>>64368872
It's honestly hard to tell, the orthodox jews are as ass backwards as any other fundamentalist religious group, so odds are they would be completely against bionics until a ranking rabbi needs a replacement.

>>64368872
It's kosher as long as the augmentation was supervised and approved by a rabbi.

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>>64368872
The kosher objection is related to the "mixing fibres" thing, where magical even is supposed to result from "unnatural" combinations. Orthodox Jews object to transplants on the basis that it's mixing someone else's flesh with yours.

Bionics are not flesh, and are not part of the natural world, so adding bionics is as kosher as wearing a hat.

That's what I reckon my rabbi would say anyway.

Interesting question. According to this rabbi, prosthetics in general seem fine, but I can't say about when they would deem it appropriate to get prosthetics.

https://ohr.edu/this_week/its_not_quite_that_simple/6093

>>64368872
Israel is pretty much a trading hub for black market organs so they'd probably go for it.

>>64368872
There'd be arguments over it

>>64368872
>>64368930
What if it's bionic implants grown from your own cells?

>>64368930
What about the ban against using tech on sundays?

Further materials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_donation_in_Jewish_law

>>64368872
Put three rabbis in a room to discuss it and you'll end up with four different opinions on it.
That said, we already have this sort of tech irl (for example, pacemakers and hip replacements), so rabbinical thinking on those issues can likely be extrapolated from.

>>64368872
Yes but you have to turn it off on sundays.

>>64369230
Should be the same rules for prosthetics found today.
Same as pacemakers, which exist.

>>64368930
>That's what I reckon my rabbi would say anyway.
But what would another rabbi say?

>>64369329
Nah, my cyberarm has a wireless connection to my house, so technically it's in my house no matter where I go.

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>>64368872
I really love how bizarre mixing sci-fi and religious elements can get, from "would cybernetics be kosher?" to "can aliens be converted to catholicism?". It sounds so ridiculous, but at the same time it's also incredibly plausible.

>>64368930
Being a kikefag (not a black hat religious but tho) myself here’s my best guess:

I imagine that you may receive a transplant if it comes from a Jewish source or if it undergoes proper preparation, you receive blessing from your rabbi, and perhaps there may be ritual bits to it too.

Cybernetics get a little more fucky since they’re not organic, and the argument can go either way. God gave you your body so why place inanimate pieces in it when these things are strictly forbidden since you’d not longer be in the image of god. On the other hand however, if you suffered an accident and lost an arm, gaining said function back via such cybernetic means could also be viewed as a boon. I think it’s more about intent than it is about functioning purpose.

Also, if you have cybernetic bits are you forbidden from using them on Shabbos?

>>64369162
Jews, the original rules lawyers.

>>64369284
But what about enhancing the body?

>>64369458
I really wish I had a better background in religious studies for world building purposes

>>64369498
>On the other hand however, if you suffered an accident and lost an arm
I foreseen loophole.
> "But say I go to a doctor and ask him to check my valid arm just in case, and the doctor make an error, or is dishonest, and he cut my arm. Then am I not in my right to ask him to make amend and give me a replacement?"

>>64368872
I now want to play a street sam jew who's decked out to near zombie levels, and models himself on the golem of prague

>>64369458
In Mass Effect there's mention of making unleavened bread for aliens whose body chemistry don't jive with that of humans.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-cyborg-revolution-is-here-is-it-good-for-the-jews/

It's not like jews don't have a history of cutting off body parts for no reason so doing it for cybernetics is better than that.

>>64368872
Not kosher in most cases. Body mods of any kind, except circumcision, is a sin. If they can't even pierce their ears they definitely can't get robot parts. The only exception would be in medical emergencies

>>64369458
A common thought I've had is, if Islam ever travelled off Earth, what would Muslims pray towards? Like, if there's a colony on Alpha Centauri IV, would the Muslims there have to pray towards Sol? Couldn't that eventually be construed as star-worship, and therefore idolatry?

And if Islam spread across the galaxy, and the human population exploded from colonisation, would all those Muslims travel back to Earth for the Hajj? Mecca gets crowded enough just from terrestrial pilgrims - I can't imagine how it would handle the tens of billions of pilgrims that galactic colonisation would create.

One idea I had was that Islam might undergo a schism, where colonists start building replicas of the Kaaba on other planets, and directing their prayers and pilgrims towards their local instance of said holy site. This would both clear up the issue of where to pray to, and relieve the pressure of pilgrims travelling to Earth.

But of course, the old-school purists would call the Kaaba-builders idolatrists, for worshipping the form of the Kaaba rather than the real thing. And the Kaaba-builders would call the purists idolatrists, for favouring the specific, original Kaaba, over enabling the practise of Hajj and Salah for all Muslims.

Depends on the Rabbi.
Chasidim and other ultra-orthodox would absolutely forbid them outside of medical necessity, and then only to the point of not exceeding the original capabilities, or staying at the minimum for a slightly reduced quality of life.As a medically necessary item, it is an exception to the rule of no electricity (itself an expansion of the rule against lighting a fire), much like a pacemaker or Cpap machine.
Among the regular orthodox, discreet augmentations are allowed for legitimate reasons. Getting an implanted computer to play games is not kosher, getting one for your job is.
With the Reform and Reconstructionist, anything goes with the question being asked being either “is it necessary” or “does it do good”. It’s much like getting a tattoo - preferably discreet, simple, and not offensive.
Conservative Judaism (different from Conservative Jews, who are usually orthodox) follows the old joke of “Orthodox Rabbis with a Reform Congregation” - a bit looser with the rules than the Orthodox, and the congregation pretends to give a shit.

