>>34032004
Kirkwall

>>34032004
I'd buy her.
Or preferably the one leaning on the desk, the lazy, feculent scum.

>>34032004
Nazi Germany, but with all the untermensch already dead and nobody cares because the dictator is running everything just fine. Trains run on time no homeless no litter etc

Before theyarrive in town they pass through the mountain pass where all the bodies were left, rotten, unburied just bones in.great piles as far as you can see, completely filling ravines etc

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>>34032004
>LE city
>whole city
>LE
You could just say "i want my players visit a shithole", but nooooooooooo

also
>Caste systems
>always evil

Highly beuracratic. If you do t have the right papers or enough money, you won't be able to get anything. If your starving to death, no one will do anything because its of no benefit to them. Seeking to wed? You'll need to get a thirty seven C, which requires a 9 88, and to get that you'll need to take a PSAT, which has a two pound fee attached. People follow the rules because they don't want to get into personal hassles, and will always follow procedure even at the clear detriment of common sense or human decency

>>34032054
You seem to have no clue. About anything.

>>34032004
Omelas feels like a lawful evil person made it

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Complex legal codes that make almost everyone break the law in the course of their day to day lives, but are only enforced in order to punish people that have attracted negative attention or are part of a disliked group.

An oppressed group or groups that face serious difficult within the city. Go for something fantastic but easy to grasp, like red heads or people with blue eyes being second class citizens.

A healthy respect bordering on fear for the police and legal system.

>>34032052
Also for maximum despair, the dictator should be the only important individual responsible still alive and before the players can revenge kill him after some sessions of PC mayhem, he dies of old age and is cremated, leaving them no-one to revenge and literally no survivors of the killed people so no-one to even give reparations to.

>>34032004
If everyone was lawful evil wouldn't lawful evil be neutral?

Strict breeding laws.
The kind of thing where lower classes get castrated if they're of unsuitable size or excessive intelligence, while the higher classes have men who are used like studs and impregnate hundreds of chosen women.

City guards with licenses to judge and kill the lower classes with absolute impunity.

Food and Entertainment are distributed for free to the lower classes.

>>34032020
Kirkwall just never had any competent leadership, and had no sane, reasonable people in power to point out that the leader of the Templars was a fucking retarded nutcase.

>>34032081
why so?

Caste systems could be done differently than "lol rich and poor, fuck those poor people".

>>34032121
Exactly

>>34032118
>Food and Entertainment are distributed for free to the lower classes.

What is LE about it? I like an idea, though.

>>34032107
Thats not how it works, no

You need a permit for doing anything: trade, city entry, passage to different districts, city exit, carrying weapons/magic/proscribed goods, wearing certain colours, etc. Anyone operating within the city must pay taxes and taxes require a permit. Permits are expensive and limited. If you do not have a permit, you will be arrested, tried and probably executed.

>>34032004
Washington DC

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>>34032107
Naw, a small but powerful group could dominate a city, resulting in a very negative environment, while most people were just trying to get by and live their lives without getting into trouble.

Also, alignment is stupid shit.

>>34032139
Cities, if we talk about them in GENERAL Alignment terms, also have all other alignments in them. Not EVERYONE is LE.

As for cast systems, they do not need to be evil. But are something one may nicely integrate in LE city.

And that's it. This is not an anthropological debate.

laws, especially for the lower castes, regulating the most petty things about people's daily lives.

The primary punishment for basically any crime (short of "revolutionary" ones) is a fine, the size of which doesn't change all that much as we go from a lower caste person having slightly too fancy clothes to outright murder.

If you can't pay the fine however, things get creatively nasty. Mutilation, horrible death, and so on. This means the guys on top pay a for them pretty insignificant fine for the most heinous crimes, while those at the bottom can end up mutilated, enslaved, or broken on the wheel for the most insignificant thing. Having the players first impression of a city being someone being broken on the wheel for failing to pay the fines after having painted his front door the wrong color should drive home the harsh bit.

Also, shared responsibility. Maybe on a family basis, or based on groups of families living as neighbours. It's everyone's duty to prevent everyone else in their group from committing any crimes, or to report them if they do. Failure to do so, well, it hurts. And as always this is probably mostly a thing for the lower castes.

And grabbing one from reality, torture can be used against anyone in a case, accused, victim or witness if the judge feels someone isn't entirely truthful about things.

>>34032132
Cities, if we talk about them in GENERAL Alignment terms, also have all other alignments in them. Not EVERYONE is LE.

As for cast systems, they do not need to be evil. But are something one may nicely integrate in LE city.

And that's it. This is not an anthropological debate.

>>34032143
For extra evil, you only really need those permits if you are a blonde. Proper brunettes, with their superior breeding and intelligence, face only minor fines if they fail to have a permit, and even then are often given only a warning.

...Megacity One if the Judges had their way all the time?
>>34032158
>Also, alignment is stupid shit.
This. Even if we say BUT OBJECTIVE EVIL EXISTS IN THIS WORLD/SETTING it still breaks down even when tested using only its internal logic.

