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Where we left off...
"Fine," you concede, "you've forced me into it, but at the end of the day my life is more important than my pride. Keiseki-san," you say, standing up from the table, "we'll shake on it. Then I'll hand Caster over to you."

Smug satisfaction spreads across Keiseki's face as he gets up. "I'm so glad to hear you've seen the light, Yumigawa-san," he declares, walking around the table to take your hand, "I really didn't want to do any unnecessary-"

You've had enough of listening to this bastard for a lifetime. Now it's time to let the rage you've been choking back take over. Turning the handshake into a throw, you trip him up and slam his face down onto your knee, cutting off his words.. You feel the satisfying crunch of his teeth and nose breaking, and as he slides to the ground, unconscious, you observe that he's left a bright bloodstain on your cream slacks. You turn to Kikuko, hopping lightly up to stand on the table, and bring the toe of your right loafer level with her eyes. "Call Archer," you say in a soft, threatening purr, "and I'll stove your face in before you get the first word out." You're really grinning down at her now, not faking the friendly student's amiable smile as you've done so many times before; it feels so good to finally be in control again after dancing to the tune these two have set since last night. The girl silently nods in terror, and you slam your heel into her forehead for a quick knockout.

Then you return to Keiseki. He's still breathing, and you'll have to make this quick in order to deprive Blackbeard of energy before he becomes suspicious. Still, you do want to inflict some punishment on the man who seems to have orchestrated this disaster. After a moment of pondering, you decide to use him to test the limits of your current strength. Holding the unconscious man up with one hand around his face, you flatten the other into a makeshift blade. Looking at him for a moment, you think on your acquaintance with the man. It's been short, but he's given you so many reasons to hate him; depriving you of Lancer, sabotaging your alliance with Truvietianne, putting Caster in danger, forcing you to sit there and listen to his disingenuous pleasantries. You savor the moment of your victory, and then slice your hand across his throat with your full strength.

It's not totally satisfactory. You'd hoped that you were powerful enough now to decapitate Keiseki with your bare hands, but the best you manage is tearing open his throat. 'Ah, well,' you think, 'at least he's dead.' You toss the corpse to the side and return your gaze to Kikuko. Now, what should you do with the unconscious girl?

>[ ] Kill her and flee with Caster. (Duty/Self-Preservation)

>[ ] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

>[ ] Something else (Write in)

>>3374579
>[ ] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

>>3374579
>>[X] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)
Yoink!
Remember, we can fuck with her contract and possibly make her An Hero Archer with Caster's help.

>>3374579
>[ ] Kill her and flee with Caster. (Duty/Self-Preservation)
Not gonna fuck with it, nope.

>>3374579
>[ ] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

>>3374579
>[ ] Kill her and flee with Caster. (Duty/Self-Preservation)

>>3374595
What could possibly go wrong?
Bitch is out cold.
I feel like Archer is kind of the sort that would attempt to pursue us in revenge if we killed her anyway.
We can have Caster do so many FUN things to her as well.
Just imagine the look on her face when she wakes up in a dark room and attempts to call Archer only to realise that nobody is coming and her command spells are gone.

>>3374579
>[ ] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

>>3374579
>[ ] Kill her and flee with Caster. (Duty/Self-Preservation)

Oh right.
Don't forget to head stomp Keiseki for luck
Just in case.

One thing to remember is that our allies at our base wouldn't necessarily approve of whatever fucked up magical torture you guys are planning if we kidnap her.

>>3374697
We're not planning torture.
We're planning ENHANCED INTERROGATION.
Big difference.
We're totally in the right here.
This woman is a terrorist.

>>3374579
>[ ] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

>>3374704
That is not necessarily true. Also if we take her and run we leave behind Truviet. And she's been with us for a while. She needs some kind of support. I dont feel good with just abandoning her like this.

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ARCHER HAS NO WEAKNESSES

>>3374717
You know, that is something we need to discuss. I personally don’t want to abandon her simply because she’s served us rather well and her servant is dead, so there’s really no reason to kill her/let her die.

>>3374717
>>3374725
Agreed. We should try to find Truviet and bring her back with us. It’d be wrong to leave her.

>>3374725
>Kill Kikuko
>Truvi contracts with Archer
>Both are pissed at us
HMMM

>>3374725
I don't want to either but we don't really have a choice here.
Archer will be on our ass instantly if we kill Kukiko
We'll have a valuable head start if we don't kill her immediately.

>>3374732
Yeah, that's the kicker.
Archer can't contract with another *better* master if he's still stuck with his naive sadistic retard master who's currently getting the circuits and command spells ripped out of her.

>>3374725
It more then that, she is the only one to suffer because of our actions. She has more than earned my respect. We also have disregarded her opinions. Also since she is familiar with the war; she is probably thinking that she is going to die shortly due to Lancers death.

>>3374736
We do have a chance. We can search for Truviet while Archer and Caster fight it out after we (hopefully)kill her/(but probably)kidnap her.

>>3374756
Kidnapping her is better for our goals.
Remember.
Caster
Non Magus/Servant enemy.
Like a lamb to the slaughter.
We'll know everything she knows and she'll dance like a puppet to whatever tune we sing.

>>3374732
I can accept her anger after what happened, but I'm sure she would forgive us.

>>3374764
We dont actually know if she is a magus, (or god forbid a dead apposite) we haven't seen her actually do anything offensive, we should be wearily of what she might be capable of.

>>3374765
She blames us for Lancer's death (even tho she followed our plans of her own free will). She's probably had enough of following us and it's probably safe to assume she'll become an enemy if she contracts with archer, or heck, rider.

>>3374780
Anon, if she was a dead apostle the sun would be harming her and a single heel smash would have just made her laugh.
And even if she IS a magus she's still gonna get fucking destroyed by Circe, who is probably the greatest magus active in this era not counting True Magic bullshit.
Additionally, we aren't gonna kill a dead apostle with our bare hands anyway.

>Adviser to Heroes: B
As an enchantress who facilitates the accomplishments of others, Caster is able to offer preternaturally good advice to one whom she considers a "hero". When aiding this person, her predictive and analytical abilities are enhanced significantly.
I feel like we haven't seen much of this yet. Also we definitely need her to make some enchanted items for us when we get the chance.

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>>3374794
Is this identity theft?

>>3374800
>anon who does edits of an identity thief gets his identity stolen
It's a deep irony

>>3374788
I'm sure she will listen to us after she calms down, she did just go through a crushing defeat.

>>3374805
Do you think there was something between them?

>>3374807
No. But maybe.

>>3374697
They don't need to know exactly what's going on. Caster's tower is a quiet place.

>>3374717
Archer is sure to be on our ass instead of Truvi's since we have his master. And if he takes Truvi hostage for negotiations, we just need to use the first spell to guarantee Truvi's safety and a second to kill himself.

>>3374764
Now that I think about it, we'll have pretty much free reign over what we do with Kikuko. Rather than torture her, we could potentially rewire her into being a good (and/or more importantly, loyal) person. After Archer is dealt with of course.

>>3374805
Hopefully Truvi comes around. It would be unfortunate to have to kill her after she's been such a help to us.

>>3374807
After what we saw of Truvi gunning Lancer with Gandr at the beginning of the war? Not likely.

>>3374819
>Yumigawa Rushorou
>Train someone else into a good person
I think you may have some trouble with that.

I feel like we're really getting off track and making way too many assumptions about what we can do with Kikuko. We should do everything in our power to weaken Archer and strengthen ourselves to defeat him instead of wasting time with edgy torture.

>>3374819
>After what we saw of Truvi gunning Lancer with Gandr at the beginning of the war? Not likely.
She's an Edelfelt, they're all tsundere ojous. Even the men.

>>3374819
Re-writing her seems a tad too evil for my taste. If we are going to kidnap her (like the votes suggest) cant we just get the info we need then finish her. Going any further than that is too cruel.

>>3374828
I just want to make her use a command spell to have Archer kill himself. Simple as.

>>3374828
It's not edgy torture.
That's just a bit of funposting.
The point stands that Caster, being a LITERAL GODDESS OF MAGIC can do so much.
Including geas, brainwashing, command spell stealing.
And as Archer has A rank independent action, killing her won't do shit.

>>3374825
Hey, I never said it would be the textbook good. Thus the part in parentheses.

>>3374831
If we rewire her, we can at least spare her life. Hell, we might even get some use out of her if we figure out what she's good at.
[Spoiler]At least let me try to manufacture compassion points[/spoiler]

>>3374825
Define good. Loyal and useful to RUSHOROU? That’s a good person.