>>64369743
>Jews using loopholes
Gee, who would have thought. I already foresaw that when I posted that. Jews love to banter semantics, hence all the lawyers.

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>>64368872
>can orthodox jew get augmented
yes

>>64371917
What am I looking at? Autoswitch option so Jews don't have to operate it on Sabbath?

>>64369152
Would a Jew that gets a gentile's organ still be one of God's chosen people?

>>64372171
Yes.
What else were you expecting? As long as it's not a prosthetic foreskin, you're fine.

>>64369409
One, that's some classic style jewish rules lawyering - reminds me of an anecdote I heard on here, about some street-covering or something else that the jews of a community used to make the streets of a town or area all one building, technically, so they weren't leaving home to do business on the sabbath.

>>64369458
It's definitely an interesting topic - and a very realistic one. Religion is important to people, and theology even from the earliest times has opened itself to weird questions (see early christian schisms that include grammar and word-definition playing a big role).

>>64369498
As I understand it, the donor should probably be dying - as in imminently?

>>64371468
I'd argue they have aim for earth as well as they can, and in the same way as the islamic traders were pioneers in astronomy and navigation due in part to their need to know exactly which way to pray, islamic astronavigational needs may lead to exceedingly precise orientation abilities should islam take to the stars

>>64371468
An intergalactic hajj would def require earth to play support to Mecca’s tourist hotspot.

Anyway in this situation Muslims of every populated world own the on world relative coordinates of the Kaaba and have a model there and it’s not idolatry because the prayers are for Allah swt

Maybe

I wish I could ask my imam this retarded question

The various "turn it off on the sabbath" law are to do with

>Do not work on the sabbath

Lighting lamps counts as work, doing exercise voluntarily counts as work.

Lighting lamps sorta = "completing a circuit to make a spark" which is why they are not allowed to PUSH A BUTTON.

So on one hand, using a computer is not OK. On the other hand, the regular day to day functions of your body for things like walking, your heart beating, lifting food to your mouth and eating - those are OK.

So if it's a part of your body that is just doing its function without additional effort or awareness than using your body takes, then _operating_ those implants is OK.

But actively using features such as "browsing the web via brain implants" would be conscious extra effort used to do a thing = not OK.

So you don't have to turn off your cyberleg, because it's just your body.

But I Am Not A Rabbi, and I have no idea what current very orthodox prescriptions are. Fuck knows what the chasidim and satmarin would think. They're batshit cultists, just with the protections of being jewish and thus "Not OK" to shun or mock.

(But ask anyone who isn't one of them and lives near 'em - they're just assholes to anyone not of their groups. Not trying to be /pol/ or start race hate, I can go into why they're assholes for various reasons if anyone cares.)

>>64371468
They've done some thought on this - one of the good things about islam is that it comes with self-patch notes so you can find less stupid ways of interpreting centuries old texts for modern problems.

There's been meetings already to determine what astronauts in orbit do.

TL;DR attempt to face earth at the start of your prayers, to the best of your ability, and then don't change direction during your prayers.

If genuinely facing earth is hard due to distance and speed, face a local landmark that you determine that is Not The Sun and not Always Where The Sun Rises in your main location, because part of the reason for facing the Qaaba was to not worship towards the rising sun

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If you're not on Earth, and not on a planet that miraculously has the same length of day and year as Earth, would you have to keep an Earth-to-local conversion calendar handy for observed religious days? i.e., Christmas, Easter, Diwali, Eid, etc.

What about holy days that specifically follow things like phases of the Moon on Earth, or begin/end at sunrise/set? I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question to have computerised tracking of these kinds of things, but I know next to nothing of religious festivals and the specifics involved. I remember a Muslim co-worker of mine couldn't eat during a period of fasting until the sun set, and it was local sunset rather than a specific time. What if you're on a planet that has days that last for weeks, or days that last for only a couple hours?

Space theology is whack and I love it.

>>64368872
Those kikes are wearing glasses, aren't they? What's the difference really.
The Jew 'belief' system is mostly about finding ways around the commandments of their 'God'. They can find a way to justify anything. We'd have cyborg yids everywhere.

>>64372171
Yes (with possible exception of Kohenim receiving organs from the dead - though technically they aren't Jews anyway). Why wouldn't they be? The bigger issue is how the organ was obtained.

>>64372286
>, about some street-covering or something else that the jews of a community used to make the streets of a town or area all one building, technically, so they weren't leaving home to do business on the sabbath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
it's a whole fucking new level of trying to outjew g-d

>>64372412
I'd love you to go into the reasons. It's a fascinating topic.

>>64372495
Meaning you gotta slaughter the donor the kosher way?

>>64371468

There's a Muslim character in Battletech that just looks up. Makes about as much sense as anything since the motivating premise is also fairly ridiculous.

>>64372488
>>64372500
If the legal code is perfect, wouldn't it logically follow that any loopholes that exist were put there intentionally? Or at least that's the logic behind it (one explanation for why they were put there is that they serve as rewards for sufficiently studying the law). In the case of the Eruv though, I vaguely remember reading that its not a loophole in any divinely originating laws but in a rabbinic ordinance that was designed to prevent any possibility of breaking the former.

>>64372590
Meaning there's a debate on whether it counts as desecration of the dead or causing injury to the donor.

First links I found (too lazy to read)
https://jewishaction.com/health/halachah-say-organ-donation/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3678940/

>>64372566
For starters, there are an awful lot of kohenic and religoius laws that bind them. Things like "Do not touch a woman you're not related or married to.", which mean they've got to just do an awful lot of stuff that's seemingly rude or outlandish.

