Migrating my suggestion for the Knights' basic statline

Order of the Aegis. Mutated into massive guardians.

Lord Marshal 110 huge heavy armored leader q2 c4

Veteran knight 73 huge heavily armored q2 c4

Knight 58 huge heavily armored q3 c4

Knight aspirant 30 huge q4 c3

Order of the lance. Mutated to run faster than humanly possible and go days without rest.

Lord Marshal 113 long move leader q2 c4

Vanguard 75 long move q2 c4

Knight 60 long move q3 c4

Knight aspirant 35 fragile long move q4 c3

Order of ? Mutated for superhuman reflexes.

Lord Marshal 108 agile evade and counter leader q2 c4

Duelist 70 agile evade and counter q2 c4

Knight 56 agile evade and counter q3 c4

Knight aspirant 27 agile q4 c3

Order of ? Mutated for superhuman eyesight.

Lord Marshal 113 longbow unerring aim leader q2 c4

Sniper 75 longbow unerring aim q2 c4

Knight longbow unerring aim q3 c4

Knight aspirant longbow q4 c3

What do you all think?

>>50669075

Niiice pic OP. Should we include Primitive Human Tribal nomads as a minor faction?

>>50669158
Wouldn't they get wiped out by the lizadds prety fast?

>>50669130

well while i'm at it might as well drop the suggestions i have for the lizards statline. For the record all names are just stand ins, assuming you guys decide to use these stat lines they would need some new names.

Archer Horde lord 90 savage mount composite bow good shot inspiring presence q3 c2

mounted archer retainer 64 savage mount composite bow good shot q3 c2

mounted archer elite 52 mounted composite good shot q3 c2

mounted archer 39 mounted composite good shot q4 c2

Mounted archer novice 35 mounted composite q4c2

Calvary Horde lord 86 savage mount free disengage inspiring presence q3 c3

Calvary retainer 60 savage mount free disengage q3 c3

Elite calvary 48 mounted free disengage q3 c3

Calvary 36 mounted free disengage q4 c3

Calvary novice 29 mounted free disengage q4 c2

Am i just barking up the wrong trees here?

>>50669075
OP of the original thread here, for future reference, a thread doesn't hit bump limit until 310, and doesn't leave the catalog until it hits page 10. We should wait until that happens before starting a new thread from now on.

Also, I'm also the OP of the /fvgt/, a thread dedicated to encouraging threads like these to pop up more often. We've actually been looking for a Wargame to help make a free wargaming simulator, BattleBox3d, more popular on here. I posted the last thread as an experiment, but I didn't expect it to get near the popularity it did. As such, I'd be happy to work on gathering 3d models and tokens for BB3D and Tabletop Simulator in order to make actually playing this game a reality.

>>50669075
>>50669258
>>50669346
>>50669415

These images are all awesome by the way. Very nice.

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>>50669439
Sorry, I don't mean to intrude on you but I thought I'd take the initiative. Like I said I don't know the post limit so I won't do anything like that again in future

>>50669445
Thank you. This is the last one unless someone wants to write stuff for the remnant. sorcerers, dragons and the free city

>>50669445

Agreed, they fit the setting perfectly.

>>50669227

I was picturing constantly moving, paranoid, stealthy familial tribes of only twenty or so individuals at the most. They'd be extremely rugged, and possibly mutated to more easily survive the wastes. The tribal nomads would survive by avoiding everyone else, and would likely be a Peril of the Wastes, and possibly cheap mercenaries for the Yona Clan

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This is a question bridging the background and the game rules that champion anons like >>50669130 and >>50669430 are working on.

Should the eldritch dragons be represented on the tabletop, or should their faction be represented entirely through their centaur servants, with the strongest centaurs being those most corrupted?

>>50669430

Proposal for the lizardmen monks of their monasteries

Master of the monastery 94 Arrowcatcher ,Flurry of Blows, Way of intercepting fist . Inspiring presence q3 c2

Enlightened one 68 Arrowcatcher ,Flurry of Blows ,Way of intercepting fist q3 c2

Master monk 54 Arrowcatcher ,Way of intercepting fist q3 c2

Monk 41 Arrowcatcher , Way of the intercepting fist q4 c2

novice monk 26 way of the intercepting fist q4 c2

>>50669642
>>50669430
>>50669130

So these are all my proposals thus far. Can i get some feedback. Here what you all think, and if you'd like to see more or if i should step back and let some other anon's up to bat.

>>50669605
They should be the smallest model count faction imo, either have a dragon or two that are powerful as fuck and some centaur soldiers.

>>50669671

...why do i always miss something and look like an idiot. Hear, not here. Blasted typos.

>>50669671
I really like what you've done so far, I think you've nailed the knights pretty much perfectly

>>50669690

Maybe have like one dragon lord and then the rest as centaurs? I can mock up a quick stat line for review if you would like.

>>50669513
>>50669439

I'd also like to push for a new goal: Getting the Supplements uploaded to the PDF Share Thread. Each supplement is $10, and there's three that we need in order to get all the factions statted.

I'd like to propose that someone put forward their PayPal, we all pitch in a dollar or two, then that person purchase and upload the docs to the PDF Share Thread for everyone.

>>50669714

How many supplements are there? Anon doing the stat lines here, depending on how many there are i may be willing to just drop and buy them myself.

>>50669729
There's two out right now: Hammer and Forge, and Fightin' Fungi.

http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?cPath=1_52&products_id=272&osCsid=g228ebbqh7tt56bfmblv5bknb3


http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=287

>>50669765
The last one, Axe and Brimstone, just funded on Kickstarter, and backers of a certain level get the PDF.

>>50669765

Alright, lemme think about it for a bit. in the meantime here is a proposal for a dragon statline based on the fluff we have so far. though it's kinda ridiculous

253 Dragon armor, Dragon fire, Undead, gargantuan, flying, terror, incorporeal q2 c5

>>50669823
Dayum son, ridiculous is right.
But I think that fits with the dragons' identity, so I'm cool with ridiculous!

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>>50669854

>mfw your dragon is two thirds of your army

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I'm down

>>50669823

ok, so here is a quick idea for the absolute baseline centaur. Just wanna get all your thoughts before i do any more development on the line to make sure i'm taking it in the right direction.

24 undead mounted q5 c3

>>50669985
The Big trait too, perhaps?
Also Q5 seems pretty bad. I'd go with at least 4.

However this wishlist is bumping up their points, so perhaps keep the centaurs shitty? I'm torn.

>>50670105

yeah, i mean i know q5 is pretty bad, but i figure if your sinking such a massive point investment into your dragon (assuming anyone uses it) then you need cheap underlings. or i just go whole hog on them and they expensive as all get out and you have even less units than the knights on field. But that just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe have the centaurs on parity with the lizards?

>>50670105
>>50669985
>>50670105

How's this instead:

Points 44 Quality 4+ Combat 2
Traits: Drain, Magic Resistance, Mounted, Undead, Unreactive

>>50670157
Actually, Try this instead:

Points 34 Quality 5+ Combat 3
Traits Trait: Drain, Magic Resistance, Mounted, Undead, Unreactive

And the thread is now Archived.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/50647430/

>>50670171

alright lets see


Baseline 34 Mounted undead drain magic resistance unreactive q5 c3

Improved 39 Mounted undead drain magic resistance unreactive respawn q5 c3

Elite 66 Mounted undead drain magic resistance unreactive respawn q4 c3

Archer baseline 39 Drain, Magic Resistance, Mounted, Short Bow (W), Undead, Unreactive q5 c3

Improved Archer 44 Drain, Magic Resistance, Mounted, Respawn, Short Bow (W), Undead, Unreactive

Elite Archer 66 Drain, Magic Resistance, Mounted, Respawn, Short Bow (W), Undead, Unreactive

different varieties of favored of the dragons

72 Burrowing, Mounted, Respawn, Rotting Touch, Undead q3 c3

88 Drain, Mounted, Regeneration (P), Undead q3 c3

84 Deathshriek (P), Drain, Mounted, Undead q3 c3

84 Double Strike (P,W), Drain, Mounted, Undead q3 c3

84 Battle Giant (P), Drain, Mounted, Undead q3 c3

>>50670105
>>50670130

We discussed back in the first thread's lore parts about the possibility of the Dragons having a cheap as fuck total cannon fodder nearly useless Undead unit to supplement the Centaurs. The Lore also made passing mention of the dragons being "inert," and that Centaurs who are too close to the Dragons become max corrupted and horrible

What if the setup is something like there are three levels of Dragon, Full powered, half-powered, and nascent, and the level of Dragon you take with you indirectly dictates the rest of your army. If you take a full-grown dragon, you can only afford to take a handful of good Centaurs, or a decent number of useless cannon fodder zombies and less-good hyper-corrupt Centaurs. If you take a nascent dragon, you can take a full contingent of Centaurs and don't need to waste your time on shit zombies, and if you take a medium dragon you split the difference?

I make this suggestion still not really having looked at the rules for this system we're borrowing. This is just lore-based. It also makes sense as to why the dragons enslaved the Centaurs at all if they're so powerful instead of just consuming them like they plan to do all other life: their lesser forms require a bit of tending and protection while they suck in enough life to reach their full-grown state.

>>50669075

>Opens thread for pic
>Gets interested in pics and quotes
>Goes back through old thread
>Oh No

Writefag reporting in. I know absolutely nothing about playing wargames but the faction building has greatly interested me. I've only been able to skim through the last thread, but would anyone have a compilation doc of the agreed-on lore? I'd love to write/expand for Fading Embers.

>>50670501

That, makes some pretty good sense. I'll come back to it in a bit. I really need to go write now, i'm behind on updates.

>>50670525
I was actually about to suggest that myself. We need a compilation document, and a wiki page. I don't have the time right now(Finals) but anyone willing to volunteer would be great.

>>50669430
Do the lizards ride horses? I think they should ride something cooler.

>>50670567
There was a suggestion for Utahraptors and one tribe having a single T-rex

>>50669887
That's how roleplaying games started, iirc. A group got bored of renacting battles with figurines so one of the players took a toy dragon, set it on the board, and said "what do you do now?"

>>50670567

My suggestion was that the lizards have access to a variety of mounts based on their units to represent the fact that they can range in and survive in the wastes better than any other living race, but they should have a basic mount that's sort of their cultural touchstone in the way Horses are for humans, and an upgraded special breed of that basic mount for officers/khans/whatever.

>>50670589
I'm all about the lizardmen riding flightless birds. T-Rex sounds kind of... autism

>>50670567
Giant komodo dragons

>>50670567

I think just for simplification of rules leaving them as mounted makes it best. We can just say their baseline mount is something more exotic, and have a bigger meaner version for the higher ups. Personally when i was going through the statline i never thought of them as riding horses.

>>50670567
>>50670589

Dinosaurs do come to mind, but that feels like stealing from Warhammer Lizardmen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Mongolia

The lizardmen of Fading Embers are nomadic, at least from what I read. I'm thinking something exotic but not super crazy. Camels? Maybe larger-than-average leopards or gazelles? Seeing a large gazelle/deer doing those short jumps/skips would be scary--seeing a lizardman riding one more so.

>>50670525
No doc yet but apparently there will be one

Basically the world is dying. A lot of the north has basically become wastelands, desert and tundra and only small pockets of land are still hospitable

Be warned, I did a decent amount of the writing for Visamti and Zelthen so my description of them will probably be more fleshed out than the others.

MAJOR FACTIONS

Preservers of Zelthen's Light:
They were a group of fanatics and zealots from before the end time who were constantly preaching about an armageddon. As the world turned to shit they began gaining more traction since their prophecies began coming true. They use drugs and magical manipulation to turn recruits into veritable killing machines with no sense of remorse or pity. They also believe that to save the world they have to rid it of all the evil in it. Being a knight of the order means forsaking your civilian life to follow the endless crusade. They're basically turbo-spartan drugged-out templar killing machines who don't know anything but the constant war they are waging. They live in castles and monasteries in the mountains but protect various villages and trade routes too. They hail from the Old Kingdom of Restavia.

The Yonas Clans:
Bear druids who have a matriarchal society. Through nature magics they have been able to create small pockets of fertility where they live. Their a loosely knit confederation of these 'islands' who work together, pooling their druidic magic to try and find a way off of the dying planet. I recommend reading the original posts about them since it's pretty interesting.

Visamti Empire:
The human empire in the south which has dominated the world for centuries. They are ruled by an Archon who has lived for 300 years and a ruling elite who use demonic magic to bolster their armies. They are all for slavery and the Archon isn't really concerned about the end of the world, he mostly just wants to continue conquering neighbors and operating like a Feudal empire. (Cont)

>>50670589
>>50670644

Why not a wingless, dragon, or a wrym of some kind that they more or less worship?

>>50670653
I second this

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>>50670690

>>50670722

Do camels even work for a calvary charge though?

>>50670690

Gazelle Calvary. Fund it.

>>50670722

I propose that Crazy Hassan the Used Camel Trader is included in the setting as an insignificant, elusive, and mysterious trader specializing in camels. This would have no impact on the wargame itself, just be hilarious.

Maybe turn to rules to decide the mounts?

The dragon faction's overall playstyle is "Few, strong units". So if the lizardmen had t-rexes, for example, that would be a lot of overlap.

In general what kind of overall faction stratigies are in war games? Lots of weak units and few strong units are obvious ones.

>>50670700
this has caused a lot of turmoil inside the empire. A lot of people think that the Archon's approach will only leave them unprepared when the apocalypse comes to Visamt. The main contender to the throne is his great great (...) Granddaughter who is amassing an army to overthrow him. He's more interested in pitting the factions of the world against each other and sabotaging their plans of survival so that he can continue living his gluttonous life. Their armies are made up of decent cavalry and demons who are summoned by powerful spellcasters.

Lizardfolk Hordes:
Once again, read the original posts since a lot of effort went into crafting their lore but BASICALLY they are mongol-esque hermaphroditic lizard people who think that they need to rid the world of all humans to become gods and ascend to a new world. They work as mercenaries for any faction which is willing to hire them but hate the Preservers of Zelthen's light the most. I feel like I'm missing some important parts of their lore so once again I implore you to check it out.