Stands in the way of our goals? That’s a B A D hombre.

>>3374831
We don't have to kill her or rewrite her.
Just slap a dozen "if you perform action, you will die." Geas onto her.

Take no prisoners:
>>3374595
>>3374606
>>3374636

"The Classic Caster"
>>3374586
>>3374587
>>3374600
>>3374632
>>3374710

>[X] Throw her over your shoulder and mentally ask Caster if she can facilitate you getting her back to the university as a prisoner. (Pride/Sadism)

The question now is, do you want to look for Truvietianne or run back to the university ASAP?

>>3374844
I don't see rewriting as a compassion action

Also I'm not sure if anyone's discussed this yet but it's possible that our appearance changes are linked to our "alignment" based on our choices like Duty, Sadism, etc. Might not be true but it's definitely possible since we're a conceptual being now.

>>3374861
Look for Truviet

>>3374861
Let’s look for Tuvi first.

>>3374861
Look for Truvietianne. It’s a dangerous world out there....

>>3374861
>look for Truviet
Damn it we don't have time for this!

>>3374861
Let's get Truvi outta there

>>3374861
Run back ASAP.
It seems a bit ridiculous to take her back to a place that Archer has been able to easily break into in the past, just saying. Unless we prepare traps for him or something.

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>wasting time getting back to our castle when we'll likely be hunted by Archer and we're carrying a hostage

>>3374880
He only made it through the weakest part of the barrier.


Also if Fate has taught me anything it is this.
When MC makes an ally, it's an ally for life.

>>3374862
If we want to spare her I think we can have Circe polymorph her then reverse it at the end of the war. But I think that's something we can figure out later.

>>3374861
Look for her but if we can't immediately find her we quickly leave. We don't have that much time.

>>3374895
>end our interrogation with "now what animal would you prefer to be, if you could choose?"
Unlimited Sadism Works

I'm still wondering if we've seen the effects of that 100 yet.
I also wonder if Hitler-chan was watching our display.

Honestly, what a bunch of BASED and EPIC edit/drawfags. Kings, the lot of you.

>>3374911
I mean, based on how everything has went since the betrayal? I can definitely see that natty on display.

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>>3374912
Some day I will redraw Killer Queen or The World to look like Circe

>>3374938
>Yumigawa just wants a quiet life
Nah, I have it on good authority that one simple thought occupies his mind: to be victorious and rule!

>[X] Go looking for Truvietianne before returning to the university.

Roll d100

Rolled 12 (1d100)

>>3374951
Come on....

Rolled 94 (1d100)

>>3374951

>>3374959
ONCE AGAIN
LUCK HAS SIDED WITH YUMIGAWA RUSHOROU

Rolled 10 (1d100)

>>3374951

>>3374959
I guess Truvi is our charge now, since she's a noncombatant.

Looking at Kikuko's unconscious body and considering your future course, you decide to consult with Caster. Fortunately, your current location is hidden from the view of the ship, so the Servants are still waiting for the conference between Masters to be completed. You open the telepathic connection between the two of you, explaining how you dealt with Keiseki and Kikuko.

'How marvellous,' Caster replies cheerily, 'and now you're unsure of how to get out of this situation?'

'That's right,' you tell her. 'There are three things I need to do here. First, to neutralize Archer. Taking Munahara as a hostage is the best way to do that, I think, but can your magic arrange some way for us to get away without Archer being able to intercept?. Second, I need to find Edelfelt and make sure she gets back to the university. Even without a Servant, she's too useful to allow her to fall here. Frankly, though, I'm not confident of finding her in all these towers. Do you have any thoughts on how to go about that? Finally, we obviously need to make it safely back to the university ourselves.'

'That's a lot to consider,' Caster replies, 'but Rider should be feeling the effects of his Master's death shortly, which means Archer will be looking for that girl. For now, focus on taking her and getting to street level as quickly as you can. I'll make a retreat here.'

True to Caster's words, as you throw Kikuko over your shoulder you can hear the creaking and groaning of wood below, as Rider's ship begins to lose the power keeping it aloft. "What the devil?" Rider roars, his voice echoing off the surrounding buildings, "Keiseki! What's going on?" You beat a hasty retreat to the fire escape, which is fortunately on the opposite side of the building from the river. As you pass his corpse, you give Keiseki's head a final resentful kick, which manages to complete your earlier attempt at decapitation.

As you rush down the fire escape, Caster's voice returns to your mind. 'Alright, Master,' she says, 'Archer and Rider are preoccupied dealing with the ship going down! I was able to get away without their notice by leaving an illusion behind.' Then you reach the base of the building, and she's waiting there. For a moment, you lose track of your thoughts, overwhelmed by relief at seeing her safe after her desperate battle. Thoughtlessly, you wrap your free hand around her in a one-armed hug, pulling her close.

"M-Master," Caster squeaks, "you-this isn't the time!" As you hold her close, you can feel her heartbeat accelerate. Then you pull back, embarrassed.

"Sorry," you say, "I wasn't thinking."

Red-faced, Caster replies, "No, it's fine, it's just... not right now."

"Right, of course," you nod in bashful assent. "We need to hurry. Can you scry for Edelfelt, or something?"

"Here," Caster raises a finger to the reflective surface of the office's window, and the image of Truvietianne walking appears. She's evidently some distance away from the river, as her surroundings are still and tranquil. The girl herself still looks angry and distraught, periodically sniffing as she walks. "She's walking straight South, back to the university," Caster says, "not using the roundabout path we took on the way here. She's already halfway back, and there's been no pursuit. I don't think there's anything to worry about with her."

"I see," you say, before Caster continues, "Now, if you can tolerate some heavy energy use, I can teleport the three of us back to the university."

>[ ] "Go ahead," you tell her, "time is of the essence now." (Duty)

>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)

>>3375128
>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)
I mean, she *is* already halfway there. Man, bravo QM. This whole mini-arc has simply been gorgeous. I’ve never quite despised an enemy on /qst/ the same way I do Archer, and the writing her has been absolute kino. Bravo.

>>3375132
>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)
Truvietianne assisted us and, as of now, is just as helpless as the people Assassin protects. I will not allow an innocent to die, let alone a former ally, if I can help it.

>>3375132
>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)

>>3375132
>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)

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>>3375143
Aw, thanks anon! That really means a lot to me. Hope everyone else is enjoying things as well!

>>3375132
>[ ] "Hold on," you say, "can you take us to Truvietianne instead?" (Compassion)

>>3375158
I just wanted to punch archer before this, now I just want him dead, by any means necessary. So thank you for giving me a hate sink.

>>3375158
I enjoy things, as I am fully capable of the laughter.

>>3375158
Also great writing with Caster. You have made her one of the few Caster class servants I like.

Now the question I have to ask myself is, how many of you will follow me when F/CA ends and I begin my OC isekai quest, "Was that Trope Based on Reality? When I Died I was Reborn in a New World thanks to a Celestial Filing Error!"

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>>3375132
>"No, it's fine, it's just... not right now."
>"Now, if you can tolerate some heavy energy use, I can teleport the three of us back to the university."
Is a fug imminent or did we chose the wrong option?

>>3375205
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and see how it starts.

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>>3375205
Can I make more Dio edits for the protag?

>>3375287
Oh man, only if you do them from the first 3 parts of the manga. I can hardly believe Dio looks as bad as he does later on.

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>>3375294
Then you know I'm there.
Yeah, DIO is much better in Araki's earlier artstyle.

>>3375296
>filename
He's certainly not.

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>>3375299
He tried to be, unlike this one.

"Hold on," you say, considering the situation, "if you can teleport us back to the university, can you take us to Edelfelt's location instead? I'd like to make sure she doesn't run into the enemy on her way back."

"If you insist," Caster answers reluctantly, and takes your hand, extending her wings to enclose the two of you, "Tροψα"

For a moment, you feel a great burden as the magical energy flows out of you, through Caster and into the world. Then it's over, and you stand on another street, in front of Truvietianne. The girl blanches at your sudden appearance. "W-was that teleportation? That's..."

Caster cuts her off. "Just a spacial transportation spell. It's nothing special, you know."

"Hmph!" The younger magus sniffs in frustration. "I suppose I shouldn't have expected anything but derision from you. As for you, Yumigawa-kun," Truvietianne turns to face you, "have you taken up kidnapping?"