They're visibly recognisible and cannot hide from view - they're religiously mandated to always, always wear specific garments. Being constantly visible as an outsider and an "Other" is gonna make you standoffish and used to conflict.

Add that visibility to the fairly constant low-grade persecution of even friendly jews in a lot of areas and they're pretty much primed for being assholes in advance because they're just gonna get flak anyway.

But that's nothing compared to the other big reasons.They're very, very insular. They keep to themselves. Most of what they need, they provide to one another. They've got a very strong mentality that "We don't need anything from you, so why should we give anything to you either?"

They're also convinced that they're vitally important to the continued existence and spiritual health of the world. As long as SOME people are perfectly and properly keeping ALL the really convoluted laws, g-d is happy. There's also the Tzaddikim, or Righteous Ones, who are 36 people used as a spiritual barometer. As soon as one dies, g-d chooses another recently born Good Jew to watch. The groups like Satmar always assume that all 36 of these will always be of their groups. So they're actually VERY IMPORTANT and the rest of the world should be THANKFUL for what they do, they make sacrifices because they were born into this special way of life and you weren't.

On top of this, they're all hella good at rules lawyering because basically all of orthodox judaism is working out how to interpret the various laws you have to follow in the least difficult or annoying ways possible. So they tend to know laws very well and be assholes about how and when they follow them.

>>64372412
>chasidic assholes
Oh yeah, they’re assholes. And definitely Jewish cultists.
Hell, the Orthodox get assholish over weird things, like girls being friends with boys (growing up among them, one of my older female friends/neighbors had to move from New Jersey to Texas because the local community ostracized the entire family because their daughter was no longer a good marriage prospect by being friends with the son of the handyman. Hell, I got banned from taking the school bus because I made friends with a girl my age on it and her dad was a lawyer and my dad was the handyman).
But when it comes to being dicks, the only group that outdicks the ultra-orthodox are the Messianics (who are not Jews), and only the fucking Protestants count them as Jews. Those Christian fuckbuckets.

>>64372141
It’s more complex than that
https://youtu.be/NdbkvJznmwU

>>64373000
Combine rules lawyers with the us-vs-them mentality and you get things like how the Satmar will enter neighbourhoods and then take over local councils via weight of numbers and the fact that while the average person doesn't give a fuck about voting for small local elections, they all do. They'll get all the positions on local boards filled with their own, then vote to defund schools in the area. Why? Lowers their own taxes massively and they send their own kids to private schools so they don't benefit from paying tax on public schools.

>>64373023
Well, their entire morality is based on legalism and "fuck the outsider."
In the Talmud, there's a story where they out argue God.

>>64373023
Protestants are the worst type of christians unless you count mormons, who are not christians

>>64373113
Mormons, JWs, Seventh Day Adventists, and basically all the other groups that use full on cult mentality are all fucking awful.

jewbots

>>64373100
thats hilarious

>>64373100
>>64373360
It’s true though.
It goes beyond outvoting god though - they outvote him three times before his voice comes down and says “this guy is right, this is how I intended this rule to interpreted in this type of situation” and then they still veto gods decision.
And he respected that.
In the Christian version they would’ve all died horribly, but just about every Christian story of someone not deepthroating their gods ego ends like that.

>>64373491
based

>>64373491
>but just about every Christian story of someone not deepthroating their gods ego ends like that.
That's why you spell it with a capital G.

>>64368872
They’d have some talmudic reasoning as to why it’s actually ok.

>>64373491
>just about every Christian story of someone not deepthroating their gods ego ends like that.
There's exceptions though, you can imagine whom Lot's daughters were deepthroating and they got away with that just fine.

>>64373525
Yeah, if I remember correctly the decision of the Sanhedrin was that since there was no Temple and therefore no place for the priests to do their job and talk to god, not even god could set down an authoritative interpretation of the Halacha because that might be a wayward spirit instead.

Also, no Jew actually wants the Temple rebuilt. Why? Because refusing to rebuild it pisses off the ultra-hard-right-wing Christians who want their version of the end times triggered.
And it really only gets rebuilt after the actual messiah comes around, by which point the crazy Christians are a moot point.
Those idolatrous bastards.
(Says the ex-Jew who turned to Shinto and generic paganism. How hypocritical).

>>64373644
There's also the fact that they believe that their true messiah will be the person who kills all of the Amalakites.
And they think Europeans are the descendants of the Amalakites.

>>64373585
That’s because Lot and his daughters is Old Testament, making it a Jewish story. Not even the Protestants can get away with making their translations differ that much from the source material.
Besides, Lots deal with god (it’s been over a decade, okay?) was also done as their proxy, but deciding to continue with it was their decision.
Basically Lot asked “but what about my family?” And god went “yeah sure, same terms and conditions apply.”

>>64373491
it wasn't so much vetoing as the rabbi's telling the one guy invoking miracles 'no: that's not a legal argument' - and then when he invokes God, the others pointing out (to God) that God had already proclaimed that calling on him for an argument from authority isn't a valid alternative to proper jurisprudence.

>>64373644
Honestly in awe of such incredibly petty rules lawyering, truely they are /tg/ precursors

>>64373780
Look out for our ghetto halachic rap album, Neckbeards 'n' Peyots.

>>64373780
Puts into light how they could have been thrown out of several hundred countries, even before we get into topics of a more controversial nature.

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>>64372456
If they were on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Sun, would looking 'up' (where 'up' is defined in relation to the galactic plane) be a valid direction? I'm curious how it would be handled at scales where even Not The Sun is hard to determine. Or does the Sun refer to the local star, rather than Sol?
>>64373780
pic name related.

>>64373939
I honestly do not know.

