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>>28734574
The punching bags:
Nothing exceptional here, move along.
Caldor Draigo - Dead after 9(!) phases, having dealt 0.45 wounds in turn.
Be'lakor - Dead after six phases, with 0.8 wounds dealt in return.
Asterion Moloc - Dead after six phases, with 0.45 wounds dealt in return.
Darnath Lysander - Dead after six phases, with 0.54 wounds dealt in turn.
Marneus Calgar - Dead after four phases, with 0.04 wounds dealt in return.
Drahzar - Dead after two phases, with 0.14 wounds dealt in return.
Kharn - Dead after one phase, with 0.13 wounds dealt in turn.

The chaff:
So bad that their opponent would manage to regain wounds lost earlier.
Sammael - Dead after 5 phases, with -1.1 wounds dealt in turn.
Imothek - Dead after four phases, with -0.76 wounds caused in return.
The Sanguinor - Dead after four phases, with - 0.21 wounds dealt in turn.
Lelith Hesparex - Dead after three phases, with -0.64 wounds dealt in turn.
Obyron - Dead after two phases, with -0.4 wounds dealt in return.
Yarrik - Dead after two phases, with -0.5 wounds dealt in turn.
Saint Celestine - Dead after one phase, with -0.28 wounds dealt in turn.
Farsight - Dead after one phase, with -0.16 wounds dealt in return.

Notes:
Smashfucker should probably always be equipped with digital weapons for 10pts, but I wanted to save myself the headache of calculating that one reroll everytime.
One should also consider exchanging his bike's boltguns for Betrayer's Bane and giving him the Tempered Helm for a total of 60pts, which, when combined, give you basically a twinlinked infinite-use combi-melta. This, alongside Hammer of Wrath and charge boni, should considerably boost his hitting power on the turn he gets into combat.
Going by RAW you could also equip his unit with The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, to give him Hatred, but that is iffy at best.

>>28734574
These calulation have been blessed and approved by the Adeptus Mathematicus.

Pray tell, is Ironfather Smashucker viable at 260 points?
Also, could he reliably eat a Riptide?

>>28734795
>Is he viable?
Well, there are a grand total of three named characters in the entire game that can actually take him down. Provided his squad doesn't eat a Strength D hit from a superheavy, there is very little that could reliably take him down.
The best shot at wasting him are 'stat-test or die' type of items like the shattershard or the tesseract labyrinth, but even those have a fairly low chance due to his decent statline.
>Riptide
Provided he managed to catch it, sure. Not in one phase, I think, but I'd need to run the numbers and I don't know the gundam's stats by heart.

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>>28734574

NICE RIDE, OLD MAN

THE MECHANICUS CALLED, THEY WANT THEIR BABBY STROLLER BACK

>>28734886
I was rather thinking he may get hit by a medusa blast so that his retinue kicks the bucket and then shot to pieces by a FRFSRF 50-dude diddleyblob. But I take your word for his effectiveness.

Tipride is T6, W5, 2+, FNP +5, possibly 3++.

>>28735154
Well, if his retinue bites it entirely, which between bikes, FnP and stormshields is fairly unlikely, he is still a T5 2+/3++ 5+FnP IWND dude.
A 50-strong blob under FRFSRF causes a total of 0.71 wounds to him on average.

Riptide (same rules as above; FnP by way of Stimulant Injector, assuming nova reactor gets used for the 3++ every turn, but blows up 1/3 of the time):
Lasts six phases (just barely above five, actually), or three turns, in melee against Smashfucker alone.

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>>28734574
It's pretty suprising that Karandras got his way in the second tier looking how he has no invul.

Does Smashfucker save the Marine Codex?

>>28735391
By dint of gear and rerolls he has a lot more oomph than I expected, true. With an invul like Battle Fortune he could put an impressive two wounds on Smashfucker.
Same goes for Mephiston. If he wasn't plagued by a shitty AP3 weapon, his myriad of offensive rerolls and his absurd statline would make him even more of a challenge.

>>28735360
1.3889 if within 12, 2.083 if they have an allied inquisitor to cast divination, and some Manticores should make short work of the bike squad.

>>28735501
Now I have and idea of putting him into the Dire Avengers squad with exarch and shimmershield.
He would get 5++ in that case, right?

>>28735522
Don't forget he regrows 0.33 wounds a turn via IWND.

150 shots at BS3, hitting on a 4+; 75 of which hit at S3, wounding on a 6+; 12.5 of which wound; he takes his 2+ save, preventing all but 2.08 wounds; against those he gets his 4+ FnP, which prevents again half the damage; 1.04 wounds ultimatly go through, of which 0.33 regrow at the end of the turn, resulting in a total of 0.71 wounds suffered from those guardsmen.
By my math, that is. I tend to fuck things up along the way, though, so what do I know?
That being said, the Clan Raukaan supplement encourages theuser to roll all wounds agains Smashfucker seperatly, which sounds like a nightmare in this case.
Manticores will hurt the retinue, though, very true. It's all mostly a thought experiment anyway.

>>28735592
Didn't shimmershield only affect ranged? Or is this just my misconception?
Not very fluffy, either way.

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>>28735721
> I need your clothes, your boots, and your shimmersheild.

>>28734586
>Caldor Draigo - Dead after 9(!) phases, having dealt 0.45 wounds in turn.
>9 phases
Jesus christ, but that guy sure knows how to take his blows.

>>28735765
Kharandras with a 5++ by way of shimmershield:
Dead after three phases, with 1.26 wounds dealt in return.
..yeah, the loss of the 'stalker' rerolls by phase three really stands out here.

>>28734574
>>28734586
I feel you should have done at least three trials and averaged them.

Lysander statistically should put up a much better fight.

>>28738294

I think those numbers are the statistically likely outcomes, hence the fractions of a wound.

>>28734574

Who is Ironfather Smashfucker anyway?

>>28738362
A load out for an Iron Hands HQ with a bike and a hammer. More to it.

Tough and hits hard.

>>28738334
That makes absolutely no sense for Lysander to do that badly though. Other than having 2 fewer attacks (which is somewhat negated by being Master Crafted) and lacking IWND, his stats are functionally identical to Smashfucker in every way that matters.

Smashfucker should win, but it being a blowout sounds like an outlier to me.

>>28734586
How does Draigo hold out so damn long?
2+3++ isn't a big thing, he doesn't regen?

Also I think you should test it against a Necron Overlord with 2+/3++, Warscythe and Mindshackle Scarabs. Imothek lasted 4 turns, so with the scarabs making Smashfucker attack himself half the time It should last at least 8 rounds, and the warschyte plus the self inflicted hits should make a number on him.

>>28738496
I'm guessing he had him with an Apothecary for FNP. Personally I think he should have left bodyguard units out of it, since you certainly can't always rely on an Apothecary or the like surviving long enough to help your character.

Also, I have a feeling Be'lakor wasn't spamming Hallucinate (or Invisibility, of he didn't feel like gambling) every turn like he should have been, either of which could have potentially swung the fight in his favor. I get that he probably didn't want to calculate the exact odds of Smashfucker going Errrrm and not swinging for two full rounds, but that's a pretty big component of what makes Be'lakor a good duelist. He pays a huge premium for those guaranteed psychic powers.

>>28738429

I'd test it myself, but a) I don't know their statlines and b) the only version of the 40k rulebook I can remember is 3e.

>>28738496

I think he's got a 2++ now. They FAQ'd his sword to be just like the regular nemesis force swords, so it gives +1 to invul or something like that.

>>28738930
I think you've been smoking too much crack anon.

>>28738429
Hmm, let's look at it.
As in the OP, continous challenge, both guys calculated with retinue.
Lysander swings 3 times, hits 1.875 times (reroll), of those 1.56 wound, all but 0.52 glace of the 3++ and at the end of the turn 0.33 regrow via IWND, averaging out to 0.19 wounds taken per phase.
Smashfucker swings 5 times, hits 2.5 of those, wounds 2.08 times, which, after the 3++, bouls down to 0.69 wounds taken per turn.
....turns out I fucked up, apparently. Again. Lysander only lasts five phases, not six, and deals substantially more damage, at 0.95. Still only tier 3, mind you.
Nevertheless, I apologize for my fuckup. I'll check the other guys again tomorrow to be sure.
>>28738616
Retinue was demanded last time. I guess I could calculate it all again without those. It should remain the same for the most part, though, since his opposition mostly had the same guys with them.
I took the Be'lakor stats from another guy, didn't check them. WS 1 should be calculated in, though. No clue about Hallucination, can it even be used in melee?
>>28738566
Another guy said he'd do some generic characters with a combat loadout. We'll see.

>>28739195
>No clue about Hallucination, can it even be used in melee?

Yes, its a Malediction, which can be used in melee.

Basically if it goes off it has a 1/3 chance of doing nothing, a 1/3 chance of causing Smashfucker to punch himself in the face once, and a 1/3 chance of causing Smashfucker to stand around for a full game turn (2 rounds of combat) making no attacks whatsoever.

