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>>25776534
Sadly, this is the only other image I have.

>>25776534
I seem to remember reading something about engineers playing D and D arguing about getting out of a cell with peroxide and mixing it with other chemicals he happened to be carrying around. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

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>>25776587
Yeowch. I'll have to remember this one.

Speaking of fucked up traps, have this.

>>25776576
Yeah, from what I have heard chemistry, as we know, doesn't work the same way in D&D worlds as it does in ours and sci-fi worlds. Look at the inner planes, everything is made of energy/matter from one of those planes. So salt is salt because it is made of salt energy/matter, not because of its atomic structure.

>>25776696
>salt energy damage
How weird.

>>25776722
It is weird, but this explanation was made to foil chemists, and other people who know their shit from ruining the game for everyone else. If they want make bombs they have to put points in alchemy like everyone else.

>>25776672
a way way way way more obvious and harder to spot solution that is guarenteed to be effective is to simply put real regular rope but tie it such a manner that it would be unable to hold the weight of the person. They jump, grab the rope, and fall down WITH the rope into the spiked pit.

only a complete nutter would jump to an unknown rope in such a situation. You should ALWAYS first pull the rope to you and test it for holding capacity before taking the swing.

>>25776534
perpetual motion machines powered by decanters of water set to high release rate.

turn a high level party into stone then shrink them to smuggle them into a warded area for assassinations.

Everything to do with
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm
Shrink a forest fire, or a lake, or boulders. put all of them into a bag of holding. cast overlad flight. Fly 10,000 feet over the enemy and turn the bag upside down. Everything returns to full size when it hits the ground.

>>25776672
incredible.

I don't have a fancy picture guys, or paint skills. But I used to play a geomancer/ranger.

I'd spend my off days putting exploding glyphs on arrows. You can guess the rest.

>>25776576
I remember Al Kapown used peroxide with some kind of precious metal to make napalm bombs.

Oh yeah, look up Al Kapown on suptg. Right up your alley OP.

There is always the peasant railgun

>>25776534
This entire goddamn thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252794

It _is_ crazy engineering.

>>25776810
Fuck yeah. I'd do this with Psionic Glyph of Warding, because it has no material component. Stick it on ammo, rocks, melee weapons/the monk's fist wrappings, etc.

>>25776898
Heh, exploiting flaws in the world. Like chicken infested bugs.
There is pun pun. And there is a 2 handed rogue that gets literally infinite attacks per round due to exploiting some other rules bugs. Oh, and of course crazy celerity shenanigans and contingencies.

>>25776921
that is a thread containing nothing but a long list of CUSTOM classes you have to houserule into the game. Not breaking the raw.
It is an awesome thread but not applicable.

>>25776534
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm

Spend time filling a book with explosive runes; say 1000 copies. Throw it into an enemy's square, cast dispel magic on it after it lands, willingly fail your opposing dispel roll causing all of them to explode for 6000d6 damage in a 10 foot radius.

Or, make explosive runes the size of a mountain. Some reads them from several miles away, the explosion it creates has a radius equal to the distance between the reader and the runes.

>>25776942
What is punpun?

>>25777033
Something that doesn't quite work the way people think it works.

>>25777047
Omnicificer, on the other hand, prevents Pun Pun from getting the opportunity to exist in the first place, and has literally infinite stats, rather than just scaling over time.

>>25777047
Gee thanks, I full understand it now.

>>25777208
Basically, it's a combination that allows the character to increase in power over time, with little to no effort other than casting some spells, the problem comes from the fact that it's based on a spell that only affects humanoids, and you have to cast the spell on your familiar which cannot be a humanoid.

My party's bard has this weird steam powered contraption (which apparently has a 15% chance of exploding if she kicks it into overdrive) and a noisemaker that's basically one of those cymbal-clapping monkey toys. She also was able to determine the weak points in a dam we were trying to destroy

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

>>25777238
there are humanoid familiars. Heck you can have a human as a familiar.
also
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm
>A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
Familiars have an explicit override for creature types.

Declare it nonfunctional via however the fuck I please.

Problem solved.

>>25777238
oh, and I also forgot, it explicitly requires a "scaled one" target not a humanoid target.
Which is why punpun is a kobold and his familiar is a snake.

Rope cuts itself and reveals the trap.

Have metal gauntlets handy.

>>25776942
Spend too much time on Celerity and you will simply see your death coming at you in a infinte variety of ways, faster and faster, until your sight is shorten to mere seconds and you die. Because the present killed you via a million in one chance making its mark.

Because you were looking into the future and not paying attention to the present.

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I always enjoy the players who ask if they can make Pun Pun. After they make their poorly built character they try to shift into the Sarrukh to grab Manipulate Form. It's then that I inform them that such a creature does not exist in my setting, we're not running Forgotten Realms, and anything from outside settings is banned unless I make an exception.

>>25777440
celerity doesn't let you see the future. It is an arcane spell that is an immediate interrupt that gives you a round to act; it is a time shenanigans spell.
That is, enemy fight stabs you, you declare that you are using celerity to interrupt his stab, its now your turn to act. You can use up celerity to perform as many actions like that as you have spell slots high enough level to cast celerity.

That is, you can carry some wands and scrolls and even a dagger and fill ALL your spell slots with celerity, and then cast 20 spells in one round

>>25777238
pun pun actually uses a whole list of broken things, not just one. It is a collection of the greatest most broken exploits. You need to repair a dozen different bugs in DnD to block it. Especially because there are different versions of it (with more advanced versions requiering an ever lower level. First release was 11th level. The release I linked was 5th level. There are several new releases that can perform an ascension at 1st level through several different bugs in the game)

>>25777492
someone actually tried to make a pun pun in your game? that is rather antisocial of them.

My favorite solution to that is "the moment you attempt it you get smote by pun pun, who deemed you a threat to his power"

>>25776996
>>25776996
Somebody had autoscrying fro and excessive concentration of Boom Runes.

