File: Kirby's Dreamland Adventure v1.pdf (4.14 MB, PDF)

4.14 MB PDF

Here is the initial mock up of the game book. It is a heavy work in progress, but gives an idea of the art style that will be used in the book as well as some core concepts that were settled upon. It has yet to be edited for the latest discussions, but keep it on hand for reference.

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Hehe, you posted just as I was about to post the thread! Anywho, welcome back from E3 everyone (new Kirby game!), and to parrot what Candle has said:

Previously on DD6:

• The importance of names: Namefaggotry ensured.
• What makes Kirby...Kirby: A based anon gives us a rousing speech on how to make a Kirby RPG, steering us to a radically new direction to make the system closer to the games as well as causing much of the old leveling system to be discarded.
• The ability system was overhauled several times.
• A side-scrolling grid was implemented with an X and Z axis.
• Traits were discussed.
• Vehicles were briefly discussed.
• Flying was briefly alluded to.
• Meido ability is a thing, so if you wanted an RPG where you could play as a Fairy Maid, this would be it.
• I was rambling about unrelated things like the present state of the online Kirby community.
• Everybody bolted to watch Nintendo's vidyas, causing the last thread to plummet to its death.

And now, link to the last thread:

Last thread >>32665713
(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/32665713/)

Feel free to pitch in and comment as needed!

On an aside, here is an example of my drawin' skillz. Well, actually, these are more of just sketches that I drew up in ten minutes after buying a load of crayons and colored pencils. What do ya think?

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>>32713654
I like the doodles, if you made Kirby's handpuffs a little more round they'd be spot on with that shading you got there

On to some business since we've got at least two people alive from last thread. Flying. Every controllable character in all of the Kirby games has had some method of jumping more than once, Kirby puffs himself up, others have wings, a few have hover technology or jets...And then there's the majority that sort of fart sparkles and can jump from that. I'm talking the 'sidekicks' from Superstar, a healthy minority of them only have that ability because the game demands it as such. Because of this, I think there should be several degrees of Flying. Like, legitimate flying with wings(Brunto, Birdon, Meta Knight, etc.), inhaling and flapping(Kirby, several small enemies), Tech-Based(Capsule J, UFO), and then a category that would define Double Jumping and Super Jumping. Now, the last two would be tricky on our part because it requires giving the less than stellar jumping prowess of a good chunk of the cast something special. All of these different Flying types would be a Trait that can define the vertical capabilities of a character, with their own advantages and fall backs like in the games(High-Jump is going to over shoot it's target if it's not well used, UFO can't do shit with ladders). Any way of breaking down Flying by this method?

>>32714083

Give different forms of flight varying capabilities when actually in flight: For instance, wing users such as Cupies and U.F.O.s can hover indefinitely, and would be the most capable of maintaining altitude, while others like Kirby require constant attention in order to keep themselves afloat, while yet others like Starman can reach max altitude rapidly, but struggle to keep themselves afloat. Each form of flight would have a range of traits: "Boost", how many tiles they can go up in a single round, "Weight, how many tiles they can go down in a single turn, and "Glide", which subtracted from weight gives the minimum amount of tiles a flier must fall per turn.

>>32714378
I like this, it's not too many Traits to keep track of, makes sense to seperate Creatures by(especially Weight), and adds that level of depth to the Z-axis that we need.

Hmmm. Shall aerial movement be 9-direction, or use the 4 cardinal directions per flight movement?

>>32715455
Well the 8 points of a compass make sense, and then if the Trait allows for it hovering in place. Just the cardinal directions seems a bit too limiting, even the original games allowed forward moving that lists more towards 8-point movement.

I think it would be in our best interests to use a guinea pig Creature to establish these varying degrees of Flying and the Traits that effect them. This will also help with giving us some ground to stand on for making a Creature Sheet. Any monsters to volunteer? I vote we start stating up either Bonkers, Sword Knight, or Capsule J. These three have very clear distinct differences in how they move in-game and how their powers work, giving us a nice basis for what kind of information should be noted and available.

Hey guys! I live.

I'm not gonna update the PDF for a long time - not until we have a solid basis for the system. Why update it with every change, when the system is so mercurial as-is? When it gets more solidified, I'll start throwing stuff in.

I'm really excited to work with the "sidescrolling RPG" angle, it's innovative and fun.

>>32714378
I'm liking the start of this for sure. Here's what I got:

Jumping - These are based on derived stats, essentially. Your basic Jump value is equal to your Roundness, and your basic Weight value is equal to your Toughness. Traits can modify Jump and Weight. None of these values can be less than 1.

When falling, every turn you go down spaces equal to your Weight, and you can maneuver horizontally equal to your Roundness minus Weight. Again, none of these values can be less than 1. This latter value is the same value for moving on the ground - since it's repeated, let's call it Speed.

So let's say we have a Small Waddle Dee - Small Trait is -1 Toughness -1 Courage +2 Roundness. Waddle Dees are 'average' - so, all 2s - so that gives us a Weight of 1 (1 Toughness) and Jump of 4 (4 Roundness).

That means each turn mid-air, Waddle Dee falls down 1 space, and can move horizontally up to 3 spaces.

If we had a Large Waddle Dee - -2 Roundness, +1 Toughness and +1 Courage - then we get a Jump of 0 (0 Roundness) and a Weight of 3 (3 Toughness. So we fall 3 spaces every turn we're mid-air, and can maneuver horizontally up to 1 space as we fall.

Kirby-style floating - This could be as simple as "You can jump an extra time mid-air at -1 Jump." It could be improvable, since Kirby can do more than just 'double-jump'.

Hover - These people can just move in any direction on the map equal to their Speed (remember, Roundness minus Weight, minimum of 1.)


To be continued...

>>32716038
Obviously Hi-jump and its ilk would just modify the Jump value, but not your Roundness. Meaning, you go up very fast, but still might not have the best Speed as you're coming down to maneuver.

Dive Bomb attacks, like the Sword down aerial, would just immediately send you to the ground from mid-air and land a hit on an enemy you land on or adjacent to.

Air Dashing, like jet packs and stuff, would modify Speed when in mid-air but not Weight or Jump. Sprinting would be its complement, modifying Speed when on the ground but not mid-air.

>>32716038

Just throwing a random idea: what if kirby's floating is done in a slightly different way?
Ergo: taking a stacking -1 penalty for each extra jump, until you can go no more higher -and start to descend- ?

>>32716152
What would be a sensible number of times till the negative stack becomes too great for a roll?

>>32716038
>>32716079
Good to see you alive Inanimate! And I like this concept a lot, it easily integrates the Qualities in a logical manner while allowing for a lot of aerial maneuvering for all Creatures.
>>32716152
This works nicely for multi-jumping Flight classes

>>32716152
>>32716415
There's also the matter with the Wing and beetle abilities and creatures like bronto burts.

>>32716152
>>32716415
Yep, that's about how I described it. I had the system I had in place so people can double or triple jump. (It'd be Improvable.) Kirby's jumping is only unlimited in some games, so I think it'd make more sense, game-design-wise, to limit it to three or four or so.

When you can no longer Jump - so your Jump value is 0 - then that's when your jumping would stop.

>>32716468
As far as I can tell, Multi-Jumping and Air-Dashing would cover wing-flapping and gliding, respectively. Am I wrong?

>>32716529
Not quite, since in the games most winged enemies can stay aloft for a lot of time and rarely you see one landing on the ground. also for gliding i feel there should be some ule abut the unit being able to stabilize and decently... glide in the air.

>>32716668
All this discussion on flight mechanics is getting way too complicated. We don't need a half-dozen different traits to just tell someone how well they can fly.

The way I see it there are 2 main methods of flight.

1) Hovering. This is mainly cupid/UFO, and pretty much means that the character can stay still in midair while shooting or attacking as long as they want. Perhaps wing or other heavily flight based abilities could be added to this category

2)Floating. This is what kirby traditionally does, puffing up and floating. It does prevent the character from staying airborne while fighting well, as attacking causes you to unpuff and drop.

With those two, we can cover pretty much the entire spectrum, as long as we tie an existing stat to jump height of characters without flight, and come up with a common rate for falling, with exceptions for certain cases, such as parasol or stone.

>>32716529
To an extent. For instance, Wing Ability eventually flaps itself into exhaustion like normal puffing does, but Beetle can slowly hover around infinitely.
(btw thanks to everyone in this project I went out and bought Triple Deluxe, fucking loving it.)

>>32716739
I'm not digging this simplification of Hovering mainly because it leaves no insentive to be on the ground. Indefinite flying would be too unbalanced. There should be some restriction on it unless we put something like UFO as an Epic Ability or something like that.

>>32716789
Well... hover enemies generally don't chill on the ground. so it makes sense. You're right, its unbalanced. But it makes sense.

If we make it a Native trait - which as far as I can tell means that only creatures that have it on their index entry can get it - then it'd be balanced more, since only some creature types could get it.

>>32717211
In that case, come up with some disadvantages for perpetual hovering. Like, how would they go down ladders? Would picking things up off the ground be more of a hassle? Would certain puzzles be more difficult without anything touching the ground? Stuff like that.

>>32717302
Exactly. And it could be like in Small and Large, where you trade a bonus for some drawbacks.

Hovering characters, for instance, could be downed by attacks while mid-air very easily, and take damage when they fall. Or they could move very slowly while in mid-air, but faster on the ground. Or they could have to roll to move.

>>32717523

Between Fairies, Cupies, Bronto and the other fliers, this makes the majority of them very fragile...Sorta like in the games themselves.

I take it the other drawbacks are by the creature in question:

And as for native traits, each creature should have a list of both required and optional natives. For instance, in order to be a Bronto Burt, Bronts would need the flier tag or whatever equivalent we're coming up with for the flight system. In addition, one could opt for Large in order to play as a Large Bronto Burt, but it would not be mandatory to do so. This extends to abilities as well, with some characters requiring to start with at least one ability, like gaboro, while others will have the option to start with an ability but can opt out, like fairies.

So, how would currency work again? Perhaps some strays could act as wandering salesmen, willing to barter with the player using friendship as a base, with some areas having more formal stores that exchange currency for items, with the possibility of haggling, and then vending machines that would just dispense items upon being a set amount of money.

>>32717954
Yep. Small and Large and other similar traits would be 'optional' natives - they can only be bought at char-gen.

>>32718672
The currency used in the anime was called Denden, why not use that?

If I may put my, well I guess 6 cents, into this
For Flying, if we're gonna simplify it into smaller categories, I feel the categories of "Jumper", "effort flying", and "effortless flying". Pardon the dull names. For "Jumper", the character can go up 1.5ish times their natural jump ability and can only stay airborne for half their nat roundness. "Effort jumpers" should categorizes any character who can't stay airborne with out having to puff up, flap, or anything of that variety. Kirby, Bird, Beetle would go into this section since they need to exert effort. To make this a bit more fair, I'd suggest having their air speed = to .3 of their nat speed rounded down (without going below 1), so they can fly, but it's pretty useless in a fight unless the enemy tries charging up a ground based attack. The last one "Effortless" would apply to anything that stays afloat without needing to do any action. Creatures like UFO and Plasma Wisp would go here. Since they only fly, usually, their speed in the sky should be the only speed they get. With also getting grounded being a crippling weakness. (The not being able to climb stairs is also a nice bonus)

For the money thing, why not have (ugh the name escapes me, the Yellow Kirby who had is own name) be a merchant? Since he's considered pretty chill, he wouldn't attack unknown players like regular Kirby would, and since he IS a Kirby, he loves foods. So trading him stars for a piece of flan or trading a maximato for an invincibility candy could be something he does.

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Is there a mechanic for Nightmare Enterprises?
I want to run a game in this setting and have the players be able to buy monsters.

>>32721302
Another downside to effortless flight could be falling slower. Since most other abilities can just fall rather quickly, while those who fly permanently are forced to fly down at their flight speed, which would likely be slower than falling.

>>32721522
Yeah, that totally works, at least until someone forces them down, ie suplex.

>>32721394
Hmm, I may not be a major member, but this idea seems pretty chill for a Kirby Anime based version. I'm actually not sure how enemy spawns work. Since Kirby games usually do a off-screen re-spawn, how would that transition into this. Maybe having Nightmare inc. bring in top of the line Demon Beasts, while the average ones just run amok the land.

>>32721302
Keeby was his name.

>>32721522
I think this and being grounded would be their major weaknesses. Jumping and falling being more efficient than hovering would make it a fair trade.

>>32721394
If anything Nightmare Enterprises could either be a BBEG of a story or they could provide a method of selling equipment/Temp Abilities. I do agree that it should be integrated some way though

>>32721712
Thoughts upon the Keeby Merchant idea?

>>32721761
I like it! It's definitely a good idea.

>>32721749
Nightmare Enterprises can be one of the BBEGs we list in the book.

>>32721828
Woo! How do you think the star monies, or denden as >>32719681 thought of, should be gained? It's usually handed out like candy, but that might make health a non issue then. How about X amount after every kill?

>>32722008
Enemies don't drop cash in Kirby games, why would they here? And I think killing characters, at least in the current rules, is very uncommon. Most characters are gonna end up KO'd, not Done For'd.

I prefer star monies, as it's more consistent to the games, especially recent ones. The anime we can make nods to, but I don't think choosing it over the games is a wise idea.

As for handing it out, it can be a reward for puzzles, and a form of treasure.

>>32722421
That's tons better than what I thought of. Any idea on the star piece to food exchange rate should be? Or would you like to include things other than Health, like temp abilities?

>>32722421
This a hundred times. Treasure chests and quest rewards should be the only way to get Star Bits. They won't even have that big of an impact on the game, the game will be more about exploring or doing things with the abilities and equipment. Abilities you start out the gate with or get later on some how, and equipment can either be found or bought. While it's important we figure out how to get it and what to do with it, money shouldn't be a major mechanic. Involve traveling merchants who sell certain Temp Abilities or use items if you guys really want to make Star Bits worth getting.

>>32722772
we'd have to come up with new items besides the ones that already exists like the invincibility candy or the maxim tomato

>>32726766
I don't think that's necessary. Other times can be generic food, equipment, etc.

>>32721394

Nightmare's Demon Beasts come up on occasion, depending on how fat back you go into the setting . Far enough back, and you'll reach the era in which Dedede possibly negotiated with Nightmare; It's implied during Squeak Squad that he did in fact purchase from Nightmare at one point in the games, even housing a teleporter at the side of his throne room. Hostile versions of some of the normally friendly characters (Bonkers, Chef Kawasaki in the game exist as Demon Beasts in order to justify fighting both fighting them and fighting multiples of them at once.

>>32728563
Using demon beasts would be a good way to avoid the wholesale genocide that usually takes place during Kirby games. Doubly so because most of the enemies would be the same race as the players otherwise.

And a kick to ward the inactivity.