>>28739195
Sooooo... how the hell does Draigo last so long?
Is it because of the retinue?

>>28739195
I don't think raw numbercrunching really works in this case, because WHEN IWND procs can make a massive difference.

If it procs after 1 wound against an opponent who is inflicting Instant Death it doesn't really matter, because it would be a 3++ and Eternal Warrior either way.

If it procs after 2 wounds when EW would be lost, it makes a huge fucking difference because otherwise the next wound would instagib him.

Conversely, against something that isn't causing Instant Death it would matter much more on the first wound (for the +1FNP bonus) as opposed to the second wound.

Its just too big of a "what if" to boil it down to a flat -.33, because depending on the opponent the exact timing will have a significant effect.

>>28739242
So it's basically a nightmare to calculate for? Awesome, I was already in over my head trying to calculate Stalker and Disarming Blow...
Any ideas?

>>28739321
I'm almost sure it is, because Draigo can get FNP 5+ from an Apothecary, and his T5 ensures that Smashfucker can't deny it. Take that away and he's identical to Lysander defensively (3++, 4 wounds, hit on 4s, wounded on 2s, no FNP or IWND)

>>28739349
Don't even bother.

Just put an asterisk next to him with a note that says he's a potential tier 1/2 IF hallucinate works properly.

>>28739329
Agreed, the 0.33 way of going about it is just very convenient to mathhammer the whole process. In any realistic setting the entire thing collapses, naturally.
>>28739321
Yes. He is very similar to Smashfucker statwise, but his weapon is a whole lot shittier.

>>28739403
Will do.
The biggest issue for Smashfucker I see there is being forced to do nothing for two phases. While I'm not absolutly sure that it will be enough for Be'lakor to actually kill the guy, it might very well be. It should certainly be enough to push him into tier 2.
>>28739361
Bingo.

>>28734586
Should use Straken, not Yarrick.

Yarrick isn't really meant to be a combat champ.

>>28739571
Straken isn't really going to do any better.

Probably significantly worse, if I remember his stats correctly. Doesn't he have like a 5++, T4, and no Eternal Warrior? At least Yarrick is rocking a 4++, that weird forcefield thing that makes you reroll wounds against him, and his ability to not die when he is killed sometimes.

>>28739610
Straken, however, can get his own retinue and bodyguards. He was much better in 5th, when you could cycle wounds around however, which is what he was designed for.

Still, he can ignore the first two wounds in the combat because his bodyguards take it.

>>28739638
Wait, bodyguard no longer works that way, does it?

Fuck, yea, Straken's dead way easy.

>>28739638
>Still, he can ignore the first two wounds in the combat because his bodyguards take it.

Not in a Challenge they can't.

>>28739610
Yarrik has a 4++? Seriously? I must have missed that all these years...
Boy, do I ever feel the fool.
>>28739571
Straken is a cool guy, but he lacks the EW or T5+ needed to seriously tackle Smashfucker.

>>28739610
Yarrick doesn't have an invulnerable.

>>28739686
What about Nork, or a CCS with a medic, Straken, Nork and an attached Yarrick?

Archon coupled with his Farseer girlfriend who happened to roll Fortune. Re-roll-able 2++.

>>28739846
Mostly irrelevant due to the nature of Challenges.

>>28739846
Nork can't get through his armor.

All three? Well, IG is all about numbers...

He could just challenge them to death though.

>>28739898
Well, what gear besides shadowfield for the archon? Also, what WS does the archon have? 8?

>>28739898
While that could work in theory, it kinda defeats the premise since they're from two difference codices. If we want to bring allies and secondary HQs into this it'll spiral wildly out of control in no time.

>>28739953
Huskblade.
IIRC it's Instant Death therefore ignores FnP.

>>28739953
7.

>>28739999
Le Eternal Warrior face.

>>28739999
>Instant Death therefore ignores FnP.
Correct.
No other gear? Alright, give me a moment to run the numbers.

>>28739973
Case in point: Smashfucker with an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with hammerhand, Rad/Psycotroke/Psyk-out grenades, 3+ Priests from the Henchmen Warband, and a ML2 Biomancy librarian for potentual Endurance/Enfeeble.

>>28739953
WS7.

And he can be armed with almost anything in that fight where enemy has to take ~36 wounds on him. Game will end before either of the combatants falls.

>>28740034
Not necessarily. He's reliant on the Farseer passing Fortune every turn to keep up those odds, and he's obligated to bash through all 4 of Smashfucker's (regenerating) wounds, while if he fails even a single save he instantly dies gg no re.

>>28740029
>ML2 Biomancy librarian for potential Endurance/Enfeeble.

If you're looking to specifically buff Smashfucker in a challenge, Telepathy is actually the better choice for a shot at Invisibility and Hallucinate I think.

>>28740029
Farseer and Archon cost almost the same amount of points as IF CM with all those artifacts.

>>28740133
Still, the premise was for single-codex stuff. Virtually none of these fights are point-equal, so if the DE can bring buffmonkeys they Smashfucker can too.

>>28739999
Get a 5pt Venomblade, it's better.

Instead of testing with the Gorgon's Chain, I would recommend testing with the Shield Eternal. True, it doesn't have the bonuses to FNP, but it's a standard 3++ and always has Eternal Warrior.

>>28739999
So, let's see. Archon (shadowfield, huskblade, pistol) attacks 5 times, hits 3.33 of those, wounds 0.55 times of those, 0.19 of those get past the 3++. IWND regrows 0.33 of those, for a total of -0.14 wounds taken a turn.
Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hits the archon 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 times of those. Shadowfield with rerolls absorbs all but 0.06 wounds.
After 17 phases Smashfucker should have accumulated enough damage to push past the first wound threshold, collapsing the shadowfield and activating Instant Death, ending a combat.

>>28740223
Pox on Huskblades. Use Venomblade instead.

Also, you can't have more combat turns than 10, so...

>>28740153
Curiously enough, Smashfucker seems to do REALLY well against guys at his point level. Abaddon, Draigo, Mephiston...
Swarmlord being the big exception, because fuck me, killing Smashfucker in TWO phases?
>>28740161
Shouldn't that be about even? One wounds on a 2+, but has to deal with the 2+ armor, while one wounds on a 6, but ignores FnP and only has to deal with the 3++, I mean

>>28740319
Where are your brains fellow? 2+ is only twice as good as 3++, but wounding on 2+ means 5 times more wounds. So Archon will pull 2.5 more wounds.

>>28740354
1.25, because the venomblade doesn't ignore feel no pain

>>28740354
Yeah, but then it's all socked by FnP.

>>28740354
And to be really mean, i'd suggest using Twinblade archon. Hit with venom blade until EW is gone, then try your luck with huskblade

>>28740298
Hmm, sure.
Archon attacks 5 times, hits 3.33 of those, wounds 2.78 times, all but 0.46 ping of the armor, 0.31 get past FnP and -0.02 remain after IWND.
Better, but still not so hot.
>no more combat turns than 10
Yeah, but it's all theory anyway, so might as well have some fun.
Did some tests on the primarchs, and it took Fulgrim something like well over 20 phases of wailing on Smashfucker to bring him down.

>>28740426
Since we've got Farseer, he can probably use some buffs on Archon besides Fortune. Or Doom his enemy.

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It has no use outside of Damnos but I'm curious about.
Can you please calculate Calgar with his HERCULEAN FEAT finest hour?
This makes him s5 (and his gauntlets become s10).

>>28735592
I though the PLs could only join their own Aspect, or did they get rid of that?

>>28740537
Yep, Disciples rule is no more.

>>28735656
>150 shots
Actually, thanks to stupidity the sergeants have only got laspistols, so make that 140 shots, and then some of them may be at long range, so (95 + 140) / 2 = 117.5 shots total. It really is grim for cutting this guy down with lasfire.

>>28740488
Like, for one phase? Or for the entire game?
because if it's for the entire thing, he'd still be dead after 4 phases, but would have dealt 1.46 wounds instead of 0.04.

Sorry, what exactly is Smashfucker?
Generic Iron Hands Chapter Master with honor guard?

Full loadout for Eldar Gay Couple:

Farseer
with Runes of Witnessing - 115 pts

Archon with Huskblade & Venomblade, Shadowfield and Combat Drugs - 140

For the total of balanced 255 pts.

>>28740681
Why take both Huskblade and Venom Blade?

>>28740680
Iron Hands Chaptermaster using the the Clan Raukaan supplement.
Baseline, he is equipped with a thunderhammer, a lightning claw, a bike, artificer armor and Gorgon's Chain (an extreamly powerful item from that supplement). Season to taste with digital weapons, Betrayer's Bane (an infinite-use combimelta) and the Tempered Helm (to reroll ones to hit during shooting). Throw in a biker command squad and make him your warlord.
Done.

How do i make the smashfucker if i can't afford the ironhands supplement yet?

>>28740681
The Farseer will just die to the rest of the bike unit.