Man i'm just picturing buildings who are plotting to usurp the throne, roads that are setting up assassinations, and sewers that are using blackmail to extort money from the kingdom.

>>34032164
>>34032174
Cities, if we talk about them in GENERAL Alignment terms, also have all other alignments in them. Not EVERYONE is LE.

As for cast systems, they do not need to be evil. But are something one may nicely integrate in LE city.

And that's it. This is not an anthropological debate.

The law should be absolute and uncaring.
Have everything revolve around money and power.
A clear difference between the rich and the poor should create a suitable atmosphere.
The people should also be uncaring about others.

>>34032185
>Man i'm just picturing buildings who are plotting to usurp the throne, roads that are setting up assassinations, and sewers that are using blackmail to extort money from the kingdom.

"For when Bestow Sentience goes too far".

>>34032185
You really only get that in Sigil. When they have a bad neighborhood, it's a Bad neighborhood.

>>34032180
no it doesn't.

Lets just use good editions alignment rather than 3.5, to clarify.

Full Bureaucracy is more LN than anything else, even the examples where permits are limited and hard to get.

A Lawful Evil city would look like a city run by an autocrat. A city where people are not only censored, they self-censor because the ruler has instituted a culture where everybody is rewarded for tattling on each other, not with material goods but with social standing, and everything is potentially up for debate. Nobody rises up because the language used to describe revolt has been erased, repurposed, or simply doesn't exist anymore.

Meanwhile, the ruler passes down harsh edicts from time to time, or musters armies to go muscle some tribute from the next city-state over, but life goes on, and the city is relatively nice to live in. But it's very much a living example of "talk shit get hit"

>>34032210
What's the difference between "good editions alignment" and "3.5 alignment"?

>>34032139
Serves a couple purposes.

1. Grants a veneer of good. You can't have a society that people think is pure evil without people trying to rebel and change it.

2. The entertainment keeps the lower classes occupied and uneducated, while directing any ill will they might have to other targets rather than towards the true source of their despair. Also, there is no easier tool to use to control a group than entertainment.

3. The food being distributed makes the lower classes dependent on the government, while also breeding sloth and gluttony, reinforcing ideas of inferiority, and basically ingraining people into the system in a way where refusal to go along with the way things are would lead to an immediately worse situation.

Bread and Circuses.

>>34032232
That's one possibility. It's really not that hard to come up with examples of ways that the rule of law can be turned to evil.

>>34032242
3.5 not being a good edition HUE HUE HUE.
Not him.

>>34032253

The thing about using bureaucracies to describe something as evil is that by their very nature, bureaucracies must encompass everybody and everything, which is intrinsically part of LN's mindset. Now, people don't like bureaucracies because they take forever and make people wait on lines, but I don't know if you could consider drudgery evil or not.

>>34032004
Singapore with slave markets, extra class disparity, imported french bureaucrats and shitty weather. welcome to hell

>>34032180
I don't see a problem with alignment in this case. All evil means per the 3.x phb (and remember, primary source trumps all else in case of discrepancies in 3.x) is a willingness to harm or threaten innocents to achieve their goals, and as a result, an evil government can range from comically tyrannical, to perverse and dystopian, to distressingly familiar.

>>34032004
Different houses is always a fun one, Game of Thrones style.

>>34032052
I've always wondered how a post-Hitler, stable Nazi Germany would be. Probably like a more paranoid version of Japan.

The casual talk of killing is stupid

LE will NEVER kill you.

They will fine you, put you in indentured servitude, keep you prisoner, force you to work for them, make you pay them back, cheat you of your earnings, protect their investment, and otherwise get what you owe.

Dead people can rarely ay debts.

>>34032305
Game of Thrones is the very definition of a NE world, complete with every character being some shade of NE.

Fine writing, but I'm worried about the books getting into the hands of children.

>>34032242

AD&D, PF, 5e (???) alignment = ends
3.x alignment = means

Ergo, genocide and slavery are 100% acceptable in AD&D or Pathfinder if you feel its necessary.

Whereas in 3.x you may have to walk on eggshells, as killing innocents is an evil act and paladins are required to punish those who harm or threaten innocents, not merely evil people who do so.

Basically, in other editions, alignment is more permissive, in 3.x, alignment is much more restrictive.

4e's vague as all hell.

>>34032242
good editins alignment is based on real philosphilosophy, your alignment is based on your characters moral outlook, not stuff like "your lawful if you have a code, unless its a chaotic code!".