>>64373780
You know what’s real petty? Proving a common interpretation of kashrut wrong.
You can eat meat and dairy together, as long as they are both cold and were not cooked together or heated up together (example: a sandwich. As long as the cheese does not melt, and all the ingredients are kosher, it’s kosher).
Also, poultry is parve (neither meat nor dairy), meaning you can have fried chicken with your Mac and cheese (unless you rule that poultry and eggs must follow the same rules as meat and dairy, in which rotisserie is fine).
The weird dietary extremes (such as no meat within six hours of eating dairy, since for some reason your digestive tract counts a cooking method) are the fault of the Askenazim, who had a habit of turning into a very polite, non lethal, Jewish Inquisition.
Chicken got considered a meat, IIRC, because it’s an animal.

>>64371468
Visiting the kaaba is precisely one of the rules you can ignore if you must. In fact you can ask someome else to go there in your name.

So probably the whole colony would just send one important dude to earth in name of them all, from time to time.

>>64374296
>3019 CE
>Mecca is mostly made up guys on permanent hajj as representatives of their worlds Muslims
>names of the new babies come in via interstellar mail
>their Hajj is walking to the spaceport, picking up the mail, then walking to the Kaaba to pray on behalf of the newborns
>probably works pretty well

>>64373113
Mormons are also protestants, even if the lutherans, anglicans, etc. don't like it.

>>64374464
And the group that hates everybody is the evangelical southern baptists, but in my experience they think everybody with a shred of basic human decency is an agent of Satan.

>>64374076
Is it true that kosher (and other ancient dietary restrictions) are basically just traditional ways to avoid getting sick before we discovered germ theory?

>>64375645
That is the common theory, as there's no better way to get people to listen to your rules than by having God tell them what to do

>>64375645
Basically. Fish seems weird in that context, but at the seaside it's really easy to pack them in salt. Pork has shit-tons of parasites and spoils really quickly unless you salt it (which requires a lot of processing) or smoke it (which requires a lot of hard woods). Ruminants like goats, cows and deer are a lot safer in terms of parasites.
On an odd note, an allergy to pork can turn into your immune system literally trying to kill you because of the similar protein structures. A few cases of families suddenly dying from eating pork would be enough to scare any population off of them.
Dairy products can spoil pretty fast as well, although cheese is the best way to preserve them. In the case of not mixing dairy and meat (specifically the phrasing "do not cook a calf in its mothers milk") actually has an ethical/spiritual origin - basically cooking the animal in what would've sustained it is seen as a mockery of the natural process.
Chicken was originally lumped in with fish - neither meat nor dairy and therefore safe to eat with both, since they're not live-bearing mammals and are a relatively cheap protein.

>>64373491
>>64373525
>>64373644
>>64373780
It should be pointed out that God not only respected the Rabbi's ruling, but when the angel who delivered his message returned to heaven he found God on his throne laughing his ass off, saying "My children have defeated me".

The point of the story is that it is man's job, not God's, to interpret God's law. God gave man the Torah, but it is ultimately up to men to develop it and determine how its rules work and what does and does not break them. That's why orthodox Jews are such huge sticklers for following their religious laws while simultaneously having no problems with constantly and blatantly exploiting loopholes in those very same laws. They don't think of it as disobeying God anymore than we consider technology cheating physics, it's just using unusual or uncommon aspects of natural laws to make our lives easier.

Basically if God is the legislature that passed the laws, Man is the judge in the courtroom deciding how to interpret and apply those laws to specific circumstances, and it's Man's rulings that really determine how the laws are defined and enforced. The Law is not decided in heaven, it is decided by men. That perspective is one of the things I respect the most about Judaism actually.

It's honestly my favorite Talmudic story. If I had to pick one thing to exemplify what Judaism is about, I'd pick that story.

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>>64368872
As long as you don't put cheese on it, I think it's fine.

>>64377185
That attitude leads to some interesting debates.
For example, dolphins have foreskins. Therefore, a dolphin could be converted to Judaism.

>>64377330
>>64368872
>>64369498
>TFW /pol/ is all Jews LARPing as NAZI's

>>64369230
I imagine it would fall under the 'life saving' category, the same way you can drive to the ER on Sunday

>>64377883
Do Christians forbid driving on Sundays?

>>64368930

I asked a chasidic rabbi about fiber mixing, and he said that the mixed fibers only applies to wool and linen, not other fabric blends.

I didn't ask him anything else, but clearly the ban on tattoos would apply to certain implants.

Go to chabad.org and the chasidic have a long list of posts regarding various transhumanist ideas. Obviously there's disagreement, but I saw one talk at Oxford where an orthodox Rabbi argued that genetic engineering of a parahuman or other new species is a violation of religious law. That leaves open the door for genetic engineering anything short of a new species. He cited a talmud ruling from well over a millennia ago that ruled that an AI does have a soul and so must be treated as a human.

Cybernetics seems ok from multiple sources. Here's a link: www.chabad.org/865120

These are chasidic sources. You can be orthodox without being chasidic (or even "modern orthodox" like Ivanka Trump). So those rabbis might have different rulings. You'd be stunned how many rabbis going back centuries have already thought these things through.

If you engineer a tree that grows hams would they be kosher because the tree doesn't have feet?

>>64369152
its funny cause its true

>>64373100
>>64373491
>>64373644
The ruling was that when God gave the Jews the Torah he declared that judgments in legal (read: religious law) matters should be decided by a majority of learned justices/scholars. Since the majority of Rabbis voted for the other position then that was now the proper interpretation, regardless of what God said or originally intended, because God is not the one that determines legal precedent. Basically by God's own rules, God does not have any say in the interpretation or application of his laws.

