>>15007189
>The skills
Here's what we have for skills so far. As you can see, most are related to item use, in keeping with the theme of the video games. The list is currently open to expansion as needed.

|Blade| - Sword, Knife, Axe, etc.
|Armor| - Magic Armor, Zora Armor, Darknut Armor, etc.
|Rod| - Cane of Somaria, Fire Rod, Cane of Byrna, etc.
|Instrument| - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums, etc.
|Tool| - Hookshot, Boomerang, Grappeling Hook, etc.
|Bomb| - Waterbomb, Powder Keg, Bombchu, etc.
|Heavy| - Ball and Chain, Greatsword, Hammer, etc.
|Bow| - Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, etc.
|Shield| - Mirror Shield, Hylian Shield, Kokiri Shield, etc.
|Magic| - The spells from Ocarina of Time, the medallions from A Link to the Past, etc.
|Stealth| - One of the few skills not specifically related to item use.

Skills for social interaction and most physical feats such as climbing, jumping, riding, and so forth probably will not be necessary, since they can probably be resolved simply through the Attributes and Virtues alone (as explained in the next post).

>>15007189
Holy balls that is a nice picture.

Right, My questions from the end of the last thread stand.
>If we keep hearts as 3 + Courage + Physical, what do we do for the magic meter? Mental + Wisdom? or Mental + Wisdom + Magic? maybe even just Mental + Magic.

>Do we have a full list of Skills yet? I remember Stealth was added... would we have some way of giving characters resistance towards flinching? Link himself is pretty easy to knock back, but bigger enemies don't even flinch when you drop bombs on them.

Not getting knocked back would fall under Power's purview.

On some things not needing skills: They have a much smaller rolled pool, producing lower results than things that do have skills. Keep that in mind.

To me, it feels like Stealth, Flinch and the like should be separate of the item skills. Otherwise it feels kind of out of place. Maybe have those sort of intrinsic to all characters, roll using straight virtue/attribute combinations.

>>15007313
Excuse me while I derp.

>>15007245
Please continue.

>>15007245
>Virtues & Attributes
While certain Virtue/Attribute combinations go better together than others, there's at least some application for each Virtue in the Physical, Mental, and Social arenas.

>Power/Physical
Quite straightforward; Power governs the use of |heavy| weapons and general feats of strength. Power also contributes to damage dealt in general, even for weapons not specifically governed by it.
>Power/Mental
Power governs the use of offensive magic, both of the damaging and debilitating varieties.
>Power/Social
Power governs the more forceful types of social interaction, such as intimidation and browbeating.

>Wisdom/Physical
One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.
>Wisdom/Mental
A match made in heaven. Of course, Wisdom governs knowledge of lore and useful information. It also governs defensive and healing magic, and increases your overall magical capacity.
>Wisdom/Social
Wisdom governs social graces and logical rhetoric. Diplomacy and civil discussion goes here.

>Courage/Physical
Courage governs the use of |blades| and |tools|, as well as riding, climbing, swimming, and other feats of adventurous derring-do. It also increases your total number of hearts.
>Courage/Mental
Naturally, Courage governs tenacity, resolve, and...well, courage. It also governs the use of magic for travel and utility (think Farore's Wind).
>Courage/Social
Courage governs your ability to inspire people -- either to perform heroic deeds, or simply to trust and like you. Courage has a big impact on first impressions.

>>15007333
But you should be able to focus on them.

Cool zelda art? Cool zelda art

>>15007372
What is Courage/Mental governed mental/magical resistance?

>>15007398
>if

>>15007378
Point. Having to increase them indirectly through raising virtues/attributes would have kind of bizarre side-effects under the current system.
I would suggest separating item and physical skills, but I don't know if that would make the system too convoluted for what we're looking for.

Do we have an IRC up?

We probably should.

What's the point of having social attributes in a Zelda RPG? Wouldn't it all be about adventuring?

>>15007437
>>15007427
>>15007419
>>15007414
Don't turn this into an image dump. It will just kill the thread faster.

However, those are awesome pictures. Keep posting them, just contribute a little while you do.

:<

>>15007313
>On some things not needing skills: They have a much smaller rolled pool, producing lower results than things that do have skills. Keep that in mind.

True. My thoughts originally were that, since most of these are unopposed rolls, you can just set the bar low enough to where it's appropriate for the smaller pools. I figure it's best to keep the skill list as small as possible to keep things streamlined.

>>15007333
>To me, it feels like Stealth, Flinch and the like should be separate of the item skills. Otherwise it feels kind of out of place. Maybe have those sort of intrinsic to all characters, roll using straight virtue/attribute combinations.
Flinching can probably be done without skills, but I figured stealth is best to have as a skill because it's more of a specialized thing. A daring adventurer can reasonably be expected to climb and jump and whatnot, so doing that sort of thing under Courage/Physical makes sense; however, you can't really make such an argument for the ability to sneak around undetected.

>>15007454
Not really. Wind Waker and its spin-offs seems a lot more social then the other titles.

>>15007454
Not necessarily. There was always a good part of the game spent dealing with royalty, doing favors and the like. It could be even more central with non-silent heroes.

>>15007372
>Wisdom/Physical
>One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.

I think that's good. Stealth and ranged combat would rely much upon intellect and cunning.

>>15007454
There should be some concrete way of handling social interaction, but you're right, social stuff should take a backseat to the adventuring. Hence why there are no social skills, just the Social attribute. The attribute alone doesn't add much at all to the complexity, but it gives the ability to handle social scenarios if/when they come up.

>>15007454
Well, what you have to remember is that you're playing in the Zelda WORLD, yes, but you're not Link himself.

A RPG in this setting, as opposed to a video game, has WAY more opportunity for social interaction, considering the amount on NPC's and settlements there are.

>>15007421
what was suggested was that skills arent just "you can use this item", it's what you can do with it, with more levels in a skill opening up more possibilities. Enough points in |blade| and you can start doing some of the crazier sword techniques from the game, enough in |Instruments| and you learn more songs, and so on. points in |Stealth| would be just how sneaky you are, and what you can do while sneaking.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but a characters Heart meter is determined by 3 + Courage + Physical, and each weapon has it's own damage increment. for example, an iron sword dealing half-heart increments, while an Iron Knuckle's Axe deals 2 hearts per increment. How many increments of damage you do with an attack depends on how many successes you get with an attack roll.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/da.vane/Zelda%20RPG%20Sourcebook%20FAQ.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/da.vane/ZeldaRPG.htm

Or you can all stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

So... what will this be?
d20?
d6?
d100?

My vote is on d100. Most flexible. d6 would be good if you want to target new people, who have never roleplayed before.

>>15007520
Screw the d20 system. We're making a better ZRPG.

>>15007536
Real GMs run d12 systems and force their players to have a handful of them for no better reason than because they were told to.

>>15007520
I'm completely new to this thread/project, but in all honesty I think I'd prefer it to a d20 system game.

>>15007536
With the Roll+Keep system, it's pretty much been decided that it's d6 based.

What would make the d100 more flexible?

>>15007520
Yeah, I checked out the d20 system Zelda. Seemed kinda suck and didn't really have the Zelda-feel to it.

If somebody wants to add more social skills and other such things, that would be easy enough to do. It's literally just adding it, and if you want to you write up a few abilities/techniques for them. We could even toss in a bunch in a sort of add-on way to the basic system when that's done. Y'know, "the basic system doesn't use these, but if they fit what you're after they're nice."

>>15007520
The thing is that Zelda d20 just doesn't feel like Zelda, thematically. This system, or what we have so far, hews a lot closer to the spirit of the games.

d20 is awesome.

...

for DnD. Stop trying to force other systems into it. It doesn't work. It never did. That was the problem with d20 modern. It works because it was MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT GAME. It does not carry over well to doing something else.

>>15007421
I would be ok with separating item and non-item skills, but only if (1) we can come up with enough non-item skills, and (2) if we can come up with enough to do with those skills to justify actually having them have ranks.

Alternatively, rather than having separate skills, perhaps it would work to have a standard bonus based on experience? Even if we go with a level-less system, you can still say "for every X experience points you've earned, add one die to the pool for any check not governed by a skill". That way you can keep getting better at things without having a whole section for the skill and without needing to boost your attributes.

>>15007569
d100 is just d20 with uselessly many possible results.

>>15007574
That would be good. Include an appendix of optional rules for people who want a little more crunch in certain areas, but keep them out of the core system to keep things streamlined.

>>15007585
Sounds good to me.

exactly how many points should we allow for each pool? I'm thinking maybe 9 points for virtues, 12 points for attributes, and... I don't know, 5 for skills?

(and was my question on the magic meter's length ever addressed? I wanted some opinions on that one.)

>>15007607
Sounds too high to me. Far too many dice. Really, I think everything should be capping out around like 5.

>>15007607
5 for virtues
10 for attributes
5 for skills

>>15007607
That really depends on how much power you want one spell to take.
If we did 2 or 3 mana per use of a magical item, maybe 1 or 2 a round for things like the Cane of Byrna, then 3 + Wisdom + Mental seems like it would fit pretty well.

>>15007536
I'd say use a d10, it has enough granularity and you can easily use it to pull a d100 when you need it to

>>15007503
I'd suggest you read Danse Macabre of Vampire the Requiem. It has social mechanics that are both simple and easily adaptable.


All together this is looking more similar to a WoD or Shadowrun style system (although with simple adding instead of a bellcurve of successes), so you might want to consider a 3rd over-category of things like merits or perks or such to handle things outside skills and the virtue/Attribute scheme

>>15007607
>(and was my question on the magic meter's length ever addressed? I wanted some opinions on that one.)