Good = Altruism
Evil = Selfishness
(Neutral being weird philosophy types who believe neither in helping others or themselves, being a minority, with most humans being evil or good, unlike later editions where it says a normal person in neutral)

Law = Society, as an extremist outlook, no negotiations possible
Chaos = Individualism, as an extremist outlook, no negotiations possible
nuetral being someone who takes an ordinary balance - most people are neutral on this scale

Hitler is LE, because he combines Self with Society, meaning he believes in helping his own society and does not care about what happens to other people

Ayn Rand is CE, because Self with Indivudialism, believing all people have the right to act towards their own benefit and any form of community exists only to impede the strong and aid the weak

Lawful Good Paladins, from first edition, do not believe in fair trial, because the rights of society to have damaging individuals removed from reality overules their rights as a person, they will even kill captured prisoners who have converted, provably, to LG, because under their philosophy, that is moral, because they risk of them returning to evil and harming innocents overules their rights as an individual

Neutral Good is the only sensible option, paladins were never meant to be the "best" moral characters, NG is supposed to be that

>>34032306
That really depends on how you see it working out. How exactly would Nazi Germany survive after the death of Hitler? You haven't provided enough information for speculation.

>>34032336
Where's the source on that in PF? I was under the impression it was ends, not means.

>>34032348
I was with you until the paladins started killing innocents. They're Lawful and Good, not just Lawful. They can choose which mistress to sleep with.

/r/ing that image.

>>34032324
You say that, but even RL, there's an army of doctrinally motivated psychos who dehumanize their enemies and have massacred a thousand or so helpless people out there as we speak, killing people because a book told them its okay and necessary for securing their dominion. A healthy degree of wanting to genocide people of different religions probably favors into it.

Presumably, though, you refer to not killing their *own* people whenever possible. What defines a LE types' in-group, however, may be hazy.

>>34032376
good is defined as altuism, and lawful good specifically says that THEY BELIEVE it is ok to sacrifice others to preserve the majority.

Lawful Good is not Lawful + Good, in 1e, it is a distinct aligntment, referred to as LG.

THEY BELIEVE they are helping others by killing them, and thus they are good

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>>34032348
You are an idiot who didn't actually read how 3.5 treats alignments, and that's fine, because they're large subjective and alignments will always be the source of the majority of disputes regarding the game.

You have a hard-on for neutral while vilifying lawful, and that's where you're skewed perception comes from.

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>>34032348

>Good = Altruism
>Evil = Selfishness

[citation needed]

Also, Randians fit pretty solidly into 1e Chaotic Good -- "freedom is as important as life" sounds exactly ancap/libertarian/objectivist/whatever.

So in conclusion:

Altruism isn't required in 1e good
In 2e good, good has no absolute values, so obviously altruism isn't required there
3e is "bad" so doesn't count
4e good absolutely doesn't require altruism
5e good is fairly arbitrary

>>34032360
I thought I said PF's was ends, not means?

their online SRD's alignment section is 100% nebulous as to what a good char can and cannot do (there is, in fact, no proscriptive text involved, that I could recall) and lists the example of killing goblin children being okay if you think they're irredeemable.

I got some really enthusiastic feedback from my group when I tried my hand at the "city ruled by greedy merchant houses class" bit. Every merchant house had its own tower in the raised section of the Old City, and they were all connected by walkways that started about halfway up. The lower section of the Old city was a sprawling, rat infested (well, Rylkar infested) slum in the shadows of the towers and walkways, and the wealthy didn't notice because most of them never go below the levels of the walkways.

I dunno, I wasn't trying to set the world on fire, but they said they loved the way that the class system of the city was also its geographical layout. There was suffering and disease below their feet and they didn't care to know, and since their servants didn't care to bring it up and didn't have to go out without house guards, "upper" and "lower" class was a physical thing.

I didn't consider it mind-blowing world building, but I had a surprising amount of positive feedback on it, so I thought I'd try to give you a hand: Make its LE-ness part of the city itself, its geography. Make the city planning board seem like the were aiming for an evil society from the beginning.

>>34032397
Good is never defined as altruism in D&D, try again.

>>34032004

Caste system, Slave market, WORK HOUSES, DEBTOR PRISONS, CHILD LABOURERS, PUBLIC EXECUTIONS EVERYWHERE, prostitute temples that double as banks.

Of such things are LE cities made.

>>34032004
Sounds more like you are looking for Lawful Edgy than Lawful Evil
Just make every guard angry and scowl at them
Have someone cut their hands off for every minor offense of curtosy
Cut out their eyes for even seeing the poor and downtrodden
Make it so the ruler literally shits on the poor.
Make happiness illegal by pain of genital mutilation.
Also make sure there are plenty of Necromancers around "evilly" reanimating the corpses of the dead homeless, who could never get a job in life but will inexplicably now be put to work in some field that is somehow understaffed despite people always looking for jobs.

Be sure to include this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsMse0Y2Gb4

>>34032004
Lots of bureaucracy that serves no purpose but to make you a slave to the system.

You want to buy a house? Well, fill in these forms that give us all your information. By accepting this deal, you're committing yourself to the law that insists that you'll be monitored for 5 years by your neighborhood watch who will go through your house routinely so we can be sure you're not a threat to the order.