It should be pointed out that Jew's believe this is deliberate, since God is omniscient and thus would never accidentally include such an oversight. Therefor God wants man to be independent of him, and decide for themselves how to use his laws. And much like any good parent, God is proud of his children when they are able make their own choices, even if those choices are different from what he had in mind.

>>64368872
Activating an Augment on Shabbat might not be permissible.

Carrying an augment from one space into another during Shabbat might also not be seen as permissible unless it is within the bounds of an Eruv.

There's the jewish practice of Purim Torah, which involves telling humorous stories and riddles on the holiday of Purim (which is yet another "hurrah we didn't get slaughtered that day" holiday that the jews have so many of). This is done to flex one's knowledge on Talmudic law. While these started as such stories, in more recent times they started include more fantastical elements, like "Can a dragon who lives off of gemstones eat kosher?" or "Can a werewolf celebrate pesach?" It's pretty much the Talmudic equivalent of "How fast can a Space Marine run?" or "What's the DC for crawling up your own asshole?"

>>64371468
>A common thought I've had is, if Islam ever travelled off Earth, what would Muslims pray towards?
As close to the direction that tha Ka'aba is in. Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, Malaysia's first astronaut, ran into this issue when he went to the ISS. Another issue he ran into is that time is arbitrary in space, so he timed his prayers with when they were held in Mecca. A third issue is that you can't exactly bow down in space, but that one was easily fixed by strapping his feet down.

>>64378339
Actually you know what I'm gonna post the full text for the story, because it's definitely one of my favorites. For some reason most version of the Talmud like to leave some words untranslated so for reference the word Halakha means law and Halakhic means lawful/legal.

The Sages taught: On that day, when they discussed this matter, Rabbi Eliezer answered all possible answers in the world to support his opinion, but the Rabbis did not accept his explanations from him.

After failing to convince the Rabbis logically, Rabbi Eliezer said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, this carob tree will prove it. The carob tree was uprooted from its place one hundred cubits, and some say four hundred cubits. The Rabbis said to him: One does not cite halakhic proof from the carob tree. Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the stream will prove it. The water in the stream turned backward and began flowing in the opposite direction. They said to him: One does not cite halakhic proof from a stream.

Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the walls of the study hall will prove it. The walls of the study hall leaned inward and began to fall. Rabbi Yehoshua scolded the walls and said to them: If Torah scholars are contending with each other in matters of halakha, what is the nature of your involvement in this dispute? The Gemara relates: The walls did not fall because of the deference due Rabbi Yehoshua, but they did not straighten because of the deference due Rabbi Eliezer, and they still remain leaning.

>>64378399
Rabbi Eliezer then said to them: If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it. A Divine Voice emerged from Heaven and said: Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?

Rabbi Yehoshua stood on his feet and said: It is written: “[the Torah] is not in heaven” (Deuteronomy 30:12). The Gemara asks: What is the relevance of the phrase “It is not in heaven” in this context? Rabbi Yirmeya says: Since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a Divine Voice, as You already wrote at Mount Sinai, in the Torah: “After a majority to incline” (Exodus 23:2). Since the majority of Rabbis disagreed with Rabbi Eliezer’s opinion, the halakha is not ruled in accordance with his opinion. The Gemara relates: Years after, Rabbi Natan encountered Elijah the prophet and said to him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do at that time, when Rabbi Yehoshua issued his declaration? Elijah said to him: The Holy One, Blessed be He, smiled and said: My children have defeated Me; My children have defeated Me.

monotheism isn't really all that creative, its the crazy loopholes they have to go through to justify their beliefs that are crazy.

i honestly don't know how monotheism defeated polytheistic and animist religions, it seems like the latter are infinitely more adaptable.

>>64378485
I think people just went with whoever was winning, because if they were on top that meant their gods were more powerful.

>>64378534
i think the jews won because they knew religion was really a crock of shit and just went about finding the most effective way to take advantage of peoples fears and beliefs.

>>64378587
I think there is something out there, but it is not kind.

>>64378618
I mean, think about it.
What if god were evil?

It would make perfect sense. It would answer all your questions.

>>64378665
I think a better question that the answer why evil exists, which is fairly obvious, is why does good exist? Does good exist?

>>64378679
The reason why evil exist is that there literally is no reason, it simply exists for its own sake, to perpetuate itself and cause misery and suffering.

But why does good exist? Why does pleasure exist? Why does happiness exist?

Is there a purpose to it?

>>64378721
What I understand about happiness is that its rare, its fleeting, and the longer you've been alive the less of it you feel.

>>64377773
Dolphins can't offer consent, which is also a requirement for conversion. Also animals in general are unable to understand the implications of conversion and the responsibilities they would have as Jews, much less be capable of actually carrying all of those duties out. So even if it is possible it would be grossly irresponsible to convert a dolphin, as you would be binding it to whole host of laws and duties that it would have no chance of living up to. Whereas if it remains a goyim it does not have to abide by all those additional laws and thus saves itself the sin of inevitably breaking them.

>>64378784
I figure it was created as something to contrast the pain of existence, so that it would remain sharp and biting, but it sort of backfired.

>>64378809
>the responsibilities they would have as Jews
how hard can it be to sit on your ass and collect rent?

>>64378829
Well dolphins don't have asses to sit on so, very.

>>64375922
>Dairy products can spoil pretty fast as well, although cheese is the best way to preserve them. In the case of not mixing dairy and meat (specifically the phrasing "do not cook a calf in its mothers milk") actually has an ethical/spiritual origin - basically cooking the animal in what would've sustained it is seen as a mockery of the natural process.
Half-right: more accurately, it was because the surrounding tribes performed sacrifices to their pagan gods that involved sacrificing animals that way, and God wanted to distinguish them from said pagans.

