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>TL;DR Doc (WIP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LxdaGoBlJRTMuziMDupG5TeeFwNDnsIW2pfaRAcFDgA
> Lore Doc
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bRrxdD1BMLmcMDFeszwqg2Rcjrt8DDo7tjAxoOB6KQ8
> Rules Doc
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1njSLKKQFa9ri4w3A_09JW78uXFbFOFf8XVjncxPYIC8
> Unit Spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcleQtrT4Q0INiBW50-kq2ZXWJ-cjLOeVTLTJg_oX5E

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Reposting surfacers, also the old one
>>88692518

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Reposting underworlders.

I'm awaiting anon's doc about the units and combat rules before posting anything else

Given how Chart/Portraitanon is currently working on leaders, this might be a good opportunity to discuss them as units. I'll repost some stuff:
Vritravana, the Prophet-Lord
>Flying a fucking Firesaur (ignores terrain, 3D maneuvering)
>AOE fire attack with morale damage, like Greek Fire? Also Bite Attack.
>"The Prophecy Foretold Your Death!" - this Prophecy makes the next attack against a unit be an auto hit and do max damage. You still roll for any special effect purposes.
>Prophecy aura that let's any unit ignore/reroll Perils once per battle?
Bophades/Aristocles aka Atlantean aristocrat. He can be a bit of a meme. He doesn't want to be here. He's not a fighter. This whole expedition was probably a plot by his enemies to get rid of him. He wishes he was in his ocean-side manor drinking mushroom wine. But he has business acumen, diplomatic connections and a strong desire to get this over with.
>Very high Financials
>Can recruit a limited number of Colonials
>Morale aristocrat buff/commoner debuff (only Atlanteans)
>+1 Dex for all units? (Projects his cowardice and desire to get out into extra movement speed for troops, also synergizes with the Cataphracts)
>Lower supply consumption?
>More efficient workers?

What about Ozymandias? Because his portrait is coming next.

>>88708594
>Pic related : Julius Verne pierce the firmament in the great canon to observe the Ether
You know I'm starting to think it's suspicious that Julius is as sane as he is after everything he saw.

>>88708821
>Julius Verne is still sane because he’s the only one acknowledging how deeply fucked up everything is

>>88708802
Ozymandias, the First Prophet
>Lead his broken and divided people to the ruins of Old Lemuria, long ago
>Teached them the art of prophecy and self-improvement
>Achieved spiritual ascencion and eventually stopped moving
>Now look like a mumified and fossilied statue
>Degenerated Lemurian servants carry him around on wordless orders, most who approach him die in horrible pain
>Mind-beam ennemies and give insane prophecy, might come at a terrible price
>Each generation, choose among the chariot kings one to raise as Prophet-Lord, marking him with the symbol of Old Lemuria
>He await He who come with the Dawns, King of Kings, who will lead Lemurian to the surface once more

Two questions:
1) Do we have a map?
2) This seems to be a skirmish game. Why is there so much focus on named characters? Wouldn't it be better to flesh out general/generic leader units?

>>88709063
Star Wars Legion syndrom.

Working on summarizing the current rules and need some input on armor.
So far the damage formula seems to be: diceroll + weapon AP - Armor
It works well for melee weapons, but I'm kinda stumped on how we can approach guns
Cover gives additional armor against attacks, half-cover +5, full-cover +10

Would something like this work?
>Armor:
>0 - Nothing - Colonial troops mostly wear this
>1 - Light - Padded armor
>2 - Medium - Chainmail style
>3 - Heavy - Plate
>Weapon AP:
>0 - Tools, knifes, etc.
>1 - Bladed weapons with large damage die
>2 - Crushing weapons, small calibers
>3 - Rifles
>12 - Cannons, obliterate both cover and the poor soul hiding behind it
>>88709063
1) Kinda, you're supposed to bring your own mini hex maps and assemble them into a bigger map. Not sure about campaign maps yet
2) Anons really, really like making characters. And yes, it would be better

>>88709334
Yeah (if Titanium armor is something even above plate of course).

>>88709334
>1) Kinda, you're supposed to bring your own mini hex maps and assemble them into a bigger map. Not sure about campaign maps yet

This sounds clunky. I understand what you're going for but I strongly feel it could be done differently without creating a byzantine pastiche. Either way this is not here nor there, I just wanted to look at a map of the game world.
>2) Anons really, really like making characters. And yes, it would be better
Which is fine and dandy if it was a /yourdudes/ kinda thing, isn't it skirmish games exactly the venue to do this?

>>88709414
Map of the world would be extremely difficult to do considering the whole thing is made up of 9 different layers, each one theoretically only a little smaller than the one above. Current plan for a gameworld map is pick a region, e.g Paris and the layers below, and go from there, I think.

>>88709334
It might be an unpopular opinion but how about make armour the way Warhammer40k did Armour for vehicles in 7th edition?
If it's a more skirmish oriented game then individual units should matter more
>separate armour values for head, torso and legs (maybe abdomen instead?)
>armour value is the limit the weapon damage + its penetration has to be above to deliver any damage
>a damage table of additional negative things that happen on penetration
>+1 flesh wound (no effect), +2-3 deep wound (bleeding, takes 1 passive damage per turn, unit only has 1 action point per activation unless treated by a medic), +4-5 lethal wound (unit is stunned until treated by a medic, 3 turn timer until instant death), +6 instant death

>the system makes cheap weapons virtually useless against high armour enemies
>makes weapons that would have high armour penetration like cannons realistic in a sense that they would instantly obliterate a human hit by it
>shows the brutality of conflict in those times virtually any bullet can be lethal to a man or incapacitate them for the rest of the battle
I haven't seen any shooting/hit mechanics in the docs, do all weapons automatically hit? Would it be better to declare what you're aiming for while shooting or rather the place you hit be determined on your shooting dice roll?

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TRACTION ENGINE:
>When I was a boy, said my Daddy to me: “Stay out of The Mines, Take my warning” Said he,
>“Or with dust you’ll be choked and a Pauper you’ll be, broken down, down, down.”
I should have listened to him, I should have plugged my ears with soot when the military men came a’knocking.
It’s too late now.
You see, back in London I worked on the Metropolitan Line, The fancy new Underground Metropolitan Line. Choking smoke and choking darkness, hotter than hell, stradlin’ an overpressured tea-kettle racing along the tracks, screeching like ol’ Boney himself. I lived for it, for the speed, the danger, and the camaraderie between the crews. Most days I worked with a chap called Old Stanley Caine. He stoked the coal, I worked the levers and dials. We worked quiet in the dark, but back at the shed we’d get to talking, old Caine and myself. He was a veteran of the Mutiny, always ready with some fresh story, each more outlandish than the last. I don't suspect he enjoyed telling me them, but old Caine acted like it was his Clacker-Given mission to give me the whole story. He’d talk about the jungle ambushes that were impossibly well planned, how blood-sworn foes of centuries put aside their hatreds in mere days to fight the Crown, how even his own Sepoy mates would turn on him, some glassy-eyed and others twisted with hate. After a couple months together he even told me how he once loved an Indian garrison maid, and how they were to be wed. But on the night before the ceremony she ran at him, wielding a dagger with a spiraling, twisting blade, weeping indigo tears from blank eyes.
I’d have called him barmy if he took any joy from the stories, but it was his sadness that convinced me of his sincerity. Old Caine was a miserable man, I half suspect he took the underground job just so he could work himself to death.
‘Course, that all changed when the army men showed up.

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One summer morning the whole line was shut down, and all the drivers gathered together outside the sheds. A Clacker-Boffin type, big goggles and big brown overcoat, plus half-dozen or so of Her Majesty’s finest lined us up. The Boffin walked up and down, a sheaf of oversized punch-cards in his hands. He’d scrutinize each crewman, look at the cards, and then say.
>”You may go.”
Eventually it was just myself, Old Caine, and a dozen or so crewmen well-known for their recklessness. The Boffin then stuffed his cards into the pockets of his big coat and pulled himself up to a parade stance.
>”Gentleman, I have a proposition. A lifetime’s pension, and a generous one at that, for six months of work. What’s more, you would be given a chance to work with the most cutting edge motive technology in the world, and see sights never dreamt of by most citizens of the Empire.”
The younger crewmen perked up at this, but the older men chuckled to themselves. After many questions, but only a few answers, about half of the men stepped forwards. The others left quickly, not looking back.
The next month is a haze to recall. On a flat plain near the coast we were tested. Not so much tested as probed, really. There were physical exams, and technical ones, but mostly the Officers were interested in our minds. We’d start the day with a phrenological exam, two dozen forceps pinching our skulls. Next they would show us photographs of strange places and things, eventually we would even see a few in person. Things that made you dizzy to look at, little stone things that weren’t quite stone. In one of the following phrenological exams a couple crewmen were taken away by soldiers. I don’t think they got to go home.
Old Caine passed easily, I think he liked being told exactly what to do by men in uniform, old habits and all that. I had trouble passing the climbing and digging tests, but soon toughened up. At the end, only 8 men remained. It was then they told us our new duty.

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Traction Engines! Like those you see on a farm, but with pedrail wheels instead of normal ones. Each one was uparmoured too, with a swiveling six-pounder in back. I was skeptical that they could even move when I first saw one, but my jaw nearly hit the floor when I saw it top 10 mph on rocky ground! The Boffins told us that the boilers were reinforced with Titanium, the same stuff they’re using in all the fancy new Analytical Engines nowadays. We’d all known that we were going underground by then, but the exact specifics were only revealed on the ship to Gibraltar. Apparently there were some tunnels in The Rock, tunnels that went all the way down. The Empire had been widening them to use for a new trade route but they hit an unfriendly force. When the sergeant briefing us called them “Ripplies'' I saw Caine’s eyes light up with a violent fire.
>”Lemurians, Henry. They’re Lemurians. “Ripplies” is what we called them in the Mutiny, the few times we actually saw them.”
>”It’s because of the spiral holes in their heads, like ripples. Freaks and scum the lot of them, utter Bastards.”
Old Caine changed after that. I’d see him making drawings of the Tractors, talking to the Boffins about adjustments and the like. He claimed one out for our crew, and started tinkering with it every night in the ship’s hold. He even painted the Union Jack on it, big on the side. Took to calling it “Arya.” As for myself, I was torn between boyish excitement and a deep unease. I wanted that pension for myself and the missus back in Southwark, but this was seeming more and more like a one-way trip. The engines were beautiful, and powerful, but I didn’t know if they would be enough.
We landed in Gibraltar soon enough. Our engines drove through the streets in green livery, flag-bunting strung from the smokestacks. The whole city gathered to cheer us on as we approached The Rock. There were four engines in total, two extra from Cardiff

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We were heroes of the Empire! Bright red jackets and fancy helmets, big smiles despite the soot on our faces. When we entered the tunnel the music of the surface carried with us for a time. Arya ran smooth after the first few minutes, smoother than any Metropolitan train. Our two gunners were tucking into a lunchpail while Caine stoked and I drove. We had thirty or so footsloggers with our little armada, laborers and infantrymen, and a Boffin-type who kept running between the engines, tapping on the boilers with a wrench and checking a punch-card.
The tunnels were roughly dug, with cast iron-beams lining the walls. Old Caine didn’t sleep when we stopped to make camp. I recall hearing him whisper to Arya while I slept. He had stopped telling me war stories at the first mention of Ripplies, but now he started telling the whole crew how to fight, and fight like a madman.
It was a decent slope down, and at our pace I reckon it took about a day and a half to make it all the way down. When we reached the end of the artificial tunnel we all gasped, even Caine and the Boffin. The tunnel let out on a cavern so vast we couldn't see the other side or ceiling with our lights. What we did see, perhaps two miles out, was a purple-haze reflected on a black-glass lake. That was the Ripplies’ settlement, a border outpost on the edge of a sea. We had sentries at the exit of the tunnel, hard looking men with disheveled uniforms and ringed eyes. There were Ghurka-soldiers with them too, sharpening Kukri blades grimly. They looked at our Tractors with disinterest and perhaps disdain, but we continued on. The ground was rocky, but not too bad. Engine No.4 jammed itself down a crevasse, but we had to keep on or risk an ambush. They said that men would be sent to retrieve the crew, I don’t think they ever were.
Where the metropolitan was hot and smoky, this place was cold and wet. A freezing half-rain dripped from the invisible ceiling, stinging with each drop.

