I always think a lot of traditional RPGs could learn a thing or two from Wuxia- Specifically, that storytelling doesn't end when combat begins.

In Wuxia fiction, combat is often a primary means of plot progression. It's not just about victory or defeat, through the clash of blades and struggle of wills is when secrets are unearthed, truths are revealed and great discoveries are made. And the end of a fight is often not just one person dying, but the two coming apart with some loss or gain on either side.

Its ability to support this in games is part of why I adore Legends of the Wulin, but I think D&D and other systems could benefit from this idea, instead of combat just being a mechanical mini-game between non-combat/roleplaying segments, focus on combat as a representation of your character and creative expression on the players part. You can do this while keeping mechanically satisfying, crunchy combat rules (as shown in LotW), and I think it'd do a lot to help keep people engaged and interested beyond just the rules themselves, as well as better supporting the idea that the results of combat are more than a binary win/lose.

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>>51665650
Having realized this thread could use a prompt...
>What is your current of favorite wuxia campaign like

I have been running a Legends of the Wulin game in a sort of modern day version of the base setting. Turns out "hidden" societies of superhuman martial artists exist all over the world, and the players are gearing up to help represent Shen Zhou at a conference of the Leaders of the respective nations martial artists

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What is Wuxia?

>>51665869
It's a recent word for chinapunk/kung-fupunk.

>>51665832
I've been running a Legend of the Elements game, it's a wuxia rpg inspired by Avatar. The combat system encourages a lot of mobility which produces some cool moments

>>51665869
Chinese fantasy, by which I mean the version of the fantasy genre which originated in China

>>51665897
>>51665898
>Chinapunk
Neat.

What are the ingredients for it? I recall that it's all ancient emperor's and stuff, but what usually goes in it?

Like I know Cyberpunk has the internet and oppression and corporations, and I'm familiar with those, but not Chinapunk stuff.

PS does it include other places like Korea and Singapore?

>>51665970
>Neat.

No.

Now go fuck a live lamp socket.

>>51665832

I'm also running a modern LotW game, set in a ruined city generally called 'Hell', but is colloquially termed 'Jiang High'.

In this world there are five great Martial Arts academies, named for the four guardian beasts and the Golden Dragon of the centre, each an ancient, respected pillar of tradition and learning, teaching right and proper Kung-fu to the next generation. Exactly as the Emperor and his bureaucracy tells them to.

At least, this is how the situation looks to the renegades and loners of the Jiang Hu, those who long for the old days when the reach of order and the central control was not so long. They fear that the new Xia, meant to operate outside those structures, are instead being co-opted into them.

Thus, Jiang High was forged. A school in name only, a half-ruined city kept purposefully broken and anarchic. Within, young Xia must fend for themselves, with only a few safe places and friendly faces to be found. Everything else you must fight for.

Everyone is on an even footing in Hell- The orphaned child of a prostitute and the Imperial Heir itself are, at least in theory, equal. And if after a battle the peasant remains standing, he is greater in the eyes of Hell.

People spend different lengths of time in Hell, depending on how quickly they learn its lessons. Those who grow too strong are also encouraged to leave by the Xia who safeguard the city, to ensure the anarchy is not broken by someone taking absolute command.

The PCs are students of Jiang High, a group of young Xia who for whatever reason didn't want to or couldn't find education outside, and so are taking the only route to cultivation that is open to absolutely everyone. Saint or sinner, pauper or prince... In Hell, the one left standing is king.

>>51665970
The setting is always an anacronistic version of China.
It often involves "knight errants", powerful martial artists that travel the land either searching revange, power or trying to right the wrongs.
Fights are often very flashy.

>>51665970
this poster: >>51665897 is incorrect, mostly about it being recent

the core concept is that Wuxia stories follow warriors of great skill as they adventure through a setting generally referred to as the Jianghu (I may have misspelled that) which while not a strictly defined setting is a set of statements about the world (mostly based on Chinese folk myth) which are usually assumed to be true. In addition to being Kung-Fu masters Wuxia protagonists are also usually expected to be perfect Confucian gentlemen. They spend most of their time dealing with corrupt officials, bandits, evil warlords, and getting into what can best be described as kung-fu dick-measuring contests with each other

>>51666118

The Jiang Hu and Shan Li are interesting concepts, since they're two different worlds that coexist in the same physical space.

The Shan Li is the structured, ordinary world, where your position in society, your rank and wealth define your place and power, where you must obey your superiors and act as the order of heaven obliges you to. It's the 'real' world of ancient China, very structured and strict and rigid.

The Jiang Hu is everything outside of that. Not just the Xia, wandering warriors, but also wandering peddlers or actors and entertainers, vagrants and vagabonds. Ordinary people are meant to look down upon the Jiang Hu but it's highly romanticised, the idea of living on your own terms without being bound by the traditional structures an appealing proposition to those stuck where they are.

Xia are heroes in the more classical sense- Great and powerful, but not necessarily good. This gets extra complicated given the fact that traditional Chinese morality is also rather different to what you'd expect, where in some cases it would be considered moral and righteous to obey the command of a superior rather than to indulge in benevolence and compassion.

This is, of course, an incredibly surface level reading of the whole thing. I'm by no means an experts and this is mostly what I've gleaned from light research spurred on by enjoying Wuxia films and reading the RPG books (Although Legends of the Wulin does give a pretty solid primer on this stuff).

This is one of those "genres I love but never get to play" as it's never something that interests groups I'm in.

I even petitioned /tg/'s Group Finder for a group for Qin or similar for a while.

I don't even think there is much good vidya to play instead.

Ah well, back to watching shows and movies.

>>51665869
>>51665897
>>51665970
Please don't use the word Chinapunk, I wanna smack whoever came up with that word.

>>51666118
Building on this anon's ideas about being a Confucian gentleman, you get a LOT of stiffs who will be your ally but turn around and attack you the moment they feel that you're not being said gentleman. There's a whole story that's just an overbloated love story where a dude isn't allowed to date his teacher despite the fact that he's OP as fuck and did so much fucking community work.

There's plenty of ancient techniques passed down only to one student, often times overdramatized, super high in power level and ALWAYS taught to the main character by the playful Master of a martial arts sect. They also bear fancy ass names that are super difficult to translate into English, like the 18 Dragon Subduing Palm technique (we just resolve it in 5 syllables so it's great to yell in a battle) or the Dog Beating Stick style. It's all very scholarly, to give you the idea that a martial artist is also learned and cultured.

Then there's Chi, whose influence varies depending on how magic you want your story to be, but goes from improving your technique performance to powering shit like hadoukens to straight up making you go insane if you practice it wrong or someone blocks your acupoints and you try to do a technique.

Fuck me now I want to watch another wu xia series. Who /jingyong/ here?

>>51666900
i satisfy myself on it by reading chink novels m8.

>>51667173
The Louis Cha stuff? Any recommendations?

>>51667190
I always default to Return of the Condor Heroes and Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre, those are timeless entry points and sort of sequels to each other. Then if you liked that, backtrack to Legend of the Condor Heroes which is a direct prequel to Returned.

Be warned though, if Return is Star Wars Ep 4-6, Legend is Star Wars Ep 1-3.

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>>51666900
I know the feeling, my regular group had a few guys with conflicting schedules so we couldn't sustain a regular campaign until things evened out recently
During that time I tried to find a group online but the lake was dry and no one seemed to be up for it

What is people suggestion for best game for these? I'm a GURPS-fag and the system is easily used for wuxia. I know Qin and Legends of Wulin(?) are out there as well.

>>51667276
Interesting analogy.

China loves making and remaking books as shows, so have seen a few.

Classics like Water Margin and Three Kingdoms are great, but also enjoyed the first Condor Heroes, Swordsman and >>51667062
Book & Sword.

The difference may almost be classified as "low wuxia" and "high wuxia" as we classify high and low fantasy?

>>51667369
Yeah, Roll20 doesn't seem a breeding ground for Chinese style RPGs.

>>51667449

LotW is my personal favourite, although it's something of a niche game. The unique combination of mechanical crunch and narrative design is enough to put off a lot of people, and it doesn't help itself by having an awfully edited core book. When you get it running, though, the system is so fucking good.

>>51667062
>Fuck me now I want to watch another wu xia series. Who /jingyong/ here?
I've been in mood to watch some wuxia for some time now, but don't really know what and where to look for.

>>51667571
search "engsub drama" on the YouTubes, /tg/-bro

>>51667604
Oh my! Thank you anon.
Treat yourself with your favorite porn, you have deserved it.

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Might as well ask this here, not sure where else I could.
What would.... Metal Magical things be able to do?

Right like I've only got the most basic of ideas when it comes to this element. Metal manipulation and holy weapons for combat. For the magical community a bunch of either warrior spirits and miserly rich guys.

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>>51667604
That's where I managed to watch all of Condor Heroes

>>51665650

While not explicitly wuxia I've been working on a 5e setting where kitchen sink asia plays a big role in it.

Inspiration for it comes in the form of various Venom mob movies especially Kid with the Golden Arm and recently Thunderbolt Fantasy.

>>51667725

Just the idea of "everyone has basic kung fu skill level, then an extra package of stuff" is a solid game idea in my opinion.

>>51667984

I know right? I'll never understand why the monk is the only person who can punch things because the monk is shoe-horned to be the monastic shaolin monk rather than literally being any number of wuxia archetypes that exist.

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>>51668247
DnD has always suffered from having a set of very rigid archetypes define it's classes
Fighters and other martials not having decent unarmed and movement capabilities has always bothered me

Why are Wuxia love interests so hot blooded and tomboyish?

>>51669013
Because there needs to be a reason for them to be Xia instead of housewives?

I agree though, while the concept doesn't bother me, when almost every major girl character in every series is like that, it gets a bit repetitive and boring.

For all'yall LotW players:

I made a new sheet for LotW, although it probably has some oversights due to my exposure to the game being limited.

>Horizontal for harmony reasons
>(Almost) All of the combat stuff on one sheet and non-combat stuff on the other
>Added totals for Entanglement and Chi cultivation
>Added a spot to put in entanglements (probably too small)
>Markers for permanent chi
>And most important of all, NO MORE MISALIGNED LINES. If there are any, sudoku awaits.

It's still quite beta, but it's the whole sheet so give critique.

I also made a 100% functional form-fillable sheet from the original. I can drop that one too.

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>>51669250
Excuse me, there was a problem. I forgot to rename the goddamn elemental chi types.

Some of the text is also small as fuck, and everyone might not like the egregious font.

>>51669013
The ideal Chinese lady is obedient, shy, and quiet. Not good for being a wandering kung fu master. Of course northern chinese women are pretty damn fiery compared to southern chinese women.

>>51669250
>>51669334

That actually looks damn good, way better than the official sheet. Thank you for your work!

>>51669494
Thanks! The main reason for redoing the sheet was that the original was less than impressive.

Hmm, that Lake on the second page still bothers me a bit (it's not exactly in the center). Hmm... Is there anything I could fit next to it that would actually make sense to be on the second sheet?

Actually, a very important thing is missing from the sheet, the current Ripple count. Again, things I'm just baffled are missing from the original sheet.

My setting is mostly wuxia with a heavy dose of xian, boddhisattavas, shen, demons, ninja, dragons, samurai, and mecha.

>>51669789

If you're a Toughness/Armour heavy character? 10 ripples is nothing.

I've seen the toughness tank in a game I'm in take twenty-something rippling rolls and tank them or take only a trivial. We mathed out that it would take something like 150 ripples to OHKO them assuming no damage bonus.

Toughness might be a weaker stat than the primary defences in many ways, but it still lets you pull off some fucking awesome stuff.

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>>51669600
Ehhem, here's a better / fixed version.

>>51669875
Oh, sorry, removed that post because I fixed that. Well, the ripple counter has TENS in it, so you can have up to hundred with it.

But that's fucking insane. So I guess going up to 99 is good enough, and theoretically you can just add to 10+ to tens, nothing's stopping, really.

Or would a place for just a value (like one circle coded Ripples) be better then? Because I'm thinking erasing those ripples might become pretty tedious.

the only wuxia related stuff i've exposed to was thunderbolt fantasy and red storm

Teach the wuxia good shit to this novice anon if you'll be so kind

>>51669959
Should've screencapped that one anon's explanation of how LotW works. It's really the easiest way to understand how deep yet neat that system is.