>>28740807
Some kind of shenanigans about one of them having instant death but only being relevant when the iron hands guy was down to 2 wounds. (and the other weapon being easier to get him down to that)

>>28740902
You could always make his little brother, Smashkill. For him you only need the vanilla marine codex. Same gear, but swap out lightning claw and Gorgon's Chain for The Shield Eternal. Not quite as balls-out powerful, but still enough to handle a large number of challengers.

>>28740902
How does Black Templar Chapter Master with artificer armour+thunder hammer+shield eternal+bike+ccs with banner/apothecary stack up?

>>28740974
And neither doing jack. Can't forget that.

>>28741031

Also, how does Smashfucker fair in a mirror match? Can one Smashfucker triumph over the other? And if so, what's the key difference?

>>28741031
He deals more damage, but lacks the exceedingly powerful IWND. Rending is fairly pointless on him, but the offensive rerolls are always nice, as shown by >>28735501.
Remember that the vanilla variants have one less A than Smashfucker, though, alongside FnP worse by one degree and a far shittier warlord table.

>>28741053
...huh. That IS a good question. Let's have look:
Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hitting 2.5 times.2.08 wounds are caused, 0.69 go past the 3++, 0.35 past the FnP. IWND restores 0.33 of that. Smashfucker has dealt to his (probably goatee'd) evil twin 0.02 wounds this phase.
As has his evil twin. At the same time. They are, as the cliché goes, evenly matched.
This would go on until both lost their first wound after 50 phases, at which point both would get their FnP reduced by one.
At this point both would loose 0.13 wounds a phase.
Then again when both have lost their third wound after another 16 phases, at which point both would get their invul reduced to 4+.
At this point both would take 0.36 wounds a phase, meaning after 3 more phases both would kick the bucket at the same time.
In total, those two just kept hitting each other for 69 phases, or a grand total 34 and a half turns.

...wow.

>>28741433

Is there any conditional bonuses (e.g. charging) that might tip the scales one way or the other?

I'm reading the supplement now. Iron Hands are kind of cartoonish assholes

>>28741433

For some reason I'm picturing that scene from the end of House of Flying Daggers where the two police captains fight for an entire season, but with Space Marines and thunder hammers. It's pretty metal, which is appropriate for the Iron Hands.

>>28741433
As a non 40k playing person, how long does the average match usually take, for context? 10 rounds? 20? 50?

>>28741552
Iron Within
Iron Without!

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How would he do against an Avatar with disarm? Mine has beaten thraka and lysander with ease

>>28741615
They last 5-7 turns so average out to be 6

>>28741523
Yeah. Hammer of Wrath, Shooting and +1A for charging would likely give a tiny edge. That being said, we are talking about a difference in the vicinity of 0.005 wounds during the first phase. That being said, since the last phase both fighters bunch the other guy about 0.16 wounds over the threshold, that difference has absolutly no bearing at all on the outcome of the fight.

>>28741682
daaaaaammmnnnn that would be infuriating in an actual game then.

>>28741651
Give me moment to dig up that one, I have already done the math for that fight.
Crushing Blow and Disarm.
>>28741615
5 to 7, but it's downright impossible to fight during the first and highly improbable during the second.
>>28741645
Wrong Iron Guys, mate. You are thinking Iron Warriors. 'The Flesh Is Weak!' would be the right one.
>>28741604
That sounds awesome. Any drawfag here by chance?

>>28741816
>>28741645

Someone should repost that thing about the Chaos Lord that's trying to figure out which Legions/Chapters are on them same side as them just by the names and getting most of them wrong.

Steel...rain?

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>>28741977
Stell....RENN?!

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>>28742001
STEEHHHHHLLLLLLLLLLLL
REEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

>>28741651
Here we go. Disarming Strike is infuriating to math out, so for simplicity's sake I am going to assume that Disarming Strike works on the first two turns, and on every even turn from then on every odd turn.
Avatar strikes first, attacking 5 times and hitting 3.33 times, wounding 2.78. 0.93 go past the invul, and of those 0.31 past the FnP. Of those 0.33 regrow, resulting in -0.2 wounds lost.
Smashfucker lost his hammer's rules for the turn, so he uses his claw instead. 1.67 hits, 0.32 wounds caused. 0.22 after invuls.
Phase two works the same, resulting in the Avatar loosing a total of 0.44 wounds so far.
Next turn the Avatars will continue to fail at causing a wound to stick while Smashfucker may strike with his hammer this time around. 1.67 hits again, 1.39 wounds caused. 0.92 after invuls, totaling out at 1.36 wounds caused after three phases.
From here on out it's going to be claw->hammer->claw->hammer. Avatar continues to wail on the Ironfather without effect, who does a combined damage of 1.14 wounds every two phases.
With 5 wounds it would take a while, but after exactly 10 phases the Avatar would be dead, with no wounds caused in return.

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>>28734586

No Lucius?

Thinking about these fights how does he do against a C'tan Shard, he only wounds on 3's and has to take an initiative test or die at the beginning of every round.

>>28742121
Didnt expect that considering how thraka can take him yet the avatar beats thraka

Two weapons i guess

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>>28742051

>>28742121
Since the marine has an apothecary, banner etc wouldnt the avatar get some farseer assistance?

>>28742278

I think a lot of these fights are coming down to "who can deal at least 0.33 wounds on average per turn to Smashfucker", rather than whether they can survive Smashfucker's attacks.

>>28742172
Not Eternal Warrior, not T5+. He'll get his shit pushed in just as quickly as his buddy Kharn did.
>>28742224
Ability-or-die tests are always the biggest issue for guys like him. That being said, his Initiative and Thoughness are both 5, so he only has a 1 in 6 chance to get wiped out by those. Strength and Wounds are more problematic, both being 4.

>>28742354
Cast doom. Fortune is great too
Assuming you roll either

>>28742318
Even buffed out the wazoo, I can't see any way for the Avatar to do anything but die like a bitch after a truckload of turns.

>>28742224
Also adding to this, not really a duel situation but how would scarabs do for holding up, since if they cause 1 wound (even if it regenerates) he'll lose his armour save

What about him against a Destroyer Lord?

>>28740020
Eternal warrior states that you are immune to instant death. Instant Death attacks still ignore FNP even with Eternal Warrior.

>>28742421
I have trouble believing that for some reason

No, I cant math

>>28734574
Any guidelines as to how much ranged firepower of varying categories would be needed to take ol' Smashfucker down, solo or post-his squad getting killed?

>>28742470
Alright. Throw me some reasonable buffs/debuffs, since my eldar is terrible.
>>28742462
Hmm...
Lord attacks 3 times, hitting two times and wounding 1.94 times. 0.65 slip past the invul, 0.32 past the FnP. Regen takes care of 0.33, resulting in -0.1 wounds taken in total.
Smashfucker strikes back, 3.33 of his 5 attacks hitting, wounding 2.78 times. No saves, no FnP, no IWND.
Two phases later the Destroyer Lord is dead, having dealt no wounds in turn.
Now, Mindshackle shenanigans. 50% chance of working at leadership 10, I think?

>>28742462
No invulnerable. It dies painfully. A standard Lord with an invulnerable is better.

>>28742577
About 200 lasrifles at rapidfire range should do the trick. I think.

>>28742729
Mindshacke only make the fight go longer, because Smashfucker can't do anything worthwhile to himself, and the Lord does only 0.20 wounds to him every turn. So in the end Smashfucker wins.

>>28742783
I don't know if you can place 200 lasrifles close enought to be all in close range.

>>28742783
They do exactly 4.1 wounds to him in a round. So yes, if you successfully fit 200 lasrifles into a 12" range you can kill it.

>>28742354
210point model vs a 260 point guy with an apothecary and a bannerman? Not very fair. Remove the squad backing him and the avatar deals what, 0.93 wounds minus 0.33 from regrowth = 0.60 wounds instead of 0.2.

Avatar wins despite 50 pts difference?
This is from the guy who cant math so... Maybe not

>>28742810
Let's see. Average base takes up a circle with a diameter of one inch, let's say. 12 inches is Rapid-Fire range, assuming Smashfucker has a base radius of one inch for ease of use, so the total area to put troops in is pi*(13^2-1) or pi*192. Assuming no loss whatsoever due to base shape inefficiencies, you can get 672 guardsmen within rapid fire range, or maybe a third of that when accounting for inefficiencies (224, for all that it matters). So yes, you can get that many guardsmen within range, but only just, and the points deficiency would be horrific for what you needed it for.

>>28742365

We mathhammered Lucius vs Kharn in a challenge and Lucius beat him. I think you're underestimating a guy who seems tailor-built for single combat. At the very least I'd like to see if he does more damage to Smashy than Kharn did.

>>28742964
They can be in a multi level ruin or something and rapid fire.

You the math guy? Fortune makes whoever reroll failed saves and doom makes the target have failed wounds rerolled against him

>>28742810
>>28742840
>>28742783
It takes 112 lasrifle shots to take his FnP down from 5+ to 6+, then another 250 shots to remove his remaining 3 wounds.
So, in total, 362 lasrifle shots, or 181 lasrifles within 12"

>>28743035
Nope, I'm just a passing engineer. Good to know for the actual maths guy, though.

