The 10 pound sledge is more versatile than your 20 pound dead weight could ever be.

need any amount of subtlety? Use a 20 lb...oh, wait.

>>11560329
what about climbing a wall?

But can a 20lb sledge Love? Can you have witty banter with it, without seeming insane? Can it do all that with a top hat and monocle?

>>11560367
hammer some spikes into it with the 20 lb. sledge.

>>11560367

break it down

20 lbs. Sledgehammers have terrible Streetwise scores.

>>11560357
Ten pounders are banned in my campaigns. Fucking overpowered pieces of shit.

>>11560370
Yes yes yes yes

>>11560362
butthurt thief fag

what if you need to listen at a door ?

>>11560357
Stop with your fucking edition warring

>>11560383
when streetwise fails, blunt force trauma prevails

Quite true OP, quite true.

>>11560395
>implying rogues are the only ones who listen at doors

>>11560370
Any 20 pound sledge that can't isn't worthy of the task.

>>11560395
Why listen at a door when you can instead listen at an open window? again 20 lb sledge comes through for you.

>>11560395
Then you listen at the fucking door, retard

That's not the thiefs job

>>11560387
All the proof I needed

>>11560420
OP said any edition

Can a 20 pound sledge perform diplomacy checks

Why would you need a thief to listen at a door?

They don't even have any abilities to make them good at it

>>11560445

Yes. You'd be surprised how readily people are willing to agree with someone holding a 20 pound sledgehammer.

>>11560445
threatening someone with massive head trauma is very diplomatic.

besides, that's the bard's job. If there's one thing a 20 lb sledge can't do, its sing.

>>11560445
Why perform diplomacy when you can beat them with a 20lb sledge til they tell you what you want to know.
Either that or use intimidate
>Tell me or i beat you with my sledgeco. 20lb sledge

>>11560420
>>11560425
>>11560449

There was a time in D&D that only thieves could listen at doors.

>>11560445

Nah, but my bard can.

Plus if you fail diplomacy you can fix it all with the sledgehammer.

>>11560479
That's dumb.

>>11560479
in that case
>>11560424
this is the best solution. no more door

>>11560471

>>11560479

Yeah, back when it was good.

>>11560479
Because a Fighter can't physically put his ear against a door?

Hey guys, there's a few magical traps here.

Oh, wait, none of us can see them.
Hi there TPK!

>>11560530
I hate to admit it, but fighters really aren't that smart.

That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork 20 Pound Sledge” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Thieves deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine thief from the gypsies for 2,400,000 rubles (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with her for almost 2 years now. She can pick slabs of solid steel open.

Gypsy trainers spend years working on a single thief and run it through exercises up to a million times to produce the finest thieves known to mankind.

Thieves are thrice as sharp as 20 pound sledges and thrice as sexy for that matter too. Anything a 20 pound sledge can open, a thief can open better. I’m pretty sure a thief could easily break into the highest-security vaults with a simple twist of the wrist.

Ever wonder why medieval banks never bothered conquering the gypsies? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the sneaky gypsies and their thieves of mass theft. Even in the Great Depression, bank repo men targeted the thieves first because their stealing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Thieves are simply the best lockbreakers that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for thieves:

(One-Handed Exotic Human)

1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 against doors and locks
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Human)

2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 against doors and locks
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of thieves in real life, don’t you think?

>>11560548
20 pound sledge is always willing to go first at any suspected door. You just gotta give him a little throw first.

20 pound sledge is a team player and will never steal from the other party members.

>>11560556
Wow, this copypasta really can be editied to fit ANY requirement................creepy

>>11560556
I'll admit it, I lol'd.

>>11560556

Well played good sir.

>>11560556
best use of that I've ever seen.

what do i need sledge for, if I'm a warrior and carry a warhammer with me all the time?
I break chests and boxes with it all the time!

>>11560556
I lost it at "Thieves of mass theft"
Good show, sir, good show.

>>11560626
See that's ok because you are already in a committed relationship with the 20 lb sledge's sexy cousins. They do the same work plus bash monsters besides. It's alright.

>>11560550
You are mistaken and also dumb

>>11560362
Use a silenced hammer.

>Kissinger, downers
That's right, 20lb. sledges make great negotiators!

>>11560641
.......Well though i may not agree with what you just said i'll defend to the death your right to say it.

I may be thinking of barbarians however. Theyre both equally "smash first ask questions later" in my experience.

>>11560445

just make it a 40 pound sledge and you don't need diplomacy

>>11560662
No, fighters are usually smart

A lot of fighters use combat expertise, which requires at least 13 int

And mine has 16


You probably are thinking of barbarians, which is why you are mistaken

>>11560666
in the land of the 20 pound sledges, the 40 lb sledge is king.

>>11560678
Aaaah yes, combat expertise. My fighter has that, I don't know how i missed that flaw in my own logic.
Curses, 10 points from griffindor it seems

Fighters generally fill the role of "Intelligent combatant" where as barbarians are "dumb muscle"

Fighter is a classic choice for party leader as well

>>11560703
20 lb sledges, also known as Mauls, work well with fighter feats as well. Its like a fighter is wielding a thief with every swing!

>>11560730
........tell me more. Its good hearing other people's experience with fighters, it'll give me some tips for future reference.

>>11560747
well for starters, what build have you got for your fighter so far?

>>11560738
My party has a fighter and a thief in it. It would be hilarious to see that

Wait, guys, wait!

What if a thief character uses a 20 pound sledge?

...Mother of God...Captcha says 1855 carcasses...

>>11560774
Thats a point. Tell us how you'v set up your fighter and I guess we can tell you how to go with it.

>>11560747
Well, I'm playing a fighter in a game right now, with UNGODLY STATS. I am amazing at rolling.