>>51669959
>>51670002

For basic details on how Wuxia works, LotW is actually a decent read anyway. Even if the rules are really hard to figure out from the awful editing, the setting primers, explanation of concepts and the list of influences in the back are actually really well put together.

>>51665869
>X-COM Capt. Haddock
>got booze as the secondary item
kek

It seems to me that wuxia threads are a great place to go if you want long pontifications, too.

>>51669959
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

It's famous for a reason

Be sure to include

>Evil martial arts school who teaches a deadly forbidden technique
>Tragic dramatic villain deaths
>Villain who is the evil equivalent of a shounen hero
>Badass girl fighters who inexplicably become helpless damsels if they A: are love interest of the MC and B: get grabbed by the villain
>Evil pupil of the BBEG stabs him in the back and takes his place as BBEG
>Girl fighters falling for guy fighters after a sparring match or vice versa
>Devoted Confucian brotherly love
>Picking fights over disrespect
>Bystanders narrating whatever techniques are being used
>Special moves which tap into chi
>Pussy magnet MC who attracts everything from farm girls to princesses
>Girls somehow deal damage with slaps
>Confucian loyalty tested: expect suicide or choosing a third option for a happy ending
>Bad girl who leaves the villains after getting defeated/rescued by our noble MC then set on the path of Xia
>People who screw over their families, friends, and especially master are worse than scum
>Villain is often jealous of the MC (be it fame, earning respect of a great sifu, or their beautiful girlfriend)
>Eunuchs are evil scheming weirdos
>The Emperor is the big good of the story and he just isn't aware of what the villains are up to at the time
>Your Sifu has a best friend who turned evil or became a grumpy hermit
>Heroes and villains tend to get obsessed with each other, like Nardo & Saucegay obsessed
>Common villain goal is immortality
>Modern wuxia characters can dodge and curve bullets because fuck you
>happily married couples get tragically ripped apart by bloodthirsty villains unless they're both martial artists
>cutting your hair means some real ass shit just happened
>chopsticks, paintbrushes, chairs, instruments, and fans can make surprisingly good weapons
>sword fighting while running up or down a sheer mountain face is just part of Wuxia life
>Old masters good or evil are often motivated by boredom

>One Wuxia hero > Hundreds of armed normal soldiers
>Magical steroids cause magical roid rage
>Girls often dress as boys to travel with them, when the heroes have to infiltrate a group of women she'll be absolutely stunning
>Idealism, mountains and oceans of positive idealism
>Tsundere love interests everywhere
>If you're a peasant farmer, run. Your land is probably sitting on shitloads of spiritual power buried somewhere. Expect villains to kill you and seize it.
>Be nice to teahouse girls, they're probably the reincarnation of some glorious heroine or goddess. Expect them to be kidnapped by dark forces.
>Parents actually exist unlike anime and are happy to offer support (it would be nice if you became doctah tho)
>Masochistic MC hurts himself to get stronger

>>51669013

Well, my current LOTW character is such but well...she's Yun Clan. She's a Mongolian Martial Artist. Graceful and obedient was not really in the cards for her.

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>>51670937

Don't forget the various archetypes of wuxia characters:

>The lovers who fight together
>The lone swordsman
>The idealist hero
>The bitter and jaded warrior
>The Drunken fool
>The wise teacher
>The firebrand female
>The Austere female warrior
>The Gentleman bandit
>The Kid
>The cripple
>The commander
>The comedy relief

Also, magic and fighting go hand in hand so kung fu wizards are definetly a thing, Nothing like casting spells while boxing against a fellow wizard.

>>51671622
You forgot the missile/dart specialist who invariably dies before the end. Seriously, use melee weapons if you want to live.

>>51671739

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N9RRzhFSv8

You sure about that?

>>51669013
Because wuxia is about DRAMA even more than it's about FIGHTING. Yes both of those things need to be capitalized.

After watching some old-school wuxia movies, I was surprised at how different they can be from more modern, arguably more heroic wuxia. I never really got D&D attempts to do the orient, but after seeing some King Hu movies I think an OSR game might be perfect for the tone. The penultimate battle in A Touch of Zen is all about using traps and surprise to slaughter an army.

>>51671834
The world used to be more brutal

And stories reflected that

>>51671834

When you start watching more you can kind of start to associate certain characters with classes which is one of the things I like about 5th because Paladins no longer have to be religious in nature.

For example, the hero in Bat without Wings would be a paladin in my opinion who has a holy Avenger called the Pearl Blade which was able to withstand the Bat Blades which could cut swords asunder.

>>51671797
Yeah, the dart guy fucking died. I bet the beard guy bit it too, just because he threw that die.

>>51665869
Stories of mundane heroes using martial arts to do near-impossible things.
Think of early dragonball without beam attacks and other supernatural magic shit.

>>51667449
Low Wuxia is just regular Wuxia...
High Wuxia is just Xuanhuan since you already are in magic teritorry.
And if you add the pursuit of becoming an immortal you get Xianxia out of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obnTAj8PFWQ

>>51669334
Is there a version with normal latin fonts?
These are just slightly hard to read.

>>51669785
So Xuanhuan?

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THE LAND IS CLOAKED IN DEEPEST BLUE
Is there any other Wuxia stuff like Thunderbolt Fantasy?

What are your guys thoughts on Hip-hop mix with Kung-fu?

I see it fitting the same way you have Metal/Rock doing epic songs about fucking Vikings and Conan -esque warriors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqgkCIKObIM

>>51672421
It's a perfect fit IMO.
I might be biased though as my formative years involved a lot of Bruce Lee, Wu-Tang, and comic books.

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Thought about running a Jade Empire game, but I haven't gotten around to stating the Styles from the game

>>51667658
Don't think along the lines of manipulation. Think more: empowered by and having the effects of. Metal is associated with fall, grief, separation, rigidity.

>>51668247
>>51668395
Wuxia is just a monk 1 fighter 19 build

>>51669959
>Arthouse
Hero
House of Flying Daggers
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

>Oldschool
Venom mob movies
Come Drink with Me

>newer school
Once Upon a Time in China series
Tai Chi Master
Drunken Master
Iron Monkey
(These are less Wuxia and more Wushu, but they are good)

>Newest school
The Man with the Iron Fists

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>>51672338
Not yet, but making one takes only a while.

The only difficulty is to find fonts that are roughly the same size.

This better? The font might be a little offputting, I'll try to see if I find a better one.

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>>51674777
>>51672338
Here's another version with a more "setting-friendly" font.

Couldn't fit that hyperactivity / weakness perfectly though.

>>51674325
Those don't transition well into either a style of combat or magical stuff.

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>>51675003
>he doesn't know how to draw power from grief

>>51675003

LotW's Secret Arts section might actually help here. Impenetrable rules, surprisingly good fluff/metaphysics primers.

How common in Wuxia is it to be completely willing to throw one's life away for a cause, no regrets? Also, how common is it for one to be not upset in the slightest about someone killing them or their friends because the believed in or respected the killer's cause?

I was reading Fist of the Blue Sky the other day and there was a scenario where all of the above came into play. There's this one guy who was protecting a small Jewish girl who had a list of locations of several important Hebrew treasures (this was set in the late 1930s, so of course there were Nazis trying to hunt her down). He was supposed to turn her over to a Jewish Officer in the French army in Hong Kong (it's a long story) for long term protection, he but was like "Nah, I feel a fatherly sort of affection for this little girl, I can't entrust her to anyone less capable than myself, so I'll get in a fight to death with this French Jew. If I die, then clearly he is stronger than I am and thus I am okay with him being her guardian. If he dies, then I'll have to keep looking for someone stronger than myself that actually has good moral character." The French Jew loses, but he isn't even upset and in fact he's just happy that the girl is safe and in capable hands. He presses a few pressure points on himself and is like "Okay, so I've got this friend, The Protagonist, he's way stronger than I am and I'd trust him with anything so he's totally the guy you're looking for. I just extended my lifespan by a few minutes, that should give me enough time to find The Protagonist so you can have your little death battle with him." And the protagonist doesn't even bear any ill will to the guy after this; hell, he even makes a point of sparing his life and directing him into a less murder-filled walk of life.

The whole thing was surreal, and yet I didn't have any trouble accepting it.

>>51675617

It's a key theme of Wuxia stories. Loyalty and honour being more valuable than your life is incredibly common.

>>51665832
For those interested in the delegations from abroad I'll present some of them them in the simplest terms possible with their basic concept and style, Not!Japan is the most fleshed out so far as they are the first ones to arrive and the players have actually encountered them

>Not!Japan
Yakuza Karateman - Think Hanayama and Doppo from Baki rolled into one he is scarred to fuck and nigh impossible to kill
Young Bishi Samurai - Most of his destiny is wrapped up in a Magic Katana that makes up for his lack of experience
Old Ninja Master - fights using a lot of secret arts and subterfuge he is a mystery for now
Aikido Chick - Aikido/Jujutsu user think Mikumo Kushinada from Histories Strongest Disciple Kenichi

>Not!America
RZA - Saber master and chill badass personality reminiscent of Afro Samurai's Ninja Ninja
HHH - Wrastller in a world where wrestling is viable, he is the current head of the UWF
Terry Bogard - Terry Bogard from KOF/Fatal Fury albeit with a different name
McCree/Erron Black - Shoot Bangs all around, he is basically my chance to show that Not!America has adapted guns into their martial arts

>Not!The E.U.
RDJ Sherlock Holmes - Bartitsu Cane Fighter and British Aristocrat has ties to one of the PCs via his family's history in Shanghai
Jean Claude Van Damme - Savatuer and parkour master
Italian Zorro - Taking fencing to an art form he is what he sounds like
Glasgow McPunchface - Brawling and general roughhousing are a way of life to this hooligan

>>51675617
That kind of thing happens all the time in wuxia

>>51675617
Read the analects bruh

Loyalty is one of the ultimate virtues

You can disagree with your superior, you can scold your superior, you can try to argue with your superior, but you NEVER abandon or betray them

Inferiors devote themselves to superiors (think Samwise Gamgee to Frodo). But in turn superiors must cherish and care for their inferiors.

Now that I think about it "subordinate" is a better word

>>51665869

If you really care, here's probably the best article I've ever read on the subject matter

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31707

>But that's long!

Then fuck off

>>51674330
Wuxia would be gestalt, everyone getting levels in monk.

>>51675836
>>51675711
>>51675891
That's the thing, though. Superior/subordinate never entered the picture here, and while there's definitely elements of honor and loyalty at play, what has me taken aback is the complete lack of underlying ill will. Having honor and loyalty and whatnot doesn't mean you can't have bad blood with someone for killing your friend, it just means that you put that bad blood aside when it's the right thing to do.

Also, how often does the more specific scenario of "getting into fights to the death because I have something that can only be entrusted to someone stronger than myself" come up?

>>51675038
How do you kill someone using the conceptual power of Autumn?

>>51676169
Well, first you start with the knowledge that Autumn is the time when things tend to wither and die and that Autumn is also the herald of Winter, which has even more to do with death, and then you work your way from there.

>>51665650
>As an ethnic Chinese that's also interested in Fantasy RPGs (and fantasy in general), that's exactly the thing that bugs me to no end as well. Every time there is a East (China)-meet-West fantasy setting, there's always the clichéd kungfu masters, staff-totting monkeys, pandas, temple dogs, Celestial Dragons/Emperors, Ying-Yang stuffs, and the damned repeating crossbow. Oh, and shugenja (which is actually Japanese) and spellcasting Wu Zen class (Wu Zen means "martial monk", which means it should be the name for baseline kungfu monk, not exotic spellcaster) as well. Many of these things hardly ever show up in actual Chinese fantasy works, even in high-magic setting.

A chinese fa/tg/uy told me a personal, in-depth perview of chinese fantasy/mythology, divided into layers that are more like power levels than genres.

Should I post them?

>>51676339
>staff-totting monkeys
To be fair, there was 1 staff-toting monkey that everybody knows about, so it's kind of like bitching that a Chinese film about the Roman empire depicted all the northern barbarians as Cimmerians.

So what do you think about Palladium's Mystic China?

>>51676339
Yes you should

>>51676339
The answer is always yes.
Unless it is no.

>>51676492
Nah, it's like bitching that all dwarfs are based on Gimli.

>>51676339
>>51676546
>>51676591
Okay. Note that these aren't mutually exclusive, and can be thought of as the kind of adventures one has as he ups his class.

>Note that I will mostly use D&D-influenced terms, as that is the system I am most familiar with.

