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>>48221537
You whistle, harshly, for your shadow; she opens the new door into the Broken Jaw for you, and cringes as you pass. Your ears flatten against your head in irritation.

<You're being ridiculous> Robert says quietly, into your mind.

"Shut up, ghost," you snap. You pause, to strap ice skates to your boots, and set off for the hill in the distance where Cannot Hold awaits you.

<That's childish and you know it.>

"I said /shut up/."

<What is it you're actually angry about? That your sister has entrusted you with this? That it's being done at all? Me? Did that swain of your spurn you?>

"No," you snarl. "He has not."

<Then what?>

> What?

>>48221557
>slap on your proton pack and PURGE THE GHOST

>>48221557
I'm on my period!


Not but seriously I have no clue what's pissing her off.

>>48221608
Probably just needs someone to pat her head, sit her in their lap, brush her hair, and ask about her day.

>>48221557
I'm mad because we're turning probably one of the coolest boss fights into essentially a cutscene kill.

>>48221557
Might be about how anticlimactic we're being about offing the Daughter. Not being done the Right way, etc.

Might be the feeling that River was passed an unsavory job. Janitor work.

Might be the fact that other than this job, River doesn't HAVE much to do.

Could be a lot of things.

>>48221608
>>48221620
>>48221642
>>48221646
It's not a guessing game, anon(s). It's a moment where you have the opportunity to define River. She's undergone some major milestones in her life, some momentous events, both for good and ill, and if you recall from the Warehouse, who she /was/ is weighing heavily on her mind.

So you tell me: what is it River's upset about?

>>48221642
The Daughter wouldn't be a fight, it'd be a slaughter, and not for us. She's damn near a demigod and Bri is pretty fucked up.

>>48221674
>Ever since this ghost stapled himself to my brain, I haven't been able to do my secret midnight ballet practise!

>>48221642
>>48221674

Did I fucking stutter?

>>48221674
and here we go full circle back to the characterization issue. First Bri, now River.

Nobody really wants to be the one to definitively decide. Not us, not you. Roll it.

>>48221705
I'm happy to decide, if anon can't, or won't. But I figured folks might like the chance. And I'll confess to a certain curiosity.

>>48221674
I'm angry because I'm not getting the D right now.

>>48221557
>Because Bri keeps telling me we're fucking family and then foisting me off on trash-tier jobs that nobody else wants to do. She calls herself my big sister, gives me goddamn shit for actual guidance. She calls it trusting me to make decisions. Decisions she knows I do NOT have the capacity to make, but would rather not have on her own conscience. I shouldn't be SHOCKED, considering how my LAST family worked out, but whoops, look at me, I accidentally forgot to always expect the worst always.

>>48221557
>>48221760
Second

>>48221760
wew lad


Probably not a great time for a question like this vox, not at the start of a thread and not at 4 or 3 in the morning.

>>48221808
>the one vote that actually looks like it actually could be something said in-character and not a joke

>that's the one you single out as shitposting

>>48221760
biiiiit on the edgy side.

I mean, the whole mary sue thing was a bit of a problem, but this is going to the entire other extreme.

>>48221814
I'm not singling it out as shitposting...

I just said wew lad

if it was shitposting i'd say this is bait or something.

>>48221808
Look man, it's been bugging me forever. Bri is SHIT family. What she claims is trusting people with responsibility reads to me as "I don't want to have to be responsible for that myself", and fucking NOBODY is calling her out on it.

>>48221874
While I'd like to say that Bri is a mary fucking sue, what exact moments are you talking about with foisting responsibility on others?

>>48221874
>>48221916
I am also curious about this. This's the first time I've heard this particular bit of feedback.

>>48221874
She comes across to me as more just thoughtless. She's always had to make tough decisions fast, and so when she drops her troops behind enemy lines, as it were, she doesn't think she has to tell them what decisions to make. She assumes everyone is like herself, no matter how many times that assumption is proven wrong.

>>48221976
>how many times that assumption is proven wrong.


What?

Didn't Nate and Amy do fine on their own?

What examples are you thinking of?

I'm honestly debating leaving this open overnight just to see how the discussion on the matter develops. Though >>48221808 may be right; I likely timed this poorly as well.

Decisions, decisions...

>>48221931
>This's the first time I've heard this particular bit of feedback.
not really, it's just the same feedback run through maximum cynicism.

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>>48222033

>hmmm I don't like the player input I am getting

>I'll wait until I get the player input I do want


Yeah, that certainly isn't blatant railroading.

>>48221976
Literally what anon

>>48221557
>>48221760
>Probably rewrite it less teen angsty, but seconded

>>48222044
> Fascinated with the topic at hand and don't want to cut discussion on it short
> Railroading

Welcome back, my old friend. The salt shaker's at your usual table.

>>48222044
oh it's this fucking guy again.

just leave it till the morning vox.

>>48222044
Oh please. You wouldn't know what railroading was if you were in a Gygax adventure.

>>48221760
I feel like this is completely off base, if Bri was healthy she'd be the first person to volunteer for this job. The only times she's delegated tasks has been when she wouldn't be good for the roll or she's been physically unable to perform that task.

You're projecting something here anon, I'm not sure what you're so mad about, but most of what you're presenting here is fallacious bullshit.

>>48222072
*role

>>48222086
No, Bri didn't go because she used up all her nat 20s the day before

>>48222091
...What?

>>48222053
You legitimately typed

>I may have timed this poorly

you got a legitimate, in-character (sorta) write-in and its been seconded twice now.

Just give set times for votes. Make them 5 hours or variable but at least say in advance how long you're giving a vote.

Or just veto that anon's write-in because you think it's out of character.

>>48221993
Not the angry anon but maybe River is feeling insecure of her place in the family and where she stands ? Is she the go to for murder or unsavoury business and then left alone until the next hit ? Not being given advice of learning the darker aspects of necromancer magic and told to follow her own will ? Being left alone to clean up the dead in the cemetery for ages with only Robert for company while Bri runs around with her friends doing the more important work of cleaning up the Dungeon ?

It is only recently that River is doing anything that is truly important like helping Nathan in the clearing of teleport circles and now River is tasked with an assassination of the Daughter. Maybe she feels that her fate will always be cleaning up after others and not truly part of the la Croix family.

>>48222097
>not good for the roll

>>48222106
That's a legitimate complaint, not whatever the hell the other dude was trying to sell.

>"I'm....kind of at a loss, really. I mean, I knew wat she was asking me to do would be hard....but this is really out of my league. I was a mercenary, not an assassin, and this feels like an assassination."

>"When she said it would be hard, I didn't think she'd have me doing thing like THIS....have you ever done anythign like this? Sure, you summoned demons, but this is different."

>>48222115
Oh dice, roll, nat 20

got it

wasn't funny

>>48222106
but that's not the same as the vote up there?

>>48222129
Glad I don't rely on you for my self-esteem

>>48222100
I won't, 'cause I don't. And I can't/won't give set times for votes because quite frankly I barely have control over my life and, also, I'm a forgetful piece of shit.

I'll update before I hit bed, gonna snag some water to drink first.

>>48222106
This does sound similar to the current frontrunner, as >>48222137 suggests. Will likely fold it in if said frontrunner remains so.

>>48222033
Yeah, best to leave it for the bigger portion of the audience to see and input.

>>48222159
The >>48222106 seems flat out better than the extensively OOC-salty previous runner.

They're on the similar vein, but the later is better fit with characterisation.

Rolled 3 (1d3)

>>48222159
fine, if it's going to be like that.

>>48221646
>whichever the die falls on this post

Called. Writing.

>>48221557
>> What?

With how we see ourselves in the people Bri keeps saving.

With how blind we were to evil before.

With how even though we've tried to change, we seem only to be good enough to kill, and unable to redeem.

With how Robert treats being a Prick like a game, when we need every one of his tricks and hints. This is actually bigger than just us becoming a full LaCroix, and the fear that we can't handle it alone, and not knowing if even sacrificing ourselves is going to be enough, and just being afraid of losing again right after we finally starting having something to lose again and being pissed at ourselves for being afraid of that.

And knowing that fear is normal, and stupid, and still not being able to stop being afraid of it.

>>48222263
What concerns me is how similar this is to Bri herself. And if it's similar to her, the only way for it to be different is if it ends very, very badly for River.

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>>48221557
"Now? You want to do this now?" you demand.

<Is there a better time to do it, before you have to contend with a nephilim for your very life?>

You stop up short, throwing up a spray of ice, and fling a single, tarnished shard of silver into the ice, offering up a sliver of your life into it. Learning this trick without Robert noticing had been a hell of a thing; you'd been hoping to save it for later, when it was time to banish him.

But no, he wants to do this now.

The ghost screams in surprise and pain as he's pulled between two anchors - the one you just threw, and yourself. The tugging force makes him manifest, as a flickering apparition.