Eldritch Dragons:
These horrific creatures have only come about after the coming of the end times and feed upon the despair in the world. They make their homes in the wastelands and have successfully enslaved and corrupted a race of philosopher centaurs who are now nothing but violent husks. Once again, READ THE ORIGINAL POSTS

There's also four minor factions which I'll give a brief description of shortly

>>50670762
I second this. MAD HASSAN THE CAMEL MAN

>Incoming writefaggotry

Why worship the Antithesis? Why not worship those consume the stars like grains of oats? Why not stand in awe of those who extract the essences of the world around them with the same effort as wringing water from a dishrag? Why not prostrate yourself before those whom the might of great wizards and gigantic armies mean as little as a sunbeam in stopping your movements? It is a child or a fool who would dare deny the proof that exists before them.

~Discussions on the Antithesis from Archippos the Enlightened. Year of the End 683.

Kinda viewing the centaurs through an Ancient Greek-like viewpoint. Why not worship those who disprove everything you thought you know about the ways of the world? Leastways, in the mindset of the one who still think gud.

>>50670736

Gazelle Cavalry is an incredible and unique concept, I nominate that they are included as a Lizardmen mount.

What if there were four choices for Lizardman baseline mounts, that make no real difference apart from appearance?

Horses, warhorses that have been bred to survive in the wasted. They aren't as rugged as the other mounts, but they are powerfully built and can carry plenty of loot. Most Lizardmen horses would be stolen from Humans.

Camels, just normal Camels selectively bred and mutated for war.

Tamed Raptors, basically slender riding dinosaur lizards with some bird features, like colored feathers, talons, and a hooked beak full of sharp teeth, good for ripping and tearing man-flesh.

Gazelles, huge, lithe, almost horse-sized, ferocious Gazelles with boundless agility and antlers for goring and thrashing.

Thoughts?

>>50670800
Lizards were defined as High Mobility Close-Combat units, and we either were going to make them incredibly fast and light guerilla tactics, or high approach, high melee tanks.

>>50670800

Well the way i had been looking at the lizardmen was to play them like mongols, like we had been saying in the fluff. Thats why i mounted all of them, had a group of mounted archers, and then gave the other a free disengage so they could hit and run like actual calvary does irl. i figured lizards would be highly mobile. Problem is looking at the centaurs there is a lot of overlap , and i'm not quite sure what to do about it. Honestly i feel like maybe just giving the dragons basic undead underlings rather than centaur undead underlings would be best. there would be less overlap and it would lead to more unique factions i think.

>>50670812
Free City State of Berustia
A crowded city state which is the last normal place on earth. They have militia and are mostly interested in preserving their independence from the other factions. They are a major maritime power and make their living off of fish and other such goods

Remnant of Restavia
The survivors of the old Kingdom of Restavia, which was the northern kingdom the knights hailed from which has become nothing but a wasteland. They have outlawed magic but developed technology to a point past any of the other factions. They have steam tanks and what not.

Sorcerers of Olde Restavia
Sorcerers of Restavia who were able to carve out small holdings for themselves during the fall of their homeland. They use golems for their armies, live in towers and have a unique approach to societal structure that resembles communism

Dwarves and Giants
Two proud races who have not been able to stand up to the fall of the world and have become nomads instead. The dwarves ride in the beards of the giants, wandering the Tundra together in vain. They hate lizards because they chased them out of their old homes.

ALso there's some talk of the Dwarves having sluggish attributes but I don't know where that's up to.

>>50670883
I'm feeling Gazells as a mount, maybe trained raptors as a super cheap, high damage/speed, low everything else unit? Like attack dogs?

>>50670838
I like it, keep it coming. I plan on giving some fluff writing in a bit. Honestly I'm excited for the wargame but I already love the setting so much that I'll use it for a D&D campaign at the very least.

>>50670958
Thing is, Stating units is just point buying traits. The Mount trait provides the same benefits no matter what the mount is, and only changes when you add more mechanical traits to reflect that(Movement increase, Size modifier) Mounts and Riders are treated as a single unit.

>>50670812

I wrote a lot of the Lizardmen lore, and this is pretty spot-on, but they aren't hermaphrodites. They have two sexes, male and female, but they have almost no sexual dimorphisism beyond their reproductive organs. They're also able to mate with Humans and spawn Lizardmwn offspring.

The Dwarves, however, were hermaphroditic.

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Is anyone gonna throw together the political map or should I?

>>50671007
Ah yeah that's it. Sorry bb

>>50670958
>>50671000

Maybe Gazelles as the basic mounts and raptors as the savage mounts for the higher ups?

>>50669574

I kind of like the idea of having primitive human nomads as a Peril of the Wastes along with the undead. After all, the world's a big place, and there's bound to be human wanderers, Lizard hordes or no, humans are awesome survivors when they're pushed to the brink. I don't know, it makes the world feel a bit more, lived in, I suppose.

>>50671007
>hermaphroditic
I think this is stupid and aproaching that guy fetish territory.

>>50671168
That was back when we were making them slugs. They're no longer Hermaphroditic, just Dwarves.

>>50670899
Split the mounts by purpose.

Give the big tanky lixards camels and the smaller hit and run strikers gazelles.

For added fun, make the mounted troops capable of being split into two units since camels will fuck you up IRL and gazelles could be fluffed to be trained to use their horns while their rider dives on their target with a spear.

High risk high reward and it differentiates them from any other mounted or cavalry type unit.

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Good News Everyone! The dev for BattleBox3d has just given me the basics of a tutorial for making quick 2d tokens in the tool:

>To make a new token copy both the .dae and the .png. Rename them identically to what you want them called. Using some kind of image editor place the front and back images in their respective locations. color the token base/edge regin if deisred.

>Place the dae and png in the models folder and start bb3d. It should import cleanly.

Files are here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FNPX-6FdaOX2JSVjRYTU45QU0/view

So, all we need to get started is some Art. Don't worry about the size of the model, you're able to scale them up in-game. Boom.

It's not quit 3d poseable models just yet, but it's a quick and easy solution until I can find the time to actually gather models we can actually use and rig them.

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This is NOT supposed to be a final map (I made it on MS paint) but what do people think of the general placement of factions? Nomad factions like Lizards are assumed to just live in the wastes

>>50671315

I think maybe move the Yonas clans more down and to the right towards that peninsula. but thats just me. May i assume all the white is wastes?

So we gonna stick with the centaurs then? Or replace them with more generic undead and leave mounted as the lizardmens niche? Looking at the system i feel there really isn't enough to differentiate them significantly if they are both mounted. We could change centaurs out so that instead of mounted they were just long movement thought. That might work.

>>50671315
I would me the free city east as it seems that as a centre of trade it is too isolated at the moment

>>50671550

Maybe move the knights over towards where it is, have the bear clans in the uper right hand corner, and then place the merchants on the Peninsula by the inland sea?

>>50671315
I have an SVG of the blank version of this map if anyone wants it.

>>50671522

If we go with the idea of having the dragon on the field and the centaurs are just thralls for the most part then having them all be "mounted" is not that big of a deal.

Assuming equal costs assume you have a human force of 30 units split equally into infantry, cavalry, and range/support. If this army is going up against a dragon/centaur army the centaur player has a dragon and only 10 centaurs that are having to pull split duty between cavalry, protecting the dragon, and possibly another role.

The extra mobility is a necessary concession.

>>50671168

Yeah... If they're dwarves and not slugs, we should avoid hermaphroditism, the last thing we want to do is invoke the wrath of /d/.

>>50671195

I think having bearded slugs for the sake of uniqueness is autistic, and I think that nomad Dwarves are a better idea. All the same, the idea that the Dwarves have fundamentally changed over the centuries to survive the Wastes really speaks to me. It'd be interesting if they were 90% Dwarf, but had mutated over time to become 10% Slug.

They'd look like Dwarves but distinctively, changed, in a few subtle ways. Jus picture: Their skin is slightly yellowed or an almost sickly shade of green, and looks almost rubbery in consistency. Their body perspires with a strange, watery, almost mucuosy slime, and their eyes have a sort of yellowy film over them. Their movements are almost painstakingly precise and methodical, their eyes seem to catch everything going on around them, and something about them feels the slightest bit, strange.

Maybe I'm autistic, but it feels interesting to me. They're Dwarves all the same, but they're not, at all the same.

>>50671522

That makes sense, as they are they are literally their own mount. I feel that they should focus on melee, and buffing the shit-tier zombie units. Maybe a specialist unit that serves as a mediocre, cheaper caster that can do reasonable damage at medium range.

>>50671550

The Free City ISN'T a trade hub. There aren't supposed to BE trade hubs. This is a dead world. The Free City survives because its on the sea and they have a profound maritime tradition.

I feel like a lot of this lore might be moving away from the elegiac feel most of the first thread had in favor of high fantasy, and that would be a shame.

>>50671660
You don't need them to be part slug for any of that.

They look sickly because the cold sunlight is slowly killing their entire species. Every generation is weaker without the protection of spending most of their time underground in their formerly great cave cities.

They hide in the hair and beards of the giants not just for transport, but to hide from the sun that is killing them.

>>50671696

I feel like only SOME Centaurs should be melee oriented and count as mounted. These are cultists after all, support should be their main focus. The hyper-corrupted ones being melee oriented because they've been warped into more physically able forms would certainly track though.

Anyone have any good ideas for images we could use to make the mini's for the knights? And other factions of course.

>>50670812
Perhaps the division of centaurs serving under the dragons are the >1% of necromantic lich-like sycophants that still can think and reason, maybe 5% ones that are wight-like in manner (Have enough consciousness to hold a battle-line and employ tactics) that want to absorb the nodes and become the necro's, and the remaining 95% soulless, brainless husks that are cannon fodder to tie opponents down for the others to chop them up and feed to the big dragon.

This way, it's still undead legions with big draggo beatstick, without detracting too much from the lizards Mongol schtick.

Thoughts?

>>50671729

Since people liked some parts of the slug thing, like using mucuses as desert exposure protection why don't we just have the Dwarves RAISE slugs? Something bizarre and disgusting they've had to learn to live with because all their pride and heritage is gone.

>>50671754
Meant <1%. Stupid brain playing sleep-deprived tricks.

>>50671742

Ok, well what if we had like centaur subcommanders and then lots of normal undead? like you grab your dragon, you grab a few centaur cultists, and then you grab a bunch of skellies.

Ok, so here is what i am thinking

3 different levels of dragon, representing different levels of development and how fed they are.

4 types of empowered centaur lieutenants

8 different options for undead hordes (not mounted).

Should stat out or no?

Shoul

>>50671754

I follow where you're coming from, but for my money I would like it more if the undead units the Centaurs command aren't themselves centaurs. I like the idea that the fact that most of the planet's population is dead makes this dragon cult exceptionally dangerous because everywhere they go they have an army waiting. I also think it would make more sense thematically for those % to be switched, since when I think of cultists (or philosopher poets before their fall) I don't think Frontline Fighters, and thus it seems like the Wight types should be the minority.

>>50671762
That works a little better. The slugs are parasites that are too small for the giants to notice. The Dwarves are reliant on the slugs for food and mucus to protect them when they leave to protection of the giant's hair.

>>50671813
People already suggested having undead be a type of field hazard. Give the centaur mages the ability to raise more undead in the middle of falling enemy ranks or take control of the mindless units already on the field.

That way centaurs are still a low count strong force but can supplement their forces with the fallen on the field.

>>50671790

I feel like 8 undead is too many. The undead should be the fodder in this army not the focus, and when you get to 8 unit types you're kind of demanding more of the focus be there.

What if we swap that? Make it 2 types of Dragon. One Superbeast, one babbie. The Babbie is a mostly-centaur army, so we make 8 types of centaur from basic troop up to Elite Catsers. The Superbeast you're probably only taking a couple Centaurs because he's why you have the 4 cheap garbage undead horde options. Does that sound workable?

>>50671849
There is actually spells such as Summon Warrior and other necromantic abilities in the game. so that works.

>>50671865

Eh, if it's what you guys want i'll do it. Should work out and it makes sense to give them some options in game play. Give me a minute to play with the stats.

>>50671790
>>50671813
>>50671790

I like these trains of thought. Perhaps in the past, the centaurs weren't nearly as numerous as the others. When the dragons came from wherever they came from, the majority of the centaurs were wiped out to slake the initial hunger of the dragons. The majority of those left were either those who could fight to defend themselves, or smart enough to avoid the slaughter. If they are less numerous, it would make sense for them to strictly be the commanders and lieutenants. Plus, in the minds of those who can still think through a sentence, if their intellect, cunning and power couldn't save themselves, what hope would the others have? Why not accept your scaly, flying, city-devouring masters that can bring back the dead?

>>50671872

yeah i am planning to use that for one of the centaur lieutenant options powers. Its expensive at 25 points though.

I think that the Remnant Sorcerors should be called the Sorcerous Conclave, as that fits their communist ideology better. Apart from the Golems, they should be able to field communist mutant levies, made up of Humans they've captured and/or indoctrinated into the Conclave, and "improved" using blasphemous life-twisting sorcery.

Their mutant levies should be more durable and have a higher morale than standard peasant levies, but be twice as expensive in cost, reflecting that the mutants are willing to die for the collective, and that their bodies have been twisted to go far beyond their natural limits, but that they are few in number.

Their mutant levies are equipped with one of three weapons, warhammers, spears, or longbows, and the only variation should be based on experience, with the higher tiers being more powerful and expensive than their predecessors, reflecting that the Conclave isn't technologically advanced or as versatile as the other factions. I feel that Mutant peasant militia levies would spice up the Sorcerors, and keep their army from being a homogenous mass of Golems.

