Also, I'm dumping art I collected from Dragon/Dungeon Magazine. Enjoy.

>So what system is best for my player to make interesting characters that rewards doing so with skills and perks,
What exactly do you mean?

Dresden Files RPG is a great bet, though.

You could also just take Aspects from DFRPG/Spirit of the Century and bolt them onto 4E. It's remarkably easy, and while it adds one thing to track, it essentially rewards players for bringing interesting things about their character into the current situation (and bribes them to act according to those same things).

You can read about Aspects (and the Fate Point economy that comes with them) here: http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/fate3/fate3.html

>>12552425
Few game out there has a structured battle system like 4th edition. Simply because many games maintain the idea that a bullet too the head will kill you.
In terms of structured combat; CoC I would not recommend unless your playing delta green, but even then most of the players will end up dieing which is why games of CoC where everyone only focus's on combat are boring.
If you want a combat version of CoC check out DH. Even if you don't like 40k it has a really good combat system that focus's on taking cover. It also has the investigatory elements of CoC.

>>12552463
On top of that, the DMG 2 has "inherent bonuses" to replace +X items, and Boons to replace, at least partially, magic items. The Dark Sun Campaign Setting expands on Boons a lot (and provides a slightly better version of inherent bonuses).

Forget magic items--or rather, make them rare and remarkable. Instead, just give characters boons organically, based on what they did. Someone saved a psionicist from deadly danger? The psionicst teaches them a psionic secret (resist 5+3/tier psychic?). The party spends a whole month traveling through the Great Forest of Arden? They get +2 to Nature and Perception checks. Etc. Things like favor with an organization, divine blessings, mundane secret techniques, etc also make good boons.

Then, stop using XP. They level up based on story goals. Run a more sandbox-y game; they won't feel the need to fight for XP.

Along similar lines, if you do use XP, take a look at the Quests section in the DMG. Somewhere in there is a line about how players can define their own Minor Quests and then the party gets XP for completing them. Point this out to players. This is easy to tie to Aspects, too.

>>12552539
>The party spends a whole month traveling through the Great Forest of Arden? They get +2 to Nature and Perception checks. Etc. Things like favor with an organization, divine blessings, mundane secret techniques, etc also make good boons.
These things replace the bonuses the party would normally get from magic items, to make things clear. You can also give out extra utility and/or skill powers.

>So what system is best for my player to make interesting characters that rewards doing so with skills and perks, and maybe still has a structured battle system like 4e?
The systems that ACTUALLY DO that tend to be rules-light indie games, i.e. don't have 4E's detailed combat system

>it essentially rewards players for bringing interesting things about their character into the current situation (and bribes them to act according to those same things).

That's EXACTLY what I want. I love having them roleplay, I want something to encourage them to be better at it other then me telling them they SHOULD try to do better.

>>12552539
>>12552539
I had been looking at those too, to at least avoid killing the campaign in 4e immediately.

>>12552572
When you put it like that that sounds pretty dam good. Thanks.

>>12552528
>check out DH
I actually looked a lot of 40k stuff and DH itself at my LGS. Didn't like it, like at all.

>>12552607
Then check that link. You can also download the Dresden Files RPG book (Your Story is the player book you want) off /rs/, although it's a small indie company, so if you wind up using it, buy it.

Aspects are basically short, punchy phrases that describe the character, say something about them, are a signature line, etc--things central to the character, or otherwise important to him. These can be good, bad, or a mix of both; you want some 'good' and some 'bad'. In character creation, you associate one or two with each big event or period.
For example, let's say I'm making a large, jovial runaway farmgirl turned city militiawoman turned mercenary turned adventurer.
I'll start out by giving her the Aspects 'Ox-Big, Ox-Strong' and '"Back on the farm..."'

I'll cover her time in the militia and merc Company with "Discipline of Steel", and decide that she struck out as an adventurer "For Fame and Fortune".

Then, maybe I can flesh out her first adventure, and come up with something relted to it, like "Enemy of the Scarlet Hand", the Scarlet Hand being the cultist-group she helped to stop.