I don't think it was. Personally, I think you should get magic points proportional to Mental + Wisdom. Should have some kind of multiplier on it, so you actually have a decent amount of points to magic power to work with, but the exact size of the multiplier depends on the size of the costs we decide on for the various spells. I don't think the |magic| skill should contribute to your magic meter, since expanding the magic meter in the games was always something separate from getting new ways to use the magic meter, and was something that only happened rarely.

>exactly how many points should we allow for each pool? I'm thinking maybe 9 points for virtues, 12 points for attributes, and... I don't know, 5 for skills?
That kind of depends on what kind of scaling we use for the point buy on the virtues and attributes. As for skills, I think it'd be better to have more like 8 or 10 points available at character creation, but put a cap on how many ranks you can have at any given skill to start out.

you should expand the skills a little more to include things a little beyond what you just see in the games

For example, unarmed combat/grappling

the skills remind me for World of Darkness fighting style merits than say D&D skills since they open up more options

>>15007659
>All together this is looking more similar to a WoD or Shadowrun style system (although with simple adding instead of a bellcurve of successes)

That's really pretty far off. Roll&Keep + Linear Comparison isn't much like Storyteller.
This post is what I based the suggestions we've ended up running with on, should explain the idea:
http://samhaine.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/dice-system-roll-and-keep-linear-comparison/

Not sure if we're settled on successes or totaling up values for non-opposed checks, though.

Someone mentioned in the last thread that having the virtues be the sole determiner of the number of dice kept gives the virtues a bit too much sway, and that got me thinking, maybe we could make it so you can also use attributes toward keeping as well? Perhaps something like you could forgo adding dice from attributes in order to increase your number of dice kept, at a rate of one die kept for every two dice removed from the pool?

That would make the attributes a bit more important, rather than just being essentially meta-skills.

>>15007731
That could work. Seems like it would open up more options for what you can do with an action, as well.

>>15007727
For unopposed checks, like hitting a switch with an arrow, or a non-skill check like pushing a block, I imagine we could do something like "You need X number of roll greater than Y to succeed". for example, at least 2 rolls of >4 to push a heavy block. Say a character has 4 Power, 5 Physical, that shouldnt be too hard. The 1 Power, 1 Physical musician, on the other hand...

>>15007731
What we could do is have different weapons hit with different virtue/attribute combinations. Though having a Social-based weapon would be kind of bizarre.

>>15007764
This makes sense, basically just having a concrete set of rolls to oppose.

>>15007771
>Social-based weapon
and now I'm picturing Link beating someone to death with his ocarina.

I don't know about you guys, but I understand a system well when I see it in action. Someone want to throw up a mock character sheet to see how this works?

>>15007771
I wouldn't limit it to always being a certain roll

depending on the style in which you fight you could very well use any of the three virtues. A wisdom/physical would lead to a defensive style, courage/physical would be a well balanced mix of offense and defense, and power/physical would be overpowering the enemy and such

>>15007731
What about adding them to determine both?

IE: Lets say they add up to a total pool of, lets say, 10 dice.

You then choose to not roll as many of those as you want (up to half, rounded down), and instead, thats how many dice you keep.

So the person in that pool could choose to roll 5 dice, and keep all of them. Or roll 8 dice, but only keep 2.

>>15007771
>What we could do is have different weapons hit with different virtue/attribute combinations.

We already have that, as noted in >>15007372. For instance, heavy weapons like the Megaton Hammer are Power-based, while bows are Wisdom-based, and lighter blades (like the Master Sword) are Courage-based.

All weapons should probably be physical, though. The only one off the top of my head that I can see being under mental would be Bombchus. Magic is all mental, though.

Social weapons, though...lolno.

>>15007839
In that case, there's not much point in having distinct Virtues, Attributes, and Skills, apart from thematics.

By having the different stats govern different aspects of the roll, you show their relative importance. With the virtues governing the kept dice count, they show themselves to be the most fundamental feature of the character. The attributes apply to a wide range of tasks, and if you let them also contribute to the kept dice count, but in a more limited fashion, you mark them as important, but not as important as the virtues. By limiting skills to only influencing the size of the pool, never the number kept, this shows them to be the most superficial aspect of the character.

>>15007839
Far too easily abused. We don't want people optimizing their dice distribution like that.

>>15007839
What the fuck am I reading?

That is a horrible system. Why would ANYONE do that? You DO NOT put players in control of the bellcurve. That is extremely stupid. You can let them tweak it through stats, but actually giving them complete control over it? Not a good idea.

why not just have another stat which governs the number of dice you can keep that's seperate? Or just do away with the keeping dice thing all together.

>>15007962
or better yet, use skills to govern the number of dice you get to keep

So... what are the 'default'/generic assumed roles of the player?

Is it like 4 swords, with each player being a split between the 'real' hero?
Wind Waker, where there are a couple of people descended from sages, who all have a role to play?
Or are they just random people trying to save the day?

>>15007979
If it were my call? PC's have the blood of heroes, whether it's a sage or some ancient knight (Which was apparently Link's heritage?).

hm... Lots of disagreement on the Roll/Keep count...

Personally, I thought the Roll Attribute + Skill, keep Virtue was fine. That basically boils down to your Attribute and Skill both determining your odds of success, and your Virtue determining the magnitude of your success.

You can have tons of Physical and |Heavy|, but it comes right down to Power for how much beating you can dispense with that hammer.

>>15008018
and at that point everyone dumps their points into power and courage and wisdom get thrown to side

>>15007962
>why not just have another stat which governs the number of dice you can keep that's seperate?
That would be the virtues. That's pretty much their primary role; the bonuses to damage/magic/health are just add-ons.

>Or just do away with the keeping dice thing all together.
That would slow down gameplay tremendously. Seriously, why would you want to deal with a pile of fifteen dice every turn rather than just picking the four or five highest and using those?

>>15008043
You seem to be overlooking that it's rather unlikely every single party member is going to play a |Heavy| based character. I can't see the party of 5 Iron Knuckles getting very far in their epic quest.

>>15008043
Unless you want to play a mage, or an archer, or a sneak, in which case you will put points in Wisdom.

Every virtue has a role. Not every character will care about every virtue. That is completely okay.

>>15008056
then move to success based dice rolls, its quicker anyway and produces a good bellcurve

>>15008066
except like >>15007838 said, saying that a sword is ALWAYS courage is a painfuly artificial distintion.

Yes someone weapons will almost always fall into a single group but most of them will be free to fit into any area depending on how they are used

>>15007979
I kinda pictured it as Majora's Mask, but instead of a single player switching masks, its just separate players all at once. Each has multiple roles, and would be useful for different things.

>>15008082
By success-based dice rolls, do you mean a roll-to-beat-target-number like what's used in d20 systems?

That's a lot harder to make work with the Power/Wisdom/Courage paradigm, which is pretty much the defining feature of what we're trying to accomplish.

At any rate, can we please stop trying to tear down what progress has been made so far and actually try to move forward?

>>15008107
I was making an analogy to address a different problem, I am aware not all physical weapons will use power. The |Heavy| group of weapons, however, it has pretty much been decided will be Power-exclusive. Pic related.

>>15008124
no, success based means like Storyteller or Shadowrun, where any die that comes as above X counts as a success. So lets say you are using a d6 then you any roll that comes up with a 5 or 6 is a success and then you just count the number of successes scored.

>>15008144
what I am saying is that only a very few weapons will only lead to a single virture being used

>>15008107
I'd be open to allowing different fighting styles for different virtues as >>15007838 suggested, but it would be a bit more difficult to flesh out. For one thing, we still need to determine how the turn structure works...

Should both combatants roll simultaneously, or should it be more turn based with distinct attackers and defenders for each roll? How virtue-based fighting styles work will depend on how we decide to do this.

>>15008146
the default target number on d6's would be 4. so 4, 5, and 6 would all be successes

>>15008173
no it wouldn't just drop the stupid dice keeping crap. It works when you want to pidgeon hole things but when you have characters like Link who are the epitome of flexibility you want to use a system that can handle it.

And here's something I do myself in storyteller regarding turns. The init order only says who goes first, you don't HAVE to go. If you choose to wait you can roll to interupt someone else's action so you can do the whole wait-and-see thing without getting gimped for it.

>>15007259
>If we keep hearts as 3 + Courage + Physical
x4
You have to remember that Link starts the game with 12 HP. Its just shown as 3 hearts, each divided into 4 sections.

>>15008196
really? I thought it was 5 and 6 were succeses.

oh well using a fluid target number is dumb anyway, locking it and then just adjusting the number of dice in the pool works achieves the same effect much quicker.

>>15008173
>There will be a number of special abilities available to choose from, available in a tree setup under the relevant skill. More ranks in the skill gives access to more advanced abilities related to that skill.
the different abilities can each be tied to one of the three virtues

>>15008146
That still slows down play more than a roll & keep, and I fail to see what sort of benefit it would offer over roll & keep.

If you can give a solid argument that something's wrong with the roll & keep system, we can consider changing it. Otherwise, just drop it. So far all that's been said is "hey, why not change it?", with no reasons given as to why it should change. And when changing the dice system means overhauling everything else we've accomplished, we're going to need something better than just "why not".

>>15008173
What about a Mouse Guard/Burning Wheel style combat system, where you choose to attack and defend and what type of attack/defense you're going to use, then everyone resolves at once.

>>15008208
Good point.
>>15008199
No, shut up, the roll-keep thing is awesome and helps set this game apart.

>>15008173
I think I prefer simultaneous, but this needs to be discussed... so does race.

>>15008173
>>15008199
Turn order was addressed in the prev. thread. Turn based, with Courage dictating Initiative was the general consensus. Though opting to delay and interrupt an opponent's action is certainly viable.