He has 16 intelligence, is the party leader, and (at this point) is the strongest member of the party, though once the mages get wicked, he'll fall behind.

I play him as an unarmored 2-handed fighter, which is working pretty awesome so far.
It's Pathfinder, and I took the 2-Handed fighter class features from the APG, which trades Armor training for some bonuses, which works for me, since he doesn't wear armor anyway

He's actually depressed and an alcoholic, but everyone thinks that the drinking is a comedic device, so they're not worried.

I also mentioned how awesome I am at rolling.
At least two thirds of my rolls in that game were twenties.

I did a bunch of badass things, like ripping open a golem and tearing out the gem that was animating it.
Also running up a giant's axe and cutting his arm off at the elbow.

>>11560795
Thats because the ensuing explosion would take out a town

>>11560810
the resulting explosion would make Hiroshima look like a wet firecracker.

>>11560806
I'm assuming your guy will have many more levels that mine:
Lvl5 human fighter
str16, dex12, con15, int13, wis13, cha13
35hp
feats: endurance, diehard, quickdraw, combat expertise, powerattack, improved unarmed attack
Sorta got him going as a heavy armoured fighter to make up for low hp. Longsword, heavysteel shield, fullplate. Recently got him an enchanted bastard sword, because DM told us we can pay to train in the proficiency rather than wait to level and select it as a feat.

>>11560862
>improved unarmed strike

Why?

>>11560881
Incase he gets disarmed so he can punch like the fist of the north star?

>>11560881
Why the fuck not?

>>11560862
Listen, friend, the answer is obvious.

Use a 20 pound sledgehammer. That's all you'll ever need!

>>11560862
Looks OK i guess. Combat expertise is always a must for fighters. Adding that onto your already huge AC though is a dick maneuvre i would love to see

>>11560862
Level 4 human fighter
Str 20
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 16
Wis 15
Cha 17
40 HP

We're also using the "Defense Bonus" variant, so unarmored is actually viable

Most of what I've accomplished has been through insanely good rolling

>>11560862
>level 5

Deep Slumber, he is now useless and going to be CDGed.

Item familiar? intelligent item?
I think I'm going to make one in the next game a join.

I like this thread...

>>11560937
Its sickening how much better your character is. But then again, you're on pathfinder, im on faerun3.5. Dunno if it makes a difference or not, but whatever.

>>11560956
...it really hits the nail on the head.

This many posts and no hammertime?

I am disappoint, /tg/

>>11560931
>Combat expertise is always a must for fighters. Adding that onto your already huge AC though is a dick maneuvre i would love to see

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO.

"My high AC got higher" isn't a recipe for enemies missing you more, it's for them NOT ATTACKING YOU AT ALL AND RAPING THE REST OF YOUR PARTY BECAUSE YOU JUST MADE YOUR OFFENSE FAIL.

>>11560967
Pathfinder has something to do with it, what with the significant power boost for fighters

There's also my rolling really really well

>>11560967
No difference really. Sorry, you just suck at rolls

>>11561008
Disregard him, he sucks cocks

>>11560997
>really really well

understatement

Stealth and subtlety are apparently worthless. Why all that shit we teach to counter-terrorism teams about stealth, properly breaching without using a shotgun or a charge, effectively taking down unaware or hindered opponents as quickly as possible can all be done by a 20lb sledge. While we're at it, how about effective negotiation or intelligence gathering? 20lb sledge of course. Effectively finding ambushes and traps before they're sprung? 20lb sledge of course.

OP, you're a fucking retard.

>>11560937
So for your stats you rolled two 18s, two 17s, a 16 and a 15, and you claim that like a third of your d20 rolls are 20s? Do you roll on the table? Has anyone become suspicious yet?

>>11560862
I think your guy is fairly well laid out so far. Trying to think what other feats he'll want at lvl6

>scurviest appointed
get scurvy, receive promotion

Also, people still roll for stats? Amazing.

>>11560967
Pathfinder just made my 18 Str become 20 Str, really, but there are a few neat feats and class abilities too

>>11561037
I havent thought that far ahead myself actually...........its troubling

>>11561023
>OP specifically said D&D
>use modern day examples.
>call op a retard.

Yeah because our special forces routinely delve into the temple of elemental evil.

>>11560977
If you're used to heavily armored fighters running up to the enemy to protect their allies and then the DM just has them passing up your fighter to go attack the squishies, you're just stuck with a shit DM. They can meta game too, y'know.

>>11561061
Dude have you SEEN afghanistan?

>>11560573
20lb Sledge is a cool guy and doesnt affraid of anything!

>>11561026
I roll on the table, in plain sight.

They are all just sort of wowed.

The only time I don't roll incredibly well is when I use this one orange d20 of mine.

Every single time I have rolled it it has come up as a 1. I stopped using it.

When the DM was going to roll and attack against me, I handed him the awful die.
It was a 20.

That die just hates me.

>>11561061
The principles remain much the same. You're entering an unknown area filled with hostiles, in many cases the monster's actions and motivations fit with the counter-terrorism idea.

'Lets spring the trap with the hammer!"
"Nothing could ever go wrong."

Shark, do not take improved unarmed strike. Take Weapon Focus

20 lb sledges still don't do sneak attack damage...

>>11561107

That's why you get the fighter to do it.

Wait, 20 pound sledge made fighters useful!

>Hammer sushi
>Right you are, captcha.

>>11561118
2d12
Crit x4

Don't need it

>>11560862
>endurance, diehard, combat expertise, improved unarmed attack
What I've just listed are feats that you should need to get rid of and trade for something else.