Mutant levy tier proposal:

Conscripts
Veterans
Elite
Vanguard

>>50671707
Lore ideas for the Free City;

>Whaling traditions?
Provides lots of food and oil to run the lights and candles. Could also provide conflict as the whales are getting less numerous due to Bear nature-fuckery/Dem dirty dragons eating anything bigger than a dolphin.

>Fishing?
Living off nature's bounty for centuries could have led to potential for over-fishing and ever-expanding fishing fleets which ties into

>Mariners?
Have to have a nautical tradition to protect the fishing trawlers from piracy due to the Visamti dogs claiming these are "their" waters. Maybe the reason militia troops are garbo comparatively is because they consist of cast-offs, or ones who couldn't make the grade/ had chronic seasickness.

Thoughts?

Ok, So there's something that's been bugging me:

Named Characters.

We don't have any, other than the Archon. Since this is a Your Guys system I want to shy away from *Limiting things to Canon,* but I like the idea of there being at least one major character among each faction and minor faction that virtually everyone has heard the name of.

>>50671997
I like it . So far they're the least interesting so any of that is welcome and cool

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>>50672052
Pic related for Centaurs

>>50672052
Well, the Bears could have the Eldest Matriarch of the Confederation. Mother of the Yonas, and Guide to the Everlasting Forest? She who follows the march of the stars and Defender of the True Glades?

(Kinda just spitballing titles/archetypes that might spring forth ideas.)

>>50672052
The grand master of the Zelthen Knights has a name. Marrus Zietford.

Visamt has Archon Kerallian and ArchMagus Maximarian

Restavia has King Barrick Ironjaw

Dwarves have a dead king named Grim Hardurm

Yorsa and Lizards have named characters of no significance.

Based off that I would say that people who still need names are:

>The great gr... granddaughter of the Archon

>Some Yorsa leaders

>Some lizard leaders

>Potentially some more Zelthen followers

>An actually living dwarf/giant leader

>A Consul for the free city

>Some leader for the sorcerors

And I don't know who would be able to have a name among the Dragons/centaurs. Maybe an important dragon or the leader of the centaur slaves

>>50672052
>>50672092
>>50672098
>>50672104

Oh, and I'd like to define how canon works right now:

We're doing this Eberron style, as in there is a timeline going up to the present, but beyond that the world is what you make of it.

All pieces of Writefaggotry are considered "side-canon" and only hold any bearing on the core setting if players choose to let it be so.

We're not going to to simultaneously screw up the game AND the setting because of the story, unlike Forgotten Realms and 40k

>>50671916
I think this could work and adds stuff to one of the less developped factions. Keep in mind that the knights are supposedly 'mutants' but the mutants used by the sorcerers are moreso just normal people who have been twisted.

>>50671916

This seems legit. I like the name Sorcerous Conclave, it rolls off of the tongue quite nicely.

>>50671997

I like the idea that they depend on Whaling and Fishing to survive, combined with the city's rampant crime and stubborn refusal to break against all odds, they're shaping up to be a badass faction in their own right. What if they had Pre-Renniassance Russian/Feudal-Era Japanese, (minus weaboo samurai and a feudal governmental structure) ascetic, architecture, culture, and influences on to of their tradition of crime and living off of the sea

>>50672142

Posted this, and forgot this, <?> at the end of the paragraph.

>>50672123
The obvious solution is no canon named characters are playable. Allows for fluff without breaking the tabletop. There is no reason for a faction leader to be in frontline or skirmish combat anyways.

One possible exception, if the dragons are partially ethereal maybe "killing" them just dissipates them for a bit until they consume enough life force to become corporeal again.

>>50672142
I like that idea for the Free City a lot. Brings on some very rustic and cozy images in my head of what their ports would look like. Imagine guards wandering the streets in big puffy gambiesons, their heads barely poking out as they stroll by a merchant selling blubber candy to a shady looking pimp.

>>50672134

The Preservers of Zelthen's Light have been blessed by Zelthen, their mutations are natural and vaguely angelic in nature. The Sorcerous Conclave mutants have been twisted, and broken by Sorcerous witchcraft and Communist brainwashing into something unnatural, and terrifyingly effective.

>>50672104
FACTION LEADERS
Zelthen: Grand Master Marrus Zietford

Visamt: Archon Kerallian and his chief adviser, Arch-Magus Maximarian

Yona: Meanda, Mother of the Yonas

Lizardfolk: Great Khan Gerix Bloodscale

The Inverse(?): KLAMUTRON THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS (?) and Hooflord Krugo

Restavia: King Barrick Ironjaw and his adviser, Chief Engineer Willem Gerstander

Dwarves/Giants: Leadership split between the leader of the Giants, Vontick, the Captain of the Dwarves, Kloniv Boneshaker, and the Grand Cleric of the Dwarves, Margot Goldhammer

Berustia: Consul Pieter the Patient

Sorcerors conclave: Magister Loen

>>50671889

"Where did they come from?" Is this question serious? HA! Does this question of "Where," consume you?

The question was "Why," for us. It was always "Why?" It had been "Why," since the first time we looked up from the meadows toward the stars. Under our trees and across our plains and on the banks of our rivers we asked "Why?" of everything. And when the Antithesis came, we asked "Why," again. We thought it would help us to learn their motives, their drives, their reasons.

They taught us something else entirely.

You ask "Where," the Antithesis comes from? The Demon Realm? The Afterlife? Beyond the stars? The dark hearts of man and beast? You ask because you believe finding the answer to "Where," will change something, as we believed the answer to "Why," would.

One day the Antithesis will give you an answer to your question. On that day... you will laugh too.

-Final Words of Scilantia, Coven Mistress. Execution NOT to be commuted. Year of the End 681.

>>50672123
>>50672167

Both of these are good points. Too many good settings are ruined by shittily-written characters, and besides, would YOU expect the Archon to be in the frontlines or commanding a siege? Please, that's what the 3648th-in-line to the throne is for.

>>50672181
Another thought is that the ships in port run the gamut from wrecks held together with pitch and prayers, to ornate junks covered in garish paints as they haul up nets full of the oceans bounty, to sleek, low frigates that patrol the waters to sink and loot the Visamti barges, and galleons to persuade them that fighting back is a bad idea.

>>50672167
>>50672302

Yeah, my main point was that having a game dependent on having a setting with continuous conflict and trying to advance the story in such a world does not tend to go well in the long run. That being said I hope our writers have a blast with this setting. I know I am.

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>>50672288

>>50672098
>>50672277

Original Bear Guy here, I didn't want the Bears to have any kind of "faction leader." Obviously logic dictates that if every clan came together there would be one who shook out as being above all the others, but they would never be close enough to each other to get EVERYONE together. They're technically in a confederation, but in practice they're more or less entirely self-contained and there's no centralized leadership.

That way you can have as many clans as you like and make up whatever characters and clan identities as you like, kind of like custom Spess Mahrine chapters.

>>50671889
>>50671865

Ok hows this for the dragons army statline. If you don't like it explain why and we can work on it.

Elder wyrm 253 Dragon armor, Dragon fire, Undead, gargantuan, flying, terror, incorporeal q2 c5

Dragon 193 Dragon Armor (MI,P), Dragon Fire (P), Flying, Huge, Incorporeal (P), Undead q2 c4

Fledgling 150 Big, Dragon Armor (MI,P), Dragon Fire (P), Flying, Incorporeal (P), Undead q3 c4

Baseline Centaur 56 Big, Mounted, Trample (P), Undead q4 c3

Scale hide centaur 65 Big, Hard Hide, Mounted, Trample (P), Undead q4 c3

Four armed 71 centaur Big, Double Strike (P,W), Mounted, Trample (P), Undead q4 c3

Eldritch centaur 78 Big, Mounted, Trample (P), Undead , Terror (P) q4 c3

Initiate centaur 72 Big, Mounted, Spell-caster (P), Trample (P), Undead
Spell: Slowdown

Battle-mage centaur 82 Big, Mounted, Spell-caster (P), Trample (P), Undead
Spell: Fireball

Warlock Centaur 98 Big, Mounted, Spell-caster (P), Trample (P), Undead
Spell: Fireball Spell: Wall of Worms q3 c1

Necromancer Centaur 104 Big, Mounted, Spell-caster (P), Trample (P), Undead
Spell: Summon Warrior(P) q3 c1

Basic undead 12 Rabble, Undead q4 c2

Slightly better undead 20 q4 c3 Rabble Undead

Ghouls 24 Greedy, Undead q4 c3

Wights 29 Greedy, Rotting Touch, Undead q4 c3

>>50672429
Yeah I get that and agree that should be the focus but among the confederation there must be atleast one bear mama who is the oldest and obviously wisest. Not necessarily a leader but a spiritual guide.

>>50672433
That's decent. What still needs to be done? By my reckoning we have the Free City, Dwarves, Restavia, Visamt and Bears left?

>>50672429
The Spess Mahrine style of leadership via clans, blow-off-the-others-until-you-have-to-band-up works pretty good for me. The titles I was tossing out don't have to be all on one person. They could just be typical epithets a clan would give to their chieftain. They might have a council of the master druids/ kingsmoot type thing where it's strictly ceremonial leadership, and mainly there to keep everyone on track to feed the nodes to get to the next world.

>>50672288
As the guy who wrote up the "Why?" stuff, I really dig this write-up. It really drives home that the centaurs used-to-be-kangz-n-shiet, and now are more concerned with nihilism and entropy over all.

>>50672516

Bears next i suppose. The others were minor factions as i recall. If only decent what could stand improvement? In your opinion?

>>50672429
For the bears I was thinking of something like a Sly Marbo Character. A living legend of sorts that different factions tell stories about. Some told as if he were the hero, others as if he were the terror in the night come to eat young hatchlings that wander too far from the lizardmen camps.

>>50672534
Visamt is also a major faction. I didn't mean decent as 'mediocre' I meant MAD DECENT SENPAI ONE HUNDRED EMOJI

>>50672288
I've been thinking, who executed her and WHY don't they want us to know about it.

>>50672548

Ah. I see. I usually see that word used negatively.

Gonna do Bears and then Visamt next. Make requests and suggestions anons. How do we want them to work, generally speaking.

>>50672433

ah bugger, missed some text. the initiate and the battle mage are both also q3 c1

>>50672574
Bears should be durable and rely on nature magic that can alter the environment to their advantage. They should probably be in low in numbers since nothing about their lore implies that they're numerous.

Visamt should have elite spellcasters who can summon demons supplemented by solid cavalry and expendable infantry

>>50671916

The whole Old Wizards Communist Nation faction has been bugging me because I really don't feel like it fits the setting, but I've been chewing on it for a while and I had an idea: What if all the wizards are dead?

Not undead mind you, I'm talking like they're Jedi Holocrons, magically preserved personalities recorded onto crystals or imprinted onto local leylines where they built their towers or some such thing.

They actually are totally unaware of the world in its current state of near-oblivion because they can't input any new information, since they were "born," the day the Wizard copied himself. They go about each day as if it was just another humdrum day in the old kingdom. However, they can provide answers to questions or requests based on the totality of their knowledge. They are also not able to perfectly simulate ethics and morality, which is why the answer to "How can I survive in this frozen wasteland Master Wizard?" was eventually met with mutation magic.

The wizards center of power is the ruined half-buried remains of a massive university city, and they treat their followers as students, staff and visitors rather than subjects. The pseudo-communist system that has arisen was the end result of a logical analysis of all the requests they were given by those trying to survive under their protection: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," was the only way they could see to all the things required for survival.

Agriculture is of course impossible, so the most common site in their lands are of course food lines. Luckily, since they do not have bodies, the conservation of energy problem created by conjuring food has been solved up to a certain population density! The Faculty Provides.

What do you think?

>>50672652

Alright. I can work with that. Give me just a minute. Hope you all don't mind me doing this.

>>50672548
The problem with Visamti is that it's dependant on Demon Magic, which is only going to be available when the next supplement releases. The kickstarter for it just finished funding, and the creator is giving out the backer rewards(among which was the PDF), so it's only a short manner of time before we see the PDF officially released.

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>>50672654
Hahaha that's genius. I think the wizards should look and feel like real people but fundamentally be nothing more than illusions. They're the closest thing to the old ways you've got (other than Berustia) and they aren't even real people.

Well done

>>50672695
Better to wait to deploy them then. Too bad since I find them one of the most interesting factions. They could have a setting all to their own and still not feel boring

>>50672654
Interesting. It's a good breath of fresh air on the standard Magiocracy types in settings. Long dead benevolent-ish rulers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around this whole "Land shriveling into dust" malarkey.

I could also see a one-sided rivalry between them and the Restavians, because they stand as an example of the decadence and dead-ends that magic leads to. Look upon the uselessness of the wizards. People starving, and so blind they can't even see the lizards or the bears wading through the lands they used to call home. They might also view them as a source for raw materials, and treatises on ways to improve technologies.
The wizards would in turn probably just view them as good citizens, a little odd, but citizens none-the-less. Maybe they could view the plundering of their towers by enterprising tech-soldiers as a treason? After all, who could gain from robbing the mighty Empire of it's sources of council, and the minds of their best and brightest?

>>50672542

One of the important bits of Bear Lore is the wandering Ranger/Warrior males, and it was mentioned that bear culture has been changing now that their importance/necessity to civilization's survival is going up. I could totally see young lady cubs gathering around campfires to whisper forbidden stories of the powerful-yet-terrifying wanderers whom are barely more than whispered legends to them.

Just keep in mind the average Bear citizen doesn't know the world is ending around them. The Matriarchs are hiding it to maintain order and only the military, druids and leaders know. So any stories about Cool Older Gentleman Bear Heroes would not feature discussion of the Wasteland specifically.

>>50672487

If there is gonna be a "Momma Bear," so to speak, she absolutely should not have any special title or rank in bear society at least. A unique epithet to indicate her status/character, sure. Her clan can have an elevated status among others because of her superior leadership, sure, so when you say "Matriarch _______, "The Nickname," of Clan ______," it carries a sense of weight. Just nothing official.

Sort of like how Eldrad Ulthran Farseer of Ulthwe immediately tells you this dude matters even though there's actually nothing special about the name objectively.