When I was suggesting Turn-based earlier, I was focusing on how virtually every enemy in Zelda takes turns. It defends, then it flashes it's weak point and attacks. Or some will attack, then expose their weak point, then attack some more. Seemed like it correlated will with Turn-based combat.

>>15008208
>>15008249
We had already addressed that there were weapons/attacks that only did quarter-hearts or half-hearts of damage. (3 + Courage + Physical) x 4 would calculate HP, I suppose, but Hearts remain 3 + Courage + Physical.

>>15008250
So... turns sort of like 40k with different phases devoted to different actions, maybe?

>>15008249
all it does is slightly skew the bell curve higher, which can easily be accounted for in a success based system by more dice or a lower target number.

And simply wanting to keep a mechanic because it makes it unique is one of the worst reasons to do so

>>15008274
Okay, as long as it's addressed. Last thread was damn long, I must have missed that in there.

Just to clarify what exactly are we doing with the shield skill?

>>15008208
12 hp, yes, but still 3 hearts. Just like in the games, you could take damage in fractions of hearts.

Also, I just realized if we're having a required minimum value of 1 for all virtues and attributes, it should probably be just 1 + physical + courage. That way your minimum starting hearts is 3.
Or if we allow negative starting attributes, then adjust the number accordingly. Point being, if hearts = 3 + physical + courage and you can't have less than 1 point in any attribute or virtue, your minimum hearts is 5, which isn't right.

>>15008289
Success-based systems are bland and played themselves out in the 90s. The Roll and Keep system is at this point integral to the system, or we wouldn't have the separate attributes and virtues. The issue is not under discussion.

>>15008299
>Shield skill
That I myself wasnt too clear on. I believe it added to your Dice pool when defending against an attack. To black with a shield being something like Shield + Physical, keep courage (or wisdom)

>>15008278
Hmmm... perhaps.

>>15008249
I suppose now's as good a time as any to discuss race. I believe confirmed playable are Hylian, Zora, Goron, Deku Scrub, and Gerudo. With possible additions/supplements of Kokiri, Rito, Subrosian, Moblin, and Skullkid.

any ideas for Racial bonuses?

>>15008289
>And simply wanting to keep a mechanic because it makes it unique is one of the worst reasons to do so

Simply wanting to change a mechanic in a work-in-progress where everyone involved has been thinking in terms of that mechanic for much of the progress of the brewing just because another mechanic can give the same mathematical results is also a shitty reason. You still have yet to give sufficient reason to changing the mechanic other than that you'd prefer something else, so we're not going to overhaul all the progress we've made so far just because you said so.

>>15008309
Ah, easily missed point near the end of the last thread, but we discussed being able to take Attribute scores in the negatives, to please min/maxers. That way, if you really wanted nothing but a brutish Darknut, you could drop Mental down to -2, or take -2 Physical if you wanted a very fragile, but very cunning and adept Sage.

>>15008356
I suggest that instead of races giving stat bonuses, they might just have abilities and bonuses to skills. For instance a Rito can roll Courage/Physical to fly, Gorons keep an extra die on any Bombs roll, etc.

>>15008356
>any ideas for Racial bonuses?
I say to hell with racial bonuses. That's just my preference though. I hate 'em.

>>15008394 here
this idea is good >>15008388

>>15008356
Didn't someone mention Stalfos?

>>15008388
While I agree that no Virtue bonuses should be given, I think that Attribute bonuses should be present. It personally doesnt make sense to me that you could build a Deku Scrub who can have as high Physical as a Goron.

and, minor bit. I don't remember Gorons really being associated with bombs, as a race. Am I forgetting a game?

As to the shield skill it occurs to me that it could also be used to roll to counter magic attacks with a Mirror Shield, and to shield bash (ala TP).

>>15008358
I'd tell you it's quicker and allows for flexible appilications of the mechanics... but if you don't want to listen i'll leave and let you all make things more complicated than they have to be

>>15008356
>Kokori
How are we justifying a Kokori leaving the woods?

>>15008408
Ocarina of Time. Bomb flowers grow on Death Mountain. Gorons pick them and refine them into bombs. Also Goron Link being able to use powder kegs in MM

>>15008394
>>15008388
I like this idea.

Maybe even through a bit of what 4e did, and give each race a unique power?

>>15008428
Makar and Saria left the woods, didn't they?

then again Makar's a Korok and Saria was a sage, so that may be exceptions.

>I'm more of a Wind Waker fan

>>15008425
You have not demonstrated how it is appreciably more flexible. Please contribute.

>>15008428
Special protection by the Deku tree, maybe?

>>15008356
If we're going with a turn-based system, shield skill could simply add dice to your defense pool. Or alternatively, it could be used to sacrifice attack dice for defense dice. For instance, if you had 3 ranks in shield, you could reduce the size of your attack pool by up to three dice, and add that many dice to your defense pool anytime you're attacked until your next turn.

Making it turn-based makes it a bit easier to do virtue-based fighting styles, too. At its simplest, you could have someone using a Power style get a bonus die on the attack, but lose a die on defense, and vice-versa for a Wisdom fighter. Courage would get the baseline number of both attack and defense dice.

And speaking of defense dice...since attacks are done with weapon skills, we'll probably need an evasion skill to keep up. That could also be done with a choice of styles -- either Wisdom or Courage.
And if we're doing styles, we should probably also drop the bows = Wisdom/tools = Courage split for ranged weapons and let players choose between Wisdom or Courage for ranged...

>>15008428
That would be why I dropped them from the "confirmed playable" list.

>>15008434
What power would Hylians get? And I still somewhat believe some Racial bonuses make sense, since Gorons are unarguably bigger and tougher, on average, then other races, Deku Scrubs are as a rule more social (The merchant bastards are EVERYWHERE.) and so on.

>>15008434
That's good thinking!

>>15008463
We could just use Koroks I suppose. Or assume that the inability to leave the woods was a result of the first Great Deku tree to protect them, and in a timeline where the Kokiri are not transformed into Koroks that the second Deku Tree might let them go.

>>15007189
No classes... considering no levels... I like where this is going. Sorry i couldn't be on the ground floor for this, internet was out... for weeks.

>>15008475
Hm. Hylians, as the favored people of the gods, could get an extra roll, perhaps.

>>15007508

Any other concrete examples for when to use skill checks for items, and what skill check results mean?
Roll&Keep is probably the least familiar of the resolution systems around, since I think only L5R is the big system that's known for it.

Stuff like Blade, Bow, and Tool are all pretty intuitive - you can hit things with greater accuracy, or use things more efficiently.

But then some items are sort of inherently binary - like, the Cane of Somaria creates blocks. What does a higher check result mean in this case?

>>15008519
Bigger blocks! or that explosive thing that happens when you dispelled one in LttP

>>15008519
More solid blocks or a lower MP cost or something.

>>15008475
I don't see why we have to force stereotypes. A brawler deku scrub could be pretty cool. Extremely tough 'bark' covering its body.

Likewise, they might play a goron that grew up outside of the mountains, and thus doesn't have its skin made quite as tough from whats up there.

As for Hylians, weapon/armor bonus. Hylians are one of the few races to actually USE manufactured weapons, most others use their natural skills.

>>15008018

I think the major disagreement is more from the fact that Roll&Keep is just unfamiliar. Like I noted, only L5R uses it amongst the many systems that get discussed on /tg/.

If you could walk through some examples specific to the system it would probably help. It's just a matter of wrapping your head around what the numbers "mean", or more accurately, what they are an abstraction of.

>>15008494
Or it could just be a legend to them. In reality, once they leave they go "HOLY SHIT. The world is HUUUUGE. I want to see everything!" and then end up never coming back, and everyone just assumes they are dead.

They are a race of children.

That is totally something they would do.

>>15008530
There you go. That could do.

>>15008549
Not a terrible idea.

>>15008566
Hah! True.

>>15008519
The Cane of Somaria itself is just part of the |Rod| skill, though. The most bare-ass basic of that skill would be the capacity to use the Cane of Pacci, and other mundane, but potentially useful, rods. A character with a very high |Rod| score would wield
the Rod of Fire and napalm everything in sight, for example.

>>15008502
good to have you with us!

>>15008388
This is a good idea, but I would second Sir Scribes argument that at least some races should get attribute bonuses.

Just some brainstorming here...
>Gorons
*I like the bonus to kept dice with bombs
*can roll Power/Physical to make a rolling attack to bowl over the opponent.
*resistance (immunity?) to fire-based attacks
*bonus to physical; penalty to mental? (as far as I can remember, most gorons didn't strike me as particularly bright)
>Zora
*breathe underwater
*bonus to kept dice for swimming checks
*weakness to fire-based attacks
*bonus to mental, penalty to physical? (I seem to recall Zoras tending toward a more scholarly sort of lifestyle)
>Deku scrubs
*bonus to evasion due to size
*bonus to stealth in woodland environs
*bonus on Social checks to barter?
*can roll Courage/Physical to spit seeds as a ranged attack
*I'd say penalty to physical, but...I can't say that either mental or social makes sense for a bonus.

>>15008566
So

Like Kender

only not at all shitty.

>>15008566
I like that as a justification. Maybe tie it in to how the Koroks go and try to plant new Deku trees in faraway places?

That would make the koroks/kokiri some kind of bizarre druid/kender hybrid though...

so can someone tell me what the current rolling structure is? You add what and what and keep what? What modifies it? How does armor, evasion, and blocking work?

'cause i'm lost

>>15007828

>>15008519

Examples of play would seem to be highly appreciated at the moment.

>>15008532
...

Actually, why not have something close to the 3.5 Racial Paragons system?

Instead of putting ranks into a skill, you could put it into Sterotype, or Race, or something like that. If you have no points in it, your completely free from stereotypes, and able to build your character however you want. However, putting points into it would give cool and unique abilities, based on your race.