>>11561023
>>11561061

Oh yah a 20 lb sledge of course, why does anyone in Mouseguard sneak away from owls and crows when all the have to do is use a 20 lb sledge oh right a mouse can't possibly lift it

OP, you're a fucking retard.

>>11561138
You're retarded, he needs combat expertise

>>11561095
except that D&D isn't that subtle. Other than traps, its rather straightforward, and every example the OP gave would work in game terms.

>>11561107
he should have threw the hammer. 20 lb sledge is more than happy to go it alone for the good of the party!

>>11561140
You're an idiot

>>11561136
As I recall, official stats for sledgehammers in d20 is as per warhammer. So 1d8/x3.

>>11561152
>implying that Combat Expertise is good
It's not.

Can a 20 lb sledge make a bluff check?

>Barbarian walk up to door, leans 20lb sledge against it
>Waits 10 seconds says "Sledge hears nothing"
>*hammers door in* room full of Ogre Magi

>>11561165
well you could bluff if you are or are not holding a 20 pound sledge behind your back so in a way yes.

>>11561154
D&D is exactly as subtle as the group makes it. A group relying on effective surprise, speed, and awareness is much more effective than one that just slams through every challenge. Not to mention that a 20lb sledge isn't going to do fuck all to many doors. Even with a wooden door, we're looking at hardness five, which means it's going to take at least a few rounds to hammer through it. Open Lock is a full round action, a rogue with a decent bonus can pop open a lock in six seconds.

>>11561175
>"Sledge hears nothing"
>MY NEXT FUCKING CHARACTER. GENIUS.

I am officially naming my character's 20 pound sledge "Party Rogue."

>involuntary marimba

>>11561180
I'm asking if the hammer itself could make a bluff check.

...I feel like making a 20 pound sledge construct for use in my next campaign.

>>11561164
You're wrong.

Also it's a pre-req for a lot

Stop being stupid

>>11561175
>>11561140
>>11561023

asspained rogues, mad at their sudden irrelevance.

Wait, what happens if you give the party thief a 20 pound sledgehammer?

>>11561196
Unless he's going to be tripping--and I'm guess that he's not going to because he lacks the feat--he doesn't really need Combat Expertise. Especially since it sucks.

>>11561205

20 pound sledge kills the rogue.

20 pound sledge hates competition.

>raspier of

Also, rogues are the only ones that can actually find most traps. Enjoy having every trap in the dungeon depleting your resources as you make your through.

>>11561232

Clerics can actually find traps as well.

Cleric with 20 pound sledge is your rogue.

>Havas understand

>>11561232
actually, in 3.5 D&D a cleric will have a higher wisdom and will spot traps easier than the rogue randomly, and a Wizard will search for them better. Spot and Listen are wis skills and Search is Int.

There are also things that a 20-lb. sledge can do that a rogue would not be able to do:
- survive without air for six days straight
- survive being submerged in water for a month
- be repeatedly struck against a wall until a tunnel formed

Screw you, lazy rogues.. you're outgunned and outclassed.

>>11561232

and elves. It's an Elvish sledgehammer. Now what?

>>11561069
...if somebody adopts a defensive stance right in front of you, are you going to fucking stand around and engage him?

No, you aren't. You're going to go for the people who are less protected.

>>11561261
You forget a key point in the matter: they don't have the ability that arbitrarily lets them find traps unless they want to waste spell slots on it.

>>11561288
How many traps do you reasonably expect to find in a given day?

20lb sledge of returning...For higher level games.

>>11561295
D&D was designed with the idea of dungeons being loaded with traps in mind. They're meant to be every bit as big a threat as the monsters.

so what if you...

Take a 20 pound sledge, drill a hole through the handle, then tie a rope through it?

>>11561314
Add in a few other traits:
>of Mercy
- does subdual damage on command
>of Wounding
- when mercy doesn't send the proper message
>of Flaming Burst
- when wounding seems too subtle

>>11561342
You find out that throwing a 20lb sledge is not easy.

>>11561314
No that is what u make the thief go do.

>>11561342
You have a cheap boat anchor?

>>11561342
Improvised grappling hook?

>>11561359
>20 lb. sledgehammer of returning
Thief, go fetch the hammer. Its down that five-hundred foot cliff, I think.
>20 lb. sledgehammer of flaming burst
When I give the signal, which is striking them in the groin with the sledgehammer, you set him on fire, thief.
>20 lb. sledgehammer of wounding
When he's curled up on the ground after I strike him and he's already on fire, give him a few boots to the head to add to his misery.
>20 lb. sledgehammer of mercy
Nah. I'll just thwack him with the handle. He seems a nice enough guy.

*Intelligent/item familiar sledge hammer equips monocle of trap finding and triggers trap.*
any magical item can replace a rogues trap finding ability.

>>11561426
A barbarian with a death wish works pretty well too.

sorry rouge^.

No one has explained how a sledge hammer can replace stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation (and no, threatening them with a sledge is not an answer, anything worth negotiating with will just waste you for that). It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.

>>11561455
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE 20 POUND SLEDGE!

>>11561455
I think your fun is broken. Come back when you get it fixed.

>>11561455
wow. you are butthurt.

We're saying that "Stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation" are not needed when you have the might of a 20 pound sledge on your team. Anyways, that's what the bard is for. Rogue is unnecessary and not a credit to team

>>11561489
But this isn't fun, it's just stupid.

>>11561455
Get a Bard, he does it better.

>>11561501
Grasp rod, remove from ass.

>>11561501
is your ass a type 1 bag of holding? because you seem to have a lot of immovable rods shoved in there.

>>11561455

Wizard 16 strength carries 20 Sledge. Now wizard thief without multiclassing.

>Captcha unloved artists

>>11561526
Not to worry, 20 pound sledge can help with those too!