You tear a match from your pocket, thumb it, and light a cigarette with a soft snarl. "Fine," you tell him. "We'll do this now. Is this it? Is this my future?"

"No one told you that being part of this family would be easy," Robert says.

"No one told me I'd be doing my old job with new weapons," you snap back. "Who am I? Huh? Who am I to you? To Bri? Bri says I've got an important job to do, so she leaves me to clean up the Lichyard, with nothing but you for company. I like Split well enough but I'm a stranger there. They don't really know me. They smile and wave and leave me be, and that's no way to live."

"You mean to tell me you're feeling /unloved/?" the old ghost scoffs.

"/Don't you even start you soulless piece of shit/," you yell, without quite meaning to; your voice echoes through the vast tomb that is the Broken Jaw, returning to you across the ice. "You, of /all people/? Bri's got a kind word, a sympathetic shoulder. Nate, Amy, they've been there sometimes to make sure I'm okay, but /you/? Day in, day out, nothing but insults and /mockery/. Nothing I've /ever done/ is good enough for you. I've half a mind to drive Sleep through you and be quits with it."

"You were sentenced -"

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>>48222377
"I was sentenced to /live/," you interrupt. "You know what a sentence is? It's a /punishment/. I was sentenced to live, for the rest of my life, with what /you/ taught me. With the things that make me wake up in cold sweats. Does that make you happy? What is it you're turning me into?"

"River," the old ghost murmurs, sorrow coloring his voice. "Why haven't you said anything before?"

"What am I supposed to say? I want to /help/. I want to /do good/. I want...I want to have a life, and a family, and I want to live up to this name I've been given but I only get trusted with important things when Bri's not there. And I love her, I really do, but is that it? Is that my life? Understudy to Brianna la Croix, professional holder of doors otherwise? That's not good enough."

"I thought she left you to your own devices because she trusts you," Robert says quietly. "I learned on my own."

"Well maybe I don't want that! Maybe there's a reason we started sticking together as a fucking family. AND IF YOU REMEMBER, YOU TURNED INTO A GOD DAMN PULP FICTION VILLAIN AND MURDERED A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT CHUNK OF A FUCKING CONTINENT!"

Your mentor flinches, as if struck, and the fury drains away, slowly. You sink to your knees and let the cigarette drop from your lips, to burn uselessly on the ice.

"Who am I?" you ask helplessly. "If I touch that little box in the family shrine, will it say I'm a la Croix? Or just the pet you keep around to clean up after the purebloods?"

"Never," the old man says firmly. "River, you have been the best student I have ever trained. What I've put you through would have killed most of the others and driven the rest to madness."

"I want you to examine that sentence and tell me where the morally wrong part is," you mutter in a hollow voice.

"What is it you want?" Robert asks. "You can talk to Brianna about your...your duties. What can /I/ do for you?"

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>>48222437
> "Go away."
> "...Just stay quiet for now. I need time to think."
> "I want to learn something else."
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
> "I don't know what I want."
> Write-in?

And now, I sleep. Votes remain open.

Questions, comments, discussion, feedback, and criticisms remain welcome and appreciated.

Thank you all for reading and participating!

>>48222437
>> Write-in?

I want you to help me escape being in Brianna's shadow.

And I'm not talking about lesbian sex with Kat.

>>48222437
>"River, you have been the best student I have ever trained. What I've put you through would have killed most of the others and driven the rest to madness."
>"I want you to examine that sentence and tell me where the morally wrong part is,"
I laughed

> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
beyond that
> "I don't know what I want."

>>48222463
>criticisms

I'm just sort of upset with how you took the winning vote (really, the only vote that was semi-serious) and just sort of snubbed the spirit of it. I get that, yeah, it was written in the most edgy way possible and was hoping your writing skills would fix it up or tone it down a little, but you barely considered the spirit of it.

There was a lot of anger towards Bri in that write-in that you shifted almost completely onto Robert.

The easily hateable ghost, dickish mentor guy which neither >>48221760 nor >>48222106 mention any major ire towards at all.

And it's not just that it's "railroading" or disrespecting "player input"

It's that I don't even think you know you're doing it.

You took votes that managed to say nothing but "I'm at the very least very upset with Bri" and managed to work in two compliments for her in River's rant of anger.

Bri is a Mary Sue. And it is having a noticeable effect on how you interpret shit.

My recommendation, yeah, wait until a majority of the playerbase is here so we can be almost guaranteed to choose the safe option so this at least isn't so obvious that I feel I must comment upon it.

This isn't even salt that I have anymore. It's like wet droopy sand.

IMO her problem is that she was saved and sentenced to redeem herself, she got burdened with a ghost asshole and then learned demonology, balefire and ask kinda of nasty kill-shit without so much as a "is that a good idea?", like no one really cares about her or what she does. She's still a killer and everyone wants her to be one. Why aren't they bothered? She's unable to help herself become a different or better person but who cares? No one, she's convenient as is.
Angry because she knows she shouldn't be left to her own devices, her mercenary and murderous self won't go away without outside support. She wants to change but the helplessness of knowing she is incapable must be soul crushing.

And vox, don't leave these kind of important decisions up to two or three guys at the start of a thread. Leave the votes up while you sleep or half a daysi that both the morning and night crews can chime in. The Europeans are at work right now, I'm posting on my lunch break ATM.

>>48222449
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"

>>48222449
>you have been the best student I have ever trained

>great, more people who want me for what I can do instead of who I am.

>>48222449
"I want help. Not help in learning a thousand new ways to horribly kill people. Help learning to be a decent person, which is something that you have so far proven completely unwilling to do. 'Demonology? Seems legit. Balefire? Oh sure, teach her that too. But gods forbid we try to instill some virtue or character in the person we're giving all this horrifyingly lethal instruction. Setting a positive example? Nah, fuck that.'

I want to be a good person, I want to not waste this second chance. But if I can't have that, then I'll settle for at least not ending up like you."

>>48222449
>>48222449
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
>Write in
>Sound out to Bri about our insecurities, this is a talk that is a long time coming and we just did not have the courage to talk about it until now. After taking out the Daughter of course.

>>48222559
I'm happy he ignored most of the edge of the first one, because honestly it didn't make much in the way of sense.

The idea that Bri is putting stuff on other people because she doesn't want it on her conscience? There really isn't a whole lot from River's perspective to back that up. Putting down zombies and burying bodies in the lichyard? It's long, hard work, but it's not something that would burden a person's conscience. Going in to New Hell to stop the Traitor? Again, not exactly morally troubling. Difficult, but not on a moral level.

The fact that from her point of view she seems to mainly be for doing important stuff when Bri literally can't be there for some reason made much more sense as a reason why River would be angry. It's not that Bri asks her to do morally questionable stuff. She doesn't. It's that she's only asked to help when Bri isn't able to do something herself.

>I want to become a better person. Not a better murderer and demon bully! I was sentenced to LIVE, in my mind so that I can repent. All you do is teach me how to kill and dominate and everyone else are content to leave it at that. I want to kill the old me, the mercenary who did evil her while life. I conned my way into a life where I was in turn conned into believing that killing, raping and pillaging is alright, that it is a real way to live your life! I was ready to give up when bri found me and fucking conned me into believing that I was given a second chance! Nothing has changed, I'm still a completely rotten person and growing words every day! So gods help me what am I to do? I can't change on my own, I need someone who can actually help me with the things I need help with.

>>48222804
Bri guided River through killing a bound and helpless woman just to get a shadow for more power.

Bri a-ok'd the whole evil ghost thing without oversight and just rolled with River taking lessons about demonology from him.

Bri let River become a necromancer.

These things are certainly morally troubling. Enough so that while I wouldn't say they're inherently things that would make River mad they aren't out of character for it.

>>48222159
Happy to help sand off the edges off the front runner's post by providing rational arguments on Rivers' character.

Which is what we should all be doing, bouncing ideas off each other on characterisation no matter how offensive the source instead of focusing on the messager time and time again.

Even if River being angry seems out of the blue, it is because it has been simmering inside of her for a very long time. But all this while while she is smiling and nodding her head because she understands what Bri goes through, River does not have an outlet And Robert does not count.

She is like that friend that is in your social group that you vaguely remember and only invite to all your outings cause you hit 'send all' while writing the invitations. While you may talk to her from time to time and share a common interest, others are more engaging and often you forget to say goodbye to her after the outing.

This is what River feels constantly from the day she joins the la Croix family until now when she finally burst out as above.

I hope this gives an insight on why River suddenly got angry all of a sudden when tasked to kill the Daughter.

Let's keep the discussion going and I love your world building so far Vox !

