My table got tired of it after a few sessions, ymmv.

>>85292629
Which one did you run?
What do you think caused them to get tired of it?

>>85292532
I once did an entire campaign in the Caverns of Thracia, does that count? I do kind of cringe to think back on that campaign, I was young and very inexperienced and I would do a hell of a lot differently now, but I had fun and I think the players were having fun. If they weren't then they were putting a hell of a lot of effort into pretending to have fun.
The key advice that I would give (that I would also give to my 19-year-old self to make that campaign less of a clusterfuck) is:
- There is no such thing as too many hooks/side quests. You can't predict what players will seize on, so make sure there's enough stuff that they'll find something to do.
- Factions are fun, but to get that fun there have to be ways of interacting with them that don't involve killing. Sentient encounters should very rarely fight to the death.
- Restocking a previous area should be all-or-nothing, usually. Isolated random encounters on the way to the new content isn't that exciting. Have a wizard take over the area or a band of exiled goblins move in or a plague of rats or something else dramatic. Obviously don't do this all the time or they'll never get past the first floor.
Best of luck.

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>>85293196
>Factions are fun, but to get that fun there have to be ways of interacting with them that don't involve killing. Sentient encounters should very rarely fight to the death.
I'm definitely aware of this, but I don't know if my players are going to be capable of it. I've told them that fighting everything will result in certain death and that they will have to come up with intelligent solutions to problems and two of them seemingly took this as a challenge and made combat monsters with no ability to do anything outside combat. I told them to have backup characters ready since you can't parry poisonous gas.

>>85292532
>I'm converting it into GURPS
This is one of the most retarded things you can do, second only to converting to D&D 5e and tied with converting it to D&D 3e. The megadungeon can only work with TSR D&D, its clones, and very closely related systems that keep the same resource-focused gameplay loop. It's not a place for heroic adventure, hack-and-slash, or storytelling.

>>85293848
>you can never convert anything ever, everything has to stay in the system it was designed for
I don't think you know what you're talking about. I've converted tons of stuff into other systems because I thought the creator did a good job and wanted to use their book/dungeon/adventure in the game I was running. I converted a WHFRPG Adventure module to GURPS as well, are you trying to tell me and my players we didn't play that right and had the wrong type of fun?

>>85293947
He’s an OSR dipshit, of course he’ll tell you you’re having the wrong kind of fun, that’s basically all they do.

>>85294455
GURPS honestly does a fantastic job of capturing the feel OSR goes for while actually adding on to the lethality and allowing for deeper mechanics. I honestly don't see how someone who enjoys OSR wouldn't enjoy running the same thing in GURPS.

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I have never run one but a while back I was working on designing my own lizardmen/dinosaur themed mega dungeon.

Found the old overview I made for the discrete zones.

>>85292532
Played in ASE for over a year, was superb, cleared it out and moved onto other (but smaller) dungeons.

Almost cleared it out, not fully.

Fantastic, might be the only way to play.

>>85294522
My first experience with GURPS in earnest was a megadungeon that, while short lived due to the GM's IRL issues, gave me exactly the sort of intensely resource focused, cautious gameplay prior Anon says is impossible, and that 3.5 and later editions of D&D never really delivered on for me.
I've since taken up GMing it and this is exactly the kind of game I run, and that I feel it excels at.

>>85295354
What's ASE?

>>85294522
How can one best run OSR-type games in GURPS? I’m looking into running a GURPS game and I’d like to do something like that, but I’d love advice from a veteran in that field if there’s any dos or don’ts to be aware of.

>>85296147
Run Dungeon Fantasy.
ENFORCE EQUIPMENT WEIGHT!!!!!!!!
If it's not on the character sheet, they don't have it. Make this clear at the beginning, tolerate no backsass.
DO NOT allow books outside of DF, no Martial Arts especially.
Use the lower point DF templates if you want.
Don't give players an out, if they opened the chest like a dipshit and got stabbed it really is save or die. Don't try to give them some affliction, they either make the HT roll or the character is dead.

>>85296200
I run everything with martial arts, and I generally find the assumed skill levels in Dungeon Fantasy to be detrimental to feeling like starting characters. Not a huge fan of it in general.
What all about Martial Arts do you take to be broken?