>>88709828
>Map of the world would be extremely difficult to do considering the whole thing is made up of 9 different layers,
Can't we just map layer by layer?

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Moving slowly to let the footsloggers keep up, we reached the gates in perhaps four hours of marching. Our engine light gave us an island of vision, keeping the darkness at length. The Boffin couldn’t stop talking. He rambled about the deeper caves, and false-suns, but mostly about Lemurian Prophecies and how they must be rubbish.
When we reached the gate, they were waiting for us.
There were five chariots , two brutish figures that looked more like bears than men, and a group of armored men with spears. On top of the outposts gates chanted tattooed figures with drums and chimes, and the Ripple-holes in their heads. Compared to our group they looked primitive and foolish, yet I felt afraid.
There was a pause, neither side willing to advance first. The Boffin stepped forwards to say something, but was cut off by the perfect English of the lead Charioteer, a gilded, regal figure.
>”You have come here to die, unenlightened outlanders. Turn back with your toys and-”
I never heard his final word, Old Caine had fired the first shot from our 6-pounder. The Chariot, the not-camels pulling it, and the Petty King exploded, showering his men with gore and gold. I could have sworn I saw the King smile as the gun fired, like he knew it was coming.
Yet just at that moment, the chanting figures upon the wall madly howled, and Engine No.3 promptly exploded.
The battle started then, the last two engines letting loose on the chariots, which wheeled around our own men. The Boffin shouted specific positions for soldiers by name, but he caught a javelin in the throat for his trouble. We got a few good volleys in, but the armored spearmen moved faster than any soldiers I’d ever seen, reaching our line too quick. We focused on the Chariots, and got each last one. By that time half our men were gone, and the two brutes had ripped apart the armour on Engine No.1, pulping the crew. The Blue giant stayed behind to smash infantry, but the Red one began closing on us.

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Our Gunners fled, trying to get to the exit. I would have followed, but Old Caine stayed and I couldn’t leave him.
>”Henry! Aim the gun at the Ripplies on the gate!”
“But there’s a giant coming right at us!” I retorted, following his orders anyways.
>”Just trust me boy! Now fire!”
The old stonework of the gate shattered like a cup of crockery hurled against a wall. The mystics fell in bits and pieces like abattoir rain, halting the rest of the foe as they stared. We had the advantage, we could win!
Then the Red Giant put an armoured fist through our boiler.
Arya shrieked like a kettle for a brief moment, before a roar of shrapnel and steam was all I could hear.
When I awoke, The Blue Giant was dragging the Red one away, alive but burnt on its arm. Our soldiers clustered around the burning wreck of Arya, using her for cover and light, laying volleys into the last foes. There was a tremor, distantly I could see dozens of lights rounding the shore of the great lake. Enemy cavalry! Morale finally broke, and our men began to run back to the tunnel entrance. I saw Caine then, he helped me to my feet.
>”Go Henry. Ascend now and never return”
“But what will you do?”
>”I’m going to stay Henry. I must.”
>”For Arya”
And so I limped the distance back. They gave me the pension, though less than promised. They gave me a medal too, and a parade. They didn’t give me my left eye back, or my left arm. I try to enjoy life, but the Missus doesn't look at me the same and I don’t see her the same either anymore. I hear they’re sending more engineers down now, men used to work in rail-tunnels and mineshafts. I hope the darkness is kinder to those men, that the underground world can be civilized in time. I doubt it though.
When I think of Old Caine, I wonder how he’s doing underground. I know he didn’t die.
He has a duty, a vendetta against Lemuria, he cannot die until it is done.
Because when he said “For Arya,” he didn’t mean the Engine.

This has been a repost of "Traction Engine," a short story from the back of the 3rd edition British Sourcebook. I hope you all enjoyed!

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I hate Atlan and Atlan posters.

>>88710145
That's pretty kino anon.

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I know this isn't the thread, but can we please retcon it so that all the dinosaurs in this setting are the early, very inaccurate Victorian version of dinosaurs

>>88710644
I'll post some fun historical facts that inspired it in a bit.

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>>88710684

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>>88710701

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>>88710711

>>88708973
>>Lead his broken and divided people to the ruins of Old Lemuria, long ago
Old Lemurian Ruins are honestly a GREAT potential tilemap / skirmish zone. Opportunity for unique Artifacts there.

>>88710695
Do, it's always fun. Love the mention of the Chariot king knowing he was gonna get blasted by a canon.
>>88710684
On one hand it's funny, on the other T-rex and Triceratops are cool.

>>88710684
>I know this isn't the thread, but can we please retcon it so that all the dinosaurs in this setting are the early, very inaccurate Victorian version of dinosaurs
Fucking hell yes we can. They're no more or less accurate than the featherless Jurassic Park dinosaurs, so I'm on buard.

>>88710730
now that looks like a Satsuma Saur Rider mount to me if I've ever seen one.

>>88710792
>On one hand it's funny, on the other T-rex and Triceratops are cool.
T-Rex is slightly cliche but I'm more than on board with mixing the adorable Victorian dinosaur style with modern "Cool as fuck" dino fashion.

Maybe the Tricerotops is the king of the under-jungle.

>>88710684
>>88710792
>>88710800
What if there’s regular dinosaurs that migrated to lower layers from the surface, and then those degenerated into the Saurs and such of the deep. There could still be populations of surface dinosaurs in some places, but there would also be room for the wacky Victorian saurs as underworld mutants.

>>88710847
>What if there’s regular dinosaurs that migrated to lower layers from the surface, and then those degenerated into the Saurs and such of the deep. There could still be populations of surface dinosaurs in some places, but there would also be room for the wacky Victorian saurs as underworld mutants.
An excuse to take the best from both worlds is perfect honestly.

>>88710847
Alternatively, the Victorian style dinosaurs are just what the dinosaurs of previous layers looked like.
Plus, this lets us add Hyperborean dinosaurs with psychedelic plumage.

>>88710811
Yeah I know, but be honest, T-rex is cool, even if it's overused.
Beside
>Slightly cliche
Look at this setting bro

>>88710792
Traction Engine fun facts:
>The term "Ripplies" was inspired by British nicknames for Sudanese warriors in the 1890s "Fuzzies"
>The British have a habit of giving their enemies names ending with -y, or -ie, such as Jerry or Frenchie
>Speaking of the French: Henry refers to "Old Boney" at one point. This is actually a reference to Napoleon, who was called Boney by the British. By the 1870s it seems like this term has started to be used in a similar capacity to the Devil
>The photographs of a treaded traction engine are of the Hornsby Mammoth, which actually existed!
>The images of an armed traction engine are from the Anime Steamboy
>Did the Lemurian Mystics cause engine No.3 to explode or merely predict a mechanical failure? You decide!
>The Rock of Gibraltar is well known in the real-world for the network of tunnels within it, so it's not an impossible stretch to say an underground entrance could be found within
>I considered doing Iceland, but decided on Gibraltar because I could have more of a parade scene
>Is Phrenology legitimate science in this fictional universe? I have no idea!
>It was mentioned in the story, but the reason Metropolitan railway crew and Cardiff miners were chosen to drive is that they'd be more acclimated to volatile machinery and cramped tunnels.
>Did you notice the two very special cameos? That's right! Gog and Magog scored two Tractor kills, the most of anyone in the story! Our rockbreaking boys lived to fight another day, though they'll need a bit of patching up
>Old Caine's name is a portmanteau of the two main actors in Zulu, a film I like very much.
And lastly, a new character unit!
>Old Caine
>British character
>Takes command of nearby Tractor Engines to buff them, but increases explosion risk
>No official model, generally kitbashed from a Seargeant
>Combat bonuses against Prophecy-based characters

>>88711531
Yeah I noticed Magog punching a boiler like a madlad. Trully a unmatched genius.

>>88711552
>"Oi, Gog, wot you fink'll 'appen if I hit dat shiny fing real 'ard?"
>"I bet proffies say it'll blow up!
>"You always proffin' dat one, an' it never blows up. Just watch!"
>And then it blew up.

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>>88710009
>>88710025
>>88710056
>>88710070
>>88710095
Seems insane to have a Jules Vernes settings with steam tanks and not have the OG steam tank Jules Vernes himself imagined included...

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>>88711921
The Paris-Tokyo under-rail has not been established yet

Quick bump
working on Ozy portrait rn so not posting much

>My Garde Républicaine walk over a fault and start putting bullets in Atlan mystics with his lebell
>Flee through the toxic champ terrain (lmao what poison manletwalkers ?) when the Immortal approach
>Just as I reach a good position to start lobbing shoot above the cover again the fucking Springgunner take a max range shoot, crit and immediatly splatter my guard head over the ceilling
Who the fuck at this shit company decided that it was a good idea to give fucking ATLAN such a good sniper ?

France, Britain and America need their top Leader. President / Prime Minister or at least top general in charge of the underground etc.

>>88709873
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18uxJWJkz44BRbOdodhLoir7Yog5tXHmO1bS-RIKWC4k/edit?usp=sharing
an addendum to my previous post, with some propositions, tell me what you think anons, I appreciate all comments

>>88713902
America has Harriet for their underground aligned leader

>>88713698
>He doesn't just use darkness
They have literally no nightvision you fucking dingus

>>88714250
I quite like it, Dexterity stat seems much better than what we have right now. Also like the wounds system.
The head/body and dexterity table is my main concern, I think it can be simplified to not require a table if we use a larger die, like we currently have with a d10
I finally have a free day tomorrow to finish the doc, so we can have a clearer indication of what we need to finish for a barebones playtest
I'll add it in there

Anyone opposed to Ozymandias being crowned with glowing mushrooms?