>I tend to classify the typical "Chinese setting" into several "Worlds" or you can say "Layers" (I am sure there's a better word for it, but I can't think of one right now), which can be used as a framework to expand into a detailed setting.

>The first layer is what I called:

>1) "Base world" or "Overworld"
This is the layer/setting that is closest to its "standard medieval fantasy" equivalent, and the setting where you can throw in most non-magic Chinese cultural element(s) without worrying too much. If there's a conflict happening somewhere, it is mostly because of a war with foreign powers, or a civil war etc. This is the stage where a "Fighter Class" can shine most brightly. If there is a "East meet West" setting, this is also the easiest setting to use.

>Stuffs like rockets, repeating crossbows, heavy armours, shields, bows & arrows, fancy Chinese firearms/bombs/cannons, mundane emperor, imperial civil servants and mandarins etc belong in this layer.

>Classes like fighter, warlord (and/or strategist) also belong here. Base world tend to be no/low magic. Spellcasters, if they exist at all, are mostly limited to divination/adivsor role.

>You will also notice that I do not mention "Kung fu" and "martial arts" in this layer, because they don't (normally) belong here. Fighters in this layer act like...well, fighters, i.e. they whack at each others with the weapons they are good at, without shouting "iron heart surge" or whatnot.

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>>51676596
>2) "Jianghu (江湖)" or what I called "Low Wuxia" or "Underworld"
>This is the entry gate to the world of Wuxia, where you will start to find all sorts of martial arts stuffs. However at this layer it is still very much grounded in reality. Most factions that operate at this layer are the ancient Chinese equivalent of gangsters and mafias and triads. Wealth and vengeance, as well as the underworld's code of honour, is the prime motivation of conflict at this layer. Gang fights happen about as often as personal duels.

>Stuffs that belong to this layer: Wealthy river merchants (essentially "river mafia"), mountain bandits, rebels, salt peddlers, horse merchant alliance (again, essentially "horse trading mafia" of sort), caravan bodyguards (鏢局), martial arts throwing weapons, taverns. etc. Due to the prevalence of river merchants, underwater combat happens quite a lot.

>Classes that belong to this layer: Rogue. As long as you step into the territory of Wuxia, you will be dealing with rogues, rogue variants, and more rogues.

>Stuffs that do NOT belong to this layer: Heavy armours and shields, bows, crossbows and arrows, fighter class, firearms*. Low Wuxia also tend not to have legendary swords and somesuch.

>*As this layer is more grounded in reality, many stories set in early 20th century (Republican/Japanese occupation period) utilise this layer, and thus firearm are (sometimes) quite prevalent.

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>>51676618
>3) "Wulin (武林)" or what I called "High Wuxia"
>De facto Wuxia world. Borderline supernature martial arts such as jumping really high, short range ki blasts, internal energies and punch through metal doors etc are quite common here. Various martial art sects and religious organisations (instead of lowly criminal gangs like the Low Wuxia) pop up at this layer. Fame, romance and sex, legendary weapons, martial pursuits and secret manuals become the prime motivator of conflict. Otherwise some evil ominous cult wanted to dominate the Wulin world, causing all sort of mayhem.

>Personal duels, assassinations, and martial arts tournaments are much more common at this layer, although war between sects or against aforementioned evil cult are also common.

>Stuffs that belong to this layer: High powered martial arts, secret manuals, lost treasures, legendary (but usually not supernature) weapons, tournaments, "Wulin alliance", code of honour, religious organisations, evil cults, impossible but non-magical gadgets and traps ("Rapid fire thousand needle launcher" or "automaton wooden dummy", or something like that), weird poison and medicine ("it will kill you during the first day of next Chinese new year!" kind of poison), weird animals ("the toad that blood can cure all poison").

>Classes that belong to this layer: Rogue, assassin, and possibly swashbuckler, some sort of martial art-herbalist class. Some of the more exotic Wuxia archetypes, such as the crazy zitherist that cause you to go insane or mind control you with her music, or cult leader that control swarms of poisonous snakes, might fit into bard and druid class, albeit imperfectly. Also monk.

>Stuffs that do NOT belong to this layer: Most stuffs that do no fit in Low Wuxia also do not belong here. Which means no heavy armour and shield whatsoever, barring rare exceptions. No firearms and generally no magic (which mostly limited to Base World at the moment).

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>>51676642
The site of the guy which gave me this info: http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com

>As you can see, the worlds of Chinese fiction are generally distinct - a military general (fighter class), armoured to the teeth and wield a heavy war axe, will not generally show up and compete in a Wuxia tournament (remember Wuxia is mostly rogue class), and you won't generally see river merchant gangfights in a novel about massive civil war.

>Yet these layers also superimpose over each other. They can and do exist in the same setting/universe, as well as interact with each other. A military general might also be good at martial arts and influential in the Wulin world, Imperial government maintain a secret service agency that specifically deal with martial art sects, martial artist request the aid of river merchants (or more likely, just kick their arse and force them) to acquire a legendary sword sunken in a lake, strategist employing martial artist to assassinate political enemy, etc.

>These instances are actually quite common, although character without background in multiple layers (multiclass?) usually end up in a fish-out-of-water situation.

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>>51676673
>4) Xianxia (仙俠), or "Immortal Heroes"
>This is the layer where immortal swordsages flying around, aero-skateboarding with sword (yes, this is really, really common), fighting with remote-controlled swords, swinging swords that turn into dragons or frikkin' laser beams, etc.

>You will notice that I mention sword repeatedly (specially, Chinese double-edged straight sword, the Jian). Well because Taoist religion, which most of these fictions are based on, is really really fond of Jian, and thus most if not all characters in this layer will wield a Jian or two...or thousands.

>This is the high fantasy version of Chinese fiction, and most of the characters in this layer are immortals, immortals-in-training, or at the very least, larger-than-life magical heroes. Sects still exist in this layer, although they generally become full-on religious (typically Buddhist and Taoist, plus the evil cult). Prime motivators for conflict are usually due to the awakening of some ancient, Morgoth-level evil beings, disruption of the balance of light and darkness/Ying and Yang, etc.

>Magical beasts and plants, while they started to pop up in this layer, tend to be rare, and usually are simply magic version of real-life animals. These beasts do sometimes shapeshift into a more human form after enough training.

>Sometimes a particularly talented yound lad is chosen to become the protege of a immortal wiseman, or evil cult sacrificed entire village/city/kingdom/continent for their evil rituals, etc. However, once a character from previous three layers stepped into Xianxia layer, there's usually no turning back.

>Stuffs that belong to this layer: Immortals, magic swords, more magic swords, intelligent weapon (usually sword), magical evil cults, curse and cursed weapons (again, usually sword), supernatural poisons, magic, magical beast (such as giant magic snake etc), Chinese alchemy.

>Classes that belong to this layer: Swordsage, wizards, highly enlightened monks.

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>>51676698
>5) Chinese mythology
>At this layer, we deal with stuff like "Journey to the West", gods, buddhas, demons and monsters. Celestial emperors, heavenly court, divine champions, mythical beasts, and so on.

>This layer is to the Base World what Xianxia is to Wuxia. In a sense you can say the immortals and swordsages from the previous layer are civilians/underworld, while this layer is the government and the boss.

>The power level gap between this layer and the other layers is so vast that the death of one minor god can be the equivalent to edition change from D&D 3.5 to D&D 4. An escaped pet dog from heaven can be the very same prime evil that require the effort of entire Xianxia world (layer 4) to put down. Due to this power level gap, this layer tend to sit around doing very little, only occassionally sending divine aid to some mortals and stuffs.

>As it is quite similar to base world, only more magic (Celestial court can be as corrupt as its mundane counterpart, as this is the case in real Chinese mythology), it tend to interact with the base world layer moreso than other layers.

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>>51676713
>The analogue to level progression is at least partly intentional, although I have more of a "3.5e class tier list" in mind when I wrote that, althoug swordsage obviously isn't tier 1 or 2 in D&D setting (I forget to make it clear that the swordsage I was talking about isn't the same as3.5e swordsage in D&D).

>Making it a "low level beginner > mid level adventurer > high level heroes" progression can in fact work quite nicely. Despite what my previous email might indicates, there's actually no significant power gap between the "Base world" and the "Wuxia world". Only when you move up to magic stuffs does the power gap emerge. Good thing that "training really hard" and "killing enemy really hard" is indeed some of the many ways for a mundane to move into Xianxia layer or higher.

>While it might be shocking to some that a battle-hardened military general (i.e. fighter class) might be taken out by a Wuxia kungfu guy (i.e. a rogue class) in a head-on, 1v1 duel (in fictional world anyway), in reality they are merely good at different things. Throw a bunch of Kungfu guys to the battlefield, and they will be shot to pieces in no time (due to having no armour) or trampled by massive cavalry charge.

>(Note that High Wuxia is significantly more powerful than Low Wuxia.Many Wuxia novels do not make clear distinction between the two, although the difference is there)

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>>51676739
>3.5) Xiuzhen (修真) or "Cultivator" stories
>This is not a "layer" per se (and I don't like the name "cultivator", which I think is a faulty English translation), but rather a modern sub-genre of Xianxia novel, most commonly found in web-novels, light novels, and comics.

>To put it simply, it is basically a "level grinding story". The main character is more often than not a Base World layer nobody. By training, study, killing stuffs, sexing real hard, eating exotic stuffs, unearthing artefacts, and inheriting wisdoms and inner energies and life essense or whatever, the main character gradually move up the ladder/layer, eventually becoming an true immortal, god, or some sort of multiversal Supreme being.

>Cultivating, or forcibly extending one's lifespan, is obviously against natural law, so every cultivator must at some point face his own "Heaven's calamity" (basically a single target rock-fall-everyone-die event. In some cases, this is the result of Layer 5 gods actively trying to f**k with every single poor guy at layer 4). This can come in the forms of divine retribution, divine labours, training-gone-wrong, accidents, bad lucks, enemies, own inner demon emerging etc. If one managed to survive, he or she "level up", ascending into next level of power, otherwise he will perish. Depending on the writer, one might have to survive five to twenty calamities (or more!) to achieve full immortality.

>I think it is too influenced by modern MMORPGs and most of these works are trashes. However it does present an interesting and somewhat creative merge of modern RPG elements and classical Chinese fantasy fiction. Plus it gives a good excuse for the DMs to throw progressively powerful stuffs at the players.

>Due to the nature of this type of novels, the MC will spend a long time as an Immortal-in-training. Extremely powerful, but not quite there yet. Which is perfect if you don't want something too overpowered.

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>>51676754
>???) Chinese ghost(busting) stories
>Again not a layer, and not even a solid genre on its own. I just feel this is too good a material to pass up. At lower layer (Base World), we have the wandering Taoist exorcists trying to stop the Jiangshi (hopping corpse) menance, or a monk exposing a magic snake that shapeshift into a lady and try to seduce young man (Legend of the White Snake). At high layer, we have a minor god (Zhong Kui 鍾馗, look it up) catching demons that escaped hell.

>A good place to look for low-level mythical beasts to throw at the players in China-themed rpgs.

>Chinese ghost stories share many similarities with the gothic horror genre (vampire, werewolf, headless horsemen etc). Sometimes the monster/ghost is portrayed in a sympathetic light, while the hunter become bad guy, but otherwise (in RPG sense) they are not that different. Oh, the Taoist monster hunter tend to suck the monster into a container (usually a magic pouch, or gourd bottle) and then seal it inside, rather than (or in addition of) straight out impale its heart or cut off its head.

>Larger/High power version of these sealing container is the Zhen Yao Ta (鎮妖塔), or monster-sealing pagoda, basically the magic version of Arkham Asylum. Another function of Xianxia sects is to guard the pagoda...and yes, sometimes prison break does happen...

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>>51676781
>Wuxia code of conduct
> The concept of Wuxia code of conduct generally only apply to High Wuxia, as characters from Low Wuxia tend to be more pragmatic/down to earth. This code of conduct may vary from writer to writer, so I can only put up a general guideline:

>If A and B entered a duel, and there's no personal feud involved (yet), the older/more experienced party, or party with higher Wulin social standing (let's say A) will generally offer to let the other side (let's say B) attack him for 3~10 "moves" without retaliation. An offer in reverse/counter offer will be seen as great humiliation. An offer in absurd number ("I will let you attack me 10000s time") is also intentionally humiliating.