>>85296147
>>85296200
Also, if someone wants to take a race aside from human, they lose advantages (not skills) from their class equal to the positive value of the class, ignoring negative points from disadvantages as they already are receiving 50 points from their class advantage.
>>85296217
DF has lower point templates
Martial Arts has too many ways for players to nullify combat encounters unless you build every monster with martial arts in mind. It also slows down combat.

>>85296240
It does, that's fair. It just never quite felt like what I was going for, but it's a good jumping off point, for sure.
And I...honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've been running with MA for well over a year, and nothing specifically from it has resulted in any encounters just not happening.

>>85296272
I play with people who make every character an exercise in pushing the system to it's limits. My GM style is built around playing with people who munchkin to the point it's barely even a game unfortunately.

>>85294522
nta. lolno but that's okay play stonehell with gurps, you'll get the results you deserve.
Its a shitty megadungeon, megadungeons are only barely viable in practice regardless and osr is not just a filter you can swap onto everything.

>>85296291
k

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>>85295309
>the aviary
https://youtu.be/GjqjVzKzIQg

>>85296281
Ah yes, the "80 pts in sword, TA:eyes, spurious justifications for striking strength 5 rapier man," crowd. I've had to deal with that sort of shit once.
I'm lucky to have players who generally understand that if you want to break GURPS, it just rolls over and presents itself. It's not designed to be powergamed like D&D.

>>85296358
Lmao that literally was one of their last characters

>>85296371
Yeah that shit doesn't fly with me.
Armor chinks are -3 ontop of,and you can't target eyes on creatures that aren't at least SM+2 or have extremely prominent eyes anyway.
The back of the book says SL 20-ish is "The greatest practitioner of the art alive today.' You are some schmuck in a dungeon. Don't try to justify SL 30+ to me. Frankly you should be happy to live at 16 where the combat system still functions properly.
You can have one level of striking strength. maybe more if your archetype is esoteric martial arts.
And you don't get 'fencing parries' because the devs are retards and that's not how swords work.
Also, cue the creatures with no eyes,or precise hearing and a helmet with no eye slits. Please tell me how you Eye chink target double deceptive a slime monster with no organs. And it's diffuse so don't whine to me that your exploit with the broken math for "edged rapiers," isn't helping.

It gets so tiring. And cue the "I'm underpowered compared to the rest of the party" whining when they purposefully take -15 to hit with all the crap they tack on to their attack and only hit like every 3rd turn. Also their turn takes the longest.

>>85296511
Classic. Yeah, the only way I've managed to deal with such people is to tell them to make a character and not a netdeck number pile, or walk. Their choice.

>>85296314
Pretty much yeah

>>85293947
>you can never convert anything ever
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Would you use D&D 5e to run VtM or GUMSHOE to run Conan?

>>85294522
>adding on to the lethality
Where are the proofs?

>>85292629
Who wouldn't? Mega dungeons are the most boring pointless shit ever

>>85300881
Megadungeons are more popular than ever, m8. They are actually published now. When were quality megadungeons ever published back in the day? TSR's attempts were bloody sad.

>>85302232
>'t target eyes on creatures th
whats a good megadungeon to start? Im also playing gurps, with little experience and only using Basic Set with a little bit of Fantasy

>>85294455
Fuck that, I'm an OSR dipshit and I think people ought to steal and convert. I even ran Stonehell for my 5e-only friends by grabbing equivalent monsters, halving the encounter amounts, and dropping in timekeeping, reaction rolls, and morale. They got through a trap by pushing the map-making NPC into it, only to realize their map got incinerated with the NPC. Then they got ambushed by skeletons and made into thralls. They had fun, though the game fell apart due to COVID.
The only problem of converting a megadungeon is the tedium of finding/creating equivalent statblocks for creatures, especially if they're the stranger ones found in levels 6-10. As long as you have a solid bestiary, you should be able to fill in the gaps.

>>85292532
I'll tell you this: While I've always wanted to run a Megadungeon, my group takes long enough just to explore a normal sized two-story dungeon in an OSR game. They have literally spent 12 sessions mapping out two floors that are shaped like 8s (just two looping sets of rooms each.)
I can't imagine them exploring a whole Megadungeon.

>>85292532
>I'm converting it into GURPS
based


Question for people who do this megadungeon shit though: I've always enjoyed fairly RP-heavy games as compared to most people. I like my combat just as much as the average person, but I want my RP to go with it either before, during, or after.

