The combination Geothermal and Breeder Reactor has been discovered, and is cleared.

There is a large amount of nuclear waste which is just fissionable enough to add a MASSIVE stockpile to your Fissile Materials!

---

Alert: Janith Kindergarten, your old World Cook, has come with a request. She would like to know if you could use your miracle science to clone what she calls "chickens" for eggs. Chickens went extinct during the war.

>>>>>Food: Average (Rising) [CAP: Average]
Passive Booze Ration: Low (higher for soldiers)
>>>>>Water: Average (Stable) [CAP: Average]
>>>>>Medicine: Above Average (Stable)
>>>>>>Materials: Scrap Metal (Average) Fissile (HUGE+++)
Scrap Wood (tiny)
Special Electronics (---) Hygiene Supplies (Abundant) Booze (---) [Falling] Alien Tech Scraps (low) Hexcrete Bags (Above Average)
Plant Material (Tiny)
Trona Minerals (Low)
>>>>>Fuel: Airplane Fuel (Low) Ethanol (uses Food)
>>>>>Total Pop: 252 Humans (and companions) +55 Infants +40 Mutants/Nightkin, 2 Ghoul
>>>>>Total Armaments (proportionate to the total pop) Below Average
>>>>>>Weapons: Type (Subtype, Amount, Condition)
(Mercenary) - Moderate
-Energy Firearms
(Human Plasma/Laser) - Below Average
(Alien) - Below Average
(Chinese Alien-Jurry Rigged) - Below Average
>>>>>>Ammunition Reserve: Conventional (Below Average) Energy (Moderate)
>>>>>>Armor/Uniforms:
(OW American Infantry Armor, Moderate, Intact)
(OW American Infantry Uniforms, Moderate, Intact)
(7 Alien Bounty Hunter Armor)
(7 Alien Bounty Hunter Big Rifles)
(35 Dr. Mobius Scrubs + Dr. Mobius Glasses)

>OUTPOSTS<
--CHINA RANCH--
++Outpost++
>>>>>Military: 25 Securitrons MKV. 5 Spy-Eye Bots Squads
>>>>> Infrastructure: Ruined buildings. Digital Radio Tower.
>>>>> Power: Big Alien Battery
>>>>>Defenses: Ruined Houses. MAXIMUM SURVEILANCE
>>>>>Animals:

!NEW!
--TRONA---
++Outpost++
>>>>>Military: 25 Securitrons MKV 5 Spy-Eye Bots Squads
>>>>> Infrastructure: Ruined buildings. Digital Radio Tower. Highway to BigMT
>>>>> Power: Big Alien Battery
>>>>>Defenses: Ruined Houses. MAXIMUM SURVEILANCE
>>>>>Animals:

---NEWBERRY SPRINGS---
++BigMT Outpost++
>>>>>Military: 25 Securitrons MK5 5 Spy-Eye Bots Squads
>>>>> Infrastructure: Houses. Lake. Hemp Farm (Small). Banana Yucata (Medium) Spice Farm (tiny). Water Pump to BigMT. Electrical Wires to BigMT
>>>>> Power: Borrowed from BIgMT.
>>>>>Defenses: Ruined Houses. *Nat100* Robot Defenses.
>>>>>Animals:
>>>>>Other: Omni-Agronator!

---THE TWIN MINES (West+South)---
>>>>>Military: None
>>>>> Infrastructure: Railroads. Open Pit Quarry.
>>>>>Defenses: Mountain
>>>>>Animals:
>>>>>Other:

---THE CRATER---
>>>>>Morale: Above Average (Stable)
Permanent:
Patriotism (Below Average- Phoenix Commonwealth)
!NEW!
Military Pride (Below Moderate)
>>>>>Current Pop:
31 Human
20 Infants
1 Ghoul
>>>>>Garrison:
5 Devils Brigade - Power Armor
20 Couriers Companions - Arcade, Doc Delilah, Cass, Raul, Veronica, ED-E, Rusty, Wendy Gilbert, Hazel, Desmond Harper, Vanessa, Joana, AXE MAN, Milton+Hans, Sonia, Riddick, Dean Domino, Couripor, Mary-Jo Casey, Cain
+1 Super Heavy Omni-Constructor
+10 MKV Hazard-Salvager Securitron
+10 Sentry Shield-Juggernaut Minigunners
+33 Securitrons MKV
+60 Small Flyer Repairbots
1 GIANT ROBO SCORPION
+50 Spy-Eye Bots
>>>>>Prisoner: None
>>>>> Infrastructure: Higgs Village Warehouse [6 Intact Homes w/{Toilets, Air Condition}, Indoor living area. Raul’s Shack. Follower Hospital. 5 Box Cars. Latrines. Plumbing Water. Heated Water. Indoor Ventilation.) The DOME. The SINK (BigMT Command Center. The THINK TANK). The FORBIDDEN ZONE. . Boom Town Shooting Course Lobotomite Pleasure House (Primitive). Constrution Site (Small). Y-0 Research Center. Scrap Performance Stage. X-2 Transmitter Array. Hemp Farm.
Chinese War Factory
Chemical Mill (Small)
Concrete Military HQ/Barracks + Intelligence Center - James Bond. General Kreger.
Magneto Hydraulics Plant Robotics Facility
Cass' Multipurpose Ethanol/Alcohol Distillery (Tiny)
X-12 Biological Research Plant (Small)
Automated Hexcrete Plant (Small)
Securitron Deconstructino Plant / General Robotics Research Facility (Small)
X-13 Research Factility / Medical VR University (Small)
X-2 Antennae Transmitter Array - Mr. New Vegas. Ms. New Washington
Doppler Radar
Large Scale Replicator
AUTOMATED ROBOT FACTORY
>>>>>Defenses: Radar Fence/Mountain Range. Laser Turrets (Few)
Watch Towers. MAXIMUM SURVEILANCE
>>>>>Vehicles: 1 Riddick’s Charge Co. Dodger. 1 Giant Crane (Ruined) 1 Alien Scoutship (INTACT)
>>>>>>Power: Electricity (HUGE). BigMT Underground Reactors
>>>>>>Other
+The THINK TANK
+Dr. MOBIUS
+Unity
+Julia Farkas
+Arcade Ganon
+Jacob Miles
+Tony Gam
+Janith Kindergarten
+20 Researchers (Followers of the Apocalypse)
+10 Experienced Combat Medics/Researchers [OW American Infantry Armor] (Plasma/Laser) {Veterans} {Augmented!}
+45 Assorted Research Robots (normal)
+55 Captured Female Lobotomites
+67 Captured Male Lobotomites.
+20 Construction Bots
+10 VR Life Support Pods (debrained Version)

>---NEW WASHINGTON---
>>>>>>Morale: Above Average (Slowly Falling)
>Permanent: Patriotism (Below Average- Phoenix Commonwealth)
>>>>>>Armaments: Average
>>>>>>Current Pop:
>203 Human
>35 Infants
>+40 Super Mutants/Nightkin

>>>>>>Garrison:
>1 Couriers Companions – Doc Mitchel
>+10 Mr. Orderly Robots
>+2 Experienced Higher Officers (Urban Veteran) [OW American Infantry Armor] (Plasma/Laser) {Experienced Veterans} {Augmented!}
40 Child Soldiers “Freeside Rats” (Various)
+20 Super Mutants
+20 NightKin
+156 Securitrons MKV Hazard Bot
+(Plentiful) Spy-Eye Bots

Squads:
>General Infantry Squad: (6 Regular Infantry, 1 Experienced Soldier "NCO", 1 Trained Regular Officer)
>Traits:[OW American Infantry Armor] (Weapons:Plasma/Laser) {Experienced Veteran Leaders}{Veteran Infantry} {Augmented!}
8 Squads [8/8]

>Garrison Infantry Squad: (Assorted infantry)
>Traits:[OW American Infantry Armor] (Weapons:Plasma/Laser){Veteran} {Augmented!}
2 Squads [8/8] [7/7]

>1 Command Platoon:
>Traits:[OW American Infantry Armor] (Weapons:Plasma/Laser) {Experienced Veteran Leaders}{Veteran Infantry} {Augmented!} **Command Unit**
+1 TACT bot {Combat Veteran}
+2 Experienced Higher Officers (Urban Veteran)
+8 Experienced Regular Infantry
+5 Mr. Orderly Robots
+Doc Doc Orderly MD PHD DDS

>>>>>Prisoner: None
1 Presidental Manor
100 Hexcrete Hex Houses (Indoor plumbing/Shower, electricity)
Asphault Roads. Sewer System. Night Lamps.
Desert Landscaping
Spring Well. Clean Water Tank (Intact)
Banana Yucca Farm (Large)
Cotton Farm (Medium)
Concrete School House (Tiny)
Glass Mill (Small)
Public Washing Machines.
Water Treatment/Fertilizer Plant
(Small) Bar + Cafeteria + Kitchen + Janith's Equipment
Solar Collector Tower Station (Small)
>>>>>Defenses: Disease Quarantine Measures (Primitive)
>>>>>Vehicles: 1 Vertibird, 1 Fuel Economic Fuel Semi Truck, 7 Tracked Construction Vehicles (Mining Specialized) Jacob Mile's Mr. Fix-It Frame. 5 Chinese Supply Trucks
>>>>>>Power: Electricity (Adequate) {Shared from The Crater}. Electrical Poles. Solar Collector Tower Station (Small)

>>>>>>Other:
+Marcus
+Keene
+34 Herd Animals (Brahmin/Bighorn)
+9 Baby Brahmin
+30 Mr. Howdy's Farming Robots

>>>>>A. Scavenge (for what)
>>>>>B. Try to improve (which) base
>>>>>C. Try to improve weapons (where).
>>>>>D. Research technology.
>>>>>E. Explore in a direction/something.
>>>>>F. Scavenge for raw materials (where/what)
>>>>>G. Your choice/Write in
>>>>>Turn: 107

ALERT

Next Turn is the NCR's Centenniel.