They go off in your face.

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>>25777572

He'd never played in one of my games before but he'd heard my somewhat deadly reputation. His solution was to try and powergame. Which I always consider a fun challenge. His next few characters tried to exploit various races, classes, and special abilities and a majority of them wound up being killed by these mysterious sorcerers who always seemed to have just the right combination of spells and magic items, yet were pretty low level.

His pixie assassin was hilariously killed by three 3rd level sorcerers.

>>25777548
>>25777548
Same thing. I still kill those players via trolling Epic Wizard Selling Wares out of a Travelling Shop.

>>25777630
by definition they always reach the viewer. So if he scried on them from half a continent away he still dies... it just might be that he took out half the planet with him.

>>25777646
>three 3rd level sorcerers.
Those things are terrifying. Heck just one can kill adult dragons on his own.

>>25777660
You are not supposed to have them in the game and then kill them with DM fiat. You are supposed to be a wise enough player to never even ask to play something so broken and a wise enough DM to never use it and if someone asks to play one, to simply outright tell them No!

>>25777678
>>25777678
Nope. It blows in the Maker's face as he starts making too many or too big.

Im stealing the idea from Anti-IED Electronic Warfare. Many times in Iraq and Afghanistan, Haji got blown up by his own shit as soon as his receiver for a signal was connected.

>>25777701
>>25777701
Get madder Faggot. Most everything is in the game. But if you annoy me greatly, I will "Reveal" certain logical conclusions.

You arent the first. You arent the last. The People in Power have seen, invented, and can counter/fix most bullshit herpy derpy shenanigans.


Its how they got there in the first place.

Although sometimes I just jack Inheritance cycle rules regarding Magic and Effort/Power and the consequences.

>>25777701
Eventually his players will learn the hard way.

>>25777838
>>25777838
Yes. Also because btard.
>>25777777

>>25777707
>Im stealing the idea from Anti-IED Electronic Warfare. Many times in Iraq and Afghanistan, Haji got blown up by his own shit as soon as his receiver for a signal was connected.
Which has nothing to do with the fact you are making up rules explicitly contradicting the actual terms of the spell.

>>25777741
>Get madder Faggot
I wasn't mad, I explained how to properly handle a potentially disruptive situation.
But from your juvenile response it seems you lack the maturity to handle it.

>>25777902
>>25777902
There is no magical innovation or possibility to counter? Cry even harder dickweed.
>>25777919
>>25777919
The proper way tp handel is to stomp on it with a big firm NO!

Works with kids, works with stupid bitches masquerading as women, works with neckbeards.

>>25777972
>There is no magical innovation or possibility to counter? Cry even harder dickweed.
what? You are just spouting gibberish now.

>The proper way tp handel is to stomp on it with a big firm NO!
Oh I get it, you are not only horrifically immature in incapable of discussing things like an adult.
you are also too fucking retarded to read.
>>25777701
>if someone asks to play one, to simply outright tell them No!]
Sperglord

>>25776722
>salt energy damage
>weird

Not really. Have you seen the giant slugs in pretty any D&D based game? Wizards would have come up with it eventually to get the damn things out of their giant cabbage gardens and shit.

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Have another nasty trap.

>>25778449
I wonder how many of these were made during the Vietnam War and were never stepped in, just sitting there, waiting for some poor shmuck to get stuck in. Like how landmines stick around for years after the wars they were intended for.

>>25776795
Shrink item has a size limit, unfortunately, though boulders are fair game.

Decanter-powered water wheels, or jet boats for that matter, are really cool.

Fabricate-based magic items reassembling stuff would be cool, if pricey.

I intend for a lyre of building to make an appearance at some point.

I need some epic wizard-tech, for when the party visit Nex in my PF game.

>>25776587
Ha this is a legitimate trap thats used in real life.

>>25778449
I had a DM once that loved these, so my characters always went up/down steps two at a time.

Never occurred to me to carry like, a poking stick or something.

>>25778042
>>25778042
Cry Hard Faggot 2:Cry Harder:Whiny Bitch Edition

Here's a good one: The Decanter of Endless Water rocket, equipped with infinite fuel. As long as magic still works in space, you could take multiple tons to orbit and beyond on a budget that a level-9 adventuring party could scrape together. Start your own space program!

(If there's no magic in space, though, you're fucked. Medieval technology just can't put together a workable spaceship without magic. Even if you could use magic to get it up there, there's no welding to make airtight seals, and no good telescope lenses either.)

>>25781143
Whoops, forgot to post the link:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/22070118/

Notable figures:

>exhaust velocity over a km/s
>21 kN of thrust
>infinite specific impulse
>infinite delta-V

>>25779245
>Permanency + Heat Metal on some metallic rods
>Decanter of Endless Water

Congratulations, you now have an infinite energy supply. Proceed to tell the laws of thermodynamics to go fuck themselves and get to work.

I've always toyed with the idea of Beartrap Armor.
Enemies that get close enough to grapple with you have to avoid setting off beartraps on shoulders, chest, back, outer thighs.
Is this as stupid as it sounds?

>>25781259
That's what powers the Decanter of Endless Water steam rocket, seen here:
>>25781170

>>25779446
As a sadistic DM, I used this a lot, until players got used to it and knew how to avoid them. They all walked on the edges of the steps instead.

So I went further, and created piano stairs: the step is sliding down but the edge is really a razor blade.

And no, I do not have a toe fetish.

>>25781428
Sounds to me you have the opposite of a toe fetish.
Sounds to me you have an intense hatred for all things toe or foot.
I was in a game once where there were literal blades of grass (re: Aeon Flux type shit), and you had to find a way across this whole field of it. If you tried stilts or anything, it just cut them up and you'd slowly have less and less stilt, and eventually reach the grass. The soles of boots weren't enough to stop the blades. A few people were smart enough to try levitating. Me? I smacked my horse in the arse, hopped on, and rode it as it ran across the field. Its horseshoes lasted half the distance. Its hooves lasted a little longer. After that, I was sitting on my shield and rowing with a fucking axe.
Anti-feet DM's are the bane of me.