When I think of a "mega dungeon" I imagine the game being devoid of RP and basically just a videogame except in the form of a TTRPG. Am I wrong in that view? And if I'm not wrong, why in the hell would anyone enjoy that?

>>85302466
>I can't imagine them exploring a whole Megadungeon.
Kind of the point, it's traditionally supposed to be limitless content, not really something that can be 'won'. I tell ya, if I was using an existing megadungeon and a decade later I thought someone was about to come close to having the whole thing licked, I'd just add more levels.

>>85302512
>Am I wrong in that view?
Yes. You have it exactly back-to-front.
Honestly the modern storygame style is more videogamey, with everything that's not combat being dumbed down to a series of skill checks, I daresay that storygames are the true mindless hack & slash style of play that videogames do better.

>>85302512
At least in Stonehell, a lot of the factions inside of a megadungeon can be parleyed with, and there's even neutral territories where player characters are able to make deals or even allies of dungeon denizens. If it's a monster zoo where nearly every monster fights to the death it's fucking boring, see Abomination Vaults book one.

>>85302620
>with everything that's not combat being dumbed down to a series of skill checks
I feel like I'm speaking to a schizophrenic. What are you talking about Jessie?

>>85296118
Anomalous Subsurface Environment

>>85301369
Yeah but what if the GM did something to where it wasn't that way?

>>85302374
>fuck that I'm an FOE

>>85302374
You are not an OSR dipshit then, you are an OSR chad. Dogmatic adherence to arbitrary devisions between rightfun and wrongfun is what separates the two.

>>85303951
OSR playstyle and procedures are absolutely worth researching and playing as-is, especially just straight-up B/X and AD&D, but it's tiring seeing retards angrily screaming at one another because someone uses separate race and class or ascending AC instead of descending.

>>85292532
I've always wanted to trap a party in a randomly generated labyrinth and tell them to just go wild, but I've never really gotten the chance to.

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I've got like 100 rooms filled in... only 1,100 more to go...

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>>85309813
Way back in pubic school our teacher would hand out newspaper crosswords sometimes. I learned that it's pretty easy to make a dungeon out of them, so I collected the puzzles, converted them to dungeons and I would send a friend character through it at recess and lunchtime. I had hundreds of them in my binder.

>>85310252
That sounds neat, got any still?

>>85309813
Gonna take a long time if you keep doing it like that, m8. It looks great, but it doesn't need to look great. Nobody sees the map, why waste time with functionless decorations?

>>85312074
>Nobody sees the map
They don't?

>>85309813
Oh shit how many hours of work did you put into that map? Even a small dungeon (10~15 rooms) takes me at least 1 hour or more in Dungeondraft

>>85312267
I've been working on it for like 2 days on and off.
>>85312074
I'm doing a VTT crawl and am going to be enforcing the light rules heavily. They won't be able to see anything outside their LoS so I figured I'd let them actually crawl on a map.

>>85302512
People have said it but yeah,that's not how it's meant to work.
A dungeon's not meant to just be 'go in and kill everything.' There's supposed to be some objective, ideally. And the creatures that live there, if intelligent, are often just as likely to chat it up and negotiate as anyone else, depending on the circumstances.

Not a megadungeon, but in one very 'dungeon-clearing' focused game I do run, the party includes a few monster races expressly for this kind of shit. When your goblin pal wanders into the mess hall and talks up the other goblins about what the local ogres are doing, nobody bats an eye.

I've played in a megadungeon game where two of the characters were experiment escapees from one of the factions, that we wound up allying with in the end because another was worse, and so one of said could get close enough to the witch that mutilated her to stab her to death.

There's an infinity of RP opportunities with these setups, you js have to stop looking at 'a dungeon' like a videogame level and more like an underground ecology with things and people living in it with their own agendas.

>>85314711
If im shit at "first person roleplaying" what's the best way to do diplomacy in a game?

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>>85292532
The thing about mega dungeons is, invariably, they are largely empty. If you can hit the right mode for DMing something like this, where you use just the right amount of improvisation and embellishment they can work nicely but if you don't put enough additional spice in or you don't convincingly blend the provided material with your embellishments your party will lose their interest and if you embellish too much you will create more work for yourself because you'll quickly need to start adapting everything to what you've previously established.