>>48222932
Still not seeing where the "Decisions she knows I do NOT have the capacity to make, but would rather not have on her own conscience" that was the core of >>48221760 would come from. The shadow is something that Bri did herself, and that does weigh on her conscience, as shown during the fight with the Diviner. As for the necromancer and demonology bit, that was the judgment of the La Croixs in the lichyard as punishment for River's part in the Moneychanger's campaign against them. Aside from choosing to save River's life in the first place, Bri didn't have a whole lot of say in that.

>>48223170
>as shown during the fight with the Diviner

River wasn't there for that

>that was the judgment of the La Croixs in the lichyard as punishment for River's part

and that is the rationalization of someone trying to distance themselves from a decision they're responsible for so it doesn't burden their conscience

>Bri didn't have a whole lot of say in that.

Similar to above but shirking responsibility even harder

>>48222932
>>48222932
I would like to point out that all the points that you have stated are correct to my knowledge.

I would also like to point out that it is not only Bri that have made those decisions. Yes I am talking about us, the players, the choice makers, the hidden influence behind Bri's every choice and actions.

It is us who decided to throw River into the Lichyard to hunt zombies, it is us that made River choose of her own will to make a Shadow, to make herself stronger. It is us who decided that Robert is the best teacher to guide River down the path of necromancy. It is us who decided that River is too green to follow us into the Dungeon as our fourth team member.

Never for a moment forget that the choices we made as Bri is the choice of Bri alone. It is the collective will of the players which path the story goes and while it is a long and winding road, it has come down to the tipping point where River finally had enough.

On their own, the choices we made back then seemed innocent, even correct at the time, but put it all together and what have we ?

We have neglected River time and again while throwning her some scraps of family time to keep her satisfied, not knowing that the care we are giving her is not even close the the time we spent with Nate and Amy.

With hindsight it seems obvious River will be angry at how Bri seems to be treating her.

I am curious though, Vox, is River character arc how you foresee it heading down due to our choices or will it change significantly at certain choice paths ?

Brianna La Croix.

Brianna of the Cross.

Could there be more blatant symbolism wrapped up in that image.

Vox sometimes I think you're a genius. The Jesus imagery is perfect.

Brianna of the cross.

Brianna on the cross.

Brianna the martyr, the crucified.

The woman who dies, kills and commits dirty acts that "need doing" for the sins of the community.

La Croix itself is a shield. A delusion. It is a buffer between any true moral reflections on the evil they've wrought, intentional or accidental. They must make decisions and interfere.

Bri wants to reflect. She feels guilty. She knows there is a conscience in there that regrets its acts and no last fucking name excuses her sins.

But ultimately she believes she is La Croix. Of the cross. A name that carries such significance.

She must suffer for you by making decisions for you. They may cause you suffering, kill those close to you or be gross abuses of power but she'll never allow herself to truly take the fall or realize her /personal/ folly.

No the mere attachment of that name means she is appointed to act. She never had a choice, did she? She's La Croix!

It is a self-prescribed license to kill, choose, act. A family of eternal martyrs.

La Croix is a heavy cross to bear.

The more you blame her, the more she realizes she is doing the right thing. For someone must be hated and cursed for doing the dark, necessary things that keep our society running and surely she knows that is her role.

La Croix. Filled with the wisdom they've accrued over the ages. Ages filled with tyrants, madmen, death, destruction and injustice. It's all they've ever known. How would they conceive of an alternative where no dark deed needs doing?

And truly, why would they conceive of an alternative where there is no dark deed that needs doing? What would their purpose be then?

They are the La Croix.

Of the cross.

Imagine a world without crosses to bear.

Imagine a world without La Croix.

Break the cross!

>>48223606
I think you have had both too many and too few drinks.

>>48223636
Yeah, I'm going to have to back you up on that.

>>48223606
Anon, get off /tg/ and go back to bed until the fever breaks.

>>48223824
I'M BURNING I'M BURNING I'M BURNING

I'M BURNING FOR YOU

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>>48221537
Vox you crazy bastard, I love you.

>>48222044
The stick up your ass is closer to railroading then what Vox is doing you fucking muppet.

>>48223267
> and that is the rationalization of someone trying to distance themselves from a decision they're responsible for so it doesn't burden their conscience

And that is the rationalization of someone who is trying to defend a garbage view that isn't actually based on anything. Your cries of "railroading" and "mary sue" were about as convincing.

You've made it very clear that you don't like Bri, and you think that she's an awful character. That doesn't mean that all the other characters are required to share your view.

>>48222619
Seconding this, and this>>48222653 also this>>48222835

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>>48224204
Batman approves.

>>48223606
>>48223636
>>48223824
Still it has been a while since anyone gave Bri shit for all the self destructive shit she does. At some point soon we need someone to punch her lights out and tell her to stop hiding behind her name to avoid personal responsibility.

>>48224564
it's been a while IRL, but inquest, she hasn't done a whole lot to deserve it.

If anything, the most recent problems stem from Lora TAKING THINGS FAR TOO FAST JESUS FUCK

Bump before bed. Vox was up pretty late, huh?

>>48225141
everyone was, its the nature of things here.

Wait, I don't understand. Isn't the daughter dead? She was the one who did scrying, right?

>>48222619
thirding

>>48225607
No, that's the Diviner. The Daughter is some half-angel cult leader from further down. She was the one who "employed" Jewel before she got de-aged.

>>48225607
didn't jewel rip out an eye?

>>48225782
CHERRY grabbed both of the Daughter's eyes and kept hold of them when the Daughter threw her off.

We kept them in a jar and are going to use them and the rock in the Jaw to make the Daughter's head explode via sympathetic magic.

>>48225818

Which actually wasn't planned on by the GM.

I mean, I kind of wonder what else he was expecting us to do with a pair of angel eyeballs, but still. We avoided the railroad.

>>48225818
>>48225951
I never understood how that plot came to hatch, or how the hell it is going to work. What is sympathetic magic? We have two necromancers, I don't even remember anyone suggesting which spell to use. What kind of sympathy are we looking at, here? Is River gonna go down there and smash her bollocks on an ice anvil and make the daughter die from amplified pain or something?

>>48225997
Sympathetic magic is (near as I can tell) like hollywood voodoo dolls but with emotional manipulation as well.

The rock in the Jaw is a sympathetic enhancer, strong enough to fuck with the vampires we brought to the surface without a direct link to them, so it should be easy enough to fuck with the Daughter given we have two rather important parts of her.

>>48222449
> "I want to learn something else."
> "I want some gods-damned respect. Is that such a hard concept?"
Basically what other anons have said: River wants to learn more than being a necromancer and demonologist, and she doesn't want to be treated like a 'family pet.'

>>48226061
Hm. I hope Vox will explain it before the options are presented because it's going to suck if the few people who understands it isn't here for the vote.

>>48224268
Third. I also want to point out what >48222932 said;
>Bri guided River through killing a bound and helpless woman just to get a shadow for more power.

Something like,
>I even made a Shadow because I thought that was what was expected, no, wanted of me as a La Croix. I've killed helpless people before, but I've never done it with such a twisted purpose like stealing their death... and now it is always next to me, every time I see my own fucking shadow I can see the look on their face as I cut them!
Is this the real punishment? Offering me redemption, salvation, sugar, spice and everything nice and then burden my soul and conscience with this shit?

Maybe my interpretation of River's character is off, but I've always seen her as a lost soul since we found her. She lost her family, the life that was waiting for her and became a monster of her own choosing from peer pressure. As she herself said, she had a feeling what she was doing was wrong but she drowned it out with sex and alcohol until all her feelings were dead, just being alive because she wasn't dead yet. Enter us, "miss second chance" offering her the sweet words she wanted to, needed to hear, and then what? Token friendship, token gratitude, token appreciation. Made her our sister but barely interact with her unless we are giving her orders. Orders that drive her ever further from her own desire to just be... normal.

River is a tragic wretch and she's heading off the deep end because through all her life all she's known are companions instead of friends, never met someone who cares about the little person inside of her. Always about her skills, her potential and how useful she is.

Any thoughts on this?

>>48226438
I wouldn't say it's entirely accurate from the "real" perspective, but from hers?

It could be completely plausible.

>>48225997

Sympathetic magic is, at it's core, based around the idea of 'sympathy'. Two different things with shared traits being compelled to have a certain reaction, using that shared trait as a bridge.

Basically it runs off the idea that having a piece of something, gives you a connection to the whole.

This was the Diviner's specialty. Using bits taken from the vampires, she made them hallucinate and bring her a piece of Brianna's hair to fuck with. This resulted in a devastating mental attack, the Bri just tanked anyway.

We're going to use sympathetic magic to effectively 'kill' the eyeballs, and thus the Daughter. This should work much better because we have a larger, better preserved, and more important piece of the Daughter to work with.

God damn that was some good sleep.

Called, writing shortly.