>>25781492
>sitting on top of my shield and rowing with an axe

Honestly the smartest non-magical idea, assuming you were using a shield of material harder than the blades.

>>25781170
Wow, this is really neat. It's like Spelljammer meets Kerbal Space Program.

I kind of want to have my next game revolve around the adventures of the Greyhawk Air and Space Administration.

>>25781527
Steel shield, rounded. Looped my belt through the handles and over my legs (folded) so I was secured to it, then used my axe to row like it was a canoe. Blades were trying to cut it apart but couldn't, so I was more or less "sitting" on their blades, and not the ground. Made less resistance, so it wasn't a total torture trying to move myself across the field.
Sucks being the only non magic-user in the party, though.
They laughed their asses off in the next town, asking if I had a nice cruise.

>>25781492
Sounds like something I had to do myself once as a player.
The line "I retract the legs of the horse and drive it as a sledge" caused so much hilarity we had to stop one hour straight.

>>25781592
wat

That caught me off guard. So did you get to retract its legs, or did you have to chop them off?
Greentext bro.

What about economists? There is the well-known way to break 3.5's economy by purchasing 10-ft ladders.

>By 10-ft ladder for 5 copper
>Break it in half.
>You now have two 10-ft poles!
>A 10-ft pole sells for 2 silver.
>???
>PROFIT!

Hell, I'm really curious to see what a quantum physicist could come up with utilizing the magic system.

>>25781704
3.5s economy is horribly broken from the start. You want to play a medieval-tech game with a working economy, grab the GURPS sourcebook for that area and use it instead. (Seriously; the medieval-world sourcebook is so well researched that some college courses reference it, and GURPS splats are designed to be theoretically usable for system-agnostic purposes.)

>>25781618
>party is horseriding somewhere
>Me as a elfling on a pony, walking along a road
>a wild ambush appears!
>group dissolves in uncertainty, too much enemies to fight
>I choose the way left
>DM smiles: there's a ravine there. Your pony is running right into it. What do you do?
>Hence the line.
>hilarity ensues
>Pony is not going go-go-gadget-legs, you fall into the ravine
>use potion of levitation mid-air to avoid being killed
>use horizontal teleportation ring (don't remember the exact name) repeatidly until I grab a branch somewhere and lift me up
>turns out nobody looked for me all this time.

>>25781704
I always just assumed DM's would be smart enough to counter this shit.
>You want to sell me two ten-foot poles? Here's your two silver!
Try to repeat process.
>Sorry kid, I've got all the poles I need in my inventory. Have fun lugging those around with you wherever you go.

Nothing says the NPCs have to be dumb enough to fall for the broken system, yeah?

>>25781737
Ah-HAH! You clearly were not prepared for my diplomacy roll that will easily be in the mid-twenties!

I dilpomacize the merchant to take my ten-foot poles.

All of them.

>>25781704
>Buy a 10-foot ladder for 5 copper
>Remove the rungs
>Try to sell the two ten-foot poles
>"Sorry, but those holes from where the rungs used to be attached make them structurally weak. Nobody would want to buy those as ten-foot poles. Jackass."

>>25781734
>Pony is not going go-go-gadget-legs

I love you.
>Playing rogue, with charisma out the ass, and all points put into sneaking/hiding and charming/diplomacy
>Guard walks into room where I'm stealing papers from local lord, to have a record of his signature, to copy later
"HALT! WHO GOES THERE!"
>Nobody, I'm... just a lamp!
Put lampshade on my head.
>Roll bluff.
>Guard leaves.

>>25781753
Yeah, abusing stuff like that, and by above, is both annoying and hilarious.
>>25781800
Genius loophole.. until he diplomacizes you into re-thinking, and possibly making ten-foot twenty-holed flutes.

>>25781704
>cast Wall of Iron
>cast Fabricate
>crash metal markets at will

>find shitty, rocky field
>cast Stone to Mud
>let dry
>suddenly good farmland

>walk into starving village
>hose down field with Decanter of Endless Water/Create Water
>Mud to Stone
>Stone to Flesh
>starvation averted.

Not to even start with all the shenanigans you can get up to with the combination of Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Stone to Flesh and occasionally Passwall. Wizards are the best class for fucking around with.

>>25781828
Magic: Not because you have to. But because you CAN.

>>25781753
>>25781821
>What is a penalty to diplomancy for trying to convince the other party of something blatantly idiotic?

Aside from something no DM seems to have the balls to enforce, I mean.

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>>25781821
>possibly making ten-foot twenty-holed flutes.

>Roll diplomacy

My friend, have you not considered getting into the dijurido business?

>>25781852
If I recall it's a -10.

Which is laughable to a PC.

>>25781828
Some of the stuff that you can get up to with those specific spells is so neat that, in a low-magic system I'm working on, there's a special subclass that basically just has those spells.

>>25781852
Nothing official that I know of, though there is this:
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

>>25781861
Step one: You make the dijuridos.
Step two: I sell them to local markets, troubadours, bards, etc.
Step three: ?????
Step four: Economic collapse.

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>>25781926
Step five: I laugh my tits off because I've already converted all my gold into property and bitches.

>>25781946
You remind me of the babe..

>>25777548
Eh, it's really built around one "exploit", and I quote it because it's... a fairly crappy exploit.

Essentially, there's a race in a 3.5 supplement that is, basically, a race of serpent-race gods. One of their listed powers is to make permanent changes to serpentine creatures, including increasing target's stats (permanently) up to their own.

Pun pun works by turning his familiar into one of these things, buffing it, then having it modify his stats to the familiar's new stats, then turning into one of these things, buffing, permanently modifying familiar stats, wash, rinse repeat.

It all hinges on being able to shapeshift both yourself and your familiar into, basically, a god. And *then* taking the most liberal interpretation of a god's ability (that the permanent stat modification works to the god's buffed stats, not permanent stats).