I wonder...If one wanted to play Keeby, how would one go about being a merchant? Advertise wares to strays and attempt to sell to them? Have a goal set towards the amount of star bits you want to earn? Tend to a shop and sell things to all sorts of exotic faces, while sending helpers out to gather more material to sell?

>>32728587

Yeah, between Dark Matter monsters like N-Z and demon beasts, there should be a wide range of things to kill without much remorse.

>>32729379
I think you'd just roleplay that your goal is to gather exotic goods and riches, and you'd have a lot of Friendship and people skills. I

>>32729379

Make selling items to wandering strays a possibility?

>>32731129
Probably just a Friendship roll.

>>32731222

I am now picturing a campaign where a merchant gathers star blocks and sells them to hapless waddle dees in order to slowly build up a fortune.

Also, this got me thinking: You know how enemies usually "respawn" in Kirby games? What if, it's actually the same enemy you're facing every time and you're merely KOing them for the scene, and when you leave and move back they recover, like this system is simplying?

>>32731558
Yeah, that's what I imagined when I said KO's recover at end of scene - AKA, "leaving them behind off-screen", you know?

Alright so I was busy as hell yesterday and couldn't do much but now i'm on to something. Concerning the idea of mounts or the Air Riders.

I think the Air Riders should be limited to specific campaigns that would involve epic amounts of traversing terrain, like if a group needed to get on to the Halberd while it was moving, or something big like that. If someone had, say for instance, Hydra or Dragoon in a campaign then it would get done pretty quickly and overall just be silly. The flight capable ones should be locked off for later on, but should still have some sort of Trait system put to them based on their flight, speed, and weight-- Like a Creature.

The same can be said for the ground-based vehicles like the wagon or any variety of Wheelie. Only for them, they would be locked to a set Flight Trait that amounts to nothing more than a hop and they would appear in earlier campaigns.

>>32732594
Yep, agreed. Items that can move like that can just be given their own Weight, Jump, and Speed.

>>32732594
This all being said, I would like for us to establish certain things involving campaigns. Since there isn't a level up system for the player characters( still need to figure out how leveling moves works. Star Bits and merchants maybe?) how should we determine what makes a campaign easy or difficult? I say we organize them just like that, Easy, Medium, Hard, just like in the games whenever there are difficulty options. They would determine the difficulty of puzzles, the amount of enemies fought in battles, how long the campaign would go on for, and how many bosses there would be and which ones.

Example, a family of Poppy Bros. recently lost one of their sons after having to leave a family picnic in the panic of a storm. It's you(and your team)'s job to find that missing Poppy Bros. So your sent into a forest where the picnic was held and eventually you find the unconscious(KO'd but not Done For'd) Poppy Bros at the roots of a Wispy Woods. After toppling the big tree and carrying the hatted humanoid back to the family, you are rewarded with a picnic basket full of food and some useful items(the basket is useful to) and some Star Bits.

That could be the basis for an Easy campaign, forests tend to be easily traversable in the Kirby games and Wispy Woods is general the first boss you fight in any Kirby game with some exceptions. Maybe there could be one mini-boss and a few puzzles with enemy encounters here and there, but for the most part the ease of the campaign will reflect that point in the games.

>>32732785
One anon suggested last thread that the leveling method would be based off of Copy Scrolls somehow.

And yeah, that sounds good.

>>32732825
How would the Copy Scrolls come into play? That actually sounds like a really cool idea and if they're treated as physical items like a spell tome or something of that nature it could make for good loot in a dungeon crawl or as a quest reward.

>>32732594

Eh, sure the Dragoon, Hydra, and Starship would be limited to special scenarios, but things like the Warp Star appear frequently enough that it wouldn't be great to disclude them entirely. I say, rather give vehicles a certain size in tiles that would make them impractical to use in the enclosed areas that most adventurers would come across, having to leave them at the entrance of a dungeon, the main exception being Wheelies and other creature-vehicles like Moto Shotzo.

And as for other information, possibly have some info on carrying capacity (for instance, the War Star, while a tank would likely require at least two people in order to both drive and fire its weapons), weapons with the vehicle has any, and other stats such as toughness, topped of with any traits.

Also making it so that Wheelies both have creature stats as well as vehicle stats on them. Who wouldn't want to ride Grand Wheelie?

>>32732894
In that case we'd need to go through all of the Air Riders and creature-vehicles and separate them accordingly by some arbitrary power level. Though I'm sticking by my guns with saying Air Riders shouldn't be involved with majorly ground-based campaigns. Let the Wheelies and other ground-based ones have their day!

>>32732894

Well, that and making them expensive, so even if you do start the game with one, you wouldn't want to just run them anywhere at risk of losing them before the tie when you'd REALLY want to have one.

>>32732917

No power levels per say, just "traits" that would function in effect the same way as power levels. Though, Wheelies will ultimately have better utility to your average adventurer then an air machine simply because they're easier to maintain; You only need to feed a Wheelie to repair it, while you can't do the same to a pure machine.

>>32732917

Adding to that, vehicles would be able to be knocked out or done for'ed, just like characters: A Knocked out vehicle is one that has lost mobility but is still structurally intact, while a done for'ed one might as well be junk. In addition, certain vehicles would have a "flammable" trait that would cause them to catch fire upon being knocked out and burn until they done for'ed unless they were repaired in immediate order.

>>32732894
>>32732925
>>32732952
>>32732984
This all sounds like a solid basis for the Mount system, nicely done. If I'm understanding it right they'll be pretty much treated like Creatures with specific Qualities and Traits but need maintenance. Am I getting that?

>>32733017

Yep. Well that, and barring having something haunt (as opposed to possess, which is limited to organic creatures) them, they wouldn't be playable.

>>32733017
Yep, sounds about right. There's nothing limiting Traits to just creatures - Traits can also describe items, Air Machines, etc.

"Ridable" would probably be a trait, and then Air Machines would probably have Hover or Flight, depending on how they work. Wheelies would probably have some form of Dashing trait.

>>32733246

Hmmm, well, actually, Kirby GCN had it so that every helper was ridable to some extent. Not that that would make much sense here; Imagine Dedede trying to piggyback Ribbon, and riding should be limited to things that could handle it (Dedede piggy-backed Kirby in 64, for instance), with a sub-stat showing the capacity of.

Should large creatures take up an extra slot? For instance, assuming the warp star has room for five passengers, mounting Kirby, Meta Knight, Bandana Dee and the King in it would take up all 5 on the virtue that ole' Dedede is large.

Taking it a step further, and colossal creatures (things that a human would consider giant), would be barred from using vehicles entirely.

>>32722772

Maybe 10 stars : 1 food, 50 stars : 1 Maxim Tomato, and 100 stars : 1-up.

>>32733440
Some collosal creatures would be capable of flight OR space travel right?

>>32734639

Yep. It would be inconceivable for Wham Bam Rock to be unable to float, after all.

Of course, speaking of Wham Bam, our 2D plane would need a foreground layer in order to depict him properly. Having a second layer would also open up certain other possibilities when designing a stage, like ranged attackers being able to attack from either the background or the foreground. It would be mostly optional, of course: Not all stages would have both, and one could run an entire game without ever having to include it if they feel it would be too hard to keep track of.

>>32734675
Like kirby's triple deluxe right? that'd be good if implemented right

>>32734748
Yep.

>>32734675
I like the idea of Ranged letting you attack from foreground / background! Super smart!

Problem is, we're representing this on a table, right? It's hard to represent foreground/background with a whiteboard.

>>32734770

Use two boards at once, one to mark the background, the other the foreground, like Battleship.

>>32734881
Heh, oops. Placed my handle into the email field!

>>32734881
Right, but that isn't very visual or simple at all... and having to remember which space correlates to which on the other board would surely get confusing.

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>>32735176

That's a good point. Luckily, it will mostly remain optional except for a couple really specific bosses, but I'm struggling to think of another way that wouldn't require a 3D playing field.

>>32735407
Easy, just put a little counter on objects to indicate if they're in the foreground or background.

>>32735788
But the foreground can have different terrain and scenery as well.

>>32735801
The only time that would be a problem is if there's a large object in the foreground and small objects in the background behind it.

>>32735788

In that case, some sort of compromise perhaps: There would be maps of both the back and foreground, with counters in the "primary" map, or the map that everything is actually recoded on. There would also be a recorded grid for the GM to easily discern the differences between the two when comparing.

>>32737732
The way I see it the main things that will be in the background would be ranged characters trying to get advantage, and walls or large enemies preventing characters from occupying the background space.

Perhaps instead of a full background map, we could have a 'background' status instead. Either you're in the background, or you're not.

Honestly, making the background a full grid is removing one of the best things about the sidescrolling grid idea.

>>32737925

This could work too. Though, giving a full background would drastically increase the depth available to a level's design.

Is there any chance we can get a few examples of Creatures with their Qualities and Traits? If we can get at least a couple down pat then we could have a small group work on the rest of the Creature Codex while discussion continues in the thread.

>>32738844
Stating with something simple like a waddle dee

>>32738844

Lets update ole' Laser Ball from the first thread to current standard:

Laser Ball

C: 1
R: 3
T: 1
F: 1
D: 1
E: 2

S: 2
J: 2
W: 1

Traits:

【Hover】 - Native - A form of flight that allows this creature to float in place, be it through rapidly flapping wings, repelling gravity, or some other obscure force. As a result, weight is also ignored and the user can move in all directions at an equal speed.
【Incorporeal】 - Native - This creature can move thorugh otherwise solid objects, such as walls.

Abilities: 【Laser】 - Native - LVL 1

A strange, hovering life-form that appears to be made of a hard, glassy material, laser balls roam across the surface of Dreamland and other worlds, seeking targets to fire an intense laser beam into. Though the motive behind this hostile behavior remains unknown, some theorise that they are in fact guarding claimed territories.

>>32740330

Less terrible description:

A strange, spherical life-form that appears to be made of a hard glassy material, laser balls roam across the surface of Dreamland and other worlds, seeking targets to fire intense bursts of laser into. Though the motive behind this hostile behavior, as well as most other details about them remains unknown, some theorise that they are in fact guarding areas claimed as territory.

And here's Sword Knight showcasing an example of a creature with a per-defined inventory. Of course, GMs can make any creature start with any item if they will it, but these creatures have a built-in starting inventory. I was also considering making all the Knight enemies' armor separate from their bodies, with Knightly being a trait that delegates them to wearing some form of armor at all times in a gear slot in return for negating the decrease in roundness that armor would theoretically give, giving the effect of them always wearing a suit of plate, but I don't think our current inventory system supports that (though Gigant's shield will still likely be kept separate).

Sword Knight

C: 2
R: 2
T: 2
F: 2
D: 1
E: 1

S: 2
J: 2
W: 2

Traits:

【Knightly】 - Native - In Dreamland, any individual that owns a suit of armor is considered a "knight", and hence most knights you shall encounter will wear some form of protective gear, if they are not the gear themselves, giving them 1 additional point of toughness when blocking.

Abilities: 【Sword】 - Native - LVL 1

Starting Inventory:

Gladius: A bronze shortsword built for stabbing. Some swordsmen prefer their rust resistance over that of their iron counterparts. Bestows Sword. Small weapon. (2/6 chance)

-OR-

Shortsword: A standard-issue, mass produced iron shortsword popular among the warriors of Dreamland. Bestows Sword. Small weapon. (4/6 chance)

-AND-

Hatchet: A very small hand axe, made to be easy to carry and conceal. Bestows Cutter. Small weapon. (1/6 chance)

Sword Knights are a class of knight that take up the blade as their area of expertise, distinguished by their Blade Knight counterparts through supperior equipment, and often training. Many Sword Knights are members of the enigmatic Meta-Knights, while others serve the glutinous King Dedede. Others still have no allegiance, or will even use their arms for petty banditry.

>>32741325

And again, a better version of the description now that I have a chance to actually read it:

Sword Knights are a class of warrior that take up the blade as their area of expertise, distinguished by their Blade Knight counterparts through superior equipment, and often superior training, acting as seniors to their junior. Though all Sword Knights share the same basic uniform, their allegiances vary: Many are members of the enigmatic band of Meta-Knights, while others serve under the banner of the glutinous King Dedede. Others still hold no faction, and will even use their arms to preform petty acts of robbery.

>>32741325
Love it, now can we see how it would be changed for either a Creature that naturally doesn't have an ability getting one or a Creature that doesn't have a native ability?

After building a few more test sheets with the urrent system, I'm thinking about ditching abilities costing one of the 12 allotted points, since the effect is currently making most neutral creatures tougher then their ability-bound counterparts, in turn making it so that to make stats consistent, dozens of "traits" that are really just ways of bypassing the stat limit are being made. Not to mention I don't know how to handle things like Broom Hatter that can either have or not have an ability.

>>32744951

Something else I've noticed is that while a lot of things don't wear much in the name of armor, and such a thing isn't normally that big a concern in the games, lots of other creatures do. Aside from the various Knights, Cappies cap's are something that would have to be represented, and fairynoid (because fairies outnumber humans in this setting) creatures would benefit from a few gear slots greatly. I was thinking give two equipment slots to all creatures, which can be used to deck out most things in some limited form of clothing, without making it too important. Now, since most creatures have feet, shoes will be the most common form of "armor" in the world, and most clothing won't do much beyond act as flavor. Some objects, like armor however, would bestow a trait, usually a bonus to block or even a special move. This purpose is largely for defining the stats of creature further then it is for character growth, and very rarely will you stumble upon a piece of gear that is better then what you started with, or if you didn't start with gear at all, something you would benefit from wearing. This would allow such things as human knights dressed up in plate the same way other creatures are, or Masked Dedede, or Cappies dressed as police men with Baton and Draw. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if someone spent the whole game as a fairy collecting outfits to look pretty in.

>>32745435

What if you had two "passive" slots that you could shove gear into, but couldn't swap inside of battle, while you had an "active" slot for useable items, like a shield, or laser, or dynamite, that you could swap once per turn?

There'd be a difference between passive and active items.

>>32742449

Waddle Dee

C: 2
R: 2
T: 2
F: 2
D: 2
E: 2

S: 2
J: 2
W: 2

Traits:

【Big】 - Native

【Small】- Native

【Golden】- Native

Abilities: 【Spear】 - Spear - LVL 1

Inventory:

Spear: A simple weapon consisting of a wooden shaft and an iron head, made for jabbing a target from a distance. Bestows spear. Small weapon.

A race of small, burgundy creatures with no remarkable skills unto themselves, having the distinction of being the most prolific beings across not only Dreamland but most of the known solar system. Though unassuming and mostly harmless unto themselves, waddle dees are highly adaptable and able to utilize sophisticated machinery in order to accomplish tasks. They're also prone to great variation, such as the case of Giant Waddle ees and Waddle Doos, and many types of waddle dee often gather together in order to form communities and civilizations. The majority of Waddle Dees within Dreamland follow King Dedede's rule of course, but others are led by exceptionally powerful members of their kind known as "King Doos", operating independantly from his authority.