Also, if you want to get a job here, you'll need to fill in this form which will basically make you a slave to the state who will decide where and when to put you to job. You'll be paid minimum wage until you prove your worth - so until the guy in charge of you notices you. Of course, he has every right to fuck you over and deny you your pay if he's not satisfied with your work.

Another thing. You want to get some service around here, like being allowed to shop and get medical help, call the cops in case you need them? Fill in these forms. By fulfilling them, you're obliged by law to help the state by acting as a spy on your neighbors, and to testify against or for certain people when ordered to. You'll be able to buy only in the shops fitting your social status and for which you have the required clearance to do so. Same goes for medicine.

Also. You're obliged by law to follow the instructions from those in higher stations than you to the letter, which you will comply with by signing these papers. You are not to ask why they are excused from breaking the law - they are above you, and you shall not question their orders. If you want to have the same right as them, show your worth to the state.

Any breaking of law is to be reported immediately. Failure to do so will be severely punished. You are forbidden from breaking the law or questioning it. Failure to do so will be result in public execution - you will serve as an example.

You are here to serve the state. The state is all. The state's goals are your goals. The state's enemies are your enemies.

>>34032360
>>34032442
PF alignment is very nebulous on purpose, because its up to the GM to decide, ultimately.

>>34032460
>Also make sure there are plenty of Necromancers around "evilly" reanimating the corpses of the dead homeless, who could never get a job in life but will inexplicably now be put to work in some field that is somehow understaffed despite people always looking for jobs.

BRILLIANT

>>34032132
No they cant because that makes my western sensibilities SAD!
My sensibilities are SAD
Baaawwwwwwww

But in reality this anon has a good point. Just because a culture has points of view that we dont naturally link with "light and love" doesnt mean they are evil.

Hell Lawful Evil describes most big cities. New York, Chicago, Detroit, etc. Only speaking about the ones I know of but I am sure many non US cities are the same.

Having a harem of lolis.

But not just any lolis. Professional ones, that you practice meticulously good upkeep on. And a very expansive and varied wardrobe for them.

>>34032094
If they're true PCs, they would just burn down the whole nation

>>34032520
What's so Lawful Evil about New... nevermind. What's so Lawful Evil about Det... nevermind.

Ah, here we go. What's so Lawful Evil about Chicago?

>>34032004
Bioshock Infinite. Slavery/caste system doesn't hold up without the underlying institutionalized belief system. There is a clear "master race" that can do whatever it wants. Have that shit be taught in schools, mandatory public or military service, "master race" members can outright murder one of the "mud-races" in broad daylight without fear of any real repercussions. If evil has been in power for a while, have a rigid devotion towards the law and powers that be instilled from an early age, making even the average citizen unable to surmount the mental barrier of breaking the law. Public executions for trifling yet technically illegal shit are fun but, of course, those executed are always those of no importance, undesirables.

Obedience through fear is only what the first few generations have towards the rulership. After that, everyone obeys just because its all they know. That's the way things are because that's the way things are. Most have a fanatical devotion to state. There is a secret police and programs to encourage reporting (sometimes resulting in the loss of innocents). If the PCs are obviously trying to interfere with the established order then expect the vast majority of people, from noble to dock worker, to betray them whether through sense of duty to the state or for the reward.

Yeah, it's dicks but welcome to LE town.

>>34032535
Not unless they were getting paid to do it, because if there's nothing left of the nation, who's going to pay out the LOOT for the next time a dragon comes asking for virgins?

>>34032520
>Detroit
>Lawful Evil
How?

>>34032543
It's simple, they burn the nation down, take the loot, and sell it to the neighboring nation

>>34032550
I stand corrected.

As you were, gentlemen.

>>34032535
In my experience any NPC can beat the PCs by throwing enough money at them.

>>34032139
Bread and circuses, anon, bread and circuses.

>>34032545
You're right.

CE.

>>34032460
>Also make sure there are plenty of Necromancers around "evilly" reanimating the corpses of the dead homeless, who could never get a job in life but will inexplicably now be put to work in some field that is somehow understaffed despite people always looking for jobs.
Well that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You buy the reagents for animating a corpse once, if you can't be bothered to find the materiel yourself. You have to pay a worker on a regular basis, you have to put effort into protecting their weak flesh, you have to let them sleep, or eat, or do unspeakable things in the bathroom.

Why bother with all that fleshy annoyance when you could just have the elegant gleam of ivory and iron?

>Alignment debate

So
Why don't we just have characters with goals, taboos, things that they're more and less likely to do WITHOUT trying to fit them into alignment straghtjacket?

Why the fuck do we treat alignments as OBJECTIVE when even people who play the game can't agree on what each alignment means? You cannot get more subjective than that.

>in b4 but alignment gives mechanical stuff!
And that stuff is stupid.