Alright, how is this for bears?

Basic bear 50 Big Tough q4 c3

Iron paw 60 Big Tough Hammering Blow q4 c3

Veteran 66 Big Tough (P) q3 c3

Vanguard 65 Big Long Move Tough (P) q4 c3

Skirmisher 53 Big Tough Javelin q4 c3

Elite Skirmisher 60 Big Tough Dead Shot Javelin q4 c3
Tree whisperer 68 Big Tough Spell-caster Spell: Wall of wood q3 c2

Earth Shaper 80 Big Tough Spell-caster Spell: Alter Terrain q3 c2

Earth Shaker 86 Big Tough Spell-caster Spell: Tremor q3 c2

Shaman 92 Big Tough Healer Spell-caster Spell: Courage q3 c2

Cloud gatherer 92 Big Tough Spell-caster Spell: Mist Noxious cloud q3 c2

Storm caller 104 Big Tough Spell-caster Spell: Hailstorm Lightning q3 c2

Wandering Male 62 Big Tough Savage q4 c4

Experienced Wanderer 82 Big Tough Savage q3 q4

Lord of the Wilds 110 Big Tough Savage Lead from the Front q3 c4

>>50673038
These are really good.

>>50673079

Thank you.

Alright, we've stated out for of the main races. We're gonna have to wait a bit for the visamti, but so far we have

The Knights

>>50669130

The Lizards

>>50669430
>>50669642

The Dragons

>>50672433
>>50672620

and the Bears

>>50673038

So, does anyone have any objections to these? Or are we gonna go with these?

>>50673148

Its a great baseline for us to iterate on, and totally functional as is to start playing games. Well done.

>>50673148
I say we go with those. I'm excited to play the knights.

>>50673195

Thank you. I'm kinda burned out now, but i think it was worth it.

>>50673198

Same. I wanna mix lance and the ranged one myself. Even thought up a list already.

Now we just need to get some models and get some beta testing going....

>>50673038

Looks alright to me. Would offer to help stat, but I'm shit at it. Much better at hucking out ideas to help shape settings and factions.

If your looking at stuff for the militias of the Free City, it could be gambesons and mail, with brigandines and halberds/pikes for the linemen, and crossbowmen for the ranged support.

>Thoughts on wasteland hazards
Wizard Holocrons that have degraded to error-prone bundles of corrupted data, leading a small pack of fighty golems against enemies of the empire?

>>50673148
I was thinking of some names to help add a bit of flavour for the knights.

Dextrous knights could be the Order of the Fencers, or Basilard, or other names for knives. Could be rapierists/swordy guys with daggers in off-hands or bucklers.

Shooty knights could be the Order of Marksmen, or Sharpshooters. Spyglass? Something that connotates skill at marksmanship anyways.

Alright, post your lists boys lets talk about who we wanna play and how we would do it. I'll go first. Knights

Order of the lance

Lord Marshal 113
Knights x 3 180

Order of ? (the longs sight one. we really need to get names assigned to these)

Knight Aspirants x 3 99

Putting me at 392 points.

>>50673343

Yeah we really need to flavour them a bit. Names are needed. I really like The Order of Zelthen's Aegis as a name, but i feel like lance is kinda weak, and we need something for the other two as well. There was something in the previous thread if i recall correctly, but i do not remember what it was.

>>50673343

Order of the Crosshair?

The first two named orders were Justicars and Pathfinders, so "Order Of," isn't necessary if you want something more on point. The Flintlocks? The Overwatch? The Blackpowders? The Firearms?

>>50673519

What if we made the superhuman reflex ones Justicars then? Pathfinders could work with the running ones i suppose, although personally i feel like that isnt the best name for a group of posthuman badass knights, but that's just me.

>>50673537

The Pathfinders are the order that protects the roads between the various Cathedrals, Fortresses and Citadels which project the divine Anti-Wasteland fields. They have the hardest job of all the Zeltrans Knights because they have to keep the most vulnerable and yet most important part of their lands safe for travelers or their entire logistical system and ability to move troops to needed fronts could fall apart. This is why they were supposed to be the most skilled and powerful of all the order's knights, since their job was objectively the most important and most difficult.

If you can think of a better name feel free. I picked the name because I liked conveying the idea that even the most well-traveled roads in this world aren't even close to safe, secure or intact, so the knights that protect them are forever "pathfinding."

>>50673385
I'm gonna go with the Lizardy ones.

A. Lord x 1 :90
A. Elite x 2 : 104

Total: 194

C Elite x 2: 96
Calvary x 3: 108

Total: 204

Altogether 398. Maybe knock some of the Elite Calvary down to normies if I want to free up more points for beefing up the shooting or more riders. I'd mainly run the archers for picking off high-value, while the riders act a screen and counter-charges.

>>50673639

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I do love the fluff and reasoning behind it, and there is nothing wrong with it persee. I would gladly field pathfinders. It's just if we have some that are orders and some that are not it throws off the naming scheme. Maybe have pathfinders be their colloquial name, or a name they use to describe what they do, and have an official order name as well? I mean I don't wanna shit on your idea, I'm just spit balling here.

>>50673670

Sweet list, and a good strategy. My basic idea was charge them while the archers provided cover. Not very sophisticated I know, but there is just something about the mental image of 4 posthuman knights charging across the field and slamming into the enemy that appeals to me.

>>50673639
>>50673537
>>50673519
>>50673411
The ones I'm kinda fond of are:

>Defenders
Aegis does it for me. Brings up the images of Tower shields and polearms, or plate and greatswords/pollaxes.

>Runners/Lancers
Pathfinders works quite good. Wayseekers might work, as does Rangers, Scouts or Foresters. Anything that seems more wilderness orientated.

>Ranged
Crosshairs kind of brings to mind rifle and guns. Maybe Javelins, Longarms, or such. Always had trouble with coming up with names for Shooty folks that aren't cringy.

>Reflex
Justicars works for me. Not that huge fortress feel like Aegis, but still brings to mind skilled Men-at-arms.

>>50673729
Thanks. Wanted to set one up similar in point value to yours, but getting more of that sweet numbers fun. I kinda see the Bears being a nuisance due to clogging up the field with brambles, the gaps filled with blobs of bear fat, and them acting as a screen to be hard shooting that the useful ones. For them, probably go more numbers of shooty, and heavier cav's to cut their way through.

The Draggo's would kinda make me dump more for cav's to flank round the tarpits, and chop up some centaurs. Shooty ain't probably all too hot against Incorporal beatsticks and undead blobs.

>>50673692

Don't worry at all, I didn't take offense. I was just laying out the lore I'd originally written in case you missed it or something.

I only brought up that the first two were lacking in "Order of," because that's how it was, and its not like we're in a position at this point where we couldn't swap the names of the ones that don't match.

That being said, I kind of like the idea that they have an official name and a colloquial nickname. Reminds me of Wheel Of Time. The Children of the Light were referred to derisively as Whitecloaks by people, and within their own ranks they referred to their Inquisitors, the Hand of the Light, as Questioneers in order to insult them.

In this case, the fact that the people whom the Knights protect fear them so much is an important element of the faction fluff, so them having a nickname for one of the orders would be significant. Clearly they refer to the the Knights of the Order of Heavenly Gavel as "Justicars," and the Knights of the Order of the Golden Road as "Pathfinders," for a reason.

Certainly of all the Knightly orders those two are the ones a normal man is most likely to be forced to interact with in the course of his life. For example, The Divine Gavel handles the administration of all laws and settle all disputes within their lands, leaving no necessity for civilian courts or magistrates. They also swear daily oaths to the Mayors of each township regarding their role as protectors should their brothers bring harm to the people and redressors should the order enact any tyranny against the common man. But they are no less off-putting or inhuman than any other knight. No more comfortable to speak too as their superhuman reflexes and senses give them an eerie cat-like bearing, no less emotionless thanks to their combat drugs and training. Is Justicar a term of endearment or spite?

(consider that rhetorical or answer it legitimately, I have a habit of slipping in and out of "lore mode,")

>>50673758

>brings to mind rifles and guns

I thought it was explicit that the knights used guns as the one technology they salvaged from the fallen kingdom. I had been imagining them with Nanoha-esque gun-polearms, sniper weapons that look like jousting lances and six-shooter gauntlets loaded with shotgun cartridges as secondary close combat weapons in case they lose their shields. Maybe bucklers with hidden short-range armor-piercing rounds.

Obviously nothing near the Remnants tech, but kind of a support thing.

>>50674140
we really need to get the Hammer and Forge Supplement:

-Guns and firearms.
-Dwarves
-Rune Magic/weapons
-Feral Traits for beserkers/beasts.

What is this?

>>50674178
You know how on occasion we have a "Let's create a setting" thread that usually goes nowhere? This is what happens when the resulting product is actually pretty good, lore is made, and we actually manage to find a system that runs the setting well.

It's also a Wargame that I'm more invested in than anything I've actually spent minis for.

>>50674066
I rather enjoy this type of thinking on the Knights. Order of the Such-and-Such is the names they use for themselves, and that you use when you think they're going to be listening to you. Most knightly orders (Or ones that consider themselves as such) in history had flowery, or symbolic names.

Perhaps Order of the Clear Skies for the shooty ones? You generally want good weather for any kind of shooting, especially with bows or firearms since the damp has a bad effect on powder and bow-strings. Could lead to terms like "Clear-eyes," or "Sunbeams," to make fun of that.

The defensive orders could be Orders of the (Metal) Wall, or Orders of the Shining Guard, various forms of protective natures. Nicknames could be "Bulwarks" if your nice, or "Cliffs" as in built-like-a if your feeling bitter.

Man I have way too much fun thinking of derisive terms for factions.

If the knights are using guns then a possible short name for the shoots ones could musketeers

>>50674240

I really like the fact that Crosshair has the word Cross in it and want to use it somehow for our divine snipers, I just can't think of a good name that doesn't make the fact that its a CrossHAIR unintuitive.

Order of the Distant Cross? Order of the Watchful Cross?

Oooh, Order of the Unerring Cross?

Maximum FPS Sperg option: Order of the Iron Sights

>>50673148
For the Lizards, I was kind of thinking their names for the different types should speak a bit towards hunting names for the archers, and spearmanship or lancemanship ones for the cav's. The current names for the monks are solid, but I feel the novice should be renamed to as Initiates desu.

For the Archers perhaps:
Huntmaster for the Lord
Hunter for the Retainers
Trailblazer for the Elites
Guide for the Normies and
Tracker for the Novices.

For the Cav's:
Khan for the Lord
Horselord for the Retainers
Vanguards for the Elites
Lancers for the Normies and
Riders for the Novices.

Thoughts?

>>50674351
Order of the Unerring Cross sounds like a good one. Brings to mind the difficulties of picking off a hard target, and their determination to avoid falling into the ways that led the world into the way it is. Plus trying to show the way to be TRUE marksmen and not cowards like the Amber scum who retreat after loosing or the Vishamtis who use demonic forces to guide their bolts. Unwavering Cross might work too.

Naturally, it lends itself to terms like the 'Unnerving Cross', or if one is a particularily bad shot, 'Cross-eyes'.

>>50674355

I like how the archer thing starts off with Tracker and Guide, but I feel like the "hunting," schtick is a little too obvious, especially since it seems like every lizard race in fiction are Hunters. I'd want to lean a bit more onto the the seeker thing than the hunter thing.

ALSO, one of my favorite things about the Lizardman is their goal being that once they KILL ALL HUMANS their entire race will become gods and they can remake the world. I feel like their Lord ranks should reflect that.

For the archers I would start with Guide. Then move up to Wayfinder. Elite rank is Pioneer. For the retainer rank, lets use Keshik, since that was the Monoglian term for their actual Horse Archers.

For the Cavalry, keep Riders and Lancers, then cut Vanguards and make Horselord the Elite rank. Khan becomes the Retainer rank.

In actual Mongolian mythology, a lot of emphasis is put on the sky since that's what you're looking at when you ride around the steppes, and I think its reasonable to have a thematic link to the earth for the guys NOT on horses. So I say make the Cav Lord rank be "Celestial," and the Archer Lord rank be "Primordial." This has an implication that be becoming such a skilled warrior and killer of humans, you are coming very near that promised godhood. I think we can rework the Monk ranks slightly to come into line with this as well, although I think they're close to the sentiment.

Fluff-wise, I would refer to the the Tribe's Chieftan as the Chingiss, meaning Truth (theorized origin of the Ghengis title). This fits with the theme that they're leading their people on a path of divinity via a certain absolute path, ie KILL ALL HUMANS. There's no need for a Shaman or anything since their religion seems to be Gnostic in nature and the monks are the ones with all the enlightenment to preach.

Also, the mongolian religion referred to their gods as Tengri, so log that away.

>>50674602
You know, this is WAY better than what I thought. I like the tactics of playing the Lizards, but the Lore kind of just whooshed right on over my head. Mainly just wanted to start off the discussion.

Regarding the Archers, I like the progression of the Way of the Seeker. Guides find the path, Wayfinders teach others how to find it, Pioneers create the paths, Keshiks defend it and Primordials BECOME the path.

For the Cavalry, it could be known as the Way of the Ride, AKA those who move along the paths. Riders first must learn to ride, Lancers then must learn how to fight on a mount, the Horselords must learn how to be one with your mount, Khans bring the band into one being, and the Celestial brings the bands into the Horde.

Maybe for the monks, it's something like the way of the Horizons? After all, they aren't the ones becoming the sky or the earth, but are the ones that are inbetween. Heights could be a factor, because as you climb higher on the mountain/steppes/hills, the horizon keeps becoming wider, until it goes from a straight line into a curve. Maybe climbers turning into hills, then plateaus, and then the peak at the top?

Loving the Mongolian influences, but I have little knowledge of that culture, and was drawing more from what I knew of the Great Plains natives.