Sledgehammer of Disjunction

>>11561526
hohohohoho, this made me chuckle

but seriously who plays D&D seriously(/efficiently) with an expectation of long term survival?

just play in a manner that keeps you and the others in your group amused and you cant go wrong.

that and you can always disguise the sledgehammer as a walking stick or other non-threatening/diplomatic item.

>>11561561
Hey, that'd take care of those magical traps that were mentioned earlier, too

>>11561455
>No one has explained how a sledge hammer can replace stealth, subtlety, and skill with negotiation (and no, threatening them with a sledge is not an answer, anything worth negotiating with will just waste you for that).
Allow me the honor enlightening you.
A rogue dressed for a dungeon crawl will be covered in knives and anti-trap gear, plus his own supply of weapons. A sledgehammer can be disguised as a tool. So, we've covered stealth, as sledgehammers don't talk, make more noise than you force them to or engage in inter-party bickering. Plus, they rarely, when ever, steal from fellow party members. So, +1 to the hammer.

Subtlety: a lost art with a man covered in maneuverable armor, weapons and tools; to a tool, its a given - it will not be lying to people, nor trying to gain the upper hand in deals it makes. Its very much an honest device. +1 to the hammer, again.

Skill with negotiation? Easily done, once again, in the hammer's favor. A rogue requires either guile or a reputation, frequently both. A sledgehammer has an existing stock of legends, stories and folklore, all well-established by every in-game culture. It needs no boasts or bardic sagas - every major industry has use of them, in some capacity, so it has a wide skill set, or at least, wide application thereof. Rogues? Plenty of skills, sure - but not where it'll count the most: dependability, honesty, trustworthiness. Its got integrity, and integrity goes a long way.
>It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.
Wizards with sledgehammers? Now, we're cooking with gas.

>>11561499
Why wouldn't they be necessary? It's more preferable to spend anywhere from 15-3 rounds breaking down a door (depending on damage rolls) while alerting everything in creation to your presence when you could potentially pop it open in one with no noise and still maintain the element of surprise? It's more preferable to take damage from potentially dozens of traps so you can smash them with a sledge (an act I might add that doesn't work on magical traps) when you could bring a rogue along and find them before they activate? It's more preferable to be caught unaware by an ambush when you could have had another chance to see it before it was sprung? It's more preferable not to have an effective ace in the hole with a well planned first strike and be forced to start combat with the enemies at an advantage (remember, you already alerted them to your presence, they've prepared)? This premise is retarded. Also, bards suck harder than rogues.

>>11561455
stealth- intelligent hammer is tossed is places in a castle or warcamp and the party leaves, The item is retreaved at a later time and tells all.

subtlety- in a fucking D&D game, you gotta be shitting me.
skill with negotiation by force- "yeah see my buddy sledge over there, he wants to beat the sweet ever living crap out of you and open your skull like a pinata.
I may be able to talk him out of it if you cooperate with us.
skill with negotiation not by force - negotiate a truce? hope the rouge has skill points up the ass to talk some sense into 2 people who have been doing this their entire life and running kingdoms.
what you want to negotiate/haggle? have the sledge hammer offer his services to take care of any errands he might need done.
want to negotiate with a dragon? no.... do what he says or he will eat you.
It's a retarded premise. If we had went with "wizards can replace rogues", we'd have been cooking with gas, but this is just stupid.

HOW I LOVE THEE,
YOU WONDERFUL SLEDGE,
YOU MAKE MY HEART FLUTTER,
WHENEVER YOU SMASH,
A MAN IN THE HEAD.

You could have an Intelligent Sledgehammer listen to the door! :D

>>11561580
>Also, bards suck harder than rogues.

You just went full retard.

>>11561580
>15-30 rounds
Don't take out the door; take out the lock or the hinges.

So much for spending the afternoon battering the door down.

>>11561603
Where are the rules for that? All I see is a statement that wooden doors have 5 hardness and 15 hitpoints.

>>11561599
They do, they have less skills, less utility in combat, and in exchange they get some minor buffs for a party and a spell list that quickly loses relevancy.

>>11561580
sorry rogue, the party has decided to give your treasure shares to the 20 pound sledge.

My god, summer /tg/ really is stupider.

Can a 20 lb sledge have the mono and exterminator upgrades?

>>11561669
what are those from

>>11561627
There are rules for the hardness and HP of various materials depending on their thickness. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out!

>>11561689
DH

>>11561627
Pg. 167, PHB 3.5, upper right corner.
Pic related; its you being wrong.

oh noes a locked door. wait dont we have Acid flasks? hey what about those gloves of rusting. hey wizard do you have anything that can rod the wood, bend metal, or melt this door? of wait you have a invisible servant that can appear on the other side by looking through the key hole and open it from the other side.

>>11561714
Hardly, it just says the DM can ad-hoc the DCs for weak locks. Says nothing about targeting hinges or the like.

>>11561716
You're overcomplicating things.

Try pouring water under the door, then looking at the reflection, instead. Same concept, but it works even if the keyhole is blocked by.. I dunno.. anything.

>>11561716
Oh noes, a locked door, let me try acid against a 5 hardness, let me use a 1/day and highly expensive magic item, let me waste spell slots that could be better spent on an encounter, let me pray there is a key hole that goes through to the other side visibly so I can waste a spell slot. GG, moron.

>>11561732
when targeting an unmoving item, dont you auto hit? dont you deal max damage?
target hing, use sledge hammer to break IT not the DOOR

SLEDGE IS CREDIT TO TEAM

>>11561752
>Acid
>Hardness
You really are stupid.

Someone make OP post into a picture.