>>34032543
>>34032535
I don't see PCs very frequently killing innocents, unless like, its level 1 in AD&D and you can die in one hit and you encounter an armed group of orc warriors and have surprise, and your choices are pretty much "surprise-gank them" or "let them talk, and probably get one shotted." Even then, they were pretty shaken by it.

>>34032539
>Bioshock Infiinte
Yeah, labor with no safety net and massive competition for scarce jobs causing low wages because some industrialist keeps importing prisoners by the shipload is a bad thing. But those rebels kinda shot themselves in the foot when they killed ALL the scientists, everyone who could read and anyone wearing glasses in the flying city supported by quantum entanglement systems.

>>34032522
Dare you enter my magical realm?

>>34032545

You should look into how property is taxed in Detroit. Also you should look at how the Detroit area has expanded as the population (and thus, tax base) has shrunk.

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>>34032139
Doesn't have to be good, uncursed, non-enslaving food and entertainment, though, right?

>>34032202
Those sewers have seen some shit, they've got the dirt on everyone.

>>34032571
Because its fun and thought provoking. Also, RL doesn't have objective morality, or more likely, if it does, people differ on it.

similarly, people also can differ on it IC.

However, evil empires are a hell of a lot of fun.

Few of these arguments, however, are on the basis of what a given book says, and more inconsistencies between books, or anon spewing outright lies (like good = altruism).

Continued from >>34032497

Don't focus on the internal workings of the state. Your job is to do your work and do it right - those above you will do their job as well and the state will work like a well-oiled machine.

It is only natural that those in charge of you will be better off than you - the system is made by them for them, of course, They know what's best and how the law works. When you're in their position, you can make your own rules for the ones bellow you while following the rules of the ones above you.

You are to follow the instructions of your superiors. They are your leaders, and the people you should strive to be. They succeeded for the state, and the state is stronger for them. Conform to their rules, and be a part of the machine.

Of all of them, the Great Leader is your God. He is the one you will worship as your master. Those bellow him are slightly less worth of your worship - but you will respect their authority. Failure to do so will result in a public execution.

Focus your attention to fulfilling your appointed task, but don't fail to spot subversive elements in your midst. Outsiders are not to be trusted and are to be monitored, their activities reported immediately to your superiors. They are envious of our strength in unity and our focus on the goal, and they want to bring us down from the inside. Treat every outsider with suspicion and paranoia.

The outside forces deserve to be conquered simply so they can learn from our enlightened ways. We are in the right, our systems are effective and better than theirs. Our culture is older and better than theirs. Our people are smarter and better than theirs. They will be made to serve to our superiority, or they will be destroyed.

>>34032598
Isn't the current mayor and half the city council of Detroit currently in jail?

>>34032004
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai

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>>34032004

Is it just me, or is Spike Spiegel moderating this slave auction?

>>34032165
>It's everyone's duty to prevent everyone else in their group from committing any crimes, or to report them if they do.

How is that evil, that is exactly how it worked in real Medieval England. People were responsible for reporting crimes committed by other members of the group they were part of and could be called up by the sheriff for law enforcement purposes.

>>34032274
Let's not pretend that the DMV isn't evil.

>>34032633
Lawful Evil, when done right, is Lawful and Evil.

Not just Evil, and Lawful Because They Happen To Hold Power.

Detroit would of course be the ideal of Chaotic Evil in power.

>>34032652

It's not. It's boring, and borderline cruel, but it's not evil. And I go to a DMV in Harlem.

>>34032608
>Alignments
>Fun and thought provoking
Int's only thought provoking in "okay, what does this inconsistent clusterfuck mean".
There are a lot of games that don't have alignments and characters don't suddenly become cardboard cutouts if they can't be described with two words on character sheet.

Also
>Implying you cannot have evil empire if it doesn't have EEEEEVIL in descriptor

Are you all people forgetting Pyongyang in best Korea? New York or Detroit can be LN at best.

Without getting into dumbass debates like this thread seems to be doing, this isn't especially hard.

Have people live normal lives, but have punishments for legal infractions be very harsh, very cruel, or both.
Have many such possible punishments written down, or if not many then smaller numbers of law infractions that are very easy to commit.
Have the governmental authority be inflexible and impossible for people to influence externally without revolution; the key is control.
An organized and funded police force which has broad, sweeping legal authorities that would be considered highly invasive.
If there is a religious compliment to the nation, the church must either be A: aligned with the government and complicit in it's activities or B: set against by necessity, as tyrannical governments don't like power blocks in their country outside of their direct control or influence and a religious authority is definitely one.
If the government is a meritocratic or elected system, make it hard to move up without engaging in vicious backroom skulduggery or other underhanded political methods.
If it's an autocratic government make the leader either all-powerful legally or the head of an aristocratic regime where plotting and scheming is a matter of course; tyrants rarely relinquish power without someone killing them first.
A secret police force is always a good option, to maintain such factions in line, as the leader usually holds direct authority over them.
Crime may not be common, but it WILL be violent; crime can happen in peaceful, moderated ways when there's a legal system that gives them some wiggle room once caught, but when penalties for everything are extremely harsh conversely criminals will become incredibly desperate, thus far more willing to break the law in violent ways to ensure their survival.
If media is widespread, have a climate of fear permeate it, pointing at enemies both within and without of the state as a reason they have to stay united.