You have gained 1 Passive Robotic Production Action. Just list an existing, researched Robot Type or Upgrade.

However, if you roll using a normal or construction action for robots, it will be put toward that instead.

>>1719989
Turn

Hero: Prepare for the NCR's Centenniel, like gifts, and get the family ready.
Civ: Finish Train
Construct: Green Houses, so our farms use less water, and are more efficiency.
Research: Cloning (we can clone other animals)

For Civ we could alway make Hyro Spray to get that metal from NCR. Maybe it'll be good to bring some to the NCR's Centenniel as a sign of good will

>>1720004
>Research: Cloning (we can clone other animals)
Wouldn't help since we lack the genetics of a chicken to even work from.


Easier solution: Gecko's and various other animals produce eggs and exist in large states post-war. Capture and rear these like Chickens.

>>1720004
Please add Building some Securitrons and Axebots to that.

>>1720018
>>1719989
>>1720015
Updated List
Hero: Prepare for the NCR's Centenniel, like gifts, and get the family ready.
Civ: Robot Production
Construct: Green Houses, so our farms use less water, and are more efficiency.
Research: Cloning by Gecko's and various other animals produce eggs and exist in large states post-war. Capture and rear these like Chickens.

How about now?

>>1720004
i'll go for this if we passively build bastions.

Also what are we going to do about what the plant showed us?

>>1720028
I never like that kid, so no to the marriage, we never agreed to it. We can talk with Unity about it, free action. I don't want our kid to revolt against her parents and go with him, only to end up killed.

>>1720037
yeah, lets talk to unity about this.
We might have to put an end to his vampiric ways though.

>>1720037
We should do that some turns later so as to not arouse suspicion from the forecaster, we did just come back from the underground.

Rolled 23 (1d100)

>>1720025
Supporting

>>1720004
No researching any of the toxic clean up suits or bots?

>>1720025
I'm not sure what the research action is. Is it cloning Geckos? or is it cloning things in Gecko eggs?

>>1720058
I say we could hold off on making or using FEV until later, since I feel it better use elsewhere, we're come back to it in time.

>>1720060
It's using gecko's as a base to our generics, allow us to start the first steps in cloning animals that can lay eggs.

>>1720015
Wouldn't there be a DNA bank somewhere in BigMT? They did keep Rattlesnake DNA.

>>1720069
>I say we could hold off on making or using FEV until later, since I feel it better use elsewhere, we're come back to it in time.
But Unity is getting impatient.

>>1720089
We have build the FEV lab, she is fine for now. She is patient, but her people are less so. We have it build so at least they will stop they asking for it getting build.

Took us 3 years to build it, they can wait at least one more to have it working FEV

>>1720025
This

How about finishing the train to get our HEX moving?

>>1719989
How about

>Hero:Prepare for the NCR's Centenniel, like gifts, and get the family ready.- maybe call up, get an idea on what would be going on during the centennial

>civ: finish train

>construct: greenhouses

>research: Hazmat suits for people

and have the passive production on bastion units.

>>1720103
>We have build the FEV lab.
>We have it build so at least they will stop they asking for it getting build.
No we haven't, at all.
We only have begun preliminary work, we need either Anti-toxins, Hazmat suits or Hazmat robots to begin actual work on building the FEV lab.

>>1720111
Nice Trips. But we have above Average in Hex right now, so the train can wait for a bit. If we want passive Hex, we can make a loading station, loading robots, and finish that train.

Maybe late, but yeres my idea for the turn.

Free action - talk to unity about our vision
Hero - continue the exploration of the Big Mt underground.

Civ - let's finish building our train.

Construction - green houses are a good idea.
Passive robot production - bastion bots

Research - develop advanced hazmat suits for labourers.

>>1720136
It's about pre planning, so we don't run out. best to just finish it of now. We're going to spend an action on it anyways sometime.

>>1720135
How about we do that next turn? But we have to first make Hazmat suits or the other choices the scientists said we could do.

>>1720147
>How about we do that next turn?
Yea alright.

>>1720147
the chicken thing is less of a priority. We don't have to drop everything to get eggs and such.

>>1720028
Keep the Forecaster under closer observation by our robotic surveillance net. Especially when he is interacting with our daughter.

>>1720037
We can at the very least look into what he has been telling her and such but I don't want to overreact.

>>1720069
No, I meant that we could capture some Gecko's for eggs instead of using chickens. How did you misinterpret it so badly?

>>1720079
True but the likelihood of them having such a common and useless animal for military purposes and it surviving in good condition through the war / all the Big mt shit is unlikely as hell.

>>1720143
This.

>>1720143
Can the Forecaster read minds?

>>1720143
I'll support this as well.

disregard >>1720119

>>1720111
>>1720053
>>1720025

>>1719989
Here are three votes OP.

>>1720146
I say since we don't be using HEX this turn we could wait for the next turn to finish it.

>>1720143
>>1720146
As for the robots, I find we should boost it, so we can get the bots we lost back, and more in case of a attack. I agree in going with passive at robots factory in the next turns.

>>1720158
I say more like it's a base for our other cloning for the future. Since we can trade many things for it

>>1720161
>How did you misinterpret it so badly?
Just how I read it.

>>1720161
>True but the likelihood of them having such a common and useless animal for military purposes and it surviving in good condition through the war / all the Big mt shit is unlikely as hell.
Worth a try.

>>1720162
I doubt it, but maybe. If he can we dont know about it in game.

>>1720176
If we don't know then we can't tell Unity until we're certain, if the Forecaster can read minds he can learn that we know about his plan from the hivemind.

>>1720176
Well he can read the future. Tho it's in hurtful visions so he could maybe see we're going for him.

>>1720025
Roll me 3 1d100s!

>>1720182
But we also need Unity to keep a close eye out for Sam, maybe start pulling her away from him.

And He hasn't shown any ability to mind read before,

Rolled 42 (1d100)

>>1720204

>>1720204
QM, three votes for
>>1720143
>>1720161
>>1720170

Rolled 46 (1d100)

>>1720204

>>1720204
Qm, i think we actually have a tie at the moment, unless i counted wrong.

>>1720212
>>1720215
It's first vote for three, tho I do agree on some of them to do for next turn

>>1720219
There have been instances where we had ties at 3, and waited for a tiebreak.

>>1720212
I ain't voting for that, I am voting for >>1720143 since we can wait on the request for chickens.

>>1720227
I like to pick something then waiting for hours for someone to change their mind

>>1720235
that's what I'm saying. You, and I supported Multi-ID Anon for 3 votes.

Rolled 12 (1d100)

>>1720204

>>1720219
Its first vote to 3 UNLESS there is a tie.

I insist on a tie breaker, whether by anon's or myself.

>>1720246
Oh sorry I misread.

>>1720251
Sorry, we never have ties

need a tiebreaker

File: Drone2.jpg (172 KB, 1600x1200)

172 KB JPG

>>1720259
Ties depend on the thread and how heated the arguments get.

To the anon from last thread showing off his aerial drone designs, i liked this one for our surveillance from your list. Looks neat.

>>1720025
This i guess.

>>1720294
Well theres our tiebreaker unfortunately.

>>1720303
Next turn I support finishing the train, and researching advanced hazmat suits

>>1720303
I'm just unsure about telling Unity, bring it back up 2 turns from now and i might support it.

>>1720321
I agree it will just look to forcaster we're against him right after we left the caves. We need to lower his guard with time.

>>1720276
Here is the tiebreaker you wanted
>>1720294

>>1720342
But if he is suspicious about us and moves his plans foreward just in case, we leave Unity and Sam unprepared.

>>1720364
He think he will marry a 3 or 4 year girl? He still will wait a few years.

>>1720321
Telling someone thats close to us about a vision that may not even be true (due to all kinds of reasons posted last thread) isnt out of the normal for us. Plus the potential that it is true give our family a needed warning that they can then use as they see fit.

>>1720025
Writing

>>1720382
He can just accelerate the stab her and suck her life force out part of the plan.

If hes concerned about losing the future kingsized. Life force, he may just take the bite sized.

>>1720418
It still a free action to tell Unity, so it can be added in, if we wanted too.

>>1720454
then lets do it.

>>1720025
>Civ: Robot Production
What kind?

I will default to MKV - Faceless Non-Hazard Securitrons otherwise

>>1720460
Hold a vote, and link OP so he see it.

>>1720471
bastion bots

>>1720471
Divide equipped Bastions and Axebots.

>>1720471
bastions.


Who wants to tell Unity about the vision now?

>>1720476
Hmmm.

You have not developed Hazard Bastions or Hazard Axebots

If so, I will make it a research action and then allow the factory to passively produce some of the fresh prototypes.

>>1720476
This, assuming we have Hazard models of these models.


If not, then MK-V Faceless Hazard Securitrons.

>>1720483
Yea that's fine.

>>1720483
sure

>>1720483
Keep researched as is

qm you have inspired me to ever so slowly start working on my own fallout quest

>>1720583
Ooh, would love to see it.