You suppress a laugh. "No, Miss Edelfelt," you say, "after you left I was able to subdue the other two Masters myself. Rider's Master is no longer alive, but I did take this one prisoner. It is my hope that we will be able to use her against Archer."

"Well," Truvietianne says, "isn't that lovely for you? I wish you all the best of fortune. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm returning to the university to join Matsuda-kun and Ogawara-kun as one unable to participate in the Holy Grail War!" Clearly, it will be some time before Truvietianne's frustration begins to fade. Still, you may as well try to make the best of it.

"And that's exactly why I'm here now, Miss Edelfelt," you say, filling your voice with warmth and concern, "I was worried you might run into an enemy Servant on your way back, so Caster and I decided we should accompany you."

"Thank you," Truvietianne says icily, "for your concern."

With Truvietianne's attitude depressing the atmosphere, the rest of the walk back to the university is largely silent. Kikuko stirs once or twice, but doesn't wake.

You arrive just as the university clock tower chimes noon, shocking you. It feels as if its been days since you set out, but you realize now that the whole affair took barely more than two hours. As you step inside the university's protective wards, you allow yourself to fall to a seat on one of the garden benches, relief at your escape flooding through you and sapping the nervous energy that's kept you going.

"Master," Caster says as you take your rest, "what do you want to do with Archer's Master?"

"Ah yes," you say, "for now..."

>[ ] "Lock her up in one of the basement rooms. I have some other things to take care of before we deal with her fully." (Write in what you want to do at the university. See Ogawara or Matsuda, eat lunch, discuss other matters with Circe, etc.)

>[ ] "Let's take her into the university chapel. I have some plans for her, and it's well separated from prying eyes and ears." (Write in how you want to deal with Kikuko.)

>[ ] Something else. (Write in)

>>3375373
>[ ] "Lock her up in one of the basement rooms. I have some other things to take care of before we deal with her fully." (Write in what you want to do at the university. See Ogawara or Matsuda, eat lunch, discuss other matters with Circe, etc.)

See if caster can make sure she stays asleep. Gather ogawara and matsuda, Truviet is she wants to be alone so be it. Inform them of the situation, what transpired, stay with someone incase archer breaks in. See circe. Double check make sure she is alright after the fight, Express guilt of walking into a trap and inadvertently getting Lancer killed. Ask her to keep an eye on Truviet, as a precaution. Then move on to what to do with archers master.


I might be forgetting a few things but that should cover most of everything. Keeps people informed, maybe protected. Shows Circe we care, and gives time for Truviet to claim down, while also being monitored.

>>3375373
>[ ] "Let's take her into the university chapel. I have some plans for her, and it's well separated from prying eyes and ears." (Write in how you want to deal with Kikuko.)
We should keep her as close to Caster as possible, to ensure Archer can't reach her.
Remember, Archer had to meet us far away from her room at a weak point in her defences despite having Magic Resistance at A, so if Kikuko is in the strongest point that isn't right next to Caster then he can't reach her.

We can put additional defences around her and then either turtle until he vanishes or brainwash her and make Archer an heroic spirit.

>>3375373
>[ ] "Let's take her into the university chapel. I have some plans for her, and it's well separated from prying eyes and ears." (Write in how you want to deal with Kikuko.)
Let's have some fun.
Make it so she wakes up in a dark room tied to a chair unable to call Archer.
Then the INTERROGATION begins.
Have Caster do whatever mind reading shit she can pull off.
Geas her too.
Then, depending on what she's after and why she did what she did, if it's an unjust cause ask her what sort of animal she wants to be.
If she's not massively evil she can stay in the chapel.
If she actually has some righteous goal, allow her to roam the university with plenty of geas' preventing a betrayal.
See if Caster can steal the command spells for Archer either way.
these parallels tho.

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>>3375569
We should have Circe figure out a way to block the telepathy between Master and Servant.

>>3375573
Yeah
Also
I at least want to her reasoning anyway.
Mr. "Give me Caster, i outplayed u lol" was just toooo dumb to live though.
We're a psychopath that cares for his friends (and goals) and can perfectly conceal his true emotions.
Keiseki got in the way of both our motivators.
So clearly we needed to dispose of him.
Kikuko... well, her fate will be decided by her actions.

>>3375158
Yeah, good job writing Archer.
He's a real piece of work.
An excellent villain.

>>3375373
Before anything else, find a way to tell the others to remain deep within Caster's barrier. Their survival may depend on it.
>[ ] "Let's take her into the university chapel. I have some plans for her, and it's well separated from prying eyes and ears." (Write in how you want to deal with Kikuko.)
First, silence Kikuko to prevent her from using her command seals. Also obstruct the communication between master and servant, if possible.
Second, find out what's really going on inside her head. What kind of person she is, why she betrayed us, etc. Search around her memories too to find out how she came to cooperate with Rider and what she was thinking each time she met us. We need to know their relation to Rider just in case Rider isn't dead yet and the QAR is still a problem.
Third, have Caster scry to see if Rider is really gone or not. I don't want to use Archer's command seals until we can be sure that doing so will eliminate him for good.
Fourth, if we know Archer won't get QAR zombified (either because he never "served" on the ship in the first place or because Rider is through and by extension the QAR) then take care of Archer. If Kikuko is a good person and it's possible, mind control Kikuko and order him to kill himself since it would be nice to avoid tearing out the nerves in her arm when she doesn't deserve it. If Kikuko is a vile shitstain or mind control either can't be done or would be too risky, just take the command seals and do it. If she has three command seals still, use two for good measure since Magic Resistance A is a bitch like that.
Once we know what kind of person Kikuko is, we can come to a further conclusion about what to do with her.

>>3375622
>If she has three command seals still, use two for good measure since Magic Resistance A is a bitch like that.
Magic Resistance can't defy Command Spells, only sheer willpower can.
We might have to use multiple Command Spells anyway given that Archer is Cunt Eastwood.

>>3375626
>As they are magecraft, the A-rank Magic Resistance of Saber and Rider of Black are great enough to repulse and withstand a single stroke of a Command Spell.
Never mind.
USE ALL THE SPELLS

>>3375626
No, it's the magic resistance that helps Saber.
Her willpower isn't that fantastic at least compared to other servants.
The only person with enough willpower to do shit like that is Gilgamesh.
And he nosells Manjew's evil mud.

>>3375630
Yeah, I saw that already
Still, we now know that we'll need to use at least two Command Spells.
We might as well make it three to be 100% certain of killing Archer and to remove Kikuko from the Grail War.

>>3375638
It's smarter to use two. Holding onto the third will keep the contract in place (if you use all three command spells, the contract is broken and the servant can go find a new master), and then we can watch to see if the third command spell vanishes, which will signal Archer's demise.
Granted, it'd be hard to find a new contract while carrying out a suicide order, but they can't resist two spells and better safe than sorry.

>>3375644
>and then we can watch to see if the third command spell vanishes, which will signal Archer's demise
Pretty sure they don't disappear when your Servant dies. You can still form a contract with another Servant.

>>3375652
>Their loss does not indicate forfeiture of position in the Grail War, as the contract with the Servant is also part of being a Master.

>>3375652
They do disappear when killed. It happens many, many times in the various installments of Fate.

>>3375657
post links, I can only quote from the wiki here so shit's probably wrong

>>3375663
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Command_Spells
"Command Spells do not disappear simply with the loss of a Servant, but instead only when one gives up or loses their right to be a Master.[3] With regular Masters, this happens instantly upon losing their Servant, and only members of the Three Founding Families have shown the ability to exercise the authority of a Master even without a Servant. They will not lose their Command Spells so long as there exist Servants without established contracts.[4]"
It happens a lot in the VN, but it's harder to find concrete examples from the anime. I'll keep looking, though.

>>3375673
How in the fuck did I miss that?
Whatever, I guess we'll use two Command Spells, then steal the third and sever the contract if that doesn't work.

>>3375673
Oh, and by the way, there's a play through of F/SN on LPArchive if you want to get direct quotes from the VN.
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/

>>3375690
That's really helpful. I'll use that from now on. Thanks a lot.

If you'd like a direct example of disappearing command spells from the VN, then one instance happens right at the beginning of this scene in Heaven's Feel.
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20297/

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>casually murders people
>no negative reaction to first kill
>kidnaps people
>plans to brainwash a girl, or rip the nerves out of her arm as punishment.
>or turn her into a random animal (Snake? Pig? Cat?)
>makes agreements, immediately breaks agreement and murders the guy who we made the agreement with
>wants to rule
>befriended Hitler
>manipulates people like they are puppets
>grins like a lunatic when he's trampling on others and murdering his enemies
Hans... are we the baddies?