A ghostly Waddle Dee is known as a Wapod.


Thus underscoring the problem with the current system, with creatures with weapons supplying their abilities are no worse off at base then creatures whose abilities are natural, despite the latter giving up a stat point for such. Also, how does one go about buying traits on a creature? Do they sacrifice points from stats in order to deck out on natives? Though I understand that the GM is able to insert whatever available naturals he wants on NPC characters without inhibition, what to do if a player wanted to get some natives?

>>32747115

Typo there, I meant to make those "natives" acquirable traits, making the lower bit of my conversation mostly pointless. Replace "native" with acquirable.

>>32745435
I feel like we're getting way to complex with this. I seem to recall someone saying we wanted kids to be able to play this.

So why are we adding in 2D grids, movement rates, and large amounts of equipment? A Kirby RPG doesn't need any of that stuff. We could go with the original idea of having flight being a binary choice, either you're flying or you're on the ground, altitude isn't a factor.

Similarly, we don't need cloaks, shoulderpads, boots, masks, and whatever else for armor. If you want a character to be heavily armored, why not use the sword knight trait from here >>32741325.

You don't need to bog characters down with equipment. Kirby rarely carries anything around with him. I could very easily see us going with 3 slots per character. 1 storage pouch, and then the two hands. Having both of your hands full could have some sort of generic penalty as well. Maybe have a trait that gives you extra storage slots as well. Bubble let you do that in Squeak squad I think.

The point is, we don't need to turn characters into christmas trees of attire or precisely calculate the falling speeds of every character for the grid. We can have those as options, but the system doesn't NEED those things.

Honestly, there's very few things that an equipment system would do that couldn't be taken care of by traits. The traits in conjunction with abilities is plenty to work with already.

Gotta keep this thread going until tomorrow, is Kirby the only one of his kind?

>>32752267

Nope. Even if by some reason you don't count Meta Knight or Galacta Knight, there's Keeby, Dark Kirby, and the various other multicolored "Kirbies" (Air Ride, sub-games, Kirby Fighters) as well as a considerable number of other members of his kind that are pink (end of Spring Breeze). Needless to say, there's no shortage of puff balls.

>>32748056

We're not adding equipment yet, it was just one consideration we could take to tackle a problem with. Even though this game is mostly about playing Kirby or other members of his kind, I'd still want to see, for instance, something resembling vaguely representing the stereotypical RPG party to be able to exist in the game in some form with the drastically different dynamics taken into account. One of the main beauties of this current system is that you're tough enough to take on bosses from the get-go with the right planning and careful use of your resources. Most of the game will be about exploration and accomplishing big and small tasks, as well as building up relationships with other characters in order to form a party or gather more resources to use.

Making advanced equipment a sort of optional module sounds like a plan though, as I've already prepared the option of simplifying weapons down to just their copy abilities, so it wouldn't hurt to have a system which simply abstracts such things as items into traits, yet when going into "advanced" rules, transforms the traits into items that bestow traits.

We are aiming to make the RPG accessible to young folks, though some of us (mainly myself!) do tend to get carried away until we have somebody like you to remind us of our original goals.

And as for the whole 2D grid, we've decided to add that as a compromise between a full 3D grid where you have to track 26 different directions of motion (which is complex even by RPG standards) and having no grid which abstracts the game. We figured that since the vast majority of Kirby games take place on a TD\\2d plane, it would be a nice simplification of the typical grid system while giving it a uniquely Kirby spin. We're still considering making it optional however, and right now the main users of the grid are levels, with outside areas such as cities and towns still being relativity abstracted.

>>32753135

Making a game is indeed full of tough decisions and compromises, and rarely can you find a way to make everyone fully happy. Hence, while we try to figure out the right system that can balance between all the things we want from the game, we're throwing all sorts of concepts, some for good, some for ill.

>>32753148
In agreement with this >>32748056 anon, there shouldn't be an equipment mechanic in the way of armor. It ends up making things more complex than the original intent of the project. However if Traits can fill the void like with Sword Knight, then we still have a manner of explaining why an armored Creature is at least slightly more tough than something squishy.

I stand by the notion that a slot for a permanent Ability and a Temp Ability are all that someone would need, especially when you take into account they will most likely not be alone(other players, NPCs, DMPCs, Mounts, etc.). Then remember each ability has a variety of moves at certain levels which raises the utility of many powers. There's no need for more than that.

With that out of the way, I reached an epiphany on if someone wanted to play their own Kahrbee. And you know people will want their own Star Warriors. I think it's as simple as treating them as another Creature, their native ability being Copy and their Traits being whatever we set up for puffball flight(extended air time instead of better flight maybe?). If custom crafted puffballs are on the same tier as most other Creatures, it gives the incentive to try out new things instead of making Dirby The Kirby DONOTSTEAL.

>>32753213
Yeah, that has been the suggestion for quite a while.

>>32753222
I keep hopping in and out of the thread forgetting what I've read and reread, my bad. Is there any set method we've got going for distributing Quality points for making the Creature Codex? I see everything ranging in the 1-3s for now, but didn't we establish 1 as minimum and 8 as maximum? Should their be a larger gap between a Creature's high points and low points-- Waddle Dees and Star Warriors not withstanding?

>>32753239

Yeah, with the original points cost system, most creatures struggle to get beyond 4 points in any given stat due to the points poll tying in with traits AND an additional point deciding whether or not they have an ability, which I'm strongly considering deleting.

We should also add some sort of system for giving non-premade characters a starting inventory. Obviously, if you start out with sword, you get a sword, but what if you wanted to start with a slice of cake? Maybe make a separate point system that you can spend on giving your character abilities and items.

>>32753305
Instead of having points determine that, just allow a selection of items during character creation. They may not be the best stuff, but it's something out the gate. Like a low-level ability gifting item( a wooden yo-yo, a dull sword, a squirt gun, etc.) or a use item (Cherry, pocket watch, compass, etc.). Things that come to mind immediately would be the Demon/Dark Souls games.

>>32753343

That sounds simple and straightforward enough.

>>32753305
>>32753343

Yeah, if I remember correctly, the prevailing idea was to have Qualities be unimprovable. To "level up" Qualities, you'd buy Traits and such.

Creature types would describe what Quality layout you start with - so for instance, if you want to be a Waddle Dee, you start with the stats in its creature index entry - and then you can pick from its Abilities and Native Traits, alongside any other Traits you want.

Classes with 'weaker' Stats would probably compensate with 'better' selection of Traits and Abilities.

For instance, though Waddle Dees are average across the board, they get a good selection of Abilities... Spear, Parasol, Ghost, Missile and Balloon (both appearing in Epic Yarn only)! That's quite the selection.

>>32753874
The idea of limiting which species get which Abilities irks me the wrong way, but it balances out extremely well when you put it like that.

>>32753874
What if Abilities gave a buff or debuff to certain stats? Like Balloon debuffing Toughness by -1 and buffing Roundness by +2. This accomplishes two things. One, it limits what Creatures could get what Abilities by forcing them to take an Ability that keeps their stats within the 1<X<8 limit, and two, gives differences to two of the same Creatures with different Abilities. Say you had a team of 4 Waddle Dees and they were Spear, Parasol, Ghost, and...I dunno, Meido. They'd all have a slightly different stat spread because of Abilities.

Regarding the final bosses, how about something like a "scaryness" stat? It's measured by how scary and alien to Dream Land the boss is (on a scale from Marx to Nightmare to 02). Maybe if you fail the roll, the character will panic and the boss will gain an attack bonus to that character. If it's Dark Matter, he might even get possessed.

File: Kirby is Magic.png (88 KB, 454x532)

88 KB PNG

>>32755454

Dark Matter I'm planning to make a trait all on it's own, as lots of different creatures such as Gooey, Nidoo, and Mariel are made out of the stuff, yet range from power from sub-Waddle Dee to eats planets. Possession (as opposed to haunting, which is a ghost thing) would be a sub-trait that allows certain Dark Matter to take control of an organic creature when stunned, similar to how inhaling works. Yeah, with one of the modules I'm conceptualizing, fighting a large mass of Dark Matter without the proper preparations beforehand could end very bloodily indeed. Not sure about intimidation rolls however: I suppose for "scary" bosses, there could be a courage check to prevent flinching of some kind.

Also, Dark Nebula is a scary powerful example of Dark Matter, but for different reasons then most other bosses. On one hand, it's physically only as tough as a standard boss creature, no more so then any other blob of Dark Matter besides elemental manipulation, yet on the other, it has the ability to summon a black hole at will; It's sorta like an ICBM in that while it might not be that difficult to destroy, failing to destroy it would have really, really adverse consequences. Subsequently, it could be used as a "rocks fall, everyone dies" by an unsavory GM at will.

"Unknown to the party, the chest you had opened up in fact contained Dark Nebula, an extremely powerful Dark Matter magician. He conjures a black hole, enveloping Dreamland and causing the solar system to go out of whack. The end."

And yet another test sketch of the Kirb. Now in magic flavour!

>>32755759
All you need to do is find a middle ground between round arms and pointy arms and you're solid!

Finally unbanned, goddamn.

>>32716789
You could institute a height limit of some sort. The reason flight isn't OP in the games is the top of the screen, after all.

>>32716748
I think wing should have full flight, even if it doesn't actually hover. At the least, it should allow you to ignore some or all the shortcomings of puffing up to float.

>>32721761
I think being able to sell items is good, but we shouldn't describe a specific merchant. We could make him an example NPC, but we are NOT at the point of making those yet.

>>32729991
>>32728587
You're putting too much thought into it. It's a kid's game, remember. If a player wants to have a grimdark kirby game or say all the enemies are evil demon beast copies, then that's fine, but we need to focus on rules.

>>32722772
Well, if I recall correctly, 30 or so star bits gave you a 1-UP. Balance around that, keeping in mind that unless I'm mistaken, 1-UPs serve as a reroll type of deal.

>>32729379
Yeah, I think just roleplay.

>>32721749
Again, work on the setting after the mechanics are done. A default setting is fine, but you need a good game first, because it's tough to get back on track to mechanics. Note for the future, though, perhaps some amount of star bits will let you hire a buddy to go with you on one stage/mission/level. This could also work if the players need a certain mode of transport - wheelies to travel alongside a moving train, for example. Speaking of which, rides seem like they could be handled with a trait like Flying - something like:

>>32756436, cont:


>Mount: May carry one normally sized character with you when you move. Unfortunately, this requires a move action from both you and your passenger! If you're large, you can carry one large character, or up to four regular-sized ones!

Please edit for terminology and Kirbyness. Also, maybe you can carry other guys anyway, but you go as fast as you would while having inhaled something (even if you don't have copy). It certainly makes sense, because if carrying is slower or impossible, they'll just suck things up instead.


BTW, I looked at the webpage for TriDeluxe, and it seems hijump is part of the circus ability in the game.

Also, archer has quite a bit of overlap with cupid, so perhaps we should make cupid a mix of archer and wing, once we get to how mixing works?

Actually, what is our current list of abilities, including incorporated and mixed ones?

>>32755759
I'd make possession its own trait. Ghost power in Squeak squad let you play as the enemy.

>>32754806
Good in theory, but too complex in practice to implement and balance. If a group of the same races's individual stats matter, they're either PCs or statted out NPCs, so they'd have different stats anyway.

>>32757042
I don't see how anything around the +/-3 and anywhere inbetween range can get complicated. Time consuming yes, but not that complicated if we take our time with it.

>>32756450
-Beetle
-Archer/Cupid
-Backdrop/Fighter/Suplex/Throw/Smash
-Balloon/Ball/Circus/Hi-Jump/Whip
-Bell/Mike
-Bomb/Crash
-Bubble/Clean/Cook/Sleep
-Burning/Fire
-Copy[Maybe add Laser?]
-Freeze/Ice
+Ghost
-Hammer
-Jet/Missle
-Laser[Maybe add to Copy?]
-Leaf/Tornado
-Light[More a utility than anything else, keep this in mind]/Plasma/Spark
+Magic
-Metal/Stone/Iron
+Mini(Either have this as a status ailment or do it ala Mass Attack and become an army of tiny Kahrbees)
-Mirror/Beam
-Needle
-Ninja/Kabuki
+Paint
-Parasol/
-Spear
-Cutte
+UFO
-Water
-Wheel
+Wheelie Rider[MOUNTS, DO YOU USE THEM?]
-Yo-Yo/Top
-Sword

I just copy pasta'd it from the a skype chat, it may not be updated to what we've discussed through this thread and the latter half of the last thread. I'm keeping the Crystal Shard combos off the table for now since a lot of them are either redundant or messing up the poor excuse for a system we have currently

Reposted because i'm a derpass who leaves skype info in a copypasta

>>32757358
I see to recall plans to combine the beetle ability with the animal and wing abilities, though I could be remembering wrong.

That aside, did we ever decide on a format to use for abilities? They're a key part of the system and so far we don't have any real rules for them.

>>32757358

The most notable thing that's outdated with this is the fact that Whip has been reverted to its own separate ability (and merged with Draw from the quick draw mini-games), as well as Mirror and Sleep.

Cupid in particular I think we deleted entirety due to its redundancy in relation to archer.

>>32757461

We've decided some sort of level system on abilities, with options branching out in trees, if I recall. Something also about ability scrolls?

>>32760747
So what we still need it some sort of formatting system? A way to list an the level, range, targets, effects, and conditions of each ability?

Having that would allow us to start coming up with abilities, which would make it easier to organize them by level.

What about Epic Destinies to look forward to, now that we're talking about level formatting. We should have something, as players, to strive to, and go into certain traits and such.

>>32761029
I feel like that could be achieved with some sort of ability mastery feature. Once you max out an ability, you can then every so often use the super version of that ability, like they have int the latest games.

>>32761109

What if we're based off of skills and our initial scores? Each level we put some points in them to make them our strongest abilities. But there is incentive to give points to many skills, and you're restricted from getting to epic moves too quickly.

>>32761184
>we're

They're*

>>32761184
We could make it so it costs more points when leveling to get higher level abilities.

Like level 1 and 2 abilities cost 1 point, level 3 and 4 cost 2 points, and level 5 abilities cost 3 points.If you have 5 be the normal maximum level of abilities, then you have the option of going for depth or versatility. Then we just need a rule that says you need X points in an ability to purchase the super ability form, which can then be used X times per day.

Like a fire ability user could spend all of his points upgrading his fire ability, he could use his supernova fire dragon attack or whatever.

If we wanted to make it so everyone doesn't rush super abilities, we could also make it so the power is somewhat dependent on level, so a low level character who rushed the super ability would have a powerful attack for their level, but no overly so, and they'd only be able to do it once per day.

>>32761290

I like it, gives us a good frame to put everything else in.