Each race will basically just be a new skill tree, and you just pick which one you want at level 1, and can't change it.

Or maybe add masks as items, that let you temporarily switch which skill tree you are using, as well as gain access to new ones, not available as race options.

If you DON'T take the racial skills, then your race is more or less just fluff, with no impact on the game.

>>15008620
i guess you could treat it as a specialized perk tree or something, but in that case you need to provide sufficent reason as to why you wouldn't take it

Why do we need to make Kokiri playable, again? What would be the point.

As for whether or not to have racial bonuses... what are racial bonuses? What is the "baseline" for the system, and where do the other races fit on that line. It's pretty obvious Gorons are huge and made of rock, and Zora are fast fish people, and Deku Scrubs are crazy plant people... they can't all have the same stats. They can't even acheive the same minimums and maximums. Even a bark armored Deku is not going to be anywhere near as tough as a Goron of any type.

For skills, careful how you divide them and what skill does what. While bombs, bomb flowers, and bombchus are all kinds of explosives, they are not used anything alike. A bombchu is aimed or driven down a path, it runs. Bombs, bomb flowers, and barrel bombs, are set or thrown. Skills are best divided by use to be more intuitive.

>>15008655
well if i knew how dice pools were put together with any certainty I could help out and all

>>15008595
Roll Attribute+Skill, keep Virtue.

>>15008581
>I'd say penalty to physical, but...I can't say that either mental or social makes sense for a bonus.

Social does. They seem good at begging for their life and they're capable merchants.`

>>15008633
Not really actually.

Think of Link in OoT. He does not act like ANY other Hylian, because he wasn't raised with them.

You can easily explain it as just not growing up around your race. And even if you DID, there are still exceptions. Malak was hardly stereotypical, In one of the games (OoT I think?) there was a Goron who wasn't like the others, and couldn't even roll into a ball.

The list goes on. I think that at this point, pretty much every race has had at least 1 example where they didn't fit the stereotype even remotely close.

>>15008694
so if skills ALSO open up a tree of things you can do... double stacking seems like a bad idea

and then how does that work in with the attribute + virture stuff since that makes utterly no sense when viewed in that light

I really think using skills to dertermine what you keep is better than virtures because then you can more easily mix and match stuff to create specific effects more readily

Here's an example of how the roll & keep, linear comparison system would work.

Suppose character A is attacking character B. Both have Courage as their chosen fighting style. A has Courage 3, Physical 2, and Blade 3. A rolls 5d6 (3 Blade + 2 Physical) and gets 6, 3, 4, 2, 1. A keeps the three highest dice (3 Courage) and ignores the rest: 6, 3, and 4.
B has Courage 3, Physical 2, and Dodge 2. B rolls 4d6 (2 Dodge + 2 Physical) and gets 5, 1, 5, 2. B also keeps the three highest (3 Courage): 5, 5, and 2.

So then you compare the rolls in order from highest to lowest for both combatants.
A's highest was 6, vs B's 5. That's one success.
A's second highest was 4, vs B's 5. That's a failure.
A's lowest kept die was 3, vs B's 2. That's success #2.

So A got two successes. If A is wielding a weapon with a damage increment of 1/2 heart, that means B takes 1 heart of damage (2 successes * 1/2 heart increment).

Armor reduces the damage increment of any weapon used against you. Suppose B was wearing armor that reduced the damage increment by 1/4 heart. B would only take 1/2 heart of damage from A's attack (2 successes * 1/4 heart increment).

Does that help?

>>15008566
I thought it was canon that they stay young forever as long as they never leave the forest and once they do they start to age normally, kinda like Neverland I guess. Apparently there's a theory that Kokiri who leave the forest become Koroks

>>15008704
Elaborate, I'm having a little trouble following.

>>15008718
ok that makes sense but that has more dice being rolled than D&D and will slow things down even more

>>15008723
all the virture+attribute stuff in >>15007372

is that just being thrown out? Because under what you presented you're going to need quite a bit more skills to cover climbing, general athletics, and so on.

>>15008718
Oh my god NO. Just add the roll cumulative, highest wins.

>>15008756
SECONDING LIKE THE FIST OF THE MOTHERFUCKING NORTHSTAR BECAUSE HOLY FUCK THATS 100% COUNTER INTUITIVE IF YOU ARE GOING FOR QUICK AND SIMPLE

>>15008620
I like the idea of a "racial" skill tree, but I think there should probably still be some hard-and-fast racial effects. Barring some bizarre mutation, a Zora will always be able to breathe underwater, a Deku scrub will always blend in with a forest environment, and so forth. Even a Goron who grew up outside of a volcanic environment would probably still be pretty resistant to fire -- that thick skin has to have at least some genetic basis.

If we were talking your typical humanoid fantasy races, I can see the argument against having hard-and-fast racial differences, but there are some pretty significant morphological disparities between the LoZ races that should definitely be reflected in the crunch.

>>15008718
actually I already understood that part just fine. it's unopposed rolls I don't get.

>>15008756
"No" to the linear comparison, or "no" to the whole shebang?

I can see dropping the linear comparison, but I don't think the drop/keep aspect is too bad.

>>15008773
well while i don't like that system i would suggest having a set pool for the obstacle... but even that's pretty stupid

really i'd only use that mechanic in a wargame, its unsuited to an RPG

>>15008791
linear comparison i'm thinking, i don't like the keep and roll because i just don't see what it adds other than making it different but the linear comparison HAS to go

>>15008751
>>is that just being thrown out?

Not to my knowledge

>>Because under what you presented you're going to need quite a bit more skills to cover climbing, general athletics, and so on.
If I have it in my head correctly, for things that don't have skills, you roll virtue+attribute, keep virtue, but I'd have to ask Scribe to be sure.

>>15008809
that arrangement makes little sense espeically since you are giving the virtues double duty

>>15008791
Yeah, you have 6 dice to roll, you keep the three highest capped by attribute, and then you total them. You try and meet skill checks or beat an opposed roll with the total, quick and simple.

And if the roll and keep thing you described is what L5R uses I am staying away from L5R now.

>>15008773
Unopposed rolls go like this:
6=6
5>4
4=4
4>0

>>15008826
I'm not seeing a problem with something pulling double duty. I'm just not seeing where the complaint comes from.

>>15008837
because you then start heavily skewing the worth of things.

it's like dex in Scion, you shouldnt even waste your time with any other stat since having high dex is ALWAYS better

fiqure olverlay

you should try to keep everything with near distinctions so that the value between them all is clearly split

and even then it makes the skills totally an artificial distinction; if you have a sword skill then why don't you have a speechcraft skill or climbing or whatever.

>>15008773
Unopposed rolls we're still trying to flesh out. Most likely it would be similar to >>15008718, but instead of comparing against someone else's rolls it's just a matter of any die over a certain number (which should be the same for every check; probably 4 or 5) being a success. If your dice kept value would be greater than your dice rolled, you shift dice from kept to rolled until that's no longer the case. The number of successes necessary reflects the difficulty of the task. Trivial tasks (ie, something that should be easily accomplished by most anyone) wouldn't require a roll.

So let's say character A from before wants to leap across a chasm. It's non-trivial, but not particularly difficult either; you need to roll, but you only need 1 success to make the jump. Jumping isn't skill-based, it's simply governed by Physical and Courage. A's Courage is higher than his Physical, so for this test he moves one die kept to the dice rolled. Thus, he rolls 3d6 (2 Physical + 1 moved from Courage), getting 5, 3, and 2. A keeps the two highest (2 points left from Courage after moving one to the dice rolled): 5 and 3. Let's assume we decide the number that makes a success is 4. A has one success, so he makes it across safely.

If the chasm was a bit wider, the jump might require two successes. If this was the case, then A's rolls above would not have been sufficient to make the jump, and he falls.

>>15008867
Yes, but virtually everything in the game pulls a double duty. Skills both affect the rolling and offer new abilities, and Virtues keep on all checks and are part of rolls for non-skill checks. That's why there are Attributes, to help differentiate specific applications.

>>15008718
>Both have Courage as their chosen fighting style
This just sounds silly. Obviously everyone is going to use their highest virtue as their "fighting style". Why even have the other two then? Just make melee=power, magic=wisdom, and ranged=courage, or something to that extent (i realize ranged=courage doesn't really make sense). and as I suggested before as you raise you rank in a skill and gain new abilities (as mentioned in OP) you get to choose between a power, wisdom, or courage based ability.

>>15008885
>>15008773
uhh... I actually mentioned Unopposed rolls here. >>15007764

>>15008911
>Just make melee=power, magic=wisdom, and ranged=courage
Not this shit again. I'm going to give you the short version. Ganon, the series' go-to guy for "Power" is one of the best magic-users in the setting. The end. Read >>15007372

Hey Scribe. Have you thought about setting up a channel on Suptg's IRC?

>>15008939
seriously just switch to using skills as the keep stat so you can actually have those mixes be important rather than just shit on the side

>>15008939
Fair enough.
But what about the last part?

>>15008961
and that also helps when it comes to progression of stats since you won't have to have values being all over the place (assuming you're using XP cost to raise stuff)

>>15008911
The talk of fighting styles came up because of the arguments earlier in this thread that restricting things to certain virtues results in pigeonholing. The fighting styles would let you use different virtues for combat, but with slight differences depending on the virtue chosen. One suggestion of how it might work is here: >>15008471
>At its simplest, you could have someone using a Power style get a bonus die on the attack, but lose a die on defense, and vice-versa for a Wisdom fighter. Courage would get the baseline number of both attack and defense dice.

I chose Courage for the example because, as the "balanced" style it represents the simplest way of doing it.