>>3375766
>casually murders people
Hey! I'll have you know that we murder people very angrily, not casually. And they were also trying to kill us. It was legally dubious self defense!
>makes agreements, immediately breaks agreement and murders the guy who we made the agreement with
It's impossible to give true consent when placed under duress. That agreement was invalid from the get-go, officer!
>kidnaps people
>plans to brainwash a girl, or rip the nerves out of her arm as punishment.
The kidnapping is the only way to save her, realistically speaking. And if she's a snake, we can't exactly let her remain prisoner or run back to the apartment complex and spread filthy lies into the heads of Ogawara/Matsuda/Truvi or the survivors. It's for their own protection, I swear.
>manipulates people like they are puppets
..It's negotiation. Yeah. That.
>grins like a lunatic when he's trampling on others and murdering his enemies
Uhhh... it's the adrenaline. Can't help it, y'know.

We need to invest more into Compassion.

>>3375795
>Compassion
We're working on it.
We can be nice to our prisoner if she cooperates.
First we'll ask questions
Then we'll go into Caster interrogation mode.
If we feel like being nice we won't even meatdoll her.

>>3375789
>Hey! I'll have you know that we murder people very angrily, not casually. And they were also trying to kill us. It was legally dubious self defense!
We murdered one person angrily and one person casually.
>It's impossible to give true consent when placed under duress. That agreement was invalid from the get-go, officer!
This.
>The kidnapping is the only way to save her, realistically speaking. And if she's a snake, we can't exactly let her remain prisoner or run back to the apartment complex and spread filthy lies into the heads of Ogawara/Matsuda/Truvi or the survivors. It's for their own protection, I swear.
That's right. We have no cruel, skeevy or manipulative intentions toward her. We just want to conduct some enhanced interrogation, yeah?
>...It's negotiation. Yeah. That.
CHARISMA! THE SHEER EMOTIVE POWER THAT DRIVES A SOLDIER, TO FOLLOW A DICTATOR OR PUT HIS FAITH IN A CORRUPT CULT!

>>3375766

>casually murders people
Hey, if they fight back it counts as a foight, not murder
>no negative reaction to first kill
That guy had an irritating face
>kidnaps people
*kidnaps little girls he knocked unconscious
>plans to brainwash a girl, or rip the nerves out of her arm as punishment.
I’ll have you know, I just want her to force her magical bff to commit seppuku.
>or turn her into a random animal (Snake? Pig? Cat?)
......
>makes agreements, immediately breaks agreement and murders the guy who we made the agreement with
Honestly, do you need to honor agreements with scum that collaborated with traitors?
>wants to rule
As we should
>befriended Hitler
*befriended Hitler-chan
>manipulates people like they are puppets
When you’ve got the strings....
>grins like a lunatic when he's trampling on others and murdering his enemies
*grins like a lunatic when he's trampling on those who oppose his enlightened and destined rule and murdering those who oppose his enlightened and destined rule

>random Student Council President is responsible for every death so far except Lancer, who conveniently decided to die as a result of our actions.
This is some Kiritsugu level shit.
We don't need to be a Magus Killer to crush these insects.
Imagine being dumb enough to trust somebody in a death match.

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>>3376160
>Imagine being dumb enough to trust somebody in a death match.
>Imagine being Truvietianne Edelfelt

>>3376160
Conveniently forgetting we trusted a Archer and a Japanese Schoolgirl

>>3376165
I mean. We're guilty of going into that ambush.
But we fucking turned that ambush around.
I think the difference is that they really should've known better.
We just got tricked and recovered.
Keiseki and Kikuko got japed so hard in response.
Truvi made a good choice in trusting us of all people because Perseus was shit.
We're a psychopath but we won't cross you unless we're crossed first.
>Saber attacked us
>Rider and Keiseki tried to trick us and take Caster
>Archer and Kikuko tried to set us up

>>3376173
Honestly we would've been fine if Perseus hadn't jobbed hard.
2v2 is still winnable.

>>3376211
Also we had no idea Archer and Kukiko were planning something considering in our other meetings they seemed not to want to murder us.
He even went for a non lethal spot when he was shooting us.
Well except in the bad ends but that was just that dick Archer.
Also
>Keiseki, an office manager is casually outplayed by a man who in a world without the war would've likely become a CEO or Company President.
We were his superior in every way.

>>3376211
Fucking Perseus, man. Had a kit on par with Cu Chulainn's, but because he's ancient Shinji he fucked it up. I get that it's hard for Truvi, but she should probably be glad that asshat kicked the bucket before he could do something stupid and Shinjoid like turn on Rushorou, thereby dooming himself and endangering his master.

>>3376270
Honestly I fucked up giving him Battle Continuation A. From what I had in mind for the character, it should have been B or C.

>>3376270
>Fucking Perseus, man. Had a kit on par with Cu Chulainn's
They really are similar.
>Harpe's NO HEALZ ALLOWED ≈ Gay Bulge's NO HEALZ ALLOWED
>Mirror Ballsack and Erection of Doom are both weapons you have to interrupt or you'll get fucked over
>Both have high mobility (Cu Chulainn is kenyan fast and Perseus has his magic dance shoes)

>>3376303
One’s just unlucky and the other is bitchmade.

>>3376231
You could say Rushorou was... chosen by heaven...

>>3376318
You could say it was... made in heaven.

>>3376288
I am a little confused as to how he got iced so easily. Did No Name’s gun have a property that got around defenses or something? Or is Perseus just a jobber?

>>3376303
>thinking interrupting the activation of Gae Bolg does anything
If it were Cu here we'd get
>GAE BO-
>Colt 45!
>Angry spear gibs Archer anyway because muh causality rewriting
It didn't work too well for Bazette either.

>>3376326
Basically, Perseus has the gods' favor and so he gets a lot of fancy toys, skills, and stats, but that doesn't mean he knows how to use them.
Such is the nature of anyone who shares a significant number of traits with Shinji.

>>3376326
Basically it goes like this. Endurance is the ability to mitigate damage, Battle Continuation is the ability to tolerate damage. Lancer's endurance is C; not great.
From the FSN status screen, the description of Battle Continuation A says that it
>allows the user to stay alive until they receive a clearly fatal blow.
A .45 round to the heart is something I'd consider "a clearly fatal blow."

>>3376341
I'd say the same to an enchanted barbed spear of death through the heart and Cu kept functioning after that.

>>3376160
>he says while we're all still trusting Truvi for no reason

>>3376352
I thought that scene was bullshit when I read it, and I still do now.
In any case, the skill "rules" back up what happened to Perseus. Cu survived because of his ridiculous willpower.

>>3376327
It only works out badly because those attacks go off last and then rewrite causality to have actually gone first all along.

Let me explain:
>A: Gae Bolg activates
>B: Therefore you get penetrated
A switches the order to:
>A: You get penetrated
>B: Therefore Gae Bolg activated

Colt .45 and Fragarach normally insert
>C: Cu gets shot
before A, but when A is "Gae Bolg activates" then it gets inserted like so:
>A: Cu gets shot
>B: Bazett gets penetrated hur hur
>C: Therefore Gae Bolg activated

Therefore, if you interrupt A without using a time-travelling attack then you're OK.
The real trouble is in stopping Cu from shouting out the name, because he likes to back off first if I remember that one anime clip right.
>It is like Tsubame Gaeshi in that the best measure against it is to not allow it to begin. Unlike Tsubame Gaeshi, which there is no way to stop it once it has been used, it is possible to find a countermeasure for Gáe Bolg once it is found out that it will go for the heart.
t. wiki

If I made a mistake, please tell me.

>>3376352
Cu also isn't a little bitch who got handed a bunch of glory and magical shit solely because of who his daddy is. Cu stands back up after killing himself and keeps fighting because he's a badass. Shinji (our Perseus analog) runs from the room with his tail between his legs after Lancer pokes him in the shoulder. It's not a stretch to think that Perseus might be similarly unused to pain and just froze from the shock.

>>3376377
For Cu, it lines up perfectly well with his legend. Dude tied himself to a rock (or a tree or a fence depending on the version) as he fought to the death because, as far as he's concerned, only bitches fall over when they die. His enemies didn't figure out he was dead until a raven landed on his shoulder since he was still standing upright.