>captcha: 404
>I was afraid of that

>>32761470
Yeah. Just to throw out a concept for a basic ability

Fire Breath
Level: 1
Range: Close
Effect: Make an ability check against up to two enemies within range. If you succeed, they take X fire damage.

I'm not sure one how we're handling distance, damage, or rolls, but that sort of template for abilities might work.

>>32761963

Ice Slash
Level: 1
Range: X blocks ahead.
Effect: Roll to hit X enemies in the given range.

Copy Abilities could be upgraded as well. If you had one, you'd have some reason to upgrade it and utilize it.

>>32762236
I'm still not sure how I like the sidescrolling grid. Maybe as an option, but I'm not sure how much I like grids in general for this.

I feel like having both a range in blocks and a simpler range would be good though. Just enough to distinguish powers from being melee, close range, mid-range, or long range.

That being said, that Ice slash power is really weird. First of all the range is randomly determined, so sometimes you'll just fall short if you try to use it from a distance. The biggest question I have is what ability it's supposed to be for though.

>>32762236
Kunai throw
level: 1
range: X blocks ahead
Effect: roll to hit enemies with X kunai

Can be used while climbing walls, enabling an option to throw them diagonally

>>32762423
>First of all the range is randomly determined, so sometimes you'll just fall short if you try to use it from a distance.

The X is a stand in for levels, lets say. So the more you put into it, the more spaces you move.

X spaces, X = Level number

>>32762925
I just realized that after reading >>32762653

I am retarded, carry on, etc.

>>32762925
>you put into it
>it

It being the Copy Abilities score.

>>32762960
I'm not sure how much I like range being determined by level. It might work for some abilities, such as archer, but a lot of powers seem like they'd have a more static range.

I feel like abilities shouldn't scale automatically as you level, instead requiring points to buy higher level powers, or specific traits that can improve damage or range.

Rather than gradually throwing more and more kunai further and further with a first level ability, the ninja should have a first level power to throw kunai X distance, and a higher level power that throws X kunai that same distance, but either in a rapid fire barrage, or in multiple directions. Throw in a trait to double the range, and you're good to go.

That does assume there's going to be some sort of system to prevent people from spamming their level 5 ability over and over. There only ability that has a mechanic for it built in is plasma/spark, and that's because of charge times.

>>32763059
Archer and Laser should have 2x(Level) for the range on their skills. Unless someone mentions it, those two seem like the only logical with above average. That and certain skills for Ranger(Whip+Draw).

>>32757235
Look at how much time people spend looking for a good race in D&D, and that's with stats that are generally between 10 and 20.

>>32762959
Wait so mine id a bad implementation or.

>>32763444
Well that just goes to prove the useful of us making a purposely simple system

>>32763476
No, I realized after I read the Kunai throw that the X wasn't standing for a variable, but just an undecided value.

Which I used for the fire ability damage, but for some reason I read it as being a randomized distance.

>>32763414
I like this suggestion. Those are the two longest range abilities, and are also the ones it makes the most sense to have the same range for all their powers.

>>32763414
Range befing defined by level sounds dumb, at least for the majority of skills. If that's not what you're saying, then please disregard this.

>>32763444
Also, any time spent on it is time not spent working on more central mechanics.

>>32762423
How about we describe range as something like "melee(1 square)", "close (X squares)" and so forth.

>>32763490
It won't be simple anymore if you put in stat-altering powers.

Speaking as someone who has had it happen to me, and meaning no offense, you may be somewhat attached to the idea.

>>32763593
I was thinking of classifying range like that. Melee would be 1 square away. Close would be 2-4 squares away, but some could also hit people next to you. This would include a lot of attacks, including those of somewhat longer melee weapons. Then 5-10 would be mid-range, with anything further than that being long range.

Certain abilities could have different numbers listed for use in a grid, but having the simple split into 4 categories works well.

>>32757358
Balloon appears to be basically floating, you can likely remove that alltogether or switch it to a status ailment. You might be able to move light to Domestic, it seems to work more like turning on a light switch than using fire or electricity to light things up. Fire and the like should probably keep a small area around you lit, though. Leaf and Tornado definitely don't go together. Animal and Wing are absent, top and iron never appeared in actual games, and Kabuki appeared in one minigame as a single possible, randomly selected attack.

>>32764581
Since you mentioned tornado, how do we want to handle that?

I mean, historically tornado has only ever done one thing. Maybe we could add in some lesser wind powers to go with it?

>>32764581

Iron is identical to metal, and hence it was merged with it into a single ability. Now, why it's merged with STONE I have little a clue, but we should probably separate the two considering that double-stone has the same function anyway. Top is likewise merged with Yo-yo since they have near-identical moves anyway (and so nobody tells us off for discluding it), and Kabuki is merged with Ninja specifically because it only appeared once, not that Ninja really needs it with the amount of abilities they have.

>>32764761

Tornado can potentially have other wind abilities I suppose, though there would likely be some overlap with leaf in moves.

----

Also, Wheelie Rider was deleted when we reworked riding mechanics.

>>32765289
I don't know. Most of leaf's abilities seem to be focused on throwing them or growing plants, such as with the guard and uppercut. The only thing the two have in common is their spinning maneuver.

I suppose the argument could be made for tornado just being a high level leaf ability, but that feels rather lazy to be honest.

>>32765419
Also tornado has a moveset from RtD, and in squeak squad it can also take elemental properties

>>32765289
Pretty much >>32765419 and >>32765913. Found movesets for comparison and additional tornado abilities.
Leaf Moveset: http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Leaf#Move_Set
Tornado Moveset: http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Tornado#Move_Set

Also, I never watched the anime, and honestly don't give a shit about the powers in it. All the abilities from it are apparently basically the same as whatever they're grouped with, though, so as long as the final name is "ninja" and not "Ninja/Kabuki" (that is, single power names instead of clunky multiple names), I'm good.

>>32765289
Animal and Wing aren't there.

>>32766575
Of course. When I originally compiled the powers I never intended for the names to be massive fusterclucks. They'd go under the major name, like Ninja for the Ninja/Kabuki or Ice for Ice/Freeze. As for the larger ones that we've home brewed, the names they've been referred to are perfectly fine( Domestic or Meido for the five or six silly abilities listed somewhere above, Ranger for Draw and Whip, and Ringleader or Performer for the grouping of circus stuff)

>>32766575
From what I can tell, they both have the spin, but the rest of leaf's powers include throwing leaves, camoflogue, or growing a large plant in front of him. Tornado's only other abilities are the small up/down cyclones.

Leaf is easy to extrapolate more stuff for, but tornado would be more difficult.

The real problem I'm having with this is while we've decided each ability will have levels for all the individual powers, we haven't come up with any way to encourage the use of low-level ones while high level powers exist. Why would a ninja use their single kunai throw while they have their high level multi-kunai?

We should implement some sort of recharge mechanic. For example, you need to wait a number of rounds equal to the level of a power before you can use a power of the level again. So say you use a level 1 power, you need to wait until next round to use it again, which makes them basic, but a level 3 ability would require 3 rounds, which means you'd need to use other abilities while you waited for it to come back.

The only thing that causes problems under that system are sustained abilities that you either hold down, like fire breath, press rapidly, like vulcan jab, or last for an extended period, like tornado.

>>32766802

"Meido" was really just a jab at the fact that the current move-set of domestic highly resembles that of a maid, and as a party member the most likely task of anyone with that ability will be to serve the other party members, being the sole reliable healing class in the game, and "Maid" is a less jokey term.

>>32766853

Looking back, I guess calling it a tree would be inaccurate: Most copy abilities have a bunch of different moves that are available at the starting level, but of which you can only pick one with your starting point (Freeze versus Frost Breath in Ice, for example), while other moves require a higher minimal level in an ability to learn. A handful of moves require you to learn another move beforehand, and these are mainly combo moves. Multi-kunai and other improved versions of existing moves would be learned through ability scrolls rather then the leveling system, so to answer your question; You wouldn't, as the weaker version of the move would be replaced with the stronger version.

>>32768945
Okay. so I suppose in that case we're going to make an attempt to have most abilities be roughly equal, with the stronger ones being those with prerequisites or those boosted by ability scrolls.

The only questions I have are how to balance out abilities with very narrow fields. Stuff like Laser and Tornado pretty much has one method of attack, for example. Would it be better to add in additional moves to round out their selections, or make higher level abilities they have access to better versions.

Like, the level 1 tornado spin does X damage, then at level 3 you can choose the next level which does 2x damage, etc.

>>32769305

You have a good point with things such as that. For one thing, I'd take Light out of Spark, which already has enough moves to chose from, and put it into laser in order to give it additional effects like Diffusion Beam and Purge (a powerful blast of radiant light, similar to Jet Cracker), while Tornado can have moves such as blasting air puffs, similar to Whispy Woods, and razor wind waves that ground fliers.

>>32771351

All right then, lets build a test Ability, using Laser/Light:

Level 1

Illuminate - Range: 2+AL (Ability Level), area around the user.

Effect: Illuminates a dark area, also revealing otherwise invisible objects in the process. Lasts until the user leaves the level or is KOed.

-

Eye-Laser - Range: 9+AL blocks ahead, cardinal directions.

Effect: Fires X bursts of intensely hot laser beams, each laser dealing X damage. Acts as a source of heat, and is capable of ricocheting off sloped surfaces.

Level 2

Charged Shot - Range: 10+AL blocks ahead.

Effect: Charges a large beam of light and launches it at a target for X damage. Acts as a source of heat. One turn cool-down. Requires Eye-Laser.

Daze: - Range: 5+AL blocks.

Effect: Briefly shines a bright light into the user's eye(s), with an X chance of blinding them.

Level 3

Laser Cutter - Range: 9+AL blocks.

Effect: Fires a continuous laser at a chosen block, cutting through most enemies in the way for X damage. Requires Eye-Laser.

Light Bomb - Range: 2 blocks in the three adjacent directions in front of the user.

Effect: A blinding charge of light that deals X damage to all enemies in front of the user as well as has an X chance to render them Blind. Two turn cool-down. Requires Illuminate.
Level 4

Laser Cannon - Range: 12+AL blocks ahead.

Effect: Stores an immense amount of light over a round and fires it the next for X damage, passing through thin walls and enemies alike. One turn cool-down. Acts as a source of heat. Requires Charged Shot.

Purge - Range: Line of Sight

Effect: Pierces a single target from the inside with radiation, dealing X damage with an X chance of Poisoning them. One turn cool-down. Requires Illuminate.

Level 5

Diffusion Beam - Range: 3 (short lasers) 5 (medium lasers), three adjacent tiles in front of the user.

Effect: The user a whole spectrum of lasers in a cone in front of them at once, and will fire X small lasers for X damage as well as X medium lasers- cont.

>>32772053

for X damage each, for the next X turns. During this time, the user is free to use any other move on subsequent turns. Available once per Scene.

>>32772053
>>32772071
Blegh. This is making me remember why I disliked the idea of a grid system. I'll go ahead and convert it all into the simplified distances for the gridless system

Level 1

Illuminate - Midrange area around the user.

Eye-Laser - Longrange

Level 2

Charged Shot - Longrange

Daze: - Midrange

Level 3

Laser Cutter - Longrange

Light Bomb - Close Range, cone

Level 4

Laser Cannon - Long Range

Purge - Range: Line of Sight

Level 5

Diffusion Beam - Close Range, cone

It might require some more detail with abilities that aren't single target, such as cones. Other than that, I feel like the current ideas work. I do note that you did use the earlier idea of cooldowns for more powerful abilities, which I think works well. I still say we should try and come up with a unified mechanic for cooldowns of higher level powers though.

We'd also need rules for some of these status effects.

>>32772596

At this point, the game is most likely going to be choke-full of optional rules in the first edition alone. I guess that's not a bad thing, as it would allow it to be easily accessible to first-timers who can activate more and more rules on subsequent campaigns as they learn the ins and outs of the system.

>>32766853
Why not build exceptions to the standard duration in their rules text (ie: "You may continue using fire breath for up to X rounds/as long as you want. You can change your aim each turn, but you cannot move by yourself*. This power begins recharging the turn you stop breathing flames (alter wording here to match final terminology for recharge mechanic).")

*The idea for wheelie-mounted firebreathers suddenly occured to me, and sounded neat enough to allow.

>>32772071
Mostly useless idea: call scenes rooms or levels. heck, use both and have two levels of limited usability(not counting one-use).

Also, the thingies you collect to earn 1UPs are apparently called Point Stars, and the most common amount that give you a 1UP is 100. So once we get to pricing items, we can use that as a baseline price.

>>32772907
>>32772596
I still like the "Close(X spaces)" format.

>>32775559
Room = scene
Level = adventure

Glad to see my upgradable Ability idea is still in use, but remember; This is supposed to stretch into the players other qualities, like Roundness, so they could truly specialize their ability. I've always thought that something is wrong if a starting character and an epic level character have the same base stats. Of course, that's just my original intention for this idea.

Also, here's some touchy, ultra-powerful/rare abilities in the Kirby universe that should be treated as Epic Level gifts for completing a task by such-and-such level:

>Microphone
>Chef
>UFO ( Because unlimited flight is OP as hell ), you get it by maxing your flying ability and reaching level X.

>>32776435
Microphone will be taking the higher level attacks for Bell and Mike Abilities, no combination name has been given yet for it's tentatively just Music. Chef is mixed in with Domestic/Maid/Whatever sounds comfy Ability and will probably be in the Level 3-4 slot. I do agree that we need to do something with UFO, i has its own level of attacks based on charging up so that helps us out but the perma-Hovering status might just lock it off to Copy Ability natives and UFO natives( That is to say, just UFO). It's an odd duck I don't know how to handle.

>>32772596
I love how this handles the utility and draw backs of the directness of the Laser Ability( and gives Light some good use). I would say the following should be range, but feel free to shut it down if it doesn't work:
>Short Range= X(Ability Level)
>Mid Range=2+ X(Ability Level/2)
>Long Range=2 x X(Ability Level)

This would mean not too many abilities would get long range options and mostly mid and short, but that's good because it offers reason to play Sniper/Scout like abilities(Laser, and Archer come to mind immediately)

>>32776969
I also took the liberty of attempting to stat up another Creature following the same format Clad had left us with for the Waddle Dee.

Spynum

C: 1
R: 3
T: 2
F: 2
D: 1
E: 3

S: 2
J: 2
W: 2

Traits:

【Small】- Native

【From the Shadows】- Native - Few Creatures choose the path of cunning to defend themselves and fight their enemies. A Creature with this Trait has the ability to raise cover to camouflage themselves once per scene, giving them 1 additional point of Roundness in combat while they are in the same spot they used the Trait.

Abilities: 【Archer】 - Archer - LVL 1

Inventory:

Light Bow: A simple weapon consisting of a sturdy wooden limbs and a tightened bowstring. Bestows Archer. Small weapon.