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>>88715069
No, go ahead anon

>>88714631
It was a glowing cave map, I didn't have the luxury of running to the shadow

>>88710145
holy kino

>>88711531
i can't wait to schizo-analyze every story written out in these threads looking for signs of Gog and Magog

>>88714631
>some lazy smelly female negress unit that becomes immobile every second turn due to random apnea rule
>this is the only representation America gets as a character model

I hate the modern writers at this fucking company.

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Cromwell having undead/mutated melee soldiers would work right?

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Adna Romanza Chaffee, senior. Would be a major by the 1880s, son would be told and remember the stories of his father leading his forces in the underground. Said son would lead the american forces during the Boxer Rebellion and squash the near-equal but human horde tactic-enthusiastic forces of the Empress, eerily similar to the New Mu and Atlan military.

>>88715690
COME NEREVAR!

>>88713902
Ulysses Grant would be an obvious pick,

>>88715734
If you don't want an active pres leading the expedition, you could have him not run for his second term.

>>88715734
I feel like the Pres would be on the surface. The surface is never seen in lore or the game, so I'd go for something like a General instead as the primary US leader.

>>88709873
>>88714250
Main problem I see is, this being a smaller scale game, we don't want units to be TOO easy to kill/incapacitate. Also you'd have to track who has which wound. Maybe just have single Wounded status that leaves a unit bleeding and cuts AP until treated by Medic, with Stunned being a special affect from some types of attacks like explosives?

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updated

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Suggestion for Lemurians
Lemurian War Megatherium
>An armored Megatherium from Lemuria's forests, trained as a beast of war
>Strong claw attack, but no penetration?
>Medium Speed/Dex that would make sense for a war elephant type unit
>Can have a unit (i.e. archer) mount it like said war elephant
>Enters Frenzy at low Morale

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The forces below thought they had found the perfect emperor to corrupt.
Turns out, Ozymandias only let them in so he could conquer them too.

>>88716016
Looking at this, it may work for the Nameless Khan too. Fits well with Mother Unknown...

>>88716016
Very nice! I imagine the shroom mycelia extend straight into his Prophetic skull cavity. And is that a third eye with a dilated pupil?

>>88716044
>I imagine the shroom mycelia extend straight into his Prophetic skull cavity.
That's the thought, yes.
I'm envisioning his mind-cavity as something like a garden of Eden, with unknown lifeforms flowing out of it, as seen in the fungal growth..

>>88716008
>Can trample units

>>88716008
Unit anon here, sounds dope, I love prehistoric animals. If I may pose a suggestion, Lemuria has a rather steady-going lineup I feel like, perhaps warbeasts like this (I'd love to see a Paracathereum suggestion) could be utilized by the Neanderthals as mercenary monsters.

if you'd rather it stick with Lemuria though, all good chief.

>>88716114
>>88716114
I think with Lemuria's India theme it could be a cool twist on Indian war elephants, is all. But you could always just have megatherii with different loadouts available to multiple factions (like tartarodons).

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As much as having both hyper-fallen leaders look similar makes sens, I wanted to differentiate him from Mother Unknown more (both had shadowy skin)
Tested painting him up with ashes, I think its a lot more striking.

>>88716155
Yeah, this is even better.

>>88715734
i think sherman would work better. handling "all that agratha shit" is his punishment for burning down georgia. lee could also work well.
i also still think russia should have have entrance through lake baikal. as it stands they dont have much going for them. having control over the major water route would be something to set them apart. plus i think it would be funny for russia to be the navy guys.

>>88716176
Please do Vritravana, we need our anime dragon Vishnu boi.

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lmao let's post the right one this time

>>88716188
What's the details on him?
I missed some of the conversation with is development.

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>>88716209
>Vritravana, going by the jak and the overall themes, could look androgynous like the Hindu gods. Flowing, blonde/white anime hair, maybe some dragon/snake themed facepaint.
>Third Eye like the Perfect.
Also someone else mentioned him trying to turn into a dragon, so maybe scales? It's actually a cool nod to Blavatsky schizophrenia, since she described Lemurian mystics as "dragon-men" (though in a symbolic sense).

>>88716243
So, Shiva but blonde and mixed with a dragon.
Got it.

>>88716254
Yeah, sounds amazing.

>>88716258
I'll get to it when I get to it, then.

So, if we're going with Hexmap (we evidently are) then I think we should look into Battletech also.

One of my favourite aspects of that game is just how well the simple tabletop game translates a feeling of absolutely fucking brutal metal-smashing, explosive death. Its game feel is just so clear, with the shredding of layers, ammo explosions etc.

If we could pull off something like that, but for Armour and Flesh, I think we'd be in a great place.

>>88716192
you gotta do lee-dehr next.

>>88716438
I will consider it...

>>88716355
I was thinking yesterday for a more open map experience, perhaps a different mode, that you could have hit locations and angles just like BT. Maybe not the whole bubble wrap lifepoints thing but minor, major and grievous results based on hit location would be fun.

>>88716575
>Maybe not the whole bubble wrap lifepoints thing but minor, major and grievous results based on hit location would be fun.
Aye, bubble wrap is FIRMLY Battletech and I wouldn't want to straight rip them off. But, pulling the more visceral pieces out of BT in terms of how it calculates punching through armour could be interesting.

>major and grievous results based on hit location would be fun.
Implementing this into a wargame with large armies could be difficult due to tracking issues, but I still want something like it in.
We'll have to work on it.

>>88716181
LMAO Lee redemption arc. Could be a little too controversial though.

>>88716451
What would the modern gorgs even look like? The meme 1e art could be a good start.

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Speaking of that...

REJECT MODERNITY
EMBRACE GORG

>>88716599
>with large armies
But that wouldnt be done for large armies, I'm thinking a 5-15 on average.

>>88716599
>But, pulling the more visceral pieces out of BT in terms of how it calculates punching through armour could be interesting.
Was thinking
> attacker Roll to hit
> attacker Roll for hit location
> defender Roll for armor save (arm is location based)
> defender Roll for Toughness (or whatever is the equivalent stat). Result will determine if hit is minor major or critical.
>

>>88716836
>> attacker Roll to hit
>> attacker Roll for hit location
Roll this into one for simplicity's sake.
Success margin on Hit lets you choose from more different areas to hit perhaps?

>>88716873
This sounds good, actually.

>>88716873
Yeah, that would be good, especially on d12, which leaves a bit a space.

>>88716873
You could even merge it with wounds. So if your success/damage margin is enough to wound, you pick an area and the unit becomes Wounded with bleeding, AP loss and the appropriate debuff with all of it treatable by medic?

>>88716903
>>88716925
Screw it, let's focus this thread on specifically codifying how Hits, Damage etc. work.

GOALS
>Smooth gameplay
Keep dice rolls and math / table-referencing to a minimum.

>Visceral feel
Arranging the mechanics to have BattleTech "Bubble Wrap" feel in regards to when you hit something, the damage feels like it has impact. Shredding armour, brutal headshot moggings etc.

I feel like since we're dealing in the realm of Firearms and Flesh, tracking Health and damage to it isn't really needed. We could just have a simpler system of like, a checkbox for Grazed, one for Injured and another one for Dead. Perhaps each unit has a set number of boxes to check before it dies?

Pulling from FUDGE damage calcs, an example would be
(After you get through Armour of course)

ATLANTEAN AKRITAI

Scratches - [ ] [ ] [ ]
Wounds - [ ] [ ]

Where if you take a Scratch while you have all yours full, it 'upgrades' to a Wound. And if a hit gets 'upgraded' past your total hit capacity, the unit is slain.

As a lover of FUDGE and its derivatives, hit capacity is WAY easier to track than numerical Hit Poitns.

>>88716925
>Yeah, that would be good, especially on d12, which leaves a bit a space.
I am totally on board with using a d12 as the core dice of the game, also.

>>88716873
Should the defender get a roll too to counter the hit? Perhaps not always outright canceling a hit on a success but reducing the hit location choice of the attacker?
Or maybe that should be equipment-based?

>>88717042
Okay, lets say each stat is its own dice.

>AKRITAI

>Accuracy - (1d12+1)
To check for Hits, roll (1d12+1)

>Evasion - (2d4-1)
Your opposing roll against a Hit attempt If you roll higher than the enemy's attack roll.
Evasion could also be a static value to avoid excess rolling, possibly with abilities to add bonus dice to said static value if needed?

If you Hit, note the amount you succeeded by. Let's say, you roll 9, they get 4 for Evasion. Note 5.

>Penetration - (3)
If you Hit, add your success margin

>Armour - 2
If your result beats their Armour, you score a succesful Hit?

something along these lines. Just throwing out ideas.

>>88716990
>tracking Health and damage to it isn't really needed.
Not in the BT sense, no. That's why I thought you could track minor (or grazes, like that), major and grievous wounds. Have what the mean for a hit to the arm, leg, chest, groin and head means each.

>>88717152
>Not in the BT sense, no. That's why I thought you could track minor (or grazes, like that), major and grievous wounds.
I'm 100% on board with this. I don't run or play too many wargames, but I play a lot of tabletop RPGs and can say that FUDGE/FATE system of tracking damage by Scratch/Hurt/Graze checkboxes is

>Easier to track
>MUCH less abstract and more visceral (What the fuck is a Hit Point even? Meanwhile, everyone knows what taking a Wound is.)
>Faster to calculate ("I took a Wound? Okay, check that box." vs. "What is 117 - 38 again?"

I think we should lean more toward that direction.

WOUND TYPE SOLUTION:
Each time you take a Wound, you gain a debuff based on the location of Hit that caused it.
Movement speed penalty for hits to the Leg, Accuracy penalty to the arm, etc.

>>88716641
>lee redemption
he did that plenty IRL and still got punished despite being a overall better person then both sherman and Ulysses

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Example unit health pool, for what I'm proposing.

>Armour
Any type of damage, Graze, Wound, Critical (or whatever we call them) is first dealt to Armour. 1 of any damage type equals 1 point of Armour damage, no extra damage to Armour for heavier hit.

>Hardness
The value your roll must beat to bypass a units' Armour. If you beat it, the damage is instead dealt directly to Health.

>Health
Taking a Graze does nothing.
Gain some penalty if your unit has taken ANY Wounds (1 or more, no extra for more than 1. Penalty perhaps based on where the Wounds are located?)

Major penalties if you've taken any "Critical" wounds. (Though critical may be a bad name since that's also another term for special Hit successes.)