I was thinking on quests to run in the far future when this quest is finished. I was considering one based on Rise of Legends.

>>1720594
Im unfamiliar with that setting.

>>1720649
Essentially steampunk versus magic in a setting where the power of the two is roughly equal.


It's...interesting at the very least.

>>1720653
>>1720649
Hmmm, I may have overestimated the amount of people who played that game or remember it fondly. I do have a few other ideas though.

>>1720673
Dont take my ignorance as an average estimation of your player base, im ignorant of a great many things.

>>1720143
Supporting this for next turn.

As the green houses will be built, replace the construction action with an automated mine to produce hexacrete that our engineer mentioned.

>>1720708
>replace the construction action with an automated mine to produce hexacrete that our engineer mentioned.

We have to build a loading station using the construct action, and have to finish the train using the civ action.

>Next Turn is the NCR's Centenniel.
Also the NCR is next turn and we want to be their.
So here is a updated list of the things you want.

Free action - talk to unity about our vision or Not
(Free action so we deiced)

Hero - GO to NCR Centenniel with family, bearing gifts and other useful things.
(Bring Riddick and other useful guys, anon's pick)

Civ - let's finish building our train.

Construction - Loading Station for HEX

Passive robot production - bastion bots

Research - develop advanced hazmat suits for laborers.

>>1720681
What do you think of this? Taking you list, but updated for Hero going to NCR place, and doing the other things you wanted

>>1720673
Never played it or heard it.
But I would think you never played King of Dragon Pass

>>1720737
that looks fine to me.

We should probably leave riddick and cain behind, they don't seem like the celebration type.

We can take the mothers and kids, arcade, raul,ed-e, and rusty for the kids. Leave the forecaster and we get to talk to sma and unity with him very far away.

>>1720737
Im one of the people who think going to the ncr centennial is a complete waste of time. But if you get the votes, you do you man

>>1720781
>>1720770
Anon, I think it can be a useful thing for our time, as we can talk with the higher up, set up better trade routes, learn the current status of the wars against Legion and MLA.

If we don't keep up gathering info, we're going to be in a nasty surprise later on. It's going to help us a bit going into the NCR centennial, we can explore later, this Centennial comes only once every 100 years

>>1720799
i know, Which is why I want to go.

>>1720819
I agree anon. This way we can use our charisma 10 and speech/barter 100 to make some trade deals, or getting some inner talk sneaking into the some high private places and stealing or learning army movement, supplies lines or other.

>>1720799
Thats fine, its your opinion and i respect it. I dont agree with it.

If you're looking for an argument, ill direct you to the last thread. Those two anons had a lovely argument about it that went nowhere.

>>1720857
K anon. I posted what I posted not to argue, but to convince other anons

Now we wait, if OP comes back or not.
Either way I follow this quest for fun.

>>1720870

im not trying to insult you if thats how it came across. I try to stay away from the arguments as much as i can, because like you im just trying to have fun.

>>1720903
My K post I didn't mean it, as dismissing you. I too like to stay away from arguments,
I made the post mostly for the other anons,
not really direction to you to start a argument.

>>1720927
its a new thread, nothing wrong with bringing up just the talking points.

>>1720870
I'm here. I do a lot of thinking and research for these turns sometimes

>>1720799
>If we don't keep up gathering info, we're going to be in a nasty surprise later on.
Speaking of that, remember how much Elijah's cloud had moved when we traveled to Texas.

Dealing with him is priroty number 1 after we take the divide.

>>1720953
Assuming we can restore the nuclear capabilities of the Divide, along with anything we might rally from our Enclave associates and such. We should gain access to at least a dozen ICBM's with large nuclear warheads.

Personally I feel this is our only way of actually beating or at least slowing him down significantly.

Side note - qm says we need 5 exceptional brains for our zax. My proposal is that we use house as 1 of the 5, if tge legion hasnt found his room and killed him.

Chances are that theres no way hell work with us willingly (that nat 1) but his brain is exceptional factoring in the Zax Rewrite.

>>1720979
We don't need exceptional brains just good ones. Personally I have advised methods by which gathering these might be achieved assuming we are willing to disregard moral problems and can develop some technologies.

>>1720990
>>1720979
How about we build the rest of the ZAX first before finding the brains?
Since we do need to build it anyway

>>1720979
Didn't we bring house with us.

>>1721015

we put him to sleep and left him. How would we bring him with us? he needs to stay in his pod, with life support on.

>>1720990
>Personally I have advised methods by which gathering these might be achieved assuming we are willing to disregard moral problems and can develop some technologies.
No.

>>1721011
>>1720990
Not advocating we go and collect him right now, just wanted anons opinion on house as a viable candidate or not.

>>1721011
True.

>>1721021
You didn't even inquire as to the moral problems or technologies.

>>1721030
>>1721037
I like the old guy, also we could get some engineers/doctors from MLA, or Legion. MLA need people to rig their shit, and Legion need people to make and keep the flaming swords in order.

>>1721030
He very well might be but it occurs to me that a brain that old probably is suffering from dementia or some other disease of the mind.

>>1721037
I will inquire. Chances are they arent that bad.

>>1721044
Chances are they are that bad, but lets hear it anyways.

>>1721037
>You didn't even inquire as to the moral problems or technologies.
If you are who i think you are it's highly likely i will disagree with what you propose.

>>1721052
>>1721063
>>1721044
>>1721043
Seems like we all play together enough that we know each other, by the way we type and the ideas we put forth. Even without names

>>1721081
Well it has been almost 3 months of this.

>>1721091
True, but it just goes to show even if we have different views of some things, we can all come together and have fun

>>1721081
True enough

File: Hamms_Brewery.jpg (1.17 MB, 1260x691)

1.17 MB JPG

>>1720143
>Construction - green houses are a good idea.
They are actually a good idea for some reasons, but it turns out, not exactly the reasons you may be after.

Greenhouses will improve the health of the crop, provide better humidity control and, if installed, temperature control as well. Crops will be larger.

However, as it turns out, the conservation of water may actually be minimal or insignificant. The effect is more on temperature and climate than anything, and conventional greenhouses aren't specifically built to recycle condensation. Your crops will be larger and healther, but may increase water consumption as a result.

With the discovery of the cleared out Caverns, your scientists would like to propose an alternative solution: Indoor farming.

These WILL conserve the precious water (and to boot, you have found a river!). It will be more expensive, costing more steel and some hexcrete plus be more energy consumptive, but has the benefits of water conservation. Though, there won't be much of an increase in crop yield as, though the plants are larger and healthier, there isn't as much space to grow on in comparison to outside soil. And yet there is so much space in the cavern and room for improvement.

Your scientists say that the most effective means to conserve water would be to use long and expensive actions to shift above ground farming into new, underground farms. Specialized lighting could even be developed specifically meant to grow farms better. The BCR room approves these calculations.

>What do?

>>1721044
>>1721052
Well we need good quality brains for the 2.0 ZAX, we will need either a large population to search for such examples or a test or something to find them. Given that even if we had such a test, we lack the population to spare, we must look outside our own population for a source since we can't support the conversion of five brains.

Thus we are left with the fact that we need a source of humans, who aren't mentally damaged by drugs or other such things. The easiest source of a population to exploit, by kidnapping and conversion of all captured, is the Legion. Who abhor drugs while also lacking the ability to prevent our works.

Luckily low and moderate quality brains can also find use in our empire as well. As a viable method for controlling the swarms of our air force involves using sheer numbers of brains to process the data, mounted into specialised bodies in the field to support the most of them in a small space and wiping them like high quality ones will improve their performance.

>>1721120
Qm, i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but my vote didnt win. You got the wrong one man.

File: FO2_Skynet_body.png (29 KB, 346x251)

29 KB PNG

>>1721121
>Dr. Mobius
"Good brains are so hard to find.

Why, I remember some of my contemptionaries said that Cyberized brains were so much better. They could take an average brain and attach enough chips and modify it to their needs."

>Brain
"Mhm, yes I believe that would be practical. Any brains could do actually, if you're willing to fund the implants to improve them for computerization standards."

>>1721136
Oh woops.

>>1720025
This is the one
But >>1721120
still applies.

>>1721120
CHOOSE

>>1721121
Problem with using enemy brains is that i bet they will influence the ZAX even when mindwiped.
Unless QM says the mindwipe removes 100% of the original personality i will hesitate using enemy brains.

>>1721148
normal greenhouse

>>1721148

Ill vote for
>Your scientists say that the most effective means to conserve water would be to use long and expensive actions to shift above ground farming into new, underground farms. Specialized lighting could even be developed specifically meant to grow farms better. The BCR room approves these calculations.

The time it takes will give us time to continue scoiting out the underdark.

>>1721158
Wipe eliminates all memory, personality and consciousness. If they can still do that shit afterwards I'd be amazed.

>>1721120
First Choice
>Your scientists say that the most effective means to conserve water would be to use long and expensive actions to shift above ground farming into new, underground farms. Specialized lighting could even be developed specifically meant to grow farms better. The BCR room approves these calculations.

Second Choice if the Above isn't voted
>These WILL conserve the precious water (and to boot, you have found a river!). It will be more expensive, costing more steel and some hexcrete plus be more energy consumptive, but has the benefits of water conservation. Though, there won't be much of an increase in crop yield as, though the plants are larger and healthier, there isn't as much space to grow on in comparison to outside soil. And yet there is so much space in the cavern and room for improvement.

>>1721120
I don't think we can do either right now since we need steel for robots and raising energy consumption will require more solar farms, which needs even more resources spent.