A race of shadowy figures that prefer distance between themselves and others. While they can work in small teams, Spynum are best seen scouting ahead of a team or taking on targets by themselves. A slender body that is mostly covered in a large cloak and silly hat, these Creatures utilize their steady muscles and keen eyes to aid their team from behind.

>>32776435
Never, ever plan to balance abilities by rarity. Just as one example, MtG was originally balanced around the idea that rares would be, well, rarer. Also, 3.5 magic items.

>>32776969
We don't necessarily have to have a standard range for each gridless designation. It'd be ideal, of course, but if some power came along that just didn't feel right in a standard range, it would be changeable. Also, we could put in new ranges whenever. Basically, it's good, but don't get locked into think it's the only option.

>>32777671

>Never, ever plan to balance abilities by rarity. Just as one example, MtG was originally balanced around the idea that rares would be, well, rarer. Also, 3.5 magic items.

While I do understand what you're saying, I must remind you that MtG is a card game where people could just buy 'rare and powerful' cards.

We are basing this off of how rare UFO/Chef/Mike/Etc are in Kirby. They're very far and few between, but their powers are absolutely catastrophic. So they have to be confined to higher levels to show the increase in power.

>>32777780
Hence why they(UFO notwithstanding) are locked to the higher level attacks of their respective abilities. If a character fights and earns their way to a Level 5 Maid or Level 5 Music then by all means give them a powerful(but still balanced) attack that's AoE and can wreck shop.

>>32776969
I was basing off an earlier idea, which was melee = 1 square, close range = 2-4 squares, mid range 5-9 squares, and long range is anything 10 squares or longer.

We weren't planning on having all classes have their range scale either, just laser and archer. Something like hammer or blade would be all melee with a few close attacks, while something such as plasma would have a wide spectrum of ranged attacks, but the range on each would not scale.

This does mean that archer and laser lose out on a bit of range at higher levels, but that just means we could give them a free trait at some leve 4 that improves the range category of any powers they have to a longer range, with exceptions for those that are intentionally short range.

>>32777840

UFO's ability list is likely going to be similar to both Laser and Beam's, only with even more utility. Of course, assuming that getting someone to start with laser is going to be neigh impossible barring directly recruiting a UFO helper, how are they going to get more then one level into it? Looking back at one of the earlier idea, perhaps some moves could carry over to other abilities: Final Cutter is both a Sword and Cutter move in some games, for instance.

>>32779283

I meant to start with UFO*. Bah, I done goofed.

>>32779077
Alright so then we should make a trait for Archer and Laser Ability Users that buffs Level 4 and 5 skills' range. We just need a name for it...I got it.

【Eye of Dynablade】- Archer and Laser Exclusive Trait - Through extensive combat experience this Creature has intense focus on the battle field. The range of Level 4 and 5 attacks can have [Insert Formula And/Or Number of whatever we come up later] Range at the cost of one point in Friendship for the remainder of the Scene.

The reason there's a point dock? The Creature is too focused on their aim to communicate with their team properly. Too 'in the zone'. This is giving us good ground for more trait making me thinks.

>>32779336

Possibly include Ranger (Whip/Draw) as well.

>>32779336
I feel like we shouldn't restrict it to level 4 or 5 abilities if it's going to be an active trait. There's no real reason to.

I also like the idea of having some sort of point system like friendship to use for more restricted abilities, but I'm afraid we'd start using it for everything. We need to make sure there's not more than a handful of traits with it, and give it some generic use, like being able to use a power on cooldown immediately.

>>32779283
I was thinking we'd need to homebrew it's moves since a lot of what the UFO can be seen doing in the game's it's available in is really a glorified Beam Ability with floating. If I had to come up with some quick and dirty ground work I'd see it as:

>Level 1

Gyroscope - Melee area around the user.

Focus Beam - Mid Range

>Level 2

Abduction Grab - Mid range stuns enemies in a conical field in front of the Creature for 1 turn

Enriched Laser: - Midrange- +1 Damage to Creatures with 【Mineral】Trait

Level 3

Laser Cutter - Longrange

Light Bomb - Long Range, stuns all Creature within a two space radius for 2 turns

Level 4

Gravitational Pull - Close Range, +2 Extra Damage to Creatures with 【Flight】Trait

Cleansing Purge - Range: Line of Sight

Level 5

Eyes of Klatuu- Gives sight on all enemies in the current Scene and lowers their Toughness by 1 for two turns. During this time, the Creature who used it is treated as stunned for two turns.

And as for that 【Mineral】Trait, I figured there's a good enough amount of Creatures made of stone and iron that they deserved their own trait.

【Mineral】- Trait - The ground beneath this Creature runs in its vein and legacy. Because of their hardy exterior and interior, they are given an additional two points in Toughness at the cost of one point in Dreaminess.

>>32779416
I've got the creative juices flowing and just had an idea for a trait that would really shine with the Friendship Quality

【Brothers In Arms】- Sword, Jet, and Bomb Exclusive Trait - A feeling of solidarity charges this Creature's heart in the heat of battle. Once per scene the Creature can unleash a close range attack dealing X(Friendship of the Creature+ # of Allied Creatures) amount of damage

Why these three Abilities specifically? Sword for knighthood, Bomb to represent the Poppy Bros. , and Jet you can be my wing man, anytime.

>>32779795
Question: "X(Friendship of the Creature+ # of Allied Creatures)" Does that include their friendship value or no?

>>32779795
>X(Friendship of the Creature+ # of Allied Creatures)

Holy shit that is an ugly equation.

>>32779887
If you mean the Creature activating the Trait then yes it's their Friendship, which should be anywhere between 2 and 4 depending on the creature and then if they happen to have any other traits that influence the stat. If you mean the Allie's Friendship Quality then OH LORDY NO the number would be like some room clearing crazy attack.
>>32779920
I never was good with this kind of stuff, feel free to clean it up. Remember i'm just throwing these ideas out for the sake of someone coming along to refine them into something we can all agree on. If they work out right away, awesome, yay for me, but I fully intended for anyone to fix it up to be something better.

>>32779959
Thats what I thought, and wanted to clarify, as was said >>32779920, the equation feels messy.

X = (Friendship + #Allies in Scene)

Does that look better?

>>32779795
Maybe it'd be better to just have it deal damage equal to the number of allies you have. Maybe increase it to twice the number if it proves to be too weak.

We need to make sure there's not too many changing numbers to keep track of. At this point I feel like there should only be 2. Your HP, and any friendship points. Friendship points should be given out sparingly, so you'd probably never get more than two. They'd also have the benefit of being usable with tokens you could trade in to the GM when you spend them.

>>32780071
I believe you may be mistaken with something, Friendship is a Quality. One of the six base stats that a Creature has. The six are Courage, Roundness, Toughness, Friendship, Dreaminess, and Exam Score(can we get a better name for this? It sticks out like a sore thumb).

>>32780121
Ah, so the ability you actually made was supposed to decrease the friendship stat by 1 for the remainder of the scene.

It seems I was getting confused, I thought we were adding some form of points to spend.

In that case, I don't feel like we should put in any powers that decrease stats. If you want to make a super-strong power that takes up enough of the user's energy to make them weaker afterwards, it'd be better to just have them not be able to attack next turn, due to needing to recharge. If you really wanted you could also make it extend any cooldowns by 1, meaning all the energy during that lost turn is spent getting to normal.

>>32779513

Perhaps refine the names a bit, but that's looking like an adequate start.

>>32780121
They're all stats from the Computer Virus boss in Kirby Super Star. (If you knew that and just didn't like the way it sounded, I apologize. I think it sounds okay. It does have a space, but it has roughly the same number of syllables/letters.

>>32779795
Eh, seems too niche. Restrictions on who can have what should be avoided. Also, Top Gun, while an excellent movie, is not Kirby.
>>32779513
>【Mineral】- Trait - The ground beneath this Creature runs in its vein and legacy. Because of their hardy exterior and interior, they are given an additional two points in Toughness at the cost of one point in Dreaminess.
I don't think traits should adjust stats - the hardness should be reflected in the creature's stats to begin with. I would change it to:
【Mineral】- Trait - The ground beneath this Creature runs in its vein and legacy. Due to their extreme density, they sink in water, may fall through fragile surfaces, and are generally heavy (possibly: , weighing twice as much as a regular Creature of their size). However, this also helps them remain stationary if others attempt to move them. (mechanical description of resistance to knockback, lifting, sucking, etc.)
Then one of metal which is similar but mentions magnets and probably gives a different bonus.

Basically, I think traits should reflect qualities that cannot be expressed anywhere else. Stats can just be altered, and I'm pretty sure natural attacks are included in the race. Traits should be specific enough that they couldn't potentially apply to all things if the fluff sentence changed, and general enough that they don't just apply to one species of enemy.

>>32782872
This is why I lay the groundwork, so others can refine it. I like the changes this anon made to the Mineral trait.

>>32780121
>>32780337

We will be putting points into qualities, if a level one character has the same stats as an epic level character we have a problem.

>>32782872

Rename mineral to the less jarring hard. Also, as for traits and stats, it's mostly just a few things here and there now that the 12 base points aren't tied to traits and abilities anymore. For instance, a large Waddle Dee is indeed slightly more durable then its smaller counterparts in the game, so Big reflects that. I'd also rename mineral to simply "Hard".

We should also make some sort of mark as to indicate which natural traits are required for a given creature versus natural traits that are optional. For instance, all Bronto Burts have flight, yet not all of them are giant.

>>32784697

Bah, I repeated what I said twice in the same paragraph! Silly non-proofreading skills.

Huh. Looking over these posts, I've noticed that Inanimate hasn't been on for a bit. That, or e' did what I occasionally do and forgot to post with a handle.

>>32784697
Well, I was thinking of having one for rocks and one for metal, as they have somewhat different qualities (metal being affected by magnets, for example). How about something along the lines of "stony" or "rocky"?

As for the different types of traits, how about "inherent"? By the way, I can't remember what exactly Native means.

>>32779513
For reference: http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/UFO#Move_Set

Also, how do we indicate it provides Hovering?

>>32787433
By the trait for Hovering. it was discussed either early this thread or last thread that there'd be a few(3 I think) different methods of flying.

>>32788388
I think we were going with hover, where you could still attack, float, where you needed to constantly use your actions to fly, and attacking made you fall, and jumping, which was jumping.

>>32788388
>>32788480
Well, yeah, but where does the trait go in the rules text?

>>32789618
I'm pretty sure flight capability is determined primarily as as native trait by species, but can also be granted by having certain abilities.

Like, a basic sword knight would just have jump, unless he got access to the wing or jet ability.

Should passive abilities like flight and camouflage be included by default in abilities, or gained through levels? I think the former would work better, but that's just me.

>>32789738
Yes, but where does it GO in the ability text, is the question. I'm with >>32791428, personally.

>>32791428
>>32791562

Those would be traits that a Creature gets either by their Creature type or their primary ability. Flight comes along with anything that flies. In the Shadows would be something that sneaky Creatures get.

>>32791562
I don't quite understand what you're asking me, since we don't have a well-defined format.

I suppose it would be listed like so:

Sword Knight

(stats go here)

Traits:

>Jump

(Other traits go here)

For abilities, it could also be a passive trait you gain automatically. These should pretty much be universal automatic traits that you just get. They'd be listed as the name of the type of flight under races or abilities, and then the full rules for flight traits would be posted elsewhere. No need to write out a full description of the jump trait on every character after all.

That said, I think we should also make sure the floating trait allows you to preform jumps, or at the very least make jump something even more universal. With the exception that hover would negate your ability to jump in most cases.

>>32791694
I'm asking where the traits go in the power list for the ability. For example, the UFO ability can be obtained by a kirby, who does not have the inherent ability to hover. The possession of the UFO power, however, allows him the ability to hover. Where does the rules entry for UFO (for example >>32779513) indicate this?

>>32792234
We'd probably need to include a header for each ability listing any traits it automatically gives.

Such as fire or plasma making you glow in the dark.

>>32791694
I'm oddly partial to the idea of repeating rules text in creature entries. So long as the entries have some whitespace in between, the larger area helps the eye focus on a single entry and not skip over to others.

I'd just make jump a universal ability, with anything that can't possessing a trait that basically says "This Creature cannot jump".

>>32792389
Yeah. Most rules would be good to repeat, such as things being large or having armor.

But jumping and flight are nigh universal. The only one of the three types that would be better to give a full write-up whenever it shows up is hover, since that's really just for UFO.

>>32792349
We probably should describe the common utilities of powers (fire lighting fuses, hammer flattening posts, sword cutting wires, etc.) Should we add a separate section or just discuss it in the power and/or trait text?

I'd just add it as a sentence or two between the trait section(if any) and the powers list. Ideally we make up a power with up-to-date components and see how it looks, though.

>>32792421
Point. I do think we should make jumping just a universal ability, as I described in >>32792389.

>>32792486
Yeah. Jumping should be a universal ability, with a rule posting elsewhere. Flight should be a common ability, with the rule posted elsewhere. Hover flight should be a rare ability, with the rule written on whatever race/ability is giving hover.

Sound good?

>>32792471
What we really need to do is pick either a very simple or very complex power and do a full write-up. For the race as well.

Once we have a really solid template, we can actually build off of it.

Any suggestions for a good ability to start with? The laser ability we have now is a bit confusing with it's range increasing with level, and the sword knight race is solid, but the abilities could get tedious.

Yo, one of Candleshaft's gaming buddies here. He's been telling me how he plans on DMing a few games of this after we're done with our current stuff.
>>32792234
Abilities seem to be like Creature Type in that they can also provide passive abilities like Flight or Hover

Also, would swimming be a thing? Like, basic stuff for swimming rules:
-Binary status (you're swimming or you're not)
-Jump height and movement speed are halved
-If you normally Jump or Hover, you Fly while swimming.
-You're reduced to a weak melee-ranged attack (the water squirting thing.
-Certain abilities and creature types negate the attack limitation or speed restrictions (e.g. Sword and Parasol for Ability, Squishy for Creature Type)

I'd say this should be shunted to the "Figure it out later" list, but it's something that could be interesting for a sidescrolling game. Stuff like combat abilities and flight mechanics should be our primary concern.

Also, I've been listening to Starbomb, and I realized that at least one sick fuck will try to shoehorn ERP homebrew stuff into this game.

Have fun!

>>32792687

You know you have it made when people start writing their own supplements to the system, no matter how squicky.

>>32792471

I'm leaning towards describing various objects and what affects them in their own section. We're going to have lots of sections when this is all said and done. Yeah, Charged Shot and Laser Cutter should probably be given the same range as Eye-Laser, while laser itself should be knocked back two tiles, as I've realized most rooms aren't going to be much longer then 10 tiles in the first place. In fact, I'm going to do a write up on existing traits right now and how they effect each other as far as the other existing traits. More shall be added on as more traits are added.