>>11561755
Hinges have the hardness of iron and no, you don't do max damage, though you do auto-hit.

>>11561760
Acid damage doesn't void hardness, sonic damage does.

>>11561752
if your party relies on a rouge that much to 'OPEN A LOCKED DOOR' by all rights they should be killed.

>>11561732
I see you didn't bother to check the actual page, and just blindly stared at the image without grasping the actual concept. As your Aspergers' appears to be a significantly advanced case, play with yourself while you look at this picture, from the page in question, in the area of the page mentioned previously.

Again, pic related; you being wrong, still.

>>11561776
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks

First fucking sentence.

>>11561752
Don't blunt weapons also do full damage to things like skeletons, constructs and living statues?

Pesky engineer? Take care of it with the 20 pound sledge!

>>11561779
>he pointed out that I don't know the rules, he must have aspergers.

Sorry bub, you're wrong. There are no rules for targeting the hinges of doors. Also, crowbars and portable rams fall under that "HEY, WE REALLY WANT FUCKING EVERYTHING TO KNOW WE'RE HERE" and are only viable if your DM only throws carefully selected level balanced challenges at you.

So can I add mono and exterminator to a 20 lb sledge or not?

For a moment, OP, I managed to forget what a shithole /tg/ has been lately. Thank you for that.

>>11561805
That just specifies that damage isn't divided before hardness, it says nothing of ignoring hardness.

>>11561776
sonic damge you say, I'm sure a caster such as a wizard, bard, cleric, sorcerer, or warlock should have something or an adequate inventory of magical items that mimic this effect that they are able to use.

>>11561776
I hope you're not the same guy I've posted to twice about. That.. would be kind of funny, mostly kind of sad.

>>11561821

If one of my players said he wanted to target a hinge, I would decide if it was exposed or not, and give him bonuses as such. DM's rules trump all.

>>11561845
Enjoy wasting resources when the rogue could do it for free.

>>11561850
Must state it again, it doesn't void hardness. The damage is just applied in full and then reduced by hardness as normal.

>>11560329
Our paladin tried to set off a trap at range with an eleven foot pole.....light bolt to the hole party and everything else in the halway

>>11561858
>when the rogue could do it for free.

But that's just it, having another party member splits loot and treasure further. It's hardly free.

>>11561829
check with your DM but yeah I'm pretty sure.

Playing DH and hunting heretics? use a POWER SLEDGE.

>>11561876
You make it sound like you could cut down on party members. You're going to have the same number of people regardless, you're a group. And rogues contribute in a variety of ways, as you still haven't explained how this sledge invalidates their other talents or their in combat contributions.

>>11561876

AND THAT'S ASSUMING THE ROGUE HASN'T NEEDED ANY SPELLS OR ITEMS SPENT ON HIM.

>>11561866
thats why you need a sledgehammer of disjunction. One tap and that magic trap is gone

>>11561897
No you Mr. Rage, I had assumed you possessed of more foresight than this.

>>11561906
That's why you need a sledgehammer of a 9th level spell that covers a wide area at will.

>>11561821
Ah. Apparently, you're also unclear about:
- object size in relation to AC
- object hardness
- intuitive thinking
Its cool. Thinking am hard, so I've provided you with a chart, to .. y'know.. help you along, until you can fake it.

Given that different doors will have different sizes (ie: the lair of a huge red dragon's front door will be vastly different in scale and materials than say, an Orcish bakery or a Gnmish fish market, to cite a few ultra-common locales), the idea at work is to try out the ol' brain and give it a whirl.

You're ill-equipped to handle this, I know.. but you'll overcome the more public aspects of your handicap, eventually.

>>11561924
Sledgehammer of dispell magic?

doesn't matter.

>>11561876

Thief's cut is 1000 GP from last game..that sure buys a lot of replacement items...but Most of the thief's functions are covered by said sledge....

>>11561913

I'M JUST BORED AND A LITTLE DELIRIOUS.

>locksmith Kazunori

OP, how does it feel to be fucking awesome?

>Need to foil a trap? Spring it at range with a 20 pound sledge.

The trap springs open, releasing a hungry-looking rust monster.

>Open a door? Break it open with a 20 pound sledge.

The door splinters open, revealing a nest of rust monsters.

>unlock a chest? Just jam a spike into the hinge and hit it with a 20 pound sledge.

Some sadistic bastard left a rust monster in the chest.

>Need to pick a pocket? why bother, just hit them with a 20 pound sledge then rifle their pockets while they are out cold.

In their pockets you find:
2 pencils
1 ball of string
8 raisins
1 rust monster

>need to disrupt a perfectly balanced counterweight? hammer throw a 20 lb sledge at it.

the counterweight was the only thing holding the wooden portcullis to the rust monster pens closed.

>>11561936
That picture seems irrelevant, it hasn't disproven anything I've said. You can sling insults all you like, but until you prove yourself right, you've accomplished nothing but making your lifespan effectively shorter by wasting this time.

I'm not seeing anything for hinges. They're part of the door, an object that has its own rules for being broken.

Listen.

You don't even need to attack the door to get in. This is medieval times. At most all you'll need to do is break off the doorknob with a little bit of force, then you can open the door. is not rocket science

>>11561946
They are not covered by said sledge, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Everything the sledge does cannot be done without considerable risk and considerable noise. You may scoff and say that subtlety in D&D is pointless, but subtlety is the difference between them being ready for you with their potions readied, their ranged weapons aimed, and their best buffs in use and them sitting around playing cards.

>>11561970
In your world, could someone break, say... an ice cube?

A single inch of solid ice, commonly found in a beverage, typically a frosty one.

...wait, no?

Holy hot dicks from Hell, you've got unbreakable ice cubes!