>>15008995
Oh. That I actually like. Sorry I didn't read the thread more carefully.

>>15008951
Your newfangled IRC confuses me. I'm relatively new to /tg/; starting this project one one of my first posts.

>>15008974
>>15008961
The problem with using skills as the keep die is that it becomes physically impossible to succeed with a task if you dont have at least one skill point in the skill. Admittedly, that COULD work, but I'm personally not keen on needing to take the |heavy| skill just to pound a switch down with the megaton hammer.

feel free to disagree with me, I never said I know what I'm talking about.

>>15008961
>>15008974
>and that also helps when it comes to progression of stats since you won't have to have values being all over the place (assuming you're using XP cost to raise stuff)

The rationale behind using Virtues for the keep value was actually because we didn't want the Virtue values changing very readily. It makes sense that you can improve a skill relatively quickly with training, but changing your Virtues is more a fundamental change in the nature of the character, so it should be a bit more difficult to accomplish.

>>15009047
What if we started from a baseline of always keeping at least one die?

>>15009014
>>15009014
Just go here, and type in /join #LoZ

Or whatever you want the channel to be called.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/chat.html

Would be a much easier, and quicker way to chat. And would keep us from having to make 2 million threads and archive them all, because this probably won't be done in just 2 or 3 threads.

>>15009047
then you create a floor for the skills or divide them between skills that start at 1 and those that start at 0 (which required speical training or something)

or since the whole linear-comparison thing sucks, have a skill at 0 half the result or something.

plus since this isn't a video game there are plenty of OTHER solutions available

>>15009095
Hmm... only problem is that I'm not really on 4chan as much as I'd need to be to monitor a chat; archiving is what helps me keep up with what I miss while I'm at school/work/LGS and so on.

>>15009060
well then you shouldn't have things like climbing, socializing, and such relying so heavily on them

put them in skills if you are going to make the virtures slow to change

>>15009132
for climbing and socializing, Virtue remains merely a keep value. Climbing is Physical, and Socializing is... well... Social.

>>15009129
Still, never a bad option to have. I agree that there should be an IRC to discuss stuff more quickly.

>>15009132
Think of it like the difference between skill checks and ability checks in D&D.

>>15009174
and D&D is MONSTROUSLY RETARDED zombie stiched together by nothing more than nostalgia and inertia

>>15009132
>put [climbing, socializing, etc] in skills if you are going to make the virtures slow to change

That is an option we're open to. Notice the liberal use of the word "probably" at the end of >>15007245. That was intended to denote that although the current consensus is that skills for these things won't be necessary, this is not something that's set in stone and it can be changed if evidence to the contrary is brought to light.

>>15009203
All I needed to hear. I'm quite prepared to disregard your opinions now.

>>15009174
This argument can actually work both for and against the current system; after all, D&D *does* have skills for things like diplomacy and climbing and such.

>>15009276
and look how poorly they are handled

in a few rolls you can have an army of slavishly loyal followers

Anyway I didn't mean to create a tangent, this isn't about D&Ds flaws.

All I meant to do was draw a attention to an artificial distinction that serves no real reason.

>>15009276
True, but our skill system seems to be going in a fairly different direction from that of D&D.

Well. I'm far too tired to actually provide constructive input anymore, So I'm going to nod off. Here's hoping we make this thread as productive as the last!

(as a quick question - any thoughts on statting enemies? I'm gathering both zelda-fans and RPG-fans to help me beta-test this sucker when we have enough fleshed out.)

>>15009322
Count me tentatively in to beta. Enemies should probably come last.

>>15009322
I'm down for a beta if you need players.

>>15009297
>All I meant to do was draw a attention to an artificial distinction that serves no real reason.

I'll admit that the distinction is indeed artificial, but there is a purpose. The initial proposed skill system revolved around the items used in the games, and we wanted to try to stick to that as much as possible. We also felt that limiting the skill list would help streamline the game.

However, at this point we already have stealth and (since we've settled on turn-based combat) dodge as non-item skills, it wouldn't hurt too much to add some more if it would help things go a bit more smoothly.

The one thing I personally would be a bit leery about is that adding these as skills could lead to issues like you see in D&D where certain skills get completely ignored because they're too circumstantial to be worth sinking points into. Why put ranks in Climb if you may never have to scale a mountain?

Admittedly, there are ways this can be remedied. You could give players enough points to allow for training a variety of skills (though this would also require caps on how much you can train any given skill at once, to avoid having some munchkin who ignores everything else and sinks it all into dodge and blades or whatever). Rolling the "orphaned skills" into more general consolidated skills would also help.

TL;DR -- it'll take a little effort to make it work right...but then again, I guess that's what this thread's here for, huh?

>>15009313
and thats good

but you need to make sure that everything important is covered

you shouldn't leave gaps 'just because'

>>15009410
well thats why you mash skills together that are outside of the scope of the game

the ones that are more imporant are more granular, the ones that are less important cover more

>>15009322
>(I'm the guy who started this thread, been contributing actively throughout. Just now decided to adopt a name.)

Classes are still in session for me right now, but depending on how long it takes to get the system to a beta-worthy stage I might be able to participate.

>>15009461
True enough.

Anyway, I'm going to head off to bed here, but those of you who will be up can go ahead and work on fleshing out the skill list or whatever.

We could create a divide between combat and non-combat skills. I think the skill list should be small if possible, if possible even shorter than 4e's.

>>15009461
Well see it seems to me that's what we're doing by making all the existing skills item-related.

>>15009606
so then item and non item skills

>>15009624
Sure we could, but why go to that trouble when we've got the Attribute-virtue thing and it seems to be working for most of us well enough?

>>15009657
because that's lazy design and if you're gonna do that you're better off just going to the d20 zelda thing and saving your time

>>15009678
You say lazy, I say efficient and innovative.

Do keep in mind we're trying for rules light, or at least I think we are.

>>15009820
with linear comparison? Either no one got the memo or this project is shooting itself in the foot

>>15009838
If you can get past counting to 6, then it's not too hard to comprehend. The hardest part will be figuring out the ratios of how many to throw vs how many to keep FOR EACH AND EVERY THING. Easy to shorthand for, but there's lots to stat up.

>>15009857
did you not see >>15008718

if you want rules light you should want to minimize the amount rolling and the amount of steps taken in doing so

>>15009820
there's difference between the heavy/lightness of rules and the completeness of their coverage

actually, creating a seperate mechanic to handle the exception area that needs another rule to cover it actually INCREASES the number of rules you have to have.

>>15009965
The use of items is fundamental to the Zelda setting. Do you deny this?

>>15010006
Why would I deny that?

>>15010031
Because the skill system as is is meant to reflect that.

>>15010138
And that necessitates that it shouldn't cover anything else?

gonna need a Riding skill too

TL;DR
THERE NEED TO BE MORE FUCKING SKILLS

>>15010138
YOU. STOP BEING AN INSUFFERABLY STUPID CUNT JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE BUTTHURT ABOUT THE SYSTEM BEING CRITISIZIED

>>15010166
YOU. STOP TRYING TO FILL AN IDIOTS BRAIN WITH STUFF THAT WON'T FIT

Why not just use a butchered version of attack-combat-value and defense-combat-value? BESM and HERO system do this. Now, rolling under like that wouldn't quite work because of the range of attributes and whatnot, but it's a start.

Brainstorming-
Player One has 3 physical, 3 courage, and 2 blade. This adds up to 8. They then add onto this 2d6.

Player Two has 2 physical, 3 courage, and 4 dodge. This adds up to 9, and then they also add 2d6. If P1's score is equal or greater then P2, the attack lands. Alternatively it could be a single dice, for less of a curve, and to make attributes/virtues more important. And weapon bonuses would be pretty straight-forward to add, simply increasing the score based on the quality.

>>15010218
because apparently everyones set on this stupid roll&keep thing because it makes this a special snowflake

>>15008718

This is very helpful, thanks! Allow me to communicate a couple of misgivings I have:

One issue I think that might crop up is that a lot of Zelda is not based around dueling or making opposed checks.

Many Zelda dungeons require you to interact with the environment - use your hookshot to reach a location, using your boomerang to flip a switch, pushing a block, and so on and so forth. That means most of the time checks will be made unopposed.

Secondly, many environmental actions do not exactly lend themselves incremental results either - the switch is flipped when you nail it with an arrow - it's either on or off - it doesn't matter whether or not you hit the switch with three successes or one success - the switch is flipped.

Same goes for items like the Cane of Somaria - most puzzles in the games do not require a bigger or better block, just a block. It makes the whole Roll & Keep system somewhat superfluous.

This is of course, only a dungeon crawling issue, but it again depends on the objective you're going for - is it simply roleplaying in a Zelda setting? Then my criticisms don't matter. On the other hand, if you're trying to capture the feel of the Zelda games, then this might be problematic.

Also, I could see some sort of guidance in terms of translating abstract successes into actual results as being very helpful. This sort of thing will be very familiar to players of dicepool systems like Shadowrun or World of Darkness, but for players and DMs from D&D, where rolls represent binary pass/fail conditions, conceptualizing what 3 successes mean might be difficult.

In fact, I'm sure this is where 99% of the confusion lies; in most D&D systems you simply do not distinguish between degrees of success.

>>15010225
So far they seem more adamant on the attribute/virtue thing, but I honestly haven't read most of the thread. We'll see.

Anyways. It's generally a good rule to stop repeating yourself when people aren't listening, and hope they do the same. Nothing will get done otherwise and it annoys other people.

>>15010229

To tl;dr this entire chunk of text:

Zelda gameplay is based around binary outcomes - you hit/miss, switch on/off. Roll & Keep results in a granular outcome - this smacks of a mismatch.