>In the above situation, A is supposed to let B attack him for 3~10 attacks (depending on his offer). He can evade and/or parry (depending on the writer, sometimes he cannot even parry) as long as he stand his ground.

>If A is forced to retaliate, getting hit by B, or forced to dodge/tumble away from the place he was originally standing before the quota runs up, he is considered humiliated or "losing face".

>Hidden weapon and poison are considered dishonourable/underhanded in a duel. Same goes for throwing sands in someone’s eye etc. In some settings, magic get the same treatment.

>Not that anyone will believe you, but “opps I slipped” is still a good excuse if you want to kill someone during a duel that’s supposedly not to the death. Doing this for too many times will cause someone to use the same excuse on you though.

>After a duel, the WINNING side is supposed to find excuse for the losing side to explain away his lose, in order to "save his face". Even if both parties and all bystanders know the real reason why someone is losing. Bragging around or humiliating the losing side is seen as stepping over the line.

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>>51676863
>On the other hand, the losing side is supposed to praise the martial prowess of the winner, EVEN if he used underhanded tactics to win (and every bystander know that). Finding excuses for youself or angrily accusing the winner of cheating is a good way to "lose face".

>Intentionally pickpocketing your rival during a duel, or using weapon to cut away his head/dress assessories without harming him during a duel, will be considered very offensive by the receiving party (who wouldn't?) as it means you are toying with him. Sometimes a "pickpocketing duel" might occur.

>Cutting off someone's hair/beard is considered equally offensive as cutting off someone's head (hair is SERIOUS BUSINESS!). Throwing weapon is generally immune to this rule, for some reason.

>The above two points can be done honourably in some cases, i.e. A has all the rights to kill B to enact vengeance or something, but choose to spare B instead, only cutting off some of B's hair as symbolism.

>If there is a fight between different sexes, female chest is off-limit to empty handed attack. Period. Even in a duel-to-the-death situation. Doubly offensive if one party is using something like "Eagle claw" martial arts to target the female chest, or anything that looks like he is trying to grope her. Likewise, intentionally slash apart female dress (without harming her) is a big no-no. ACTUALLY groping her is a surefire way to turn a friendly duel into a fight to the death, and invites bigger fishes to intervere/gank up on you.

>If there's no one looking, then there's no rule. If there's no one alive, then there's no one looking. (Good character will upheld rule regardless)

>Mad people follow no rules, and no rules apply to you when you are dealing with such people.

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>>51676877
>Killing one's own master is one of the most serious offenses in the Wuxia world. But the master has all the right to kill his own student without reason. If one such student is your sworn brother/adventuring party member etc and his master come and try to kill him...no, you are not supposed to intervere, UNLESS you have good reason to, or at least something that pass as an excuse ("he's gone mad!" Is a good one, since no rule applies to a mad man). You must convince other onlookers with your excuse though.

>Masters are not supposed to intervere a duel between students. IF they intervere, they usually just save their own student without attacking the other student.

>Students CAN intervere a duel between masters in some extreme cases, even attacking enemy master, although this tend to end badly for them.

>An open invite for eveyone at the scene to attack oneself can mean (a) he consider everyone at the scene so beneath him that they are not worth his trouble, or (b) he is cornered to the point that he's prepared to go all out. If (b) is the case, all Wuxia rules no longer apply to him (and everyone else fighting him).

>If you are adventuring, and you entered a town/city that is under the protection/care/territory of a certain sect, you are supposed to pay them a friendly visit, or at least notify them of your stay. Most sects will build some sort of reception hall (if not their HQ) in their territories. Failure to do so will be seen as an attempt to cause trouble. Religious sects and beggar sect tend not to hold any territory though, and they freely enter and leave the territories of other sects (well, because monks and beggars don't usually seek lodging in a tavern, which is THE brewing place of all sort of trouble).

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>>51676910
>If there are multiple sects (usually a Wulin/high Wuxia sect and several Jianghu/low Wuxia organisations) at the same city, pay visit to the top dog.

>The above rules will not apply to you if you are still a nobody and doesn't show up on their radar, or you are not from Wuxia layer/background. It WILL apply to you if you bring twenty armed followers with you though. That's why it is kind of hard to play as a warlord class in a wuxia setting. It STILL apply to you even if you are an imperial general on active duty.

>If you and your followers are too high leveled for them to touch you, you will be treated as a walking natural disaster instead (if you still refused to follow above rule). Sometimes entire city shut down as they wait for you to leave. This reaction is quite similar to what happen when a band of bandits stroll into an unguarded cowboy town.

>This may sounds like common sense, but disrupting a wedding or funeral procession is a big taboo. If you really have to do it, cover your face.

>Doubly so if you see a funeral procession that has the coffin coverred in red. (Chinese use white colour as mourning colour, and red as the colour of celebration. A funeral in red means that the dead person suffered extreme injustice, probably murdered without knowing who is the suspect. The victim's family is symbollically trying to turn the dead into a vengeful ghost so he can avenge himself).

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>>51676931
The Chinese concept of "face"1/2
>Tied directly to fame, and tangentially related to honour. However it has less in common with honor code concepts such as chivalry or bushido or noblise oblinge, and everything to do with social position and personal connection/sphere of influence. So if you are very very wealthy, or have power (martial or otherwise), sit on a high government position, have a drop dead gorgeous wife, know someone important in the government, doing a lot of good deeds etc, you will have a lot of good "face/fame".

>After you earned pass certain level of fame, you are expected to behave/treat others in certain way, and others not at the same level with you are also expected to treat you in certain way.

>The primary purpose of this face/fame is...well, demanding respect from others, as well as social bargaining chip that let you break the aforementioned Wuxia code or other code (within certain acceptable limit). For example, there's one guy that every one is trying to hunt down and you, for some reason, wanted to save him. If you have enough "faces", you can use it to basically demand everyone to step down. Everyone that heeds your demand is considered "selling you face" or doing you a favour, while those that ignore you are considered offending you. So now you have an excuse to kick their arse.

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>>51676944
The Chinese concept of "face"2/2

>However, doing this repeatedly cause you to use up your "face currency". Those people that "sold face" to you may return someday and demand some reparation or reward or favour as well.

>Also, while all "faces" have some base value, different people place different importance on different type of "face". Son of a wealthy merchant will get very little respect from a martial artist, because the martial artist places more value on "face" related to martial prowess, influence of someone's sect etc. OTOH, a wealthy merchant that donated most of his wealth to do good deeds will earn a lot of respect from a good/righteous martial artist, even if said merchant know zero kung fu.

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>>51676961
The Chinese concept of "face"3/4 actually

>Despite the convenience of having many "face currency", it is still just a social bargaining chip and not some magical Geas spell. Using the currency usually means you are giving up some long term benefit for short term, immediate gain.

>Taking the previous example, when you step in to protect that guy, and put your bargaining chip on the table, you are essentially forcing every pursuer to reconsider whether the benefit of hunting down that guy outweigh the risk of getting into trouble with you. Plus if they stop now, they are "selling you face"/doing you a favour. These pursuers have everything to gain and nothing to lose, and they don't even have to do anything!

>However if the pursuer has some personal feud (let's say that guy killed the pursuer's entire family) that he want to settle, and will satisfy at nothing other than the death of that guy, then all the "face currency" in the world probably (but not always) won't help.

>As for you, by simply associating yourself with a guy that everyone is trying to hunt down, you are already "losing face". Asking everyone to step down is also a form of requesting for favours, so you use up your "face currency" even more. If someone refused to stop due to personal vengeance or something, and you forcibly beat him down, you are losing even more "face". So this bargaining chip is not something that can be used lightly. This is the reason why intentionally humiliating others (cause them to "lose face") is a big deal, and many Wuxia codes of conduct revolve around this.

>Oh, in some cases, another person with the same level of face/fame step in, and put HIS bargaining chips on the table, demanding others to ignore your demand. In that case you and him.....well, duke it out to decide.

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>>51677039
The Chinese concept of "face"4/4
>I always think of Chinese "face" as something like a political/diplomatic facade that no one really believe in or even care about, but decided to play along anyway. To this end it is the complete opposite of chivalric ideals and bushido. While chivalric code is the code of conduct that every knight should strive for but only really exists in an idealised/romantised "bygone age", Chinese code is very much real and already there for ages, and the society at large is ready to force its totalitarian, twisted, ugly and uncaring rules down your throat, by peer pressure or even force if needed be. There's a Chinese idiom "As long as you are in Jianghu, your body does not belong to you".

>In other word, a Chinese fantasy/Wuxia world is a world where everyone tries to force everyone else to act in a Lawful Stupid way (the "law" being Wuxia code/"face"), but thinks the law does not apply to himself. Thus powerful people or people with the right connection can get away breaking a lot of the laws.

>(In high fantasy setting/layer, at times the players will have to face the f**king buddha/god/immortal/whatever standing between them and the chaotic evil dark lord, and the gods will throw their bargaining chip, asking the player to stop/look the other way.)

>So even "law-abiding" players are expected/encouraged to break the code, or at least exploit some loophole once in a while.

>(In a sense you can remove everything I said before, every martial arts, Wuxia guys, Chinese gods and immortals and dragons, and replace them with beholders, aliens and kobolds, but keep the "code" in place and the setting can still be recognizably Chinese.)

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>>51677061
>"Cape buster agency" is one of the many ways for a Base World government to deal with the Wuxia world. It also features heavily in many Wuxia novels, especially those set in Ming Dynasty (because Ming Dynasty had the most famous and iconic secret service agency, the Jingyiwei). Although like anything that came from the Government, they tend to be painted in extremely unfavourable light, usually outright evil. In Wuxia setting, these agencies usually act like a non-religious version of the Spanish Inquisition though.

>You can also reference the Tales of the Legendary Judge Bao Zheng and his four "Arresters". (I don't know the proper English translation, but think these arresters as the ancient Chinese equivalent of Police Sheriff)

>In both cases the government agents act like spies, inspectors, assassins and law-enforcement, with equipment you would expect from such professions, and the agents usually act like typical Wuxia guys. But it does allow you to bring armed followers and bust into people's house as long as you have the required paperworks/warrant.

>Ming Dynasty Jinyiwei was almost the perfect match for WH40k Inquisition. Worse yet the Jingyiwei wasn't the only secret service agency around... There were also Eastern Depot, Western Depot, and the Inner Depot, each more powerful and corrupt than the next. (Jingyiwei was run by guards/military men, while the other three were run by eunuchs).

>You can think of the Depots as different Ordos (Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos etc), and Jinyiwei as their chamber militant. This analogy isn't completely accurate, but close enough.

That's all folks.

Thanks for the loredump, that's all really interesting!

It helps contextualise LotW's setting a lot, too. Most of the various organisations fit into one or more of the archetypes you described, although LotW seems to intentionally jumble up the low and high Wuxia levels, probably to add variety to the game.

Please vote:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html

Archived thread "Chinese fantasy/mythology"

>>51675789
>Glasgow McPunchface - Brawling and general roughhousing are a way of life to this hooligan
Trade that shit for a german (or french or british) knight whose martial arts is based on using a two hander and having heavy armor. HEMA is a thing, and a pretty cool thing at that.

>>51676107
>what has me taken aback is the complete lack of underlying ill will.
I might be wrong here, but as I understand, fights in Wuxia are as much physical conflicts as discussions about whose perspective is right. So being defeated doesn't just mean that the other guy was stronger, but can also mean that their worldview is more convincing.

>>51667658
If I was a Metal-related Xia, my go-to basic styles would be Iron Shirt and Iron Palm, a tough body and hard-hitting strikes.

Of the Five Animal styles, Crane is associated with Metal. It's not the most obvious of associations, it looks kinda girly even, yet Metal is a Yin element, so it can be my martial art where Yin is most powerful. And damn if I won't be smashing people with my ironed fingertips with it, whether they're surprised I can use it, or not.

The archetypal Metals are silver and gold, Silver Crane sounds cool.

>>51674325
>Metal is associated with fall, grief, separation, rigidity.
True but there's a positive emotion too to it, Courage.

The White Tiger of the West in astronomy is associated with Metal too, so we have yet another animal style available.

As powerfully Yin as this White Tiger is - but compared to the ultimate symbol for Yang, the Dragon. And you wouldn't call a Tiger a pussy to its face if you weren't a Dragon, would you?

In Hung ga there is a Tiger Crane Paired Form Fist and an Iron Wire Fist, both sound very suitable for our purposes.