All in all, it's a pretty weak exploit, if you ask me.

>>25779245
Just play Eberron.

The core principle of the world is that permanent Prestidigitation is available at the appropriate cost in the main rulebook, and people took advantage of this at a large scale.

Is there a max size for explosive runes? I may or may not have a gnome in my campaign trying to blow up the world with a rune the size of rhode island

>>25782176
I wasn't aware you could change their size. this is in 3.5, right?

>>25782176
Would "fabricate" or something not work on it? Or is there a limit to the number you can have? If not, I'd just duplicate a large-ish rune over and over and over again. Or a few runes, and then fabricate some drums of oil.

>>25782223
Yeah. I assumed you could change their size since inscribing them the exact same size every time is basically impossible

>>25782236
Can runes trigger other runes?

>>25782253
Not that I know of. I think it has to be a physical object weighing 10lbs+

>>25777690
Who what how?

Maybe rig up some Rube Goldberg shit with Glyphs of Warding. You can set them on all kinds of triggers, and you can even put spells inside them to detonate on whatever triggers them.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm

Greater Glyph will allow up to level 6 spells, Elder Glyph allows 9. Use your imaginations.

>>25782382
Now all I need is measurements of how much TNT would equal an explosive runes, so I can calculate the damage

I'll have to assume that detonating a spiral of explosive runes will act the same way as blowing up a bomb.

>>25782146
>Take a few stones that make up the 'tracks' of Eberron's train system.
>Arrange them in a circular pattern with stones on the outside and inside.
>Hook up a pole to the center array.
>???
>Infinite energy

Eberron can be broken so easily.

>>25782301
In that case, would a spell that amplifies one's voice trigger all the runes in range?

>>25782630
If there was a way to set them to detonate with a "code word" or something, then yes.
Really all you'd need to do is trigger one, and if you had explosives alongside the runes, the force of the explosions should be enough to trigger all the others.

>>25782630
If there's a code word, sure. Whispering Wind could do it from range, but I don't think something like Shout would, since there's no message to it, just damage.

>>25782662
So runes trigger if they are subjected to sufficient force?

In that case, you only need a primer explosive and then all the runes will set each other off

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>>25781268
That sounds amazingly stupid, yet effective.

>>25783189
Thank you. I'm also rowed-a-shield-through-blades-of-grass Anon. I have plenty of stupidly effective ideas.

Lemme tell you a story.

My Elf rogue once got a ring of anti-magic as a reward. It projected an anti-magic field so small, it was only useful for picking magical locks.

With my remaining gold, I bought 5 tons of cannon balls.

Then I asked our party mage to shrink em.

I treated the cannon balls as if they were bullets for my flintlock rifle.

Here's the kicker - I fitted the anti-magic ring at the end of my rifle barrel.

My DM's face was a mixture of awe, disbelief and a twinge of anger when I now have a ship cannon as a portable weapon.

>>25783260
If any come to mind, please share.

Really, that was one of the things I liked about Teegee. Give a bunch of fa/tg/uys magic, and /of course/ they're going to do crazy shit with it. Like the Automatic Shovel Launcher, and a bunch of crap I never got around to writing.

>>25783371
I'm cackling like mad at this idea.

>>25783371
Is it bad that my only thought reading this was "five tons of cannon balls transmorphed into X weight of bullets is still fucking ridiculously heavy"?

But holy shit is that awesome, man.

>>25776545
this is just me nit picking but the average Dishwasher sits at 50-52 dbs where as the 40 stated as an example is a REEEAAALY top-of-the-line-quieter-than-a-pin-dropping-on-a-wet-sponge model.....

source: I'm an appliance salesman

>>25783371
You turned a tiny mundanely useful trinket and turned into a centerpiece for a weapon of mass destruction.

I want you to be in my group.

>>25783371
Lucky the expanding bullet didn't break the cannon. Awesome idea.

>>25783416
Shrink item affects mass too, brah.

>>25783371
Does anti-magic actually "un-shrink" things?

>>25783460
>source: I'm an appliance salesman
My sympathies.

>>25783481
It automatically dispels magic.

>>25783504
But I doubt the velocity would carry through, I would imagine the normal-sized cannon ball dropping off immediately

>>25783502
Yea thanks, it's as exciting as it sounds

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>>25783371
Screencapped, just for you. And the rest of /tg/.

>>25783461
Stories on shit your group has done, go.

>>25783469
I know. But five tons of cannon balls turned into whatever weight in bullets is still heavy as hell, yeah? It's at least a minor inconvenience.

>>25783407
They usually spring up randomly in situations, like there's some retarded instinct in me that says "Anon.. do this dumb shit, and ascend to godhood." Like a game where the DM went on about how you couldn't get past this magically locked door without completing some bullshit puzzle none of us could solve. So I had the mage do "stone to flesh" on the walls around the door, and we tunneled our way past it.

>>25783525
Fire into the air, compensating for drop/distance, and use it as an artillery shot? Some velocity will translate through at least.

>>25783545
At least you get to talk to people. I spent nine hours today folding cardboard boxes and staring at a wall and somehow made two hundred dollars.
Somehow I don't feel like it was worth it.

>>25783568
Correct me if I'm wrong but un-shrinking an item would be the same as shooting the small cannonball into a normal cannonball with a pocket in it. IE: all the momentum is lost and the normal cannon ball moves like a foot

>>25781800
the reason why the 10' pole costs more is because it telescopes, its only 10' when you want to use it, the rest of the time its only like 3'

it says this in the manual

>>25783571
so you make twice my wage and all you have to do is fold boxes

>>25783461
>You turned a tiny mundanely useful trinket and turned into a centerpiece for a weapon of mass destruction.

The average /tg/ should be able to do this on a regular session.

>>25783608
I'm a dreamer, Anon. Not a physicist.