>>64369230
I believe the issue is over 'work' or 'creating and destroying'. As long as you don't need to turn off your implant, it should be fine.
>t. goyim that's lived with a jewish family

>>64378810
I mean, lets be honest, given what you know about existence, can you honestly say that if there were a creator god that it would be good, kind, and loving?

I think observation, if it led you to believe anything at all, would seem to indicate that if god does exist, he exists to perpetuate pain and suffering.

>>64378875
Where's my fish, goyim?

>>64378809
Ah, but if we could communicate effectively with the dolphin and it was able to give consent, what halakah would it have to disregard for its own health? What halakah would be changed to carry their intent across the differences between our species and the environments we live in?
For example, the dolphin in the ocean cannot prepare and store food for the shabbos, so it must perform one of the following actions:!restrict its range to a place with defensible storage sites, optainnfood for the shabbos from others, or it must hunt on the shabbos. Since the first is a burden on its ability to provide for itself and its pod, and we cannot force its ability perform the mitzvot of shabbos to rely on the kindness of strangers, it is obvious that the Jewish Dolphin is allowed the ability to perform the work of the hunt during shabbos.

>>64378926
How can you accept responsibility for an inherent flaw as though you were responsible for it? If I'm evil, its because god CHOSE for me to be evil. He gave me the inclination to commit evil, he gave me the opportunity and provided the circumstance which drove me to do so. He chose my desires and ordained that i would do so, it was written in the fates, and literally nothing I could have done would have stopped it from occurring. Everything in this world is as god wills it to be.

>>64379020
So why then, does good exist?
Is it a mistake?
An accident of nature?
Was it deliberate motivation on the part of some divine being who exists in opposition to god?
Was it gods shadow, the looming of a burgeoning conscious or growing sense of morality on an either unconscious or apathetic creator being?
Did he have a change of heart? Did he feel sorry for us?
Is his power weakening? Is there more to life than gods artifice?

>>64378926
>I mean, lets be honest, given what you know about existence, can you honestly say that if there were a creator god that it would be good, kind, and loving?

Actually. yeah I can. The world can suck and people can suck harder but on the whole I think I rather enjoy existing and I think that the good outweighs the bad. If something out there is responsible for giving me the opportunity to exist I'm thankful for it doing so.

>>64379082
The only thing we know for certain is this: god is not perfect. He is neither omniscient or omnipotent. There are places he can not go and people he can not touch.

And, honestly, seeing as how god corrupts everything he touches, this is probably a good thing.

>>64378998
Of course, another issue is that one dolphin cannot safely circumcise another dolphin. Since requiring the mitzvot of circumcision would therefor place an undue burden on the Jewish Dolphin, as it must then rely upon Jews who do not live in the water, it then follows that the Jewish Dolphin must place a sign of the covenant upon itself that does not impede its ability provide for itself or its fellows.

(And BTW, this line of reasoning can be extended to aliens, Incase you ever wanted to consider making your space Jews include a literal separate race. Basically, what is their equivalent of the foreskin? What can be permanently removed or altered as a sign of the covenant without reducing their ability to provide for themselves or other?)

>>64379091
I think thats just what we tell ourselves. We make a habit out of living and ignore all the empty spaces where we are unhappy because we don't think we have any choice but to continue living.

If you really sat down and thought about it, i think most people are unhappy far more often than they are happy, and with greater intensity.

>>64378998
If we were to perhaps provide the converted dolphins with protein-reach seaweed that was GMOed (assuming that's permissible) to be palatable for them and helped them set up plantations within their permanently inhabited sites, would they be allowed to use it for food on Shabbat?


I decided to google myself and the answer seems to be a definitive "no".
>Kotzer involves
>detaching a growing item from its growth source
>even if that growth source is not soil
>and even if the growing item has actually finished growing

>>64379101
The truth is really quite unpleasant. We'd rather tell ourselves we are happy than to acknowledge the fact that we are not.

>>64379162
So, we know this too about happiness: it is not our natural state.

>>64368872
There has been actual discussions about the technological singularity.
https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/juda/Judaism%20and%20the%20Singularity%20Using%20Futurism%20to%20Predict%20Possible%20Trajectories%20of%20Jewish%20Identity%20and%20Community.pdf

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-cyborg-revolution-is-here-is-it-good-for-the-jews/

Basically, it's perfectly fine in terms of not breaking any taboos, but there is a concern that this can lead to an economic divide between the life-extending biological augmentations of the rich vs a false immortality for the poor.

>>64379020
Consider, if you will, God as the admins of EVE Online. There are no rules enforced by god, just suggestions (if they ever bothered) enforced by the player base.
God as the physics engine of an mmorpg.
What is good and evil then? We know the atheist can recognize good and evil without the belief of a god from which all things flow.

>>64377808
Shush!
Don't let the goy know!

>>64378998
Well i suppose if we could communicate and the dolphin was capable of giving consent and fully understanding halakah then there shouldn't be a problem with conversion, but you're right it would lead to a lot of interesting situations where the halakah would have to be changed due to the differences in environment and biology.

Travel and doing business outside the home is also forbidden on shabbat, but dolphins don't have houses. So are they just restricted to a certain area around their usual sleeping grounds? How big is that area? What if they're migratory? Would they even have a home?

>>64379178
I think this all makes life a bit romantic, you know? Always chasing after the dying embers of a fleeting epiphany. Seeking something out even though we know it can't last, relishing in the temporary and passing nature of existence.