>>32792687

Haha! We've got people interested! Though still, plebs should know they shouldn't sexualize the Kirbster. Lemme guess, some bloke will play a Fairy Maid and attempt to play it like a /d/m's Meido RPG, only with Kirneh.

>>32792548

Minor aside, Sword Knight hasn't been modified to take into account the changes in creature creation, so he has two less points available to his BST then other creatures, same as Laser Ball. They'll need slight fixing.

>>32793120
Yeah, I know.

Candleshaft's gonna kick my ass when he finds out I brought that up.

Also, I think I might join in on this. I assume I should start namefagging if I intend on posting regularly.

Don't worry, I won't suggest ERP stuff.

>>32793373
I see.

I still feel like it would be easier to get everything on the same page if we had a race/ability combo to use as an example.

The main problem I'm having is figuring out which ability is the simplest. It needs to be something with not a lot of moves, very few multi-round effects, and no extremely unique mechanics.

>>32793545

Bomb. All bomb moves across all games revolve around creative ways to get those spheres of black-powder goodness into range of your enemies to blow them up. More so then even cutter and sword, Bomb has fairly consistent moves.

>>32793782
Alright. So that's settled. Now we need to do a writeup of whichever creature we want to use for bomb, as well as the more basic abilities.

The big question is how to sort them though. All bomb powers basically involve pulling a bomb out of nowhere, and then throwing it in some way.

There's also the matter of how we want to handle the bomb itself hitting something versus the explosion hitting something.

>>32793891
Just a test write-up of possibilities for bomb powers.

Level 1
Bomb Lob - Midrange (7 blocks or fewer)
Effect: Tosses a bomb in an arc through the air at an enemy. If an enemy gets struck by the bomb, they take X damage. Anyone within melee range of the first enemy takes 2X damage.


Bomb Lay - Melee
Effect: Sets a bomb down on the ground in front of the user. At the start of the user's next turn, the bomb explodes. Anyone within melee range of where the bomb was placed takes 2X damage.

-------------

That's about as far as my thought process got. The main problems are that I don't quite know how we're handling attack rolls, so I'm not sure if the auto-damage radius on the bomb is fair. I will say that each of them is fairly easy to avoid the blast radius of, since the first requires clustered enemies, and the second is laying a trap.

Other than that, another problem is how to handle hitting a single enemy with an explosive lob. There needs to be a way to determine the accuracy of a bomb thrown directly vs. the accuracy of an indirect blast.

I'd offer some ideas, but honestly I don't know much about how stats are working, other than the fact that Roundness is the general agility stat.

>>32793545
I'll throw in my card for my buddy Spynum, let's see how it goes.

Spynum

C: 1
R: 3
T: 2
F: 2
D: 1
E: 3

S: 2
J: 2
W: 2

Traits:

【Small】- Native

【From the Shadows】- Native

【Eye of Dynablade】- Ability Exclusive Trait(archer, laser, and draw like earlier discussed)

Abilities: 【Archer】 - Archer - LVL 5

【Level 1】
- Steady Shot- Mid Range
【Level 2】
- Arrowhead Ram- Melee
- Focused Shot- Long range
【Level 3】
- Flaming Arrow- Mid Range- This attack is treated as if it were a Fire Ability
- Arrow Storm- Mid Range- Cone in the direction this Creature is currently facing.
【Level 4】
- Spiral Snipe- Line of Sight Range
- Sky Arrow- Mid Range- After using this attack the Creature is given the 【Flight】Trait for two turns
【Level 5】
-Apple of the Eye- Line of Sight Range- This attack is treated as though the Creature using it has the 【Pierce】Trait

Inventory:
【Equipment】Light Bow(Grants Archer Ability)
【Use】Pocket Sand

And as for what Pierce would do, it would allow attacks to go through and effect enemies at half the damage, halving through each consecutive enemy. Notable Abilities that can make extensive use of this will be Needle, Bomb, and Spear.

I know Bomb was discussed while I typed this out but any chance this sheet can get the old criticism chisel

>>32794085
Okay, checked the PDF (don't know why I didn't think of that earlier).

I'm thinking the following would work. We currently have it set up so that each character rolls their attribute and compares the number of successes, and the excess is turned into hits if the attacker wins.

So, for the secondary damage of Bomb Lob, I propose the following. Anyone caught in the blast who would take the 2X damage gets 'attacked' by an automatic X successes. This number could possibly be improved with traits or ability improvements. Anyone being attacked by the blast can only use roundness to try and avoid it. The roll their dice normally, and if they get fewer than X successes, they take the 2X damage (possibly with multiple hits, although I'm still uncertain how well that would work out)

Then, for the difficulty of indirectly hitting someone with a blast, if you roll your attack and get 1 more success, you just hit them with the bomb itself. If you get X more successes, you can instead hit them with the blast (again, possibly with multiple hits).

I'm not to used to this sort of system, so my suggestions are probably a bit odd. It also depends on what we want to use for a baseline, and how many hitpoints things are going to have.

>>32793891
Candleshaft and I are in a skype call, and he just brought up using Poppy Bros for the sample enemy with the bomb ability.

Then we started singing the Poppy Bros. thing from Game Grumps.

Also, what sort of rolling mechanics do we plan on using? Roll-under based on stats like Drunken Bear Fighter? Dice based on ability scores like Savage Worlds? Modifiers based on stats like DnD?

Whatever it is, we should stick to the core design philosophy of keeping things simple enough that you can pick up and play no matter how new you are, but in-depth enough that there's a lot of potential for experienced players

Capcha: Jettfro which

http://pastebin.com/zwB01i4H

Text draft of the traits list. Lots of traits are absent, so this is mostly just a mock-up, but it gives a general idea of how traits work.

>>32794345
Currently the PDF says it's a roll pool system based on successes.

The attacker uses either courage or dreaminess. The defender uses either roundness or toughness. Each rolls a number of dice equal to their score, and counts successes (doesn't say what result is a success, or what dice to use). Then, for every 1 success the attacker has above the defender, 1 hit is dealt.

Personally, I think it could work as a simple system, since you just roll a bunch of dice and count the number that are successes. The problem I have is with the extra hits for extra successes. That should be restricted to certain abilities, such as combo slashes for sword, or other rapid-fire attacks.

>>32794359
This is a fantastic idea but I feel bad for the poor sod who needs to keep this updated. At least Inanimate will update the .pdf when we all really get it together, but the pastebin can and should be edited consistently in order to tract what we all agree on.

>>32794407
I'm on board for this idea behind bonus hits. While it kind of makes sense for most abilities, I'd vouch for anyone that likes the Bomb Ability who would wonder how a bomb explodes successfully twice. Hell, we could even make it more simple by having multi-hitting be part of a Trait that can just be applied to some attacks.

>>32794450
The big reason behind the multiple hits being based on ability is because it gives us another method to balance things. Instead of making it so the ninja's kunai attack gets upgraded to make extra attacks, we can just give it the rapid-attack keyword, so when the ninja makes an attack with a kunai, he throws multiple, and the extra successes are counted as hits.

As for the bomb ability, I could see some sort of cluster detention upgrade or trait that would allow an explosion to strike an enemy twice if they don't roll any successes, but it's probably not necessary at this point.

Let me know if I'm making sense with all of this, it's 4 in the morning where I am.

Okay, the rolling mechanics make sense, and same for nixing the bonus attacks, unless we just re-fluff the multiple successes as one attack hitting really hard. Then again, I'm hardcore into Legend, so I kinda have this mindset of "don't get in a huff, just re-fluff" which, while it works for a universal system like Legend, might not be the case for something like Dreamland d6.

Also, since you guys re-defined flight mechanics, I assume we're getting rid of Gliding and merging Float with Flying from the traits list.

With that said, any other ideas for traits? One of my ideas is 【Aquatic】 (Provides Hover movement in water, ignores movement speed reduction), and possibly re-defining 【Float】 as letting you sit at the top of water without effort (Could apply to Archer's life preserver and Ninja's water tiptoe thing).

Candleshaft brought up the idea of a status condition that forces your copy ability to Mini, level 1. I'd also suggest one based on Canvas Curse that forces it to Ball, level 1, and one based on Epic Yarn that sets it to Whip, level 1.

And, before I go to bed, I'm thinking of taking charge of the Bell/Mike ability, so let me know if you guys have any ideas. The lobsters have already claimed Candle (long story involving horribly mistyped spoiler tags), so he won't be on for a while.

>>32794915

One of the original goals if I recall was to make the mechanics workable enough that one in theory could strip all the references in Kirby from it and it would still be able to function on its own.

>>32794915
I feel like the biggest reason to get rid of bonus hits for high success is not only for fluff concerns, but also for balance.

Unless something has changed toughness still determines hitpoints. Right now, I think everyone's hitpoints are technically equal to their toughness. This means we're dealing with very low numbers in terms of hitpoints. 1 damage will be a non-trivial amount of damage in most cases. Having the extra successes deal extra hits just makes things more swingy, since the right combination of luck could make a rather low damage basic attack deal 4 or 5 damage if everything lined up. It works for low level powers that deal 1 damage and are supposed to be rapid fire, since high level powers would just be dealing more damage by default. At that point though, health would be higher so the effects would be reduced.

So, in conclusion. The only abilities that should get extra hits for extra successes are abilities that only deal low damage, and even then they should require a trait or ability upgrade in order to be usable in that way.

Like the basic sword slash would deal 1 damage, then you could later upgrade it to a sword combo, so extra successes were extra hits, meaning you got in more slashes of the combo, but each one still did 1 damage.

>>32794085
Anyway, I'll continue editing and adding to these bomb mechanics.

Universal bomb rules:
-The blast of a bomb counts as an attack with (2/3) successes. Defenders must roll Roundness to avoid damage.
-A bomb attack with (3/2) more successes than the target results in the target being hit by the explosion. They do not need to make an additional roll to avoid the blast.

Level 1
Bomb Lob - Midrange (7 blocks or fewer)

Effect: Tosses a bomb in an arc through the air at an enemy. If an enemy gets struck by the bomb, they take X damage. Anyone within melee range of the first enemy takes 2X damage.

Bomb Lay - Melee

Effect: Sets a bomb down on the ground in front of the user. At the start of the user's next turn, the bomb explodes. Anyone within melee range of where the bomb was placed takes 2X damage.

Level 2
Straight Bomb - Midrange (9 blocks or fewer)

Effect: Hurls a bomb in a straight line through the air at an enemy. If an enemy gets struck by the bomb, they take X damage and are Stunned (or a similar status). Anyone within melee range of the first enemy takes 2X damage.

Heavy Demolition - Melee
Effect: Places a large bomb on the ground in front of the user. In 2 turns, the bomb explodes, dealing 3X damage to anything within Close Range (3 blocks). Anyone within the blast radius is flung out of it. You may only have 1 Heavy Demolition bomb active at a time.

Level 3

Cluster Bomb - Mid range (6 blocks or fewer)

Effect: Throws 3 bombs at points within range. The bombs may be thrown at enemies or empty squares in any combination. If an enemy is struck by the bomb, they take X damage. Anyone within melee range of the first enemy takes 2X damage. If a bomb is throw at an empty square, it explodes at the start of the user's next turn. Anyone within melee range of where the bomb was thrown takes 2X damage. After using this ability, it cannot be used again for 2 rounds.

(cont)

>>32795690

Bomb Ball - Close Range (4 blocks or fewer)

Effect: You can kick an existing bomb at an enemy. When you use this ability, you select up to 2 normal-sized bombs within melee distance of you. You may use these bombs to make attacks against enemies within this power's range. If an enemy is struck by the bomb, they take X damage and are Stunned (or a similar status). Anyone within melee range of the first enemy takes 2X damage.

Level 4

Bomb Carnival - Close Range 3 blocks or fewer.

Effect: Place up to 5 bombs in empty squares within range. In 3 rounds, the bombs all explode. Anyone within melee range of where the bomb was placed takes 2X damage. After using this ability, it cannot be used again until all the bombs have exploded.

Dive Bomb - Melee

Effect: Slam a bomb into an enemy from close range. The bomb explodes on contact, dealing 4X damage to the enemy, and 2X damage to yourself. After using this ability, it cannot be used again for 3 rounds.

Level 5

Hyper Bomb - Midrange (6 blocks or fewer)

Effect: Throw a large bomb towards a group of enemies. Choose a square within range. Anyone within Close Range (3 squares) of that square takes 3X damage and is flung out of the blast radius. After using this ability, it cannot be used again for 2 rounds.

Crash Fireball - Midrange (8 blocks or fewer)

Effect: Use chain detonations to crash into enemies. Anyone within range of this power takes 4X damage. The user takes 2X damage in the process. This ability can only be used once per (scene/day).
Crash Fireball might work better as an ultra ability rather than a normal one, although I don't know if we had a system for that.

I'd write up stats for Poppy Bro Jr., but I'm not sure where to start with it.

Other than that, thoughts on what I've done for the bomb powers?

>>32795690
>>32795696

Shouldn't Crash have a large AoE like in the games? Maybe, the farther it would be, the less damage it would do.

>>32796492
So, something like:

Crash Fireball - Special

Effect: Anyone within Long range of the user (15 blocks) takes 2X damage. Anyone within Midrange of the user (9 blocks) takes 3X damage. Anyone within Close range of the user takes 4X damage. Anyone within melee range of the user takes 5X damage.

The big problem with massive AoEs like that is how much rolling you have to do for all the enemies.

>>32794325
>Pocket Sand
No. No references. It's a hallowed internet thing, to be sure, but it is not Kirby.
>>32794915
Aquatic is a good idea, redefining float less so. That would make a good trait on its own, however.
>>32797727
True. Perhaps we should implement a sort of AC system? It's certainly not terribly hard to hit things in kirby. As for toughness, perhaps we should increase hitpoint to twice toughness? I honestly have no idea how that would work out, so save it as something to try out once we get to playtesting.

I'd kind of like to have an updated PDF so we could tell where we stand.

>>32798810
I feel like what would work for attacks that hit large groups of enemies is to have it so the attacks instead count 1/2 of the character's relevant trait as being successes.

So if you target a group of enemies, and they all have 2 roundness, except 1 guy who has 4 roundness. The guys with 2 would be counted as having 1 success, with the guy who has 4 being counted as having 2. Then you roll a single attack for all of them. If you got 2 successes, you would have 2 more success than the weaker enemies and hit all of them, but you would need 3 successes in order to hit the guy with 4 roundness.

It also depends on what dice we want to use for a pool and what counts for a success. I'd say that a pool of d6 with 5+ counting as a success could work. Then the number could be altered in play, like certain status effects might make it so only 6s count as successes. It shouldn't be possible to permanently change what counts as a success though, except maybe for powers designed to be weaker overall but highly accurate.