>>1721186
those are the same thing. The second is just expanding on what the first is in more detail.

>>1721179
I'm gonna wait until QM confirms the mindwipe is 100%.

>>1721148
Normal greenhouses.

>>1721208
Not really OP made three choices.
Glass Houses
Indoor Farming using the Cavern
Last. turning the above ground farms into underground farms

>>1721121

>Capturing legionairs to harvest their brains.

Eh, there are worse things. I could see this working. Perhaps have some capture robots armed with non lethal stun weapons to get around the [legion doesnt surrender problem]

>>1721235
Who said legionaries? I was talking about using the fact we have aircraft to allow us to establish a facility behind their lines to kidnap civilians and extract brains for processing which we would then transport via our Scoutship.

I mean, I considered military as well but the simple risks of getting our shit wrecked outweighed the lesser moral problems.

>>1721212
Yes it is. If you want it to be.

>>1721253
no targeting civilians. no mistreating prisoners of war.

>>1721253
I mean, ill support capturing/debraining their millitary if we can make it viable, but going after civilians doesnt sit well with me.

>>1721270
CHANGING MY VOTE TO GREEN HOUSES

Three votes OP

>>1721228
>Indoor Farming using the Cavern
>Last. turning the above ground farms into underground farms
Those are one and the same

>>1721253
I'm... actually fine with using Legion Civilians, a good punishment for rebellious individuals when we take Legion territory.
>>1721270
>If you want it to be.
What does it mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk

>>1721280
Supporting.

We can expand to indoor farming later.

>>1721298
three for glass houses
>>1721280
>>1721220
>>1721173

>>1721301
Oh, ill support it if its a criminal punishment once weve taken over.

>>1721274
>>1721275
You are killing someone either way, what difference does it make if they bear arms for their nation?

>>1721301
Yeah, it works for anyone we might put on death row or such.

>>1721148
Indoor farms, can't increase water consumption and having underground farms means we can use the above ground for more solar farms. Just gotta wait to get more steel.

>>1721328
I am absolutely against harvesting brains from anyone, soldier or civilian.

>>1721329
We can also begin expanding the caverns with some tunnels and truly become NOD.

>>1721328
If they are millitary opponents, then they have already accepted the chance of death and are actively hostile. I have no qualms with killing them.

Civilians havent done that, and just want to live their life. The minute they take up arms and act against us, they stop being civilians...

Thats just my take on it.

>>1721342
What is NOD?

>>1721363
command and conquer tiberium faction.

They're a bunch of religious zealots following an immortal man named Kain and they generally use very subversive tactics like drills, flamethrowers and suicide bombing.

>>1721363
http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Nod

>>1721390
>>1721380


Ah, ive never played command and conquer. That explains my ignorance.

>>1721415
yeah we seem to be veering pretty heavy towards being Kane on occasion. Will have to see how that works out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r93c6qN9XyY

>>1721341
Then we can't make a ZAX and thus we can't run our factory at anywhere near full efficiency and we doom five AI's to non-existence for eternity. Not to mention making our airforce a far less effective system.

>>1721348
Except all of the Legion would take up arms if Ceaser asked them to and they do actively work against us by supplying him with recruits, food, arms and medicine. The man in the factory that makes the bullet that kills the soldier is no less guilty than the man who fires the gun when you are in a state of total war which I would argue we are.

Still I can respect your point.

writing

>>1721442

>Still I can respect your point.
I appreciate it. If you come up with any plans to debrain their millitary ill support you.

>>1721442
There has to be other ways. We shouldn't throw morals out for the sake of efficiency.

The old US had ZAX's that worked without brains, and we can use willing oficer brains to coordinate drone swarms in an acceptable enough manner. Hell, find ARES and figure out how to replicate her brain, she;s pretty much a synth offshoot.

We shouldn't take the easy way instead of the right way.

>>1721484
>>1721442
We just need 6 brains, we should make most of the ZAX first, also think of what the companions we have will think of us depending on our decisions.

So be careful, since our companions always get pissed about what we do. So a legion solider would be better than a civilian

>>1721484
Eh, I guess we could look into raiding supply convoys and debraining their guards and shit.

>>1721492
>The old US had ZAX's that worked without brains
This is a better ZAX design provided by RND and I would point out that even the pre-war design would take insane resources to create since we need to use fissile material to produce every high quality processor and such.

>we can use willing officer brains to coordinate drone swarms in an acceptable enough manner.
"Acceptable enough"? You are willing to risk the success of our military actions and the survival of our troops and our allies? Also it's been stated by OP that we will struggle to control large swarms of drones or to process the data from scouts without something like I have advised or a very expensive electronic equivalent.

>Hell, find ARES and figure out how to replicate her brain, she;s pretty much a synth offshoot.
Yes and most likely expensive as shit to produce.

>>1721512
I thought it was five brains and I would point out that most of our follower's hate the Legion with a passion and that the use of civilians ain't exactly going to cause them massive pain or anything probably.

>>1721617
However it takes resources that don't involve the mistreatment of human beings, and we can get resources if we need it. We won't be expanding as fast, but I feel that's acceptable to not compromise morality.

We just need the one zax and our drone swarm would be running at peak efficiency.

Expensive in resources that are not people's flesh and lives.

The followers won't just accept targeting civilians. They're doctors and shit. A civilian is a civilian, no matter the faction.

>>1721662
>However it takes resources that don't involve the mistreatment of human beings
You say that as if we are going to extract the brains while they are awake and in a manner most painful.

>we can get resources if we need it. We won't be expanding as fast, but I feel that's acceptable to not compromise morality.
To not compromise YOUR morality you mean.

>We just need the one zax and our drone swarm would be running at peak efficiency.
You can't assume that one ZAX will be sufficient for all of our future drone swarms and more importantly, it doesn't solve the issue of communications reliability and the fact we would always need a connection to Big mt where as mine does.

>Expensive in resources that are not people's flesh and lives.
Which shall come at a cost to that very resource since we won't be able to make use of the replicators for useful shit.

>The followers won't just accept targeting civilians. They're doctors and shit. A civilian is a civilian, no matter the faction.
And? I doubt any of them took the Hippocratic oath and more importantly they are aware of what the Legion has done. I fail to see why they'd just decide that kidnapping and cutting out a person's brain and clearing it of everything is a thing to get quite so pissy over.

Especially considering they should be able to tell what the alternatives mean. Less resources to assist the people they know and love for example.

...... Can we scan a brain with the replicator?

>>1721734
I considered it but that still requires the killing of five Brain's consciousnesses and consumes valuable resources.

>>1721714
You're suggesting kidnapping civilians and extracting their brains, and the brains of prisoners of war. Even if their sound asleep, that's just murder. It's not war.

My morality and common western morality

If we need brains so bad we can use the brains of volunteers. We can build more TACT commands using experienced brains rather than blank slates.

But we can get those sort of resources with some effort. The divide, raids on the MLA, loot from attacking the legion. Once we have the forces built up to start being aggressive we're going to start taking our enemies' resources.

You really think the likes of Arcade and Farkas are going t just go, "Well they lived on the wrong side of the border, fuck em"? We're dealing with civilians, and the followers would rather everyone had enough than we had plenty.

>>1721745
what resources? a brain is mostly carbon and water. That's an easy print job, low resources. Slightly more complex than a salsibury steak.

And it's not killing 5 brain consciousnesses, as they were never conscious in the first place.

>>1721771
We should just try what you're saying because I want to see if it can work

>>1721787
Qm you targeted my losing post again.

>>1720025 was the winner, and didn't have a train. Im sorry man.

>>1721755
>You're suggesting kidnapping civilians and extracting their brains, and the brains of prisoners of war. Even if their sound asleep, that's just murder. It's not war.
Mate war is murder. It's state sanctioned murder on an industrial scale. Don't be a idiot.

>My morality and common western morality
Didn't realise that you were the representative of the entire west on it's moral values.

>we need brains so bad we can use the brains of volunteers.
I assume you don't mean to build the ZAX since it effectively kills them.

>We can build more TACT commands using experienced brains rather than blank slates.
That was considered. The sheer number of brains needed is greater than what our population can reasonably sustain and more importantly it leaves us unable to expand our air force.

>But we can get those sort of resources with some effort.
Rather than the near-no effort solution I have provided? Especially since I am offering something that can be easily expanded as needed.

>You really think the likes of Arcade and Farkas are going t just go, "Well they lived on the wrong side of the border, fuck em"?
You are horribly misrepresenting my view on this matter. My point is that they are aware that, no matter if it is intentional or otherwise, they are supporting the Legion's efforts to conquest and enslave their way through the NCR and the US in general by providing an economic, industrial, agricultural and recruiting supply to them. Thus they are a part of the war no matter how much or how little they intend to do so.

>We're dealing with civilians, and the followers would rather everyone had enough than we had plenty.
What?

>>1721771
>what resources? a brain is mostly carbon and water. That's an easy print job, low resources. Slightly more complex than a salsibury steak.
Ignoring the fact that a human brain is a incredibly complex and precise electrical-chemical machine that we want to replicate entirely, there is the fact that it contains amounts of almost every element you can think of. Plus it was stated that cloning a human brain doesn't work and thus I am able to imagine that replicating won't work either.

>And it's not killing 5 brain consciousnesses, as they were never conscious in the first place.
No, they are. From the instant of birth seemingly our brain was at least somewhat aware and so these would be too.

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>>1721815
Goshdarnit. Thanks.