Religion is always chasing after permanence. Always investing in tomorrow at today's expense. Hell, the whole idea is basically a gamble, that you will still exist after you die.

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>>64378998
A dolphin has no reason to convert to Judaism, just like the goyim have no reason. We don't forgive sin as easily, nor do we offer rewards of paradise.

Hell, technically we don't even deny the existence of other gods. We hope your gods take care of you, just as we hope we are taken care of (I have my doubts on that one).

>>64379161
In this instance, the GMO seaweed would most likely be permissible as it expands their capacity to provide for themselves and each other.
I mean, of course it’s permissible! You think the orthodox are okay with us converting uplifted dolphins?
Of course, whether or not it is permissible to harvest it on the shabbos depends on their ability to store it. It comes down to eating or not eating, and it has been ruled that it is not a sin to break the halakah in the course of survival. Or at least not as bad as breaking them because they were inconvenient.

>>64379197
but then why are the rules against us? why do they all exist in opposition to our desires? how can a force that exist in opposition to our happiness be considered neutral?

>>64379143
I mean you're welcome to think that but I disagree. If anything I think it's quite the opposite, if people sit down and thought about it they would see that they have a lot more going for them then they think and they have a lot more to be happy about then unhappy for. I think a lot of the times people make themselves unhappy, because they get so caught up in the bad stuff, or start taking things for granted that they don't stop and remember all the good stuff in their lives.

>>64379276
Because the rules have never been about the individual on their own. They have always been about the individual as part of a community.

>>64379276
we cannot be willed into being and at the same time be the result of a mechanical process. How can the rules of nature exist unless there is some manifest will that enforces them?

if the rules serve no purpose, then how do they exist? how do they perpetuate themselves? how do they make themselves manifest?

>>64379308
Or even the community itself, outside the individual.

I would go so far as to say that the notion, "The rules are against us." is arrogance. As much as the rules being "for" us. They simply are.

>>64379242
Why? For the same reason goyim do: because they believe Judaism is their proper path in life. Because it reminds us of the true nature of faith - it is a choice.
Something the Chasidim and most orthodox forget, what with how they constantly put down the converts. They try to marginalize them about as hard as the Ashkenazim pretend the Sephardim don't exist (at least, that’s how it was back when I lived as Jew).

>>64379352
then they are not good.

If the setting is a dystopian future, it means the Jews have been hard at work

>>64379242
I would assume if the dolphin is capable of communication and of understanding halakah and the concept of conversion then it would be reasonable to assume that a dolphin might convert for for the same reasons a goyim might convert. That is to say that they are capable of the same capacity for belief and faith that would drive anyone to join a religion. Although at that point we are basically dealing with an alien species. I admit that dolphins as they are now have no reason to convert to Judaism even if we could communicate with them, although I believe that's because they don't have the capacity to understand religion and conversion even if we could explain it to them.

>>64372412
>satmarin

What is this?

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>>64379362
Converts are put down for good reason. While the sentiment is nice of how highly they think our way of life is, they might be rushing into something they don't realize is more of a burden. Also, converts are weird, as the zeal they need to go through with this shit is astounding and can get kind of creepy. Evangelism leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and it might increase the amount of the ultra-religious who tend to get violent.

And to be fair, the Sephardim did the same marginalization with the Ashkenazim back in the day. It got to the point where Israel tried to eradicate the Yiddish language.

>>64379404
Which means the final conclusion (at least, this was the final conclusion when I first had this argument with my ex-roommate) is that we can prove another species to be equally sapient when both sides can willingly convert to each other’s religions with full understanding. Of which, it can be argued, that Judaism and Islam are the most advanced forms of the test in our side due to the complexity of the laws that must adapted to fit their species.

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not gonna lie guys. this thread went in the opposite direction I expected, and I am not disappointed

>>64379454
Thankfully my dad was reasonable about his faith (my mom was not). Although I think that mostly comes down to the rabbi he studied under in the very early 90s (forget his name, but apparently he was a Conservative rabbi in the Rochester area).
And at least the Sephardim acknowledged the existence of the Askenazim. I wasn’t told that I was part Marrano until I had left the community.

>>64378399
>>64378422
WTF I love jews now?!

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>>64379550
It's a fine line between wanting those converting to do so using reasonable methods, and giving into the reality that faith defies reason by definition.

I have to assume you are talking about New York. The Jews there don't really deal with Sephardim anymore since it's the dumping ground for the European refugees. The Chicago communities are a little better off, I hope.

Moroccan Sephardim are hilarious in that it's so easy to get them to yell at you. They aren't genuinely pissed at you, it's just that they were raised to react more often. It's like a tribe of Bakugou from that Boku no Pico Academia shit.

>>64373099
That seems great, actually

>>64379362
Yeah that's one of my biggest issues with most of the orthodox branches as a whole. Mistreating converts is a pretty fucking big sin, as is putting blocks in front of someone who genuinely wishes to become one. On a more practical level it just ensures that these communities becomes more insular and separated from the rest of the world.

>>64379454
While it is important to make sure they fully understand what they're getting into that doesn't mean they should be put down or ostracized, it means we should educate them and make sure they do know exactly what Judaism entails and then if they still want to convert they can.

>Also, converts are weird, as the zeal they need to go through with this shit is astounding and can get kind of creepy. Evangelism leaves a bad taste in my mouth
Jews don't evangelize, and the ultra-religous communities where this sort of stuff usually occurs prizes zeal and devotion to halakah in all of its other members. They have no real reason to object on that account.