The idea of Iron Wire is that you get as pliable as a wire and as strong as iron, in case you wanted a Metal Xia with an internal style that wasn't always Iron Shirt.

>>51678235
That probably had something to do with it; the series also made mention that fighting was the purest way of two martial artists expressing their thoughts and feelings to each other.

I think LotW is very cool and I don't want to break up the party flow here, but I did just want to pop in and say I've had a huge amount of fun running Wuxia stuff in GURPS.

It seems like the opposite of what you would expect, but it worked great for me. Fights preceded by duels of will, high-flying wire-fu triple flips off of rooftops into groups of mook martial artists, masters dueling while perched precariously on flexing treetops, style analysis and familiarities/strengths/weaknesses, 'secret'/legendary/forbidden/named moves and techniques, exploitation of anothers relationships or emotional weak points to cause doubt and distraction, fights coming down to willpower, commitment and a matter of inches. The list goes on, but it just "felt" great in play.

I dunno man, I'm not saying it would work for anyone else and it's definitely a different style of game than LotW, but I had an absolute blast. A testament to the system's flexibilities for me, in how well it adapted to such a narrative/cinematic/high-flying style.

Like I said, not a game for everyone particularly with this genre, but I just wanted to gush a little.

>>51678405
Oh, and of course all the different ways to implement Chi manipulation, inner/outer techniques, different super weird or cinematic abilities, paralyzing the flow in an opponent with certain moves, Chi-based struggles, etc.

Anyway, done gushing now, carry on gents.

>>51678244
Well, I can see our guy starting with Iron Shirt and Iron Palm, a no-nonsense attitude, and a poor lateral thinking, and by the power of meeting the right people and character development, and witnessing much nonsense, working on this Tiger Crane and Iron Wire, becoming more flexible in style just as he becomes so in his spirit.

>>51676931
>>51676910
>>51676877
>>51676863
>>51676944
>>51676961
>>51677039
>>51677061
The way ideology works in Chinese settings is the most difficult thing to get into for 21st century Westerners, but it is also the most amusing and rewarding when you manage to do it right.

>>51666028
That game sounds interesting; what are your PCs like, what are they doing in this Hell city?

>>51667674
>>51667604
Thank you so much!

I was watching The Book and the Sword and Legend of the Condor Heroes on YouTube a while back, until they got hit by a copyright strike.

>>51678915
It seems to be less of an issue for Chinese shows than others, but yeah, always a threat on YouTube.

>>51678908

Currently the PC's are participating in a tournament, before now they'd raided a temple of the Fire Doctrine masquerading as a club and entertainment venue and participated in a battle over the War Stage, a public amphitheatre where people attend just as much for the fights between the different groups of performers as they do the performances themselves.

The PC's are-

A renegade of the Yun Clan, the exiled daughter of the Glacier Maiden who rejects her mothers nature and teachings and seeks the old ways of the Yun.

A brilliant but proud young Doctor who fled to hell after an experiment went wrong, leaving them with animal features and a lot more humility- As well as the lingering interest of the Beast Court, a selection of animal-theme Xia who make their home in one of the wilder parts of Hell.

A Dragon Pirate loan shark (literal on the shark), a powerful and dominant woman who both looks out for her families interests and tries to establish her own strength at every turn.

A crippled and cursed girl who seems frail and sickly but whose boundless wells of Corrupt Chi give her incredibly destructive power if she is angered.

A fiery and passionate warrior of justice who entered Hell seeking a friend of theirs who was lost, and who remains to try and do some good amidst the chaos and horror of the city.

And not yet introduced, a victim of the Black Lotus whose body was warped by their experiments but whose Wood Chi allowed them to survive, breaking out and trying to find a new place in the world after their ordeal.

It's pretty damn fun so far.

>>51678997
Interesting; you allow PCs with Corrupt chi? I thought that was a villians only thing?

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I'm a national level Sanda fighter, I have some experience with southern wushus and I've practiced a lot of shuai jiao.

Ask away if you want to know something (specially if it's technique related). Right now I can't be arsed to write some history or ideas for campaigns, but they'll come in a few hours maybe. I'm in this board for /wip/ honestly

I don't claim to be an authority in the matter. Just a helpful anon.
Cheers

>>51679103
forgot to tell, I'll answer in a few hours, gotta go now.

Whatever happened to WulinSage? I miss his quests.

>>51679029

It depends. Corrupt Chi is generally villainous but I like the story options of good, heroic people cursed with dark power like that. The struggle to retain their identity and sense of right and wrong with the insidious temptation of tapping into that power always there, always beckoning.

It's fucked her over pretty bad so far. During the War Stage fight, she unleashed her corruption and nearly killed her opponent for no reason- People do die in Hell, but generally fights aren't to the death, so nearly killing someone over such a meaningless brawl has given her a really bad reputation.

>>51679103
I wanted to ask on how is the difference between Wushu's flashy forms and Sanda's syncretic, pragmatic sport fighting perceived.

When one thinks of Kungfu, he doesn't usually think of a style of kickboxing with wrestling and judo thrown in the mix, doesn't he?

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>>51665897
>kung-fupunk.

This phrase, however stupid, would apply to Feng Shui. Which has the potential for wuxia stories among its bizarre and sprawling setting.

>>51679127
Interesting. I'm actually curious more about the character; the sort of 'dark powered person struggling to find light' bullshit is right up my alley as a storyteller and finding inspiration by ruthlessly stealing other people's ideas is never a bad thing

>>51679156

She's the daughter of a man who seemed to be a member of the Black Lotus Society or Vile Rain Cult, two of the Banes of the Wulin in LotW with strong connections to Corrupt Chi. He was a kind father, but taught her Corrupt Kung-fu and sorcery from a young age. It's hard to tell whether he was trying to equip her to control it when she grew up, or actively working to make her powerfully corrupt.

Either way, nobody will ever know for sure. A Heaven Hunter found her father, killed him and took her into his custody. Realising how much Corrupt knowledge the child had and how powerful her Chi was, it was debated whether they should kill her... And they ended up compromising. Her arms were crippled, her eyes blinded and her Chi bound and sealed, such that she might not be a danger to herself or others.

Whether they went too far, or not far enough, is hard to say. After years of captivity, she managed to channel Corrupt Chi and dark sorcery once again, using it to escape and flee to Hell, the only place she felt she could be safe from the hunters.

She's an oddly cheerful person, despite it all, but despite her best efforts and those of her friends, she also harbours a lot of self loathing and self doubt over her nature, whether she can truly exist in the world without being a danger to others, whether the Heaven Hunters were right to do what they did after all.

>>51679219
Interesting; that doesn't sound like much of a traditional Wuxia hero, admittedly, but I like it. Do the other PCs trust her? It sounds like she'd not be very trustworthy in general, more a person to keep an eye on than an actual friend.

>>51679339

Yeah, I'm intentionally eschewing convention in a few places. Wuxia defines the defaults of the setting, but Hell is a place for breaking rules and doing things differently.

As for the party... It's mixed. She's earned some warmth from them for her personality and some sympathy for her condition, but I don't think any of them entirely trust her or are comfortable with what she's capable of.

>>51679389
Does that cause too much friction? I'd be worried about the chances of the entire party turning on one character and making the player have a bad time.

>>51679432

It's not something I'd allow every player to do, but in this case I trust the player and the group to make it work, and up to now it's led to some really interesting roleplaying and some pretty emotional situations.

>>51679471
Oh yeah? I don't want to seem too pushy, but I'm curious, got time for a short scenario storytime?

>>51679137
>When one thinks of Kungfu, he doesn't usually think of a style of kickboxing with wrestling and judo thrown in the mix, doesn't he?

Not at all! it's a common misconception.

And to answer your other question, they are completely different when it comes to fighting, but the approach is pretty much the same in terms of training and discipline. In fact, we train side by side in the gym (sometimes it gets scary to spar with a dude practising with a sword besides you)

And believe it or not, no kung fu practitioner in his right mind thinks he knows what is he doing fighting in Sanda, your REALLY need to do Sanda to fight Sanda. Besides self defence, that they really know much more about than us Sanda fighters.

I don't know if I answered your question. Some inspo incoming right now.

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Bökh! That's the Mongolian version of Shuai Jiao. The ancient vesion of it had headbutts and head "wrestling".

And it is said they used to wear horse leather helmets and sometimes with horns even.

>>51679524

Well, the clearest recent case was the person she nearly killed.

In the aftermath she was distraught, and while her friends comforted her to a degree... They were also equally afraid or angry at her, the doctor in particularly was livid and told her to stay out of her clinic while she took the girl back there to get better.

Things were pretty rough for her for a while, but she eventually visited the recovering Xia to apologise, grovelling and making herself out to be dirt... And was rather shocked when the response was 'Stop being so pathetic'.

This injured, still recovering Xia just stared at her and told her to stop being such a loser and moping all the time. That if she wanted to make it up to her or not do such bad things then she should hold her head high and actually try instead of worrying, panicking and just making things worse.

By that point, her friends had had time to cool off and were there to support her again, and there's some hope for the future, but the lingering doubts and fears from it continue, especially amongst those who don't know her personally.

There's other things going on, but a lot of them are ongoing plot hooks I don't really want to elaborate on for fear of spoiling the people in the game, since I know most of them browse /tg/.

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I can't really explain to you guys how much I love shuai jiao. It is something else. Check out their ancient tournaments.

Also check Lei Tai for inspiration, lots of people died in that style of arena. Reality exceeds imagination.

>>51675955
Thank you for this it was a great read

This is been one of the best threads I've seen on /tg/ is ages.

>>51675955
Thank you, this is lovely.

>>51680390
/tg/ Wuxia threads always seem to go really well

>>51677061
>>In other word, a Chinese fantasy/Wuxia world is a world where everyone tries to force everyone else to act in a Lawful Stupid way (the "law" being Wuxia code/"face"), but thinks the law does not apply to himself. Thus powerful people or people with the right connection can get away breaking a lot of the laws
Uhhh, that seems pretty universal, anon...

>>51680508
Considering the Chinese ideals of law, this is still worth mentioning - even the Chinese Devil follows a strict code of conduct.

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A new challenger approaches!

Proceeds to rape, murder, and commit other acts of over the top evil because Japanese.

I like China threads. They remind me of Africa threads before they got immediately attacked by shitposters.

Try to mention China on any other board and you get retarded faggots screaming that we're a hivemind with no empathy.

>>51680958

Just the other day /tg/ actually had a really great thread on Arabic and Middle Eastern fantasy stuff. Sure there was some trolling and bullshit, but a lot of it was really interesting and sincere, with some people curious about it and other people who seemed to know their shit.

>>51680949
Rule of thumb. In Chinese fiction the Manchu are idiotic brutes with delusions of grandeur. The Japanese are seen as handrubbing savages who despise all that is good.

>>51680984
>delusions of grandeur

How is it a delusion when they took over the entire country for centuries?

>>51680984
>In Chinese fiction the Manchu are idiotic brutes with delusions of grandeur.
So should we or should we not feel bad for making them the face of the yellow peril?

>>51680949
Xia vs. samurais would be interesting if told by someone who isn't biased towards one side.

>>51681050
Doesn't matter. They were considered filthy Gweilo into the 20th century.

>>51681118
Easy peasy

Ronin becomes a pirate, ends up in Zhongguo, and runs into a Xia by fate

>>51681225
I prefer

Japanese monk/monks go on a pilgrimage to China and India, then bring some martially-trained Chinese monks back to Japan with them for a while, who of course run into some samurai by fate.

>>51679681
Very interesting. What's the player think of all this? I couldn't imagine being happy playing someone with that degree of self-loathing, but to each their own.

>>51681335
Isn't it up to the player if they want to play self-loathing character.

>>51681335

The player enjoys that kind of thing, although I'm also trying to make sure they still have their share of fun times and awesome moments. But they and I are of similar mind in terms of suffering, that if done well it can be really interesting, creating excellent storytelling and roleplaying opportunities.

>>51679103
Me again.
I'll tell you about southern/northern Kung Fu.

Northern Kung Fu had a lot more influence in Shaolin Kung Fus(from now on, kung fu: KF), and that's partly because of the distribution of the temples. It's very easily differentiated because of it's laser focus on kicks, that's what it excels at. I've been told the robes and clothes were bigger in general and made for better tactics.