As you can see here, Atlan Immortals would have a very large Armour pool with high Hardness.
Its possible that we could also have some mechanic where some small arms literally can't damage certain Armour types at all, but that may be getting to complex.

>>88717273
You could actually merge Armour and Hardness. If your Armour is 6, you have 6 armor points and you lose them when incoming damage exceeds 6.

>>88717301
>You could actually merge Armour and Hardness. If your Armour is 6, you have 6 armor points and you lose them when incoming damage exceeds 6.
Not a bad idea, honestly.
But that also is a pretty big nerf to Armour overall, and SEVERELY balance options.

Like, the Titanium Crystal Mystic could have an armour value of 10 while only having a Hardness of 2. Negate ALL the small hits, but easy to punch through.
Meanwhile, some anti-bomb unit or something could have only two points of Armour but a hardness of 12, negating hits from everything but Anti-Material rifles but only a few times.

I like parsing them for balance and unit variety reasons, though combining them is an interesting thought. Maybe both (Current Hardness = Base + current Armour value?)

>>88717301
I meant, you lose health.

>>88717347
>(Current Hardness = Base + current Armour value?)
That can work, yeah.
So with 8 Armour like Immortal you'll need 8 to bypass, but if you whitle it down you can start punching through with lower damage.

>>88717379
>So with 8 Armour like Immortal you'll need 8 to bypass, but if you whitle it down you can start punching through with lower damage.
8 Armour + 6 Hardness means you'd need 14 to bypass, until its armor breaks down.
I don't know, seems janky and a bit complex. I think i still prefer just parsing Hardness from the amount of Armour to punch through.

>>88717396
Ah, sorry, I misread. But is it that complex though?
You start at 8, enemy needs 8+ to punch through. You take a couple of hits, armor negates them, you're now at 6. Suddenly 7 incoming damage and you get 1 Health damage. That would be a Graze, right? You do less calculations. As opposed to "So my base is 6 and now I have 6, so it's 12". I may be wrong or missing something, but that's how it looks.

>>88717469
>Ah, sorry, I misread. But is it that complex though?
No but every extra layer of barely-any-complexity pulls the game toward being unfun to play.

>>88717476
^

we have a big issue right now in that there's just too many ideas floating around for ways to expand combat/morale/etc. that isn't to say we have to get rid of everything but some fat has to be trimmed or else we're eating lard, not steak.

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nobody gives a horse's ass about armor, let's talk about if it's a proper functioning system.

>>88716181
>implying it’d be a punishment

>>88717503
I feel the simple Armour/Hardness is easy to understand, and the Wounds Taken tracking instead of Hit Points is simple enough to.

Everyone okay going forward with that?
Next would be to figure out how Damage works.

I mean, either works really, so if you think it'll work better with separate/parsed Hardness, go ahead.

>>88717532
>I mean, either works really, so if you think it'll work better with separate/parsed Hardness, go ahead.
True. And if both work functionally the same, going with the more simple-to-play option is always going to be better.

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https://strawpoll.com/polls/GPgV6RpeBga

Let's get a final number on what we think is an appropriate army size to have as an average. It'll make figuring out complexity much much simpler.

>>88717568
I think at least above 10.
Any smaller and your legendary Leader of an entire nation is basically just a dude running around with a handful of mooks.
Definitely agree with how you set up the poll that above 20 is getting a little big, at least for Skirmish gameplay.

Are we comfortable moving to wound checkboxes instead of tracking numerical Hit Points?

I am.

Okay so, how to calculate Damage then.

>What results cause what degree of injury?
is a good place to start.

>>88718028
i think it's fine but we should really tread with caution about how complex we make it. even something like having a small "card" for each fighter would get insanely tedious at 15+ models.

maybe we have two systems for damage, a basic one for small units like generic troops/workers/morlocks and then a more complex one for elite guys and leaders/heros?

>>88717568
I feel like platoon/patrol size battles would make sense here. It's remote territory with outposts and small redoubts being populated with guards. It's kinda like the Houthi rebels fighting Saud forces IRL.

>>88718121
>even something like having a small "card" for each fighter would get insanely tedious at 15+ models.
No worse than a Warhammer datasheet.

Proposal for armour:

Using a damage threshold system similar to the Fallout games, a certain level of armour negates all damage equal to the Armour/Damage threshold. All damage done will reduce that armour by a certain amount so it becomes easier to kill an armoured unit the more time goes on. E.g a unit with an armour of 10 is damaged for 12 points. It suffers 2 points of health damage, and the armour is now reduced to 9. If it is hit for 12 again it suffers a hit of 3 health points, the armour is reduced to 8, etc. I think this is a better system than having both hardness and complexity, and maybe certain types of damage deal more to the armour so you can have a trade-off between dealing health damage or armour damage, to help specialise units.

>>88718172
I mentioned earlier for a system like this, that not parsing the two values offers less potential unit variety.
The "Armour amount = hardness" means you either have high armour or not. There's no value for the quality of that armour, just the amount.

Can we at least call it Durability or something. "Hardness" has less class, but maybe it's my ESL showing.
As for damage, just random ideas, not necessarilly good.
We could go the same route as with armor, kinda, sorta, and have some sort of Endurance stat. Damage needs to exceed it to do Wounds, otherwise it's a Graze? Criticals would be either the result of Wound "overflow", certain special effects, damage types or plain and simple damage exceeding Endurance x 2.
Otherwise, just consider the average kind of damage range the game will have and divide it in tiers, each corresponding to Grazes, Wounds and Criticals.

>>88718334
>Can we at least call it Durability or something. "Hardness" has less class, but maybe it's my ESL showing.
Yeah sure. Names are all tentative for now, just hashing out mechanics.

We should also consider using Units like the titan that is Warhammer. It does make tracking unit damage easier, because you simply remove a single model from a unit when their wound threshold is reached instead of having to track damage on every individual model.

>>88718422
using units is anti-skirmish imo, this isn't that big of a wargame. MAYBE we could have basic guys in groups of like three but that's as far as i'd be willing to go.

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Unit anon here, cheers to whoever typed up this ecology tidbit halfway, pretty neat stuff!

>>88718442
Sounds good. Thought I'd mention it anyway, so the idea is out there. It can be a solution down the line if we find combat does end up too complex to track with the systems we develop.

>>88718028
Yes.
Personally I like it because it reminds me of WoD, which I ST'd for years.

>>88718121
It's pretty standard for anyone having played Warmachine/Hordes or Necromunda.
But I do think we should aim at making small groups of even 3-5 models viable, if skewed.

>>88718259
>The "Armour amount = hardness" means you either have high armour or not. There's no value for the quality of that armour, just the amount.
I don't have an opinion one way or another but variations could be based on equipment or materials, says the special rule for Titanium Armour is that it adds +4 to Durability .

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>last thing you see when Vritravana uses his Death Prophecy on you

>>88718895
>I don't have an opinion one way or another but variations could be based on equipment or materials, says the special rule for Titanium Armour is that it adds +4 to Durability .
I'd prefer to keep things to core mechanics wherever possible for reasons of elegance.

That is, the more you relegate to abilities, the more bloated stat sheets become.

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>>88718896
>Marine, bring out the Gorg-Flattening Machine

>>88718442
Why not squads?

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I was thinking about simplifying things a bit.
Let say each model had a "location grid"
lets say the default is 1 for the head, 2 for the arms, 4 for the core body and 2 for each legs.
Each location has its own Armor value based on selected equipment.
Roll to hits give you the location.
Armor gives you a save. If you succeed maybe you reduce the save.
If you fail the save you take a number of Wounds based on the weapon. For each would defender rolls to check the type of wound.
Graze is a "/", Wound is a 'x', Critical is a blacked out square. Grazes stack into Wounds and Wounds into Criticals.
Locations could have a default status once you fill them with one type. For example.
> Arm
> Grazed : -2 to Hit with a Weapon or to Save with a Shield
> Wounded : You must test [whatever] before making an attack or attempting to save with this arm.
> Critical : You cannot make attacks with a weapon or block with a shield equipped with this arm.
and then some conditions upon which the model dies immediately.
Added hilarity bonus as we get to recreate our favourite scene from Monty Python

>>88719058
>Graze is a "/", Wound is a 'x', Critical is a blacked out square.
That's a very solid manner of tracking things actually. Worth investigating.

>>88719058
>>88719128
An alternative would just be to track Wounds as a single thing, then just add a tag from each Hit to signify what wound was taken.

Say, your wound box is [ ] and you fill it with an X for a Major Wound.
Then, sketch a line on the bottom of the box for a Leg wound, side for an Arm wound, top for a Head wound or something.

>>88719058
i love the grazed > wounded > crit'd boxes idea but imo locational damage is too much for anything that isn't a vehicle or mega monster

looking at the survey it seems majority opinion is that each side should have 10-20 models on average and even on the lower end of that spectrum i can't imagine it not being tedious noting and remembering every little aspect of it.

>>88719058
IMO, Grazes shouldn't affect anything, it's too cumbersome. Only Wounds and Criticals should have effects.

>>88719265
>IMO, Grazes shouldn't affect anything
Agreed. Grazes / Minor Injuries / whatever we call them should be the "Free" damage.
Then, again, if you take a Graze while you're full up on Graze boxes, it gets "Upgraded" to a Wound or whatever.

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reminder
Atlantean blood is blue
and it is THE DUTY OF EVERY ATLAN CITIZEN TO SHED EVERY DROP OF IT!

>>88708802
>Prophecy aura that let's any unit ignore/reroll Perils once per battle?
That sounds more like an Ozymandias thing to me. "You get a free Prophecy! And you get a free Prophecy! Everyone gets a free Prophecy!" Death Prophecy is strong as it is, maybe Dragon Boy could just have 1 extra free Prophecy for himself and some kind of stat buff aura.

>>88719265
That's fine too.
Bump the - 2 to wounded and the no use to critical, works too.

>>88719058
>hoards of morlocks grazing you to death in a giant dog-pile

is there a worse fate?

>>88719325
I'm sure Hyperborea is working on finding one.

>>88718442
This has been brought up before and the thing to keep in mind is the Morlocks.
Basically Morlock Armies have conceptually shaped up to be swarm forces that either overwhelm their opponents or sacrifice their own units for buffs on account of being able to actively summon a shit ton of Morlocks while also technically breaking unit caps via the potential for Morlock units to break morale and go wild, becoming neutral and freeing up space for more Morlocks to be brought into play.

That theming doesn't really work unless one can field a considerable amount of Morlocks in comparison to the other armies and I think is the metric to keep in mind for what is upwardly acceptable in terms of models. Tail-Fin is one of the faction leaders for Khan's Sake.

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Alright then!
New, EXTREMELY simple health tracking system.
Obviously, this would be a VERY tanky unit. I'm imagining the average unit having like 1, 2 or 3 "Health" but this is just for visualising things puproses.