Characters have Fate Points. They start each session with a certain number, and they can spend them to "tag" an Aspect, explaining why it's relevant, and get a bonus. For example, I might spend a fate point and tag "Discipline of Steel" to get a bonus on a saving throw against a Dazed effect, explaining that the soldier's discipline learned as part of an organized mercenary company helps Mara shrug off pain and distraction.

Does any system have something that functions like aspects in that you can use any phrase and use it whenever it applies, but is less weighty than aspects on your character's personality?

>>12552744
Characters can also *get* Fate Points by accepting Compels. This is when the DM offers you a fate point to act according to an Aspect, or give an enemy a bonus, or etc. For example, the DM might compel Enemy of the Scarlet Hand to get her to to put herself and maybe the party in danger to protect some people from the Scarlet Hand's machination. Alternatively, an enemy might tag "Discipline of Steel" because they're used to fighting soldiers, taking advantage of her training to get her to respond a certain way, which would give the enemy a bonus but give her the Fate Point. (For D&D, I'd say the DM could also increase DCs in this way--for example, if Mara is making a Streetwise check in a fancy neighborhood, he might compel "Back on the Farm..." to raise the DC if he thinks it'll make the scene more interesting.
When the DM Compels an Aspect, the player can accept the Compel, or pay a fate point to ignore it.

Mixed Aspects are good because they're both sources of Fate Points and a way to spend them. For example, "Lucky" is a mediocre Aspect. A Tiefling taking "Devil's Luck", however, is a strong Aspect--it's more flavorful, and it can be both good and bad.

The result of all this is that important things about the characters are constantly being brought into play.

A big part of getting this to work for everyone is group character creation, with ideas tossed out freely. A specific campaign concept can also help--for example, "Sailors on the Silver Sea", a game about exploring the deep Astral and the strange and numinous things on its dead-god-body isles and empty dominions.

>>12552744
Interesting stuff. I've finished downloading the books, I'll probably spend the morning reading them before the game starts.

I honestly can't wait to implement something like this. Most of the stuff I've written for the campaign involves roleplaying and making decisions that fights actually make an impact.

>>12552463

>take Aspects from DFRPG/Spirit of the Century and bolt them onto 4E.

This is what my group has been trying to do for our 4th Edition Eberron campaign. (I am ashamed to have "Quori Captor Satori" as one.) So far, they have been used only as general hints for roleplaying and sources of compels; we cannot determine a comfortable method of integrating the fate points that aspects would normally reap. Action points are a dubious substitute, since the party can achieve tremendous effects with them (my Bravura Leader and Resourceful Leader multiclass feats alone grant the other characters a +11 bonus to damage rolls with extra attacks from an action point throughout the paragon tier).

We are not too keen on having fate points modify dice rolls, so what we are considering is that a fate point can be spent to either:

1.) Exercise narrative control over a scene, just as they can in FATE.

2.) Apply greater force with our special abilities. The campaign is highly psionic-themed, and our characters have abilities reminiscent of the undefined powers of Touhou characters, such as "manipulation of the subconscious." Usually, these are simply taken into account as things we can just "do" without rules for them, just as any character can twiddle their thumbs, and integrated into skill checks and whatnot. We restrain ourselves with these abilities but can ask the Dungeon Master if we can do X with them every so often. If he vetoes the usage, it is vetoed ("No, you cannot manipulate his subconscious urges to flip his sexual orientation for twelve hours."), else, the application of the ability goes through. A fate point can be spent to allow the Dungeon Master to reconsider and possibly compromise ("Well, perhaps six hours would be reasonable."), although the Dungeon Master can veto nonetheless. In the latter case, the fate point is left unspent.

Might you have any suggestions?

>>12552777
What do you mean? Aspects don't have to be personality-related. They can be training-related ("Trained by Montcharles"), ability-related ("Gift of Elemental Fire"), equipment-related ("Anduril, the Sword That Was Broken"), etc.

Scenes can also have Aspects. For example, a dark warehouse might have Deep Shadows, which anyone can tag for a bonus to sneaking around. You can also create Aspects for quests (Toppling the Iron Duke, or A Traitor in King Admar's Court), or even the whole campaign or game world. A Dark Sun campaign might have permanent Aspects like The World is Barren, Kindness Rare as Water, Rare and Precious Steel, Magic's Touch Defiles, and The Rule of the Sorcerer-Kings.