Southern KF, well... It focused more on boxing, meme KF's like wing chun are a good representation of that. Now here is the thing. The distinction between KFs goes much further than that. We have to separate military KF (with each dynasty changing the style based on the context) and family styled KF (each family training a separate set of techniques).

The non animalistic Taos (like katas) were part of military programs to teach in a normalised way how to use different weapons. And they succeeded immensely. All animalistic forms are a Shaoling thing desu.

>>51681225
Always wanted to run something like this. How well does Wuxia match up to Japanese Chanbara? Always wanted to play in a world like this.

I've always been a sucker for tales about losers who are inexplicably good at martial arts who agree to protect a village from gangsters/bandits and end up falling in love with the villagers despite initially planning to screw/cheat/betray them

>>51681433

Kung-fu Hustle is one of the best modern interpretations of this, for me.

>>51681429
>meme KF's like wing chun

How many years did you train before your master taught you to throw shade that swiftly?

Chinese music - Good for the epic moments and comedic moments

Japanese music - Good for tragic or tender moments

Korean music - Good for calm daily life scenes

>>51681433
7 Samurai is an oldie but a goodie

>>51681600
I get a bit sick of all the tributes/knockoffs of it though.

>>51681429
Is baguazhang considered northern or southern?

>>51681431
In a very general sense they're compatible. They're both about the ideals of good confucian warriors.

But Chanbara is darker than Wuxia and has more of a "feel don't think" perspective. There's a Japanese proverb about a gentleman scholar killed by a burglar, his wits didn't save him where common sense about "killing intent" would.

Still, the idea of "face" is a very general east asian concept.

>>51681676
That would be northern. But it's not necessarily part of the distinction I've mentioned, since it's an internal martial art (like Tai Chi). I think it was done in some mountains up north. Don't take my word for it though. Its moves are very similar to other KF too.

>>51681531
Years of getting punched in the face (and developing problems in the jaw) and then seeing those retards train really accumulates anger towards their ways. Also it really became a meme and now any chinese looking seasonal farmer can teach in the west how to wing chun.
In its purest form its a competent self defence style (not that good at fighting though), but good luck finding a proper Sifu.
Look a great Wing Chun performance by Sifu Dimitri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOcl7JVJsh0

>>51681748
Chinese folk think it takes intelligence to be good at the various techniques. The hero is often a "Kung Fu genius".

Japanese folk think the best fighters rely on instinct. Hence the "idiot hero" archetype. Yamato Damashii and all that.

>>51680693
>>51680693
My point was that those in power make rules for everyone ELSE to follow; but ALWAYS have exceptions for themselves, be you in China or Myanmar or East Rutherford New Jersey.
The Devil only follows the rules he is made to follow by Devils more devilish than him.....

>>51682016
This is a damned interesting dichotomy: how did it come about? What are the implications here? Is this a recent thing, or has it always been part of the 'canon'?

>>51667725
I'd love to see your notes on this.

>>51682016
That is an interesting observation
I have noticed a lot of Wuxia characters being depicted as intelligent since most of the time the more powerful Qi techniques in a story are complicated as hell and difficult to understand or perform. And that's not even bringing the often complex interactions the various characters and factions have with each other that the protagonist must navigate

Japanese characters particularly manga characters are often all Guts! and only succeed through being too stubborn to fail and through the convoluted asspulls the author needs to make that victory happen

>>51682596

The humble peasant hero is also a thing that happens in Wuxia, though.

>>51682606
But is the humble peasant an idiot? Does he just brute force his way through? Or does he use brains? Or develop his brains?
I am curious about this difference, too. Where did these two styles of 'hero' come from, and why?

>>51682623
>>51682606
My understanding is that the peasant hero is still a genius, he's just uneducated.

>>51682666

I think the idea is that their "intelligence" allows them to pick up on difficult techniques quickly or teach themselves when they learn out of a manuel which is also a common thing in Kung-Fu.

>>51682666
This is what I have found more often than not in wuxia stories I've read
When a "peasant hero" is depicted he is still fairly intelligent if uneducated, so while he is by no means an idiot his knowledge base tends to be limited

>>51682666
>just uneducated
Ok. And the japanese 'brute force' characters are the dumb ones - so, is this a japanese take on the wuxia hero? Are the japanese mocking the wuxia heroes, or are they adding to the concept and mocking themselves? Or something else?

>>51682739

I don't think of it as mocking. I think back to reading the book of 5 rings and think of it more as persistance will lead to mastery which eventually turns into effortless effort which, arguably, is a goal of every form of martial arts where your techniques come naturally because you've drilled them into your very being such that accumlated experience allows you to do other things

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>>51682606
True. But the Wuxia hero is often a diamond in the rough.

He may be a poor hillbilly or street urchin but he's NOT stupid. This serves as a means of establishing his character when a supposedly stronger fighter mocks him or calls him "trash" (why do Wuxia badguys LOVE this word?) before attacking. Then the shit talker gets his ass whooped or verbally BTFO.

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So what is the view towards authority such as the Emperor and Imperial officials/elders?

I'm kind of working on the stereotypical idea that bureaucracy and lawfulness is taken to a religious level for a setting I'm trying to take but many Wuxia style hero's are equally very humble and respectful but otherwise are go getters who act on their own initiative when the situation calls for it?

Is it possible to have a sort of attitude where "We respect the laws because nothing is possible if all is chaos but when action is needed action will be taken"

I suppose I'm not really articulating what I'm trying to get at just right but *shrugs* Here's a cute kung-fu girl.

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>>51682596
What sounds like an asspull to westerners is perfectly valid to the Japanese. All humans are born with "Musubi": the divine spark. We all have the potential to reach godhood through hard work and righteous living. Like a baby bird who can instinctively fly, but needs to hop and hop and hop before he succeeds. Combine this with a Confucian culture and we understand things better.

The villain in Japan is typically on another level compared to the hero. He's arrogant, cold, and realistic. He shows up early in the story to BTFO our hot blooded idiot and let us know what we're fucking with. Like how in Confucian society a merchant doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against a gentleman scholar. But the plucky hero never gives up and taps into his true potential. After a big lightshow he ascends to the level of the villain. Like how in Confucian society you could only succeed by ascending to the level of your superiors. The hero shows off his natural ability to compete and that's when the whole "SONNA BAKANA!!" show occurs. Villain unleashes his ultimate form and the hero wins by virtue of his righteous karma and the support of everyone who helped bring out his superior ability.

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>>51682943
>that's when the whole "SONNA BAKANA!!" show occurs
That never gets old to me.

>>51682223
>>51682223
The gentleman scholar ideal of Confucius. Even if he doesn't brag about it, he should be able to use his intelligence to its' fullest potential. Y'know the whole "Reflection, Imitation, Experience" proverb.

The Japanese always had a notion of Yamato Damashii but it fell to the wayside through the feudal era, with Buddhism & Confucianism playing the dominant role in culture. Not to say that it was entirely forgotten, the Samurai behaved socially like good confucians but in battle they were able to cultivate a japanese philosophy of combat. You shouldn't take any more than 7 breaths before striking for instance. When the Japanese were introduced to the idea of nationalism by Europeans they wanted to create a religion/society distinctly Japanese yet modern. So they suppressed Buddhism and Confucianism, mostly by forcing them into a Japanese Shinto frame. Previously they were seen as equals.

Yamato Damashii means fighting the odds and perseverance. Even if it's fucking retarded. Kamikaze are one result of Yamato Damashii. We don't need your goddamned Chinese book learnin' round these parts.

Japanese heroes beat dudes who trained for 10,000 years because they always "had it in them". Chinese heroes beat dudes who trained for 10,000 years because they're JUST THAT SMART.

Japanese folk say "Ganbatte!" (Do your best!) rather than Good Luck. One small example of Yamato Damashii...also part of the reason Japs work themselves to death. They actually think it's noble to try hard even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

>>51682793
Musashi beat swordsmen to death with sticks. Persistent swordsmen. Musashi was a genius, not an idiot. I don't think we can talk Musashi if we are discussing GUTS!, do you?

>>51682975
Yes it does, it really does

>>51683029
>Japanese folk say "Ganbatte!" (Do your best!) rather than Good Luck.
Huh, I actually remember some article (can't find it, so maybe the entire article was bullshit) claiming that the whole "Shou ga nai" expression was based on an underlying sense of fatalism inherrent in Japanese culture.

>>51683029
>Japanese heroes beat dudes who trained for 10,000 years because they always "had it in them". Chinese heroes beat dudes who trained for 10,000 years because they're JUST THAT SMART.
hmmm.
One of these seems to say: "just persevere and you'll win, trust me: keep beating your head against that wall, and that wall will fall! (hehe)"
And the other seems to say: "get smart and you'll win: don't beat your head against that wall, that's stupid: here's a hammer."
Interesting.

>>51683038

You don't have to be stupid to do GUTS! I can't remember the guy he was fighting but Byakuya is a good example of what I'm trying to get at. He was fighting the dude who could insert himself into someone or something's past and basically influence their memories or learn things about them so he knew how to counter Byakua's Bankai. This forced Byakuya to do something crazy like grabbing several thousand blade shards and hadouken them into the dudes stomach to win.

>>51682925
Look at it like this.

There's a Chinese saying "the mountains are tall...and the emperor is far away". Basically meaning do what you must as long as the big authority figure won't know.

The Emperor is revered all across East Asia. Literally the representative of the divine Emperor on earth, if not a deity himself. He's never a corrupt jerkoff.

Wuxia stories are usually about people who operate outside the normal laws anyway. The world of Wuxia is like the criminal underworld. It's a parallel society. But as a general rule "Do as the Romans do" depending on the situation. Of course Confucianism permeates both, its interpreted differently.

>>51683038
Musashi realized that no matter inherently talented you are, at the end of the day you need to apply effort, and lots of it. Like, my dad knew he wasn't the smartest person in his class, but he was smart enough that he made the top 10 when he worked harder than everyone else.

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>>51683116
Look forward to the day the entire anime industry it outsourced to China. Instead of sweaty muscular men screaming we'll get warriors playing 4 dimensional chess on the battlefield. The average mecha anime will be full of phrases along the lines of "I know that he knows that I know that he knows that..."

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>>51683094
Pretty much. If you don't "have it in you" just try harder. If that doesn't work, too bad, maybe in the next life. Vegeta understands how it feels.

This is part of why the Japanese went full Nazi during WWII. The Japanese islands are holy, the center of the world and home of the blessed children of the Gods. Being Japanese by itself means you "have it in you" more than everyone else.

The Chinese attitude about conquest was more "Look at those poor retards, they'll never be as good as us but they should at least be civilized with our vast learning"

>>51683169
>The average mecha anime will be full of phrases along the lines of "I know that he knows that I know that he knows that..."
If my experience with mechwarrior online is any indication, it'll be more like
>come on, take a peak over that ridge already
and other such "waiting for the other guy to make a dumb move" scenarios

>>51683136
Still, tho: the 'japenese' model seems to be encouraging blind ragey berserker-type action. Rage enough, and you will win.
In reality, that method leads to failure. You can beat a wall all day and not make a scratch; or, you can knock out that main support beam with a light tap and watch the whole wall collapse by itself.
What I'm trying to nail down is this: I see why a series of stories would emphasize education and intelligently solving problems; what is the point or lesson to be learned from emphasizing brute-force unthinking emotional explosions?
To put it another way: I see why the confucian ideal of scholarship is praised; why is the non-confucian emotionally unbalanced ideal praised? What are those stories trying to tell us?

>>51683409
I could see it being a misinterpretation of trying to remind people that, yes, talent certainly counts for something, but so does hard work, so you should never rely entirely on talent.

>>51683162
>Musashi realized that no matter inherently talented you are, at the end of the day you need to apply effort, and lots of it
I think you've hit the nail, anon! 'Inherent talent' refers to the emotional, 'dumb', do it til it works hero. The 'intelligent' hero is the one who practices, who trains, who learns, through continuous effort and perseverance.

>>51683438
Sounds reasonable, very nice!

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What sets Xia apart from other people is their sense of individuality. A true Xia is a nail too stubborn to be hammered down. All the traditional virtues of Xia are the exact same as the Confucian virtues save the stance on individuality. Xia consider personal loyalty more important than even filial or political loyalty, which is pretty damn shocking.

Xia are wanderers and drifters. Mountain hermits and alleydwellers. Xia can be the mysterious old man who stops by the tea house every afternoon but nobody knows where he's from, the beautiful lady who causes gangsters to cringe and leave the peasants alone when she passes by, the handsome youth who failed exams and is rumored to live in the forest where he meditates, etc. They are for normal society, but not of it.