>>48227640
You know Vox, you could probably sleep better if you cut back on the coffee.

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>>48228177

>>48224204
>who is trying to defend a garbage view that isn't actually based on anything.

this isn't some debate where I need to cite my sources to definitively and objectively prove claims.

The idea that River thinking Bri is being shitty/ foisting shit off on her to to help her own conscience only needs to be possible in character for River.

It's totally possible for someone to act irrational so saying that River would be acting out of character because she doesn't have all the perfect evidence to feel anger is just a little too robotic.

>that you don't like Bri

As a person I have a lot of problems with her. Originally as a character, I loved a lot of her flaws. I thought it made the quest interesting.

>doesn't mean that all the other characters are required to share your view

Certainly. But when the winning vote is literally "River is mad at Bri" and then Vox just snubs that vote there's a problem. If the winning vote had been "i'm mad about my ballet classes" or whatever then I wouldn't care.

>>48228202
> Certainly. But when the winning vote is literally "River is mad at Bri" and then Vox just snubs that vote there's a problem.

I feel she expressed plenty of frustration with Brianna in this, and keep in mind that this subject is not closed. River's arguing with the guy she actually has on hand right now - that doesn't mean she's /done/. Not by a long shot.

Actually writing now. Real life got me.

>>48228177
KILL THE NON BELEIVER!

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>>48222449
That feel when combining several popular options 'cause damn, they all fit.

"What do I want from you?" you ask, your voice a low whisper. "Would some gods-damned respect be too much to ask for? You say I'm the best student you've ever trained but, you know what, fuck you, I don't believe you. I break down and suddenly you find out that you put your compliments in your other robe?"

The ghost listens, silently, and you stand carefully back to your feet. It takes you a moment to find your balance on the skates.

"I want to be a /better/ person," you tell your mentor. "I didn't need better ways to kill and bully people. I was plenty good at that already. The dead of the la Croix sentenced me so I could learn what I'd done wrong. Well, now I fucking know, but no one's told me what to do /right/. I want the old me dead and buried, Robert. I want the second chance I was promised. And I know you can't be the complete bastard you come off as, because some of the stuff you've taught me is just...wonderful. The poems, written by the Secondborn, that you had me record for the living. The little parlor tricks the family does to entertain children, the legends and histories, those are fascinating, wonderful. Hellfire, I even like the damn demons, when you're not purposefully setting me up with /complete bastards/."

Robert bows his head, quietly. "I wanted you to be ready," he murmurs. "I knew you were called to battle. I wanted you to be prepared."

"I didn't need help with that, Robert," you tell him, frustration coloring your voice. "I need help learning how to handle /peace/. But nothing's really changed. I'm feeling my way through all this stuff hoping I don't fuck up and the best I've gotten is distant words of encouragement, which is fucked up. Now I'm on my way to murder someone in fucking agony, and I'm going to do it because all the rationalizations for it sound right, but I don't actually /know/. Do you get that? I don't /know/."

>>48228202
And you're just cramming your hate for Bri into characters and then trying to justifying it "oh, well it doesn't have to be rational." That sort of reasoning can be used to justify making any character think pretty much anything. Never mind that the criticism makes no sense in or out of character, it's what you want the characters to think.

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>>48229764
"I have wronged you."

"No shit," you drawl. "...And despite all that I still kinda like you. You and Bri were the first people to give a shit about me in longer than I can remember. I don't /like/ feeling this way. I don't like thinking that you don't actually care. It was easier to just know that nobody cared, you know that?"

"I...you will just say that you do not believe me. And why should you? I've given you no reason to."

"Got it in one," you answer. "Bri and I, we'll have it out when I get back. But you? I appreciate that you've taught me, and you've even taught me well. But it's time I learned something else."

"I cannot stop your lessons entirely," Robert warns. "There's still much to learn, especially if you intend on emphasizing the lore of Hell over necromancy. Lessons, warnings, techniques."

"We can hash that out later," you agree. You feel the anchor you threw into the ice break, and Robert snaps back to you; there is a faint, dizzying sensation that goes with it.

<If it helps, you've done better at this than I did> the ghost tells you, in the silence of your mind. <You care enough to want to be better.>

"...I suppose so," you answer, before you set off again.

Your mentor stays remarkably silent as you cross the distance to Cannot Hold. You have to make camp, partway there, and meet Robert in your dreams, as always. The night is spent honing your linguistics - your demonic needs the work, and it's something the two of you can do without causing...problems.

The old man's tone is gentler, more guiding, than you're used to.

You make it to Cannot Hold the next day, unstrapping the skates from your feet and ascending the hill. Sir Fetch chirps a greeting as you enter; Hatchet and a young woman who can only be Emily take their hands from their weapons.

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>>48229956
"You're going to want to clear out for this," you warn them, as you set your pack down. "Take the books and anything fragile and get to a safe distance, in case she has some method of striking back."

There isn't much in Cannot Hold. Within an hour, the skeletal boar is loaded down with everything worth saving, and clear of everyone but you, and Robert.

"What's my play, do you think?" you ask. "I'm leery of demonfire. She's Rain Choir, it may not kill her fast enough."

<Balefire will kill just about anything, but the same concern potentially applies. If it doesn't kill her immediately it'll kill her eventually, but if she knows what she's been struck with...>

"She'd be a wounded beast with nothing to lose," you finish. "That means necromancy. I don't suppose I could /summon/ her?" you ask suddenly, struck by the idea.

<If I could summon angels, would I bother with demons?>

"Since they're easier to control and can't rip your soul out?

<...Point. But I wouldn't have a clue where to start.>

"I should think it similar in principle," you muse. You take a broom and clear off a section of the floor. "We draw a hexacle, here. Use the eyes to create a connection and anchor the otherworldly part of her to it. Could potentially just rip her in half, but, I mean. That's kind of another way of solving this problem..."

<What would the goal of this be?>

You look away, over the wastes of the Broken Jaw. "Offer her a chance to surrender?" you say at last. "I don't like the taste of this, Robert. I don't want to be an /assassin/."

<There are practicalities to consider, River. If she is to die anyway, why endanger yourself? Others? Why risk her escape? We know she can teleport. If your summoning doesn't work...>

"If it does, I can keep her here. I know the runes and wards that will stop her from leaving. One way or another, this will be finished."

<...The choice is yours.> the ghost concedes.

> Attack with balefire
> Use necromancy
> Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
> Attempt the summoning
I am such a sucker for a good redemption story

>>48229811
Anger towards Bri was what won the vote. I don't know why you keep neglecting this fact.

And I don't vote for every character to hate Bri. So you're just wrong about that.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
>Attempt Balefire
We're not going to get there for a while, and a heavily weakened boss is better than one at full power, at the least. Summoning just seems like a bad plan, considering that this is the same person that started a cult around herself and had to be smacked out of it by her angel parent.

>>48230062
>> Use necromancy

>>48230062
>Use necromancy.
Is there any way we can channel some of the Death-in-Steel from Sleep? I feel like that would be even more effective that balefire or a slaying spell.

>>48230062
>Use necromancy
There's no redemption for this one. She's fucking insane.

>>48230062
> Use necromancy

Least risky.

If we want to feel better about it, she's likely suffering right now. We're not just putting her out of everyone else's misery.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48229811
In my view her simmering, bubbling anger at Bri is entirely justified from her point of view, even if it is wrong. We've got strong emotions coming to the surface that are dragging every little scrap that is possible to vent with it ready to break at the shore.

I'm not the one you've been arguing with but honestly Bri has been a very bad sister, mentor and guide to an obviously unstable person who above all else needs someone to be a pillar and emotional support. IMO There is a serious case of headcanon if you cannot find a reason for River needing to vent.
Are you not just preoccupied with the thought that he wants a character to hate our MC instead of seeing it as a way for River to blow the ballast and get back on track of her own self improvement?

>>48230062
What does use necromancy mean here? How would it be different from balefire? Anyway,
>Use necromancy

I think balefire is going to amp up the self loathing going on, so let's not. Same with summoning and speaking to the victim, we're here to murder her one way or another, it's better to leave it impersonal and at a distance so there's no soul crushing remorse kicking in later.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning
If for nothing else than to test the theory and 'tele-frag'

>>48230096
Except this bitch tried to kill the adopted kids. Even if River still has some choice words for Brianna, Jewel and Cherry are family too.

Seraphina goes into the ground. NOW.

>>48230062


>Attempt the summoning

>>48230134
> Anger towards Bri was what won the vote.

An option that isn't actually based on something in the quest that you could point to won the vote, and Vox tried to write it in a way that actually makes sense given what has actually happened so that it isn't just random stuff coming out of the blue. And you're pissy about it because it isn't lining up with your own feelings about Bri.