>>50674735

Nothing wrong with mixing and matching or letting something from another culture seep in, we don't want a 1-to-1 cultural transplant here after all. I mean, we're already part way there, not like Mongols had Monasteries full of kungfu badasses. I actually thought Dalai might be a good rank for the "guy below the near-god," rank. Its not a mongolian word, but it SOUNDS on point, right in there with Khan and Keshik other than the fact that it doesn't start with K. Kalai maybe?

Also, change Horselord to Horsemaster, because I like the way Horsemaster sounds after watching that one scene from Return Of The King on youtube today, and because Lord isn't a word that should be near this society.

Also lore tidbit idea: Horses have been extinct since the earliest days of the End, and in the X Centuries since then Horse has passed into Lizardman vernacular as a generic term for any beast used as a mount. Possibly too confusing, but doesn't lock us into "Horse," as super important culturally, and lets us keep using Horsemaster.

RIP Christopher Lee.

>>50674833
The lore tidbit seems like a good match for them. There MIGHT be horses in the more un-affected lands, but their term horse could mean basically anything with four hooves, fur, and mammalian. Like how lizard could mean geckos, iguanas, or gila monsters.

So, the procession for the calvary units would be Rider, Lancer, Horsemaster, Khan and Celestial?

For the monks, I'm not too happy with the mountain analogy anymore. Perhaps they are the Oasis's that provide understanding and a safe place to rest? It could be Dowsers to find such a place, Monks to contemplate it, Enlightened Ones who understand it, Dalais who bring others into understanding, and Wellsprings who produce the understanding for the benefit of all. Mainly thought it up as watering holes and oasis's are much more important to nomads riding over the endless plains, wastelands, and steppes.

>>50674987
Shit, meant Kalai's instead of Dalai's. Dalai brings too much Tibetan mountainside rather than waterhole in flatland.

>>50674987

Way back when Lizardmen were first suggested, I actually wanted one of their schticks to be "They aggressively seek and protect all the water." I kept thinking of Lady Vashjj's speech from WoW about how Water is one of the most precious resources on Outland now that its a blown up hunk of rock in space, but I never got around to suggesting it because everyone got hype about Lizard Mongols.

Outsiders think that Lizard monasteries are built in completely arbitrary places out in the wastes, but in fact every one is secretly directly on top of an underground source of Fresh Water. The monks go to VERY extreme lengths to hide this fact from other races, especially if one is about to fall to attack. The reason the monks began to practice martial arts instead of more passive forms of meditation and study was to hone their bodies so they could do the necessary manual labor to reach this precious liquid life no matter where it was or how deep it was buried.

I'm not totally sold on Wellspring for the God Rank. I like the symbolism, but the sound of the word is awfully different from Celestial and Primordial. I'm not saying it HAS to end in ial, I'm just sayin'

Interesting note from google: one of the Mongolian creation myths says that in the beginning there was nothing in the world but water. I can work with that for sure.

>>50675177
Bitching. I really dig the way this train of thought is going. Perhaps Terrestrial or Subterrestrial would be more appropriate? It gets that tasty same word ending, and means of the earth. It could work into a theology where the most enlightened became Terrestrials who brought forth the land from the water, the most cunning hunters became the Primordials who created life on land, and the greatest leaders of bands became the Celestials who provide the sources of guidance and power.

It could also tie into the fact that the humans enslaved the gods and buried the water, turned the plains into the wastelands, and hid inside buildings where the skies were covered and cannot show the wisdom from above. As such, it is RIGHT to kill the humans, and free the gods lurking within all Lizardkind to their rightful places. We WILL free the water from the depths of the earth. We WILL bring back the grasslands full of game, and we WILL tear down the houses of stone and wood to expose all to the wisdom of the sky.

Could give them a direct causus belli with most other people, and a reason to have exterminated the dwarves. After all, they willfully seek to hide from the sun and stars, poisoned the mountain rivers with their industry, and turn their backs on the freedom of the plains in favour of stagnation.

>>50672654

Brilliant.

Alright, so for names we have

The Order of Zelthan's Aegis

The Order of the Golden Path "Pathfinders"

The Order of the Heavenly Gavel "Justicars"

The Order of the Unerring Cross
as the order names. Do we wanna change the names of any of the ranks. I think leaving knights and Knight aspirants the same across each order is good, but i feel like the veterans and leaders should have different names depending on the order. Different traditions and all that you know?

and for lizards we have

Guide-Wayfinder-Pioneeer-Keshik-Primordial

Riders-Lancers-Horselord-Khan-Celestial

to more closely follow their fluff.

We gonna make any name changes for Bears of Dragons?

>>50676732

I think Lord Marshal works well for the Aegis. Maybe Lord Magistrate or Lord Arbitrator for the Gavel. Lord Conductor for the Pathfinders and Lord Executioner for the Cross.

Have Justicar veterans as Trueblades and Pathfinder veterans as Trailblazers. Leave Cross Elites as Snipers i suppose unless someone has something better. Have Aegis Elites as Sentinels.

Sound alright?

>>50676826
Since it seems that the names follow 'word+word' formula, why not sharpshooters for the Cross Elites? Sniper is too... plain, compared to the other orders' elites. Trueblades, Trailblazers, Sharpshooters, Sentinels.

Also this setting is way too awesome. Mind if I suggest that the Giants wear armor that is also designed as a fortress for the Dwarves?
So you can see something covered in architecture and ramparts, roughly humanoid-shaped, teeming with Dwarves - that's a Giant alright! Shadow of the Colossus, but with tons of slime-spewing Dwarves.

Another idea would be for Dwarven Slime (which might actually be slug-produced) to be versatile in use. The Dwarves use them not only to protect themselves from the harsh wasteland conditions, but also to stick to and move on the side of the Giant they live in. So to the other races they seem to walk on the side of the Giants' armor in defiance of gravity - while it's the slime that's keeping them sticking.

>>50677038

alright, thats pretty sweet. and your right sharpshooter it is.

Man, this feels like /tg/ back in the day. It's good to see that we can still create something new and exciting.

>>50677683

We can still get shit done. Lotta shit getting done right now it seems. Perhaps this is the beginning of /tg/'s renaissance after the dark age of shit posting.

Their any drawfriends in the thread who might be kind enough to do art we could use for mini's? Finding pictures of mongol lizardmen riding giant gazelles is proving difficult.

>>50678565
Which is an utter travesty

>>50675298
>>50676355

Perhaps something like Diluvial? It could relate to the idea of freeing the subterranean water, prophesying that it would come as a great flood from beneath the earth to sweep away the filth and squalor of humanity. The idea of a flood, especially in a steppe-based nomadic tribe living in a dying wasteland must be some kind of mythical impossible thing. How can there even BE that much water anywhere in the world?

It also fits with the idea of remaking the world upon godhood. They need to make a new ocean and start planting continents on it.

>>50677038

Now, I don't want to come across as dumping on anyone's ideas, but this post brought back a worry I expressed earlier, that the tone of the setting is moving away from eligiac and toward high fantasy. I like that you're thinking of Shadows of the collosus because that game is eligiac as fuck, but I feel like the dwarves having the resources and wherewithal to equip their giants with armor is a subtle betrayal of the "their entire way of life had died," idea because they're still doing smithing and stone carving. The original image was of a giant wandering aimlessly through the wastes with haggard and desperate refugees huddled in their beards or Sat in solemn contemplation of icy nothing on their shoulders. I had personally even imagined said giants desperately clutching ragged cloaks to try to protect themselves from sandstorms. Very bleak and tragic, as it should be because the dwarves are currently the only group in the lore with no plan to deal with The End (well, and the city state, but I have an idea for that). They are a living epitaph. I just don't know if turning their fellows in doom into fortress battleships is compatible with that. I mean, using magical slug mucus to walk around in a gravity defying manner is borderline WHIMSICAL. The slug thing is supposed to be a degradation, a total abandonment of their pride and manners and even notions of hygiene out of necessity, and it's got whimsy in there? It doesn't feel right.

I'm not advocating for grimdark here, I'm just saying we need to keep tone at the forefront of our thoughts.

>>50679560

I agree with this. The reason I'm here is the tone that unites the factions of the world. It reminds me very much of Dark Souls, and the name of the thread caught my eye.

But, at least in regards to giant armor, perhaps the dwarves carved some stone armor for them before their fall? That way they can still have pieces, and the refugee dwarves can struggle to maintain it.

Making the armor for them could also explain why the giants are willing to help the dwarves out.

>>50679784

I think maybe that compromise has some traction. The dwarves still tell their children tales of the great Masons who had the skill and strength of arm to tear down whole mountainsides and shape them into full suits of armor for the giants, for metal was anathema to their kind. For this protection, the Giants would protect the dwarves in kind, carrying the Last Generation into the unknown as their great halls became tombs.

Today only pieces remain. A broken breastplate, a single grieve, a fingerless gauntlet, a crumbling pauldron. The work of the dwarves stonecutters of old still protects them in battle, but every battle sees a little more of the dwarves history turned to dust.

What the dwarves don't tell their children is the armor should have never broken. The intricate patterns that adorn the rock were the most potent of magical runes, etched to make the stone armor eternal and unbreakable. But the power of the runes, like the dwarves spirit, was bound to their lands, to hearth and home, to the great mountain halls and the ancestors bones. All are gone, and so the power of the runes are gone. One more indignity to be born, one more achievement of their people snuffed out, one more dirge to sing.

>>50680115

perfect.

>>50680130

I like that idea of singing dirges now that I reread what I wrote. What if dwarves magic is bardic since their runes don't work anymore? The power of love and earth replaced by the power of grief and memory.

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>>50670525
>>50670812

Writefag here again. Still compiling notes for a lore document & hope to be satisfied enough to show it off. Still scrounging through this thread and last.

But while compiling tidbits, I was wondering: what do some of these races look like?

Preservers are all heavily armored knights/paladins.

Visamit seem inspired by the Roman Empire, but idk what the "typical" garb is like or the skin tone of the Visamit.

I'd assume the Berustia people are a hodge podge of generic medieval fantasy.

Then Restavia Remnant has a more steampunk/early tech edge to them. Idk if they'd all be wearing trenchcoats or big goggles--that's probably too much steampunk.

Now the ones I really want to ask about: Lizardfolk, Yonas, and the Eldritch Dragons. I'm asking these more for writing purposes, and just to ground their aesthetics.

1) What kind of lizard are the lizardmen based off of? Pic related from last thread seemed interesting. He looks pretty tall but that maybe due to his neck.

2) The last thread had some comic strips, cementing the Yonas referring to themselves as "this bear" instead of "I." What got me wondering was, are the Yonas just straight up bears who can stand and talk? Are they more like bear-human hybrid beastmen? If you see a Yona from afar, would you mistake it for a human wearing a pelt?

3) The Eldritch Dragons seem like they're the closest thing to a "main antagonist" group in the setting. The other factions hate these guys or at least don't like them. But what do they look like? Are they more Lovecraftian eldritch Old Ones, or more phantasm dragon, as the pics in the last thread showed? Do they choose to take on the form of dragons, or are they the restless spirits of dragons long dead? If they are Eldritch, would some people lose their minds looking at them?

>>50680205

I can tell you the Yonas are absolute Just Bears. They have an opposable thumb sort of on their claws, but they're nowhere close to dexterous. They can hold spears and whatnot but they'll never be swordsmen or invent complex machinery. They're mainly bipedal, though sometimes they go down on all fours. I figure they do wear clothing of some kind, robes in plant motifs and that sort of thing maybe. They also us armor crafted by druid magic from wood, though nothing like full plate or chain, just pieces. Probably decorate themselves with plant life, snake vines through their fur, wear moss and flowers on their heads, stuff like that.

For the lizards, I had always imagined them being quite thin and wirey types, certainly not bulky humanoid T-Rex saurian types. Since they ride gazelles this makes even more sense.

I had always imagined Berustia as more Renaissance Italy/Venice, with maybe some influence from Scandinavia and Japan in there if we go with a heavy Whaling focus as was suggested before, in terms of fashion design.

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>>50680205
Visamti were Byzantine, but I'm thinking we go for the more classical roman look, on the principle that it is pretty damn easy to find 3d roman soldier models for BB3D/TTS

Restavia should have a Final Fantasy 6-esque motif.

Lizardmen depend on how amphibious we make them. Are they Crocodile based, or Desert Lizards?

Yonas are literal bears with an extra opposable claw. That's it.

Eldritch dragons are like pic-related, except pale white, incorporeal, and their head can have any number of heads, eyes, jaws, and teeth.

>>50680377

Please tell me that is a model we can use. Please.

>>50680377

Dragons should have options for eyes and mouths all the way down. That's always a winner

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>>50680446
So, basically as much of a lovecraftian horrror as we can make it while still keeping it a dragon. Dumping relevant art now.

>>50680394
Unfortunately I've been unable to find a 3d model for it, but there are plenty of monster heads and chinese dragons we can mash together. until we get something we like.

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>>50680546

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>>50680561

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>>50680616

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>>50680632

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>>50680650
So, basically Draconic-Tyranid-Lovecraftian Horrors.

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>>50680667

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>>50680685

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>>50680718
That's it, but here's the great part: It is stupidly easy to find free 3d models of reptilian monster heads online, like pic-relaterd, and almost as easy to paste them on the head of a chinese dragon model ore some such.

In other words, once we gather the resources for it, it's actually quite easy to kit out your own personal army.

>>50680667
yup

>>50672288

>Writefaggotry in bound


"Why did they come?" she asked. To their depraved minds, the centaurs were already dead, gone from the world. They serve their masters now, enemy of Our Great Kin.

But We were once like them. Enslaved in chains. It was Our strength that brought Us to the wastes, to live free. Perhaps the centaurs will one day free themselves.

We ask, "where did the Antithesis come from?" because it DOES matter. Without knowledge We would die in the wastes. Without knowing that the gazelles like bonfruit grown on the riverside, We would never have tamed them. Knowledge is the foundation of power. We know the Yonas Clans never venture from their enclaves--thus We never fight on their turf where they have advantage. The Restavians use their metal turtles to fire on Us from afar, but if We get in close and surround them, the turtle is easily overturned.