Empty square = unharmed
One slash = Minor Mound (No penalties)
X marked square = Major Wound (-2 to Accuracy or some shit whatever if you have one OR MORE major wounds. No stacking penalty for more than one.)
Filled in square = Critical/Grievous/Serious wound. (Some major penalty applies.)

OTHER PROPOSAL
body part injuries.
>Mark to the left of the Wounds box = Arm injury
>Mark below = Leg injury

All body part injury debuffs apply if you break the Major / Grievous wound threshold (Having one or more of each) but do NOT stack.
That is

LEG INJURY
>Have one or more Major wounds? -1 Movement speed.
>Have one or more Grievous wounds? Movement speed capped at 1, ignoring all speed buffs etc.

Just proposals to get things started. Seems actually very easy and paper-compact to track.

Honestly, locational damage over sounds like a bitch to track. I don't play a lot of wargames, does this actually work well in them?
You could just have a very simple system, where the moment you go into your Wound count, you get, say, -1 to attack and move per Wound with a cap of, say, 2, then in your Criticals you start losing AP (current rule say all units have 2). If you have more than 2 Critical slots, you're still be alive, but immobilized.

>>88719358
i've always thought morlocks should just have the ultimate KISS rules. with that being said every compromise i mentally make to have them work better (like letting them attacking through other morlock models) ultimately just makes them act more like a unit so i yield here.

i still think that we should keep it at a size of three for normal troops/workers though.

>>88719380
>Honestly, locational damage over sounds like a bitch to track.
Yes it really does.
I think it may be something we end up discarding, but I'm more than happy to explore the idea. I'm sure we can find elegant ways to track it.

>>88719382
Three as the average cap it reasonable to me.

>>88719365
this is good but i still think locational damage will bite us in the ass. it's other thing in the attacking phase to point out/remember/write down/look up the debuffs for, and when you have to do that 15 times over it's gonna completely kill the momentum of the game.

if we're going to use it, i suggest we only keep on big units. thinks like the rockbreakers or heroes. give it a keyword like "elite" and we're golden.

>>88719382
>>88719395
How about this

>Regular models come in a Unit
>Each Unit consists of up to N copies of a single model type, and up to one faction Hero model that provides buffs to that unit.

>Your overall Army can have a single Leader model.

Damage tracking is fine. You just have the loss of a single Model every time Unit takes enough wounds to kill one, then reset its Wound tracker to 0 / roll over excess damage to the next pool.

>>88719404
>if we're going to use it, i suggest we only keep on big units
Track wound locations only for Hero and Leader units?
I'm happy to consider that. Best of both worlds, kind of.

>>88719409
better to make Hero units Officer units ngl

>>88719425
Yes for sure. That sounds like a good place for them to be.

>>88719424
i think we could use it on some other units. i think slowly bringing down a cloudelliphant and having it perform worse over time would work well and also make it so elite units don't suddenly go from 100 to 0 when Randy does the 60th graze to it.

>inb4 PROOOOOOOOOOOOT posting

>>88719380
>does this actually work well in them?
Imho sure, much better than a single track.

>>88719404
>and when you have to do that 15 times over it's gonna completely kill the momentum of the game.
You usually dont attack with every single model every single turn.

But for regular units it'll be just -2 attack, -1 move when at least one Wound, -1 AP, -1 move if at least one Crit or some shit?

>>88719467
Sounds reasonable.
Just enough to have in-game feedback to having your arm blown off by a Lemurian camel cannon.

bumping the thread

>>88718334
So which do you guys think would be better? I was thinking that maybe using the same logic for Health as Armour would bloat the system a bit, so maybe simple damage tiers are the way to go. Though if average Endurance is on the lower side, Health would still go down fast enough.

>>88719654
I think the majority of the 20 or so people who are consistently discussing this project are in a US or EU timezone.
In other words o7

>>88719673
o7 night, brother
Ozymandias bless.

>>88719409
If we do thi models representing gooks need to have low health, 2-3 boxes for gooks, otherwise you are going to end up having leader type units more vulnerable than your average mook (if we go with headshots killing characters outright, which coul work for assassins, mind you).

>>88719719
I'd say 1 to 3 boxes for basic regulars, averaging 1 or 2 maybe. Explicitly tanky units get 3.
We'll figure it out, but good to know we're getting closer to a solid damage/health etc. design.

Still thinking of translating this into unit-based combat, each made of up many Models.

It wouldn't be too difficult. Say, take the currently proposed Wounds model, and simply make it so
>Any damage taken past a Grievous Wound means one of your Models is slain.

That is, 3 Health filled with three G.Wounds? A Scratch kills one member of the unit.
The same but with 2 G.Wounds and one Major wound? Only a G. Wound would slay one, otherwise a Major Wound or Scratch would upgrade that last wound slot to Grievous.

The debuffs, to movement at least, could apply across the entire Unit. The Unit must stay cohesive, so of course they're moving as slow as their slowest, most injured member.

>>88719796
>The Unit must stay cohesive, so of course they're moving as slow as their slowest, most injured member.
Given the nature of the setting, we absolutely need an option to mercy-kill or just abandon wounded troops in order to get your movement speed back, probably at a severe morale penalty. Unless you're playing as Hyperboreans, of course.

>>88719819
>Given the nature of the setting, we absolutely need an option to mercy-kill or just abandon wounded troops in order to get your movement speed back, probably at a severe morale penalty. Unless you're playing as Hyperboreans, of course.
Easy. You can "Kill" a single member of your Unit to heal 1 of the me most severe types of Wounds you have.
Call it "Culling" or something.

>>88719835
Hyperboreans should be able to peel the skin off their wounded soldiers for a buff.

>>88719848
Honestly, a gimmick that allows them to intentionally cause themselves Scratches for buffs sounds exactly right for them.

>>88719855
We have such sights to show you!

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Okay so maybe not the cleanest way to explain it, but tried to make something explaining my thoughts on how we could have it be a proper wargame with good sized armies organised into units, using the system people seem to be settling on and refining right now.

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Anyone remember this illustration from the rulebook in 4e? Why didn't they take this idea further?

>>88719906
Notably this does NOT include however the fuck we end up implementing Armour.

>>88719915
too busy folding grorious Satsuma Steel for 5e.

>>88719915
this was always meant to be kitbash potential, i don't know why you retards act like you need 1 to 1 official models to make something these days. none of you burnt-out zoomies remember that three year period where the only legal way to play the skywayman was to kitbash him since he didn't have a fucking model.

>>88719925
Absolutely incredible that a post about a fake game can make me, in the real world, mad. 10/10.

>>88719935
It wasn't that, there was just no real lore for it, even though they gave us a whole story about Atlan and the Yucatan.

>>88719906
solid, i really like this. only thing is that i don't think an elite unit like immortals should ever near 6 models; arguably i think they should be ran solo, and the only things hitting 6 would be like morlocks (though they would go higher)

>>88719955
Well, they are supposed to synergize with His Radiance, so they should at least be run in pairs or threes

>>88719937
these threads are essentially an experiment in how creatively and emotionally invested i can get into something that has a 5% chance of ever being real in the sense of being playable, let alone actual miniatures.

>>88719955
>solid, i really like this. only thing is that i don't think an elite unit like immortals should ever near 6 models;
Fair. Just an example to get things more solidified.

>and the only things hitting 6 would be like morlocks (though they would go higher)
Typical wargames would have Units of around 3-20. Morlocks would probably hit the 8-20 range honestly, if we do lean toward the unit-based combat (Considering this was originally supposed to be a wargame).

>>88719961
>>88719966
that is true, but this is a skirmish game, not a wargame. units should be small because that's essentially the core difference between the two.

ofc there will be exceptions like morlocks but for basic British/French/American (who seem to be our "average" armies) the most basic guys coming in trios fits best. poll showed that unit model count people liked the most was the 10-20 range so having like three units of three guys and then a bunch of single model units really isn't that big of a leap.

>>88719997
I honestly feel like limiting it to a Skirmish game doesn't to the fucking ridiculous nature of setting justice.
I want BLOOD. CARNAGE. SLAUGHTER. Things only achievable with 80 model armies on a titanic battlefield!

That said, it wouldn't be hard to just have more small units or have some system for combining units for larger battlefield games. So its not a big deal.

>>88719915
They sat Anonski down and told him to please stop adding new factions.

>>88719906
Please don't take this the worng way, but why do we need to do this, again? The whole multimodel unit thing, I mean.

>>88720050
A lot of people here have never looked at a Skirmish game and it shows.

>>88720050
Because its a wargame and tracking each unit individually is literal hell and will yield shit gameplay.

>>88720063
The original thread is about a WARGAME, not a Skirmish game.
this has always been about developing a Wargame, where is the confusion here?

>>88720074
from the first thread:

Theme:
> Jules Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth meets Made in Abyss and 19th century American Gold Rushes
> Skirmish campaign-based ruleset

>>88720064
It won't if we commit to small-scale and don't add bells and whistles like 100 kinds of wounds though? It's like we're treating symptoms without treating the disease, except it's not even the right disease.

>>88720078
From the first thread.
>Let's do one for a fictional wargame instead.

As far as I am aware, the goal is to construct a wargame, but the scope was limited to smaller skirmishes for the purpose of developing a playable, manageable vertical slice to begin testing before larger encounters are dealt with.

NOT to build a tiny-scale game with only 3 or 4 units per side on the entire board at once.

>>88720064
Or... We can just make things simple, and only use more complex rules for more powerful models who take up enough space in-game to warrant more focus?

>>88720087
from this very thread topic
>It is a Skirmish exploration wargame.

>>88719915
Too many husked unit in this fucking game already.

>>88719997
>British/French/American (who seem to be our "average" armies)
Taking look at the docs and chart, it sound like from size, american are the average size guy, British have average army troop but can spam auxiliaries and French are low-number elite.

Guys, for now let's just do a very basic and simple skirmish ruleset so we have a foundation for this thing. I want to see a proper wargame with Morlock Hordes overrunning the Franco-British gunline too, but building something of that scale from scratch is a tall order for anyone.

>>88720137
>Guys, for now let's just do a very basic and simple skirmish ruleset so we have a foundation for this thing. I want to see a proper wargame with Morlock Hordes overrunning the Franco-British gunline too, but building something of that scale from scratch is a tall order for anyone.
One or the other, mate. Spending development time on a system that won't be the actual product isn't a sensible use of effort.

If you want to see the wargame, just make the wargame.

>>88720142
for now let's shelve this debate until the main posters wake back up and OP can over this more.

>>88720137
I honestly agree. This was a bit of the problem with Leviathan, it just kept getting bigger and bigger but we never actually had anything finalized.

Let's get a final draft out there, and then when that's done we can focus on "expansions".