> I don't know why you keep neglecting this fact.
You're neglecting the fact that Vox needs to at least try to maintain some semblance of continuity in order to make a decent story. Instead, you just want to crowbar in your own feelings, regardless of what actually makes sense.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
>Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
> Use necromancy

>>48230062
> Attempt the summoning

Too bad we can't stick a bomb under the summoning circle

>>48230062
>Attempt the summoning
>but prepare necromancy anyway, just in case

>>48230062
>> Use necromancy

Why the fuck are we voting to redeem the god-wannabe attempted child murderer?

>>48230062
I mean, kind of hard to vote for the ruthless kill here after our little breakdown.

Kind of shit timing River.

> Attempt summoning.

Fucking stupid in character option

>>48230359
The 'use necromancy' option refers to the sorts of slaying spells that Bri's only just now learning - having avoided them in the past - but River learned from Robert. Swift, effective, quite possibly painful but less so than being lit on fire.

>>48230062

> Use necromancy

>>48230359
I /think/ that Balefire would chew through any magical defenses she might have in place, but since her element is Rain, it might not work fast enough.

Necromancy probably means throwing a hefty slaying spell at her that, because of the sympathetic connection, she can't block or dodge.

The summoning doesn't sound like it'd go over well. Plus, River's currently in the Broken Jaw, which is nothing but ice and snow. Let's not bring the lady who can control water there.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230284
Reminder that we want sweet half-angel corpse materials, so I say we avoid ruining them as much as possible.

>>48230062
>Use necromancy

>>48230389


To say it doesn't make sense for River to be mad at Bri is ridiculous when Vox himself said that he didn't think the vote was out of character.

>And you're pissy about it because it isn't lining up with your own feelings about Bri.

Well it doesn't line up with my views on Bri exactly, so this is bullshit.

And if you put yourself in the shoes of someone like River and think they may have a bit of a chip on their shoulder that would make them angry at Bri over foisting shit off on her.

Continuity was not affected at all by having River being angry via the spirit of the vote that won.

>>48230449
Okay, then my choice stands.

>>48230456
>Let's not bring the lady who can control water there.
Agreed, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

>>48230062
> Use necromancy

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230359
There are some decent reasons for River to be upset. My point is that "oh, she's pushing decisions on to me so that they won't burden her conscience" is one that literally comes out of no where. Not feeling very connected is a fine reason for friction between the characters, because River has for the most part been operating without decent emotional support. Making something up and then inserting it when there's nothing there to support it just makes River look delusional. She has perfectly valid reasons to be upset with her situation, making up garbage that a character would need to be blind to believe just brings the character down in the name of fomenting conflict that could just as easily exist without making anyone artificially stupid.

>>48230062
> Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
>> Use necromancy

Preeeeeetty sure this vote is getting samefagged.

>>48230483
> To say it doesn't make sense for River to be mad at Bri is ridiculous when Vox himself said that he didn't think the vote was out of character.

Never said it doesn't make sense for River to be mad at Bri, just that the reasoning in the winning post was ridiculous.

>>48230538
then stop samefagging it

>>48230062
>> Use necromancy

>>48230062
>Attempt the Summoning
I just want to see her get splinched. Summon the angel, leave the human.

>>48229956
>> Use necromancy

>>48230556
>one word

Alright, much more than one word was stricken from a vote and Vox didn't seem to bitch about it when he agreed it was in character so you're wrong.

BY THE WAY.

If the summoning vote wins, for the love of god make sure the eyes are inside the summoning circle as well. I don't want a demigod that controls rain to have a source of sympathetic connection to a goddamn glacier outside of our safety net.

>>48230529
Yeah, I agree on that part. Maybe I wasn't following that closely but to me it seemed the disagreement became a general "no she can't hate Bri" moving away from that original complaint.

>>48230559
I said the vote, not the option.

Though there are suspicious ballots on both sides.

>>48230538
(I'm not this anon, for reference)
Part of me almost feels like complaining about same-faggetry, but since I'm such an indecisive bastard that I usually abstain from voting, I don't have any room to talk.

Still, someone explain to me why River should summon the half-angel with water-bending powers to the Land of Forever Winter.

>>48230062
> Use necromancy

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230601
Because waifuing.

I can promise you that's what most of the redemptionfags are voting for.

>>48230591
>for the love of god make sure the eyes are inside the summoning circle as well. I don't want a demigod that controls rain to have a source of sympathetic connection to a goddamn glacier outside of our safety net.
but lets not give her her eyes back willy nilly! seperate wards please!

>34 votes

>32 individual ips

>1 is Vox

Alright, all of you motherfuckers, stop samefagging.

>>48230062
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48230633
Notice how the IPs are going up with the >summoning votes now...

>>48230616
..But the Daughter is a /cunt/. Why would you waifu that?

>>48230633
Two of them are me. One's my phone.

>>48230654
Don't ask me, I voted to kill the bitch.

But, you know, muh hottie half-angel or some shit.

>>48230670
Well you're getting samefagged Vox.

>>48230462
Good point, changing my vote from Balefire to Necromancy.

>Attempt the summon
>>48230062
Could give less of a fuck about waifuing, but you should at least look the person you're killing in the eyes.

...Wait.

Aight, I need to move my PC here. I'll be back in ten minutes or so. May have to Final Destination this vote, which...would not please me, but I'll do it if I must.

>>48230687
Delete the balefire vote if you can and put your new one in greentext.

>>48230702

You sorta have to. There's no ambiguity here. You're being samefagged.

Reminder to everyone who wants to summon her that not only is it the least likely one to succeed, but we're bringing a WATERBENDER to a location where almost literally everything is ICE. Aka SOLID WATER.

if you wanted what I think the best option would be it would be to use necromancy.

However since the question at hand is what would River do...

>>48230062
> Attempt the summoning

>>48230653
..See, this is why I wish the vote to do this /after/ the party in Glen had won. There wouldn't be any question of how this would end if Bri was doing the ritual with River.

>>48230676
We have Amy for that! She is a literal qt monster-girl!

>>48230702
I think I speak for most of us (barring the conductor of the shit train) when I say we trust your judgement, oh ye lich lord of the black bean.

>>48230591
> Maybe I wasn't following that closely but to me it seemed the disagreement became a general "no she can't hate Bri" moving away from that original complaint.

Not really. The disagreement was over the reason why. If you look back, you'll see that a big point of disagreement was over whether there was anything to the idea that Bri was foisting decisions on River so that Bri wouldn't have them on her conscience. Which is very much the original complaint, and the specific reason behind it, not the general idea of River being angry at Bri.

>>48230376
I was actually referring to the redemption of River. I could give two shits how we kill the angel but River is trying to be a better person, which sometimes includes talking to your enemies instead of sticking a sword through them (at least at first).

>>48230789
Jewel did talk with her. Her response was to try to murder both Jewel and Cherry.

And Jewel was way more likely to get through, considering that the two of them were fucking.

>>48230789
Eh, true. But she /was/ the one that played nice with the vampire siblings that tried to escape the Roost. If it hadn't been for the Diviner, River might have made a couple friends.

Glad the bitch got her head stoved in. Gabrielle was a major ice queen, of glacial proportions.

>>48230062
> Attempt the summoning

>>48230898
you can fucking stop

>>48230911
> Attempt the summoning

>>48230585
Vox used the anger. He just didn't use that reason.

Which is, in fact, exactly what I've been arguing for.

>>48230934
Are you saying that Vox railroads?

Perish the thought

>>48230959
Only when the children won't play nice.

As the guy who keeps posting the DLQ train picture, may I just say >>48230959 is not me.

>attempt summoningsummoning

>>48230959
No. He just needs things to make at least some sense in the context of the story and keep the characters from acting completely delusional just because an anon wants to make something up. Which is why the anger (which was understandable) stayed, but the reason behind it (which was simply made up for this thread and has no basis in the actual story) didn't. It's a balancing act, trying to blend what the voters want with what actually makes sense in the story. I think he did fine, but some people seem to be salty about it.

>>48231030
Fags will be fags.

>>48231030

Alright, so let's just go through this line by line. I'll admit, tone is off and super edgy. But let's look at this.

Because Bri keeps telling me we're fucking family

TRUE

Then foisting me off on trash-tier jobs that nobody else wants to do.

ARGUABLE

She calls herself my big sister

TRUE

gives me goddamn shit for actual guidance.

ARGUABLE

She calls it trusting me to make decisions

TRUE

Decisions she knows I do NOT have the capacity to make

Probably not true, but River thinking she isn't capable and then projecting that onto Bri does not seem out of nowhere, out of character or not make sense in context.


but would rather not have on her own conscience.

This seems to be the only line with any contention. And the fact that Bri has not taken responsibility for any part of River's jobs, training or anything. Just gave her shit and said go if River were to go back to being bad, would Bri feel like it was her fault? Probably, but not to River.