>>3376377
You're forgetting that servants are still spirits with a different body composition.
A "clearly fatal" wound is something that is harder to pull off than you might think.
You have to critically damage a servants spiritual core, whilst the heart and brain are directly linked to it and deal the most damage.
Battle Continuation A is typically bullshit enough to let you continue to meander about even with that critical damage.

>>3376394
To be fair to Shinji that was a poke with Gae Bolg so Shinji was profusely bleeding for a good few minutes because the blood wouldn't be able to clot.

By the way, how many of you know that Arturia and Erina have the same dub VA?

>>3376387
My understanding is a bit different. The "rewriting of causality" is closer to a rewriting of the future. I might just end up saying the same thing as you in different words, but I think it's worth putting out there in hopes that everybody gains a better understanding of the bullshit that is the Gae Bolg.

Here's how things go on a timeline:
>1: Gae Bolg activates
>2: Next thing to occur
>3: Gae Bolg strikes its target
Section 3 is written into the future as soon as Gae Bolg activates, and its dependency, causality-wise, is reversed. Gae Bolg activates because Gae Bolg lands. No matter what happens, we'll arrive at step 3 even if the world itself has to bend to make it happen. That's why, in the beginning of FSN, Lancer can thrust at Saber's feet and the lance warps itself and its course in order to strike Saber's heart.

That part of the future - that Gae Bolg would hit - was decided as soon as Gae Bolg was activated. Saber survived because of Luck, which is your power to change your fate. With a high enough luck, you can rewrite the fate applied to you where you get hit, like so:
>1: Gae Bolg activates
>2: Saber avoids the attack and in doing so alters fate, leading to step 3b instead of step 3
>3b: Gae Bolg doesn't strike its target because Saber avoided it
Here, Gae Bolg doesn't land, cutting off the weapon's effect at its source.

With Colt .45 and Fragarach, they strike first and retroactively cancel the activation of the Noble Phantasm rather than the hit that follows. The way they work is as such:
>1: NP activates
>2: Interrupter is triggered by the activation
Changing the timeline to:
>1: Interrupter fires "first"
>2: NP is cancelled because it has been interrupted

Now let's consider that interaction with the Gae Bolg. We start at step 1:
>1: Gae Bolg activates
At this moment, the timeline is altered and this is what we have:
>1: Gae Bolg activates
>2: Next thing to occur
>3: Gae Bolg lands a hit
Now that the timeline has reached step 2, the next thing that happens is the firing of the interrupter.
>1: Gae Bolg activates
>2: Interrupter is triggered by the activation
>3: Gae Bolg lands a hit
And the timeline is changed again. But the only thing that changes are the positions of steps 1 and 2 - the future where step 3 occurs isn't changed because that's not covered by the interrupters. Gae Bolg retroactively doesn't activate, but that doesn't matter - it activated even if that activation has been erased, and the reversal of causality has already been established. Gae Bolg activates because Gae Bolg lands. Its effect is not a direct result of its activation like it is with any other attack.

The result of the interaction as a whole is this final timeline:
>1: Interrupter fires "first"
>2: Gae Bolg is cancelled because it has been interrupted
>3: Gae Bolg lands a hit

An explanation of why shields can stop Gae Bolg is much simpler, but is best saved for a different post if anyone wants/needs it.

>>3376531
Isn't the reason the shield blocked it simply because it was a throw and not a thrust?
Only "shield" I see blocking the thrust is an activated Avalon.
For obvious reasons.

>>3376544
The throw is different from the thrust, yes, but the VN explains at one point (I'm struggling to remember where exactly) that there are only three ways to not get killed by the Gae Bolg - first, have high enough luck to overpower the curse; second, have a shield with enough magical energy to overwhelm the lance; and third, don't let it be activated to begin with.

>>3376531
>>3376567
Speaking of luck, you think B is a bit low for what just transpired, or would we have had to go through the whole event unscathed?

>>3376670
I mean, 40x nat luck (and just one tier under the natural max) is pretty astonishing already

>>3376670
B is immensely lucky
40x luckier than average
E is 10x luckier than average but became a dumb meme.

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Sorry for the lack of updates today, folks. Life kinda got the better of me this morning. I'm finally ready to sit down and write now, though.

>>3376754
No worries. Life happens sometimes.

So, what would Kikuko have to say or do in the interrogation for you to not want to give her some terrible punishment, anons?
Also, we should get some throwing knives.
Maybe ask Caster to makes us a set or something.

btw, QM, was the command spell the Dead End or were both viable options?

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>>3376754
>pic related

>>337710
Absolutely nothing. She kills her servant and swears a loyalty geas, or she goes.
Personally, I’m inclined towards a bow. With our enhanced strength and a legit magical bow w magic arrows, it could be niceu.

>>3377108
>what would Kikuko have to say
Good one, anon.
She won't be saying jack shit unless she's put under heavy suggestion. Some sort of mind invasion would be most likely. No way in hell are we about to let her speak freely when she can then use a command spell to summon the roach to her side.

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>>3377531
A bow kind of says "I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU" though.
Quickly reaching into a pocket and introducing somebody's skull to a knife will allow us to kill people before they can use command spells.

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>>3377552
That just sounds like you want to make us DIO, desu.

>>3377552
We don’t have Za Warudo, so knives ultimately are an inferior solution for us.

>>3377576
I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to make us into DIO

>>3377588
Believe it or not, I’m the guy who did the pride write-in. I’ve been voting to turn us into a villain akin to DIO, but just slightly more ethical and less retarded.

>>3377552
>>3377576
>not channeling the energies of both villains whose edits and posting have served us so well
>not having Caster make us throwing knives that have already been touched by Killer Queen since nobody would expect knives to actually be grenades
>>3377586
>not making discount Za Warudo knives by making knives that accelerate their internal time Kiritsugu-style once thrown

>>3377657
Now, internally accelerating grenade knives I can get behind.

Why reduce ourselves to "X but also Y"? I'm not too big of a fan of that.

Memes aside, throwing knives sound pretty good. We can always use them as regular knives in close combat anyway, and it's good to keep some weapons always on us.

>>3377690
>make throwing knives
>win grail war
>final boss is Cid
>he's an executor
>"shall we compare the speed of our knives?"

>>3377763
>>he's an executor
That would be a possibility, wouldn't it?

>>3377769
He's our Kirei stand-in, I fully expect him to be an executor ready to instakill the last Master standing and keep the Grail for himself.

>>3377792
We should 100 percent have Caster make an illusion of us for when we go to him to claim the grail.
Then when he attempts to kill us just have Caster fucking nuke him.

>>3377769
>>3377792
He could also be a dead apostle since Kikuko was our prime suspect and Sweets might want to pull the rug out from under us. Maybe he's both. That'd be a doozy.
Also, yeah, he's totally going to try to murder us to get the Grail. There's a reason he didn't show or even mention Assassin to any of the other Masters.
He's also a priest confirmed by Sweets to be voiced by Jouji Nakata. He practically walks around sipping from a cup labeled "malicious intent."

>>3377872
>the Order
>allowing a Dead Apostle into their ranks
*insert heresy pic here, I lost my files*

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"Let's take her into the university chapel," you say, "we may need to be harsh with her in order to neutralize Archer, and it's well away from prying eyes and ears."

"Oh?" Caster replies, "And just what is it you want to do to this girl that needs to be kept hidden?"

"Well," you explain, as the two of you continue indoors, "all of this is contingent on your magical abilities, to be frank. If there's anything you wouldn't be able to do, let me know."

"Alright," she says, "go on."

"First, we'll need to stop her from contacting Archer, either by telepathy or command spell. We can't risk having her summon him to us. Then I'd like to interrogate her; find out what her intentions were, and her background. Frankly, I'm still not certain whether she truly wanted to betray us, or she was just going along with Archer's plans. We should also be able to find out more about the nature of Archer and Rider's abilities that way. Lastly, we'll need to determine to what extent we can use her against Archer. Would it be possible for you to apply some kind of mental domination or binding, Caster?"

"Kyahaha~!" Caster lets out a high laugh, "You were worried about whether I could do that? Master, I can do all that and more; the mind of an unconscious human is an open book to me. Extracting her memories, giving her commands, even rewriting her personality: it's all child's play for the Sorceress of Aeaea!"

Having arrived at the chapel, you lay the unconscious girl down on a strange marble pedestal in the center of the room. For a moment, you wonder what purpose the odd thing could serve in the ceremonies normally practiced here, but the matter is immaterial. You're not going to ignore a useful piece of furniture, at any rate.