As far as I know, every doc, thread, pretty much everything conncected to this specified it as a skirmish small-scale exploration kind of game. And the very reason we even went with FUDGE/ST wound rules (beyond them just being good I guess) was for easier tracking, so we are pretty much doing everything we can to optimize this already. I also will echo the sentiment that starting with small scale is the right thing to do, as at the moment we're just a bunch of autists with some memejak charts and a dream.

>>88720150
>>88720155
My point being that its going to be the same or similar amounts of development effort to complete either, we should be focusing on developing what will be the best version of what we want.

Its not merely an issue of adding expansions to a skirmish ruleset. Its a matter of if you do one, the other ceases to be reasonable to complete,. as you're effectively doubling your effort by splitting your design focus between "The easy thing we don't want now" and "The hard thing we do want later" instead of focusing on making a clean, vertical slice of what actually evokes excitement.

I guess I would ask,
Do you WANT this to be a small-scale skirmish game? Or would you prefer it to end up an actual wargame?

Setting aside concerns of development time, what would your preferred end result of that development time look like?

>>88720190
I want to have my cake and eat it too. I think the setting has potential and we can have a simple skirmish game, a grand campaign, an rpg, and an epic 40k equivalent if we go for it. As long as we pick one and make it fun, allowing us to play and refine it, then I'm sure it's just a small matter of keeping people's interest and attracting new contributors to help out, or finishing one and moving onto the other.

>>88720210
that's the issue though: it isn't a small matter. so if you had to pick, which would it be?

>>88720190
I didn't gave a opinion on the debate before because I'm a fencesitter who would like something Legion-sized, so with units but few of them.

>>88720210
>As long as we pick one and make it fun, allowing us to play and refine it, then I'm sure it's just a small matter of keeping people's interest and attracting new contributors to help out, or finishing one and moving onto the other.
My vote is for the wargame for now, but I'll happily shift my efforts to whatever we settle on.

The wargame just feels right. The setting ended up way to grand to settle for just a skirmish ruleset imo.
The development effort for one or the other isn't significantly more or less either way, honestly. The worst disparity is that a wargame will generally take longer to playtest from start to finish through setup and victory, per game. That's about it. The actual development between statting out a single model vs statting out a unit of six models is literally negligible.

>>88717568
>10 to 15 is an optimal number, it allows for more complexity than lets say 40k Kill Teams but still keeps things easy enough to track/control
>>88719906
multi-model units kind of kill the point of the gameplay flow, especially if it's on a hex grid, imagine that the entire unit has to occupy 6 separate hexes, but then let's say only 1 dude is behind cover, how do you plan to count that? Is the entire unit behind cover, or just this one guy? That's why most hexgrid based games have individual units.

>>88720262
>That's why most hexgrid based games have individual units.
Nothing stopping us from ditching the hexgrid, mind you.
Things are still in the ideation phase.

>>88720190
I'm OP from the first thread. I don't know when anons decided to push for a swap from skirmish to a full-scale wargame, but in all previous threads everyone kinda agreed on having this be a game about leading a small expedition into a new world, Jules Verne adventure novel style.
I know the lore is very grand-scale, but a wargame-scale game with armies doesn't really fit the original premise of the thread.
Plus we already have some barebones rules for a skirmish ruleset.
I'm gonna post a revised doc with stuff from previous threads this evening to make this whole thing easier

It feels like this is another "let's move the setting to 1900s" situation

>>88720190
Yes. It was pretty much conceived as about expeditions of up to 20 or so units, as much about exploration, digging and running logistics as actual battles, and many clearly went into it with this premise.

>>88720229
A full scale wargame feels like a feature creep trap at this point, too big of a scale to accomplish in a realistic timeframe, far too many things to consider
Skirmish games allow the rules to remain simple but at the same time allow for flexibility and creativity when inventing new units/game modes/missions

>>88720284
ty for your troubles OP. i've been here since the first thread and i've never been confused about the premise so i don't know why all of a sudden there's talk of it being a huge wargame. even the idea of multi-model units sours my taste on it.

>>88720284
in my imagination an ideal breakdown of an average surface faction expedition would look something like this:
>5-10 grunts, these are the people that let your expedition move forward, these are your workers, geodesists, surveyors, scouts or other civilian roles whatever you name them, they're usually not very proficient with weapons but can still soak up hit points during the battle or build defences, if you happen to lose them they could be easily replenished at an outpost/colony, especially on the higher Layers where the Surfacers presence is rather large
>5+ soldiers, these are the guys you rely on the most during the battle, you usually don't want to lose them as they're not as easy to replenish
>your leader + specialist units/special units, these are the guys you take to make your expedition feel unique and probably determine your playstyle other than your Faction, these are your officers, chief engineers, medics etc. that artillery piece dragged by horses you brought from the surface just for it to misfire, hit the ceiling and burry 4 of your best guys under the rubble? it's also found here.

I'm not sure what the Underworld expedition would look like though, maybe more focus warfare stuff but weaker overall units compared to the Surfacers, although as far as I understand the lore factions like Atlanteans also organise their own expeditions

>>88720596
this is always how i imagined it. handful of workers, some soldiers, a leader or two. i like the idea of purely civilian units like a geologist though, gives me ideas towards missions like "capture the civilian"

The games that came in my mind when I've originally seen the threads were actually video games from the Expedition series, specifically Conquistador.

>>88720596
Not sure how I would feel about Atlan, an elite army from the look of it, fielding three soldiers on the entire battlefield.

Writing the rules down and apparently we've never decided on the turn order
So I propose we "borrow" This Is not a Test's way of handling it
> Start of turn
Each leader Rolls a 1d10 and adds their Leadership stat (I'm thinking of having it be a keyword specifically for leader units)
The one with the higher result gets to activate his units first
> Activation
Pick a unit
Roll 2d10 under your Dexterity(Formerly known as Speed in the Docs)+Will
If you succeed - gain 2 Action Points, do your actions and you may Activate another unit
If you don't - gain 1 Action Point, do your action and your opponent now Activates his unit
This is continued until all units have been activated
> Turn end
End of turn effects, etc.

A 2d10 roll with a 5/5 in Dexterity and Will gives you a 45% chance of another activation
Plus we can have rules for degrading Will as units start to Panic

>On topic of Panic:
Considering most of the time there isn't an inner sun on the battle map, we can have continuously harder Will checks if a unit can't see any light + Semi-random movement
For a refresher, each unit carries a light source that gives him a light radius of N hexes

>>88720596
I feel like underworlders are not as numerous as the colonials, but they're more adapted to fighting underground.

>>88720596
I think if something IS better handled by being reduced to abstractions like "this unit is actually five guys" or as a line of text in your sheet it's the completely civilian grunts actually.

>>88720731
>Not sure how I would feel about Atlan, an elite army from the look of it, fielding three soldiers on the entire battlefield.
yeah see that's my problem
its comical, and not in a good way, for the legendary Titanium King to appear on a war-torn battlefield with his legendary, unstoppable army of... three dudes.

The scope of literally everything to do with the game and lore has gone FAR beyond a simple skirmish ruleset.

Yeah, lmao, let's not swing this shit straight to the other extreme. 5 soldiers? To make room for workers and geodesists?

>>88720836
Oh of course not, but I think we're well past the point where keeping it out of the actual wargame realm is more silly and self-defeating than it is reasonable.

No, what I'm saying is a small-scale skirmish game is still a small-scale SKIRMISH game, not 3 dudes guarding some miners and a nerd game. Workers, cooks and various camp followers can be abstracted and still be an important part of gameplay.

>>88720869
how about something closer to this for the numbers in combat:

5 workers, 10 soldiers, a Leader, and then various "Camp" miniatures which can be taken prisoner/wounded by miniatures for non-combat value

>>88721056
What does having several worker minis achieve specifically? Like, I see what having separate minis for your 5 Akritai in a battle does. What do 5 workers do? Surround a rock for extra Excavation damage? Can't you just place your one worker mini, representing all your workers where you need them on a map and, well, dig/build/whatever?

>>88721100
Dig in two place at the same time ?

>>88721100
so far we've had workers envisioned as playing more roles than just digging: specialized ones to set up fortifications, having usage as sacrifices/undead, etc. having just one not only limits the depth a player can put into their mid-combat tunnels but also heavily downplays the rules we've workshopped to interact with them.

>>88721111
Technically, yes, but practically, for what purpose? To see more of the map/create alternate routes beforehand? Please do understand that I'm not being mean-spirited, I'm just a little confused.
>>88721122
So what you're saying is that you need to track their numbers and positions for the purpose of stuff like building and repairing fortifications and digging in time/space sensitive situations, i.e. during combat? Like building a bridge/tunneling to make an escape route, for example. Yeah, that makes more sense.

>>88721100
I always though of workers as cheap, replacable generalists. They can dig, fight, move objectives well enough, etc. An all-combat expedition will dominate in a straight fight, but the goal isn't to slaughter every enemy - it is to complete your expedition objectives.
Whenever we get around to fleshing out the campaign hexcrawl they will become much more important.

>>88708594
So, what really happened to the Low Countries? I know their units are part of the French roster, but aside from Leopold, we haven’t heard much of them.

>>88721304
I imagine, with their countries having collapsed in their entirety, unlike France, the survivors just integrated into the French society.

>>88721304
Personnaly I'm all for making the section that fall a bit smaller, mostly Parisian region with a chunk of northen France, part of Belgium, part of Normandy and Brittany and that's it. Rest was warped by the layer contraction that dragged Doggerland out of the north sea.
I liked the bit on France and Britain having small skirmish there despite the peace.

But yeah I guess Belgian either threw their lot with Leopold or integrated with France for protection. Maybe the division is along the Wallon-Flammand line lmao.

>>88721324
That makes sense. Given that Leopold’s still kicking, my guess is that Belgium and the Netherlands both exist, but are essentially French protectorates in order to stay alive. If we’re going with that crater size, that is.
>>88721373
Honestly, I’d be fine with this as well. Having the Netherlands claim the whole of “reclaimed” Doggerland would be hilarious, so I’d say keep them alive just for that.
As for Belgium, I’m not sure what would happen to them here, either.

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>>88721373
So, something like this? Don't mind Germany, I'm brainstorming.

Or is Doggerland, like, literally between England, France and Netherlands now? I thought it just kina "replaced" what fell.

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>>88721537
Yeah that would be fine by me. Nice chunk of land but still reasonable enough to have the Lowland survive. I liked the idea of Orleans being in the spot Paris used to be and being where the Eiffel tower junction end up.

>>88721551
No you got it right, the idea is that the "upper crust" acting kinda like falling tissue and was "dragged" toward the hole before it closed up in the layer contraction.
It sound deliciously insane.

Luxembourg is very likely kaput and French too.

What if this area sunk to sink not Paris, but Belgium, the impossible country that should have never existed? The nature's way of fixing humanity's mistakes.