>>12552812
It's a really, really great mechanic, and how portable it is is the best part.

It's not originally designed for 4E, however, so you'll want to hash out how many Aspects a character should have (start with five and add one per tier, related to the story arc of the previous tier or other important adventures/events?), how many Fate Points you start each session with, and what exactly you can do and how big the bonus is (I'd go with +1 on an At-Will, +2 on an Encounter power, +4 or a reroll on a skill check or Daily, and I'd make it a Power bonus so it doesn't stack with utilities like Beguiling Tongue--"Beguiling Tongue" as a utility power works a lot like an Aspect already!)

You generally want characters to be able to tag them after they've rolled, like in SotC.

>>12552827
I'm (pleasantly) surprised!

Modifying dice rolls is what generally rewards players for using Aspects, i.e. important things about the characters, such as that they are Ox-Big, Ox-Strong, or that they're Trained by Montcharles, or have A Devil's Luck, or whatever, influencing how things happen.

>Apply greater force with our special abilities.
This seems fine, and is really just an. Try to integrate this with combat stunting--a Fate Point-powered Stunt should have effects on par with a strong encounter power, I'd say. The examples and touhou stuff makes me grit my teeth, but you guys are all into it, so whatever.

>>12552838
Oh, I know. I've been using FATE for quite some time (I should've said).

I was wondering if there's something aspect-like out there that can be used to handle little unimportant things, like what the FATE games use skill rolls for.

(Which would then naturally be combined with full-sized aspects)

If you have a question as to how to run a better game, the answer is always going to be 'be a better GM'.

That's it. Nothing else will do as much to improve a game as you simply running it better. Everything else in the game beyond GM and player interaction is completely extraneous, and is at best going to make your job of good GMing slightly easier or slightly harder. Better players can make it easier, but that is not something you as GM have control over.

The game system is only a tool. YOU are the artist.

The situations where your choice in game systems actually comes into play are only in enabling play and aiding the feel. A system has to be possessed of a minimum level fo functionality before it can be of any use to you. A system so dysfunctional that it poses an obstacle to your GMing just has to go. Fortunately, there are so many systems that don't that you have real choice in the matter. Then, you just want to choose whichever system it is that will help generate the tone and feel you like in a game. DH has good mechanics for grim heroes, with blood and dying everywhere but the scope for great feats, and is one of the rare modern/future books that isn't bad. 4th is good for the more heroic fantasy feel. CoC's mechanics work best only in places where mechanics aren't actually that necessary, but are very helpful to an inexperienced GM trying to run low-grade horror. I've not used WoD that much, and everything else is beyond my purview.

The setting of the system is utterly irrelevant and should at no point figure in to your decision.

>>12552890
>I was wondering if there's something aspect-like out there that can be used to handle little unimportant things, like what the FATE games use skill rolls for.
Uh, well, various games use Aspect-like traits *instead of* skills. For example, Dogs in the Vineyard--your skills, possessions, etc are listed that way in the character sheet. A Dogs character I ran had, for example, "My Brother's Gun 2d6", "Spectacles 1d4", "Cool Under Fire 1d6", stuff like that.

Wushu also does things this way--you don't have skills, you have traits. For example, Batman might have "The World's Greatest Detective 5", "Stealthy as a Bat 4", etc, and "Emotional Issues 1"

>>12552898
>The game system is only a tool. YOU are the artist.
Yeah, but some games leave you fingerpainting while others give you a variety of brushes and paints, or, hell, Photoshop.

I used to be all "system, whatever" and even ran a fairly successful "freeform", i.e. "DM fiat", game. By now, I've played enough games to realize that system can matter a lot.

>>12552887
Why less for at-wills? I'm genuinely curious.

Oh, and for the reference of anyone who tries to use aspects in a d20 system: a +2 bonus on four fudge dice translates to a +8 on a d20 (both are equivalent to something that has a 20% chance of happening on its own). It's a really huge insane bonus, and I wouldn't actually make it a +8 in a translation, but it's good to know.

>>12552890
I think Cliches from Risus might be what you're looking for. You get four things that, like aspects, can be any damn thing, and you can apply them whenever they're appropriate. Something like "swashbuckler" is good for fighting, swinging from ropes, that sort of thing. Unlike aspects they have numbers associated with them, and can be used without spending any sort of resource.