>>15010229
in WoD you typically only a need a single success unless there's a threshold you need to meet, usually from an opposed roll or circumstances call for making certain things more difficult (like rolling to notice stuff, it might only take 1 success to notice there's a torch off in the gloom, but 3 to notice that it's linked to a trap or something)

>>15010229
I see what you are saying. Of course, you could generalize the difficulty of challenges. Let's say that a simple task might be 15 or under, a medium one 20, and a challenging one 25. That's simple enough to remember, and would be a good target point for unopposed rolls related to skills. Naturally you would have to fine tune it, but it could feasibly work.

D&D does not distinguish levels of success, I agree, other then crits. And that's really not much of a variety. Though, for rule-light systems, it may be best to let the GM look at the rolls and determine how great the result should be.

And on the combat thing, definitely. Zelda fights were quite unique and counter-oriented. I'm just not certain how that would be applied to an RPG. I'll go read through the rest of this thread, see what I have missed.

>>15010236
I have this stupid notion that maybe if repeat myself enough times some or explain it in more simple terms then maybe it'll get though. I just don't think someone who repeatedly demonstrates an inability to analyze things properly should be left to design a system.

>>15010277
Do not try to force a video game mechanic onto a tabletop RPG. Many have gone done that road only to fail.

If i weren't tired as fuck I could help create an approximation that allows for a nod to source while keeping things functional on an RPG level without eliminating options by the dozen.

>>15010277
>15, 20, 25
jesus I hope you're not expecting these kinds of number to appear in this system

>>15010286
Sometimes that doesn't work. Often enough I've taken inspiration at projects, and thought 'Hey, that is unintuitive', then mashed together a system. Perhaps if you came up with a working example and presented it others might agree moreso. Maybe.

That or folk are dead-set on keeping something how it is, and if so it isn't worth the effort to convince them, right or not.

Just playing the role of neutral dude.

>>15010309
What? Those look as pretty as any other number that one might try to roll over with dice. Did you read to the-

>Naturally you would have to fine tune it, but it could feasibly work.

>>15010305

Agree most completely - the long critique I posted is not to suggest the solution is to pull more mechanics straight from the game.

Overall I feel the bare bones of the Courage-Wisdom-Power triforce is really excellent and very true to the source material; and the roll and keep system certainly makes them very integral to the system - I don't think anyone is disputing this, or proposing a D&D style system anymore.

I think the dicepool suggestion instead aims to simply streamline the whole process - rather than Triforce, Attributes, and Skills, simply have Triforce and Skills, simply have the Triforce statistics take the role of attributes directly.

At least, that seems to be the argument.

Still, I think one issue with this dicepool proposal is that it might result in overall lower character diversity; there aren't quite so many ways to make a character.

>>15010392
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly why we put in the attributes. A darknut is not a wizzrobe is not a salesman.

As for how linear comparison complicates the game... wat
It's just a matter of comparing whose individual dice rolled highest. Adding them together takes much longer.

Having access to a partial victory mechanic does strike me as fitting, too. Even if LoZ combat often has a flow of attack/defense/attack/defense, there are often cases of ending up getting hit back, not moving away in time, etc.
Plus partial victory feels dramatically appropriate. It leaves open both for the everyday things like just barely not making it across a gap and grabbing the ledge, to the cutscene-esque instances of two combatants striking each other simultaneously.

For unopposed rolls with the current system: have something like "3,3,3,3,3 (2)" where there's the static range of values to compare against and the number of successes needed in brackets.

For people thinking the current system is slow:
Not doing maths is quicker than doing maths.

>>15011786
i don't see a problem with the current system. it looks more complicated written out than it really is.

This may still just be in the early stage of developing, but this ZRPG already looks promising.

>>15007245
So where would Majora's Mask stuff fall?

Also, I still think we should have two groups of items/classes/settings, with some overlap. It's the best way to handle the split timeline issue.

>>15011950
>classes
fortunately this is a classless system

I dunno if this thread is done or not, but as for the argument about "What? Scrubs as Tough as gorons? BULLSHIT"

Add a mass attribute. It could be used for moving the character and dealing/subtracting damage as wealth as stealth and movement, so you don't have to give the race a specific rule for more stealth or what have you.

Normal Human/Hylian is a mass of 3, Kokiri and scrubs are 2, fairies I guess would be 1, Gorons could be 4 or 5. 4 seems like a good place for Ganon. Anyway, just my two cents.I like what you guys are doing.

this will probably get rejected outright, but I like it so here goes:
attributes = dice pool
virtues = how many rolls you keep
skills = bonuses to all rolls
everything caps at 5. this would only work with d10's because with d6's it would quickly become nearly impossible to fail any average difficulty unopposed test.
So say your shooting at a target of medium difficulty (7+ is a success) with a power 3, physical 3, bows 3. you roll 3d10, and because your relevant virtue is 3 you keep all 3 rolls. You roll a 4, 7, and a 1. The 4 would have been a miss, but because of your skill (3) with a bow it gets bumped up to a 7, which is a success. The 7 was a success anyway, but still gets bumped up to a 10, which would give you a nice edge in an opposed test when comparing your opponents roll. The 1 gets bumped up to a 4, which is still short of the mark, leaving you with 2 successes.
This way attributes represent raw ability while skills represent just that, and even if you max out a skill you still have a marginal chance of failure on a test of medium difficulty and more difficult tasks can still be challenging.

>>15012091
I think this is a good idea

>>15012091
Mechanical elaboration on my idea.

What if you use mass comparisons for opposed checks to say, knockback? A Goron charges a Scrub, there's a difference of 3 in their masses, so the Goron keeps three more dice. If this ends up being more than he rolled, he simply keeps all of them. I think that would represent well that he's able to bring his full pushing/bowling capabilities to bear. Then the difference in masses can also be used to determine extra damage dealt or damage subtracted from the amount rolled, however that is going to work. Also, I advocate Hp instead of hearts. We can view it in terms of hearts, but when talking about damage, quarter and half hearts is a lot more cumbersome than 1 and 2 Hp. The Mass attribute could also govern how much gear a character could reasonably handle, the mass value of an item determining more of how cumbersome it is than it's actual weight. And, if it's not too pretentious, if mass WERE used, it'd give gorons a big advantage (especially in sumo wrestling(unless the opponent is wearing iron boots (+2 mass!))), you could also have a mind attribute for terms of magical power. A fairy could have 5 in that case and a goron could have 1. Magic scrubs is a little funny though. Well... they do blow magic bubble bullets.... Anyway. My ideas.

>>15012128
No, we keep the hearts. Loving the direction you're going, but it seems a little unbalanced right now giving a HUGE bonus to Goron rolling. Still, the mass stat thing is good.

>>15012128
I'd be more in favor of treating the hearts as wounds. Everyone gets three wounds before being incapacitated and gets a -1 penalty per wound to all rolls. Maybe mass could correlate to how many wounds you get or how many you can take before you start getting penalties.

>>15012144
Aw, c'mon. I just mean in term of finding how much damage was done. Conver to Hp, find out what was done, convert back to hearts. Saying, okay, it's a 1/2 heart weapon, I got 2 successes, so a 1 heart, and you're wearing 1/4 armor so you take 3/4 damage is a lot harder to say then, okay, my weapon does 2 damage, got 2 successes, so 4 damage, and you have 1 Armor, so 3 damage. And... that's 3/4 of a heart. And I DO think a Goron, if desired to be a true-blue mountain Goron, should be able to beat any lesser race in a pushing match, almost hands down. Unless that opponent is using magic or mechanical means to level the ground. As for their advantage in damaging things, yeah, it needs to be nerfed in some way. They have great torque, but being able to punch through anybodies chest is more of a Ganon thing.

>>15012160
>We can view it in terms of hearts, but when talking about damage, quarter and half hearts is a lot more cumbersome than 1 and 2 Hp.

While this is definitely true, anyone who's familiar with the Zelda games (and who else is likely to play a homebrewed LoZ RPG?) will have no difficulty following. It's a little element that helps bring it closer to the flavor of the video games.

Of course, if it helps to think of it in terms of wounds or HP you're welcome to do so, but officially it should stay hearts.

>>15012165
It's actually not that hard at all. You can do 4 damage, after you strike you have done 4 damage, that's a whole heart. 4 is a whole heart of damage. Iron Knuckles are among the few things that do multiple hearts worth of damage. A lizard dude with a knife does about 2 damage. Deku scrubs natural nut shooting ability does one damage or sometimes none. If you can't see how this relates directly to heart fractions, like 6 damage being one and a half hearts, then you just need better math skills.

Come on, there is a difference between tedious math like the original roll and keep system suggested earlier, and actually difficult or simple math. We shouldn't balk at easy stuff like basic arithmetic involving 1 or two digits.

>>15012180
*shrug* fair enough. It is pretty trivial and easy to change to suit yourself.

>>15012180
Disregard that, it seems I was ninja'd >>15012165

Or, well...don't "disregard" per se, I think it's still an important point, but it seems we're actually on the same page to begin with.

>>15012144
While it might make for sucky balance on the face of things, I'd say that Gorons SHOULD get massive bonuses for rolling. I can't recall seeing a Goron with a weapon in the games (feel free to correct me if I'm incorrect), so using their body in any way they can kind of makes sense.

One way you could balance it out by using the natural bonuses that different races (Deku Scrubs can dig underground at will, for example) or just plain jump to the side. The thing about the Goron roll is that they find it very difficult to stop themselves once they start, which either screws them over because they won't be able to do anything else or else it just leaves them open to some kind of other attack if they miss.