>>88721537
Damn, I only just realized how well Austria is doing. Also, we shld develop how Doggerland looks.

>>88721611
Austria stuff is still not ratified, but I'm a strong proponent of Austrian supremacy for schizo vibes.

>>88721576
But it WOULD change the coastlines, right?

>>88721611
Since I'm the guy who started throwing the idea around
I thinked about big monolithic ruins of unknown origins, fossilised forest, remnant of sea life and some deep pits, some of them leading to the third layer (the reason France and britain have some skirmish there).
The region is mostly plain and hills, with grass being the most common plant life (it has been years since it was dragged out of the sea, so plant life is starting to retake it's place) but also weird form of sea life that survived and adapted to the change like corral. For some reason the grass grow very green there, like in Ireland.

>>88721676
Mostly along the north sea yeah I guess. Maybe there is some kind of great bay in northen France now. Bruge is now trully the Venice of the north and Dunkerke face the bay.

>>88721701
Perhaps Doggerland could have been transplanted to cover Fallen France, the environment as you described, and a rift has opened in the English Channel that leads to the third layer? The rift opened by Doggerland dragging itself to cover the Fallen France hole. The English Channel is preserved by a fortified canal so shipping can still get to London.

>>88721770
I have kind of a hard time seeing what you mean by a fortified cannal allowing shipping to London. Is there still water in the English Channel ?

>>88721798
I think he means that England made something similar to the Kiel canal to keep London alive. If the channel is gone, then they just lost their biggest natural advantage, so the British army will probably have to be expanded to defend themselves from others.

Eh, wait, I don't get it, do we want MORE water or LESS water? Logically, it would be the former.

The latter, I mean.

Here is my assorted list of grievances so far.
Three Sicilies: nothing about them makes sense. Two Sicilies had that name because the control over the throne was disputed (both Naples and Sicily proper claimed the title). It makes no sense to call northern Italy "Sicily". I propose we rename this faction to United Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and the Judicates, since theoretically only Sardinia was a proper kingdom (the Judicates were regions Sardinia used to be divided into). It also makes no sense that the feeble, bored, petty nobility kicked up a pagan fuss unless the king was also somehow ousted, considering how reactionary and pro-Catholic the Sicilian Bourbons were.

Danube Empire: absolutely nonsensical in its current implementation and it reeks of le epic Victoria II Grossdeutschland Germanium. Only way we get out of this conundrum without looking like edgelords is by reinforcing that the Habsburg wrestled control of the german states from Prussia successfully. This opens some venues for a North German Federation acting as a potential buffer between the scandinavians (which up until this point are basically ghosts), the Russians (which are nonexistent in the conversation so far) and the French (who are all over the place and even in the Lowlands, which would technically also be pretty close to a theoretical NGF). The Austrians, on the other hand, would probably much rather prefer to restore continuity with the briefly defunct HRE, I suspect. It also opens up some lore speculation of how the treatment of Hungarian changes now that they are no longer useful to keep Slavs, Romanians and Italians in the empire in check.

>>88722038
The UK should - may Allah forgive me for uttering these words - most likely be very similar to what the Imperium is in 40k, or basically, the largest, strongest and most organized of the surface factions. Almost no power could come toe to toe with them in OTL, so if they somehow get access to magical underground bullshit it would stand to reason that they would be even stronger. On the other hand, more focus underground might mean that the Russians, which by right should be the second greatest power, have had some luck in the Great Game, perhaps taking Afghanistan or even parts of India. China should be a hotly contested territory, and since somehow we decided Japan should be a major faction, conflict overground should probably also gravitate around how these three powers make and break alliances to get a chunk of the pie.

Speaking of which, Prussia/NGF would be in a good spot to negotiate an alliance both with England and with France (historical ties with both, but in either case with a distinct anti-Austrian objective. The fact that the Ottoman empire has all but collapsed or reverted to a necropolis should mean that the Russians see this as their opportunity to step into the Balkans - something that is bound to put them in a collision course with France.

>>88722038
I always thought the Third Sicily was underground lmao. But I do agree on Francesco II, the guy was NOTHING like the Meme Volcano Tyrant we know and love. I suppose if something would change a man it WOULD be meme Volcano Gods, but I'd rather we have some kind of usurper responsible for making the deal with the Volcano entity take control over Italy.

>>88721537
I don't think Greece is allied with the unhusked Ottomans. Given the existence of the Ambitious Evzone, I'm pretty sure they're taking this opportunity to purge as many Ottoman elements from their region as possible.

>>88722038
>>88722099
I always assumed the Danubian Empire is the product of Habsburgs successfully dominating over Prussia by gaining access to the Underworld way before them and using its resources and the artefacts found there.
Henceforth the technology and loot hoarding nature of it since it allowed them to defeat their rivals and later stop the Husk horde in the south.
It's not like Austria never had colonial ambitions in its XIX century history, just the limited access to the sea and its domestic issues never allowed them to flourish in the age of Imperialism.
With the Underworld wide open for them it allowed the Habsburg monarchy flourish once more.

>>88722231
>François Ist tomb start spinning

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Anyway, here's the meme Doggerland version with it partially emerging and changing the coast.
As for Austria, well I personally think the latest version is the best. Prussia still exists, but is a shadow of it's former self, GF is a buffer state under Danubian influence. It's heavily decentralized, Austria is still technically in it too, like it was until the Austro-Prussian War. I agree on the Hungarian situation, actually. I was thinking of Hapsburgs reneging on any compromises they've made and cutting up Hungary to create Hapsburg controlled territories like like Illyria (IIRC it was actually considered), Siebenburgen, and, dare I say it, Slovakia? Which would result in a Second Hunagrian Revolution that would be crushed not just by the Austrians but by the onslaught of Husks, with them having to beg their own opressors to save them not long after rebelling.
Timeline-wise it would go something like this:
>Future Tyrant of Naples somehow discovers the Stromboli entrance and how to operate, uses this knowledge to seize power in Italy.
>Strikes a deal with Austria to let them use it
>They use Agartha hax to defeat Prussia
>Revolt of the Faithful happens
>Pope asks Austria for help, but they aren't willing to saw off the branch they're sitting on
>Pope escapes to Spain
We can also write in GIC/CEISC in there somewhere along the lines.

>>88722140
Volcano Tyrant is fine if somehow the nobles overcome the king and set up some form of Polish anarchy, with different petty lords vying for power and the winner becoming a primus inter pares.

>>88722231
Which is perfectly fine, but what I am challenging here is the name. It would make much more sense for the newly reinvigorated habsburg to call their domain the Second Holy Roman Empire. Or Third even, if we count Charlemagne's as the first.

>>88722099
It's not like the UK dosn't have it's share of problems either, considering the Lemurian are playing litteral mindgames in their colonies and the Americans are going imperialist.

As for the Russian well let's not kid ourselves, the problem with later 19th century Russia wasn't the lack of land, but with those lands being Russian. The only reason they could get away with calling someone the sick man of Europe is because they are barely European themselves.

>>88722334
Re: the UK, I agree. I just think it should somehow be evident in the lore that they still are top dog to some degree.

Russia not being stellar is fine, but it's besides the point. Russia vied for control of Asia with the UK, the fact that they might have been partially more successful should be reflected somehow in the status quo.

>>88722307
This is good stuff, I would just give NGF/Prussia a bit more of land on the north sea, while I think the German federation should basically be integrated into habsburg/imperial domains.

>>88722307
I was thinking of the space between France and britain to be a bit larger still, but geographicly wise, this could work for me. Should Netherlands claim the Doggerland title considering large part of it are now uuuh Not-Fallen France (as it filled the northen part of the hole) ?

I mean, I suppose Second Holy Roman Empire aligned with literal Volcano Pagans and possibly even setting up an anti-Pope would be a meme in its own right, and not even a very ahistorical one, but something about it rubs me the wrong way.

>>88722378
this is your friendly and completely free reminder that the French Kings called themselves Rex Catholicissimus despite doing everything in their power to help the Protestants in the 30YW and then having a long standing alliance with the Turks.

>>88722358
>Re: the UK, I agree. I just think it should somehow be evident in the lore that they still are top dog to some degree.
Oh yeah I agree, it's just that obviously there is a lot of big powers moving very fast in continental europe (and they probably hate this considering continental europe hegemony is the british worst fear). Probably one of the reason they are so determined colonizing the depth: they want to colonies who aren't undermined by Lemurian, attack Lemurian to stop them from fucking with their empire and prevent the other powers from catching up with them.

>>88722398
>Richelieu 45D dimension move helping the Protestant Sweedish build a fleet and rollstomp Hasbourg catholics only for the king to bite it in a semi-retarded way just after that
SCHEMES !
Also, helping Protestant *outside their kingdoms* while brutally repressing protestantism on the inside.

>>88722358
>I would just give NGF/Prussia a bit more of land on the north sea
Like Hannover? Would they be in a position to claim it after defeat?
>>88722368
>Should Netherlands claim the Doggerland title considering large part of it are now uuuh Not-Fallen France (as it filled the northen part of the hole) ?
It's a meme, but the Doggerland territory they do have is rougly the same size as old Netherlands. I think it's well within their rights lol.

>>88722447
>Like Hannover? Would they be in a position to claim it after defeat?
Honestly a very good question. I think we could try to think of a reason to make that happen, if nothing else to have another middle-sized power throwing its lot in Europe. Otherwise Prussia would quickly become either a French or a Russian puppet.

>>88722447
Yeah you right, part of the place is contested territory between French and british anyway.
But yeah, make the space between England and French coast a bit wider and your good with me.

Semi-related, but I want to make the French settler in Doggerland Gaulish larper. Part of the population is made of people who felt with Fallen-France and where relocated when they lost their homes. Their time underground left a bit of a mark on them and it spread to their neighbours, decided the best solution so survive in hostile environement is to go full "My Ancestor :DDDD".

>>88722447
Also forgot to mention it here >>88722513
But I'm all for >>88721728 a big bay in northen France/southern neatherlands as a result of the dramatic geological changes. Bruges becoming even more Venice sound cool. Dunkerkian are very confused about the whole things but happy they still have a waterfront.

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>>88722547
Like this? Personally, I think Prussia should't be getting jack shit. They are out of the game for good. We have no shortage of factions, and they can just remain an irrelevant non-power like the Scandis for instance. You just either strike deals with Volcano gods or collapse underground and get Agartha haxx or you don't, such is life. Robbed of potential colonies yet again!

>>88722874
The idea is not to create a new faction, but to have a realm who can realistically hold its own without being a de facto puppet. I wouldn't want a scandi faction either at this point, but my understanding is that there are auxiliaries going around and having a list of which great powers can field which mercenaries could prove interesting.