>>25783647
Well, normally I wouldn't have made that much. I got overtime for the last hour and a bonus because I wasn't actually supposed to come in today in the first place and my manager felt like a dick about making me hang around on my day off.

>>25783608
Depends on how the magic functions. Could go either way, depending on your DM.

>>25783695
You're fucking kidding.
I get written up if I don't come in on my days off, when other people call in sick.
I get in trouble when they make me have overtime.
Who the -fuck- do you work for, and how hard is it to get a job?

>>25783662
I'm sure there is a way to exploit anti-magic and shrinking while obeying the laws of physics

like making a hole in a ceiling, putting the ring on it, and dropping shrunk anvils down it.

>>25783660
No kidding, I made arrows fitted with tanglefoot bags.

They cost maybe 25 gp a quiver but they were damn useful.

They even grounded flying units.

>>25783714
I make pizzas.

>>25783714
I'll just keep selling my appliances

>>25783662
It is most definitely a cool idea. But, as with most cool ideas not based on a working knowledge of things, it is also a failure.

Basically, it's like this:

Your shrunk bullet has enough kinetic energy imparted into it by your gun to propel it a certain distance and a certain velocity.

That exact amount of kinetic energy will still be present in the full-size cannon ball when it un-shrinks.

The aforementioned amount of kinetic energy is not enough to propel a full-size cannonball through the air very far, or at lethal speeds

>>25783794
Fortunately, magic is not based on a working knowledge of things. Magic basically runs entirely off of intuition.

Also, D&D magic gives precisely Zero Fucks about conservation laws.

So whether the whole thing would actually work or not really all just comes down to whether the DM thinks it'd be cool enough to work.

>>25783794
To be fair, most of the laws of physics are ignored in tabletop games otherwise, the game is too grounded in reality and becomes boring..

>>25783730
I would probably fit it on the shaft of an arrow and fire it at deadly spellcasters, to ruin their magical abilities. Or maybe put it in the center of a shield, and take every magical attack aimed at me dead-on, with the ring there to hopefully undo it.

>>25783838
I think the ring's effect only works if something magical passes through it, though.

>>25783829
Physics apply normally unless magic directly alters them.

>>25783821
From what I've gathered over the years, magic disregards laws of thermodynamics but leaves laws of physics intact.

>>25783821
>>25783829
If the gun uses some manner of gun/black powder to fire bullets, then it is bound to the limitations of the powder, and therefore cannot magically violate the laws of conservation of mass.

Only way it works is if unshrinking the bullet increases the amount of kinetic energy it's carrying, but that's horseshit.

>>25783853
>>25783371
It projected an anti-magic field so small, it was only useful for picking magical locks.

>anti-magic field
I think it just nullifies all magic in a certain distance of it. The guy only used it as a "cannonball gun" because it was practical and easy for him. The bullet gets within range of the ring, and begins to grow, but the force of the bullet keeps it going fast enough that it doesn't tear the barrel of the gun apart.
That's how I understood it'd work, anyway.

>>25783838
Yeah, the anti-magic ring my DM gave me was to weak to be useful in fighting spellcasters, the AoE was too small.

It was a tool I was supposed to use to get through magical locks.

He didn't expect me to have a more creative use for it.

Too bad he refused to let me own a shotgun. He said the ring's size is too small to let a slug pass through. oh well.

>>25783568
5 tonnes of cannonball turns into 1/1600 of that, so 1.25kg. A little under 3 lbs.

>>25776534
Would that destroy the air too? Because that would probably be loud as hell. All that air rapidly moving into the vacuum caused by the arrow.

>>25783967
I imagine something akin to a thunderclap.
Maybe a crash, but very quick.
A smack on a cataclysmic scale.

>>25783967
It doesn't destroy it. All the material is simply moved to another plane of existence...
also fuck yea thunder arrows

>>25783929
>Too bad he refused to let me own a shotgun

If you had a shotgun that fires pellets of cannonballs, you'd have a ballistic barrage weapon that would have rendered your party mage obsolete.

>>25783552
Thanks, I was about to do it myself.

>>25783929
A shotgun that fires 30-50 cannonballs isn't a ranged weapon.

Its already classified as an artillery attack and would require ranks of knowledge in ballistics.

>>25783371
Why wouldn't kinetic energy/momentum be conserved?

>>25784033
Then there'd still be a vacuum. Meaning it'd be loud as fuck. A ten foot sphere of atmosphere suddenly vanishing and being filled again in an instant. I'm no physicist or a doctor but it might be deafening.

>>25783901
>but that's horseshit

Not very horseshit, though. I'd be OK with ruling that.

>>25784076
>Its already classified as an artillery attack and would require ranks of knowledge in ballistics.
>require ranks of knowledge in ballistics.
Bullshit. You don't need to know ANYTHING to hit something with that.
You need to know a lot, however, to NOT hit something with it.

>>25784040
Not entirely obsolete.
He still needs the mage to shrink the cannon balls.

>>25784090
oh definitely just destroyed is the wrong word

>>25784087
Same reason that mass isn't- the cannonballs also get lighter when shrunk. D&D magic ignores all conservation laws- for instance, you can summon matter or energy into existence whenever the fuck you like.

>>25784076
a man-portable shotgun that fires expanding ammunition is a ranged weapon, regardless of damage dice. It only becomes an artillery attack when you try to hit a target at artillery distances

>>25784117
>D&D magic ignores all conservation laws
That's the most OP game mechanic I've ever heard.

So how much damage does the portable cannon do?

>>25784087
>>25784117
Energy is conserved unless otherwise stated, same as all the laws of physics are followed until something says they're not.

>>25784096
There isn't any sort of implication that the shrinking spell in 3.5 (can't remember its name) or its dispelling would do something like that, so its safe to assume that it doesn't, and that the idea doesn't work. If you're itching for a handwave though, it's a perfectly acceptable one.

>>25784117
>>25784192
I always thought DnD magic didn't ignore laws, it just got around them by siphoning energy and mass from other planes

>>25784209
About 8d6 + reflex save for half damage.
Hilariously, my DM allowed me to use my ranged combat feats.