Contact every bard in the region, this shit is some serious epic saga stuff going on over here!

..or you could ... y'know... consult a chart.. or wing it.

So... ice cubes. Yep.

>>11562001
not if you breach like a swat team with the sledge or ram.

Have the fighter breach with the ram, the wizard throw in the smoke or the flash then just enjoy your surprise round.

>>11562019
One room cleared and a dungeon of well aware monsters to go. Or are all the adventures in your games one encounter long?

>>11562001
>Barbarian "Thief" bangs on door with sledge for 15
>Rounds. Party steps back into hall buffs up, knocks
>"Gets ready" monsters(ETC) open door to
>Investigate. Best thief ever.

You're all missing the best advantage of the party thief.

Dragon bait. Dragons... they will not be baited with a 20 lb. sledge.

>>11562025
Are you suggesting just letting the party rogue assassinate everyone while the rest of the party sits around and jerks off? Because that's significantly more boring.

>>11562025
well fuck by that logic the monsters would be well aware anyways.

Combat is a loud, noisy thing. Wizards chanting spells, Fighters clashing steel against steel, its noisy as fuck and they would have been aware anyways.

>>11562037
Buy glitter and apply it with some glue.
Congratulations, you've got a semi-blinged out sledgehammer.

Which is why any character with training in theivery in 4th edition can defeat those things.

Quite Frankly I rather like my Warlock Thief

Captcha also enjoys the 20 lbs sledge theif.

>teethe and

Misery Lots of Misery on the floor

According to the elite array (you know, the stat array used to playtest the game), a fighter is going to have a 15-17 strength, depending on race. So compared against the DC 18 of a door to be broken down, he's going to succeed around 25-30% of the time. A rogue with a 15-17 dex and full ranks in open lock is going to succeed around 30-35% at first level against a common lock, next level those figures rise by 5% each and continue to rise, while the fighter's wont rise until 4th level.

>>11562037
GNome illusionist..Now sledge looks like tasty thief.

>>11562055
Combat can be considerably quieter than slamming down a door.

>>11561858
your telling me a magic user doesn't have plenty of scrolls on hand in case something like this came up?

your telling me there is a ceiling that is slowly coming down and a door needs to be opened and no one in the group bothered to buy something to help them in any way shape or form?
your telling me the group didn't stock up on magical items that could outright nip this in the ass?

your telling me they didn't pull together can raise 3k worth of gold (unless they are mud farmers adventuring in the greatest drought and famine the world has ever seen and making gold worthless)
to buy a chime of opening?

your telling me the players are that stupid they can't think ahead?

>>11562056
no!

Gold plated 20 pound sledge!

>>11561963

Everbright enchantment.

Smack the rust monster with the 20lb sledge whilst bellowing a throaty laugh.

D&D, any edition, only holds up until you realize the party sledge can easily be replaced by a 20 pound hobbit and some thieves' tools.

>>11562079
You're telling me those resources couldn't be better spent?

>>11562055
After consulting a few relevant charts, hearing anything in a dungeon seems to be a whole lot of hard work, really.
Every room you've cleared, if you've left it devoid of life, contains zero people to help sound the alarm.

Add in every intervening wall, door and passageway and its officially improbable to be heard further away than a couple of hundred feet, unless you've got some seriously solid-statted critters tuning in to every mouse fart and bat crapping, all day, every day.

>>11562076
Not really. what's the noise of one loud bang of a door collapsing vs several loud bangs of fireballs going off or the death screams of the dying goblinoids

>>11562097
>unless you've got some seriously solid-statted critters tuning in to every mouse fart and bat crapping, all day, every day.

At which point stealth would hardly work anyway.

>>11562097
> implying any but the most idiotic monsters or the most sublimely lucky parties will be able to achieve 100% lethality in every room of a dungeon.

>>11562108
Potentially minutes of banging and the monsters in the room sounding the alarm versus an average of 6-18 seconds of quick fighting.

>>11562116
Exactly. My vote is to replace the party rogue with a sledgehammer and give the unholy listening post creatures a severe headache, followed by a more severe headache.

>>11562120
So, your adventuring group is prone to leaving survivors behind it?

notsureifstrategicallyincompetent.jpg

>>11562131
several minutes. Its a fucking wooden door not a fucking bank vault

Captcha: hot naughty
It seems all this talk of banging is turning captcha-tan on

>>11562025
Right, and combat with the monsters wouldn't alert everybody in the dungeon anyways?

>>11562188
see
>>11562097
Check out the DC increases for hearing something loud, after filtering it through multiple stone walls, unless you're playing in the Pathfinder module "Escape from the Paper-Mache Hacienda".

>>11562159
1d8 damage versus a hardness of 5 or around a 25% success rate for breaking it down (which I might add does not need the sledge).

>>11562188
You ever take a sledge to something? You can produce sounds in the low gunshot range for noise. Fighting is a fuckload quieter.

>>11562218
Why would it be filtering through multiple walls? There are monsters in the halls and that's where you'd be hitting the door.

>>11562131
monsters are moot. they would be slaughterd, the door is the problem and the sledge hammer has solved it as well as replaced the rouge.
rouges are now obsolete, his job has been split up between the rest of the party, and 1 sledge hammer.
there will be no back stabbing or stealing from party members.

as I see it, the person playing the rouge should man up, toss his character sheet away and make something a little more useful, like a halfling monk.

instead of tossing obstacles l in my way try telling me 20 things a rouge can do that a sledgehammer can't. and they have to be useful.

>>11562219
>You can produce noise in the low gunshot range
I have seen no rules for this. As >>11561821, rules are important. Intuitive thinking isn't.

>>11562159

>captcha-tan

My god.

I must see her.