We ask "where" so we may gain knowledge of weaknesses. We did this in Our enslavement--We will do so again in the wastes.We will continue this until Ascension.

-Thoughts of Temple Master Saskar Darkscale on the Final Words of Scilantia, etched upon the Remembrance Stone. May this temple stand forever after Our Ascension, lest Immortals Forget. Year of the End 682.

>>50681996

I love how all the pronouns are capitalized. Subtle but thematically strong.

>>50671292

A powerful place to start for 3d pose-able models is with an open source program called Make Human.

Also, since you are working a war game I will see about getting the online multiplayer up and running as soon as I can.

-bb3d dev (self identifying for clarity)

>>50682676

Thanks man. I'll take a look at that and try to mock something up for the knights.

>>50682676

Ok, so i just started messing with Make Human, and i've hit a bit of a snag. I was able to modell a person, complete with dynamic posing and the mutated inhuman proportions i thought appropriate for the knight, but this program does not appear to be able to render Armor or weapons. Any suggestions on what to do about that? I'm sorry to bother you, i'm very grateful for all you've done thus far, just trying to work things out.

>>50671292
>So, all we need to get started is some Art.
Artist for the OP of the fvgt here.
I'd like to get in on this.
I won't have real computer access until Thursday night, but I'd like to crank out as much 2d art as I can for y'all then.
I just need to know any physical descriptions of what you need for each unit and a general scale.
I haven't made tokens before.
I'll default to a realistic style over something more toony, if you agree that's appropriate.

>>50680335
>>50680205
1) For the lizards, I feel like desert lizards are more appropriate to the setting. Particularly lithe ones like horned lizards, or geckos. I read in the last thread that they were supposed to be mainly a ghostly or pale white to blend in with the sands, so perhaps the Ivory hordes? Could make sense in that they are pale like it, and brings to mind taking down massive animals like elephants or rhinos through cunning instead of raw strength. Might also lead to them prizing colourful items and dyes/paints if they are naturally colourless and live in wastelands.

2) The way bears are described works quite well or me. I feel more black or cinnamon bears instead of the wild wandering grizzlies/polars is more appropriate to the temperate boreal young forest vibe they have.

3) I much prefer that the Inverse are dragons mainly in the loosest sense of the term. The young ones might look a bit more closer to spikey-winged-flying-reptile, but are more unnatural to behold as they gain in size. After all, even the normal 'dragon' we think of already breaks physics laws, so one that seems to be barely there and still can split the earth with a swing of a path would definitely earn it's Terror trait.

>>50682959
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/clothes.html

That should help, but choices are limited. A better idea may be to pose the model, export it, then import armor from sites like Turbosquid or Yeggi, into free programs like Blender or MeshMixer and blend it in.

>>50683279
>path.
Meant paw, but now I can't help but think of one ripping up a road and smashing it into a line of battle to disrupt them.

>>50683359

thank you, looking now.

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>>50683106

These posts seem like the best place to start. The original pic for Eldritch Dragons was this.

>>50680377
>>50680335

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>>50671292
Here's an example of what the token(white) will look like in the game on a custom map made in blender. You're able to scale up the model to any size you want as well.

We sung of fire and stone and steel
That we once carved with shining tools,
We sat and ate our final meals
From plates of gold and cups of jewel,
We did not see, we did not know
What lay ahead, and now we cling,
To ragged rocks and sullied stones
And sing of long forgotten kings

- Dwarven lament, carved on a broken section of stone armour found abandoned in the wastes, Year of the End 682

>>50683670
With a colred model, is there a way to customize(color/paint) the square base as well?
Just so they don't stand out against the terrain so much.

>>50683776
To color the base you just have to color in the little square with your chosen color. Low tech, but effective.

>>50682676

So what kinda timeframe are we looking at for multiplayer?

>>50683880
Direct Connect works as of now, so hosting a match yourself is no problem. He's talking about spinning up a server for play.

>>50683960

ah, so theoretically we could play yes?

>>50684031
Oh, easily. It takes a minute for models to load for both ends, but after that gameplay is pretty smooth. Controls take a but to get used to.

Here's he download link, it's free as of now:
http://battlebox3d.com

>>50684072
I was just asking another dev about direct connect. Looks like you answered my question.

Our plan is to always have a free robust version of battlebox. Our feeling is that games are expensive enough as it is.

Question from one of the other devs: does anyone here play heroscape? (or use virtualscape?)

>>50683839
Gotcha.
Cool beans.

>>50684140
General consensus is that the game was pretty meh, but the free painted minis and modular hex tiles for as cheap as they come make it well worth buying.

>>50684228
We are currently working on importing from it. He likes playing it. He was just curious.

>>50684342
That'll be cool.

>>50682282

Thank you. I figured that the Lizardfolk believe themselves to be the only creatures worth ascending to godhood, so why not capitalize pronouns when referring to themselves?

Adds a bit of arrogance and grand-standing to the Lizardfolk, but the capitalization is lost on most of their kind. Assuming the monks are the only ones who write.

>>50679307
I like diluvial

We should rework the Bears in something less whimsical.

>>50684503
Nah. Druidic Bear warriors is pretty awesome. It's the Orks to our Restavia's Space Marines.

>>50684531
Zelthen, not Restavia, sorry.

>>50684503
Bears ain't whimsical. Get that shit out of here.

>Bears faction are a mainly bipedal matriarchal oligarchy. They have no centralized government, and exist as a lose confederation of fiefdoms. Primacy among leaders when two fiefdoms meet and/or cooperate is established through complex and nuanced biological, economic and social indicators that take decades to learn to recognize, but the system works as war between clans is exceedingly rare. Males are not truly integrated into their society, and are typically either self-reliant nomadic wanderers or a carefully segregated underclass, bred and raised for some specific purpose within any given clan (warriors, servants, craftsmen, etc)

>Their civilization is based around "industrialized druidism." By using magic to bend nature to their whims, they can mass produce anything they want without need of formal technology or agriculture. Other races often associate this way of life with gluttony, as they are famous for the quantity and variety of food they indulge themselves in daily thanks to their ability to make everything from plants to bees overproduce at their whim, but their talent for crafting weapons, armor and structures from wood and stone and to domesticate powerful forest creatures is just as important.

>This way of life does have a cost: plants, animals, even soil is "squeezed," of its very life-force by this unnatural overproduction over time, and this eventually leaves them completely barren. It is therefore essential to maintain their way of life that they raid other civilizations for fresh sources of nature to exploit, sometimes simply stealing plants and animals to replenish their homes, sometimes expanding or even moving wholesale to new territory. Rumors abound that in places their magic has totally exhausted life, undeath begins to appear and thrive. Such talk is always denied and quickly silenced.

>>50684567
>The Bears' plan to escape from their dying world is to hold the line. When the world started to die they began desperate research looking for answers, and by a stroke of luck or genius they discovered a once-an-eon celestial event was on the near horizon, an alignment of stars and planets that would make the natural essence of their world and the natural essence of another, verdant world far across the celestial void perfectly resonate with each other. When that moment comes, the dying world and the new world will become, in a cosmic sense, the exact same place. If in that moment their most powerful druids can perform a certain ritual, once the resonance ends the bear's entire civilization will find its lands transubstantiated to the new world, with the wasteland left behind.

>The keys to this ritual are the Primal Fulcrums, powerful natural essences which take the forms of plants, animals, lakes and other avatars of "pure," nature. The bears will do anything to keep these Fulcrums alive, because if too many are lost before the appointed day, their ritual cannot work and they are doomed. Their efforts to maintain the illusion of normalcy are as much rooted in hiding the identities and locations of the Fulcrums within their lands as they are in preserving their people and way of life to arrive at their new home intact.

>>50684593
>Bear lands are isolated islands of the old world artificially kept alive by their druidic prowess. The majority of their population is ignorant of the fact that most of the world has become barren wasteland by the efforts of the matriarchs to stop civilization from descending into total anarchy.

>The expense of maintaining their lifestyle in terms of the lifeforce they extract from their islands of nature is inflating exponentially as the world around them continues to die, and raids for replacement raw materials are becoming more frequent and more desperate. To buy themselves time, the matriarchs are reviving the ancient practice of hibernation to slow down the consumption of resources, but this is leading to new problems in terms of manpower shortages and brain drain, as at any given time their most brilliant minds or most productive workers might be sleeping to ensure the illusion of normalcy can be preserved for that much longer.

>The nomadic males have more and more difficulty surviving in the wastelands, with several subspecies unsuited for cold and less-than-plentiful food dying out entirely, but are also more and more important to the matriarchs, as they are the best way to scout for new sources of raw nature, and thus are causing certain subtle societal changes between the sexes. Time will tell if this causes the anarchy their grand deception is attempting to avoid.

>>50684503

All of this: >>50684615

And you get to play as MOTHERFUCKING BEARS.

>>50684668
There is no war in Bear-sing-se

>>50684531

I lovr how they are basically chaos warriors from fantasy, but with a beneficent diety.

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>>50684615
>>50684593
>>50684567

>>50684899
>>50684668
>>50684567
>Bears ain't whimsical. Get that shit out of here
They are. But nevermind.

>>50685039

The Bears are indeed whimsical. But they are BADASS WHIMSICAL. There's an enormous and profound difference between the two.

I feel like the Sorceror Holocrons would've mentally decayed over the centuries, and some of them might be going insane. I don't mean the pragmatic, wastelands cutthroat sociopathic insane, I mean the randomly cackling, balls-to-the-walls nuts, multiple personalities, schizophrenic mad scientist but with batshit crazy magic insane.

They are unpredictable, one might be completely normal and think that the world is as it was centuries ago, another might be fully aware of the apocalypse but gleefully ecstatic about it, and another might incessantly mutter random chaotic gibberish and constantly "experiment" on their mutant peasant followers and golem warriors with great relish. Somehow, the Horcruxes have managed to survive, and miraculously, even thrive in the Wasted, but there's no telling how much longer that'll last.

Thoughts, questions, and opinions?

>>50685039
How?

>>50685290

Talking anthropomorphic bears are inherently whimsical.

>>50685300
Once again - How?

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>>50685300
Anthropoorphic? I thought we well established that the bears are literally just BEARS that have slightly opposable claws and can stand up. No humanizing, just a bear that stands and can hold a spear, maybe wearing clumps of nature as decoration

>>50685421

i'm not the guy you were originally asking that to, i just see where he is coming from. I personally have no problem with bears.

>>50685454

While generally thought of as referring to appearing humanesque anthropomorphism technically refers to the attribution of human characteristics to things that aren't human. In this case language, culture, and a society. Perhaps i could have chosen a better word. In any case you are correct, they are just bears with thumbs.

>>50680205
So, I've been trying to come up with some thoughts for the Vishamti uniforms. The general feel was Bronze-armoured Cataphract heavy Cav's, demonic summoner casters, and generic roman cannon fodder to tarpit and bring demons into the fight. Maybe the cannon fodder should have iron maille, with a bit of plate on their commands? I know Roman brings to mind Lorica Segmentata, but they did use maille the most in their history. Perhaps due to iron being much more common, it's mainly used for the slave legions, reserving bronze and proper steel for the elites heavy cavalry?

Since they went for the Archon's Fist being the ones holding the demonic leashes, I kind of picture silk brocades, gilding, masks made of metals or bone, and incense burners to entice the demons forward. Perhaps various hermetic symbols on them or their surroundings? Things that bring to mind "I can twist your brain into a pretzel with a wave of my hand".

>>50685830

hmm. You know, even if we don't have the exact rules we need, i could do a stopgap statline. A temporary one until we get what we need to do a better job. I mean sure we don't have rules for deamons, but i can stat them as incoporeal with terror. That would probably be close enough.

>>50686464
As important as statting the demons, what should they look like? I want to conceptualize them.

Classic horns and cloven hooves?
Insectoid things?
Something else?

>>50686464
If you want to do one up, it'll be handy to have at least a skeleton list to adjust when they release the demon mechanics. This way they could have a bit of presence, and if the rules for summoning aren't too hot, we could tweak it more towards blasting or sending heavy cav's into tarpits.

So, with that in mind, I was thinking two or three type of line mook, (Swords, spears, axes?) armed with shields to soak up charges. They should probably be 5 q, 2 c trash mainly there as warm bodies to soak. Dunno appropriate costs or traits.

There should be some type of nobles, preferably mounted, to smash as a mailed fist into the foe. It seems like a lot of the other factions, but the lizards are hit-and-run, the dragons are more one or two units that cost 3/4's of your points, and the Knights are usually going to number between 3-6 units. Maybe have a few grades of cav's for their sweepers, a retinue, and the spearhead?

In lines of casters, it should be a few types of blasty, high-value characters. Maybe if there's a skill that can damage terrain or blast plates, that would suit this method of play. Besides, who cares if a few swordsmen get clipped by the 30' high column of fire? They were going to die eventually, and they made sure those flea-bitten bears didn't get a chance to run.

Demons, I'm not sure if we want hordes that better than the rabble, or murder-machines that blender their way through tarpits, maybe with a side of nuking lords off the face of the field. Terror and partial incorporeal could work.

I kind of hope these ideas give a bit of versatility to the list, and not just 'only one build is the right build' that you tend to run into.

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>>50680335
>>50680377
>>50683279

Thanks for the clarifications on the race appearance guys.

I love the idea of lighter colored lizardfolk. Then having dyes or darker/exotic shades seen as a type of currency or wealth ranking within the tribes. The Ivory Horde is a bitching name.

Also here's a desert iguana. Pretty damn pale, nearly albino.

>>50685830

I feel like your suggestions are good. But I must've missed something with the metals--is bronze held as a higher commodity than steel in Visamt?

And the summoners sound cool. Reminds me of the Orlesian nobility with their gaudy masks, except more metal. I like the incense, adds a bit of real life animals to summoned demons from gods know where.

>>50686959

I'll work on it.