>>25784218
>Energy is conserved unless otherwise stated
In that case, shit would slow down to insignificant values when the shrinking spell disperses.

>>25784223
The only school that creates stuff from nothing is evocation, and generally it creates bursts of energy.

>>25784328
every single spell creates something from nothing in some form.

>>25784295
Yeah. That's what I've been arguing.

I often wish I could ignore stuff like this, but my autismal prevents me from enjoying things. Like comic books.

I used to able to enjoy comic books.

>>25784349
Evocation you mean? Yes.

None of the other schools do this. Conjuration forms stuff from the substance of other planes.

>>25784349
>mana consumption = nothing
wot

>>25784386
in that case conservation of energy/mass is maintained, mana is converted into mass/energy

>>25784401
None of the spells involve cause the target to suddenly grow in speed. You'd want Telekinesis.

>>25780882
please stop, you are seriously undermining my belief that eugenics are wrong. people should NOT be euthanized for being this retarded.

>>25784386
>mana consumption = nothing
DnD doesn't use mana.

That being said, spells draw their resources (be they energy or physical matter) from other planes.

>>25788711
>responding to three-hour-old troll posts which had been left untouched

>>25788924
seven hours

My Call of Cthulhu group once set a bunch of mechanical traps, out of saplings and rope in the forest in which they were being pursued by beasts. Naturally, I got them confused and had them blunder into their own traps. Not really engineering, I guess.

less 'engineering' and more 'pragmatic adventurers' but I've read a couple of amusing examples on tg

judicious use of tree feather tokens on arrows vs flying enemies (good luck surviving that fall out of the sky with a 60ft tree on top of you)

and a party of... an alchemist, ranger and necromancer I think? Ranger would summon animals, they'd kill them, fill them with cheaply made explosives made by the alchemist, and then the necro would raise them and cast invisibility on them. Instant invisible homing bombs that could seek out any enemies while the party itself stayed back out of harms way.

>>25793569
I like the cut of your jib.

>>25793569
I suppose I'll offer one of my own terrorist tactics. A Glyph of Warding can be set to detonate on a number of criteria, one of which being weight, which is really just a measure of force exerted. By setting the weight limit low enough, you can make contact explosives. Alternatively, one could argue that Sonic damage produces the concept of "weight", as it is a shockwave of medium-bound force.

Glyphs of Warding can be set to deliver Sonic damage. You can breadcrumb a trail of Glyph'd pebbles cued to trigger on, say, 5 pounds of force, and as long as they're close enough to eachother, they'll chain-react like dominos. I once surrounded the entire base of a titanic tower with Glyph pebbles, then set them off by throwing a contact-fused Glyph into the ring. Sonic damage ignoring hardness, the bottom floor was vaporized in one turn. You can imagine what happened to the tower.

I highly suggest Psionic Glyph of Warding to get around the material component costs.

>>25783371
Come to think of it, this is how the guns in Mass Effect are supposed to work.

A shard is shaved off of an ammo block, and accelerated through the barrel. When it reaches the end it's coated in a mass effect field, giving it a bunch more effective mass. (Hence the term.)

In the novels, these things can punch through cars.

>>25794803
Now see, that runs in hard to the problem of kinetic energy and momentum, and they don't even have the "it's Magic!, I don't gotta explain shit" excuse.

>>25794803
>In the novels, these things can punch through cars.
There isn't a real gun IRL that doesn't punch through cars

>>25781726
Hiw can I find this medieval-world sourcebook for GURPS? I'm always hearing about it but I don't have a pdf of it.

>>25781704
10 ft poles are collapsible.

>>25795184
God that sounds so dirty.

>>25794915
A car door or the bodywork, sure.
IRL guns cannot, however, punch a line though a car lengthwise, including the engine block.

>>25795503
Pretty sure some can, a .50 can go through an engine block, it's a common measure of how well a round penetrates stuff. Like in Taxi Driver this guy says a .44 magnum can go through an engine block.

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>>25776722
Not as weird as:
>chocolate energy damage

Seriously, why did you think chocolate elf slaves are so high prized?

>>25796018
There's a great deal of difference between a .50 and such versus the mass effect example, in which just about ALL rounds, including submachinegun rounds, have such penetration or better.

And while I could see a .50 punching though an engine block, since after all anti material is one of it's major uses, I doubt a .44 could do the same.

>>25796117
Yeah the character in the film was meant to be kind of a dickhead really, played by Martin Scorcsese too.

>>25795503
The engine block is a tiny portion of the car. the vast majority of angles at which you can shoot a car will not hit it.
But thank you for clarifying that this is what you meant.

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This is more /k/ than /tg/, but I feel that it's relevant to the spirit of the thread.

Vampire: the Masquerade
Thaumaturgy level 2, easily doable by a new character:

>•• Permanency
>At this level, the conjurer no longer needs to pay Willpower costs to keep an object in existence. The object is permanent, though simple objects are still all that may be created. The object cannot have any moving parts and may not be made of multiple materials. For example, the conjurer may summon a steel baton, a lead pipe, a wooden stake, or a chunk of granite.
>System: The player must invest three blood points in an object to make it real.
Also, it may not be larger than the conjurer.

If I ever come into a blaze of glory situation, I'll conjure a massive block of plutonium.

>>25798637
You're thinking too small, friend.

If you instead summoned a conjurer-sized blob of Botox, you'd have enough botulinium toxin to kill everyone in the entire world, 40 times!

Thus, by killing everything with a pulse, you'll also wipe out the vampires.

>>25782176
The max radius is directly determined by the horizon. On Earth, you'd generally be able to get 5km out of it.

Not much

>>25802105
I'm sure vampires would adapt to having no mortals.

Ironically I think VtR vamps have it way easier in a mortal-free world (they can feed off ghost fetters, spirits, each other in an infinite feedback loop w/ coils, gethsemani can turn wine into blood, etc). All I can think of for VtM ones is nagaraja using nihilistics to feed off ghosts.