"Caster," you order, "First, bind her in place and silence her."

"Δεσμός" At the witch's word, golden chains of light encircle Kikuko's wrists and ankles, and her body goes rigid as the magical energy seizes control of her muscles. The light draws your attention to Kikuko's hands, and for the first time you realize that she has only one command spell remaining! Although the red mark on her hand forms a pattern of three crosses, two have faded into dull imprints; only a final piece of the spell remains bright.

"Now," you say, "show me her memories."

Caster replies with another incantation, "Ιστορία," and without warning your senses are overridden. You plunge through the recent past, and into more deeper memories, until you reach the time before Kikuko was summoned into the War.

>>3377872
>"GUYS LISTEN UP YOU FUCKING RETARDS, THE OVERSEER HAS AN ASSASSIN AND IS ATTEMPTING TO DUPE US ALL!"
>"lets kill Rushorou and his allies instead"
>"great idea."
Everyone in this war is a retard I fucking swear.
In hindsight, an alliance with Saber might have been a possibility had Perseus not had a raging murderboner for the guy

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>>3377880
Say hello to Merem Solomon. 20th Dead Apostle Ancestor and member of the Burial Agency.

While your method of viewing them is mystical and shocking, Kikuko's memories are anything but. She was an ordinary human, a Japanese student in her second year of high-school. Within that constrained social order, she worked to enhance her own position as much as possible using a calculated persona and her natural charm. To the male students, she was the "Academy Madonna," the flower on a peak they admired without daring to approach. To her female peers, she was the "queen bee," leader of a clique of the most popular girls. She used her popularity and social network to torment less attractive or socially adept students, but always took care to keep word of her own involvement from spreading. One day, she was torn out of this petty lifestyle to awaken in a burning building, much like yourself.

Her time in the Third City was a continuous series of flight, manipulation, and the sacrifice of others to protect herself. One after another, she found other survivors, convinced them to protect her, and saw them die. One such protector was a man who, dying, gave her one gold coin and four silver, which he claimed would protect her. When they summoned Archer, she discovered that he'd been right. After that, she allowed Archer to manage the affairs of the war. Her own wish for the Grail is to never be resented, but always loved on all sides; even by those she willfully hurts.

Her first use of a command spell was to compel him to "Always keep me safe, no matter what!" Her only contribution to the strategy of the war was to insist that the two of them go to meet you after Archer witnessed your first skirmish with Saber and O'Mordha. Having found another student, she'd hoped to turn you into one of her admirers. In order to convince Archer to go along with this scheme, she was forced to use another command spell. Unfortunately, the meeting came to naught, and after this event she put aside all pretense of mastery.

As for the alliance between Archer, Keiseki, and Rider, she didn't take part in the discussion herself. Archer would often leave her hidden in a building and scout on his own, and after one of these reconnaissance missions he simply informed her of the trap, and told her to wait with Keiseki during the fight. She's quite ignorant of Rider's abilities, and has never been aboard his ship. She does, however, possess full knowledge of Archer's abilities.

Status Updated

Having extracted all useful information from the girl, you consider your next move...

>[ ] Wake Kikuko up and have a conscious discussion.

>[ ] Place binding geasa on her before awakening her. (Write in the details)

>[ ] Rewrite her personality into something more to your liking. (Write in your changes. Be as detailed as possible.)

>[ ] Remove her command spells and kill the girl.

>[ ] Remove Kikuko's command spells and transform her into an animal of your choosing. (Sentience optional)

>>3377903
Seems par for the course for Fate.
>>3377925
S-shut up!
>>3377939
So she's a bitch.

>>3377531
Hey man, I've never written a magical interrogation scene before. Took a while to figure out how I wanted to handle it.

>>3377667
>internally accelerating grenade knives
Jesus H. Christ

>>3377939
Wow.
What a bitch.
Hmm.
We have such free reign that I don't know what to pick, like a spoiled child receiving all of his Christmas presents at once.
Let me think...

>>3377939
Okay, so she's just a bitch who doesn't have any idea how to master good. We should think and discuss on this one. There's a lot we could do.

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>>3377987
Whatever we do, we should finish by removing that pretty mask of hers and bringing light to her true form: A vile repulsive snake.

>>3378004
Yeah.
We can Geas the everloving fuck out of her.
We could install the three laws of robotics but just change Human to Yumigawa Rushorou and his allies
We could rewrite her into being basically a slave.
Or completely reverse her personality.
We could take advantage of that first command to have her use her last one to make Archer kill himself and then threaten to kill herself if he doesn't.
>>3378007
She's a bad person sure, but her part played in the betrayal was negligible, she did genuinely want us to be her follower.
She's likely been mindfucked by her experience in the selection round like you'd expect every non-magi or non-psychopath to be.

>>3377976
Wasn’t complaining, just noticed that you posted almost three hours before my post and decided to use a rare reaction image correctly.

>>3377939
Ok, so she’s a infinitely inferior version of Rushorou. Hmm...

>>3378004
Frankly, I’m inclined towards geasing her into ordering Archer’s suicide as soon as she thinks of him, and then killing her once the deed is done. There’s just nothing valuable or interesting to be found with her. She *did* betray the almighty Kaichou after all.

>>3378043
Yeah but, we could just do the equivalent of slapping a Flesh Bud on her.

>>3378035
>she did genuinely want us to be her follower.
You realize that's a bad thing, right?
Besides, transmogrifying her should be considered a mercy.

Guys.
Guys.
Guys.
I have and idea for what to do about Archer.
Hear me out.

You anons (at least, the fate veterans among you) remember UBW, right? Even Saber's A-rank magic resist resulted in her will being bent to Medea's in about a day or two.
We have Medea's aunt right here.

Let's give Circe the command seals.

It's also worth noting that her first command seal was to make sure Archer "always keeps her safe, no matter what." Might be able to twist that into forcing his suicide somehow in conjunction with the second seal, like if we promise her safety if Archer An Heroic Spirits.

>>3378075
Yeah it's a bad thing but she's not a batshit insane psychopath that murders anybody that gets in her way or could pose a problem.
Like, err.
Us.
Also it's not really different from us forming our alliance with Truvi.
Except we have charisma and the willpower of a Hero.
>>3378079
Yeah, there's no doubt that Caster can rewrite her to be totally loyal to us.

Ok so, how about we rewrite her into feeling total loyalty towards us and Caster to the point where she would rather kill herself than betray us or our orders?

>>3378085
>she's not a batshit insane psychopath that murders anybody that gets in her way or could pose a problem.
Hey, we killed the first person in a duel and the second one for trying to swindle us, if anything we're just apathetic.

>>3378116
Anon we literally threw a guy through the air when he was attempting to shake his hand before we picked him up with a single hand by his face and attempted to decapitate him in a single strike.

>>3378129
Like I said, for being a swindling scumbag.

>>3378129
Heroes do as they do anon

>>3378142
As far as he was concerned it was a totally fair exchange.
"You resign from the war and we don't kill you"
Unfortunately for him he wasn't expecting our poker-face to be A+ ranked.

>>3378085
Even though we can do that, she's an absolute garbage master. We can rewrite her personality, but not her intelligence. It's probably worth asking Caster what she would think about having Archer as her servant.

>>3378129
Yeah, we killed the guy who posed an immediate threat to our life.

>>3378158
>As far as he was concerned it was a totally fair exchange.
You say that like you knew him well enough to take him at his word when he said he wouldn't kill us.

>>3378158
>"You resign from the war, become a member of Rider's crew via submission, and we use you until the end of the war."
ftfy

Anyway, I kind of want to wake her up to give her the choice after having Caster give her a Geas that states "I will die if I attempt to summon my servant" or something.
The ultimate sadistic choice.
>"Here are your options, you can choose to be totally loyal to me, I kill you here, or Caster here turns you into a snake so you can writhe in the dirt for the rest of your pitifully short life."

>>3378159
I mean, she's not bright, but for us to rule we must have loyal subjects, and how can a King have a more loyal subject than one who's only purpose is to be loyal?

>>3378181
>"I will force Archer to kill himself, under threat of my life, if I attempt to summon my Servant"
This is the specific Geass we'll be REQUIRED to apply before we wake her up.

>>3378194
That won't work.
We can also have a geas that knocks her out if she attempts to summon Archer too.
That would be a very small force acting upon Archer to An Heroic Spirit.
More general commands like PROTECT ME aren't very good to make, but it might push him over the edge if combined with KILL YOURSELF.
Even if it doesn't it should stun him long enough for us to be able to kill him ourselves.