.....have i been putting together "Only one build is right build?" I didn't mean to do it that way, i've just been trying to follow the fluff we have as best i can while giving them options. I thought we had provided some options actually. I mean you can grab different combos of knights. You can do archer lizards or hit and run lizards, or a combo, or do some monk lizards. different kindsa dragons or no dragon at all, choosing between a few centaurs or a lot of undead or some kinda mix. I don't even know what your supposed to do with the bears really, other than spam casters. I thought it was looking alright for variety, but now i'm kinda worried.

>>50686956
The kinds of demons I could see being brought out would likely be more cloven hooves, horn, and pitchforks kind of thing. It's a bit cliched, I feel like they'd prefer their monsters to have a bit of a humanoid or realistic basis. A lot of the 'eldritch horror beyond comprehensions' vibe is more suited to the dragon faction. It could also lead into why they don't fall under the dragon's sway. Something like, 'These are the demons we've dealt with for millenia, why hitch ourselves to some upstart beasts that lack subtlety and grace?'

>>50687030
No, I feel the other lists have plenty of potential builds. I kinda want to run a stalwart wall of Aegis Knights that laugh off attacks, or a dragon army of just one with two deadly centaurs that use the undead already in play to win. I just wanted to think my way through on how to make the Vis cav's different from the other runny, stabby guys.

>>50687098

i was thinking mounted and heavy armor. instead of light hit and run calvary they would be "smash into you like the hammer of a heathen god" calvary in keeping with being rich nobles in nice armor.

>>50687021

The feel with the metals I'd go with is Iron<Bronze<Steel<Gold. Iron is cheap, and you can find it everywhere. Bronze takes two, relatively common metals to make, and is usually stronger than iron alone. Steel is historically difficult to make well, and has always cost more. Maybe in Visamt they have a far amount of copper, tin, and low-grade iron, but it's difficult to find good enough iron and coal to make steel that's worth it in combat? Could also give them reasons to bother with enslaving/attacking others in order to find more deposits of better ores. Also, maybe bronze is going out of fashion due to depleting stocks of one of the ores required due to strip-mining.

>>50687121
That's definitely the way to go. The knights might have a similar weight with their order of the lance being a bit better, but, with the Visamti's you can have more than just 1 or 2 good spears. Maybe have them able to field more like 4 or 5? Not quite as good as Knights, but still able to batter anyone due to sheer concentrated weight. After all, the lizards cav's are alright, but shouldn't expect to get stuck in and smash through like the Cataphracti.

>>50687030

You've been doing a commendable job, friend, may Zelthen light your path.

>>50687121

For the Demons, I think we should go for a savage, axe wielding, howling bezerking goatmen horde for the baseline summoned unit. They're twice as able as the standard cannon fodder, and if possible under the game mechanics, can be summoned in groups, but take a while to get started.

For higher units, why not greatsword wielding, plate armored, vaguely humanoid corporeal shadows whose bodies have no features, save two glowing purple orbs in place of eyes. They have the strength of 10 men, move faster than should be possible, feel no fear or pain, their attacks cut into the very souls of their foes, and most terrifyingly, they are totally silent and all attacks that hit them make no noise whatsoever. Terrifying, obscenely expensive, but able to go toe to toe with the Preservers Of Zelthen's Light.

For the rest, I don't know, but maybe the LOTR's Balrog would be a good place to start for inspiration.

The difference between the Visamti Cavalry and the Ivory Horde is the difference between a retinue of mounted nobleman Knights and a swarm of Mongolian horse archers.

>>50680205

All right, writefag here finally finished compiling.

Obviously this is in no way complete, and it's mostly bullet points or paragraph blurbs. I feel like I'm definitely lacking in the departments of the Preservers, Visamt (though what I have stands on its own fine enough IMO), Berustia, Remnant of Restavia, Dwarves & Giants, and Eldritch Dragons & their centaurs & undead.

The Yonas seem to be the most fleshed out BAAAARZ, seconded by the lizardfolk/Ivory Horde. Guess they've been given a lot of focus cause they're so different.

I put it on a Google Doc, made it shareable as long as you have the link, and anyone can edit. I was mulling over taking the role as a lore compiler/writer, but I figured this is a shared setting in every sense of the word. Fading Embers is a beautiful thing, and I'll definitely keep my eye on this thread and future ones.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qgRwxxpLkYQRlL9XEkam1Oi5YRuweY8Gtg7V4uOTZsE/edit?usp=sharing

>>50672104

>Heir-Apparent Princess Rialta, 58th in the line for the throne, last of the Silvia bloodline. Commander of the Northern Legions, dubbed Rialta Magna ("the Great") Silvia, after victories against the Antithesis, and the Preservers of Zelthen's Light.

For Archon Kerallion, I'd see the rankings of how far away from the throne they are as a title that turned into a joke the further down you get and due to the Archon being immortal. A hollow title in the current age.

I'd also see the Archon naming the different bloodlines that came from him after the wife/concubine he had the first child with. For example, in Rialta's case, the woman who slept with the Archon and made her bloodline was named Silvia.

Also holy shit, if she's the heir-apparent, then what happened to the other 57 heirs...

>Yay political intrigue

>>50687834
Deadly. The xxxth-in-line was a throw-away gag I made for the leader types in the army, but I'm glad it's gaining traction. You could also swing it that it's considered bad luck to talk about the previous ones in line. As far as the propaganda is concerned, they died due to glory on the field, old age, or "accidents". If you bring up anything that doesn't follow what is set down, you might just suffer some "accidents" as well.

In terms of the Cav's rankings, perhaps the retinue guard could be Firstborns? It gives the view that they're important, and also are conveniently placed to gain honour with great risk. Lord's could be Scions of the line. Mainly because if the noble house on the field is suffers the indignity of losing, there's plenty more where they came from. Plus, it would be in their benefit to keep winning.

The elites could just be no-name Nobles, with Knights serving beneath them and Squires as their novice equivalent. Still brings to mind the glorious nobility taking the fight to the enemies of the Empire, and conveniently being on animals that can get away while wearing the best equipment money can buy for themselves.

I don't think I've seen two consecutive threads about a homebrew idea hit the 250 mark faster than a Generals thread. We've really got something on our hands.


>>50687534
Thanks, this is great! I'll make a backup of it just in case.

>>50685288
>>50687348

This is good lore. It adds a lot to the Sorcerous Conclave, and the Demon unit fluff seems to fit the setting. Wait, what exactly *are* the Visamti Demons, and where are they summoned from? Are they from another, alien and hellish dimension, are they corporeal manifestations of evil emotions and bloodlust, or what? There's almost nothing fluffing them, and they're an integral part of the Visamti faction!

>>50688138
Ooo, corporeal manifestations of evil emotions and bloodlust/bloodshedding is good. Gives a reason why you HAVE to burn away your fodder to get them in play. There has to be a certain amount of dark energies around to coalesce into the demons. They take their forms based on how the warlocks shape them. It ties into why they need to keep up the slaving by keeping the demons manifested in the upper echelons. Plus, it makes the demons dependent on them, rather than vice versa. Demon getting uppity? Take it to pieces and make the next one smarter. The reason they fear the dragon cults is you CAN'T just render down the dragons into essence.

It could lead into why they bothered enslaving the Ivory Horde to begin with. If the Lizards laid clutches of their young, they replenished themselves fast enough to make them a viable source of the energies needed for the demons. As such, even though they don't admit it, they desperately want to regain control over them to get a nice easy source of blood and bad energies to keep the demon strength flowing.

>>50688251

That's great stuff, but what about positive emotions? Do those have energy as well, or has positive energy faded with the Sun's light? Ooh, maybe the undead are animated by the ambient negative energy released by the decay of the world, and are violently reanimated during battles? Are the Eldritch Dragons only maggots, that consume the rotting carcasses of dying and dead worlds?

>>50688400
Perhaps the positive energies manifest themselves in Angelic beings and auras. The view taken by the Oder of Zelthen is that their mutations are things like perfect symmetry, glowing eyes, and feelings of cleanliness. Perhaps they harness the few bits of positive energy into making the Knights? It could also be being siphoned off into the Yona lands Fulcrums to maintain their fertility. As such, it's one more secret the Bears have to make sure doesn't leave the Sacred Glades. The word that they are eating the positive energies might just swing the Zelthens attentions towards them, potentially stretching their strained forces to the breaking point like the Dwarves.

I feel the line of thought on the Dragons is a good one, but not the real thing. After all, they're supposed to be inscrutable beyond thought, and beyond mortal knowing. It could be how the other factions view them, and, deep down, what the Centaurs still feel.

>>50688510

Does that imply that Zelthen is essentially the ultimate opposite to the Demons, as He, blessed be His Holy name, is the literal incarnation of Righteous Fury and Holiness? Is that why Priests of The Preservers Of Zelthen's Light are able to smite Demons?

What if Zelthen started as a nameless being of positive energy, but as the world began to decay and the Gods of the old world, if they ever existed, left or faded away, the Preservers began to worship Him as a God of justice, honor, and light, over time, he eventually gained a consciesness and became a literal God based around the destruction of Evil and the Corruption that is killing the world, and by extent, the Corruption of negative energy?

It would explain why Zelthen gains power with each enemy of the Light that is slain, and his unyielding, infinite hatred of the darkness of the world, and his equal love and devotion to his followers. I like this, I like it a lot, and it all fits together so well. I feel like this, if it's implemented, should all be background lore, unknown to the actual in-game factions, as it would reduce their worship to a science, and that's terrible for the setting's tone.

>>50675298
>>50679307

Lets talk Lizard mythology and religion.

Its fairly clear at this point that the lizards are a pious people by nature. They have full faith in their religion's message: kill all humans, and we shall ascend to godhood. We can and will remake the world once that happens, bringing about a Golden Age. In this way, they have yet another link to the Mongols, in that one could interpret their motive as being along the lines of a Mandate of Heaven. They are driven by a divine purpose to make war.

However, as we've discussed before, the Lizard race's religion has a gnostic quality to it, which was backed up by the recent writefaggotry. Knowledge is the base of all power. Certain individuals (the monks) have access to DIVINE knowledge, the gnosis, and are thus enlightened. By becoming initiated into this knowledge (the password is: kill all humans), you become aware of the proper way to act in life, and by practicing these proper acts, you gain power and approach oneness with God. The imperfect world we live in is ephemeral, while the perfect world of God is eternal.

Now I want to bring up something I find interesting: a post from the last thread that's been overlooked mentioned the idea that the mythology of the Lizards has NO progenitor gods This gave me an idea: what if by lizard reckoning there have never been gods before at all? What if success in their transubstantiation is not a return to a golden age before their God-kin were enslaved by humans, but the first golden age the world has ever known?

cont.

>>50688702
Yeah, I agree that it should all be background, unknown stuff. The only ones who probably came close to discovering it was either the Restavians, who suddenly had much more important things to worry about ie. Not dying horribly, or the Centaurs who basically decided to chuck that out the window when the Dragons appeared, because they DON'T follow the traditional thought processes of good vs. evil, just seemingly mindless consumption for it's own sake.

>>50688747

As I mentioned last night, one Mongolian creation myth involves the idea that at the start of time, there was nothing in the world but water. In their story, it was a creator god who stirred this water until life came about. But, if as I suggested the lizards don't believe in any prior gods, and we want to keep this idea that "before, all was water," then who created the world?

Gnosticism actually gives us a great answer: the imperfect, ephemeral world was created by something called a demiurge, itself an imperfect being who is beneath God.

So here's my thinking: what if in the lizard's religion, HUMANS are the demiurge? Humans created the world, which is why the world is shit. Only by killing a shitty, imperfect divinity can his shitty, imperfect world become an eternal paradise.

This is interesting because they do still have a mandate of heaven for their cause, but like any good gnostic system they are not handed that mandate by an external divinity, they are self-starting. They found enlightenment on their own, just like they found emancipation on their own, and they will use that enlightenment to become Gods because if they don't, there will never BE gods, and without Gods the emphmeral world will eventually disappear into nothing.

The Lizards truly believe that if they don't succeed, if every single human isn't wiped from the world before it is too late, if their temples and their enlightened knowledge is not preserved so that it is not lost forever, the end of existance itself is certain.

They carry the weight of the cosmos on their shoulders, and nobody else can save it.

>>50688874
YES! This is fantastic! It ties together the supremacy they feel of the lizard-people, and the divine right of their cause. In addition, it lends a feverish need to step up the rate of Ascension, as the imperfect, shittily made world is dissolving before their eyes. Perhaps they view the Inverse as a ticking clock, consuming the imperfect world, and they must reach godhood by the time they render it into the last bits of dust over the waves.

>>50688747
>>50688874

Interesting, genocidal gnostic tengri Lizardmen, I don't think that's ever been done before.

>>50688785

I posted that, and I agree with you wholeheartedly that it should be background lore.

>>50680205

Now, about the faction's ascetic. I think that Restavia sounds somewhat French, and that gives me an idea. What if the Restavian Remnant's culture was mostly victorian era France, with bits and pieces of late reniassance Italian and medieval Eastern European culture thrown in for flavor, along with the remnants of a largely powerless ruling dynasty, and a utilitarian, secular guild that operates like the Catholic Church, but worships Technology instead of a Deity?

Just think: Badass, steampunk, tech-worshiping, atheist catholic, post-apocalyptic Frenchmen! No one has ever done that before!

>>50689063

I wrote the post that suggested the Zelthans came from a fallen kingdom where they were a fringe religious cult, and if its helpful when I wrote about "a perfect Arcadia," I was vaguely thinking about a high medieval pseudo-fairytale Germanic setting, something along the lines of Kings Quest, or more directly the kingdom Reinhardt is from in Overwatch (complete with esoteric knight-tech even!)

Garmanic with Steam Tech in a near-fallen civilization that has totally lost its roots might be too WHFB Empire though.

Just an idea, but after we have finished with the war gaming mechanics for each of the factions, I think it might be a good idea to write out some rules for roleplaying in this setting, I think runequest 6/Mythras would be a perfect base to build on for fleshing out this setting.