>>25797497
I cried, literally. Thank you anon.

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>>25803385
Have some more /k/.

>be a wizard.
>decided to see how small you can make things.
>eventually split an atom.

Fun times. I'm also not allowed to do magic dickery anymore in my group.

>>25807777
Why? It's not like splitting a single atom's going to do anything interesting. You only get BOOM when you split a LOT of atoms, all at once, and only if they're all considerably heavier than iron.

>>25807661

Oh god, that's hilarious. I need to browse /k/ more.

>>25783469
But then conservation of momentum means your gun fires bowling balls that just kind of sort of drop once they hit the antimagic field.

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>>25807661

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>>25808176
>>25808274
Since I have it, have another one.

>>25784295
if inertia is conserved when shrinking/unshrinking an item couldn't you just move a large object at speed then shrink it so it moves much faster but still has the same force of impact but greater piercing potential?

>>25783371
This has given me an idea for a stiletto knife with a ring like that on a collapsible arm over the blade, you stick them, the blade passes through the ring, it expands drastically as it enters them, you lol.

Of course, it would need to be disassembled and re-shrunk in between uses, but you theoretically could stab someone with a shiv that turns into a fucking claymore as it enters them, which would be funny.

>>25783371
holy shit.

In my current campaign, our DM had us enter a place he called the silent woods.

Magic doesn't work there. Turns out the trees had anti-magic properties.

Our ranger had managed to make about 2 quivers full of anti-magic field arrows.

I'm gonna suggest this to our group to chop down a tree and shrink it arrow sized.

The problem is that our ranger has now become the anti-mage and can't carry anything enchanted. What do?

>>25808868
Obviously, someone else has to carry the shrunk tree-arrow.

Or it would be better to just shrink some boulders and fit em on a slingshot.

>>25808708
Isn't that the same as having a d4 dagger and simply expanding it to a d8 claymore?

The damage per effort ratio doesn't seem worth the amount of trouble you had to go through.

>>25809178
In my head it was mostly for comical effect.

If you shrink a bag of holding, will it still be able to hold the same amount?

>>25776921
That's... actually really cool.

>>25777690
>sorcerers.
>terrifying.
Actually, this guy's actually seeing the potential. Sorcerors are more flexible than wizards with regards to actual use of spells, and at all levels get more spells per day total.
Also, the whole "arcane spells at will" thing can eventually net you a flying, whatever-breathing, dude with claws and bite.

>>25779446
And he never thought to put in two on steps next to each other?

>>25783967
Yeah, you basically cast the Might and Magic spell Implosion with this. Except destroying a bit more than just the air.

>>25784263
>my DM allowed me to use my ranged combat feats.
You have... possibly the stupidest clever DM ever.

>>25793569
>an alchemist, ranger and necromancer I think?
Wow. That sounds like it would actually work really well.

>>25794884
>they don't even have the "it's Magic!, I don't gotta explain shit" excuse.
Need I remind you of Clarke's laws?

>>25808868
>What do?
You find yourself a convenient kngdom that's suffering from a draolich and take that fucker on!
Also:
>I'm gonna suggest this to our group to chop down a tree and shrink it arrow sized.
How are you planning to shrink it? Anti-magic field, remember?

>>25807661
>>25797497
>>25808407
/k/ is such a magical place.

>>25802717
> build big tower
> horizon is now 10 km away
It's a start.

>>25810031
>Actually, this guy's actually seeing the potential.
Well, sure.
Sorcerers have the potential to be better than wizards, they are just harder to recover from a bad build.
A worthless wizard build (useless feats, useless spells) can go to market, sell his worthless spellbook, buy a few good spells to scribe into a new book, and be a good wizarfd within a few days.
A worthless sorcerer build cannot be repaired.

replying to self >>25812463
it is worth noting that without taking some special power, sorcerers gain access to higher level spells 1 level behind wizards. Their metamagic extends casting time to a full round action to cast (but can be done on the fly), and a wizard can compensate for the fewer spells by specializing (however, if a wizard does that they permanently lose access to some spell schools)

Cheesy sorcerer stack the specials, afaik you can max out at +4 sorcerer levels. So your 1st level sorc casts as a 5th level sorc.

>>25807810
The problem with all this "engineering" is that alot of times if you think somewhat hard enough, it doesn't make sense at ALL

>>25794803
You see the reason that doesn't really make sense is that it really doesn't mean much if an ultra small piece of metal goes right through you. Itll pass through you and do no damage.


As for the cannonballs, I'm not sure why the initial justification is that the cannonballs are ACTIVELY being kept small by magic. Does that mean everything that ever has its properties changed by magic suddenly has a "base" state and any changes from it are preserved in some "magic memory" because if it does, it has some insane applications

Personally I prefer my shrunk items to NOT unshrink before hitting the target.
Step 1: Shrink a tree
Step 2: Shape into arrow
Step 3: Shoot into someone
Step 4: Say the command word while the arrow is lodged in their body, making it expand to a tree trunk size inside them, tearing them apart.
That is even assuming that hitting the target doesn't cause auto enlargement (being tossed on the floor cause items to return to their full size)

Another use for shrink item is rapid looting mid combat.
Enemy corpse? A large vault? etc... we are escaping from higher level enemies... thats ok, take 10 seconds (1 round) to shrink item and then grab it.
I have also in the past thrown entire corpses covered in gear into a bag of holding to be looted properly later on.

>me: I loot the corpse
>dm: Mid combat?
>me: It won't take long
>dm: yes it will, you have to search it, it takes 2 minutes to take off the magical armor. Each ring has to be taken off seperately, etc.
>me: Oh I see the misunderstanding, I loot the CORPSE, the entire thing, I toss in my bag of holding as is.