>>88722911
Angry Prussians could be discount mercs for anyone fighting Italians and, when they're in the game, Danubians. Idk, maybe they could've delineated zones of influence after Austria's victory? With Hannover remaining with Prussia. I honestly kinda like the idea of the Confederation (keep in my mind it's essentially still a bunch of kingdoms and duchies) being a buffer zone of sorts, which would also explain why Austrians don't claim HRE title.

>>88722980
Ok, that could work: the Austrians have started talking retarded nonsense about "german freedoms" again but that sort of backfired when the germans refused to assimilate. That could justify not having a second HRE. But I am still not sold on the danube thing. That sounds like a compromise in a moment in which the Austrians have the upper hand to reinforce the core identities of their rule: catholic, imperial and german.

>>88722874
Yeah, something like that, I imagine it having roughly those coast (plus doggerland pilling on the side of course, so for exemple Dunkerque only have the bay for coast now).

Bruges is now a semi-island and making mad dosh.

File: The Great Bay.png (1.15 MB, 1315x895)

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>>88723020
Forgot pic like dumbass

>>88721537
for the last time, what the fuck is the point of Agartha and the lost land of EVERYTHING above is insane? it ruins the entire point of the setting. The underground is several hundreds of thousand of feet below, anything that happens there never sees the light of day, just like Africa for most of its time until the late 70s and 90s.

anons have completely lost the plot yet again.

>>88723280
Only insane people on the surface are Italians, Ottomans and arguably the French. And their crazyness is because they have deeper contact with Agartha.

>>88722038
Good points, but I think that Austria restoring the HRE would cause a shitstorm from all the nationalists this affects. Given the scale and underground shenanigans, 1848 would be even more insane.
Also, don’t overestimate how powerful the UK was. Having naval power does lot equate to actual political power, as seen by the chaos in Crimea. With the Brits losing their most profitable colonies, the expansion should be seen as a desperate land grab more than anything.
Also, if we ever want to include the Tsardom, the Balkans would probably be the best way to do so. The Turks being skellified would be the perfect excuse for Panslsvists to demand a holy war to save their Slavic brothers in the Balkans.

>>88723343
>Also, if we ever want to include the Tsardom, the Balkans would probably be the best way to do so. The Turks being skellified would be the perfect excuse for Panslsvists to demand a holy war to save their Slavic brothers in the Balkans.
Absolutely agreed + responded to this in the next post as a follow up.

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So like this? Honestly, I DO kinda see the case for not going insane with Doggerland and just handwave it as layer magic.
The line delineates rough zones of influence between France and Austria, Hanover is integrated (could also be under influence) and, given this reshuffling, Prussians would most certainly take Schleswig-Holstein.
As for the name Danubian, well, it IS a compromise. With all those Slavs and Vlachs who wanted equal representation in the Empire! But those evil Hungarians wouldn't let them! They wanted it to be Austria-Hunagry! But not anymore! Ours is an enlightened state where all are equal, us Germans are simply first among the equals. The equalest of them all.

>>88723616
>well, it IS a compromise
Is this necessary though? The alliance with the Three Sicilies (name to be reviewed) has strengthened Austria and removed some pesky neighbors like the Piedmontese. Why would they back off now?

>>88723683
I meant to say it was a manipulative tactic to pit others against Hungarians. I mean, I am not particularly attached to the name. We could just go with Austia (not Hungary) and call it a day.

>>88723616
>The undead control Jerusalem

Ok, I feel like I might be derailing stuff. I will try to draft a sort of document on the Three Sicilies to try and make the situation a little bit more realistic and grounded in history, while also accounting of the random underground bullshit. Where can I find a compendium on what has been established as canon for the Three Sicilies up until this point? Also dates/timelines would be very helpful

>>88723616
Yeah, perfect to me. I find it aestheticly pleasing
>DO kinda see the case for not going insane with Doggerland and just handwave it as layer magic
Not trying to make anything crazy with it, some other anon wanted a map and people seemed to be confused about what the place looked like. If nobody disagree with the current geographical look, I say we amend it. Just some lands dragged out of the sea by layer contraction (aka layer magic).

>>88723722
One more reason for the Alliance of the Faithfull to venture underground and strike the undead menace at it's heart !

>>88723762
Eh, we're about to hit bumplimit anyway. Go ahead. Are you cool with Volcano Tyranny, as long as it's not literal fucking Francesco II, declared Servant of God by the Pope in 2020? Or any other Bourbon for that matter?

>>88723817
My dumb ass idea is that it's a consortium of local families creating a de facto oligarchy. Tyrant was also the title that greek overlords in Magna Graecia took for themselves, so all in all it could tie in very nicely with the collective LARPing.

>>88723762
The lore doc >>88708613 is what you want. Nothing is really set in stone beside
>Italy failed to colonize Ethiopia
>Italy is controled by Volcano pagan
>Christian tried to revolt and where forced to flee
>Italian Tyrant is allied with Central powers at a level or another

I don't know if was written down there, but Ethiopia is AoF aligned or even part of it. There was discussion about them getting help from christian who opposed the Italian (already turning pagan at this point ?) conquering fellow christian.

>>88723860
>>Italy failed to colonize Ethiopia
Yeah I am going to need a stricter timeline on this. Also remind me briefly what is AoF?

>>88723839
The only date I can remember is that the Catholic revolt against the Tyrant happens in 1868 and that the Italian unification happened in large part thanks to Volcano shenanigans. I personally am fine as long as we don't use Francesco, because it is a bit too silly. The guy refused to partition the Papal States when given the offer by Sardinia-Piedmote ffs.

>>88723896
Yes, Francesco should not be the Volcan Tyrant one way or another.

>>88723887
Alliance of Faithful. After Pope got kicked out of Rome, he fled and assembled christians under him. Biggest member are Spain, Portugal and well Ethiopia (who is doing pretty well) with christian from all over, including a good number from south america, joining the banner of the Pope. Venturing in the depth to establish a New Vatican there and to strike at their ennemies until they can retake the Vatican proper (if they ever do). Formal support from France (who apparently let them operate in Avignon and wage a Alpine war) who don't like having Volcano worshiper on it's frontiers (and probably want to throw sand in the gear of the central powers).

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>>88723887
I've found the timeline for Ethiopia. IIRC, we settled on the Pope running to Spain, where he basically rallied Spain and Portugal behind the Catholic cause against Italy and demonic Agarthan influences. Spain, Portugal, Italian refugees and Catholic volunteers from around the world help repel Italian invasion of Ethiopia, after which an unlinkely Alliance is formed between the countries. It was a way to tie up some loose ends left from Spain and Ethiopia (Ethiopia was on the compass and war with Italy was mentioned) as well as the natural development of the Volcano Pagan plotline (no way Catholics wouldn't rebel). The thing with Spain and Portugal was that basically they became very reactionary fundamentalist regimes (not that unrealistic in this timeframe) in response to the Italian shitshow and led a joint expedition into Agartha in an attempt to revitalize their decrepit empires. I've played a hand in it, but I can see the case on cutting down on some silliness.

>>88723616
I personally imagine that while Doggerland expanded to cover the Fallen France hole it dragged a bunch of stuff up from the third layer with it, basically turningpart of the surface into a deep-drunk affected environment in Northern France that's barely liveable for humans. You'd then have a number of fissures in the earth through which the Third Layer can be reached, but only with great difficulty until the Eiffel Tower and Iceland are opened up.

>>88724133
I will start drafting something, I am not married to any of the ideas I will be bringing forth however.

>>88724165
Netherlands have as much if not more doggerlands than France, don't want them to be too fucked up. I think Doggerland being relatively normal (except for some limited access to Third layers as you mentionned) but giving "hints" of something below is fine. Like the first sign something weird await.

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Made a less schizo map where only Britain, France, Belgium and Netherlands are affected. Given the direction of the pulls, I think it's justified. Also another proposition for Germany.

We could always still nuke Netherlands and just have Low Countries replaced by Doggerland.

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Like this

>>88724692
Note that I am a retard and despite launching the whole doggerland debate I ONLY looked at the netherlands, not realising it affected everything around the north sea and even the baltic sea.
But yeah, I much prefer this, only Netherland, France and Britain affected, that was my intention anyway. I understand why some anons where unhappy about it.

About Netherlands, I'm in favor of keeping them, even if they aren't a player factions or do much, it's nice to have faction who are normal and just there. But if people just want to make it a contested zone I'm no strongly opposed to it.

>>88724947
I'll be honest, I like the contested zone more. I frankly struggle to imagine how Netherlands would even function after this shitshow.

>>88724976
As I say, fine by me too, it would be a very low intensity conflict anyway, neither France or the UK want a real war about what is mostly kinda shitty entrance.

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Welp, I think I'm happy with this one. I imagine the borders would also be hard to retrace and subject to disputes. And Dunkirkers can still have their new seafront!
Are we fine with this German partition? Might as well hash it out before the new thread.

>>88725163
That the zone of influence of each country in the german states, right ? Fine by me.

>>88720190
>Do you WANT this to be a small-scale skirmish game? Or would you prefer it to end up an actual wargame?
I think >>88720210 is right about it, there should be multiple game modes, from Necromunda-style open map to hex map campaigns with settlement management, and maybe a rank&file version somewhere in the middle.

>>88725504
>an entirely fictional setting now has a fucking franchise, with several game modes, novels, and even people getting mad over entirely pretend things

>>88725532
which is funny but also cause for concern. I am not opposed to scaling shit up but I think the game was originally thought of a skirmish game and should be first and foremost developed in those terms.

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>all this aboveground lore
>we barely have anything about the below ground civilization as is
who the fuck invited the buzzkilling loretranny and why is anyone indulging them?
We already have lore for the multiple nations, it's called the mid to late 1800s, the divergence is what happens with the expedition forces.

>>88725542
Maybe style it like Warhammer, where you have different rulesets. I was thinking some naming convention like Encounter for the skirmish mode and Punitive Expedition for the rank & file game mode

>>88725612
Nigger, when I propose additions to Atlantis lore in the doc nobody as much as tells me to kill myself.

>>88725612
Also we've been writing good lore for Lemuria recently too. We've just been over some rules today. We discuss aboveground for the last posts before we hit bumplimit and suddenly its REEEEEEEEE BUZZKILL BUZZKILL

>>88725612
Then write the lore for the stuff you want. We already have Cromwell and Napoleon down there. We have the Atlan civil war split from Atlantis. We have the Nameless Khan and Mommy down there. What would you like developed, anon?

>>88725612
>why is anyone indulging them?
Because it's relevant to their interests, people write on what they want to develop, if you have complaint, do the same instead of being a cunt.

We're on page 7, maybe it's time for a new thread?

I really like the idea of Insitute of Agarthan Science, what would be the equivalent (if there is one) for other factions ?

>>88726233
Royal Agarthic Society?

>>88726289
Mind you, it's a proposition, I don't think we have one for Britain yet.

>>88726233
I think they'd be a neutral group meant only for lore purposes, their representation being generic explorer and scientist character models.