>>28743059
Which, as seen in >>28742964 is totally doable, making him good at 1v1ing people, but bad at taking massed hordes.

Can you guys throw him against the ''Devourer of Hope'' from the Iyanden supplement.

I think Ironfather Smashfucker needs a 1d4chan article.

Also, I thought about taking a biker marine HQ to smash into my unsuspecting opponent's face and it's a homebrew chapter; I wanted to field them with Imperial Fists rules, but what is happening here sounds really sexy...

>>28742915
Right. Without apothecary the only difference is that the FnP becomes 5+ instead of 4+.
In that case of the 0.93 to go past the invul a total of 0.62 go past the FnP. IWND restores 0.33, so a total of 0.29 wounds are lost per phase.
Also, I just noticed I totally fucked up earlier. During the Avatar fight I counted his FnP as 3+ instead of 4+, I just noticed. So the Avatar would cause 0.13 wounds per phase in that case.
>>28742967
Yeah, but Kharn died in one phase. ONE. And Lucius has no better defence than Kharn, if I'm not mistaken.

>>28743140
Is that an Apoc formation? Never heard of it.
>>28743091
Very true. His mediocre number of attacks and underwhelming volume of shots make him quite horrible at that task. I'd run his retinue with claws and shields to handle that, if I were to actually use deathstars like that.

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>>28743367
Just a special Hive Tyrant from the Iyanden supplement.

>>28743264

Lucius is I6 with a 3+/5++, WS 7, his number of attacks is equal to the WS of the opponent, and has Shred. Also, any successful Save Lucius makes causes an S4 AP2 attack back to the opponent. Lash of Torment drops the opponents Attacks by 1. He also has VotLW so he re-rolls 1s to Hit vs Space Marines in the first round.

>>28743496
But it doesn't get EW, right?

>>28743697
I fail to think a situation in wich that is relevant. The only thing that can instakill it are Nemesis Force Hammers, and even then you have to wound on a 6 and it has a 2++

>>28743187
Biker Marines are pretty great in the current codex. Taking a biker Chapter Master lets you use them as scoring, as well. Also taking a Chapter Master lets you get an honor guard which is one of the most points efficient assault units in the codex

>>28742967
Lucius beat Kharn because Kharn's ws 7 with a poor invulnerable so he gets 7 attacks.

vs Ironfucker he'd get 4 attacks, 2/3+1/6*2/3=0.7777 hit, 5/9 wound, so 1.728 saves made, 0.192 after 3++ and 4+ fnp, 0.192-0.33=-0.138

Iron would hit back with 4 attacks, 2 will hit, 10/6 will wound 5/3*2/3=10/9 passed the invuln. insta-killing Lucius, but also causing 5/3*(1/3) str 4 ap 2 hits, 5/9*1/3*1/3=0.0617 unsaved wounds, 0.0206 passed fnp and iwnd.

Not enough to actually cause over 0 wounds and hence a lower tier than Kharn

>>28743759
Right, forgot about TOUGHNESS FUCKING TEN.

How would he fare against Huron Blackheart? Both Pre- and Post-Badab.

I'm not expecting him to live, but I'm curious.

>MFW someone fields an Iron Hands list with this exact build in it, and Smashfucker spends the entire game choking on Poisoned Gargoyle dick while the rest of his army gets taken apart by Trygons and Flyrants.

Posion and Tarpitting will do what Special Characters won't. Even if it doesn't kill him, it'll stop him doing anything for the rest of the game.

>>28741816
>Wrong Iron Guys, mate. You are thinking Iron Warriors. 'The Flesh Is Weak!' would be the right one.
someone post the image if you have it

>>28744050

D weapon don't care.

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>>28746716

How do Carnifexes (or One Eye) stand in a brawl with this guy.

>>28743894

Does that take into account Shred? Lucius re-rolls missed To Wounds.

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>>28734574
Did that calculate Asterion Moloc's preferred enemy space marines?

>>28749252
Lucius still wouldn't kill him.

>>28750201
Yes, Lucius kills him.
So long as Smashfucker smiles his cold smile. Lucius kills him.

>>28749625
I think he missed that. As well as the fact that all the CSM characters also get Preferred Enemy (SM) as well as the fact that a few of them have Shred.

He also didn't bring up Huron (CSM and not-Loyalist versions), Typhus (AP2 Force Weapon), Straken (ignores armor), and such. Then again, OP pussied out and ignored everyone past T5 and half of the people in that range. It stands to reason that if you know the enemy's gonna bring Smashfucker, you're gonna pack in either your toughest beatstick or your biggest guns.

>>28750381
He didn't ignore them, he just took some samples.

Straken was brought up(only T4 and 5++, so he's dead in a single round), and the other two aren't going to do much better.

>>28734574

ORKS IS BEST

Is that thraka with or without his squad of meganobs attached?

Cool thread math anon, though I'd just like to point out that IWND is only rolled every friendly turn, so every other combat phase basically. That would change your simplified IWND calculation to 0.1666 wounds back per combat phase, which changes some of the match ups I would think.

>>28743894
Lucius would get 6 attacks (chapter masters are WS6), though that won't change the outcome of Lucius getting instant killed the first failed save.

>>28750381
The force part of Typhus' weapon won't really matter since Smashfucker has eternal warrior. I imagine that he'd do pretty similarly to Abaddon if Abby uses his daemon sword. Abby's str5 ap2 d6 extra attacks before Smashfucker VS Typhus str6 ap2 d6 extra attacks hitting simultaneous with Smashfucker. Though against Smashfucker it might be better for Abby to use the talon of Horus (only going from a 2+ to a 3++, but wounding on 2+ rerolling vs 4+, with no chance of hitting himself). Abby's 4++ is statistically the same as Typhus' 5++ with 5+ FNP.

>>28751275
Yup, but activating the Force weapon, IIRC, gives another wound if it doesn't cause Instant Death.

Hmm, wonder how a 30k character with Rad-Grenades would fare. They give the opponent -1T and an Archmagos can go to T6 without much effort.

>>28746850
Pretty sure "Iron within, Iron without" is an Iron Warriors saying.

>>28751901
>thatsthejoke.png

>>28751561
No, activating a force weapon vs. something immune to instant death has no effect.

Since I'm bored I'll do a quick sim of Typhus vs Smashfucker. Though I'm lazy so I'm simplifying the daemon weapon rolls without accounting for the chance that Typhus could hit himself and become WS1 for a phase.

One on one fight:
First round:
Typhus swings with 6.33 attacks average, 4.75 attacks hit (this is with hatred reroll), 3.166 wounds, 1.055 go through the invul, 0.703 go through FnP, regains 0.166 wounds from IWND for a total of 0.537 wounds caused

Smashfucker swings with 5 attacks, 2.5 attacks hit, 2.083 wounds, and 1.041 wounds go through Typhus' invul and FnP.

Subsequent rounds:
Typhus swings with 6.33 attacks average, 3.166 attacks hit, 2.111 wounds, 0.7033 go through the invul, 0.469 go through FnP, regains 0.166 wounds from IWND for a total of 0.302 wounds caused

Smashfucker swings with 5 attacks, 2.5 attacks hit, 2.083 wounds, and 1.041 wounds go through Typhus' invul and FnP.

It'll take Smashfucker 4 rounds of combat to kill Typhus, while Typhus will do 1.444 wounds to Smashfucker in return, which is not enough to bring Smashfucker to the wounds <= 2 threshold where he can be force weaponed. This is without taking into account the chance that Typhus could wound himself and become WS1 as well.
Since I'm bored I'll do a quick sim of Typhus vs Smashfucker. Though I'm lazy so I'm simplifying the daemon weapon rolls without accounting for the chance that Typhus could hit himself and become WS1 for a phase.

>>28751948
sounds about right. in a game the other day, typhus lasted 4 rounds and did two wounds, to the vanilla codex iron hands verion of smashfucker, and that was after failing his daemon weapon roll once, but successfully reducing his attacks and/or lowering his toughness with some nurgle psychic powers.

>>28751948
heh, recursion. Point. So, on average, Smashfucker takes on all comers.
Only factor would be the dice rolls themselves, but luck is a factor that works on a case-by-case basis, not averages. Seems Typhus could do good if the SM player rolls shit.

Doesn't seem like Huron would stand much of a chance either (unless he lucks out on his Hamadrya rolls as well as all the other ones). Loyalist Huron might do some damage since the Ghost Razors make Smashfucker reroll his Inv save.
Guess a Daemon Prince with a Black Mace is the only option, since even the Murder Sword becomes crap with his EW. Save-or-Die it is.

>>28751948
>No, activating a force weapon vs. something immune to instant death has no effect.

true, but also it takes away feel no pain

>>28752481
>true, but also it takes away feel no pain
This is true, I forgot about that. Typhus might do a bit better, I'll redo the numbers.