>>3378181
The TRUE sadistic choice would be to rewire her such that she can't help but act outwardly like she's madly in love with Ogawara on the while retaining her actual personality on the inside, but it can't actually do anything to interfere. That way her consciousness has no choice but to watch as she slobbers over everything she hates and becomes a living embodiment of all her worst nightmares and Ogawara's fantasies.

But I think we can make better, less objectively evil use of her than that.

>>3378180
>"You resign from the war, become a member of Rider's crew via submission, and we use you until the end of the war."
No, anon. That's not the deal Keiseki offered you at all. It literally was give up the war and we won't kill you. He specifically said "you can go on living however you please." No mention of you joining Rider's crew.

>>3378213
That's fucking beautiful.
Kirei tier suffering causing.
Of course it's a little too evil and not too useful.

>>3378213
>Turn her into Ogawara’s waifu
Fucking genius, this gets mummy full support after we have her seppuku Archer-san

>>3378192
But if we make her loyal to us then we'd be obligated, as a ruler, to protect her like we do Matsuda, Truvi and Ogawara. Remember, "Et carita rex vivito populus."

>>3378227
Oh, then I'm retarded for not reading back.

>>3378213
Eh. Ogawara's at least decent looking. Thin, clear-skinned, androgynous enough to be a bishounen if he cleaned up his act. He just has awful social skills.
If anything, rewiring Munahara into Ogawara's waifu might help him reform.

>>3378232
That may be so, but what's the problem with protecting a loyal subject?
Sure she may have had a few misdeeds in the past but we can set her on the path of true enlightenment.

>>3378213
Perfect, a weird combination of Sadism and Compassion.
>>3378242
Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying we can't dispose of her like trash if we do that.

>>3378238
>If anything, rewiring Munahara into Ogawara's waifu might help him reform.
Did my Kirei-tier plan just turn into a possible Compassion choice? If we just rewrite her completely so that she's not suffering, they could actually be a happy couple. Of course, Kikuko will be wired to be completely loyal to us (in a platonic way) by Caster, and Ogawara will love us forever for hooking him up with an IRL waifu.

All we need to do now is plan how we handle Archer.

>>3378258
I mean, that's fine isn't it?
Disposing of her like trash won't be necessary, she'll live to serve us.
She'll throw her own life away if it would benefit us.
You could say that this garbage is self cleaning.

The Ogawara thing is a little strange to do in character and I hope you guys aren't seriously considering it.

>>3377939
>>[ ] Rewrite her personality into something more to your liking. (Absolute Loyalty towards Us and Caster, and a sense of friendship and loyalty (but not as strong as her loyalty to us) towards all of our other allies.)

A quick list

>>Pros of turning Kikuko into Ogawara’s soulmate
>Rewards a loyal and reasonably faithful ally of ours for feeding us and whatever else he’s done
>Placates that ally, given that he was summoned to an anime and literally just cooks for the Mc and fucks around on computers
>Frees Kikuko from her unfulfilling sadism and want of facile love from others
>Matches Kikuko with someone who, in a differed game reality, could have possibly been the equal of the invincible and infallible Rushorou
>Turns a useless THOT into a useful THOT
>Is probably a net good overall

>>Cons
>If done immediately does not resolve the Archer issue
>Is radically altering someone’s personality and magically inducing true love bad?

Idk man, seems like a net win to me so long as we geas Archer out of existence first.

>>3378317
Oh AND
>If either Yumigawa or Caster dies of non natural causes, she will instantly kill herself.

>>3378330
The one issue is that telling your servant that just happens to be a Greek Goddess that they are allowed to start fucking about with people's feelings and love miiiight not be a great idea.

>>3377939
>[ ] Wake Kikuko up and have a conscious discussion.


Might be too late to matter, but forcing her to change is just wrong guys. Let's let her wake up and dig her own grave.

>>3378361
This makes me want to avoid it like the plague. I don't want Circe going around and brainwashing people for her amorous plots.

>>3378378
Yeah, let's have a little talk with her. Let her think she can get out of it, for a little bit.

>>3378378
Just waking her up, without any contingencies like a Geas, sounds lije a bad idea.

>>3378361
I'm altering this to
>>[ ] Rewrite her personality into something more to your liking. (Absolute Loyalty and Devotion towards Yumigawa and Caster, and a sense of friendship and loyalty (but not as strong as her loyalty to us) towards all of our other allies. Should Yumigawa or Caster die of non natural causes she will immediately attempt to kill the perpetrator and then herself.)

The allies clause allows for Ogawara to attempt to make her fall in love with him but it doesn't do something as radical as forcing somebody to love someone else.
We're on thin ice with Truvi as is and doing something so utterly inhuman as "haha, you love the nerd now" might just make our entire camp collapse.
She'd know what was up and would tell the others.
>>3378391
We really don't have long.
Archer is on the way.
And waking her up ungeassed or anything is begging to be "ARCHER HELP!"d

>>3378391
If she wakes up, she can use her remaining command spell. We need to keep her muted and keep her from asking Archer for help telepathically, too.

>>3378419
Well, Archer is almost certainly on his way already. Waking her up is a bad idea. We should decide on what to do about Archer, and once that's through, then we can have a little chat.

>>3378399
>>3377939
This + we delete the sadism. I do suppose it’s the less creepy option....

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>>3378433
Alright yeah, deleting her sadism is a thing we should also include in our specifications.

>>3378448
This edit offends me on many levels, and I would like to formally declare my opposition to its existence.

>>3378468
Yeah, I'm a bit unpleased by the way the black background ate the outline in some places.
I might fix that later.
We are doing morally dubious things in a church though.

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>>3378448
I, as fellow anon, concur with >>3378468's stance.

How about we mind control Kikuko into thinking like this:
As long as Archer is protecting me like I've ordered him to, I'm in danger, even if my command seals disappear.
In order to truly be safe and no longer a target for other masters, I need to have no connection whatsoever to a servant in the grail war.
I must order Archer to "protect me by killing yourself" after explaining this line of thought to him.

Do you guys think this twisted logic would let us connect the first and last command spells as a two-stroke suicide command?
After that, we can rewrite her personality and turn her into Ogawara's waifu.

My only concern about rewriting her personality and trying to get her to control Archer is that she hasn't been doing that at all. She's been letting him call the shots as her protector, and he's not likely to start listening when she's had to use her command spells to make him listen before.

>>3378448
>Pictured: Yumigawa Rushorou, wearing his trophy from defeating Cid Ajisartous. (2004+15, colorized)

>>3378491
Yeah but the Ogawara waifu plan is totally over the top and Truvi will probably convince everyone to jump ship because we're clearly insane.
HERE'S A GIFT, IT'S A GIRL THAT TRIED TO KILL ME SO I ERASED HER PERSONALITY TO MAKE HER YOUR WAIFU.

Should we add a stipulation to remove the Geas after the War is over?

>>3378491
>After that, we can rewrite her personality and turn her into Ogawara's waifu.
Don't, it will convince Ogawara we're a psychopath.

>>3378514
>>3378542
Let's put the personality alteration aside for now, it's not as important imo.

Is it a good plan to kill Archer?

I still think my loyalty rewrite plan is the best plan so far.
The Ogawara plan is pretty fucking evil from an outsiders perspective.

>>3378559
Yeah, fuck him.
It was his own stupidity that got his master in this situation too.
Haha, what an idiot.

>>3378559
Yes. Fuck him. Would his abilities be useful if tamed? Sure. But I’m not going to try and tame the embodiment of the spirit of the Wild West. My next grand plan to Bind berserker to Rushorou preferably, with Truvi as a convenient backup plan

>>3378578
Cont. [/spoiler] will get around the need for Archer as an obligatory second servant[/spoiler]

>>3378578
>with Truvi as a convenient backup plan
You sure she would accept Truvi as her Master?

>>3378593
She’s a berserker. Frankly, I’m surprised a probable non-magus can handle her at all.

>>3378559
The best of plans.
We should have Kikuko on a timer rather than implanting a kill command so Archer can't interpret killing us immediately as "protecting her": he has x time to kill himself or she kills herself.

>>3378598
He can't, that's why she had a coffee date with the enemy.

It looks like we're agreed that we should kill Archer. Am I correct in thinking that there are no objections to warping Kikuko's logic and having her explain her thoughts to Archer (also wired so she won't listen to his attempts at reason, obviously) to try to get him to An Heroic Spirit?
We could also incorporate >>3378600 so that Archer has a limited amount of time to accept Kikuko's logic and protect her by suicide before she kills herself.