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A new challenger approaches!

Proceeds to lose instantly because the idea of a Westerner rivaling a xia is preposterous.

>>51683587

I like the idea of the occasional foreigner managing to attain the rank of Xia, or something vaguely equivalent. Channelling their homelands lost martial traditions or adapting to the ways of the country they find themselves in, they can provide an interesting alternative perspective on things.

>>51683563
>They are for normal society, but not of it.
>FOR society, not OF it.
And I would go further: NOT for society as it stands; but for a BETTER society based on MORE HUMAN values.

>>51683587
>Proceeds to lose instantly because the idea of a Westerner rivaling a xia is preposterous.
Naww, that's not right: a LOT of antagonists are 'foreign' - and a LOT of them are VERY powerful in the wuxia 'techniques' of their own devising. Foreigners DO have and use the power; just differently.

>>51683656
Good observation

If you read Water Margin you see that many Chinese people didn't hate society in general. It wasn't a "HURR HURR FUGG GUNVYOOSHIS" attitude. It was "Hey, this society sucks for the following reasons. And Confucius said that leaders should be righteous to ensure a healthy society.". Mandate of Heaven basically means if the ruler is a piece of shit, the gods will be pissed and make disasters happen constantly, giving rise to the need to replace the dynasty.

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>>51683690
It also provides a great opportunity for differing philosophies of combat because Renaissance swordsmen liked to base their techniques on anatomical and geometric knowledge, thus leading them to think of what they were doing as "scientific" in a sense.

>>51672248
>Think of early dragonball without beam attacks and other supernatural magic shit.
So not Dragonball at all then?

>>51683842

I'm surprised this isn't more of a thing. A romantic who re-invents ancient fighting techniques and uses a shield and short sword or, like you said, has knowledge of medicine and uses it in the fencing skill to maximize their abilitiy and increase the deadliness of their skill or basically Greco-roman philsospher-wrestler/warriors.

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>>51676596

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Why do Wuxia heroes actually recognize & pursue women who want them? It's jarring going from shounen where the MC is a dense asexual manchild or a faggot beta terrified of girls. It's like "hey I like you too, you're my woman now". And she's always like "I n-never thought a guy like you would like little ol' me".

>>51684065

because the chinese have an appreciation for badass women that the japanese have lost.

>>51684065
Wuxia ( or at least the xianxia webnovel schlock that I've read ) easily swings too far in the other direction

>Literal rapist protagonists ( luckily I've only come across this once, but that fucker raped THREE girls so far )
>Harem of girls who quickly become irrelevant due to escalating powerlevels
>Autistic MC who has two girls devoted to him but only returns the feelings of one even though there is nothing stopping him from being with both but he still pretends he cares about the one he ignores

>>51683756
>Chinese people didn't hate society in general. It wasn't a "HURR HURR FUGG GUNVYOOSHIS" attitude. It was "Hey, this society sucks for the following reasons. And Confucius said that leaders should be righteous to ensure a healthy society.
This is very important: reformers, like the water margin heroes, are represented by the masters of society as bandits, outcasts, criminals - ANTI-social murderous bastards. When, in fact, they were very PRO-society, PRO-people; they were just ANTI-corruption/shitty leadership/stupid bureaucracy.
The water margin heroes, to overthrow the corruption, are a force of nature, a force of the gods.

>>51684065

In the Shaw Brother's version of Sword Stained with Royal Blood the Golden Snake Bandit threatened to rape the Wen familie's women as part of his revenge against them but wound up falling in love with one of them and returned her unharm (carrying his baby of course)

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>>51684065
I've always been fond of the trope where the girl asks the hero to train her and he tells her to fuck off so she fights him anyway and he's impressed so he takes her as his pupil and before you know it they get frisky while grappling one night.

>>51684132
>>51684171
Valid point

Part of me thinks the edgy rapist MCs are targeted at teenage girls to schlick to anyway, and the demographic of guys who want to self insert as a primal alpha

>>51665897
You say "recent" but the phrase is older then your parents are, unless you're in your 50's I suppose.

>>51684132
>but that fucker raped THREE girls so far
Chu Feng or Zhou Weiqing?

>>51684295
Oh fuck thanks for reminding me
Two rapist protagonists.

>>51684305
But which one were you thinking of at first?

>>51684281

I don't think I ever heard "wuxia" used prior to the mid 90s.

Gotta love wuxia.
Well, you don't GOTTA but what kinda tasteless philistine doesn't?

>>51684321
It's a foreign genre, but there's plenty of really old Wuxia.
Xiuzhen, (>>51676754) for instance, is fairly new.

>>51669013
A number of reasons, but mostly it's because Jin Young did it first; he liked his life interested to be rebellious and even mildly antagonist at times as well as decently capable of taking care of themselves, which at the time was a fairly revolutionary idea in China.

>>51684318
Chu Feng
Have no idea why I even read it for so long. Might pick it back up if only because it updates so quickly.

>>51684345
Doesn't seem too unusual

A good Confucian woman should be skilled in combat, expert with domestic duties, studious, and willing to protect her family honor if need be.

Of course I suppose the cultural revolution fucked everything.

Is it acceptable to ask LOTW specific questions here?

I'm mostly wondering what to do for the various major factions of the Wulin that don't have linked internals; how do you explain Xia in those factions having more than just formless techniques if they don't have internals that they know and train their members in? What if a PC wants more than one technique of a level? I fear it'd be imbalanced to allow them to have that, since surely the game is balanced around only having easy access to your faction's internal, and definitely only having *broad* access to that one internal?

>>51684321
It was commonly used in China to describe the genre since before the 1950's. Chinese culture kinda didn't get exported much after the Kung-fu craze of the 70's and then after Communism got to be a more low-key problem for us in the US rather then the end-all be-all of threats.
It's like claiming Polynesian people don't exist because you've never seen one.

>>51684434

I'm in a lot of games using custom settings, and we waive the 'one technique per level' rule pretty much universally. It doesn't make things more balanced or fun, it's just a kind of pointless restriction that forces you to spend lots of destiny on buying into new Internals rather than spending it on the interesting things, the techniques.

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>>51681118
>Xia vs. samurais would be interesting

I've been reading some karate history recently, and you could totally use historical Ryu-Kyu as the hub of a setting to do this. You'd have karatekas in addition to Xia (lots of Fujian styles) and also room for ninjas.

Thinking about it, 17th century Okinawa makes a very cosy setting for Far Eastern stuff.

>>51681429
>All animalistic forms are a Shaoling thing desu.

Yo, what about the 5 Animal Styles / Ancestor Style that have very Southern footwork?

>>51684340
>>51684449

Oh I know the term goes back like a century in China, (and the genre it describes is even older) I'm just saying the term wasn't commonly used in the US before the 90s. At least not among cinema nerds and kung fu fans, of which I was both

>>51681225
Something something Blood&Steel?

>>51684551
That's true at least.

>>51684565
Exactly

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Well shit. Alrighty then...

A new challenge approaches! A powerful alliance of five foreign Xia with attitude!

The leader is a brooding, straw-hatted samurai. He knows twenty weapons, but needs only the katana. His ki/qi manifests as violent killing intent– a single stare from him can cow savage beasts and silence an angry mob. The scars that cross his body are proof of an almost superhuman tenacity and defiance of death.

Number two is an aristocratic Spanish gentleman. His advanced education has allowed him to extrapolate the most mathematically efficient use of the rapier and parrying dagger. Furthermore, extensive knowledge of the classics has given him a penchant for the ancient Greek systems of wrestling and pugilism.

Eldest among the fighters is a white-bearded sage from the north of India. He has a whole lot of spiritual attainment under his belt, to the point where he may or may not be able to levitate (no two people have seen him do it at the same time). In battle, he wields exotic blades such as the flexible urumi and the circular chakram combined with flexibility from a life-time of yoga practice.

The muscle of the group is provided by a massive Mongolian tribesman. His specialty is traditional wrestling, though his skill in horsemanship is great as well. Many who have made their names by kicking and striking have seen their skills confounded in the lock of his arms. Despite all this, the man seems to have a very mild and jovial personality.

Finally, the least remarkable of the five. He is a scruffy Englishman, a soldier of fortune hoping to make some money in China. When he isn’t shooting from his powerful bow, he sports an old hooked blade mounted upon a pole. Most people thought he was just a servant or a guard until he defeated a respected spear fighter in three moves.

How did these barbarians end up together? I don’t fucking know; but they’re here now, and you’ve gotta deal with them!

>>51684622

Not gunna lie my dick is kinda hard right now. This sounds like it would be a kick as fighting game.

>>51682016
>The hero is often a "Kung Fu genius"
That's a translation thing.
By 'genius' they mean 'talented person.'

Incidentally; luck and wealth are considered inborn talents.

>>51684463
Ah? I'm surprised, I would think that sort of restriction was done for a specific balance reason.

>>51684705

LotW is a system described as scattershot at best. I love it, it has a lot of great ideas, but dear god does it fuck up the execution a lot of the time. It needed a lot more development time and editing before release. As is, it's a flawed masterpiece.

>>51684751
Ah? Can you give me a little advice on what to do to make it smoother, then? I was going to run it flat as-is for my group, since that's how we always generally start, but if houserules will improve the experience that much...

>>51684622
What, no guy from Imperial Mali?

>>51683409
>What are those stories trying to tell us?
Those who gave up when it got tough were destined to fail from the beginning.

>>51684686
>Incidentally; luck and wealth are considered inborn talents
That's just a ruse used by the lucky and the wealthy to keep us from taking their shit.....

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Why does Vietnam never get love in East Asia threads? They wrote the book on insurgency. And the Trung Sisters were badass.

>>51684780
Oh god, you haven't read it yet, have you? Oh god......

>>51684855
Mao pls

>>51684808
I can replace one of them, but I'm thinking of using a country somewhat closer to China.

>>51684887
>>51684887
Maybe a Uyghur? Or a Tibetan?

>>51684935
Or a Viet.

>>51684887
Why replace one? Is there some symbology to 5 that I'm missing?

>I'm thinking of using a country somewhat closer to China.
One of the *stans? Kazakhstan & China share a border. Might be too similar to Mongolia, though. Indonesia, maybe?

>>51684872
>>51684780
Here's some really good advice: Go though the book and re-write the rules into another document as clear text (as opposed to the mess that the real book is). Give your players that clear-text document.

>>51684824
That's a good and true point, but it misses my question. I'm talking about the mindless emotional protag who just powers his way through all obstacles because he's super awesome. Not a thinker, not skilled - just pure raw power. It seems like nothing these protagonists face is a real threat to them - they just power through to the next challenge.
Are these just power fantasies of the writers? Or is there something more to them?

>>51684884
Enjoy servitude, peasant; and fetch me my slippers.

>>51684780

There's a couple of simple things you can fix-

RAW, Block and Footwork, the two defensive stats, are completely uneven. Both do well as defences, but Footwork also governs mobility. The easy fix is letting Block be used for movement too, representing powering through obstacles while Footwork is going over or around them.

Armour also sucks RAW. It has huge amounts of penalties and a somewhat trivial benefit given how easy armour is to ignore. Remove all the penalties save for mobility and it works fine.

Look up the Half-Burnt Manual on the Wulin Legends wiki. It has a lot of excellent advice and errata for some of the more broken homebrew styles.

And then there's Elemental Chi, which is a fucker because there's no consensus on a fix for it. The short of it is that elemental chi cultivation is a flat advantage over normal chi cultivation, meaning those who choose normal styles get fucked in terms of chi efficiency and regeneration. You can tweak elemental chi, remove it entirely, buff neutral chi, etc etc. But nobody really seems to have found the one best way to fix it yet.

>>51684982
>Here's some really good advice: Go though the book and re-write the rules into another document as clear text (as opposed to the mess that the real book is)
>J-just rewrite the book and you'll be fine!
This is why LotW is shit (well, one reason). I only hope Feng Shui is better...

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>>51684988
It's just how Japanese people see the world. It seems incomprehensible to you but it's sensible to them.

Check out "Shakespeare in the Bush". It's the record a British woman had of explaining (well, attempting to explain) the story of Hamlet to a West African tribe. It's very amusing.

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>>51684887
I'm digging your cast, especially the Spaniard and the Yogi.
But where's the Russian mercenary?