>>11562242
You're clearly not interested in actually listening. I'm done with this thread. You heard it here first, stealth is worthless.

>>11562237
Behind every door, monsters, monsters everywhere.

Does your GM have any non-monster-filled rooms in his dungeons?

>>11562251
Seconded.

Regarding the OP: rogue backstabs can turn the tide of a fight, man. Your sledge hammer just can't compare.

Argument one: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Thief.
>Proven time old tested "The norm"

Argument two: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and any character w/ 20lb sledge.
>Higher survivability in combat, sledge replaces more >than half the functions thief provided.


Argument three: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and 20ln sledge.

>Loosing 4th party member for combat. Retains 50+% of thief functionality. More risk more reward and experience for party.

>>11562267
Make a Hide check.
Apply Power Attack.
Reap benefits.

>>11562267
bard, animate object
send him in first

>>11562272
Its also cheaper to feed, house in the local inn and doesn't catch the attention of the city guard when it crawls out to do its own side quests.

Can sledgehammers detect traps?

>>11562279
>half-orc fighter in plate mail making a hide check

OH YEAH WHAT COULD GO WRONG

>>11562297
Throw it down a suspect corridor; if it can be retracted by a length of cord tied around its handle, its more likely safe-ish to walk in. Bounce it off of doors to check if its also trapped; if it detonates into geckos and confetti, the door is probably trapped.

>>11562267
Tell that to the plants, constructs, undead, oozes, and other enemy rogues.

>>11562297

Yes

>>11562305
Or, you could hand it to someone wearing less of an appliance store.

Your call.

>>11562297
doesnt need to, he will set them off, he is a creature now and he weighs 20 lbs.

>>11562339
>Wizard with shit-tier attack bonus and a staff trying to sneak attack

SURE, WHY NOT?

>>11562365
you hear that guys, he is finally coming around.

This is glorious. I am imagining a summit of D&D classes, the representative of the rogue droning on and on about how they deserve a greater cut of the party shares, when the bored barbarian representative interrupts.

"This is preposterous. Anything a rogue can do, a 20 pound sledgehammer and a few spikes can do."

Silence blankets the room for a few moments as the realization sets in.

Then pandemonium as each class representative responds in their own way to this realization.

>>11562258
It is when half the party is wearing full plate.

>>11562365
Wow, you mad.
>Wizard with Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength and Haste.
I'd rather he gave it two shots to the Half-Orc Fighter, all told. In his hands, its more likely to both hit and do damage, as well as keep my meatwall in a more strategic location.

>>11562380
Further proof that barbarians are actually geniuses.

>>11562380
that gave me chills.

wait. dire sledgehammer....... or even .... a maul

>>11562333

Enlighten me as to how this is done.

You see a long dark hallway. In the middle of the hallway, you see many skeletons resting on what appears to be a pile of sticks. At the end of the hall is a door that looks like it's been opened recently. Or at least a lot more recently than anything else in this dungeon.

How do you detect this trap with a sledge hammer without being hurt?

>>11562403
its a description of this thread, really

>>11562428
What if you also applied a Symbol of Fear/Pain/Sleep/Death to the heads of it?

Potent weapon is more potent.

>>11562429
is there a spell that lets wizards alter magnetic fields?

If so have the wizard launch the sledge down the hallway like a railgun round.

>>11562457
Telekinesis could do that, in theory. Ditto most of the Bigby's-based spells.

thx OP, my next thief will be an enchanted sledgehammer with a higher Ego score than the poor sod carrying it

captcha: liability SS

>>11562440
The rogue sputters about how useful he is while everyone else pretty much agrees that the sledge is better?

Yeah, that is pretty representative.

>>11562429
depending on the level of magic and the party I would throw the sledge at various suspect areas(Spot). Dragging it back as needed. You can add various magic to this as needed.

>>11562478
Sorry, I was trying to bait an edition war when I made this thread.

you're welcome. Glad you had fun.

>>11562429
animate object (target hammer) have it walk the path.
any pressure plate needing 20 lbs of pressure will be set off and any sensors.
magical traps DC 20+: Detect magic - study to determine its information, spell craft check to determine its full ability (rune, firetrap, sigil)
the wizard then explains how to get bass the traps.

if all else fails send in the monk to set off all traps and not take a single point of damage.
have the mage cast summon creature, and have them set them off. have the unseen servant drag a heavy item across the room.

did I miss anything?

>>11562506
well you said "any edition" there wasn't anything that pitted one edition against the other. There was however enough to pit rogues against the classes that matter, so we took up that fight instead.

>>11562518
Unseen Servants can only manipulate 20 pounds or less, but can drag up to a hundred pounds; if the trap is set for a higher weight value, it'd be worthless. Citation available.

>>11562457

Excellent. There's a hole in the door now. You can see something metallic through the hole, but can't quite make it out.

You are now short a sledgehammer and have not yet triggered the pressure plate trap that's under the skeletons. You also have no idea it's there and will trigger it when you go to inspect the door.

>>11562525
Stupid edition war? Don't worry, 20 pound sledge replaces the rogue in both!

(was joking)

unseen servent fails, mong goes in and sets off all the traps, and avoids them skillfully.

did I miss anything else??

>>11562549
the skeletons will trigger it when they move, won't they?

>>11562549
Grab Mr. Backup Sledgehammer.

Why wouldn't I carry a spare?

sorry MONG = MONK

>>11562559
Give the monk the sledgehammer; have him destroy the traps while he's out there, to make it safer for the party to pass it by, if it can be destroyed in lieu of bypassing it.

>>11562504
>>11562518

Excellent, you trigger the pressure plate and suddenly the door at the end of the hall opens. You can make out what was behind the door now. Tons of loaded arrow traps! Time for a reflex check! If you fail you take 7d6 damage.