>>32798911
According to the PDF, a 4 usually counts as a success.
>>32798810
Well, We've narrowed the flight-giving traits to [Flight] and [Hover]. I could see [Glide] for stuff like the Parasol ability, or anything that slows your fall (and increases horizontal mobility in the air?), but for [Float], it seems to be the same as [Flight]. You can stay mid-air, but have to exert effort to do so, and attacking cancels it out. If we redefine [Float] to stuff that lets you stay on top of water without sinking, it would no longer be redundant, and makes sense for the name. You float on top of the water.

And I'm gonna work on Bell/Mike a bit. Gonna look through the stuff for the other abilities and the attacks that Bell gets (Mike is gonna be a high-level AOE.

Hey guys, I'm back after being gone for a few days.

What's the summary for the changes so far? Any big revisions or ideas since my last post?

>>32800406
Float and Flight are two different names for the same thing, referring to relatively uncontrolled, but unlimited, aerial movement akin to Kirby's puffing up.

I believe parasol would have a passive ability that slows down your rate of falling. Falling itself is not yet defined, but I think it would be universal, . You go down X spaces a turn and can steer yourself a space to the side. Parasol slows you down so you can go further with the airtime you have.

Also, I think all the powers have the ability to tread water in the later games, so I'd make the ability to stick to swimming on the surface, be it actual swimming or a life preserver or whatever, so the trait should probably apply to wheel and ninja, those are the only two I can think of that actually stay above the water.

>>32800746
We made some example powers and creatures, seem to have settled on a philosophy of what traits are, have the outlines of a system for underwater and flight, and probably a bunch of other stuff I forgot. I can only recommend you read the thread yourself, as well.

>>32801096
Yeah, was definitely gonna do so. I find that summary posts really help collect ideas and identify where to move forward, though.

>>32800998
Okay, that makes sense. I haven't played anything past Squeak Squad, so I don't exactly have the most experience with this.


As for Float and Flight, I still think they should be merged, since two traits with the same function would add needless bloat to the system.

>>32801228
They were always one trait, people just used both names for it.

>>32801545

Yeah, typo on the float. Just going to merge flight as a subsection of the moment mechanics, most likely.

>>32801568

Movement*.

>>32801568
Not everything can fly, though.

>>32802120
While flight would be listed under the movement rules, that doesn't mean it'd be used for everyone, just those that can fly.

Current ideas for Bell:

[Level 1]
- Ring-Ding - Melee
Effect: Produces a loud noise that damages an enemy in melee range of the user for X damage. Can be used underwater.

[Level 2]
- Twin Tinker - Midrange (6 blocks or fewer)
Effect: A sound wave shoots out, hitting an enemy in midrange.

[Level 3]
- Ring-Ding-Dong - Melee
Effect: Produces a series of loud noises that damages an enemy in Melee range for X damage per number of successes. Replaces Ring-Ding
- Sting-Ding - Melee AOE
Effect: Spins around and produces a loud noise that damages all enemies within Melee range for 2X damage.

[Level 4]
- Bell Block - Self
Effect: Shields the creature with a large Bell. The next defense roll counts as an automatic (2/3) successes.

[Level 5]
- Encore - Special
Effect: Anyone within Long range of the user (15 blocks) takes 2X damage. Anyone within Midrange (9 blocks) takes 3X damage. Anyone within Close range takes 4X damage. Anyone within Melee range takes 5X damage.

This is just what I have so far. Some stuff could be moved around, and we should probably set it up so each level provides two new moves. And, in all honesty, Encore's effect is just copied from Crash Fireball (Then again, they have the same effect in the games). I'm kinda worried that this ability could have the same problem as DnD's Monks, with it being too all over the place to be of any use.

I absolutely love the official names for moves.

>>32803112
I think it would work fine. It's currently a fairy good melee combatant with a bit of range when needed.

It could probably use a smaller version of the encore ability, just hitting enemies within a small radius, but a bit further out than melee.

>>32803276
Okay. I guess we could add this:

[Level 4]
-Tinker Melody - Close Range AOE
Effect: Damages Close range for 2X damage, and anyone in Melee range for 3X damage

Might throw in Midrange for X damage, but I'm worried that could get too overpowered.

Maybe have Bell Block do X damage if it successfully blocks an attack?

>>32803551
I like bell block doing damage, but maybe only against melee attacks. A sword hitting it would cause vibrations and hurt the wielder, but an arrow from a bow user wouldn't make as much sense.

That said, I think the only thing missing might be cooldown rules on some of the more powerful abilities. I think the only things on that list that would need a cooldown to help balance them out is a 2 turn cooldown on the Tinker Melody, and a fairly severe cooldown on encore.

I'm still trying to figure out what the power of level 5 abilities is. So far a lot of screen-clearing attacks are ending up there, and screen-clearing attacks should not be usable very often. Even once per fight/scene is too much.

I think what might be fair for all abilities is pumping up the power of level 5 skills, while restricting characters to only using a level 5 skill once per day. That would give each ability a powerful capstone to look forward to.

>>32803794
That sounds good.

So, for Bell, we have:

[Level 1]
- Ring-Ding - Melee
Effect: Produces a loud noise that damages an enemy in melee range of the user for X damage. Can be used underwater.

[Level 2]
- Twin Tinker - Midrange (6 blocks or fewer)
Effect: A sound wave shoots out, hitting an enemy in midrange.

[Level 3]
- Ring-Ding-Dong - Melee
Effect: When using Ring-Ding, deal damage for each success
- Sting-Ding - Melee AOE
Effect: Spins around and produces a loud noise that damages all enemies within Melee range for 2X damage.

[Level 4]
- Bell Block - Self
Effect: Shields the creature with a large Bell. The next defense roll counts as an automatic (2/3) successes. Does X damage against successfully blocked Melee attacks.
- Tinker Melody - Close range AOE
Effect: Damages anyone in Close range for 2X damage, and anyone in Melee range for 3X damage. Has a 2 round cooldown.

[Level 5]
- Encore - Special
Effect: Anyone within Long range of the user (15 blocks) takes 2X damage. Anyone within Midrange (9 blocks) takes 3X damage. Anyone within Close range takes 4X damage. Anyone within Melee range takes 5X damage. Can only be used once every 5 encounters.

Also, perhaps we could use Legend's [Round], [Encounter], [Scene], [Quest] timeframes? Scene can be re-fluffed as Stage, Quest as World. Scene is typically defined as 3-5 encounters. Generally, it's expected that one session represents one [Scene], but considering the pace of this game, players might be able to get in a couple of [Scenes] a session.

>>32803112
Are those seriously the official names? I was about to yell at you for making up ridiculously silly names, but then I saw that.

The Mike ability works three times, each time with a different sort of microphone. Perhaps we can do something with that?

Also, I believe the combined ability is being referred to as "Music".

>>32802195
Ah, so they'd have a line that said "Mobility: Hover X", "Mobility: immobile", "Mobility: Jump X", and so on? Now that I think of it, should we implement swim as another type of movement, or let things like fish be reflected by having hover and a trait that causes them to lose it out of the water? Probably the latter.

Also, I dunno if Flight is the best word for kirby's puffing, but I can't think of a better word for it.

>>32803794
I think the solution is the opposite. Tone down the power of the level 5s, and introduce a new level, named final or ultimate or something. Put the one-use stuff like Mike/Crash in there, as well as the giga abilities and the hypernova inhalation thing. Once you use an ultimate ability, you lose the ability in question (if a copier) or simply cannot reuse the ultimate attack until you visit a Copy Pedestal (or whatever they're called) of the corresponding ability. Copiers must find and eat (or scan, I guess, though the fruit's still gone) a rainbow fruit before using another ultimate ability of any type.

>>32804280
Yep. Those are the official names for the Bell ability.

And I believe Mobility stuff was gonna be through traits. The method of moving into the air is Jump unless otherwise noted. Hover means free movement in the air without having to exert effort, but they're effectively immobilized if they're grounded by some means., Fly means stuff like how Kirby floats. They have to exert effort, and if they try to attack, they start to fall.

I outlined underwater movement rules as
-Movement and fall speed are halved in water.
-Attacks are limited to a basic melee-range attack unless noted.
-Movement mode is automatically set to Fly when in the water.
-Creatures can float on top of the water unless otherwise noted.
-[Aquatic] negates movement speed penalty in water, sets mobility mode to Hover while underwater.

Possibly give stuff with [Aquatic] a movement penalty on land and set their movement to Jump while on land.

Other possible stuff would be creatures with the [Mineral] trait not being able to float on top of water, and falling to the bottom of the body of water at normal falling speed, some sort of trait that causes creatures with it to "fall up" when in the water. Rather than falling at halved fall speed until they hit the bottom, they float up (possibly at normal falling speed?) until they reach the surface. This could be used as the new definition of the [Float] trait. I could definitely see this being used for the Ball ability.

>>32804223
I like Round, Encounter, Stage, World. A lot of the single use abilities would fit well into being once per stage. We'd need to get into super-abilities before finding things that are strong enough to be restricted to once per world though.

>>32807212
Quest-based durations don't come up much in Legend either, so it probably won't come up that much here

Also, after this project is finished, I kinda wanna work on a Chibi-Robo based game.

There's some other stuff that I wanna do after we've set up the rules stuff too, like a set of optional rules (For one-off mechanics that only come up in one or two games, like Squeak Squad's environment interaction for certain abilities) and some pregen characters.

Also, possible movement mode: Climb. The Creature cannot jump, but can move along walls and ceilings as if they were walking. They may fall off a wall or ceiling at will.

>>32807858
I should add that, unlike Jump and Hover, Climb would not automatically become Fly in water, but would still have movement speed reduced.

>>32807948
>>32807858
I'm trying to think of kirby abilities or enemies that climb, but I'm having trouble thinking of examples. I know ninja can stick to walls, but that doesn't feel like what you're referring to

>>32805506
Mineral already makes you sink in water, so that's done. Also, enough things have unusual methods of movement and movement is such a fundamental quality, we probably should have a Movement entry for ease of checking.

I've attempted to list all relevant modes of movement, along with any common trait modifications that may accompany them.

Hover - Hover unless grounded. (Aquatic - movement changes to jump out of water, possible flopping rule preventing walking or limiting movement not done by jumping to one square,
Flight (rename suggestions?) - Kirby's puffing or helper's infinite jumps. can also jump.
Jump (rename to suggest running and jumping?) - Jumping and walking. (groundbound - cannot jump)
Climb - Cannot jump, but may move along walls and ceilings, and drop off them.
Immobile: Shotzo. (Supported - does not fall if nothing is under it. Actually, just make it hover 0.)

>>32804456
Comments on this?

Hmmm. Anybody have any idea where Inanimate went? He is currently the fellow in charge of the PFD, and there are some bits that we should probably add to it, now that we've worked out the mechanics some more.

>>32808734
I'd be fine with lowering the power of level 5s and creating a level above it, but we'd need to come up with a few new powers for abilities.

I think the current big thing to do would be to figure out reasonable damage thresholds for various levels of ability. Just how much damage should a power do if it targets 1 enemy, a small group, or a large group?

>>32809007
After all of the work that we've done throughout this thread and the latter half of the previous thread, the .pdf currently needs an overhaul to reflect all of the mechanics we have set in stone. Really the only things that remained the same were the Qualities and the setting fluff, everything else was either fleshed out or redone for the better.

>>32809112

I dunno, I feel most abilities scale just fine at level 5, and that adding any more levels on top of that is redundant. Most basic attacks I would guess would do one or two points of vitality damage if we're going to do double vita.

>>32810421
I feel like we should at least double health for players and mini-bosses. Standard enemies would be just fine only having a few points of health.

As for damage, I think 1 or 2 on basic attacks is fair.

>>32810421
It provides an excellent way to implement limited-use abilities, in my opinion.

>>32810813
I agree for minibosses, but I'm not certain about players. I'm leaning toward keeping it for now, and testing out alternate player healths on playtesting.

Also, I just noticed this post and like it immensely. >>32737925

>>32811766
Glad you liked it. I feel like going for binary status on positioning is a good thing. Either you're flying or you aren't. Either you're swimming or not. You're either in the foreground or in the background.

To add onto the gridless rules, we should also come up with a guidline for movement distance. I feel like most characters should be able to move anywhere within close range during a turn, with faster ones being able to move anywhere within midrange.

Not sure on how we want to handle moving & attacking in a turn, or dash attacks for that matter.

>>32811766

Hmmm, shouldn't midbossing and bossing be statuses unto themselves, bestowing bonuses such as increased vitality? It would make the most sense, seeing as both Mid-bosses (Bonkers) and Bosses (Dedede) are playable.

>>32813151
I suppose. The big question for how many hitpoints players should have is more dependent on how much damage enemies are doing.

Assuming enemy damage caps out at around 3 for most of their attacks, we would need player HP to be at least 4. We don't want players getting one-shot constantly.

We could potentially make it a formula based on toughness and character level, but it depends on where the minimum health and maximum health fall.

something I want to see is balancing bosses so that they're able to be beaten by Kirby alone with some craftiness on the player's side*, yet also manage to pull a challenge for larger groups of players, without changing their base stats or damage beyond what the boss tags already do. The best way I can think of doing this is adjusting their attack patterns to react differently depending on how many targets it is facing, as well as giving solo characters a higher learning rate in order to keep up with the kirb- er, curb. Of course, some bosses are inherently going to be weaker or stronger in one dynamic or the other, but that's just the nature of the beast.

>>32814829
I'm imagining for some bosses such as Meta Knight or the Squeak Squad would call in their respective mooks for back up, thus padding out the battle by numbers. And for something like Wham Bam or whatever the non-final ending version of Zero is in Crystal Shards would become erratic and try to either heavily focus one party member at a time or spread their power to attack all at once in frantic patterns. Otherwise they would behave like their in-game counterparts.

>>32814829
Well, the easy way to make bosses more difficult for groups is to give them more turns when they're facing more people.

Maybe for every 2 additional players, the boss get's an extra turn or attack. They could also have a bit of extra health when fighting a large group.

How did we want to handle boss attack patterns though? Did we want to just have a list of abilities with conditions for usage, then roll a dice to see which one it uses? That would work, but it's also a bit dry.

>>32815014
Playing devil's advocate, Kirby's boss battles can get dry for a veteran of the series to. You watch for the pattern then whip it's ass. Rinse, repeat, do the victory dance. But for someone that is new to it, it could be exciting to see that the boss forms a pattern and then exploiting that pattern to victory.

In order to keep this feeling in DLD6 I say we come up with the boss' attack patterns but have them vary from the games so someone can't just play the vidya and expect to roll into a tabletop thinking their top shit. Maybe for more erratic bosses have it based on dice roll to determine set action, but majority should follow a pattern.

>>32815085
Well, the main person I figured it would be dry for is the GM. With small enemies you have more control, but with bosses you'd pretty much be sitting there deciphering a flow-chart as you keep track of it's health.