If ever there was a prime genre for the "write all over your maps" method, it's in mega dungeons. In fact, you might want to print off larger versions of the maps so you have more room to make notes - also to remind you that squares on large dungeon maps are usually to a scale bigger than 5 feet

>>85316473
Get better.
Simple as.

>>85316473
What do you mean by 'first person roleplaying?'
And from what end, player or GM?

>>85310523
No most of that stuff got thrown out when we moved.

>>85317083
Gm, it's hard for me to roleplay as a ton of different NPCs.
I did just fine the one time I ever got to be a player. Being 15 different people is just harder for me.

>>85317598
GURPS has taught me a trick for that, thanks to its compulsion disads.
If an NPC isn't important enough to roleplay in full, either give them some of said disads if you're doing GURPS, or just write a number next to their character traits.
So maybe a guy's got like
Pious 12
Drunkard 14
or something like that.
Maybe make note of some things his faith finds taboo in the former case next to it. When they come up, roll against it to see if he cares (whatever's appropriate for your dice system.) If someone tries to bribe him with booze, or he sees the party drinking or whatever just roll off that to see if he can be bribed, or if he'll approach them and try to bum a swig or whatever.
Do this for whole ass races. Goblins are greedy, dwarves are distrustful of outsiders, whatever. Randomly roll the number too to see how much a given individual fits the stereotype or whatever trait you put on them.
you don't have to keep three dozen NPCs perfectly in memory at all times, let the dice do the heavy lifting. Get yourself some general reaction tables while you're at it.
People keep triyng to say the point of all those random reaction tables and things like control rolls is just 'autism' or 'inability to roleplay,' but they're there to make the GM's life easier. And they also mean you get to be surprised by NPCs just as much as the players sometimes, and thus get to actually play the game too instead of just being the meat that makes the skyrim go.

Getting rid of shit like this is why GM burnout is such a common complaint, I swear.

>>85317758
Where are good places to find resources like this?

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>>85319414
I'm just used to playing games with reaction tables and such, so I have no idea, to be honest. GURPS just has things like this built in.They used to just be normal. Here's the one from OD&D, just from a quick google search. They don't have to be a lot more complicated than this.
Honestly you're making me think I should write a short document about it myself, since I can't think of anywhere good that actually explains these kind of procedures off the top of my head.

In the event something like that isn't done before the thread dies (likely) I can at the very least answer any questions and try to provide some better examples if you need help with it somehow?

Why is it that Dungeons and Dragons is one of the worst systems for running dungeons?

>>85320768
hytnpwotcd&d?

>>85320830
Yes, the last time I touched dnd was 2009.

>>85320839
>the last time I touched dnd was when wotc was making it
What do you prefer for running dungeons?

Yeah my friend made a dwarf city with some clever stuff in it, so far have explored at least 100 rooms and have barely scratched the surface. Lost at least 10 characters in it so far, in his homebrew system which is like a more lethal version of B/X. Myself, the largest dungeon I ever ran had 150 rooms, and had a group of bandits whose hideout was being encroached upon by minflayers from the underdark.

>>85320872
GURPS and Labyrinth Lord

>>85320985
>Labyrinth Lord
So, actually just D&D without serial numbers. Come on.

>>85323163
OD&D is much better suited for dungeon crawling than modern editions

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>>85292532
I've always wanted to use this map for a mega dungeon but I fear neither myself or my players would really be up to it

>>85324472
That doesn't look too awful, really.
I imagine you're mostly stressed out about how to populate it?

>>85310252
could you give a little tutorial? id be very interested to hear your process.

https://crosswordlabs.com/view/sample-puzzle-36

>>85320985
I literally asked if you have tried not playing wotc d&d you retard.

>>85292532
I ran Barrowmaze for about a year. It was all right, but kind of unfulfilling. The whole group is having a lot more fun with out sandbox campaign right now.

Barrowmaze's layout also sucks donkey cock.