>>34032696
People can't resist discussing "what does that even mean." They have fun, and it makes them think. Guaranteed replies. It may not be highbrow enough for you.

>There are a lot of games that don't have alignments and characters don't suddenly become cardboard cutouts if they can't be described with two words on character sheet.

And? Just because something is fun and thought provoking doesn't mean something needs it to be those things.

>Implying you cannot have evil empire if it doesn't have EEEEEVIL in descriptor

Strawman mode: Engage!

Instead of trying to misrepresent the other person's position its probably better that you actually respond to them.

>>34032703
Keep in mind, "evil" doesn't mean "MAXIMALLY EVIL."

>>34032460

That's Lawfully Hilarious.

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>>34032306

>>34032696
When playing something like 3.5, I RP like the alignment I choose is some idealised morality and RP moral choice stuff as the character struggling or striving to live up to that ideal.

Picture a CE orc barbarian, coming home to his orc wife and son "How was the raiding, sweetie?", "I dunno Karen, i really tried today, but I'm just not sure i can be as chaotic as punchmaster bloodfist. I saw this kid playing dead under his dad's corpse and just left him there.", "its ok, sweetie, you can kill him when he grows up and comes looking for vengence, it'll be way more poetic and evil then, right? You did great", "....Thanks Karen. Its time like this that I remember why I kidnapped you from your human father for daring to try to raise livestock near my cousin's hut."

>>34032454
>work houses
>evil

By what measure? They were created to prevent children starving to death. Also for much of history if your kids did not help out with the farm work you would all starve to death. Having the death penalty for some crimes is not evil either.

>>34032734
Eh, i said that wrong, sorry. I meant that you can have perfectly evil empire in a setting with no alignments.

I think i'm just tired of alignment debates. They aren't even fun anymore, it's just two groups of people slinging same tired arguments at each other endlessly. It's not even THOUGHT provoking, it's just mechanical at this point.

>>34032454

>Neutral village
>All the laborers are children

Guess which setting I'm referring to.

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>>34032763

Interesting article but I have to...

>starting with six million unemployed

Next campaign I'm going to have a necromancer refer to dead people as "unemployed"

>>34032782
Stuff like this works well as a parody, but that's what literally every single D&D "parody" does, does again, does some more, does with different sauce, does as a parody to the parody, etc. etc.

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>>34032570
Now you understand, brother.

>>34032847
Well, I was going to explain that RPing a paladin as someone who strives, but does not always succeed, to live up to the concepts of law and goodness is way more interesting than "PURGE AND SMITE", but then I didn't bother cos i realised he wasn't going to read it anyway.

>>34032720
Depending on the leader, have one of two things be common; if he be the egotistical type, have lots of art of him and things about him pervading the culture. Egomaniacs love to make people make art featuring themselves, it's something they all seem to share in common for whatever reason.
The other thing is the leader who believes he's doing "only what's necessary", in which case forgo the statues and go with cold authoritarian austerity in terms of design: the man in charge doesn't see this as a privilege but as a duty, and though it be a cruel one he does it because he feels that he MUST do it, a duty which he might not enjoy much.
Decide if the LE government is more militaristic or aristocratic or what; you need SOME method of universal control over the populace to maintain a culture like that, and the most reliable methods are potent aristocracy who is incredibly reluctant to relinquish any power or privileges, or a military-themes government.
In an aristocratic system removal of the leader generally doesn't help much; the system is built to perpetuate itself and the extra privileges and power afforded to the aristocrats is enough for SOMEONE to want to step in and take power once the leader is gone.
In a military regime the hierarchy is often so strict that it falls apart upon the leader's death; in a normal military someone on the government above the head military official assigns someone to the position, but when they're the same person it's left to his underlings, which means if not everyone can decide who's in charge next you have several people both willing AND able to fight for the position, which generally leads to collapse in a general sense.

>>34032004
Kings landing

>>34032246

It also is a great chance to have an evil bard placating the masses. and the set peice of having a party fight a circus is too much to pass up.

>>34032004

DValron's Tsala from AH.com could have a LE city.

Canabalism, rape as punishment for women*, slave markets where prisoners are marked in some indelable way (tatoos on the face?) and sold if they are not able to pay their debts, debitor prision wiht the same, torture as as common sexual activity, lots of bondage, women walking around with questionable clothing that still does the job of clothing. (So for tops, they still provide resistance to the SAG monster.)

Slaves can be forced to endure whatever their master demands. Little girls** can be utilized legally via loophole.

It's not enough to think of 'what could be legal yet is evil'. You can also allow for really nasty things if you invoke the god of loopholes.