LoZ RPG? Awesome, I've always been interested in one of tho-

>Dice pools

>>15012225
Hm, hm. How about this: A Goron cannot wear any armor (any damage reduction he gets is from his natural size and fortitude) and without some kind of special exception (I dunno how you guys want to deal with learning how to use items) can only wield heavy weapons (thinking of the Giant's knife, here) and they get a -1 to their keep pool for clumsiness, or bombs, which have some sort of scatter for being thrown (?). They seem like a kill-ya-or-miss-ya kinda race. And that roll should have a cool-down time. Even a forceful shove, should. Anytime in the game anyone pushes anything, they have to pause for breath.

>>15010229
Now, see, if Mr. Doesn't-know-what-the-fuck-a-shift-key-does had made some effort to explain like that we might have gotten somewhere. Still, I'm concerned about that potentially necessitating a large amount of the work we already have in place.

>>15012185
>Come on, there is a difference between tedious math like the original roll and keep system suggested earlier,

Incidentally, I should point out that the roll & keep system contains NO actual math apart from comparing "is X > Y", and in the case of attacks the multiplication of damage increment by number of successes. The tediousness lies in the process of linear comparison, and even there I have to agree with >>15011842:
>it looks more complicated written out than it really is.

Let's compare the roll & keep, linear comparison system to a success-based dice pool like what's used in Shadowrun. In unopposed checks, the only difference between the dice pool and roll & keep is that with roll & keep, you discard all but your N highest dice. This is hardly a difficult concept to understand, and establishes an important role for the Virtues.
In the case of opposed checks, the only difference besides dropping/keeping dice is the linear comparison, which is simply a way of determining a dynamic threshold for success based on your opponent's results.

Now, I could potentially see dropping the linear comparison in favor of a success-count comparison as used in Shadowrun 4e if it proves too overwhelming, but as for the roll & keep mechanic itself, the difference in complexity between that and a regular dice pool is negligible.

>>15012160
I can't agree with this, it's too remote from that Zelda feeling.

>>15012104
Applying it with d6s works fine, you just have lower ratings in your skills than on a d10 system. I think it'd still get messy, though.


Mass: Good idea. Should be a racially determined attribute. Don't want it to have too strong effects, in order to avoid shoehorning. Some possibility of altering it (at chargen, probably), by say +1/-1, accounting for different builds, fatness, etc. Have it affect movement speed? I think there seems to be some correlation between speed and size, generally speaking, even though you'd figure a Hylian should run faster than a Deku, catching up with one is really fucking hard.
Some racial abilities would play in here, Zora have their swimming, Gorons can roll. Actually, an idea: If base movement is decreased by mass, Gorons rolling could add their mass to speed instead. Maybe after one turn of moving at normal speed or so, if we want the buildup time. This means an unusually slightly built Goron would move faster than others normally, but not get as much speed in his roll, while a fat Goron walks slower but rolls way harder.

Armor: Should probably apply to each hit, not the total damage.

>>15012253
I dunno, this seems to do Gorons a lot of favors. And what about lightweight races like Deku or (eventually) Rito? What do they get to compensate?

>>15012241
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Honestly, I personally am usually on the same page with you, I don't really like dice pools. But for some reason, it strikes me as a good fit for this game.

You specifically might be interested in the d20 Zelda game linked to in >>15007520; those of us working on this system just felt that it didn't really capture the feel of the source material.

>>15012290
Deku can burrow, shoot bubbles, hide easily, skitter really fast, and are probably really accurate with a sling shot.

Rito can fly, are musically and navigationally adept, and probably much better socially.

Both of them would be a lot more capable magic wise, too. I suggested a Mind stat, offhand, which would be something that shows how good the race is at magic.

>>15012290
To clarify, they're more maneuverable, but it doesn't seem like they get much defensively speaking, especially since we're not assuming a tactical, minis-based thing.

>>15012277
I like the idea of mass affecting movement speed. That seems appropriate given what we see in the games.

>Armor: Should probably apply to each hit, not the total damage.
I may be misinterpreting what you mean, but I think that's how we're already handling it. Armor reduces the damage taken for each success your opponent gets on the attack, effectively reducing the damage increment of their weapon.

>>15012317
Well it sounds to me like it's nothing that Physical and Mental couldn't already manage. A high-physical character is going to be pretty buff no matter what. Forgive my lack of clarity, it's early here.

>>15012317
>I suggested a Mind stat, offhand, which would be something that shows how good the race is at magic.

We have a Mental attribute, I think that's what you're going for. It's main use is for magic.

>>15012253
I don't like the huge emphasis on race this brings with it. Goron characters shouldn't HAVE to be big, nude brawlers. They should definitely be good at it, the best just looking at basic levels of it, but locking them in like that, no.
However, making some things of less interest to them than they would be for others is definitely fine.

And yeah, for the rolling, I think it should hurt like hell if used in combat, but you need some distance to build up to it, so you declare it one round, do nothing else, then the attack is actually executed the next. Sound good?

>>15012360
>And yeah, for the rolling, I think it should hurt like hell if used in combat, but you need some distance to build up to it, so you declare it one round, do nothing else, then the attack is actually executed the next. Sound good?

This actually makes perfect sense to me, especially since in-game the roll attack does usually involve a "windup".

>>15012377
I agree. Seems eminently sensible.

>>15012328
That's what I meant, yes. It seemed to not be phrased like that before, though. Good, good, either way.

>>15012336
Well, yes, but the argument earlier was that by using virtues, a Scrub can be as brawl-worthy as a goron. Virtues and abilities seem individual for the character. There needs to be some sort of racial statistic that gives the base ability of the race, which is then built upon by virtues. Perhaps you could pump a Scrub with power, and it's as good as a courage focused Goron in terms of physical might, but a power focused Goron (if the player wants to be REALLY creative with their character) should trump all other races in terms of staying power. We are just giving the player points to put in virtues upon creation, right?

>>15012405
I agree with this idea.

>>15012405
>We are just giving the player points to put in virtues upon creation, right?

That was the plan, yes. Probably on a scaling system, something like:

>1 --> 2: costs 1 point
>2 --> 3: costs 2 points (total cost: 3 points)
>3 --> 4: 3 points (total cost: 6 points)

Or something to that effect, anyway. I'm not sure exactly what scale would be best for keeping things balanced.

>>15012405
Yeah, I dunno if we'll end up at scaling costs or simple distribution, though.

A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.

>>15012528
>A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.

I wanna see a drawfag on this. Just sayin'...

A thought on the Mass mechanic -- would it perhaps be better to use a more general Size mechanic instead? It would include everything we've talked about for Mass -- movement speed, knockback effects, and stealth -- as well as affecting your ability to wear armor (like how young Link in OoT can't wear the special tunics obtained as adult Link). Thus, while Gorons wouldn't be completely barred from wearing armor, it would make it more difficult for them to find armor that fits.

>>15012360
Everything in this post +1

>>15012528
>>15012526
In my own opinion, I'm in favor of simple distribution for virtues. Though, perhaps Attributes could scale.

>>15012528
>A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.
Picturing this made me laugh. Hard.

>>15012405
I know you were just making an analogy, and I think we've decided on no races receiving an VIRTUE bonuses, but I pictured Gorons being Courage-based, as opposed to power, since Courage is our current virtue for resilience and endurance. Just my opinion, though.

>>15012253
Unfortunately, regarding no armor for Gorons, the games have contained at least one armor-wearing Goron. Twilight Princess' miniboss in the Goron Mines. There wasnt a LOT of armor, admittedly, but still.

>>15012710
X| Sounds like you're just changing the name and adding something extra. Whatever sounds better, though.

Anyway, since we're concerned about pigeon-holing races, how about this:

Each race has three archetypes. Big, Smart, and Brave. Just kidding, Power, Wisdom and Courage. Each gives different advantages and allows the race to be played in a different way, though each race would have a favored archetype.

So, a Power archetype'd Goron would be like Darunia. Big (Mass (or size) 5)), muscular, solid and combat focused. Rigid and socially/magically inept, but god damn, can he wrestle down a dodongo and shove a bomb down it's throat. Wisdom would be like a Goron elder, you know, they're all small and shrivelled. Would have a mass (or size) equal to that of a Hylian, though just a little tougher, and would be maybe shamanic? Good with fire based magic? Courage would be one of those dopey looking ones you see everywhere. Big, friendly, well rounded guys, with masses (or sizes) of like 4. You can do that for all the races. That gives you flexibility within a race.

>>15012710
Size sounds good to me. Oh, and the heaviest armors could increase Size. Probably still reducing Goron speed even while rolling (ie only their inherent Size would have its effect changed).

>>15012828
Items allowing you to change your effective size sounds like a good idea. It gives us a mechanic for the Iron Boots to use.

I think certain items should have 'tags' to say "I have this effect on these things".

So Fire Arrows, Lanterns, Torches (lit), etc. all have the "Fire" tag that lights Torches, turns Keese into Fire Keese, make Bombs explode, etc.
Bombs, Ball and Chains, Hammers, etc. all have the "Smash" tag that destroys certain walls, activates certain switches, etc.
___

This could also work for part of the monster rules - Armos only taking damage from weapons with the "Smash" tag and so on.

>>15013121
This could work. Certainly in-theme with the games. Would we have an "Explosive" tag? Since bombs wreck Darknuts, for example, but the Ball&Chain do diddly shit.

>>15013121
That actually sounds like a pretty good idea.

>>15013139
Explosive makes sense. Probably could use an Ice descriptor as well. Possibly Cut and Pierce? I don't recall if there was anything in the games that cared about that or not...

>>15013168
Pierce, not really, but as of WW and TP lots of things, like ropes, respond to being cut.

>>15013121
You. You're awesome. Keep it up.
>>15013168
Arrows and arguably hookshots pierce. Link can sometimes stab rather than slash. Moblins often have spears.