>>28752481
Problem with that is that Force Weapons take effect with UNSAVED wounds. So it'd have to get through the FnP in the first place.

>>28752481
>>28752551
Wasn't this a sticky rules area when 6th came out? Was this ever FAQed, or if not is there a generally accepted way to handle force weapon vs FnP + eternal warrior?

>>28752518
Once your done could you roll the numbers of smash fucker vs the primarchs? Lets start with Angron.

>>28752481
>>28751948
Turns out I fucked up with calculating Typhus' invul + fnp in the previous post, it's actually 0.555 total wounds saved, not 0.5 like I was doing. That doesn't really change that post though, the combat just barely goes on for 1 more round before Typhus bites it, and Smashfucker doesn't hit the 2 wound forceweapon threshold.

Ok, assuming force weapons can remove FnP is correct, here's how it will go down. I'm not modelling the 0.08 chance of the force weapon failing, or the 0.05 chance that Typhus could suffer perils, but keep that in mind.
One on one combat
First round:
Typhus swings 6.333, hits 4.75, wounds 3.166, 1.055 wounds go through invul, 0.888 wounds after IWND

Smashfucker swings with 5 attacks, 2.5 attacks hit, 2.083 wounds, and 0.925 wounds go through Typhus' invul and FnP.

Subsequent rounds:
Typhus swings 6.333, hits 3.166, wounds 2.111, 0.703 wounds go through invul, 0.537 wounds after IWND

Smashfucker is the same as above, 0.925 wounds to Typhus.

With this interpretation, Typhus will actually win. It will take Typhus 4 rounds of combat to bring Smashfucker to the 2 wound threshold where he can be force weapon instant killed, while Smashfucker will need 5 rounds to kill Typhus. Though again keep in mind this is not accounting for Typhus smacking himself with his daemon weapon, or the chance that he fails his psychic test/suffers perils.

>>28752615
I'll do Angron next.

Can you double-check my math? I don't know what gorgon chain does, (i'm assuming EW and 3++ at least because otherwise skarbrand would instantly win).
But against IH Chaptermaster with EW, TH, bolt pistol, LC, artificer, bike, and what I assumed the chain did (3++ and EW) - jain zar runs 2.05 wounds on the guy before biting it in phase 4 according to stats.

Note that Jain Zar forces smashfucker to use his LC instead of TH 2/3 of the time.


COuld you tell me what the Chain does exactly?

>>28752605
Just read the BRB FAQ. Force Weapon activation goes BEFORE FnP. Time to reroll numbers.

>>28752863
ID removes FnP regardless of EW. Relevant in all cases where Tycho duels Eldrad or Skarbrand

>>28752901
I've calced Jain Zar once.
She stands like three or four rounds but fails to wound at all.

>>28752863
Do you know his stats? I have a link to pics from the book.
>>28752901
(From B&C)
Gorgon's Chain
0 Wounds suffered - 3++, +1 to FNP and the Eternal Warrior special rule.
1 Wound suffered - 3++ and the Eternal Warrior special rule.
2 Wounds suffered - 3++
3 Wounds suffered - 4++
Allows +1 Attacks on the Charge
>>28752921
Are you the same guy doing Angron?

>>28752956
Really? How's that work? she's got AP2, S4, shred, WS7, and 5 attacks.

What does that fucking chain do?

>>28752863
Cool. So unless the MANRAPER turns around and bites him, he'd win. Coolcool.

Also, if you don't know, the Primarch special rules gives them EW, Fearless, IWND, Adamantium Will, and some other Ld rules.

Oh, and btw, IWND only works at the end of each friendly game turn. I think Smashfucker would actually last a bit less.

>>28752965
Nah, I'm not the guy. I think it's OP coming back. I'm no good at MathHammer. I just like watching plastic dudes slug it out it takes my mind off of the fact that my BA is good for kindling and the Disney College Program is my only real hope for income at the moment

>>28752983
Gives EW and improves FnP by 1.
Furthermore, the iron father has It Will not Die.

>>28753051
>BA
>demfeels.jpeg

I remember when they raped my wolves in the ASS.

>>28753106
He's talking about a college degree, not Blood Angels.

>>28753120
whoops.

Time for bed.

>>28750381
>As well as the fact that all the CSM characters also get Preferred Enemy (SM)
no, they all get hatred loyalists which gives reroll failed to hit on the 1st turn of combat. abby the despoiler has the preferred enemy sm trait only

>>28752551
actually i forgot about that, shame force weapons aren't used more often.

>>28752605
no idea.

actually here's a question since eternal warrior is all the rage; have people been losing their fancy characters to instant death a lot? most of the time it's because of failed saves and not s10/force weapons coming out.

>>28752615
>smash fucker vs the primarchs
my money is on the primarchs, though lorgar will probably rank low

looking at the chaos codex/black legion i can get a lord with MoT, 3++, jetbike for t5, power fist, vet of the long war, ichor blood, combat familiar and skull of ker'ngar for 215. i think that's about as tough as a vanilla chaos lord can get though smash bane will still eat him alive.

How do i model a Iron Hand smashfucker on a bike? OP's pic is way above my level.

>>28753145
Huh, turns out Veterans does that. But I was actually wrong about Force weapons. Activating them goes before FnP.

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Hey, math-kun.
I have to ideas.
Both are very unlikely to happen and meet Smashfucker on the table top ever, but those are the strongest eldar fighters I can imagine.

First:

Fuegan who has suffered 3/4 wounds and healed them via warlock before. Also teamed up with avengers.
So s8, a7, FnP, EW, 5++. Note, that he would get +1 a/str for each wound lost further.

Second:

Avatar from the apoc formation.
11 attacks, s7, disarm and EW.

P.S. Did you ever calculate An'ggrath?

>>28753302
> two ideas

>>28752863
>>28752615
Alright, Smashfucker vs Angron
One on one
Angron swings 6 times, hits 4 times, does 3.333 wounds, 1.111 go through invul, 0.741 go through FnP, minus 0.1666 wounds for IWND for 0.574 wounds

Smashfucker swings 5 timees, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.083 times, 1.041 go through invul, 0.875 wounds total after IWND.

After Smashfucker hits the 3 wound threshold:
Angron swings 6 times, hits 4 times, does 3.333 wounds, 1.111 go through invul, 0.925 go through FnP, minus 0.1666 wounds for IWND for 0.759 wounds

After Smashfucker hits the 1 wound threshold:
Angron swings 6 times, hits 4 times, does 3.333 wounds, 1.666 go through invul, 1.388 go through FnP, minus 0.1666 wounds for IWND for 1.222 wounds

Angron wins, but not by as much as you'd think considering that he's 400 points and a primarch. It'll take him 6 rounds of combat to kill Smashfucker, causing an overkill of 4.645 wounds. Smashfucker will have done 5.25 wounds to Angron in that time, and if the combat went on for 1 more round he would kill Angron.

>>28753302
>P.S. Did you ever calculate An'ggrath?

err wait, an'ggrath as in the apoc gargantuan monster? damned loyalists turned into monster hunters over night i swear.
>kill it, skin it, and wear it as a hat!

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>>28753302
Damn, wait, Fuegan has only 3 wounds.
My failure.
S7 A6 then.

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>>28753360
Yes, he is.

>>28753338

Murderous strike deals instant death on a to-wound roll of 6, just to let you know

Idle question: do the +1S/-1S spiritseer buffs stack?

Also: calculating with retinues is dumb so I hope OP didn't factor in any retinue bullshit into his calculations unless he did it as hardcore as possible for everyone

>>28753500
Smashfucker has EW :/

>>28753500
Smashfucker is an Eternal Warrior, and so immune to such shenanigans.

>>28753581
Actually he did.

>>28753589
It'll remove Smashfucker's FnP. I don't feel like working out modelling that, over the course of a whole fight, but let's just say with that in effect Angron still wins, but by slightly more.
>>28753383
I'll work out A6 Fuegan.

>>28737901
He's been floating in the warp for the equivalent of thousands of years, he'd damn well better know how to take blows.

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Also, it would be intresting to see what could he do againts Fulgrim.
REVENGEANCE TIME.

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>>28753644
After visiting Slaneesh he also knows how to give them.

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>>28753687

>>28753601
So a farseer and it's squad or 1-5 spiritseers and squad for the Eldar heroes? Because I would never run a Phoenix lord without Seer support, let alone an Eldar army without magic and wouldn't leave a phoenix lord in a suicidal position like that. Not to mention kitted out command squads being way more expensive than generic DA squads.

Because here's the list of buffs/debuffs Eldar can throw while locked in combat that could change that shit among various phoneix lords:
Renew
Horrify(Asurmen)
Empower(Everyone who isn't Karandras)
Enervate
Jinx(for retinue)
Doom(non-jain zar)
Fortune(combo with ++ saves and disarm)
Forewarning
prescience
Misfortune
Invisibility
Hallucination
Terrify


Not that any eldar hero actually wins 1v1. I'm just pointing out that Eldar piss magic, so in a retinue there had better be at least one caster because no one runs phoenix lords without caster support.