>>1720025
>Civ: Robot Production (Research) - >>1720483
Hazard Bastion Bots

A heavier Hazard Version of the Bastion Robot is developed. This one is loaded with extra armor designed to make the robots vitals and joins as sealed as possible to reduce damage from the cloud, as well as other hazards that may be present in the Divide.

Its extra armor adds HP points to it and Damage Resistance, however it also makes it heavier and more expensive as a result, and somewhat slower.

10 of these large sized robots are passively built by the factory, the new designs easily dwarfing even the big MKV Hazard Securitrons. In all respects, with such extra armor they are definitively as strong as a Light Tank!

>>1721926
Just make sure you keep the train post for later

>>1721926
>In all respects, with such extra armor they are definitively as strong as a Light Tank!

Yeah these are definitely a different role from the standard model now.

>>1721926
that thing looks kick ass. I wonder what the NCR will think, if/when they see them in action.

>>1721938
Yeah man, you don't want to have to type up all that again.

>>1721818
There's a difference between fighting for a just cause and sensless killing. The legion and MLA are lead by terrible people pushing terrible ideology. It is a moral prerogative to put a stop to them. It is not a moral prerogative to take non-combatants and kill them for their brain.

On the instance of killing civilians and POWs I agree with most of the west, in not doing so. Because it's a warcrime.

We can't be sure about that. And we can automate some processes so we can minimize the necessary brain power. Have a bunch of scripts in each plane that can be triggered as needed by the command TACT.

It's no effort, but it's also morally reprehensible. If we have to put in more effort to not comit war crimes, then so be it.

And so, as civilians, they should be conquered but still treated fairly. If they aren't fighting they shouldn't be killed.

Followers are a charitable organizations. They support giving up stuff there are too much off for those who don't have enough.

replicators build stuff atom by atom anyways. a complex thing just means it switches what it's putting down more. The cost would mostly be material.

Our brain was born when we were born. It had decades of experience as a consciousness before it was removed. These brains would be born when they come out of the replicator.

>>1721942
>>1721941
>In all respects, with such extra armor they are definitively as strong as a Light Tank!

So I guess the Bastion will act like our light
Tanks,

The MKV hazard securitrons will be our heavy robot infantry

>>1720025
>Research: Cloning by Gecko's and various other animals produce eggs and exist in large states post-war. Capture and rear these like Chickens.
Gecko Eggs, like most reptiles, typically come out fertilized. By the time they reach a solid hard shell and leave the body, a small fetus is already growing. Thus they are rather nasty. Even Willow, for her expertise on Gecko cookin', didn't recommend biting into one.

Death Claws are known to be an exception in that their eggs, when dropped, don't develop a fetus as quickly and thus make tasty omeletes.

Would you like to capture and breed a DeathClaw? Should be some around and you are more than strong enough.

Otherwise your scientists will attempt something else.

>>1721960
More like Bastions are very maneuverable robots.
Hazard Bastions are light tanks.
Regular and hazard Securitrons are our Mr Potato head robot.

>>1721971
CHOOSE

>>1721971
Get some Deathclaws
It will also make the area around us safer, for our troops and the people.

But what do the scientists have to say first?

>>1721971
Geckos, no way we have the proper facilities to keep a Deathclaw contained.

>>1721978
>But what do the scientists have to say first?

>Arcade
"It would be great if we could find a gene sample of an Old World chicken somewhere. If these animals were best suited for human consumption, reviving them would be ideal. As would reviving other animals the cow, the sheep, or the goat.

Though a Brahmin with one head is very strange, most farmers cull any such mutation. But I'd imagine the old world folk would have thought the same of our Brahmin.

The hard part is looking to see if we have any such samples in BigMT."

>>1721998
What do the think tank have to say? I know they arent very reliable, but didnt klein have acess to old world Gene stock?

>>1721987
Anon, how about in the future, we give the DeathClaw that juice (FEV) to make them smart. That way we can have intelligent deathclaw

>>1721998
Yeah, have our hero go looking through BigMT, bring along the people from before, and Arcade if he wants

>>1722019
>Anon, how about in the future, we give the DeathClaw that juice (FEV) to make them smart. That way we can have intelligent deathclaw
That is a bad idea if we keep using their eggs.
I also don't know how to feel about intelligent nonhumans that can reproduce.

>>1722018
>Klein
"CHICKENS? COWS? SHEEP? DO YOU THINK THIS IS A FARM?"

>Borous
"These common barnyard animals are boring! Hmmm, but I may have them around here somewhere. Well, I may also have mixed them up a bit, make them more interesting, in the name of Science!"

Dr Borous thinks he has chickens, cows, and certain other subjects although they may be. . .changed a bit. You'll have to actually clone one to see what happens.

>>1721998
lets look through the banks. We don't have the resources to breed death claws

>>1722019
We need to find the intelligent deathclaws who joined the MLA and get them to turncoat.

>>1722027
I changed my vote to go look through BigMT, since that what the other anons wanted as well.


>"These common barnyard animals are boring! Hmmm, but I may have them around here somewhere. Well, I may also have mixed them up a bit, make them more interesting, in the name of Science!"
>Dr Borous thinks he has chickens, cows, and certain other subjects although they may be. . .changed a bit. You'll have to actually clone one to see what happens.

>>1722038
Go exploring

>>1722040
>>1722027
Alright anons. I want to explore BigMT for now.

>>1722038

I love how hammy Klein is
Lets clone his stuff and see what we end up with.

>>1722038
Lets clone one of each. Maybe he made them so they grow lots of meat real fast.

>>1722069
>>1722047
We kind of have to go looking in BigMT if I'm reading the post right.

It'll been cool what we come up with

>>1722077
And get a cloning vats up, i guess.

>>1722044
>>1722019
Sure enough you search, and the only samples you find are actually Dr. Borous spliced examples. But he didn't leave any clean ones unfortunately.

Another oddity is that he made it so that the files detailing them would only unlock once they were cloned. Though he doesn't remember why. Then again maybe Dr. Mobius did that.

>Would you like to try and clone them?

>>1722081
I feel a fight coming.

>>1722081
yes.

>>1722081

Clone them all. Have a squad of soldiers in case this goes to shit.

>>1721955
>There's a difference between fighting for a just cause and senseless killing.
Not really. It's just a point of view.

>The legion and MLA are lead by terrible people pushing terrible ideology. It is a moral prerogative to put a stop to them.
A matter of perspective. Also no one wants us to be world moral police.

>It is not a moral prerogative to take non-combatants and kill them for their brain.
No such thing as a non-combatant in these wars. Plus some systems of morality state the thing that minimises suffering for the most people is best. I can be certain my system reduces the suffering of our people more quickly and effectively than yours.

>On the instance of killing civilians and POWs I agree with most of the west, in not doing so.
No such thing as civilian in this case, as we are talking about a total war where both sides seek to destroy the culture of the other and your opponent doesn't take prisoners except to enslave or torture.

>Because it's a war-crime.
"Das ist verboten" logic. What next? Is what I have suggested "haram"?

>We can't be sure about that. And we can automate some processes so we can minimise the necessary brain power. Have a bunch of scripts in each plane that can be triggered as needed by the command TACT.
Nope. It was stated by OP.

>It's no effort, but it's also morally reprehensible. If we have to put in more effort to not commit war crimes, then so be it.
Again, only "morally reprehensible" to you and once again you fall back on the logic of it being a war crime.

>And so, as civilians, they should be conquered but still treated fairly.
And when they are conquered they will fight us every step of the way and I would point out that this is far less damaging than some of the shit we did in WW 2 to Germany: firebombing Dresden for example which they entirely deserved.

>If they aren't fighting they shouldn't be killed.
You don't understand the enemy we face do you? They aren't all manning the guns but they make the shells, they make the uniforms, they make the rations and they have the children who march against us.

>Followers are a charitable organisation. They support giving up stuff there are too much off for those who don't have enough.
Which is lovely but I fail to remember when "Feed the world" started giving ISIS rations and thus why the Follower's would suddenly want to support the Legion.

>replicators build stuff atom by atom anyways. a complex thing just means it switches what it's putting down more. The cost would mostly be material.
Stopping and starting would increase production time, energy cost and possibly may even cause problems with the end product.

>Our brain was born when we were born. It had decades of experience as a consciousness before it was removed. These brains would be born when they come out of the replicator.
Aye and they would still be as conscious as a new born child but you don't recommend taking as many of those as needed to find these Brains.

>>1722100
>imply the spliced animals don't have force field generators on them

>>1722081
Clone them all but one at a time

>>1722116
Sure there is. Fighting Nazi's is a just cause, and should be applaided. The holocauset is sensles killing and should be condemned. Motive is a factor in these things. Or on a smaller level, killing a guy before he kills someone is just, killing a random bloke is senseless.

We want to rule the world, but We can work with factions that agree with us morally, like the mormons, and assimilate them peacefully when the time comes.

There are always non-combatants. It's not like these civilians have a choice to not support the war. Your system does not reduce total suffering, it reduces our suffering. It's still causes suffering outside our borders. There are also schools of thought where doing things that are correct on the individual level is the correct thing to do on the social level.

As we conquer territory, they won't be supplying the armies, but also won't have their brains sucked out of their skulls. If they don't fight us, they are civilians and non-combatants and should be treated as such.

Equating "Haram" and "war crime" is completely disingenuous. War Crimes are violations of human rights, while Haram is a cultural violation.

Fine, we would need brains.

Violation of human rights is an acceptable fall back. Some things should not be done in moral society.