>>50684503
>>50685288
>>50685039

Bearlore guy here, I'm not above suggestion or criticism. If you really feel like they're whimsical feel free to suggest something. I tried to avoid that with the Druid-as-Industry gimmick and the Police State politics and the isolated islands of life in endless death and the desperate mission to survive until the day they can teleport away stuff. If I had to cite one thing that has the tone I was shooting for with them, it would be something like Princess Mononoke, an image of nature that's greedy and petty, but still grandiose and awe-inspiring even as it fades and rots.

>>50689213
Well, I think the previous lore was that the Zelthan were from a small kingdom, whereas Restavia seems more like a big one that was a rival to the Visamti's in it's prime. Perhaps it's Germanic or Eastern Europeanish for them, and Gallic for the Restavians? You then get the 4 different human factions from the pre-fall. Germanic ones who kept to themselves who became the Zelthans, French magiocrats who abandoned magic in favour of technology to escape for the Remnants. The Visamt's who keep on keeping on down south, and the more English/Scandinavian Berustians who never stopped being a wretched hive of scum and villiany.

>>50689213

I feel German culture, while great, has been overdone. France though, that could be interesting.

>>50689266
I could cobble together race stats for SW or 5e. Or I've been on a Blade of the Iron Throne kick for a bit, so we could play it off as a Sword and Sorcery setting.

I was thinking more about the knights.

What if the line between knight and "veteran knight" was when they gain an angelic mutation. Sort of a divine reward for piety and service.

As you ascend towards Grand Master you lose more and more of your humanity. You become less human and more of a piety powered 'demon' of Zelthen.

Pious knight's ability to smite demons is sort of a matter antimatter reaction, as the opposed positive and negative emotions cancel each other out.

>>50689313
Talking bears with opposable thumbs have to walk a fine line to avoid whimsy and I for one think you nailed it.
The trick, I feel, is to constantly maintain that element of "this is a beast that can and will rip my face off."

>>50688995

One thing I found super interesting about the last writefag bit further up the thread is that I got the impression that there was a lot of sympathy for the Centaurs. The tone almost felt pained as the text contemplated the parallels between their peoples. It was also interesting that the Lizard was totally pragmatic in how he viewed the Inverse/Antithesis/Dragons. There was no fear there.

Nor, if one believes that they will one day become a higher class of Capital G God than this world has ever seen, should there be I suppose. Once they ascend, what threat could ANYTHING pose, even this anti-life monster? The world will be a perfect paradise and they will be a race of immortal omnipotent warriors, dealing with them will be a matter of course.

All they have to do is survive them, perhaps blunt their progress with raids and such so the End isn't accelerated. They're not the concern, the humans are. And if the poor Centaurs need die in that process, it is a regrettable waste, but nothing to lose sleep over.

>>50689063

>>50687098
>>50687233
>>50687348

Okay, here is a proposal for our Not!Byzantine demon summoner empire

The infantry

Legionare 18 Group Fighter (P) Shieldwall, Tower Shield q5 c2

Auxilia 15 Javelin Quick q5 c2

Preatorians 24 Drilled Group fighter Javelin Shieldwall Tower Shield q5 c2

Centurions 27 Drilled Group fighter Shieldwall Subcommander Tower Shield q5 c2

The calvary

Basic noble 50 Mounted Heavily Armored q3 c3

veteran noble 63 Mounted Heavily Armored q2 c3

Leader noble 75 Heavily armored Mounted Subcommander q2 c3

The casters

Front line mage 26 Spell-caster Spell: Flame Jet (P) Protection from Arrows (P) q4 c1

Quieter of the dead Spell-caster Spell: Destroy Undead 30 q3 c1

Dispeller 36 Spell Caster Spell Break Enchantment (P) Counter-Spell (P) q4 c1

Deamon summoner 60 Spell-Caster Spell: Summon Warrior (P) (demon) q3 c1

Fist of the Archon 105 Spell-caster (P) Spell: Flame Jet (P) Protection From Arrows (P) Summon Warrior (P) q2 c1

Demons option 1

Lesser Demon 60 Fragile Tiny Unruly Terror (P) q3 c4

Demon 76 Big Terror (P) q3 c4

Greater Demon118 Huge Huge Weapon Terror q2 c4

Demons option 2.

Lesser Demon 62 Berserk, Greedy, Terror (P), Unruly q3 c3

Demon 72 Berserk, Greedy, Terror (P), Unruly q3 c4

Greater Demon 115 Berserk, Greedy, Terror (P), Unruly q2 c4

So we have throwaway infantry, Heavy calvary that should hit hard and get stuck in, and the demons. For the demons i tried to design them as dark reflections of the nights so i kept them at similar point values with lesser demons being roughly equal to a night demons being the equivalent of veteran knights and the greater demons terrible threats that only a Lord could face down. I'm afriad because of point costs i couldn't give them the incoporeal, but i feel like Terror is good.

>>50689430

for the record i was thinking we pick one of the two demon options, or maybe mix and match.

>>50689409

This is an interesting idea. As it is i have the mutations as the unifying feature in each order represented by the special rules that are ubiquitous to each order, but i could go back and mock up something different if we decide to go with this.

>>50689409
>>50689421
>>50689427

I like it.

>>50689430

Seems balanced and versatile.

>>50689354

The original lore was for sure that the Zelthans were from Restavia, it was like a MEGA-KINGDOM encompassing a huge swath of territory which is WHY it was the rival to the Visamti. King Arthur vs Constantine basically.

That said, I don't think it'd be any high crime to change the Zelthans to being from their own northern kingdom rather than one of three fragments of Restavia.

I do agree that the Berustians should be focusing on the Northern European angle. Scandanavia is a good base, though of course there's tons of fun countries to play with north of Germany, and a dab of English (or maybe even New English?) certainly isn't amiss. I'm still very interested in one post that suggested trying to integrate some Japan in there. All three of the big "whaling cultures," blended together behind the same isolationist wall sailing ever further out to sea looking for increasingly rare beasties that are the only thing keeping them alive sounds like it could be fascinating.

>>50689485

So do you prefer demon option 1 or demon option 2?

And should i start working on an alternate possibility for the Knights statline based on >>50689409 ?

>>50689430
I like this list a fair bit. I'd prefer demon option 2, since if they were going to create demons on the spot, they'd want them gribbly and riled up. Could also lend to casting away (or not) from your infantry to avoid FF. Plus, them not having more than 2 units over 75 points helps you get more models on the board to better reflect the tactics they should favour. It kinda makes me want to run a list with two wings of cav's, a tarpit or two, and the counterspellers to react to Bear terrain-fuckery. They'd be a lot harder to lock down with brambles and vines than Lizards or Knights. You'd probably need to be creative to deal with them if you run Lizards or Bears. Dragons probably would just tarpit the knights, and chow down on the Infantry to bulk up the Dragon.

>>50689464
I think that still works. I'd you're a pathfinder and your get an ageis mutation, you switch orders.

It's obvious that you fucked up, because Zelthen doesn't make mistakes. (Even if the mutations are completely random)


Also as a more fluffy bit, maybe the mutations only started to happen after the world started dying. The Preservers think of it as a blessing of Zelthen, but the reality is whatever those good emotions were being siphoned off by (gods?) stopped.

Now the energy just drifts until it's cancelled by a negative emotion or attaches to a pius do-gooder like a bit of fluff to a wool sweater. If enough builds up, it stays having physical manifestations.

Maybe this idea is dumb, but I'm a bit sleep deprived.

>>50689595

I'm enjoying what your saying. Would you mind giving me your projection of how each match up would go, in your opinion. I kinda wanna sit back and discuss what the tactics would end up looking like. So far the way i see it Dragons and the Empire have the potential to field the most units, followed by lizards and maybe knights if they just went straight aspirants. Bears are all pretty expensive so we have bears and (actual) knights as the more elite few unit lists.

>>50689534
Maybe the old kingdom of Restavia could have been something like the Holy Roman Empire or a union of states and so the various factions that are assossiated with it were partially independent and so able to keep there own culture and character but were tied together by an alliance.

>>50689409

Well, the Grand Master did write that nice poem though.

I was thinking that perhaps the leaders of the Orders start to recover their humanity a bit once they get to the "running the civilization," level because they don't need to be on their combat drugs anymore. Their mutations might still be the most extensive if that's how you want to go though. Sort of a Gentle Misunderstood Frankenstein/Kong kind of thing. Or maybe a "The Judges above Judge Dredd in the heirarchy aren't total hardass psychotics like him because they aren't on the streets every day," if you prefer that image.

In the alternative maybe once they reach leadership levels they're so overwhelmed by their divinity their minds are kind of warped and they communicate mainly through poetry, like the old "the bible was written by mortals channeling the words of the divine/struck by the muses," idea. This is why they need a Council of Mayors, they can barely comprehend the material world anymore and so they need normal humans who are capable of informing them about the mundanities of government things like, you know, boots and beans.

>>50689534
Ah, I think that bit of Knight lore slipped under for me. I could see it more appropriate to keep them the same culture, as they would have been regarded the same way we tend to regard Amish, Mennonites, or other sects of the main lip-service religions. Except, of course, their gloom and nay-saying turned out to have been right all along.

For the Berustians, maybe a mix of Danish, Swedish and Japanese then? After all, before the End, they might have made coin smuggling and counterfeiting Restavian goods, and selling slaves to the Visamt's from where-ever else. They could have kept a bit of Japanese stand-offishness as well. The other's who aren't Berustians clearly weren't up to snuff if they let a little thing like desertification wipe them out.

>>50689572
I think the best comparison for knights works be against the Vesanti cavalry instead of demons. Even just a little better would imply "super human".

>>50689689

I'm sorry, i'm struggling to comprehend your meaning. Are you saying that as is you feel that they are closer to, and act as the opposite of, the Empire's calvary and not the Demons, or are you saying that in your opinion they *should* be closer to, and act as the opposite of, the Empires calvary and not the Demons. Or have i misunderstood entirely?

>>50689642
Sure. I'll do up a quick idea of how Empire vs. Lizards would play out, considering those are the two I'd probably run the most in-depth lists for.

Ivory Horde:
Primordial x 1 :90
Pioneer x 2 : 104

Total: 194

Horsemaster x 2: 96
Lancer x 3: 108

Total: 204 +194 = 398

Empire:

Calvary:
Leader x1 75 pts.
Veteran x 3 189 pts

Total : 265 pts.

Casters:

Front Line x 2 52 pts.

Total: 52 pts + 265 = 317

Infantry:

Legionare x 4 72 pts.

Grand total : 389 pts, leaving 11 to mess around for other flavours of caster

cont.

>>50689664

So the king of Restavia was the High King, to whom two lesser Kings bent knee and became vassal without being totally subjugated because Restavia was a fairy tale wonderland whose nobility were all Benevolent Prince Charmings? That's an interesting notion.

I would imagine the actual Restavian capital is a totally lost near-myth and the Remnant shored up in a kind-of-wealthy-but-backward province. People who got fat and happy exporting coal or gold or some other important resource but never bothered investing that wealth in education or infrastructure and just lived lazy, indulgent lives. They were supposed to have survived because a uniquely fertile river valley and the tech that they never really understood how to work properly, so it makes sense if they were originally rich-but-useless socialite types who had to harden the fuck up when things got bad and are now crazy technocrats.

I would imagine that in this setup the area that the Conclave is in was also an independent kingdom rather than part of Restavia proper. So its the King of the North and the Mage King bending knee to the High King then.

>>50689689

If you are saying we should establish that the knights are superhuman by comparing them to the Empires Calvary, then that makes sense. If one compares them the Knights of Zelthan do have better statblocks at higher costs, so one could say they are "super human" in that one of these dudes on foot outdoes a dude on a horse.

>>50689669
I really like the second idea.

>Grand Master how much grain should we send to the relief force?
>Suffer not the glutton, nor those who would shirk Zelthen's work for false pious hunger.
>... So, like a ton? Two?
>Count not what we have, but what we must give. And give freely ,for a miser's reward is earthly but Zelthen's divine.
>... Two it is.

They shouldn't be fully alien, it out if touch, because unlike actual devils who are summoned from nothing, they are still partially human.

Also personally from the previous fluff, demons, or at least powerful demons, have thier own personality and motivations being at least clever enough to make demonology dangerous.

>>50689831

Which is why they must be appeased with sacrifice. They demand blood and death (lifeforce) and if one cannot give it they will take it. We should work out summoning rules real fast, for the undead for the dragons and the demons for the empire. i mean both are being represented by the same rule, but they do pretty different things.

>>50689717
Sorry if I wasn't clear. In my mind, they should be closer in stats and in fluff to human cavalry then demon units.

>>50689799

ohh im exited.

>>50689799
The way I'd run the lizard side would be kiting the calvary with my riders. They'd probably get beat up, but if I split them up and keep them away from the tarpit, they should hold their own. The archers would focus on wiping out the mages with their better aim, while also trying to avoid the pit. They tend to have shittier C values, so I won't have to rely as much on lots-o-rolls, but if I do, the elites I picked shouldn't fail too much.

Conversely, on the Imperial side, I'd try to use the Infantry I've got to bog down the archers. Shieldwall will help keep them alive for at least long enough for the battle-mages to roast them. The cav's I picked are plenty good to either bunch up and smash the others one wing at a time, or split into two packs to pincer around the weaker ones. One other option would be to harry them into close combat with the infantry so they have nowhere to run, and the Legionnaire's would gain a good boost from the Lord.

Thoughts?

>>50689871

Eh, as is there is about a ten point differential between baseline Calvary and baseline knight, and veteran knight and veteran Calvary. where the difference really shows is in the lords. I feel like it's appropriate for the whole mutant superhuman thing. That and i kinda don't wanna go back and rework them soooooo yeah. I mean if everyone agrees that it needs to change i'll do it. But i personally am k with it as is. Sorry, i hope i don't offend, i'm not trying to be rude.

>>50689884

This is good stuff, though it raises a question in my mind. How does one manage to use his Tarpit? I mean it seems like they'd just get kited.