>>28753758
It's a nightmare to calculate since psychic powers are random.

>>28753302
>>28753383
I'm not OP BTW, just some dude with a spreadsheet and a bunch of pdfs. All the ones I've rolled up so far (Typhus, Angron) say One on one fight, so no outside helpers.

Ok, souped up apoc Fuegan vs. Smashfucker. Note that with this setup Fuegan does the same damage to Smashfucker as Angron does minus murderous strike. This one does have outside help in that Fuegan would have been taken to 1 wound earlier and then healed back up with some gay eldar magic. No help during the actual fight though.

Starting off
Fuegan has 6 attacks, 4 hit, 3.333 wound, 1.111 go through invul, 0.741 go through FnP, 0.574 after IWND

Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hits 2.5 tiimes, wounds 2.083 times, 1.389 wounds go through


Smashfucker wins handily. It takes him 3 rounds of combat to take down Fuegan, while Fuegan will have done 1.849 wounds to Smashfucker.

Fulgrim next.

>>28753788
That seems considerably biased, Space Marines only occasionally run psykers but eldar run them all the time(i have yet to write a list without one since i started in 4th) and they have a titanic effect on duels. This is why retinues are dumb.

You know what else is random? Dice at all.

Despite the low probability it is entirely possible that anyone with 4 attacks kills this dude before he can strike even once, it's entirely possible.

Hence, especially when you aren't telling me what retinue each side has other than the space marine, it's really a bad idea to have retinues at all.

I'd love to see these calculations without bullshit retinues - not that it would improve other's chances, but rather that they're dumb.

Anyway, this thread's been fun.

>>28734586
>Saint Celestine - Dead after one phase, with -0.28 wounds dealt in turn.

Isn't it impossible for St Celestine to be dead in one phase? As she'd get back up again for another go?

>>28753865
Well, without an apothecary smashfukka would have only 5+ fnp.

How would Ironfather Smashfucker square up against his own father, Ferrus Manus? Not sure how to work out the Primarch's retinue, but I'm curious.

>>28753826
I like you much better than OP's vague retinue stuff.

I think OP biased the retinue's in favor of the Smashfucker side to make the enemy heroes look worse.

Anyway. Let the 1v1's commence.

I'm gonna calculate the odds that asurmen can kill smashfucker in one round with soulrazor. It's gonna be super low

>>28753925
Oh, fuck me, The Sword of Asur is Master-crafted. This takes forever.

>>28753671
Smashfucker vs Fulgrim REVENGANCE

I'm rolling this assuming that Fulgrim and Smashfucker are fighting in a duel. I'm also assuming that Fulgrim's extra attack ability works off his opponent's base initiaitve.

One on one

Fulgrim gets 8 attacks, 5.333 hit, 3.555 wound, 1.185 go through invul, 0.790 go through FnP, gains back 0.166 wounds from IWND for 0.623 wounds total.

Smashfucker gets 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 2.083 wound, 0.694 go through invul, gains back 0.166 from IWND for 0.527 wounds total.

When Smashfucker hits the 3 wound threshold

Fulgrim gets 8 attacks, 5.333 hit, 3.555 wound, 1.185 go through invul, 0.987 go through FnP, gains back 0.166 wounds from IWND for 0.821 wounds total.

When Smashfucker hits the 1 wound threshold

Fulgrim gets 8 attacks, 5.333 hit, 3.555 wound, 1.778 go through invul, 1.481 go through FnP, gains back 0.166 wounds from IWND for 1.314 wounds total.

Fulgrim wins this. Through 5 rounds there's 3.709 wounds cased, but has to take a 6th to cause an overkill of 5.023 wounds to Smashfucker. Smashfucker causes 3.167 wounds in return.

Also I fucked up Angron's fight, I forgot that Smashfucker looses eternal warrior when he's down to 2 wounds. Angron would have killed Smashfucker in 4 rounds, while taking3.502 wounds in return.

>>28753925
Thanks bro.

>>28741031
hmmm... FnP and IWND versus the BT's rerolls in a challenge. Interesting.

>>28754356
Wouldn't the fight be considerably longer? I mean, IWND would restore 0.333 wounds a turn, not 0.1666, right?

>>28754542
IWND is rolled every friendly turn, so every other phase of combat. To simplify it I just halved the bonus and added it to every phase.

>>28754570
>>28754542
Wait I'm retarded, at the end of every friendly turn would mean every other turn, so every 4th combat phase (2 phases per turn) pretty much. IWND would be even less, 0.088 wounds returned per combat phase. Or am I thinking about this all wrong?

Hey guys, OP here. Thanks for keeping the math up.
A couple of minor points: I realize that calculating everthing with retinue is dubious at best, but people demanded it last time, so I included them to the best of my knowledge. Seems like I just can't win.
I did in fact include all rerolls from Mastercrafted, Shred, Preferred Enemy, Stalker whereever applicable.
Guys like Lucius and Straken fold more or less instantly, where is the fun in working that out?
Celestine, Necrons and Yarrik might very well get up after being pasted, but none of those guys pack the punch necessary to actually do anthing to Smashfucker.

>>28754570
>every friendly turn
Seriously? I always assumed it was every player turn?
Oh wow, I suck badly, it seems.

>>28753965
Okay, Asurmen vs Smashfucker.
We die in 3 combat phases to this beastly guy. Let's see if we can exile smashfucker before he kills us.

I'm not doing massive probability trees for Mastercrafting, so I just gave his first attack per round rerolls to hit, yes this is strictly worse, but it will take ages to calculate any other way.

With WS7 S5, AP2 and A4, we actually have some good chances to deal damage, Asurmen is always a surprising combatant.

Google has helped me calculate these answers (hail google).


I'm going to make the assumption that Soulrazor functions like a force weapon because it's worded in the exact same way(i checked) and remove from game is super instant death so there are no FNP rolls to be made.

Each round there is a 4% chance that we can soulrazor this poser's ass, giving us a 11.5% chance overall to just up and tell Smashfucker to piss off.

11.5% chance to off him with soulrazor before we bite it? I've seen worse.

Lets give this joker the jitters: Horrify gives him -3ld.
We then have a 20.1% chance to throw him into oblivion each round leaving us with a 50.7% chance to throw him out of the game with horrify in effect over the three combat phases.

>>28754707
IWND can't return more wounds than maximum and only takes effect in friendly turns.
Ergo he can't IWND until he takes a wound in the first place.

>>28754729
Yeah, sorry for kinda flipping on ya there.

Here's one for the dies in 2 turns crowd

Vaylund Cal
Sons of Medusa, Master of the forge
2 strength 10 attacks, Servoharness, toughness 6 with 3 wounds, has an iron halo, causes fear.

>>28754997
Oh, and Asurmen does .96 wounds before dying - wholly independent of soulrazor which I guess means he has a minutely small chance of dealing 4 wounds at once and jibbing him giving him. If we make the assumption that being as that normally we will never have taken a wound off if we Soulrazor kill but that obviously we can't soulrazor if we've already killed him with it we can multiply the number of soulrazor-killing wounds by 4 for the number of wounds he will most likely have to arrive at .46 wounds on average over three combat phases for soul razor.

This brings Asurmen to 1.42 wounds before biting it.

Which, while it looks really good, probably isn't your best bet, although, if you had to, that's still some damn good damage before death.


And this my friends is why statistics are not to be trusted. Asurmen at least looks beast on paper :P.

>>28755260
You are aware that causing fear is completely useless against space marines, daemons, phoenix lords, Swarmlord, etc. It's not even worth noting in this scenario because I have yet to see someone posted who isn't immune to fear as a contender.

>>28754997
>>28755266
Does Soulrazor actually activate on a hit, or is it on a unsaved wound? Because if it is the latter, then he never gets to even activate it.

>>28755329
Oh christ. This would also count against ALL forceweapon users in the list, I just realized. Unless they actually manage to shove past the 1wound threshold, Force Weapons won't even activate, so no ignoring FW for those guys...

>>28754997
Blade of Asur is +1S? Well, crap, I totally missed that somehow. I've always used the guys as S4 whenever I brought him along.

>>28755329
That's why I said not to trust statistics, Soulrazor - on unsaved wounds enemy takes a ld check if enemy fails they are removed from play. (it is worded the same as force but doesn't require psychic check to work and instead removes from game)

It is off by a bit, but should not be too far.

It would probably be easiest for me to write a program that uses randomly generated values to simulate actually playing out the duel 100million times to get the actual value's approximate answer.

Speaking of which, one of these days I am going to write a duel simulator program to give me accurate results without all the work.

This specific problem has no easy way to calculate the answer by hand.

The further I dig into it the more I have to cut corners to get an approximate value.

>>28755578
Lol, yeah, S5 AP2 is nice for a character that is kind of mediocre at the shooting he's supposed to be beast at. Seriously, he has a twinliked DA catapult and BS7. Jain Zar has a better ranged weapon than him....