You don't know that. In ancient rome, people venerated their emperors. They still ended up being conquered without the civilians fighting to the last man. The social contract is the soldiers fight and the citizens support. And what you suggest is stooping to the Legion's level, killing them because they are "profligates" who go against your wat. If we are to be better men than than the legion we should act as such.

I understand how war economies work. That does not mean senseless killing of civilians who would no longer be contributing to the war economy. Once they are prisoners they won't be making uniforms, or rations, or sending their children to become soldiers.

Isis is a marauding band of barbarians. They have no civilians. The legion does, and they are not guilty of the crimes of their regime.

The thing makes meat, brain is a meat. Infact It made a rat that lived once its heart was started. It can make brain tissue just fine.

It wouldn;t have conscious thought. Not experiences or memories. Babies experience things in the womb, and so are not the premade blank slates that would be acceptable.

>>1722262
>Sure there is. Fighting Nazi's is a just cause, and should be applaided. The holocauset is sensles killing and should be condemned.

>Fighting Nazi's is a just cause
No it isn't

The holocaust never happened. Don't bring the Nazis in a argument. It just derail the whole thing.

>>1722262
>Sure there is. Fighting Nazi's is a just cause, and should be applauded. The holocaust is senseless killing and should be condemned. Motive is a factor in these things.
And yet again you choose an example where perspective is a important factor. Seeing as a Nazi would think those killings were justified.

>Or on a smaller level, killing a guy before he kills someone is just, killing a random bloke is senseless.
These aren't random people though. They are employed adults in another nation state we are at war with.

>We want to rule the world, but We can work with factions that agree with us morally, like the Mormons, and assimilate them peacefully when the time comes.
Then why are you protecting the Legion and MLA, two groups we can't absorb reliably or easily?

>There are always non-combatants. It's not like these civilians have a choice to not support the war.
They do. Seeing as they could choose to leave the Legion's lands or to fight against Ceaser or to do any other number of things.

>Your system does not reduce total suffering, it reduces our suffering. It's still causes suffering outside our borders.
How does it cause suffering? The people die painlessly and instantly and even ignoring that, you can't disprove that their death is actually a more painless end than their continued existence. Also, why should I really give a damn about how much the people of the Legion suffer seeing as I have been recommending the use of chemical, biological and other such weapons against them, their crops and their animals for quite some time.

>There are also schools of thought where doing things that are correct on the individual level is the correct thing to do on the social level.
Yes but my point is that yours isn't the only system of morality and that mine is entirely justified.

>As we conquer territory, they won't be supplying the armies, but also won't have their brains sucked out of their skulls. If they don't fight us, they are civilians and non-combatants and should be treated as such.
But they are supplying those armies right now, will most likely resist when we occupy and most importantly, aren't an easily absorbable group of people.

>Equating "Haram" and "war crime" is completely disingenuous.
Not really, I am arguing that you are using it as a term to shut down arguments you can't counter. Also you ignored the bit in German which might have made this clearer to you.

>War Crimes are violations of human rights,
And in this time period there are no established human rights and they aren't violations of human rights. They are acts which all signatory states agree to not do in war because the benefits aren't worth the risk of them being used against them.

>while Haram is a cultural violation.
Which is the argument that you use currently seeing as your entire system of thought is that this goes against "western" morality which is inherently tied to our culture.

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>>1722311
Hoh boy, thats some quality bait.

>>1722424
>Fine, we would need brains.
Yep and mine is the only reliable, cheap, easy and "safe" way to get them that doesn't harm our population.

>Violation of human rights is an acceptable fall back.
Not really. Since we are discussing why we shouldn't do it and human rights haven't existed as a established, detailed concept for centuries and even then nations ignore or flaunt them all the time.

>Some things should not be done in moral society.
Again morality is relative so that statement carries no meaning since some things are accepted and unaccepted in different cultures.

>In ancient Rome, people venerated their emperors.
Depends on the Emperors.

>They still ended up being conquered without the civilians fighting to the last man.
That might have something to do with the enemies they were facing raping, killing, pillaging or otherwise eliminating them. Also you can't state that since we lack any detailed reports from the fall of Rome or any other major Roman city.

>The social contract is the soldiers fight and the citizens support.
Yes, which is why we should kill or capture the civilians, to prevent them supporting the soldiers.

>And what you suggest is stooping to the Legion's level, killing them because they are "profligates" who go against your way.
Wow, way to misrepresent my position. I am saying that their mere existence is a threat to our own since they are constantly reinforcing the Legion's military strength and providing it with a way to grow. Not to mention a complete hate of technology and the outsider means that they are unable to assimilate.

>If we are to be better men than than the legion we should act as such.
Of course because your moral system is "better" than everyone else's.

>I understand how war economies work. That does not mean senseless killing of civilians who would no longer be contributing to the war economy.
Yes but your line was that if they weren't fighting we shouldn't kill them. I showed how this limits our war effort and thus how your position was flawed.

>Once they are prisoners they won't be making uniforms, or rations, or sending their children to become soldiers.
Of course we wouldn't kill prisoners but I don't plan on taking any since their culture is so different and their upkeep would almost certainly outweigh any use we might get from them.

>>1722466
>Isis is a marauding band of barbarians. They have no civilians.
ISIS has civilians. To be exact, however many wives have left the west to join them and never returned along with any children or families of their fighters.

>The legion does, and they are not guilty of the crimes of their regime.
Yes they are. They support their leader. They send their children off to die for him. They hate those they are told to and obey the laws they are given.

>The thing makes meat, brain is a meat. In fact It made a rat that lived once its heart was started. It can make brain tissue just fine.
A rat is a fairly simple thing. A human brain is not. Especially a good one I would imagine.

>It wouldn't have conscious thought. Not experiences or memories.
Can you state that for absolute certain to such a degree as to throw away five lives potentially? Because you have been given no more information on this subject matter than me and I can state that it seems likely and logical.

>Babies experience things in the womb, and so are not the premade blank slates that would be acceptable.
But we can easily clear their memories and they need to be wiped either way since we don't have a blank brain for the replicators and thus would need to clear at least one brain either way.

I know Qm said cloning a brain doesnt work because you can only clone the tissue, and not the life experience.

But what if we cloned the brain, and put it through a VR - Education and sped it up?

>>1722525
We don't need the experience if we're just taking cleansed brains anyways, so it actually works out for us.

But he said it was the experiences that made it grow right anyways.

>>1722424
Moral absolutism exists in Fallout in the form of Karma- According to fallout rules, Nazi killing is morally right.

They have no real other choice. They are afraid, or indoctrinated, and know no other way of life. A choice made without the necessary information is a non-choice. North Korea is Evil, but the people living their lives are not, because they know nothing else.

I'm not protecting the MLA and Legion. I'm protecting people. Because they are people who may be convinced to join our way of life.

See above- They don't know what they are doing is wrong, which grants leniency.

Unnecesary killing is raking away from potential. It causes suffering in the people they were close to and loved.

Yours is also not the only school of morality and can just as well not be justified.

If they are in custody, they aren't helping anyone, and so, once we have them in a position where we can debrain them, there is no reason to debrain them, if your argument is they are helping our enemies.

Morality absolutely has weight in arguments. It's why we as a society have progressed. The Civil rights movement was argued based on morality, as was suffrage. War crimes are based on morality, and so are not just "a term to shut down arguments you can't counter"

Just because human rights don't exist, doesn't mean that they shouldn't. There is always a first for everything and there is no reason it can't be us.

Western morality is also tied to the culture we're trying to rebirth. Following it is not an invalid expectation.

>>1722466
Your way is also cruel and unnecesary.

just because human rights don't exist, doesn't mean they should not. We should be striving to improve, not accepting how things are.

moral society according to american morals we are trying to be a better example of.

We can state the people didn't all die to defend their emperor based on the fact the towns were not rendered barrens and still exist. Rome fell, but there were still people living after.

Or we can kill the soldiers as neccessary, and not target individuals of non-importance.

Their existance is only a threat becasause you want them to be a threat. the legion citizens can be swayed- they are not robots. If they think it's in their best interest to cooperate, they will.

My moral system is closely tied to the modern western one. We're trying to be a new America, a modern western society.

Just because it limits our war effort does not make it an inherently flawed position. Morals have argumentative weight.I can just as easily say Your stance revolves around needless killing, and so is a flawed position.

So your solution is genocide. So you're killing them because they go against your way. How exactly did I misinterpret your position before?

>>1722470
Fine. ISIS has civilians. But that doesn't mean we're targeting their civilians. We target their leaders and military positions.

They know no other life. We cannot find them guilty of something if they do not know they have another choice.

As a whole, a rat is not vastly more simple than a rat sized brain. Muscle cells and blood cells and brain cells all have similiar levels of atomic complexity. Also we made rat brain in the rat. rat brain and human brains aren't that different in composition.

As long as the brain is not made conscious, i.e. put in a tank or skull, it does not have conscious thought. It has the potential, but not necessarily.

we can clear any brain, so i don't know what your baby argument is. We scan a good quality brain. We replicate it, and without going through the awakening process, cleanse the unawakened brain. We now have a fresh brain that was never capable of conscious thought and can scan that.

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>>1721120
QM, I have some questions for you. Why does the use of greenhouses (with water reclimation) increase our water usage? I understand that if we build tall then the power usage goes up (though it can also be mitigated as I understand) but as far as ive read the use of greenhouses actually cuts down on water usage. Furthermore, it also helps pack plants more densly than open-air farming, meaning more plants per square foot. This is done through the root zones of the plants being tighter together, meaning less water is wasted. With drip-irrigation, water reclamation and improved lighting for the plants that dont get natural light the greenhouse should prove more than capable of reducing the amount of water used per plant, as well as improve crop yields.