I shouldn't be SHOCKED, considering how my LAST family worked out, but whoops, look at me, I accidentally forgot to always expect the worst always.

And the rest of this isn't saying much.
We do not see enough of River and player her enough especially since we are gone from her for long chunks of time to not say that that sense of feeling Bri is purposely not watching out for her to not have shit on her conscience.

Especially since Vox said this vote was to DEFINE a bit of River's character. A persecution complex or mistakenly thinking Bri is trying to keep her conscience clean by not being the one to 'order' River to do dark shit like demonology is a viable belief.

And it was what was voted for.

>>48230062
> Use necromancy
One chance to alpha strike with no penalty, not using it.
No redemption today, only justice.

>>48231125
But everyone has to be happy anon!

And talk like /this/ where they quip every 5 seconds like it's a Marvel movie.

Can't have drama between main characters, no sirree.

>>48230702
To be honest, I voted for necromancy and then changed my mind too late yo delete it and just voted twice for summoning to balance it out.

Not because I think the Daughter can be redeemed, but because she deserves the chance.

What's the worst that could happen? Robert gets annihilated to save River?

>>48231203
But..it's as simple as
>Greentexting your votes.
All you have to do is link back to your old vote with your new one.

Also, you /never/ say 'What's the worst that could happen?" That's like asking to be smote by God, or giving the presidency to..well, any of the candidates really.

>>48231310
>or giving the presidency to..well, any of the candidates really.

LE QUIRKY MODERN DAY POLITICAL HUMOR

>>48231203
I voted for summon, that said I could see it leading to rivers death. However it could also lead to character development as that kind of action is the standing goal of who river want's to be, as well as the option the character as it is developed so far is most likely to take.

River makes dumb decisions sometimes, this is not new; hope she doesn't die from this.

Alright, let's make this simple.

Revote time. This vote closes at 7:27 PM EST. If you're even a second late, too bad.

> Necromancy
> Attempt the summoning

Go.

>>48231363
>> Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>> Attempt the summoning

plz don't die :(

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
> Attempt the summoning

>>48231324
Oh, I wasn't trying to be funny. I am, to my own chagrin, even more disgusted with my government than I was before.

>>48231363
>Necromancy.
Spooky skeleton powers go!

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>Summon
Way I figure it, knowing Vox, one of three things is going to happen:
>We rip the angelic half off of her and deposit it here, killing her as well as hand-delivering us the best crafting bits.

>We bring her here and redeem her somehow. Boring, but probably most likely.

>We bring her here and are not prepared. Robert probably re-dies to save us. Big loss.

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>Attempt the summoning

>>48230062
>use necromancy

She tried to kill the daugtherus. She needs to be killed at once.

Called, writing.

>>48231363
OTHER
>SUMMONING WITH NECROMANCY
If impossible
>use necromancy.

>>48231460
Too late, screwball

>>48231500
Meh what ever

it occurred to me, that this could be Roberts final test as it were; he was never doubting that river would be a good necromancer only if she would be a good la Croix. A la Croix would try to redeem first instead of going strait for the violence while River before would have probably skipped to just killing her.

>>48231535
I loth the day someone is adopted in the family and needs to be teached by Mark.

Summoning just seems like a shitty, shitty idea.

But whatever

Necromancy fags blown the fuck out!

>>48231589
Eh, all this proves is he who samefags faster and harder wins. Pretty typical.

>>48231626
SALTY

AS

FUCK

>>48231626
>votes within seconds of each other
>like ten new IPs
Samefagging sure

>>48231626
What? It looks more like the 2 Necromanyfags are caught samefagging the orignal vote.

Suddenly going from 15+ votes to 2.

>>48231626
Oh anon just chill. The good thing about all of this is that River will finally see that no good deed goes unpunished.

Also am i the only one that finds funny that the half angel is the bad guy and the necromancer with demons is the least assholeist?

I love how this thread started off bad and just got worse.

>>48231720
You are new here aren't you?

>>48231634
couldn't care less, didn't even vote.


>>48231668
they were obviously more invested for sure.

>>48231672
Mhmm, that's why summoning get getting votes at the end there hm?

>>48231712
We'll see what happens.

>>48231125
> "River should think that Bri is foisting decisions on her so that they won't be on her conscience."
> "Why would she think that?"
> "it's an irrational belief, I don't need to point to anything that would give a reason for her to think that."

That's the whole argument.

Which was started because Vox largely ignored anon's desire to make River think something for which that anon refused to provide a reason, in favor of something that actually makes sense.

Which sparked the usual accusations of railroading and mary sue-ness from salty anon.

Because apparently Bri is a mary sue since this one character isn't randomly hating her for things that have no actual basis, and instead is upset about things that actually do have some basis in fact.

>>48231171
> Can't have drama between main characters, no sirree.
No one has argued for that. Just that the drama can and should be about things that make some sense. As mentioned before, River does have fine reasons to be upset. The one that started this argument, however, was not one of them.

>>48231751
Except their is basis for this shit.

River was supposed to be put on the path of good after being a shitty mercenary.

And the person responsible just let her have an evil ghost on her shoulder telling her to go into demonology and assassinate a fucking half-angel.

Who wouldn't at least give a little pause about that shit

you know I find it pretty interesting that literally 2 threads after a 2 month hiatus the shitstorms are back as strong or stronger then ever. I've been waiting and watching because I enjoy the quest, but have the shit disturbers really just been sitting here and waiting for the quest to come back so that they would have something to complain about?

It's a funny image in my head just this really angry dude sitting at his computer screen going "just 1 more week until I can accuse vox of railroading again"

>>48231363
> Attempt the summoning

>>48231363
>> Necromancy

>>48231845
There really are people who are like that.

>>48231845
>>48231917


You caught me. That's what I did.

Hating Vox is the sole thing sustaining me.

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>>48230062
"We're going to try the summoning," you decide. "I'll take the rest of today to prepare it, rest, and then try it first thing in the morning. If I'm doing this, I'm taking every precaution."

<Such as?> Robert asks, as you open your pack - you'd set it on the table before - and begin digging out various materials from both it and your belt pouches.

"Such as asking you how you'd fight a Rain nephilim, for starter," you answer, a little wryly.

<...Fire. We will need fire.>

You sweep a corner of the room clean and kneel to draw a pentacle in chalk. "We'll have fire."

The succubus you summon is named Tristina; she prefers Tina, and enjoys painting, long walks in secluded woods, magical theory, and the look on people's faces when they've already came and she keeps going. You didn't need to know that last part, but she told you anyway, and now you can't stop blushing whenever she gives you a wry look.

You'd almost summoned Darshan back instead, but...that's not the kind of person you want to work with, you think.

"We'll need flame to block the borders between Cannot Hold and the ice outside," you tell Tina. "If you can, we need the roof enclosed as well. I can maybe get my shadow to carry me up that high, but I'd rather not test that idea for the first time against someone who flies."

"Understandable," the succubus muses. "What will you be doing?"

"Sealing the area against teleportations. The Dungeon's magic-saturated enough for them to be possible, and I don't need her escaping to attack my friends and loved ones. Both of us will need a forge, so we may as well get one built."

"As Mistress wishes," the succubus purrs.

"/Please/ stop calling me that," you plead. "I'm having enough problems with my love life."

"You knew what you summoned," Tina answers, sashaying out of Cannot Hold to gather stones for a forge. "You don't get one or the other, pretty one. Sorceress, succubus, it's a package deal."

<If I were a younger man...>

"/Not helpful!/"

>>48231955
>She enjoys painting, long walks in secluded woods, magical theory, and the look on people's faces when they've already came and she keeps going.

I like her already.

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>>48231955
The forge you build is a simple thing, but you don't need much - just enough to tame the flame and produce the runes you need. You and Tina take turns, alternately forging what you need from the small balls of steel you keep in your pack, and setting them up through Cannot Hold. Robert advises you on the placement of your wards, and on his advice you also remove the various tables and shelves that adorn the place - less for the wind to knock around later, if it comes to a fight.

Which it probably will.

"May I ask what your complaint with this nephilim is?" Tina inquires, pausing to pull her dark hair back into a loose ponytail. It won't stop getting in her eyes.

"She enslaved an angel of the Death Choir and tried to kidnap one of my nieces and murder the other," you answer, frankly.

"That's...a remarkably good reason," Tina notes, a curious tone in her voice. "Why not strike her down from afar instead of risking this?"

"Because if I'm going to say I'm a better person than she is, I need to act like it," you answer softly. "Tina, I understand that you are who you are, and that's fine. But tonight, while I'm resting? I'd prefer you to stay clothed and keep the come-ons to yourself. Do you want to go back to Hell before this fight starts?"

She blinks, then tilts her head at you. "...She could kill me for true, couldn't she," the demoness muses. "And you care about that."

"Yeah," you answer.