>>28755657
Yeah, I encountered pretty much the same issues. Disarming Blow and Stalker were the first things to give me massive headaches when I first tried to map them out.
I guess there was a reason why I failed math twice in school.

>>28755679

Could be worse. St Celestine is BS 7 and doesn't even have a pistol.

>>28734574

Just a quick aside on Be'lakor.

He actually pushes through more wounds if you use smash with him, as it denies Ironfather his FnP.

>>28755784
Nice catch, though I wonder if the loss in attacks makes up for the FnP avoidance.

>>28755808

Mastercrafted gives 2.66 attacks with smash.

4 attacks normally.

plus with the loss of eternal warrior, he'd very likely lose sometime during the third phase I'm thinking.

>>28753917
Dude, Manus will fuck him up hard. T7 3++ iWND -AND- a 6+ FnP? With a S10 mega-hammer that strikes at initiative?

For the Mathammer guys, Ferrus is:
WS7 BS6 S7 T7 W6 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/3+
iWND (Primarch), FNP 6+ (Iron Hands), AND has an additional S8 AP 2 attack at initiative from his servo arm due to RAW in the HH books.
His hammer is S:x2 AP:1 Melee, Strikedown, Concussive

So he has 4 S10 AP1 attacks and an additional S8 AP 2 attack every round at I5.

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Since no one has done this, I've tried to calculate Smashfucker vs super apoc Avatar.
Smashfucker is accompanied by an apothecary as a counterpart to Phoenix Lords who buff Avatar.
Avatar has Crushing Blow and Disarming Strike powers.
I've assumed disarm working 3/5 times or in rounds 1,3 and 5 while in 2nd and 4th Smashfucker still has his hammer.
I've also assumed that the first round is friendly for Smashfucker.

Round One:

Avatar swings 11 times, hits 7.26, does around 6 wounds, 2 are unsaved, 1 gets through FnP, 0.66 gets trough IWnD.
Smashfucker strikes back with 5 lightning claw swings, hits 2.5 times, wounds 0.775 times, causes 0.51 unsaveds.

Round Two:

Avatar does the same work again but Smashfucker has no IWnD now. So he causes 1 wound.
Iron Father strikes back with hammer now, 5 swings, 2.5 hits, around 2 wounds, 1.3 is unsaved.

At this point Avatar has suffered around 1.8 wound, Smashfucker 1.66.
Smashfucker has three or two wounds so Chain's bonus to FnP is no more.

Round Three:

Avatar swings 11 times, hits 7.26, does around 6 wounds, 2 are unsaved, 1 and 1/3 get through FnP, 1/3 is regened by IWnD so 1 unsaved wound is caused.
Smashfucker has lightning claws again, so causes the same 0.51 unsaved wounds.

Now Avatar has from 3 to 2 wounds while Iron Father has from 2 to 1.

Round Four:

No IWnD again, Avatar causes 1 and 1/3 more wounds and statistically this is enough to kill Iron Father who had around 1.33 wound at this point.

Smashfucker loses it but for the god incarnate apoc formation he gives a damn good exhausting fight stripping Avatar of Khaine off 3 wounds.

P.S. Perhaps using smash Avatar could do this faster.

>>28755924

Wait, brain isn't working, lemme work out how many attacks it's supposed to actually be...

>>28738930
Change the first sentence to read “The Titansword is a force-sword with the Master-crafted special rule and the Daemonbane rule (see page 54).”

Nope.

just one question, what the hell do you mean by negitive wounds?

>>28756016
Means that the attacker is unable to cause another wound to Smashfucker, and he's able to regenerate it.

>>28755945
He has 5 attacks baseline, reduced to 3 for smashing. Hitting on 3+, with one reroll is 2.67 hits.
Of those 2.22 wound, 0.74 go past the 3++, though IWND still applies.
Not too shabby.
Smash might also work out in the Avatar's favor, I think.

>>28756196

I was scratching my head because I KNEW my maths was wrong, it actually works out to be 2.22 hits with one re-roll.

You're turning a 66:33 - hit:miss into a 88:11 - hit:miss.

Jesus, I've hammered out that maths before but couldn't for the life of me remember doing it.

Chapter master cant get Command squad. What to do ?

>>28756557
Bring a librarian or a chaplain along. He can, and you get to buff the squad with Hatred and Fearless or Biomancy.

>>28755938
Now thrown him against a Transcendent Shard

>>28756641
He has a shittone of special rules due to being a Garantuan, but I will try.

>>28756641
Strenght D Transliminal Movement and Wave of Withering make that kinda pointless. One hit and he's gone.
Melee only the shard does 0.23 wounds a turn to Smashfucker,while taking 0.56 wounds in return. But then stomp happens, with a 1/6 chance on instantly killing Smashfucker again, or at least adding a 4/6 chance to cause another 0.06 wounds. Both can and will happen three times. And afterwards the shard can just move out of melee as he wishes to.

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>>28741847
This?

>>28741433
>69 phases
So fitting.

>>28756845

That's the one. Though, come to think of it, "Smashfucker" isn't a particularly Imperial sounding name...

>>28752551
This. The wound doesn't count as unsaved until it gets through FnP.

Source: Fuegan and the way his "better when wounded" special rule doesn't kick in if he passes his FnP (as it counts as a saved wound).

Force weapons don't prevent FnP.

>>28758078
Scratch that. Seemed it got FAQ'd.

Force > FnP, apparently.

>>28755784
This. Avatar should also be calculated using smash to bypass FnP (avatar also has 4++ in the FAQ, rather than he standard daemon 5++ - not sure if that was factored in to calculations, as it's easy to forget/overlook).

>>28758182
>(avatar also has 4++ in the FAQ
Source pls? There's nothing beside shadow weaver in FaQ.

>>28756845
Snrk. That got a giggle out of me.

>>28758431
Huh. Must have been reading an old FAQ or something. I just remember reading it recently and being "well THAT'S pretty bullshit".

>>28755938
Smashfucker ALWAYS has It Will Not Die.

So in summary if say a Chaos Lord chose wisely to run from, Chaptermaster Smashfucker it wouldn't be dishonorable considering the loyalist can bitchslap Kharn, Lelith, and many others easily.

>>28759394
Lol no. The 6th edition codex demands that all characters must duel Smashfucker for the glory/amusement of the gods. That's how you live to be a 10, 000-year-old veteran of the long war, apparently.

>>28759621

Wait, does the Chaos codex force them to fight like Saturday morning cartoon villains or something?

>>28759721
>>28759394
In lore.

Generally, Khornates do NOT shrink away from a challenge. Do to so would anger the blood god.

Champions of other gods are less pressured to die fruitless against hopeless odds.

What about Phoenix Lord Asurmen?
Surely he'd stand a better chance than Karandras, especially with the fancy diresword

>>28759779

Well at least it makes sense for devotees of a war god. For a minute I thought all Chaos Lords had to engage in challenges rather than going "lol nope" and running.

>>28759903
ALL chaos characters MUST issue and accept challenges in the 6th edition, despite how utterly out of character that is for anyone who isn't a crazed berserker with no sense of self-preservation.

>>28755933
So. Ferrus Manus vs Smashfucker. Both without any retinue.
Ferrus Swings 4 times, hits 2.67 times, wounds 2.22 of those, 0.74 slip past the 3++.
Servoarm swings once, hits 0.67 times, wounds 0.56 times, 0.19 go past the invul, 0.12 past the FnP. A total of 0.86 wounds suffered, but regen takes care of 0.16 of that. So a total of 0.7 wounds taken this phase.
Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 1.67 times. 0.55 go past the invul, 0.46 past the FnP. IWND takes off 0.16, so 0.3 wounds taken this phase.
>>28759800
Asurmen swings 4 times, hits 2.67 times, wounds 1.33 times. 0.43 slip past the invul. Not enough to push past the 1wound threshold needed to activate Soulrazor, so FnP works and reduces the damage taken further to 0.3. IWND bumps this down to 0.14 wounds taken.
Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 times. Invul reduces this to 1.04 wounds taken. Concussive now kicks in, making both strike at the same time.
Asurmen swings again as before, doing another 0.43, but still no total wound suffered, so still no Soulrazor. 0.28 wounds taken.
Smashfucker punches another 1.04 wounds into Asurmen, who now sits on 2.08 wounds taken.
Asurman once again fails to do enough damage to ptoc Soulrazor. 0.42 wounds taken by now
Smashfucker kills Asurmen.

Warlord traits were not considered, but Asurmen has a very decent chance of rolling Fate's Messenger, allowing him to reroll saves of 1, so he'd last a bit longer, and Ambush of Blades, so he'd get to reroll all ones to wound for one phase. With those two he may very well push past the one-wound threshold and activate Soulrazor, giving him a 4% chance of offing Smashfucker.

>>28759721
>not giving your chaos space marines greenstuff mustaches so they can twirl the ends while they taunt loyalists

>>28760227
how about smashfucker vs this chaos lord at here?>>28753145

he'll be ws6 t5 3++ eternal warrior with a powerfist and 4 attacks. ichor blood does an automatic s4 ap5 hit to who ever wounds the chaos lord, not that it helps much.