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S1877705816323207/1-s2.0-S1877705816323207-main.pdf?_tid=cc095b4c-74ed-11e7-a9e8-00000aab0f27&acdnat=1501395214_7798d6011d3d6d517a8095582babf9bb

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/74ac/6a9733f986690e77626978fdc31759627707.pdf

We dont even have to do all that much to achieve respectable results. Although a fully closed system would reduce water loss further, simple improvements like pic related can already have a noticeable effect. One study found that the evaporation in greenhouse plants to be as much as 30% lower. Add to that water reclamation and smart building and we can have quite a difference in water consumption.

>>1722858
The problem is twofold: Heat Control and Bigger Crop Yields.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/74ac/6a9733f986690e77626978fdc31759627707.pdf

In the desert, you have the sun constantly shining down on you cooking everything in its path. This is bad for humans and plants alike, even cacti, and you are very close to Death Valley itself.

With a greenhouse, especially here in the desert, adequate temperature control is best achieved by humidification of the air and cycling of ventilation. Regular air conditioners would just dry the air and also shock the plants. Thus with the temperature under control and constant, as well as night time light as an option, plants can grow year round more consistently.

This means more crops, but also more water usage from the ventilation + more crops.

Greenhouses are poor implements for water reclamation. Indoor farming is superior for that purpose because the temperature isn't so hot and true air moisture reclamation can be achieved.

Of note is that, to a point, yes you can pack more plants more densely than open air farming but at the same time for certain crops this is inefficient. Most notably wheat (although, you do not grow wheat and you do not eat fresh bread) has less crop returns when packed densely than when outdoors. As well plants packed closely together can't grow as large in the case of say, watermellon or barrel cacti.

Ostensibly, Janith Kindergarten also notes the lack of Bread and wonders if you could research on some expanded Salient Green.

To note, your followers and agrobots are experienced enough that your outdoor farms already use drip irrigation.

>>1723166
Can we build more geothermal-breeder hybrid plants down by the lava lakes?

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>>1722081
Your scientists build a very tiny, basic cloning lab under directions from yourself working with Dr. Borous. You'll need a construction action for anything bigger and substantial.

A month in however, and you have your first cloned thing.

>You
[This is a chicken?]

>Dr. Borous
"No! This is. . .Gallasaurus Rex!

I was once contracted by a wealthy man who wished to spare no expense in the return of the Dinosaur!

Unfortunately, we didn't have any dinosaur DNA samples.

So I did the next best thing. The Chicken is the descendant of the Dinosaur, and I unlocked its ancestral genes within itself!"

Now that the files are unlocked.
It eats meat, and has hunting instincts, as well as incredible jump capacity. However, as it turns out, its ability to lay eggs has increased considerably without harming taste. And its meat taste is evidently not disturbed either. If not enhanced.

Supposedly it can grow to enormousness sizes, akin to Deathclaws, if its pen and food source is big enough.

You'll need to build a cloning lab proper and then clone a few more of these to see just how good they are for eating.

>>1723170
Unfortunately not, this thing is highly efficient as is. The ancients knew what they were doing.

She was a nigger. A real tough nigger from Vault 37. And she knew how to suck a mean cock.

She liked wigger ghoul cock from Vault 41 the best. The way the scabs came off in her mouth tittilated her. The scab ooze - like waterfalls of puss right into her mouth.

>>1723181
Fascinating

>>1723176
Can we genetically further engineer it so that it never grows bigger than a regular chicken? I forsee a catastrophe if we decide to breed them for farming.

>>1723184
Wait, we need to feed it meat... Damn. That's off the table unless we can turn them into herbivore

>>1723179
Does the plant we have produce fissile materials every turn?

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>>1723184
You will likely have to develop a proper genetic modification laboratory or upgrade some of Dr. Borous facilities.

---

As for the Cow. Well, you have never seen a cow before. You have seen 1 headed brahmin, but this is nothing like that.

>Dr. Borous
"This is 'Super Cow'. And it is boring!

All it is is just the byproduct of Selective Breeding! To create cows which have massive amounts of meat on their bones and give extra milk.

I could never figure out what to do with them. I mostly fed them to other, more interesting animals, like good old gabe."

You wonder what the meat and milk tastes like. You also suspect, since these are old world creatures, it may be vulnerable to radiation.

>>1723186
No, doesn't work that way. The Breeder Reactor sustains itself mostly using the generated fissile material as an efficient means to extract energy from it.

>Arcade
"You know, it would be great if we found a Uranium mine somewhere if fissile material is always going to be an issue. If history records are true America was rich in uranium veins before the war."

>Jacob Miles
"We could stand to research deep earth surveying

>>1723191
Op, does anyone have idea what we could do in reasonable short time to gain seperate research action? I remember brain saying something about splicing lobotomites to gain research brains or something.

>>1723188
Do we need to develop closed farm for these cows now?

Or can we just build cloning labs and breed them for meat that way?

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>>1720025
As you prepare to take your family on another Vacation to the NCR, this time weather permitting, you consider exactly how to move them.

Tony Gam speaks up.

"Boss, I've been working on something you might like."

Oh, that will work well.

>>1723218
Developing brain splicing techniques will allow you to build more advanced computers, as well as possibly modify Brains/People to be super smart.

Or you could steal/build a Zax and devote it to research. You currently have the blueprints to build a Zax thanks to RND, but his design involves Brains.

Of course, you could also just get way more scientists from somewhere.

>>1723222
>Do we need to develop closed farm for these cows now?
>Or can we just build cloning labs and breed them for meat that way?
Your scientist recommend building the cloning facility, then raising them in a closed farm.

>>1723244
Can we get more info on brain splicing development? What do we need for that? Just research or do we need to build a special lab or get specific materials?

How many slaves from MLA could we buy per turn with our personal bottle cap supply?

>>1723248
What do we need for cloning facility? Any specifial equipment or materials we need to go out and get?

>>1723252
>Can we get more info on brain splicing development?
Development of advanced cybernetic brains, modified with electronics, within robots or computers for superior analysis and critical thinking capabilities on top of high performance processors.

>What do we need for that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hZ5GDYPqjk

>Just research or do we need to build a special lab or get specific materials?
You have the scientific background here for Brain research and the technological knowhow. Actually you can just build a Brain lab now without any special requirements.

>How many slaves from MLA could we buy per turn with our personal bottle cap supply?
A lot. More than you can fill in your ship at a time.

However, your problem may be more than just money.

>>1723254
Thankfully you have the means to build it now.

>>1723258
When we finally get these labs up and running, are we still limited in our research actions? Or would we have one specialized research action per lab?

>>1723266
The good news is with enough development of a Brain lab, you will get a free Brain research action since BigMT specializes in Brains.

Then using that puts you on the pathway to Zax research, which will lead to the free research action.

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>>1723239
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxn1sqAQ-c

The Open Road is before you and your mighty vehicle, and to boot you are able to bring alongside troops with your supply trucks for some added safety.

You alert the NCR of your arrival and convoy and they give you the greenlight.

>CHOOSE
Where do you want to go?

>NCR Capital
>Other?

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>>1723166
It seems to me there has been a misunderstanding. What I propose is not the usual greenhouses but large buildings with controlled atmosphere (this includes humidity and temperature, amount of light, nutrients and so on). This can be achieved by controlling the water flow to plants as well as the contents in the water. The air conditions can be controlled not by your average AC but cooler systems (think fridge, cools but the air stays the same/doesnt blow). This would mean that its not wood and glass hut but a thought-through building with the necessary rooms to uphold this environment. The crop density can be fine tuned to the plants we use.

Think pic related.

>>1723291
Effectively making an indoor farm, but utilizing the extra sunlight provided by the desert.

Also, what towns are on the way? How many can we visit and still be there on time? Anything worth looking at for tech?

>>1723289
Is centennial this turn or next?

>>1723274
>

Then using that puts you on the pathway to Zax research, which will lead to the free research action.


Or brain splicing research to get use out of lobotomites and improve brains we already have, right?

>>1723298
Technically in between. This is an abstracted time frame to allow you to do any business or perform any tasks you want. At the end of it you'll attend the actual ceremony (if thats your goal) at the capital.

>>1723299
Well its a Brain research action, so anything involving brains can be performed.

>>1723303
Improving brain implants?

>>1723303
Yes our goal is to attend the ceremony.

I Say we go to New reno to buy clothes, gifts and jewelry for our wives and children to wear. Maybe some gifts for officials at the capital. Spend some time there with familia then go 4 days early the ceremony to the capital, we'll have time to prepare and spend time with the family at their capital.

>>1723316
1 for this

>>1723289
Where can we visit and still make the ceremony?

Could we swing by San Fran?

>>1723319
Everywhere really. You gave yourself ample time. Just don't try to do anything crazy.

>>1723239
Wow, that's great Tony. Did he just make a luxury travel bus for us?

How is Tony getting used to his new life? What does he do? Does he have any requests for us?

>>1723316
Yeah, let's do this

>>1723323
>How is Tony getting used to his new life?
Fairly well. He has his purpose again, though he does miss the open road and has some wanderlust.

>What does he do?
Drive trucks for Jacob and you mostly. And drink. And help make repairs.

Gonna be driving somewhere. Don't forget to vote!