*Much like medieval witch burnings, it's a faily event. Bring the young boy and let him bust a nut on the condommend's face. Remember if she's not going to be killed to wear a mask!

**I'm not a complete moster, if you want to insunate 'Child used in unnaural ways' than keep a limit of thirteen (in the US) or 12 if in a rea with a AoC of 15. If AoC is 13, only go a couple years lower. You shouldn't completely squick out players. Also.. don't do this if your players are liberal whiny bitches who cling to the modern rules, or conservatives/religion who may take offense to the implication.

>>34032790
>I meant that you can have perfectly evil empire in a setting with no alignments.

And you can. Never was it stated otherwise.

On the other hand, in terms of worldbuilding, I'm using alignments + a lot of stuff that interacts with alignments to actually flesh out certain elements of the game world, which I actually find entertaining.

For example, even though a lot of people dislike alignments, its not hard to imagine Silent Hill and other horror locations as tainted by some sort of metaphysical evil chaos (or whatever) -- and a lot of the people who dislike alignments still have horror campaigns with incredibly harmful and corrupting otherworldly forces.

A guy in my gaming group HATES objective good/evil. What campaign did he run? One where a Silent Hill type anomaly blankets the world (blocked by any enclosed space) and floods the world with horrifying mutants, or turns people into horrifying mutants, who behave in a cruel and violent fashion. To me, that seems close enough to a Chaotic Evil force, even though one could disagree.

>They aren't even fun anymore

Okay, so don't participate in them. Easy.

>It's not even THOUGHT provoking

Keep in mind you're strictly wrong, though.

>>34032916
I always wondered what an LE Bard ruler would be like.
Just a highly talented political animal with an alarmingly broad array of knowledge skills and talents, making him annoyingly good at keeping his position since he knows something about EVERYTHING?

>>34032666
That doesn't make the DMV not evil, that makes you a paladin. Maybe a low level one, but a paladin nonetheless. Carry the light into the den of evil!

>>34032328
Hey some characters are LG! They just all get killed is all.

>>34032923
>women walking around with questionable clothing that still does the job of clothing.

Is this part of the evilness or just an amusing cultural custom?

>>34032199

So.. like the modern US?

The Rich get away with shit and the Poor get slammed down.

Granted, it's a Lawful city. The Rich can pay for Lawyers to find loopholes that can save their ass. The Poor get stupid public defenders who ain't pay enough for this shit and unless it's a Nat 20 on a legal check, don't.

>>34032535
This.

I've had this happen before, actually. The PCs got really riled up by how nasty the nation was and how it had escaped all punishment for the bad shit it had done, and they just sort of made it their secondary goal to fuck it over. It took them a while but eventually they got the big dragon everyone was afraid of diverted into it.

>>34032537
Gentleman Marcone

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>>34032982
That's not being entirely fair.

>>34032984
>killing thousands of innocent people by getting a dragon to attack a country

Sounds like your PC's are the bad guys in a campaign for actual good guys.

>>34033018
Guy certainly fits a lot of the Lawful Evil traits.
Of course he's also almost certainly never going to directly become a villain either.

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>>34032429
no they dont, read chaotic evil

this is litterally anie rando

>>34032935
Metaphysical evil/horror isn't really the kind of objective evil i'm talking about. Objective alignment when applied to weird otherworldly forces is okay. My pet peeve is when objective good/evil gets applied to stuff that isn't LITERALLY made of good/evil.

>>34033046
Yeah I know, it was kinda excessive. Two of the PCs had stake in it, I guess, being part of the 'untermensch' of that nation. For them it was a personal thing, especially considering that they went their to find their family and just found old bones.

I don't think they ever intended it to be justice exactly, just very, very grand vengeance. 'From hell's heart I etc etc etc'.

It was kinda fun DMing for Goliath Magneto.

>>34033018
>Marcone
>Lawful Evil
Please, Lawful Neutral at worst.
Lawful Good at best.

>>34033082
Marcone is a villain clever enough to not set himself up as something that needs to be torn down. Not only is he essential to keeping the (inevitable) crime of the city organised via strict rules (e.g. he refuses to allow or condone the harming of children), he's got enough supernatural connections now that trying to take him apart would just get you hit with a bunch of supernatural heavyweights.

He's very clever.

>>34033046
Sounds like they had FUN

Alignments are for 'tards anyway.

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>>34032429
>>34033096
Think it's time to whip this out again.

>>34033101
To put it otherwise, it's okay for something to be 100% everything-hating-evil, as long as it's not supposed to be a person.

>>34033096
Nope. Rand wanted a nightwatchman state to keep violent criminals from seizing other people's property. Objectivism and all similar doctrines fit solidly under 1e chaotic good. >>34032429

Freetip: just because you disagree politically with someone doesn't make them The Devil.

>>34033101
>>34033139

Okay. Evil humanoid types are almost never anything like that, though -- unless they're, of course, thralls to otherworldly horror.