>>28760022

... Seriously? Even Tzeentchian ones? Surely they'd just "lol nope" their way out of it because of planning and bullshit!

>>28760348
well you could throw a puny cultist champ at it, but then next turn you must challenge/accept. not much hope in a straight up fight, that's why we got access to say telepathy powers.

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Just saw these on FW. I now know which shield to use for my chaptermaster.
>>28760278
He wouldn't need the Skull, though. T5 would be enough.
Again, no retinue for either guy.
The lord attacks 4 times, hits 2 of those, wounds 1.67 times, 0.55 wounds slip past the invul, 0.37 past the FnP and 0.21 after IWND.
Smashfucker attacks 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 times. And 0.69 go past the invul. Not enough to activate Ichor Blood this turn.
This goes on for 5 phases until the lord keels over, during which Smashfucker would have taken another 0.39 wounds on top of the 1.05 wounds the lord inflicted on him.
Not bad at all.

>>28758182
>>28758431
>>28758905
Yeah, turns out I was looking at the April FAQ for their previous codex. Also had things like "Howling Banshees are Initiative 10 on the charge, even if they charged through cover or the enemy has defensive grenades", which should have clued me in, seeing as that's why everyone bitches about Howling Banshees (lol no grenades) in their new codex.

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>>28760348
EVERY character in the book, including chaos cultist champions and non-devout special characters who really should know better (like Fabius Bile and Ahriman), suffers from the "must challenge The Avatar/Swarmlord/Smashfucker to single combat!" Chaotic Retardation rule. Quite how that makes sense if you're playing them as one of the atheist legions like Alpha Legion and Night Lords is beyond me.

> Even Tzeentchian ones?
Yup. Your Thousand Sons aspiring sorceror is forced to shove his unthinking dust-bodyguards aside in order to ONE-ON-ONE FAGGOT any enemy character he gets near. If he kills him, he may immediately develop extra eyes or turn into a spawn, despite the Rubric of Ahriman specifically preventing them from mutating. Fucking Games Workshop.

Are there any feasible C'Tan shard builds that could take smashfucker reliably in combat?

>>28760227
You can't IWND wounds you have yet to take. IWND doesn't increase your wounds beyond starting total, in addition we have to randomize whose turn it is because IWND doesn't work on enemy turns. So IWND should be less than that. Plus your math fails to include the chance of soulrazor procs in overall damage dealt and that soulrazor also prevents IWND if it works.

TLDR: your math is shit.

>>28761386
Entropic strike and time's arrow. Best case scenario he fails the initiative test, although it'll probably end in him losing his 2+ save and 1 or 2 bikers dying alongside the shard. Although if you wanna be sneaky, go with time's arrow and gaze of death and keep some scarabs nearby so the shard will regenerate a wound at the end of every round of combat.

Don't suppose anyone wants to do the math for a generic necron overlord with T5, scythe and MSS or Jain Zar with her 4/6 of the time forcing smashfucker to use his LC instead of the hammer - letting her take a 2+ armor save against all his attacks most of the time.

T4 2+ armor vs S4 LC isn't the funnest of times, at least OP gave the guy shred, cuz otherwise that would suck big time.

>>28761615
Actually looking at this with his 4+ save and toughness 7 Smashfucker only does about 1.111 wounds every round of combat and if you charge a 10 man scarab unit into the combat he wont get any rerolls with the C'tan regenerating that wound at the end of every round of combat he'll just be locked in there until he fails the initiative test.

>>28760431
Black Mace it is. How does this sound?
Chaos Lord 65
--Palanquin of Nurgle 40
--MoN 15
--Sigil of Corruption 25
--Black Mace 45 (replace bolter to keep the power weapon's +1 attack)
190 points total.

So you'd have a Chaos Lord with T5, 5 wounds, and 5 attacks base.
How would he do?

>>28761700
Won't go through all the math but smashfucker is a good enemy for the cube since with his 3++ and 4+ you wont do any damage with your 3 attacks so you are better off forcing a characteristic test after you do a wound or 2 to him.

>>28761815
that lord isn't gonna be doing much with an ap4 weapon, despite the toughness test and d6 extra attacks. 2+ armor with 5+ feel no pain means your lord will be working extra hard. it'll probably get dragged out since the lord can't be instant killed

>>28761941
Fishing for 1's is always an option. Trick is to get Smashfucker to roll a 6 on that T test.

Honestly a lot of these situations hinge on the rest of his squad dying so the best way to beat him is to kit out a character to hold him up for at least 3 rounds of combat while his bikers get killed . Good example being stuff like thunderhammer terminators or lychguard both of which will kill off the retinue pretty quickly and give the character fighting smashy with rerolls and smashy getting dropped to a 5+ fnp.

>>28762012
err lets see that's less something like less then 2% that he'll fail a save, feel no pain and toughness test. you're a loose cannon warlord anon, shine on. i'll be over here with my sorcerers keeping the fuck away from this guy going around monster hunting.

>>28762192
It's either that or parking a Warpsmith with the Burning Brand behind a Forgefiend. I'm not a fan of psychic powers.

>>28762336
they're not what they once were in 5th, ignoring lash for the moment, but they're hilarious when they go off and ruin the enemy. and now that psychic hoods/runes of warding have been nerfed the playing field is leveled.

you're missing out on pissing off your foe by making him shoot one of his own guys or make smashbane and his command squad kill themselves.

and who doesn't like surprise force weapons? answer is grey knights and monstrous creatures

>>28761815
Black mace daemon prince is probably better due to smash giving AP2.

>>28762566
Using Huron Blackheart, I enjoyed Spontaneous Combustion, but that's about it.

>>28761815
Lord swings 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 times. 0.35 go past armor, 0.23 go past the FnP. IWND handles all but 0.07 wounds.
Smashfucker also swings 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 times. 1.04 go past the invul.
After 5 phases the lord is dead, with Smashfucker having taken 0.35 wounds, but possibly had to take one toughness test depending on the way wound accumulation is calculated for such matters.

>>28759221
Yes, which doesn't work on enemy turns.

>>28763629
OP here. I realized as much.
That's part of the reason why I'm redoing all the calculations, without retinue for anybody this time.
For the time being I can only appologize for my fuckup(s).

>>28763864
That being said, I will be quite busy with work from tuesday to friday, so I don't think I'll be able to get that done before the weekend.
Assuming anybody still cares by then, of course.

>>28763864
can't please everyone anon, but i do commend your effort to try. regardless we now have evidence that smashbane can go toe to toe with the heavy weights in 40k.

>>28735024
but... his bike is newer than yours by almost 10,000 years.

>>28763864
Your efforts are much appreciated, based Smashfucker-anon. Would appreciate another go around now you've had some feedback on your maths.

>>28763864
Yeah, smashfucker is really time consuming to calculate for. Your effort is appreciated.

Despite him getting more than a little too much help from his abilities we do stand on evidence that he is a contender for best combat character, probably stands as such too because he isn't a SC. After all, Skarbrand is unplayable entirely, swarmlord dies to dakka, and ghazgull is mediocre.

Meanwhile You can have as many smashfuckers as you please in Apoc, they have the mobility and durability to survive as well, well beyond anyone who can beat him.

My only regret is that now one can claim that any space marine captain is superior to every single named character ever....because space marines didn't get enough wank as is....

>>28764869
>Meanwhile You can have as many smashfuckers as you please in Apoc
>multiple smashfuckers as all the clan leaders of the Iron Hands join together on bikes

By the gods, how horrifying.

>>28764869
>Meanwhile You can have as many smashfuckers as you please in Apoc

Are you sure you take multiples of the same unique wargear? That seems pretty nonsensical, but I'm not really familiar with Apocalypse rules.

You can definitely take Smashfucker and his little brother, Smashkill, as a tag-team in regular 40k by taking an allied detachment though.

Still waiting for a Smashfucker v. Primarch update.

>>28760629
>lol no grenades
The best bit? it was the same in teh 4th ed codex and was only Erratad 6 months before the new codex.

>>28767916
The fact that dedicated melee units like banshees and warp talons don't get grenades and shit like devastators do boggles my mind.

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>>28735024
Sammael called. Y'all a bunch of bitch-ass punks.

>>28769833
>>28767916
>Gameswokshop in charge of actually playtesting their codexes

>>28738362

SM Chapter Master to start with. Iron Hands chapter tactics for 6+ FNP and IWND. Artificer armour and Shield Eternal for 2+/3++ saves and Eternal Warrior. Add a bike for mobility and +1 Toughness, and a thunder hammer to hit like a truck. I may have missed something.

>>28776496
That's Smashkill. Smashfucker is the even more ridiculous version using gear from the Iron Hands supplement (Chains of the Gorgon and a lightning claw in place of the Shield Eternal, along with any other relics you want to give him).

>>28770947
Next Dark Angel Codex will have Imperial Jetbikes. I can feel it in my bones.