>>1723291
Well yeah at that point you are proposing Indoor farms and all the stuff that comes with it.

Is that what you are saying? The followers say that it would be best to build those underground. The cost for lighting easily offset by the decrease in need for cooling from the sun.

>>1722665
>Moral absolutism exists in Fallout in the form of Karma-
Oh that system which was removed from 4? That was, if you play the developer's mod, far less prevalent in FO 3:NV?

Also I'd point out that the Karma system isn't moral absolutism, it's just a single rendering of the morality of your actions.

>According to fallout rules, Nazi killing is morally right.
Actually no, seeing as you never encounter a Nazi in the game that is an impossible statement to make.

>They have no real other choice. They are afraid, or indoctrinated, and know no other way of life.
Yep but that is no reason to spare them when their continued existence is a threat to our own.

>A choice made without the necessary information is a non-choice.
And they have the needed information. Seeing as Ceaser isn't lying to them about more or less anything.

>North Korea is Evil, but the people living their lives are not, because they know nothing else.
True but if you told me we were going to go to war with them and kidnapping and killing a few hundred of their civilians would greatly ease the war for our side, I'd probably say that it was a justified action.

>They don't know what they are doing is wrong, which grants leniency.
Yet again you act as if what they are doing or will do is wrong. It' entirely justified to be frank but that doesn't mean we should be any more lenient on them.

>Unnecessary killing is raking away from potential.
Under the assumption any of them had more potential than to bear a knife, grow crops or make weapons, I would suppose yes but once again you brand my suggested action as a unnecessary killing.

>It causes suffering in the people they were close to and loved.
Okay we kidnap those people too. Seriously it's a non-issue, just kidnap them in groups as we need more brains which for my system we can really always justify a need for more.

>Yours is also not the only school of morality and can just as well not be justified.
True but my point is that mine isn't some strange idea or a repugnant extreme. It is a concept that many would find acceptable or even advisable.

>>1723335
>If they are in custody, they aren't helping anyone, and so, once we have them in a position where we can debrain them, there is no reason to debrain them, if your argument is they are helping our enemies.
I don't plan on taking Legion prisoners except for the youngest children. As I have previously explained. As it would negatively effect our war effort and the resources available to us for our various goals unless we were to get something out of it which outweighs the cost of maintaining a highly secure prison system and guards. Seeing as they're not highly educated, this is nearly impossible for them to provide.

>Morality absolutely has weight in arguments.
No, it only has weight when all else has failed. As morality is a pointless thing when you are talking about the survival of humanity or the prevention of a dictatorship winning.

>It's why we as a society have progressed.
Really? I thought it might have to do with an increasing understanding of the world, industrial surplus, agricultural surplus and faster communication. But no clearly it's because we have developed morality to such a high degree, must be why philosophers are the most famous people in the world right now, right?

>The Civil rights movement was argued based on morality, as was suffrage.
No. They were based on logic seeing as the primary arguments for it were that there were no known differences that would render any of the involved parties superior to the other in regards to the purpose of the laws being proposed.

>War crimes are based on morality, and so are not just "a term to shut down arguments you can't counter".
They are whenever you use them the way you are. There are no war crimes at this point in time and so you are using them as a buzzword. Something to say "You can't do that, that is against the rules!" without understanding there are no rules. That you are doing the same as if I was to start shouting about how our surveillance system goes against the human right to privacy whenever that charter hasn't existed or been followed in fallout for centuries.

>Just because human rights don't exist, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.
Debatable

>There is always a first for everything and there is no reason it can't be us.
You know, except for us being a state which has existed for less than half a decade, still lacks many vital industries, is involved in a half a dozen wars against groups who would happily eradicate our entire people and the fact that we lack the resources to sustain a successful war effort if we were tied down or held back even slightly.

>>1723333
Dry tropical or desert climates

In dry desert environments, temperatures can be extremely high—hot enough to frazzle most plants inside a greenhouse structure unless cactus is the only crop being grown.

Temperatures of well over 100°F (38°C) year round combined with low humidity are typical in this sort of climate. The main environmental threats are high winds carrying dust or sand, which can blast both crops and greenhouses.

A proven type of greenhouse structure for this type of extreme climate is actually just a simple tent with poles set deeply into the ground, constructed with high-tensile steel wires to form a basic framework over which a single layer of fine insect mesh is stretched and secured around the edges.

This forms a shaded and insect-proof structure that allows adequate air exchange to prevent heat buildup. Inside, the humidity can be increased by fogging or misting, which also acts to reduce temperatures—often to levels well below those of the outdoor environment. Low humidity levels allow for the effective use of evaporative cooling, which is the main feature of cropping in this kind of dry, arid climate.

Air movement is essential inside this type of structure to maintain good levels of transpiration within the crop, as this is another method of natural plant cooling. More advanced high-tech, computer controlled and air-conditioned structures are also in use in climates like this.

As far as I can tell, no it shouldnt. The amount of light needed for actual large-scale farming vs water reclamation above ground should go in favour of above ground. Cooling plants through water evaporation and then reclaiming the water should work fine. Low tech, as described above, works in the desert fine.

>>1723351
>This forms a shaded and insect-proof structure that allows adequate air exchange to prevent heat buildup. Inside, the humidity can be increased by fogging or misting, which also acts to reduce temperatures—often to levels well below those of the outdoor environment. Low humidity levels allow for the effective use of evaporative cooling, which is the main feature of cropping in this kind of dry, arid climate.

This type of structure is much different than the one proposed here >>1723291 which is more akin to a true indoor structure. Rather than being a building, it is a conventional greenhouse mesh which is cooled by humidifacation and ventilation, via evaporation cooling, which does not allow for much moisture recollection as with an indoor structure.

>>1723351
This was the greenhouse option I mentioned earlier.This improves temperature and humidity increasing crop yield, but does not effectively increase water conservation. The water is pumped into the air to humidify and cool the temperature, which escapes through the ventilation of the structure itself to bring air to the plants and allow evaporation to move heat out of the tent.

>>1723351
>Cooling plants through water evaporation and then reclaiming the water should work fine.
It's difficult to reclaim the water via a mesh greenhouse than with a normal solid structure / indoor farming.

The evaporated water has to escape to the outside to allow the structure to cool.

You could add a large condensation to the ventilation perhaps, but then your energy and maintenance costs would increase and at that point if you wanted to develop a closed system in the first place the underground option would be more efficient as it wouldn't have all that massive heating.

Furthermore water would also escape through the mesh itself to ventilate the structure, allowing it to leak into the open air as opposed to a closed structure.

These are according to your followers thermal calculations.

>>1723356
Yes, this was more an example as to how little it takes to grow stuff in the desert. Simple evaporation is enough to keep plants cool. If we remove water moisture so the plants constantly cool themselves we dont even have to invest in any real cooling, further reducing power cost.

>>1723373
Aye. Its an effective way to increase crop yield without much cost to power, but at the same time evaporation doesn't help with your water reserves.

Still, its not like you are pouring water into the sun. Though a mesh greenhouse won't drastically increase water consumption, its not exactly helpful either. It does help by growing much larger, healthier plants.

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>>1723373
This is an even simpler version.

>>1723373
>If we remove water moisture so the plants constantly cool themselves
Well, actually, that would make things hotter and the plants would suffer. Humidification decreases temperature, drying the air increases it.

>>1723347
>Western morality is also tied to the culture we're trying to rebirth. Following it is not an invalid expectation.
Many of us want to make a new culture and not be a carbon copy of the old. So no, following it isn't invalid but may be pointless seeing as we will be changing it later.

Also we already have broken a western morality multiple times: intrusive surveillance for example.

>Your way is also cruel and unnecessary.
Cruel is a strange term to use seeing as it implies that I am going out of my way to make them suffer when in fact I am merely doing the most efficient way of gather the needed resource which is a manner most painless for them.

As to unnecessary, you already declared we needed brains. Thus this is a necessary act.

>just because human rights don't exist, doesn't mean they should not. We should be striving to improve, not accepting how things are.
True but whenever we have higher priorities, surviving the war against the Legion, MLA and Elijah, I drop morality to the side roads because survival is more important than feeling good about what you have done.

>moral society according to american morals we are trying to be a better example of.
Yes but what is "better" you'd argue your beliefs are superior and I would argue they are not. So this whole point is useless as an argument.

>We can state the people didn't all die to defend their emperor based on the fact the towns were not rendered barrens and still exist. Rome fell, but there were still people living after.
That would be because some people are cowards and hid, others were raped to shit and left alive, other cowards escaped and returned and there were also the attackers of the city who remained within. Plus the population dropped like fuck with the Fall of Rome.

>Or we can kill the soldiers as necessary, and not target individuals of non-importance.
Killing the soldiers as necessary is a logical point seeing as it is always necessary. As to targeting individuals of non-importance, I have already explained who their mere existence supports the Legion.

>Their existence is only a threat because you want them to be a threat. the legion citizens can be swayed- they are not robots. If they think it's in their best interest to cooperate, they will.
True a few might turn to our side but why would the majority cooperate with us? We are everything they hate, fear and despise: technological advanced, profligates, who fight against their great leader. More likely is them fighting against us or running with the Legion.

>My moral system is closely tied to the modern western one. We're trying to be a new America, a modern western society.
No, we are trying to build a good society. If it is a "modern western" society with a "modern western" moral system as you describe that is lovely but that isn't what I am pushing for.

>>1723389
Yes, and if we remove the moisture from the air and reclaim the water, we save on water as well.