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Talking about dungeons. What is the best way to populate them? I always have trouble with this. I come up with a couple of factions but then I strugge to fill the rooms

>>85292532
I've run a lot of huge dungeons. Once the party is inside, I basically switch my own thinking into viewing the dungeon as the world itself. Allow rest areas, resupplies, possibly level-ups, even hirelings or volunteers if necessary, even at the risk of realism, keep it contained in the dungeon, but let the characters gain, grow, replenish as they go. This keeps things fresh for them without having to leave the dungeon. Have them spike doors in rooms and rest for a few days. Have a random room be a kitchen, filled with smoked meats and bread, have them find another adventurer dead with useful stuff, maybe find a captured person they can free who will act as a porter, that can help bind wounds, etc. I've run entire campaigns inside single infinite dungeons this way. Think of it like an expedition and encourage the characters to do so as well. Let them stock up before going in, make it fun, give them some extra money for ropes and rations, let them buy a mule at halfprice so he can carry stuff and they can eat him later. Wilderness based characters should really not be played, if they are, cut them some slack and throw them some bones. Let the ranger guide the party through a mushroom forest in a cavern or the elf can read magical inscriptions along the way. Keep everyone engaged, keep the dungeon varied with new possibilities, forget about realistic explanations in favour of long-term dungeon-delving.

>>85326394
Throw everything at it. Make up some realistic factions, stat them, place them. Then randomly roll, however nutty, stat them and fill some spaces. Then pick some stuff youve been wanting to try or that will help the party, stat it, place it. Then find the best random tables you like and ready them for gametime if you need extra. As above, I *always* lay realism aside in favour of fun and long-term play. If your players are pedantic or used to realistic games, get them used to zany as quickly as possible. It doesnt have to make sense its a dunngeon made by a wizard, one room might be a lonely but helpful bugbear librarian, while next door a minotaur and a green slime get drunk together, down the hall from a room filled with pastries. Just keep the momentum up and keep it fun. Use the monsters and treasures you want to use, maybe weaker versions or stronger versions or friendly versions. Cool pic as well, PORK Reader here, big fan of Aaberg.

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>>85326394
Organization tables. I'll just grab one from 3.5 as an example. So part of our dungeon is filled with goblins, let's see what we've got here

>Organization: Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), warband (10-24 with worg mounts), or tribe (40-400 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, 10-24 worgs, and 2-4 dire wolves)

Cool, it's a megadungeon so let's go with a whole ass goblin tribe. 200 warriors, 200 noncombatants, and some worgs and dire wolves.
Of our 200 noncombatants, we can assume that maybe 50% are children or adolescents, that gives us 300 adults overall.
That gets us 15 sergeants, two lieutenants, and a leader. Leaving us 172 warriors left over. Let's give each sergeant eight guys, accounting for 120 of those. 52 left, we'll give each lieutenant twenty men to form his retinue and advisory staff, and the remaining twelve will be the chieftain's direct advisory guys. We'll pick 15 worgs and give each squad one, and each of the lieutenants and the chieftain one of the dire wolves as escorts.

100 adult civilians and 100 children, we'll break them up into say, 10 sub clans with ten adults and children each. (Loose collections of women, the lame, the elderly, etc.) Each of those will support twenty-odd warriors. We'll assume the warriors are looting food and hunting to support the tribe as well as their direct military duties.

So pick about ten rooms for civilian quarters, ten more rooms for workspaces, kitchens, etc, a few big ones for mushroom farms or pig stys. Give one room to every three squads or so as barracks, one to each lieutenant and the chieftain, and save one or two for armories, training yards, etc.

Draw some patrol paths for the sergeants and either roll for encounters or periodically move squad markers around.
(cont)

>>85292532

Stonehell is excellent, since all of the floor can more or less be also ripped off and ran as separate dungeons.

The trick with megadungeons is making them alive. Combat should not be the standard play nor how the players approach to most encounters, otherwise the entire game grinds down to a slog.

Put various thing to make the levels feel connected, switch rooms between them so they have to go back and forth to fully explore a level, and they all feel more coherent.

>>85326759
Cool. Now maybe roll a reaction for each of these groups towards the chieftain. What do they think of him? Can they be bribed? Stick some notes on the markers. Maybe use their poor opinion to decide where they place internal traps near each families food stores and such because they're distrustful of each other. Roll versus each other to generate some rivalries and internal drama the players can exploit even, if you want to go all in.

Apply traps to their treasure rooms and valuables. Apply booby traps, alarms, and pratfall shit to their patrol paths. Place some squads on permanent guard duty where their territory intersects someone else they don't like. Also a good place to throw some more mundane traps and barricades around.