Of course, if you had magnetically launched your sledge hammer, you'd have to deal with less arrow traps. So only 7d6/2 damage. Either way, you're still taking damage

did I miss anything??!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

its a monk doing a reflex check, anyone else see a problem here? no? didn't think so.

My group has a running joke about my adamantine greatsword we called the "skeleton key". I'll leave it to your imagination as to how it got that name.

>>11562608
don't forget that technically the skeletons would provide cover so you have to roll the percentile for each dice.

>>11562642
it was key to killing skeletons? *rim shot and crickets ensue *

>>11562642
It opens skeletons?

>>11562640

I think the problem comes in with the wizard doing the reflex save. Seeing as arrows don't just stop after the monk avoids them and they aren't catching/smacking them all away unless he's an epic level monk.

Can't count the number of times 20 str and a hammer has solved the party's problems.

>11562640

Alright. DC is 19 as this is a level 7 campaign. Still a good shot at dodging though.

The arrows sail past you and continue down the hallway. Who's behind you?

>>11562667
What with the blasting effect of the supersonic sledgehammer, nobody thought to take cover?

TPK as Darwin's law, man. Fuck 'em for being unprepared for an obvious outcome.

>>11562699
We alway keep the druid in back

>>11562608
Didn't arrow traps use a shitty attack roll instead of a reflex save? Not to mention you pulled that 7d6 out of your ass.

>>11562718
>>11562549
yeah this sounds like shades of Jack Chick's "Bitterleaf missed finding the trap, I declare thee dead" grudge trap.

>>11562718
Yeah, it's usually like 1d8 damage with an attack roll. Just send the fucking barbarian in, trap sense exists for a reason, as does d12 HD.

someone archive this thread

>>11562718

It's 7d6 because it's a bunch of arrow traps, did I not mention that? I'm pretty sure I did.

I assumed a level 7 party here. Basic arrows traps are too simple for a level 7 party.

>>11562760
Since you've already pulled an arrow trap out of your ass, can you also get that stick out of there?

>>11562753
>>11562760

Christ, if you really want to argue with the DM, I'd be a dick in this situation. I'm pretty sure it's a 10 attack roll+d6 of damage.

So fine. Level 7 traps have about 18 attacks rolls or so, so there. 18 attack roll+7d6 damage. Still a big old pain in the ass.

Wizard uses barricade bucker, swift action (faster than a free) to create a wall of force to appear blocking all arrows, "bring it on"
4k-gp, insta mage saver.

>>11562804
protip: arguing with a DM is a great tactic to get him to forget mundane or easily overlooked details. Like for instance, this guy is so preoccupied by making this trap do damage that he's probably forgotten all about the poison that was going to be on the arrows. Especially if this is a trap that he pulled out of his ass instead of written down somewhere.

>>11562796

Thats actually pretty reasonable for an arrow trap. Thats 7 arrows from a short bow. If anything it should be 7d8 considering they would be shot from a light crossbow or the equivalent thereof at least as a hand crossbow would be stupid for a trap.

As for calling BS on multiple arrows, have you even seen an arrow trap in a movie that only shoots ONE arrow? Fuck no, you see a fucking WALL of arrows coming at the hero/s

>>11562796

Ah, I get it. So you only play wizards approved adventures right? I'm sure your sledge hammer will do fine in the tomb of horrors.

>>11562831

Alright, you win. But in the end, your sledge hammer was useless.
Now imagine if the trap flooded the room instead of using arrows.

Can we go back to that whole wizard railgun thing?
On to something with that.
Or,alternatively,army of animated 20lb sledgehammers.

this thread... was a good thread.

sledgehammer > thief

take into account that in order to reach maximum distance the arrow must be in a arching position.
unseen servant is still around, you have a chance of hitting the hammer he holds.

you forget. arrows do not seek out 1 target, the ones that missed should have made it over.
unless you want us to make spot checks to see wooden stick on the ground, even though you said there were sticks under the skeletons.dronery xliii

>>11563044

Nah, fuck it. I give up. You stopped them all.

The point was just how ridiculous the premise is. A sledgehammer is equal to a rogue? You might as well say wizards are useless because there's scrolls and wands.

By all this logic, one might as well just play dnd with a party of clerics and have one get use magic device.

railgun,- levitate a mithral hammer of returning+Brilliant energy. cast Launch item. sending it 100+ feet.

make a tube, or glove enchanted with "launch item spell" (note make it a higher lvl spell to increase the weight allowed to be launched. this, inturn, will negate the need for lavitate)
now launch to your hearts content.

>>11563167
hammergun. I love it.

if you make it into a tube, cast "true shot" and launch it into the balls of that lizardfolk shaman.

I have a a few others.
much like bag of boulders, which allows you to produce a rock from a bag, throw it, and then watch as it increases in size to become a massive boulder

I came up with the ballista version.
though to reload it, you need a dispell or have a recharge of 1 day for a new bolt to form.

The rule of law, any edition, only holds up until you realize that government can easily be replaced by a shotgun.

Need to provide clean drinking water? Shoot people and take theirs with a shotgun.
Maintain roadways? Shoot the ground until it's nice and flat with a shotgun.
Maintain public order? Just shoot all the troublemakers, and then shoot anyone who starts something anew with a shotgun.
Need to establish a system of treaties and laws under which you can guarantee that travelers abroad will be safe and well-treated? Shoot it with a shotgun.

Meet your new government, a shotgun.

>>11563267
I'd vote for him! (just so I wont get shot.)

>>11561023
A shotgun breaches a door with greater stealth than a sledgehammer?

WTF are you smoking faggot?

shotgun with a silencer