Fate + Risus is a little crazy (understatement) but a lot of fun.

basic roleplaying

>>12552887
That's honestly great.

I remember at the beginning of the game one of my players, the monk of all people, decided to try water boarding a nameless thug for info when in from the beginning of the game I told them I didn't want any evil characters.

I nearly threw him out in the first hour.

It'll be great to see them stop and think, "Oh yeah my fighter had fought in a globin war." Ok +4 to Nature check to see what these three globins work for.

>>12552927
>Why less for at-wills? I'm genuinely curious.
At-wills aren't as dramatic or important! They're the basics of your fighting style, your simplest magics, etc.

>>12552925

I know that much. That is, in fact, half of the point. A bad game system can make a game worse, but a good game system will not actually make a game better, save for the subtle advantages it can give you in determining tone.

Choosing the right system is helpful, but far too many GMs place all the blame for their failures or praise for their successes at the feet of the system. Unless it is actively impeding your GMing, it just isn't that significant.

>>12552914
>Dogs in the Vineyard
That's not free, is it? I can't find it in /rs/ or anywhere else, and I'd prefer to take a look before buying since reviews are pretty mixed.

>>12552960
>A bad game system can make a game worse, but a good game system will not actually make a game better, save for the subtle advantages it can give you in determining tone.
My friend ran an Eberron Sky Pirates! game in D&D 3.5.

Later, he ran a prequel to it in slightly-modified Spirit of the Century.

The difference it made wasn't subtle, it was *enormous*, and far-reaching, affecting what the players went about doing and how they went about doing it.

>>12552936
Yeah, it works really well. You want to limit Aspects to somewhere between 5 and 10. 10, as in Spirit of the Century, is already a couple too many.

You also want to do the group chargen thing. Check out how SotC and DFRPG do it. Aspects have to be things that resonate.

>>12552914
>>12552927
Thanks! I'll look into the systems you guys mentioned.

Did I download the right thing for Risus? It's only 70 pages.

>>12552986
Risus is only 6 pages long. You got the extended version with the companion full of alternate rules.

I don't have Wushu on hand but I'm pretty sure it's tiny too.

>>12552986
Risus is a really rules-light game; I don't think most of the 70 pages are crunch.

>>12552972
It's not. Let me check /rs/; I'll upload if it's not there. It's pretty cheap, though.
It's actually there: http://www.mediafire.com/?o4ygtdgygrt
You'll want to look at other games by Vincent Baker, as well. Dude makes good indie games.

Bumping a good thread.

>>12552898
>>12552898
I dismiss your judgment of my DMing because you don't know what happened among the group.

For a long time I've encouraged them to roleplay and be creative as character by handing out exp. giving them bonuses to checks when the do something original, but without much success.

They generally end up going back to a video game like mentality that roleplaying is only necessary to find out who or what needs to die, just like when in a vidya you talk to and NPC to get a new mission.

I don't want to PUNISH them for this, as half it's their first game, the other half is their 2nd. I'd rather find a REWARD them for their stories and character. Adding new rules/mechanics will REINFORCE better roleplaying.

Know basic psychology? It's better to give them more reasons to do something rather than punishing for not not doing it.

Anyway I still got mad at you . So fuck you.

>>12553004
Christ, I couldn't find it because I kept spelling "Vineyard" as "Vinyard". Thanks.

And yeah, I read "kill puppies for satan" and laughed my ass off. I'm surprised it's not more popular, despite being a joke.

>>12553013
>They generally end up going back to a video game like mentality that roleplaying is only necessary to find out who or what needs to die, just like when in a vidya you talk to and NPC to get a new mission.

Frankly, that's the way some players like it. It might just be a matter of your fun and their fun being different. If they don't enjoy the whole roleplaying thing that much, they'll never be that gung-ho for it, although reward mechanics can help. You can't make people have fun your way.

>>12552887

The issue we foresee with aspects modifying dice rolls are threefold:

1.) Encouraging roleplaying in a certain way for all the wrong reasons. "If I accept this compel, I may be able to receive a substantial bonus on the attack roll of my vital daily attack power later on," is not a nice thought to have in the metaphorical back of one's head, in my opinion.