Besides which none of that matters once a person has actually gone through the conversion ceremony, from that moment on they are to be treated no differently from any other member of the community. Mistreating a convert violates like 6 or 7 different mitzvot and is a huge sin, systematically ostracizing and marginalizing them is even worse, and the attempts to retroactively undo their conversion to have them declared as non-Jews is so blatantly against the Talmud it makes me genuinely angry.

>>64372486
>until the sun set, and it was local sunset rather than a specific time.
This has come up for places with extremely long days - should the period of fasting come in summer in a northerly latitude most muslims will agree on a "dawn" and work from there, with only real sticklers having a sunrise-sunset fast.

>>64379550
>part marrano
Do you guys actually use that word? It basically means pig and it's not even a good or neutral word for it. Basically saying nigger but for jews and in the past.

>>64379522
Sometimes between all the /pol/-baiting, bitching, and badwrongfun, /tg/ can still have some interesting conversations. Cause if there's one thing we have in common with the Jews, it's taking absolutely ridiculous questions totally seriously.

>>64374296
You know, that could actually make a pretty good story.

>>64375645
A lot of the more specific laws make way more sense if you remember their origins like that, and that the tribes of israel were often on military campaign - "wear fewer colours/fabrics " for example is basically just "don't waste cash, or have a fashion-based reasons for arguments".
Similarly, there's laws about human waste/where to shit, again for pre-germ health reasons and military camp operation.

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>>64369186
>ah,a fellow tleilaxu ghola

>>64378809
What about uplifted dolphins?

Actually uplifting animal intelligence might be against their laws...on the other hand, if it wasn't them who uplifted it, that might be a window

>>64379864
There is a section on what rocks to use for wiping your ass.

>>64379746
Growing up Orthodox in the Northern NJ/Philly area as the child of two converts (and according to many I was convert, since my bris wasn’t performed by an Orthodox moyel) is what made me leave the faith. Culturally I am still 100% Jew since I will pretty happily try and sit through the Talmud to make an effective Purim Torah argument and will totally apply the basic principles to non-halakik subjects. But I ain’t going back to shul. Maybe for Yom Kippur if I can find one that isn’t a bunch of Messianics in disguise.
Of course, it took my dad the convert to explain to me to that I did have the choice to leave the faith before my bar mitzvah, and it kind of hurt him a bit to hear me explain that I knew nothing substantial of any other faith, other than tales of Christians killing Jewish babies as vengeance for the blood libel stories they started themselves. (Also I literally thought as a child that they started the blood libels to get Jewish blood for their holiest of Masses and none of my teachers corrected me. I can probably blame my mother for that one).

>>64375645
>before we discovered germ theory
Oh man, that reminds me of a noble-bright GURPS game I was in

>>64379799
Guess what the Askenazim in my youth called the Sephardim who fled north? Take a good guess. It’s literally the only word I knew for that part of my heritage because my teachers pretended the Sephardim outside Amsterdam stopped existing.

>>64379934
>Also I literally thought as a child that they started the blood libels to get Jewish blood for their holiest of Masses
I love it, blood libel for blood libel leaves the whole world blood libeless.

>>64379934
>other than tales of Christians killing Jewish babies as vengeance for the blood libel stories they started themselves. (Also I literally thought as a child that they started the blood libels to get Jewish blood for their holiest of Masses and none of my teachers corrected me. I can probably blame my mother for that one).
Honestly I could see the Vatican getting up to this.

>>64379971
rhymes with mike

>>64379971
Honestly? I think. that may have been what I was taught in school.

>>64380010
Pike ?

>>64368872
Like everything else to do with Jews there would be a deep and not particularly civil disagreement about it, both sides supporting their arguments with elaborate rules lawyering.

>>64380094
Ands it’s all because of the 2-4 Jews in here.
It might just be two of us making arguments against our own arguments and then arguing against those. But it’s probably 4. Maybe 3. And three Jews gives you infinite opinions (start with three opinions - yours, the one you agree with, and the one you disagree with. Then craft compromises that you can and cannot agree with and continue the chain until it becomes ridiculous)

If jews codes an AI is the AI jew?

>>64380053
No, dike!

>>64380362
only if its a jewess that codes it

>>64380366
If the obviously sexless AI that is jew codes another AI is the next AI jew too?

>>64380365
strange way to spell Bike

>>64380386
it would depend on what gendered pronoun the sexless AI's builder used to describe the sexless AI
a ship is referred to as she; but is obviously sexless, the self aware creation of a sentient ship, that was Jewish, would be a Jew by proverbial birth

>>64379852
It’s easier to argue the Talmud since you don’t have to worry about marketing mandating changes to the content and pretending previous versions didn’t exist.
Of course, they got the idea from the Protestants, making modern fandom of long running content like trying to reconcile two English translations of the Old Testament with the Torah - where the fuck did this phrase come from, fanfiction? Did you just remove a pair of lines? Are you sure you wanted to use that word? You used five words when this one word has the definition you wanted?

>>64380393
Sike!

>>64380488
Like !

>>64380366
No, if the programmer is a Jew, regardless of sex. Of course, the project manager does not need to be a Jew, but the programmer who wrote the most code over the entire run of the project would be considered the mother since they did the most work in bringing the AI to life.

>>64380501
Tyke

>>64380650
Nike

>>64380651
That only works visually.
Did he mean kite? It follows the rhyme pattern of I-(hard consonant)-e.

>>64380680
it work phonetically in france tho, we don't pronounce it Ni-key
and close i think he meant Trike

>>64380707
Maybe spike?

In the interest of more /tg/ related Purim Torah...
If the Imperial Creed was not mandatory, what are the halakik considerations a Jewish Space Marine would habe to deal with?