How about something a bit different. What if each boss had it's patterns split into groups. Some of them would consist of a single attack, while others would be a series of attacks that are done in quick succession. Then, each of those groupings would be put onto a card (most likely just having the names of the groupings on cards), and the boss would use whichever grouping it drew.

This allows a lot of interesting dynamics. You can change the ratio of certain cards to make the fight more or less challenging. There could be a critical mode mechanic where a boss starts drawing more cards when low on health. You could implement wild cards where the DM gets control for a moment to have the creature use a power of his choice in a tactical way. It would also make it somewhat easier to piece together homebrew bosses, since rather than coming up with your own pattern based on all the existing abilities, you can just throw in the groups that fit the bosses' theme and stick with those.

>>32815243

Sounds like a plan.

So, recap, what we have done so far is:
Movement modes (Run, Fly, Hover, Climb)
Skills for Music, Archer, and Bomb
Other movement status (swimming, background) as binary status
Swimming mechanics
Double HP for PCs and minibosses. Boss HP scales w/# of PCs
Boss patterns based on cards.

Yo, someone should archive this.

>>32815243
Huh, that actually seems like a pretty good idea. Some bosses are impossible to hurt (either at all or via not having an ability and nothing to spit at them) unless they perform a particular attack, so how about they must perform that attack to redraw their cards once they're used up?

Those attacks should also be on cards, of course. Perhaps a [Vulnerable] or [Redraw] tag on attacks which expose a weak point, or, for those bosses without weak points, leave behind something able to be swallowed for an ability or exhaled/thrown at them. Once a boss is out of the cards they drew, they must perform an (level 1, assuming boss abilities have some sort of rating akin to ability powers) attack with the [Redraw] tag, for which they do not need the card, to draw a new set of attacks.

>>32819668
I'm for just having regular HP for PCs, and triple HP for bosses, with the number of cards they draw or deck composition balancing them against differing numbers of players.

>>32820855
I like that, although I'm not sure how many bosses that weak point restriction.

Rather than having certain cards make them vulnerable, maybe it would be easier to just have certain cards make them invincible?

After all, then we only need to have a single {Invincibility] tag, which can also be used for other bosses or PC powers as well.

>>32824265
Okay, that would work great.

>>32824265
Well, there are a number of bosses who are invulnerable during certain attacks. However, a boss that is by default invulnerable unless it exposes itself would have the majority of its cards tagged - risking the old problem of the boss never actually deciding to make itself vulnerable. Tying it into redrawing ensures the boss is vulnerable every X turns.

As for bosses lacking weak points, their redraw attacks would still help the players. They'd be things like whispy woods dropping the apples you can spit out at him, or a charge that leaves them stunned and easier to hit, and so on.

Invulnerability wouldn't be the default for bosses, they'd have a trait. So redraw wouldn't have to be applied to all the cards of a noninvincible boss.

>>32827049
Well, for a boss that is supposed to be invincible except during certain attacks, rather than giving it an invincible trait and having certain cards remove it, it'd be simpler to just have all the cards have the invulnerable status on them, except those where he's vulnerable.

I like the idea of having a default attack which shuffles the cards back into the deck. It depends on how big we want the decks to be though. It also shouldn't be the only point the boss is vulnerable, or could show up on cards as well.

>>32827218
But again, this risks the boss not drawing the cards that don't make him vulnerable.

Also, I agree with you that the redraw attacks should also be on cards. Limiting vulnerability to when the boss runs out of cards would probably be just as annoying.

Just to make sure I'm understanding your opinion correctly, you are in favor of a basic attack(s) that is performed to draw a new set of cards, but either makes the boss vulnerable, applies a penalty to it, or leaves an aftereffect which can be used against the boss or help the players. However, you believe that bosses which are ususally invincible should be reflected by the majority of their cards sporting the [invulnerable] tag.

If this is the case, the latter issue is mostly one of preference. As I see it, traits should be applied to the creature if the quality they grant is the norm for it, and given via an ability or attack if it only applies some of the time. That is, one note that a boss is usually invulnerable in its entry and, say, 5 out of 20 card that state they make the boss vulnerabe is simpler than 15 cards which say the boss is invincible for a turn if it uses that ability. Also, it feels more intuitive, I guess?

>>32828137
I suppose it depends on how we want to structure bosses overall. I imagined that it would be possible using the card system to make your own bosses, and import groupings from various bosses in order to create a new one.

The question is would it be better to have invulnerable bosses with vulnerable cards, or vulnerable bosses with invulnerable cards. I'd argue that the latter is preferable, since many bosses who aren't usually invulnerable have attacks that make them invulnerable. This means we don't have to write down the rules for invulnerability as well as non-invulerability, and can have a single rule.

>>32828326
I can see your point, and given the strict choice between the two I would agree with you. However, there's no reason we can't have an [invulnerable] tag in addition to an [invulnerable] trait, for attacks which make a usually vulnerable boss unable to be hit.

Man, the word 'vulnerable' is starting to sound funny.

>>32829607
I feel like an invulnerable trait is dangerous to have exist at all. There's always the possiblity that someone doesn't understand how it works and makes an invulnerable boss with no vulnerable powers, or someone else designing powers later makes one that let's you copy the trait of a boss.

Another reason to not include it is that writing up a specific vulnerable rule to interact with the invulnerable trait is very unnecessary and just wastes space.

Consider the two options:
1) All bosses function normally. Invulnerable bosses have a high number of cards with the Invulnerable tag on them. The invulnerable tag is listed in the common rules, where it is used for players and enemies alike.

2) Some bosses have the invulnerable trait. This trait would need to be listed in an enemy-exclusive trait section. The description of such a trait would need to describe the invulnerable status, which would also be listed under the normal statuses. A few of the bosses powers would list the vulnerable keyword, which would need to have it's rules written elsewhere, describing how it overrides the invulnerable trait. Unlike the invulnerable keyword, the vulnerable keyword wouldn't really be used for players or most enemies, basically restricting it to only invulnerable bosses.

Using the second system triples the amount of rules, and the only thing it really removes is the need to put invulnerable on most of a bosses attacks.

We were already planning on including status conditions (Mainly ones that forced your ability to the level-1 version of another copy ability. Such as Canvas Curse for Ball and an Epic Yarn one for Whip). We could easily have an Invulnerable status effect, and have certain moves inflict the Invulnerable effect on the boss. It provides a way of having some bosses be invulnerable outside of certain attacks, and doesn't create the problem of player characters exploiting an ability to grant themselves a trait that provides invulnerability. It's only a temporary effect that lasts a couple of turns, and if a player finds a way to copy it (And I doubt we'd even have anything that copies status conditions anyways, since they'd mostly be negative), it would only last them a couple of rounds at most.

>>32830860
A way to copy status effects is about as likely as a way to copy boss traits, given the relatively unformed nature of the game so far.

>>32830119
The needed amount of rules for each aren't so different. Gordos, just as an example, are also invincible, so even if there ended up not being a section on boss-only traits, it would still go in the basic pool. Effects that temporarily grant invulnerability would simply grant the invulnerable trait for X amount of time. Vulnerable would, indeed, not often be used, which is why we shouldn't. Just put them in the cards for the invulnerable boss you're creating : "Maximum Laser: [Redraw] The spacehip diverts all power to charge a big laser, which [attack effects here]. This depletes the power in the sheilds and removes the Candy Spaceship's invulnerabilty trait until its next turn."

As for making a completely invulnerable boss and such, I understand your concern, but seriously doubt anyone is stupid enough to do this. We could put in a sidebar on what not to do with invincibility, though. Can't hurt.

I'm not sure if doing it this way is shorter - I think it's at least close - but it makes a lot more sense.

>>32819668
>>32815243

While I have to admit, I was initially sort of iffy on the whole card system, they way you've managed to spin it should make it fairly simple and straightforward to pick up and use for the GM.

As for how invincibility should work, I'm currently looking at it as a status. This is what both boss cards dish out to bosses, and is also what Invincibility Candy gives to users.

An Invincible "trait" could be possible, but I fear it would be abused by GMs for lazy encounters. Not even Gordos and Shotzos are invincible 100% of the time, and I'm considering making the former an obstacle rather then an actual creature, but that would put Captain Stich in a bind.

>>32833583
Agreed. Keep Invincible as a status that acts as a result of Boss stuff and Invincibility Candy. Gordos and Shotzos are more obstacle than enemy in the games anyways.

>>32833583
The main benefit of the card system is that we don't need to have a table of boss behaviors for every individual boss, just a list of abilities and a recommended number for each card in a deck.

>>32833583
First off, I'm assuming we're ignoring the possibility of completely unbeatable encounters, because that's just ridiculous.

Given that, wouldn't it be nearly as easy to continually apply the [invulnerable] status effect? Not to mention, the redraw mechanic ensures bosses are vulnerable at least once every draw cycle.

>Not even Gordos and Shotzos are invincible 100% of the time
Are they? I honestly did not know this. Shotzos can fall off the screen, but that's all I know of.

>>32834916
Making an invulnerable trait is just creating something unneeded that requires something else to take away. Why make an invulnerable trait, vulnerable status, and invulnerable status when we could just make an invulnerable status instead?

>>32834916

In a handful of games, Gordos will explode when thrown with enough impact by bosses, and Captain Stich, a big Gordo midboss (though, he's strong enough to be on par with some of the easier bosses), reveals that Gordos are vulnerable to damage when they lose their spikes.

Shotzos are vulnerable to Super Abilities, being inhaled by throw while suspended in the air with Throw, being grabbed by Back-Drop while airborne and smashed, and in the case of the very first game being hit by Kirby while he has Invincibility, or getting hit by Mike.

>>32834990
But we're not making a vulnerable status, the trait is suppressed via the attack description. The invulnerable status is much the same, just make invincible candy or a particular attack give you the trait for however many rounds.

Plus "This character cannot take damage from attacks" plus any duration and any other rules text needed really isn't that long.

>>32834990
Because when creating an inv. boss, you'd have to decide which attacks will make it vulnerable, get all the cards which aren't those cards, and make them give the boss their armor plating or whatever for a turn, instead of just adding the trait and only modifying the redraw cards.

>>32835257
>>32835331
Alright. Since we're not really getting anywhere with this discussion, let me ask this. What's the benefit of having an invulnerable trait, as opposed to placing the invulnerable keyword at the top of all of a boss's cards?

>>32835386
It makes more sense, cards can be more easily made, and the requirement to use a redraw attack to redraw cards makes sure the boss is vulnerable at least once every draw phase.

>>32835800
>Cards can be more easily made
This is debatable, since it's a difference between writing invulnerable in the corner of cards or writing vulnerable in the corner of others.

As for the requirement to use a redraw attack to redraw cards, that isn't an actual benefit. Both systems implement that without a problem, since the redraw phase being a vulnerable phase isn't unique to either.

You have me on it making sense, from a fluff standpoint at least.

I'll state again that having invulnerability as a status that can be gained from preforming certain attacks cuts down on the amount of rules that need to be explained though.

With that, the difference between a vulnerable boss and an invulnerable boss is that a vulnerable boss would have 1 or 2 attacks that make it invulnerable, while an invulnerable boss would have all but 1 or 2 attacks make it invulnerable.

With the other system, you have 2 different keywords to worry about, as well as a separate trait.

Kicking this thread up a bit in hopes of hearing more on the bosses. This system sounds mighty interesting.

>>32835908
I should clarify that I'm not in favor of a separate 'vulnerable' keyword, since invulnerable bosses should be uncommon enough that the rules text of those attacks which make them vulnerable suspend the trait. Likewise, attacks that make a boss invincible would give the trait for a turn or so.

My apologies on the redraw thing. I forgot that redraw attacks could simply not have the invulnerable tag.

In the end, I suppose it's a tradeoff between sense and being efficient with the application of tags, and keeping down the number of traits.

File: Dark Matter Medley Full.png (559 KB, 1528x910)

559 KB PNG

Wish I had a good image to bump this with, but my scanner is currently on the fritz. So recycled stock it is.

Anyway, nice work on churning out the card system. I'm still going on the iffy side with making Invulnerable a trait though: Captain Stich is currently a playable character under the game's existing constraints, and without the card system to dictate his actions and limit his invincibility to when he's a midboss (we're going to use cards for midbosses too, right?), he can wreck the whole game as a PC with omnipresent invincible.

Come to think of it, ole' Stich could likely trivialize a great deal of Dreamland's troubles if he wasn't such a jerk.

>>32840799
Unfortunately, he's probably not a practical character - there's not much reason for him to be adventuring without his spikes. With that said, [invulnerable] would probably be listed among other boss/midboss only qualities, since gordos and shotzos have vulnerabilities like super abilities and grappling(though gordos are spiky so that's mostly shotzos)

I'm not sure whether to use cards for midbosses, but I'm leaning towards not, since they tend to have less attacks. The walrus guy can just run at you and spit out ice blocks, if i recall correctly.

>>32840799
>>32841599
I feel like mid-bosses should be statted up like PCs, with limited use of abilities, with one or two special attacks.

For example, bonkers would have some hammer abilities, as well as his special seed throwing attack.

>>32841599

Hmmm. Would there be some way to dictate that he's vulnerable after launching his spikes without making up a special rule just for him? I've been thinking about giving Shotzos a special "Hardened" trait that makes them immune to all attacks accept for grappling and SAs, while Gordos will spawn with an "item" called spikes or something that when held bestows the ability, as well as makes them ungrapplable. Captain Stitch in particular would use an attack to fire them as per games, which would expose him to attack and momentarily remove the trait on him.

Eh. The GM should play midbosses with at least some competence to make them a credible threat to a PC, if not a whole group of PCs. Come to think of it, lots of Midbosses, like Poppy Bro Senior, Box Boxer, Kibble Blade, and Flame Galboro, could all be considered standard creatures given the midboss and big tags (in fact, in Flame Galboro's first appearance in 64, he was just a Galboro given an increased size and health), and going by the current way the system works, a Poppy Bro with Big PC would be functionally identical to Poppy Bro Sr. statwise. Then again, I'm considering placing most midbosses in the character category for completeness-sake, but it would be possible for a GM to make a previously non-existent midboss like say...a Super Tic, simply by giving it the mid-boss tag.

On an aside, it would appear this thread is running out of steam, and should probably be archived somewhere, though I'm saving a text dump just in case.

>>32842392
That's a good idea. We've made a lot of progress on how to handle abilities and bosses. We're at the point where we can just get people designing things, although we still need a guidline for ability damage by level and range. We don't want people making attacks too overpowered.

>>32842392
>>32842448

And done. Next thread coming soon, though it's funny to think that this one could last a week while most Kirbeh threads on /v/ last three hours tops and still gather more posts.

>>32842502

>Not separating the tags with commas.

Meh, we'll just link it to thread no. 3, and it shall be the absurdly difficult to find edition, kinda like those certain parts of a video series that just seem impossible to track.