2.) Allowing players to improve the dice rolls of their characters raises the party's overall power level, especially in combat, when a fate point means a reroll of a daily attack power or the dazing of an enemy at a clutch moment, and the Dungeon Master is not too experienced at balancing out such mechanics on-the-fly.

3.) That sinking feeling one receives when having spent a resource only for it to have meant nothing, when it could have been guaranteed to produce something in another situation. In this case, fate points, improving dice rolls, and wielding narrative control.

>touhou stuff
To each her own.

>The examples
"Can you use your ability to switch someone's sexual orientation?" was a question that was jokingly put forth in IRC during downtime the other day. It merited some thought, and it turns out that it could have tangible uses in social situations. For example, in a scenario wherein a grand party is to be held, one of the attendants is known as a lecherous womanizer, and the party would like to minorly tarnish his reputation and spite him while they head off to accomplish other goals, psionically converting the man's sexual orientation would be an amusing method of facilitating that.

>>12553015
Heh. Yeah, when you get no results for something that should be there, check your spelling.

I want to try his Poison'd, or In A Wicked Age. The latter has stats like For Myself, For Others, By Love, and By Violence.

>>12553021
If you're doing it SotC-style, you could add the bonus after knowing the result, so you wouldn't waste them very often.

Benefits for accepting Compels is part of the whole point behind the fate point engine. You accept the compel to act according to Aspect, which can get you into trouble, which the Fate Point can then help you get out of. As the DM, I'd give each Elite or Solo monster a fate point, and when a PC spends one, a monster gets it, too; that's part of the mechanic. (The DM can also just raise encounter difficulty a bit.)
They're supposed to flow pretty freely. This may work better in something like Dresden Files than in D&D, though.

I feel like this should be archived so we don't lose the advice, bronanas.

The way fate points can be freely gained is at odds with D&D's (near-vestigial) attrition system. In D&D you're supposed to get weaker if you do several combats in a row before you can have a proper rest.

You can solve this two ways:
A: Unlimited healing surges, but you can only spend a certain number each short rest. Now your health will recover eventually and you can go on forever. This does require your players to understand that they can't just short rest twice in a row, though.

B: Fate point cap equal to your current number of healing surges. Now your fate points attrition too.

>>12553076
Fate Points as per SotC aren't an attrition system--they're not supposed to get more rare as the game continues They enhance play in constant ways. Like encounter powers.

In Dresden Files RPG they are somewhat limited, but DFRPG has a system for it in which some characters get powers and others (i.e. mortals) get more fate points.

Just adding Fate Points won't affect D&D attrition one way or the other.

>>12553016
It's that's the case I'll be one step closer to not DMing anymore.

I just feel like I'm delaying the inevitable.

>>12553099
*Or* you could try and find a group that enjoys the same kind of play you do.

>>12553099
>tiefling
"OH SHIT OH SHIT BEING DRIZZT IS HARD FUCK"

>>12553073
>>12553073
You've never saved threads?

ctrl+s

Save any webpage easily. If i remember correctly it'll only save the thumbnails in thread and not the full file, so save them separately .

>>12553099
This: >>12553106
Gotta get a group with the same priorities.

>>12553120
If I just save it on my computer I can't link others on /tg/ to it later, cockfalcon.

Archived it on sup/tg/. And easymodo will do it automatically (although finding it might be hard).

>>12553132
>cockfalcon

Really now?

I thought you just wanted to save the info for yourself, and saving in all in thread format would be easier then copy pasting, hence the advice.

>>12553164
>Really now?
Yes, really. WHAT NOW, COCKFALCON?

>>12553172
You seek mental help?

>mention something where SotC is relevant
>LogicNinja immediately posts
It's like a fucking batsignal.

>>12553132
>cockfalcon
Not many people know that was the original name of Han Solo's ship. It was apparently changed for marketing reasons.

>>12553099
If it turns out that your players only want combat heavy hack and slashes after all, don't give up. You can still run a very entertaining, roleplay-heavy dungeon crawl, using a lot of the material that was presented in this thread.