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>>34033136
Nice.

>>34033136
>Authoritarian left
>Lawful good

Bitch please

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>>34033246

Although its satire, there are people who really think that.

>>34032630
I think it's time to blow this city, get everybody and the slaves together.

Okay, three, two, one, LET'S JAM.

>>34033027
Is that in absolute amounts, or % of GDP?

>>34033395
Absolute, the only unbiased way to judge.

>>34032156
underrated post

>>34032090

>mfw we live in an LE society

>>34034711

I think that was the idea.


Robert A. Heinlein
“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

>>34032581
It was a critique of both exploitative industrialism supported by bogus ideologies and communistic revolutions and anarchists that want to tear it all down regardless of common sense just because fuck the po-leece. The former was just more pronounced

>>34033246
>>34033271
there is literally nothing wrong in the chart.
Left protects the rights of everyone, Right protects the rights of a few.

at least in theory, of course

>>34032823

You are litterally an Untermensch with no reading skill or comprehension.

>>34032520
>detroit
>lawful
Only in the sense that it's run by Democrats who are micromanaging pricks. In every other way it's Chaotic.

>>34032515
>Dem zombies be taking our jobs!

>>34033409
You mean the most biased way to judge. Giving money away is easy when you have loads of it.

>>34040739
Please, no judge would do bribes.
This message was sponsored by the Italian Friendship Brigade

>>34033409
Are percentages some sort of blasphemous sorcery now?

>>34043504
They weren't already?

>>34032004
The courts are controlled by Wolfram and Hart from Angel.

Oppressive law system, corruption, using city funds for unapproved things, etc.

How about a reeeaaally cutthroat and individualistic competitive meritocracy. One with a very strict draconian legal system, but which has convoluted loopholes for those with the gumption to pursue them. Of course, if you take that route to get ahead, you're going to have nearly everyone else scrutinizing you for a chance to have you legally executed.

The guy in charge set the whole thing up because he wanted to be a dominator of dominators.

>captcha: companies ricegar

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I know it's not strictly /tg/, but would you consider Vault City (fro, Fallout 2) as LE? I mean, it has slaves (altough it doesn't trade them) and a near-adamant caste system. Yet, they do give you a hand in the game. You have to earn their favor, but they keep their word. So, I can't decide if they're evil. What do you think?

>>34045937
>>34046323

I'm pretty sure we're in a LE place following those definitions. The Dark Eldar trade the slaves, while the Tau continue their caste system. How powerful you are equates to how strong you are. Strength is rewarded, weakness gets forgotten. I'm glad we're strong.

>>34045937
CN probably.

>>34032666
NK is Incompetent Evil

>>34049091
>NK is ran by a That Guy lolevil PC

>>34050375
Have you been reading the news? He is a That Guy.
>every dude must have the same haircut as me
>my face must be in every room and facing the front door
>your daughters must pay tribute to me once a year
>You will curse our enemies every evening
>everyone must listen to the 3 o'clock propaganda. No exceptions.

>>34032784
Because they made people do hard labour AND more importantly, didn't feed them enough to do that labour. Also most of the money was skimmed by the operators, and the way the people were treated cause depression and suicides.

>>34032923
The fuck am I reading?
Is this an add for your magic realm?

A company town. Specifically Celebration, Florida, except operated entirely by unpaid child labor or some shit.

EVERY ANCIENT CIVILIZATION EVER EXCEPT MAYBE PERSIA.

>>34032348
I'd say neutral on the good evil spectrum would be people who aren't altruistic, but won't actively go out of their way to help others. People who mind their own business and take the course of action which gets them in the least amount of trouble.

Neutral people are the "Good men [who] do nothing" and allow evil to flourish.

>>34032923
That's a sexual fantasy not LE.

Also,
>Kinky outfits means evil.
Pls stop.

>>34033027
Charity is one of those loopholes mentioned. If the rich really cared about the poor they could help them a lot more effectively than just throwing money at them. Charity just happens to be a convenient tax dodge that has the added benefit of making you look good, without actually doing anything to change the status quo which puts you at the top.

>>34032004
Israel.

>>34033409
Bull.
Shit.

>>34032004
Cities don't have alignments. The people in positions of power may want everything to be lawful for some evil purpose, but any cluster of people large enough to form a city is going to trend toward Neutral Fuggedaboudid

>>34032090
So... Menzoberranzan?

>>34032923
>DValron's Tsala
Link?

>>34032004
Buisness

a city that has a system set up where its inhabitents are heavily taxed for living conditions and basically have no choice for employment but to work for 'the company' (ie: gold mine, salt mine, manufactureing goods)

the fat cats at the top have all the wealth and the peons at the bottom do all the work

think like the chinese building the railroadsm technically not slavery, but slavery

or you know, modern society

Poke for awesomeness.

>>34045644
And then Angel comes around and fucks everything up as he always does.
Nice job breaking it, hero.