>>25783525
Nah man, even accounting for sudden shifts in mass and weight, laws of inertia still state that the projectile will still carry a majority of it's forward motion. F=MxA. So, technically, if you loosely interpret this, firing the weapon from an angle to compensate for gravitational pull, wind resistance and friction, a flintlock bullet travels at 896m/s(my figures are probably wrong, so please bear with me).
The average flintlock bullet weighs several ounces, so if you calculate properly, your shrunken cannonball bullet would be travelling at top speed almost instantly and when it hit the anti-magic ring, it would basically lose some speed, but still enough to hit a ship that's within 100 meters from shore.
Kudos for your ingenuity, my friend.

>>25813347
It's okay, man; you'll learn about conservation of energy eventually.

>>25783714
Not him but I work for the state. Its like highschool. Nobody wants to work and people just call out for whatever reason.

>>25813410
We're talking about an item that has been magically shrunk to a fraction of its original size. There's a slight issue with conversation of mass here as well, don't you think? Or maybe, just maybe, the item uses magic.

>>25813759
Don't yell at me, man. Mr. F=m*a brought up physics, so I'm pointing out that his is wrong. If you're going to use physics where it doesn't belong, at least use proper physics.

Besides, the mass could be turned into energy... which leads to interesting things like a freshly shrunk item being ridiculously hot and a freshly grown item being ridiculously cold.

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>>25813829

> attach a large ring of shrinking to cannon's muzzle
> fire cannonball
> cannonball comes out as a little piece of white-hot metal going RIDICULOUSLY fast

>>25813829
>>25814016
I think the Energy of a cannonball does far more than heat or speed the remaining bullet up. You'd have a explosion comparable to the biggest nukes whenever you shrink something, and enlarging it would probably freeze an entire region.

>>25814093
Well that's a bit far-fetched, isn't it?
The energy has to come from SOMEWHERE. Having a tiny bullet produce an explosion the size of a nuke would require a ton more energy used to launch it. You should have a ridiculously huge and powerful cannon to begin with, and if you can build that thing you might as well make a bunch of Maimized Lightning Bolt Railguns and save yourself time and trouble.

>>25808533
Honestly, I'm. Yeah, inertia and kinetic energy are conserved, so the object might go faster after being shrunk, but the decreased weight would affect the rate of deceleration and the force of collision (since momentum is Mass* Velocity, it may very well be changed by a change in object mass). Also, I can't remember how collision formulas work, so I can't even plug in some random numbers to see how the mass-velocity change might affect things.

So, in conclusion: fucked if I know.

>>25814196
Well, once it shrinks, assuming conservation of energy and mass, you have a large amount of mass suddenly changing to energy and a lot of gravitational potential energy suddenly disappearing. The mass energizing would probably be heat, but the gravitational I could see becoming either kinetic or heat... kind of hard to imagine, since magic doesn't exist and all. So you could get a very hot and very high-speed projectile with surprisingly little energy.

Shrink Item reduces the object to one 4000th of its original mass, which would increase its speed by at least a factor of 16,000,000 assuming the kinetic energy is conserved and nothing else contributes to it. So first a boulder at even a meter per second, which is ridiculously slow, and it's going millions of meters per second.

>>25814466
You don't know if the magical shrinking effect follows the law of conservation of mass or energy (though energy is likely), and since the spell isn't stated to set off world-rending nuclear reactions, we can safely assume it doesn't destroy any matter or convert it to energy, as you suggested.

>>25813347
You're using the wrong formula, mate. Instead of F=MA, we should be considering KE=1/2xMxV^2

Since the enlargening spell increases mass by 4000 (iirc), velocity is reduced by 20 times, since KE is conserved due to the Law of Inertia.

The muzzle velocity you proposed is preposterous, since even modern weapons have a hard time reaching 800m/s of muzzle velocity. Think about it. You're claiming flintlock shotte can cover four-fifths of a kilometre in a second. Not gonna happen.

Realistically, a flintlock (using data from testing on a Brown Bess) reaches muzzle velocities of 213-274m/s. When the shot passes through the dispel field, following the Law of Inertia, it should have its velocity reduced to something like 13m/s.

Still deadly, however, due to the mass of the cannonball.

>>25812713
But then you run into decomposition problems, due to the bag's accelerated decay factor.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/19996057/

>complicated getHard
Erm.

>>25815580
But what about conservation of momentum? Since mass has been increased by a factor of 4000, velocity should be reduced by a factor of 4000.

Then again, this could be useful: If Conservation of Energy wins out over Conservation of Momentum, you basically have a way to pull extra momentum out of the aether. I'm sure this can be put to work somehow.

>>25812713
Shrinking a corpse is more difficult at higher levels, as magical equipment won't shrink.
Though whether the rest of the body does, or if the spell simply fails, is a GM call I think.

>>25815580
>since KE is conserved due to the Law of inertia.

Momentum, not inertia. Inertia is just the mass.

Kinetic energy and momentum are two entirely different things. The momentum of an object is the mass times the velocity. Since velocity is directional (it's a vector) momentum is also directional, ten kgm/s in one direction cancels out ten kgm/s in the opposite direction.

So in reality, what happens when a moving object suddenly decides to increase it's mass by a substantial amount? Say a 1kg ball doing 10m/s turning into a 10kg ball?

It starts with 50J of kinetic energy and 10kgm/s of momentum.

For the momentum to be preserved, the speed must drop to 1m/s as the mass increases. If that's what happens, then the new kinetic energy is 5J. This in itself doesn't actually violate anything, since we're generally free to convert one form of energy into another. And we already have magic involved, so I guess that takes care of how the energy is transformed. The 45J that got left over simply turn into heat. For a ten gram flintlock pistol bullet doing 380m/s (722J) turnign into a 20lbs cannonball, this gives us a new speed of 0.42m/s, and a new kinetic energy of 0.8J.

Watch your foot.

If on the other hand the magic doesn't turn the excess kinetic energy into some other kind of energy then reality gives up, as we can't conserve both momentum and kinetic energy at the same time.