disadvantage to the ability check or attack.

So, with Unflappable, no matter how poorly-worded the argument is, no matter how outlandish the lie is, no matter how outlandish the circumstances are, our paladin ignores the "roll twice and take the lower result" effect of disadvantage.

Our paladin is at 1d20+1d6+3 for Bluff, Intimidate, and Persuade versus Asmodeus's 1d20+6 for Wisdom. How does our paladin fare?

http://anydice.com/program/2141

Our paladin has a 54.63% chance of convincing Asmodeus to give up his position as Lord of the Nine Hells.

>>24294711
That's no more absurd than being able to burn a fire elemental in 4e.

>>24295181
sorry, ability score check, not skill check. my mind is so blown by that I wasn't paying attention to what I was saying.

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>>24295162
Not to mention there's obvious more advanced "breaking stuff" applications than chopping wood.

>>24295170

Pretty much.

It's not a terrible idea, in concept. It helps keep chance a factor even with highly skilled people. However, it has ended up not lining up with the math at all.

>>24295181
Why don't people read threads they comment on?

So in 5e Asmodeus has been transported to this world to escape a lost battle. Now he's running out of magic and takes up a job at DnDonalds to work his way back up to being Lord of all Evil.

>>24295182
More paladins should stop smiting everything they detect and take up trying to talk to evil creatures and work out their problems.
This is a rather creative fix to that.

>>24295170
>Hopefully they go bankrupt because they fucking deserve it.

No, hopefully Hasbro tells WotC to sell the D&D intellectual property to another company and fire everyone working on D&D so that the company can focus on MTG.

>Playing a fantasy game
>Expecting to be epic and demigod level tier
>Can't break a door, not my bear companion

Well, I'm out, I can't bear it.

>>24295175
hahahahahahahahah

yeah and this guy is super smart.

makes you wonder what average folk are like in 5th.

>>24295195
Because this thread is super fucking long.

>>24295182
>Our paladin has a 54.63% chance of convincing Asmodeus to give up his position as Lord of the Nine Hells.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

>>24295223
At level 1!

>>24295216
What is "Find"?

>>24295182
You continue to be a source of comic gold.
Yet, each time I laugh the tragedy of NEXT is highligted to me...
Tis a bittersweet thread indeed...

Now i want to run a campaing in this system and make fun of the system.

>Commoner swindling demons
>Asmodeus fail to recognize self
>etc, etc...

Any other lulzworthy example or suggestion for this?

>>24295195
I did read it. That one thing is mindblisteringly stupid enough that I felt deserved it's own comment.

>>24295182
So, how does our Unflappable Bluffadin fare against foes more in line with his level? And for that matter, How would Bluffy McBluffadin, Level 20 Liar for Good fare against Asmodeus?

>>24295182
it boggles the mind that they increased the variability beyond d20. d20 was already too much on a system that basically uses level as a base, where 20 is sorta the max. Having a variable that allows a lvl 1 to occasionally beat a lvl 20 at skill they have both put 1 rank per level into, is wrong. This just makes it worse.

>>24295182
So what you're telling me is the next is the perfect edition for playing a paladin that fights evil by seducing it?

>>24295223
>>24295230
Gentelmen, behold the result of one years worth of games development and open source play testing.

Truly D&D Next is not only the System our Hobby Deserves, but the System we need!!

If nothing else it could end up toppling FATAL for the title of Worst System Ever.

>>24294821

I imagine it would go something like this

Azmodeus walks into bathroom looks at mirror
>>Who's that handsome devil
>>Caught behind glass are you
>>Our love can never be
Azmodeous passionately tongues mirror

>>24295244
How did you miss that someone already posted your exact comment then...?

>>24295182
I read that as unfappable.

the unfappable paladin.

someone hasnt seen fullytanks work.

>>24295245
Do you really need a level 20 paladin to do the job when you can just send in two level 1 paladins?