"...Do you need me?"

> Yes
> No
> Write-in?

>>48232069
>> No

>>48232069
>Need? No.
>Want? Yes.
>Whether you stay or not is your choice.
Being a better person means being good to demons too.

>>48232069
> No
>I could use you, sure. But I don't want to /use/ anyone. If you want to risk yourself and help, I'd appreciate it for what little that's worth, but I'm not going to force you to do so.

>>48232069
>> No

this is the bed we chose, we lay in it ourselves and without getting frigged off by a sexy demoness. That comes after we win.

>>48232069
> No

>>48232069
>> No

>>48231799
How is that a basis for "Bri is pushing decisions on to River so that she won't have it on her conscience." Sure, it would give someone pause, and lead to thinking like >>48222619. That's somewhat different.

Also, Bri asked River to deal with the Daughter because she is stuck in bed and River knows that she is. And Robert's shit is Robert, hence the anger that River directed at Robert which anon got salty about because it wasn't directed at Bri like he wanted.

>>48232208
Because Robert's an evil ghost who learned demon shit.

Bri is the one who should be saying "eh, maybe you shouldn't do that" but instead is keeping her hands off so River can do the amoral deals with demons for power.

And seeing as we had a choice to wait for Bri to be better to deal with the daughter but instead sent River to go do it, there was a choice to foist the responsibility and the guilt of killing an angel on the conscience of River and not Bri.

>>48232069
seconding this >>48232119

>>48232126
>This

Called, writing.

>>48232242
> Bri is the one who should be saying "eh, maybe you shouldn't do that" but instead is keeping her hands off so River can do the amoral deals with demons for power.
When River told Bri that Robert was teaching demonology, Bri did caution her about dealing with demons, and particularly about taking instruction from Robert.

At the same time, there's also the fact that demonology isn't as flat out evil in this setting by virtue of the fact that demons and hell aren't actually primordial evil like in other settings.

> there was a choice to foist the responsibility and the guilt of killing an angel on the conscience of River and not Bri.
Except that not what happened. Bri asked River to kill the Daughter so that the Daughter will be dead, even though Bri's stuck in bed recovering. There's nothing there that would make Bri reluctant to do the deed, especially not after the Daughter tried to kill Jewel and Cherry. She has in past threads expressed a DESIRE to kill the Daughter because of that.

>>48232841
You keep pointing these things out from our position as omniscient, logical viewers. River is neither omniscient, nor especially logical

>>48233003
River was the one that Bri was talking to when she said to be careful with demonolgy and Robert.
And Bri told River about what happened with the Daughter and Jewel well before she got stuck in a bed. She knew that Bri wanted to kill the Daughter beforehand.

>>48231720
Vox doesn't actually know 4chan or tg culture. Or how to do a final destination vote lol.

Personally I'm just enjoying the read, voting is for chumps that don't see the Bioware writing on the wall here.

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>>48232069
The demoness's look is more curious than compassionate or scared, but the offer seems serious.

"Need?" you say at last. "No. Want, could use? Yeah, but I'm not gonna force you into it. Especially since I don't really understand the relationship of the Secondborn with death, now that I think about it."

"We don't talk about it a lot," Tina admits. "...Maybe you can buy the tale off of me sometime. Though I suppose I'd have to stay for that."

"I can just -"

"And if I /must/," the succubus continues, trampling over your protest in a smoky voice, "I suppose I ought to help."

"...Why?" you ask, simply.

"The time when the Firstborn dealt with the Second as equals is long dead and long done," Tina answers, with a shrug of her wings. "But I get nostalgic. Get your rest, Mistress. And don't you have a worry in your head for yourself or your swain. I'll...indulge...elsewhere."

"How'd you know I have a -"

"Succubus. Go to sleep."

Robert spends the night coaching you through attack spells and techniques for the fight ahead, a worried look in what you can see of his face beneath his hood.

In the morning, it is time. You spend the time to stretch and practice with Sleep, ensuring that you're as ready as you can possibly be. Tina ignites the flaming wards she created while you etch your hexacle into the floor and line it with the materials needed for the summoning.

Not for the last time, you curse your current lack of armor. You're going to ask Bri how she made that chitin after you're done giving her a piece of your mind.

<Hrm. Edward's Calling?>

"It'll consume the eyes. I don't need her jamming them back into her face," you explain.

<Good thinking.>

You take a deep breath and begin the ritual.

>>48233003
>>48232841

This.

I think the problem here is not that I especially hate Bri (I don't) or am forcing my opinions onto all the other characters (wasn't even my write-in) or that I personally think Bri's biggest problem is foisting decisions onto other people to keep them off her conscience (I don't think that at all.)

Actually I think you are the one who is so consumed by your meta perspective of all the information that River does not have and your own colored positive perspective of Bri so you can't possibly fathom how River could misinterpret things or be irrational or hold a chip on her shoulder or all the other dozens of human things people do all the time.

Now, there's nothing particularly wrong about River being very logical and not holding a grudge against Bri.

But there's also nothing particularly wrong about River being very irrational especially since I assume she's under a lot of pressure.

River is a minor character whose mind we spend very little time in, and seeing as Vox specifically said DEFINE we got to work with her personality a tiny bit and make it whatever way we wanted.

And since the winning vote was the anger and claiming Bri was foisting shit off on River that's what happened.

And remember that most people still believe that demons are evil pieces of shit and Darshan certainly lives up to the reputation.

>>48233168

A casual warning does not scream to me "I'm super concerned with this and it is weighing on my conscience"

And talk is cheap when you're the one ordered to assassinate the angel when Bri easily could have waited until she had recovered to do her own dirty work. She didn't.

She took being bed-ridden as an out to get River to do the kill the angel.

>>48233209
Whuh?

>>48232097
>>48232144
>>48232185
>>48232192

4 nos

>>48232119
>>48232126
>>48232650
>>48232659

4 votes that could be interpreted as no, but I could use your help please stay.


That's a tie.

Where the fuck is the tiebreaker roll Vox?

>>48233212
> I think you are the one who is so consumed by your meta perspective of all the information that River does not have
I've been pointing out things that Bri has literally told River. That is stuff she knows in character. On the flip side, it's people who insist on the "foisting decisions to avoid burden on conscience" who say things like
>>48228202
>this isn't some debate where I need to cite my sources to definitively and objectively prove claims.
and come at it from a completely meta perspective of conflict without in-character reason.

>>48233309
In character reason is that River has been forced to deal with a fucking ghost, summoning demons and killing an angel and feels like she's being left to still follow a dark path despite being promised redemption. What are you talking about?

>>48233212
> your meta perspective
The argument for River having a persecution complex and thinking that Bri was using her as a guilt-free out was always just that an anon wanted it that way and said that he couldn't be assed to find anything to justify it. And yet that's not meta, but asking what reasons River might have and going through the things that Bri has said to her is meta?

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>>48233209
You can feel the spell hook, and you bite your lower lip in concentration. This wouldn't work on a part-demon, but angels are not the Secondborn, and you'd had your suspicions. There's a struggle, on the other side, like a fish flailing at the end of the line, but it's pointless.

The hexacle glows a dull, bitter red, and the half-angel appears before you, with her blind eye sockets wrapped in a white cloth. Her chain is wrapped around her waist and locked to itself to prevent it from falling down.

She lashes out with shocking speed, and you catch her punch with the flat of Sleep. She recoils, her wings flinging water and ice as they flap in pain.

"I didn't have to summon you," you note. "I could have just killed you where you stood."

"What do you want, /whelp/?" the nephilim spits.

> "Surrender and you will be spared."
> "I wanted to give you as fair a fight as you're going to get."
> "What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"
> Write-in?

>>48233241
I'd interpreted that as eight nos, four with an explanation; not a conflict.

>>48233325
And again, where does that become this >>48221760
as opposed to something like this >>48222619

What you're talking about is a lack of guidance, not a case of "using me as a scapegoat for a guilty conscience."

>>48233346
meta as in you can see into Bri's mind and know because you play her that she isn't foisting shit off on other people to ease her own conscience.

River can't see into Bri's mind.

River has been given shit duties and is being tasked with killing an angel and learning dark shit that even Bri won't touch

>>48233384
the lack of guidance, I assume, is the result of not getting involved to preserve bri's conscience.

Also one was the winning vote and the other one wasn't.

>>48233375
>"What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"

>>48233381
That was a loaded as fuck vote wasn't it then.

I voted no because I didn't want to risk the succubus.

But because I said "no" to 'needing' her and not 'no, don't stay' I get my vote pretty much disregarded.

> People still responding to shitposting

Stop. Just stop.

It's pointless. People have always and will always bitch about literally anything Vox does. It will be called railroading. It will be called mary sue. Now it's being called bioware writing. There's no point that is being made, it's just the usual hate for the sake of hate. If he had done anything else, they would be complaining about that instead.