>>3378627
I'm all for killing archer. I just dont want to do it in the way given; even though it might be the best course of action.

>>3378627
I mean, if we go for absolute loyalty we can just say "when you see Archer, inform him that he has 2 minutes to kill himself before you kill yourself. Also use your command spell to order him to kill himself. Finish with "it was the only way they said wouldn't kill me by burning me from inside out""
If Archer doesn't believe the jape she dies pointlessly in your method.

>>3378644
The problem there is that Archer could find another way to "protect" her if it comes down to that. I don't know if you've ever seen Parasyte, but there's a scene early on where the parasite attached to the MC tells him that while he needs MC alive as a host to survive, in order to merely be alive MC doesn't technically need arms, legs, eyes, a tongue...
All Archer has to do to get around the command is disable her so she can't kill herself.
Archer has 2 minutes to do whatever the hell he wants after he lays eyes on Kikuko, and that also includes taking her, barreling through Caster's barrier and attacks like a madman with A rank magic resist, and taking us hostage to force Caster to speed-reverse the operation we did on Kikuko.

>>3378673
No anon.
We just have her say she's been cursed to die in two minutes.
Not that she's going to kill herself.
If the jape fails either way we either get absolutely nothing
Or somebody totally loyal to us.
Also, Caster is in her territory, we could just have her TP us again if it came to that.
Hell she could remote teleport us away from him.

>>3378684
She's an idiot compared to us but she's great at manipulating people's emotions.
It's worth a shot, at least.

>>3378673
>Archer has 2 minutes to do whatever the hell he wants after he lays eyes on Kikuko
So don't give him two fucking minutes, give him three seconds or something.

>>3378705
Yeah.
If this was a game of Poker, we own the Casino.
And the House. Always. Wins.

>>3378684
>>3378705
Overall, I like the basis of turning Kikuko into a time bomb that forces Archer to kill himself. Killer Queen has already touched that master!

Let's make it a geas that will just outright cause her death if the conditions aren't met. That way there's no bluff for Archer to call and Archer won't be able to try to get around it by disabling her.
Let's also reduce the timer since we want Archer to be forced into making a quick decision to kill himself with no other alternatives. Two minutes is also a lot of time for someone with the mobility of a Servant to rocket around the university and perhaps stumble on someone else at the university. Maybe 20-30 seconds at the absolute most.
Let's also mind control Kikuko so that after she explains the predicament to Archer, she uses a second command spell to repeat her first command exactly. Since it'll be the second spell for that command, Archer have no choice but to obey despite his magic resistance, and since the condition on the command is "no matter what" it won't matter that Kikuko will technically not be her master anymore.

The two keys here are to establish that the only way to protect Kikuko is for Archer to kill himself, and to then force Archer to protect her. I think we nail it with this plan.

>>3378713
We can do all that with mind controlling her.
AND with the mind control there's no chance of her thinking "hold on, he's probably going to kill me no matter what".
Mind control is the cleanest method.

>>3378713
Also, general commands are far weaker so even repeating the original command won't have the desired effect.

>>3378708
I should also add that Archer isn't likely to be good at melee given that The Man With No Name is remembered as a gunslinger. We might be able to take him with assistance from Circe as long as we don't let him use his NPs.

>>3378728
Would you kindly support my rewrite plan?

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>>3378399
Supporting, and we'll include the whole gambit to make Archer an hero

>>3378727
I don't think "always keep me safe, no matter what" isn't as broad as it might seem. It's a clear order to set Archer's highest priority, without regard to (rather than encompassing a large number of) the conditions he may be in. And if Archer doesn't kill himself, Kikuko will die, so there's really no reason to let that last command spell go to waste.

>>3378742
It's about as broad as you can possibly make a command outside of "obey me".

>>3378742
Kikuko only dies if we use geas instead of mind controls and bluffs.
Archer will have no reason to call the bluff either way.

>>3378746
Then again, he's not resisting the Spell.
In any case, if we made Kikuko use her last two Spells, he would be forced to act.
We already know his A-Rank Magic Resistance can nullify one Command Spell, so we have to use both by default.

>>3378771
She only has one spell left.

>>3378746
At the very least, I think it will be a difficult command to misinterpret given the situation we intend to put Archer in.

Do you at least agree that it's pointless to let the last command seal go to waste, so we should at least try to compound it with the other active command so that it has a chance to overcome Magic Resistance A? What do we have to lose?

>>3378751
I presume you want to keep the command spell - for what? If you're so certain Archer won't call the bluff, he'll die, the command spell will disappear, and we'll never get the chance to use it. I just don't see the benefit of trying to maintain it when the goal is to make it not matter anymore.

>>3378771
There's only one spell left. We have to try to compound it with another if we want to compel Archer to act.

>>3378775
>There's only one spell left. We have to try to compound it with another if we want to compel Archer to act.
Wait what now
Do it

>>3378775
Read my plan again
>loyalise Kikuko
>have her confront Archer and feed him our bullshit
>have her finish up by using her last command for the "kill yourself" order to make it even harder for Archer.
If the plan doesn't work, at the end of the day we've got a loyal follower rather than a blasted corpse.
Archer won't be able to fight when trying to resist a command spell either.

>>3378786
>trying to resist a command spell
That's the problem: his Magic Resistance lets him lolnope a single Command Spell, so we have to reinforce the original command to keep Kikuko safe no matter what, and manipulate him into killing himself to save her.

>>3378786
>Archer won't be able to fight when trying to resist a command spell either.
But he WILL. That's EXACTLY what Magic Resistance A lets servants do. Servants with A-rank magic resistance can't be compelled by a single Command Spell. We went over this just earlier today >>3375629

>>3378793
That original command is weak and vague.
It also automatically compounds with a much stronger "Kill Yourself" if he believes that's the only way to keep her alive.
Also they have to resist with every inch of their willpower, basically immobilizing them.

You two have almost the same plan. You both want to:
>Confront Archer
>Use Kikuko's last command spell to compel him to kill himself, with the threat that she will die if he doesn't do so within a certain amount of time.

The only difference I'm seeing is that ID Lock wants Kikuko to actually die if Archer refuses, while tealanon wants to brainwash Kikuko into issuing the command falsely.

ID-Lock, why do you feel it's necessary to make sure Kikuko dies if Archer refuses to kill himself?

>>3378804
His Magic Resistance substitutes for willpower. There's no reason to think he can't ignore the new command and follow just the old one. We HAVE to do this ID's way for the Spell to do anything at all.

>>3378809
My main concern isn't if Kikuko dies, it's the wording of the last command. It really doesn't matter to me if the bluff gets called. If the wording isn't that important either, then I'll support the plan we have and we can move on.

>>3378813
No we don't.
Look at Saber at the end of Zero.
First command spell has her already lifting the thing above her head screaming in anguish for Kerry to stop.
Resist doesn't mean ignore.

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You know, all we have to do to make it seem genuine is to put a painful curse on her, make her genuinely believe she is going to die.

>>3378813
>there's no reason to think he can't ignore the new command
There's every reason to think that considering by their very nature, vague indefinite commands hold less binding power than single action commands.

>>3378819
Alright then, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to ask you each to restate your plans exactly. If you're concerned about the wording, I'm concerned about the fact that it seems to change slightly over the course of this argument.

Tealanon, what exactly do you want Kikuko to tell Blondie?

ID-Lock, what exactly are the terms of the geas you want to put on Kikuko?

>>3378835
"Archer, I'm sorry. Caster has put a curse on me. They said that unless I order you to kill yourself, I'd die 40 seconds after I saw you by (painful thing (acid blood?)(suffocation?)(burning?)) So please, for my sake -Kill Yourself-"

>>3378835
The geas in my plan is as follows:
Once Archer and Kikuko meet, Kikuko must explain that she has 30 seconds to live and she can only be saved if Archer kills himself. Once the explanation is complete, the countdown will begin, and if Archer has not killed himself by the end then Kikuko will die.

>>3378870
>>3378879
30 seconds is far too long.
Make it 5.

>>3378835
>>3378870
I support this, Sweets. I don't consider requiring Kikuko's death to be of any particular importance, and I'm satisfied with this use of the command spell. Tealanon's plan accomplishes everything I want to accomplish and it's direct about it. My apologies for stalling the quest with pedantic argument.

>>3378870
The -Kill Yourself- was a command spepo by the way.
Bonus points if she's crying.