Possibly draw up some paths where their civilians go to fish or trade if you feel like it.

Roll for any empty rooms in their territory for shit like undead, slimes, lingering monsters that explain why they don't go there.
Roll a D6 and if it's a 6 their livestock is some dangerous bullshit that may actually be a problem. Shit like that.

And there you go. Rinse and repeat.

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>>85326731
>>85326759
>>85326820
Thanks anons, your advices are a blessing

>>85326820
pretty rad man, id mix it up a bit more tho. give one squad almost all the wargs, make them the designated fast attack unit. the flankers.

give one squad all the wolves, they will be trackers,
another squad has better armor and weapons (the boss's) they be the heavy hitters
and the last squad has nothing special, they are the weak links.

if each squad has a different personality and some symbol that lets the players know who they are fighting ahead of the inevitable ambush or other shift in the battlefield towards the particular squads favored tactics, and therefor gives the players something to think about and come up with creative ways to counter, or if they die then it was a fair fight and they had some good intel they could have used.

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>>85327093
Yeah absolutely man. Breaking them up like I did is just the beginning. Have a worg handler squad, an armor squad. Stick shamans with some of them. Pick one whose friend with an ogre from down the hall and he fights with them sometimes. Give them symbols and rivalries and special tactics. Make one of them from a different bloodline that has a template or gills or something and hangs out in the river with tridents.
Once you start putting them in rooms, you'll start getting ideas too. "Why do these guys live near the river? Why is this group's room bigger? What do they use this weird terrain feature for?"
In summary, do the basics, do the rolls, but when you actually put stuff on the map, never stop asking "but why?" You'll surprise yourself.

>>85320976
What was clever about it?

>>85327176
>Catalog
you know whats up man, i bet your dungeons are killer

>>85324621
It's a combination of things. That's part of it, also just coming up with a coherent story to hold it all together. There's also deciding what to actually run it in, and convincing my friends to play it since this isn't really their thing

>>85332708
Fair. I don't tend to worry about coherent stories when I design this sort of thing. They manage themselves, one way or another, and I never found them to be particularly the point.
Deciding what to run it in is hard if you're not already set on something, yeah, can't much help there beyond yelling "GURPS" like a retard.
And friends are hard, though hopefully if you're enthusiastic about it enough for long enough they'll see what you're on about.

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>>85326394
Focus on the game impacting contents of each room and find pieces that fit around that. A simple method is to use a repeating process of 1-2 good rooms, 1-3 neutral/nothing rooms, 1-2 bad rooms, 1 weird room, repeat ad nausea until your dungeon is finished.
>good rooms
Positive outcome for the PC's entering. NPC with aid or information, items to acquire, a safe place to rest, refill resources, trade goods and services, acquire quest/important items, etc.
>neutral rooms
Great for describing the dungeon. Fill it with unusual terrain or landmass, rivers, NPC's that are indifferent to the PCs, messages or notes, destroyed or left behind items of little value, evidence of a former fight/confrontation, etc.
>bad rooms
Enemies, traps, things that take away resources from players or try to stop them from reaching their objective.
>weird room
The weird rooms give the most flavor to a dungeon and are usually the most memorable parts of them. A weird room can be anything, hostile, good, or indifferent to the PC's. In a fantasy dungeon this looks like dancing spirits who ignore the PC's, strong magic with any effect imaginable in the room, an orb with a gravitational sphere that sucks everything nearby onto it, a circular room that rotates and reconfigures part of the dungeon, a room full of mirrors and levers and trap doors, or a puzzle for the PC's to solve.

>>85325388
Labyrinth Lord isn't based on a WotC DnD, it's based on TSR.

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so speaking of megadungeons - lets cover some great ones:
-Caverns of Thracia
-Stonehell
-Xyntillan
-Barrowmaze
-Dark Tower (maybe?)
any others i'm missing?

>>85335131
Supposedly Anomolous Subsurface Environment is good.

>>85324165
Certainly true but lacking in relevance. LL is a clone of B/X and you know it.

>>85335432
Which isn't WotC and you (should) know it.

>>85335461
I never said it was, I never implies it was and nobody else did either. He said the last time he touched D&D was 2009. LL is closer to D&D than any WotC trash could ever be, so I'm commenting his misleading comment.