One of the ways you can tag an aspect is by telling a very brief story from your past. Add a houserule that extends that: so long as your story has other characters in it, it can be a bit longer. The first person to talk after a new character is introduced gets to be that guy. Whoever roleplays well and helps the story get to its conclusion (ie: how the experience helped with the roll you were modifying) gets a reward. That could be fractional fate points, experience points, or serious for-scoring-only. Reward the guy who started it too (or require that all spending of fate points results in a story).

With that addition even a bog standard dungeon crawl becomes an epic frame tale.

(Warning: This has not been tested.)

LN, do you frequent any IRC servers?

>>12553226
No. The only time I'm on IRC is for GN's game.

>>12553196
I'm Batman.

LN, thanks for making the thread successful.

>>12553253

>>12553253
You'd probably get more responses at a different time. It's late.

...most of them would be HURR 40K/DARK HURRESY!!! and edition war shit, but still.

ITT: "Slurp! Gobble! Delicious tripfag cock!"

>>12553263
I'm content with the response I got. Better one person with good advice then 20 just spewing different shit out and never getting a straight answer.

That's why I post in the after hours.

Normally, I'd give LN shit for plugging this system wherever he can, but I gotta say, he's basically carried this thread. With any luck his suggestion will lead to a happier game for our fellow anon.

>>12553274
I hope it works out for you, Brodysseus.

I'd also suggest the "inherent bonuses + Boons aplenty" thing. It's more organic, it makes magic items more magical, and with that and a shift of XP-award focus from combat onto Quests, you elminate a good chunk of "hack and slash" motivators (XP and loot), replacing them with a more character-motivation and/or plot-thread-driven game. Ideally, at least; it does require strong character motivations.

>>12553280
It's good at what it does. What it does is what the OP wants.

4th ED is about as structured as you get it, but to get more perks and skills and shite you'll have to loosen up on the structured bit. Unfortunately.

Warhammer Fantasy RP is quite good, but very different. Conversion will be a bitch.

i would just tweak (rape) 4th until it fits what you want. But talk to your players about the changes, so that you can agree on them.

>>12553270
ITT: BAWWWWWWWW WHY AM CONTRIBUTING TRIPFAG GET ATTENTION?

>>12553321
>ACTUALLY RESPONDING to a troll THAT shitty and blatant
Holy shit, were you dropped on your head as a child, you fucking imbecile?

>>12553327
>responding to the samefag troll
You lose.

Late in the thread, I know, but I might have a suggestion for you.

I did an introduction to rp-game for a club at my uni, and knew that most of my players had only heard about role playing games.
I wanted them to like their characters, so here's what I did;
I forced them to create a small story about their characters. This could range from a few lines summing up his life or a diary entry, to full length novella's.
I gave bonus legend points (Earth Dawn experience) for length, detail and story hooks. It worked like a charm.

All the characters were fleshed out, and they all did a god job of acting out the characters rather than just go "HULK SMASH" on every foe.

Just be warned that RP'ing takes more time than not RP'ing, s that what you thought would be a short session can be dragged out to four or five all-nighters as the characters explore eachothers wants and wishes, and tries to figure out the real reason for the evil sorcerer's actions.

Keep playing 4E.

>>12553444
slowpoke.tiff

>>12553491
Mmm. I could go for a Kaylee. I mean strawberry.

(I mean Kaylee.)

>>12553552
>>12553491
I think that's our Mark cap'n
Kaylee, that's the buffet table
And it needs interrogatin'!

>>12553614
I'd interrogate Kaylee, if you know what I mean.

bumping a high quality thread.

>>12553491

i love lucid dreaming. it allows me to experience this pairing.

but i like Kaylee better. the original Tali.

>>12553629

I wanna interrogate Kaylee and Saffron at the same time.

>>12554126
... I'm just mad about Saffron
a-Saffron's mad about me
I'm-a just mad about Saffron
She's just mad about me

They call me Malcolm Reynolds
(quite rightly)

>>12554152

>>12554199

Bump for early morning /tg/. Adding Aspects to 4E is awesome.

fuck yes.

ok have a nathan fillion bump

>>12554774
>>12556956
Sorry bros, /tg/ is too busy posting sexy elf threads to pay attention to quality threads such as this one.

>>12557718
/tg/ isn't about quality, it's about common-nerd-denominator shit like sexy elves.

>>12557870
Sexy elves are way more interesting than traditional games...