Just ignore it.

>>48233375
>> "What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"

>>48233375
>> "What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"

>>48233410
> Also one was the winning vote and the other one wasn't.
A winning vote that was inconsistent with events in the quest doesn't necessarily just get used unmodified. Vox needs to maintain some internal consistency, which is why it was modified a bit. And he was right to do that. Anons are just salty because they the got something that was tweaked to actually work instead of something random.

>>48233375
>> "What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"

also can we please stop arguing over stuff? it's all pretty much pointless and taking up thread space

>>48233485
It wasn't random and it worked with the internal consistency.

There is plenty of reasons to think that Bri's lax guidance of River correlates directly to not wanting her conscience burdened with the dark things River does.

>>48233487
Welcome to the internet

>>48233487
> Trying to argue against blatant railroading
> Arguing for the QM respecting the winning vote

> pointless

No. The fact that one person repeatedly defends indefensible behavior is not a reason to stop. Sooner or later Vox needs to realize that he fucked up and needs to change if he wants people to keep reading his quest.

>>48233519
What's the point of it? It's not like vox is going to retroactively change the story at this point

>>48233519
>needs to change if he wants people to keep reading his quest.

Except I'm a retard who keeps reading Vox's fucking novel no matter how blatant his railroading.

>>48233487
Vox should just retcon River's response. Until he mans up and admits his mistake, this will just keep on going.

>>48233543
No.

As the number one man arguing against this fucking railroading bullshit

No.

Fuck retcons.

Just don't fuck up in the future.

>>48233539
He can and he should. It's the only way to settle this. If he wants to put an end to the accusations of railroading, he must start respecting the winning votes.

>>48233563
Hey if we're retconning can we retcon naming Amy's wings Soaring Song?

I want it to be Crescendo. :^)

>>48233375
>> "What is it /you/ want, Seraphina?"

>>48233558
> implying Vox will ever stop fucking up
Every time he fucks up, people just say don't do it again. Then he finds a way to fuck up even worse and his shills continue to eat it up. Until there are some actual consequences for him, he's not going to change.

>>48233519
Go away Vaelys.

>>48233563
Well the other thing Vox could do is stop asking for criticism.

So far, he keeps no matter what asking specifically for 'criticism'.

If he doesn't want to improve in the face of all these complaints he should just say he doesn't want the complaints.

Then at least we all agree that Vox would like to mire in the shitpool he's created and no one can fight that.

At that point all these complaints have no legitimate reason. People want to play in their shit they're allowed. Its a free board.

>>48233543
>>48233614

Yep, Vaelys to the max.

>I don't like thing
>retcorn or your quest will die
>you're a bad QM because bad things happen
>do as I say or else all is lost

No quest has ever died because of your bullshit, ever.

>>48233653
>>you're a bad QM because bad things happen

No one complains about this in this quest.

In fact the people arguing in the spirit of the vote are arguing for an arguably worse situation where River is actually super angry at Bri.

>>48233653
> implying I'm Vaelys

Besides, it's already dying, and my "bullshit" isn't what's doing it. Vox is a fucking awful writer, and his shills are doing everything in their power to keep him that way. Unless he tries to actually improve and starts taking the criticisms that he gets to heart, his quest is going to continue declining.

But have we thought, maybe River IS mad at Bri, and just didn't want to have that out with Robert?

>>48233636
Then he should take his shitpool to anonkun. /tg/ is better than this bioware tier trash.

Called, writing.

>>48233692
You care to unpack that feedback into a useable form?

>>48233692
Hey Vox wrote a novel you loser.

He's obviously a good writer!

>>48233692
No, it just looks like it's dying because you can't shut up about shit you don't like. You're like a 4rrie in a 3.5 thread: you don't like thing, you hate thing, so you're going to sit here and shitpost in it.

>>48233723
The only reason she even went after Robert is because Vox was trying to deflect the anger off of his mary sue and on to the easily hatable ghost asshole. Stop assuming that he's got any depth to his writing, he clearly doesn't.

>>48233729
It already has been, you just refuse to listen.

Either stop pretending like you actually care about criticism like >>48233636 suggests, or start actually respecting the desires of your readers, as >>48233563 says.

>>48233739
> He smeared his shit across a bunch of pages, so that must mean his shit is gold!

>>48233751
>Brianna
>Mary Sue

Ahahahahahahaha. Ahahaha. Ha.

If Bri were a Sue she would have never had those arguments with Amy and Nathan, never had to deal with the Rose cultists being shitboots, the Diviner wouldn't have been able to fuck with her, etc etc.

You have every right to feel she's poorly written (that's your opinion and you're entitled to it), but a Sue is an objective, specific type of poorly written character, one that Brianna doesn't fit into.

>>48233729
eh, don't listen to them. It goes round and round and round.

I'd honestly think we'd be better off if complaints were just ignored

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This fucking thread Vox, christ almighty you've struck autism gold.

Hahaha

>>48233835
> lists a bunch of things that got magically resolved without a problem
> somehow this is evidence that the character isn't a mary sue
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

>>48233850
then you should complain to Vox that he keeps asking for us to complain.

:^)

>>48233806
Hey, vox puts in a lot of time and effort for this quest, if you don't like what he's writing go read something else

No one is forcing you to participate in this, and you are actively dragging the quality down for everyone else by acting like this

>>48233882
Don't like it, don't read.

Leave our circlejerk in peace!

If only Vox put that at the top of every thread.

>>48233866
>magically resolved without a problem
The word you're looking for there is "naturally," not "magically."

Bri encountered problems, and dealt with them as easily as anyone with even basic common sense would.

>>48233882
> person trying to fix problems
> you are actively dragging the quality down for everyone else
Okay, this has to be bait.

>>48233866
>bunch of things that magically got resolved without a problem
>>ignoring the multiple threads we had to spend dealing with them

If Brianna was a Sue, the problems wouldn't have happened in the first place, because Sues inherently warp the story so that everything goes absolutely perfectly for them.

This is like calling a fetus a baby. It's just fucking incorrect terminology.

>>48233882
Stop biting the goddamn bait.


fucking christ

>>48233932

>Bri has so many problems oh my gawd she is nut mary sue!

>except these problems were so easy anyone with common fucking sense could solve them


So . . . she's a mary sue?

>>48233918
>>48233937
> He smeared his shit across a bunch of pages, so that must mean his shit is gold!
>Leave our circlejerk in peace!

No, what I'm asking is that you respond with a little bit of respect or civility. Do you think that by insulting other people you're going to actually change their minds? That if you howl and complain loud enough or make yourself enough of a nuisance that Vox will listen to you?

You are not trying to fix the problem, you're just shit posting

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>>48233937

>>48233969
I'm not giving YOU respect or civility.

The conversation was never about you.

You are unimportant flies because unlike the democratic process of voting I don't need to sway all of you fuckers.

I just need to talk to Vox.

And you constantly get in the way because how dare someone speak ill of him.

If you disagree, we can shitpost at each other but don't act like it's all me when you keep responding.

>>48233932
They were dealt with because people magically behave unrealistically unreasonable and deferential toward her. That's not "natural." People don't behave reasonably. As has been pointed out already, in reality people have limited knowledge, they don't have all the meta knowledge that we do because of the power of shifting perspective, and on top of that they behave irrationally. Having everyone be perfectly reasonable and agreeable around a character IS the mark of a mary sue.

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>>48233958
>>48234021

>>48234021
Then why don't you summarize your criticisms in a single post, provide proper reasoning for them, and do it in a civil tone?

Cause otherwise you're just continuing to shitpost.

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>>48234028

>>48234048
Because Vox has fucking 'tone policed' my criticism.

You're the only one doing that.

I'll give Vox one thing, he is much more rational and down to earth then his hoards of fans.

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>>48233375
"Me? What is it /you/ want?" you ask, pointedly. "What's your end game here, Seraphina? How does this end with you on top?"

"The Master promised me. He promised that I could be a god of his new world. It is my /right/," the nephilim shrieks. "/I/ built my church, /I/ gathered the faithful. Glorious was /my/ name! And it was /taken from me/! Where was my father during times of famine? Where are the angels when war scars the land? But I lust for the same glory any of the Firstborn crave and I /alone/ am denied it?"

"You understand that you are losing, yes?" you point out, flatly.

Seraphina laughs, long and bitter. "You'll never cross the Mire, fool. You'll die in agony and feed its roots like all the others. Strike me down here if you must. I've already won."

The blind woman spreads her arms wide, a challenging expression on her face.

Your grip tightens on Sleep. You don't trust this - this isn't a beaten foe, or a suicidal wretch.

> Channel death through Sleep
> Lunge
> Go for a slaying spell
> Use balefire
> Try to keep her talking
> Write-in?