>I can replace one of them,
Maybe bump it up to 8?
There's usually 8 Grand Matsers in a Wuxia setting, right?
The campaign could be overcoming them to regain the nation's face.

>>51684935
Native American Two-Spirit, they're a "sea crossing immortal."

>>51684982
I like five. It fits my ideal for a small group of heroes/villains.

The main point would be to see how the Wuxia world would react to these fuckers.

>>51685039
>I only hope Feng Shui is better...

It's simple, crazy, and fun.

>>51685039

LotW as a product is shit, I'll agree. Once you get it running it's fucking phenomenal, but getting to that point is way, way harder than it has any right to be.

>>51685039
Speaking of FS, what are the pros and cons of it as compared to Hong Kong Action Theatre (other than still being in support)?

>>51685041
Is that really true, though? Do real people in japan honestly believe that if they get emotional enough they can overcome any obstacle? If they smash it enough times that they will win?
Or is it just a conceit of the genre and the writers? Because, in real life, that shit don't work, generally. It sounds like a recipe for a lot of impotent teenaged rage and angst.

>>51684622
I can see a single hero working his way through all five of these guys, or a group of five native Xia taking them on individually.

Which do you guys prefer.

>>51685074
SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Awesome review if true, anon!

>>51684988
See that's exactly the kind of shit they're talking. There wasn't anything special about that obstacle to begin with, you just didn't try hard enough.

>>51685084
You are the first to say that honest assessment on this here chan, anon - thank you! Most lotw'ers just go on about how great it is without telling the very significant flaws. Thanks again for your honesty!

One thing I really like about wuxia is that if someone insults or threatens the main character he will fucking kill the shit out of them for it.

That's refreshing compared to all the "Oh no but if I kill him I will be just like him! in western media"

>>51685090
Don't know, sorry - always wanted to try hkat, but my buddy who owns it ain't up for it.

>>51685133
A group of 4-5 picking them off in 3v1s.

>>51685157

I always try to list the weaknesses of systems, especially ones I really enjoy. If I want people to be able to enjoy it as much as I do, they should be fully equipped to deal with any problems it might have.

I adore LotW. It's my favourite roleplaying system by far, and it does a lot of different things that no other systems even try. But the price of innovation is missteps and faults, and this is only made worse by the shoddy state of the release.

>>51685143
So, it's just some next level lies and bullshit - you can do it if you really really really try hard and mean it. Pff! Keep pushin' that rock, Sisyphus, you poor dumb bastard...

>>51685133
5 v 5 grand melee.

>>51685041
Now of course you seem fixated on the "raw power" concept. It's not that the hero is intended to be this unstoppable juggernaut from start to finish. It's about pushing past the imaginary limits we set for ourselves through believing and striving to be better. The most common shounen story is about becoming a master. That's quintessentially Japanese. A bit of this seeped into Zen Buddhism with it's emphasis on finding enlightenment through a flash of insight from effort.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=r5F51z7FYMk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=BwrHGO7ljR0
https://youtube.com/watch?v=f-3YsWp12EA
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MIMMDk2x-wU
https://youtube.com/watch?v=siiFUti2oQo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=8TFAGAyLzcg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cVkbGq-AyEQ

Such stories are important. They illustrate not only how a culture thinks but what it wishes to teach.

>>51685185
>>51685231

Please continue.

>>51685127
It's not about raw emotion per se. It's about the virtue of instinct over intellect. It's about the pride one should take in doing their best and fulfilling their potential. Being all that you can be. Of course limits exist, but you will never know your limits until you test them.

>>51685035
>RAW, Block and Footwork, the two defensive stats, are completely uneven. Both do well as defences, but Footwork also governs mobility. The easy fix is letting Block be used for movement too, representing powering through obstacles while Footwork is going over or around them.
That's not quite true; Footwork is impeded by armor while Block is not. It doesn't come up terribly often because usually the characters just wear light armor, but still. It could come up when going against heavily armored characters.

>>51684859
That's like asking why Croatia don't get any love in European threads nor fantasy ever.

>>51685305

A fair point. Still, in my experience Footwork was always dominant until we implemented the houserule, alongside the Armour fix to make it actually worthwhile.

>>51685447
Hey, at least with Vietnam we don't all wonder "man, what did they ever do, are they even a place?"

>>51684622
So are they villains or...

>>51685447
But Vietnam isn't completely irrelevant

>>51685287
>It's about the virtue of instinct over intellect
Ok. You'll hafta splain to me the wuxia virtue of 'instinct' so I know exactly what we're discussing, if you please. I suspect 'instinct' must encompass some notions of 'intellect'....because all that I get out of the juxtaposition of intellect and instinct is: smart man leading donkey with carrot........and donkey happily and instinctively chugs along after the carrot...............poor donkey...

>>51685525
They are outsiders. Something strange to react to. Whether they are villains or not is variable.

>>51685640
This thread is about central country, but that tangential discussion is about sunrise country.
Wuxia is not a Nip thing.

>>51685640
Are you slow? You asked about Japan. Not China.

Fuck off.

>>51685640
>I suspect 'instinct' must encompass some notions of 'intellect'
Ideally, the line between the two should be blurry. With enough practice, an act that would take the average person some thought can take you no thought at all.

Like, shit, let me tell about this night in a bar the other day. So I end up sitting next to a 'nam veteran, right? And he's talking about one of his friends who ended up in court. See, the friend got into a barfight that put him on the ground getting kicked by another guy, so he takes a flip-knife and stabs him. He ends up in court on an attempted murder charge, and what does he offer as a defense? He shows to the jury that he can pull out that flip knife in one swift action without even thinking about it, so it can't be murder, it was just him instinctively defending himself.

>>51685647
Well then they should be bad guys, or at least seen as such. That way, people will fight them.

>>51685133
5 sets of 1v1, with each pair of opponents being uniquely suited to each other both in combat style and in philosophy.

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>>51683842
Not Wuxia in the slightest, but I'm reminded of Alcantara from Aqua Knight.

>>51685822
Maybe.

>>51685831
Could you give some examples?

>>51685868
>zyinches

>>51685707
>>51685764
Ahem, boiz: you need to reed tha whole thread before postan.
>>51685764
Fuck off.
>>51685817
Thanks! So, the 'instinctive' types in this genre are actually progressing from thoughtful to instinctive action. I get that. But the impression this post gives>>51684132
is that some protagonists can be fairly stupidly (?) driven by 'instinct'. I'm just trying to connect all the dots.

>>51685907
Well, I didn't have anything in mind. The two ideas floating in my head would be that you either fought like with like or fought with extreme opposites. Like in the latter case, you'd have the Mongolian wrestler fought by a horseback archer....who perhaps ironically would also be Mongolian.

>>51685942
There's probably some misinterpretation in play in Japan. Like, someone saw someone who had managed to convert thoughtful action to instinctual action and, not appreciating the training it took to turn thoughtful action into instinctual action, went and thought "gee, I guess it's just better to be instinctual!"

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>>51685920
Cut his foreign units of measure some slack, he arrived from another world.

>>51685942
>But the impression this post gives >>51684132 is that some protagonists can be fairly stupidly (?) driven by 'instinct'.
Those are XiuZhen protagonists (read: pulp self-insertion wish fulfillment), not WuXia protagonists.

And WuXia isn't about 'intelligent' heroes, it's about talented ones, c >>51684686

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>>51684065
>It's like "hey I like you too, you're my woman now". And she's always like "I n-never thought a guy like you would like little ol' me".
>>51684177
>I've always been fond of the trope where the girl asks the hero to train her and he tells her to fuck off so she fights him anyway and he's impressed so he takes her as his pupil and before you know it they get frisky while grappling one night.

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>>51665650
These may be of interest:

>The ghost-faced warrior monks of the Shaolin Monastery
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/12/the-ghost-faced-warrior-monks-of.html

>Exotic weapons
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2016/05/exotic-weapons-from-san-cai-tu-hui.html
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/12/shuang-fei-zhua.html

>Ming Dynasty derogatory terms for outlaws, foreigners and barbarians
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/p/ming-dynasty-derogatory.html

>Lost or mention only Ming period martial arts
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/p/lost-or-mention-only.html

>List of surviving Ming period martial arts
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/p/list-of-surviving-ming-period-martial.html

>Only three tenths of the wokou were japanese
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2016/06/enemy-of-ming-wokou-p1.html

>>51677222
You're welcome

>>51678892
Did you? If yes, do tell.

>>51680508
Read the rest to see the differences. It also is still present in contemporary chinese society.

>>51683956
Thanks, saved.

>>51686427
Mind giving a rundown of the "stock" Wuxia factions?

>>51686427
>Did you? If yes, do tell.
We didn't have too many sessions, but I had basically a whole party of barbarians - by imperial standards.

One was a "savage" from some south-western island, had a platonic relationship with the son of the magistrate, who fell in love with her elegant, acrobatic moves of Game of Liberation, but could never marry a "savage." He would then support her dream to become a proper aristocrat of the colonizing empire by paying her travel to the capital.

Cue hilarious shenanigans when she is supposed to become the perfect Confucian woman, when she has no clue and is still illiterate...

One was the real life equivalent of those martial artist kids you see in shounen manga, one those poor kids that fight in full contact muay thai competitions with all sorts of abuse within and without the ring. His style was the flashy yet brutal Science of the Eight Limbs.

One was the adoptive sister of this guy, who is an good-natured but tomboyish girl with the most severe yin-yang imbalance in history, sometimes the yin take over and she goes Dr. Jekill, shifting from the gentle but practical Path of Least Resistance to a no-holds-barred Thunder Hand.

Those two were searching for a cure for her, the former fought professionally so she wouldn't have to prostitute herself, in hindsight this may have saved the would-be clients.

One was a "barbarian" from the distant land of Daqin, an aristocrat who came all the way through the Great Trade Route, very interested in the local culture. His style was the pragmatic All Power, incorporating techniques from the Western styles called Sweet Science that uses only two knuckles to fight, and Overcoming which never strikes.

He wanted to romance a princess out of orientalism, and she had him touch the tiny shoe, and then unfold the bandages of a lesser ranked aristocrat girl, thus he discovered the practice of foot-binding, and after much crying they all came to re-evaluate his appreciation of the country.

>>51686982
The last guy was the token non-barbarian with a non-barbarian martial art, he was from a family of martial arts teachers forced to train criminals out of debt. Imperial soldiers armed with polearms and armor came in waves to arrest everyone involved with the illegal martial arts school. He is one of the few that didn't die on the spot or was executed, because he was too little of a boy. His style was Excellence Through Hard Work.

Needless to say he doesn't like imperial authorities very much.

All five became part of a youth recruiting program started by the emperor to form a new royal guard, their first teacher was a secular disciple of the Little Forest Temple, who somehow knew all 72 styles taught there.

>>51684859
Vietnam had so many (attempted) invasions throughout its history... but Vietnam as a RPG setting is usually employed where it's the Yankees doing the invadin'.

>>51687073
HEROES
VILLAINS
ROMANCE
SCHEMING
FIGHTING
TRAGEDY

BEHOLD: THE VIETNAM WAR RETOLD AS A ROMANCE OF THE THREE KINGDOMS ANALOGUE

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>>51683956

Wide columns are slower and less comfortable to read, and hinder both comprehension and retention of information.
Here's another cap done in two narrow columns, like one of those old-fashioned newspaper things your dad used to read.

>>51687041
Anyway, when they meet this master, mistress, whatever, the first thing she does is to ask her new pupils to try and fight her.

So our four barbarians try every trick in the book, to no avail, but our illegal kung fu boy doesn't join them, he just watches and walks around the gym. So the master, still under the "attack" of the four, asks for an explanation.

"Your humble servant believes himself unworthy of being in the presence of the Master." She of course doesn't give a damn: "An order from me is an order from the emperor. I order you to fight me."

The little shit be like: "Who said your humble servant wasn't fighting?" Done with the observing, he reaches for the weapon rack and start throwing what's on it into the fray. No weapons hit the master, of course, but now she has to fight five armed opponents, which was his intention all along. "Fight for the emperor!" he shouts.

Half an hour of rolling later, with one critical too many, the master says the fighting is over, and to the barbarians' surprise she suddenly became extremely pissed off and left, barely pretending to listen to the many praises and flattery. Needless to say, they didn't land a single hit.

Our silver-tongued hero showed his companions that a lengthy blue hair strand from the master's head was in his clutches. The barbarians needed a full day to figure that one out.