Besides, Piercing could be awesome. Who hasn't wanted to go all Scorpion and be like "GET OVER HERE!" with the hookshot?

>>15013211
Speaking of the hookshot, should there be some kind of Grip or Grapple descriptor, for things like those masked enemies, or should that just be left to a case-by-case basis?

>>15013282
Good thought. Grapple would also work for things like Morpha, or lightweight enemies.

>>15013211

If the enemy is heavy enough, you'd get pulled to them (which I think happens in the games). Then again, what are Iron Boots for?
___

Actually, mentioning Iron Boots, they'd probably give you the same Mass/Size/whatever as Gorons, since you sink in water when wearing them.

Also, Goron adventurers would be desparate for "Helium Boots" at the merest hint of a Water Temple.

Good ideas, good ideas! Just don't go overboard, making things so specific you HAVE to always have a particular thing on hand to accomplish anything. Shorthands for things that can be set on fire/cut/etc., though, excellent! But really, smashing? Is that to say then, that most things couldn't be smashed eventually? Of course, some things would be easier to smash or blow up than others, but still...

>>15013312
How about, if an object or creature has more mass than you, you're pulled to it, if it has less, it's pulled to you. If it has equal mass, then either whoever fired the hookshot gets to choose (either they can dig their feet in or jump forward), or it becomes a contest of physical/power.

>>15013496
>it becomes a contest of physical/power.

Dis idea I like.

>>15013496
I'm imagining hookshot'ing into a Goron's belly then trying to pull him down until he grabs the chain and yanks me flat on my face.

>>15013518
I may have to drawfag this later.

Looks like noon-ish on a Sunday is a slow time for /tg/. I'm going to play some Twilight Princess and come back.

>>15013734
So how are you going to handle items that increase your skills and stats? Just giving a bonus? Like the Bunny Hood in Majora's Mask, that increased your movement speed and your jumping distance.

Also, for the potential character sheet? To help out with Hearts? Do the Hearts display like health levels on a nWoD sheet. Have the hearts displayed, divided into fours; display say, 10 of them. Underneath each, have a box to fill in to show that you have those hearts. So you can get Heart Containers and stuff as magical items that make you more hearty. Or just increasing your Physical or whatever.

When you take damage, however, do the reverse of NWoD. Instead of going left ot right, go right to left. Put a check inside the damage, going backwards from right to left.

Example: Rusl the Hylian has 3 Hearts, so he has 12 sections. Rusl is stuck WAY away from Ordona and is locked out of Hyrule Castle-Town, and is trying to get to Kakariko before Stalchildren overwhelm him. He is hit by the arm of a Stalchild, taking 2 damage after whatever calculations. Rusl's player marks off 2 sections of his furthest-right heart; before he gets to Kakariko Village and inside it's protected borders, he takes five more, leaving him with 1 untouched heart, 1 heart with 1 tic, and 1 heart with 4 tics. To me, that's a good 'visual' way to represent the Hearts without just saying 'A heart is 4 HP' and gives a neat little feel to the game.

Thoughts?

>>15014046
Same guy. Also, on defenses. In most of the games, it seemed that defenses were pretty absolute, except in some specific cases (fire attacks when equipped with a Wooden/Kokiri Shield, fire of any sort as a Dekunut), why not just allow defense as a 'reaction' to being attacked. Not including armor (which, like in the original LoZ, just reduces damage), for things like Shields, Zora Fins, Dekunut Bark, or Goron Roll-Up, primarily. Like just swinging out the shield or whatever. Shields offset the damage done by the Shield's rating and your Shield skill, so a Wooden/Deku Shield is 1, and Shield of 3 offsets 2 damage. If you choose to react to an attack with Defense, then you benefit from this but that's your action; and you can't react with Defense if you've already taken an attack action that turn of combat, sort of like Dodge in NWoD.

Doing it this way, you can't really turtle in combat effectively, as you'll be doing nothing but defending and probably fleeing.

>>15014149
Same guy. God I can't type. I meant 'Wooden/Kokiri Shield rated 1 and Shield skill of 3 offsets 4 damage'. I think I should get some caffiene.

>>15014166
Same guy. Also, here's something I made for an RPGnet thread a couple years ago. Figured you might get some use out of it.

>>15014204
It's mostly good, but the R looks really off to me for some reason. Also, the border could stand to be shinier but it's not necessary.

>>15014214
Well, all I did was stick the text on it with CS3 (it was for a 'what RPGs don't exist that should' thread), let me attach the un-texted background that I snagged (sadly, for the life of me, I can't remember where; a google search for zelda book cover might bring up something)

>>15014046

I like it, especially if the hearts are in quarters.

Also, instead of a little box, you could put a border around the edge you can colour in.
Because I like colouring in.

>>15014149

This sounds pretty good too, especially if there are special shields like the Mirror Shield that have a rating of 20 (or whatever massive number you like) against certain attacks.
Although the reflection would probably be a special quality instead...
___

"treatment matitsF", Captcha? When did you become such a pervy woman?

>>15007372
>Wisdom/Physical
>One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.

This makes perfect sense. Consider Sheik as the paragon of this combination and you know what combat with a Wisdom/Physical would be like. High mobility, stealth and items such as flashbombs, throwing darts, and bladed chains would be their forte.

>>15014274
Yeah, I was thinking split them into quarters. When all of your quarters have a tic in them (don't color in, it's too much to erase, I mean, after about six months I have to recopy my NWoD sheets because of erase-wear, so that's the thought process there) you're knocked unconscious or dead or whatever.

As well on Defenses, yeah. Certain Shields or defenses have other qualities to them, like the Mirror Shield reflecting energy (or like in OoT, absorbing then blasting) or the Zora's underwater electric shield doing damage (which could be modelled as a 'damage the attacker' special feature of Zora Fins for blocking, perhaps at the cost of some Magic Bar). IIRC (and I might go load up my cart and play again), the Darknuts/Iron Knuckles in the Spirit Temple, even with defending with the Hylian/Hero's Shield, will still do damage over your shield blocking, so there's precedent (I think) for having overwhelming attacks still do their reduced damage (like cracked bones from slamming a shield too hard, or slammed off your feet and into a wall or pillar for roleplay exposition of how the damage happens).

Racial differences still haven't been settled. I kinda liked an earlier idea about a stereotype tree, where maybe every level you get points to put in generic things, like virtues or item skills, or you can move up the Racial stereotype tree where you get bonuses specific to the race. It could have three branches. No points for guessing what those branches are.

>>15014496
Goron, Deku, and Zora?

Then where do Human, Kokiri, and Hylian fit in?

>>15014496
This really isn't that hard. Using Majora's Mask as the basepoint for the four main playable races. Each Race has something that they're good at and get bonuses to, and something they suck at, and get penalties to. Generally there are 2 bonuses and one penalty. This is assuming that points would normally be spent in skills or attributes on a 1-for-1 basis, which my race thing changes the formulae.

Humans/Hylians/Hyruleans: +1 to any one virtue of their choosing after assigning Virtues (as chosen of the Goddesses), all Skills always cost 1-for-1 as they are the most common people and have their hands in everything. I can't really come up with a weakness here, though. :(

Deku Scrub: Civilized Deku Scrub always benefit from +1 dice on any Social roll, due to the generally genial nature of the species. Deku Scrubs also have the capability to use their nature for short flight with thier leaves and to fire short-range Ranged attacks (equivalent to the Slingshot in terms of power and range); this ability costs Magic Bar. Deku Scrubs, being wooden, however, take an extra +1 dice of damage from any Fire-based source, such as a Fire Keese or Dodongo's breath attack.

More in next post...

>>15014558
Oh, whoops. I guess I wasn't clear. [Race], then three trees of racial upgrades, Wisdom, Power, Courage.

>>15014560
Zora: The race of aquatic beings have the natural capability of breathing underwater; additionally, this allows then a +1 die for mobility and action checks underwater. When a Zora defends with their fins in combat, they can spend Magic Bar to do 1 die worth of damage back to their opponent upon being struck. Zoras, however, are weak to ice magic; ice magic does +1 dice of damage to any Zora.

Goron: Hearty and rocklike, Goron's are immune to all Fire-based damage (or perhaps just receive insane damage reduction, Goron Link was completely immune to lava damage) and gain +2 Size (and corresponding bonuses, such as potentially Hearts). Goron may also spend a turn rolling into a ball and using this for an attack; this ability costs Magic Bar. Gorons are huge and heavy, however, and always take a -1 to any athletics, speed or finesse-related Skill rolls (to be determiend by the GM or me when I go back and find the skill list), and take +1 dice of damage when underwater (to represent the autodeath drowning in MM).

Gerudo: The Gerudo are lithe and speedy; Gerudo receive a +1 dice bonus to any speed, agility or finesse-based dice rolls (see Goron description above). Due to this, they are not as hearty however; Gerudo take +1 dice of extra damage when struck by Heavy weapons, and take 1 extra point of damage when Defense is Overwhelmed.

... okay, that's not bad stuff. You guys want me to do any other specific races, if you like those?

>>15014609
One thing I had also thought about as weaknesses for the other races was skill costs; but with a very fine skill list, it's probably not as good of an idea as I thought it was (which is why I went with more race-specific bonuses/weaknesses in my writeups). I'd have to alter Hylians, or at least find a good weakness to offset +1 virtue point.

>locatio capability

Well, captcha, most Hylians are good navigators, even without maps. so I don't think that'll work.

>>15014609
Kokiri.

>>15014609
Gorons shouldn't have to spend magic to roll into a ball, what about that one goron from OoT that was CONSTANTLY rolling?

The magic would be to add spikes, if we're going by how it works in-game.

>>15014609

If you have ideas for them, I'd like to hear them.
___

Sample monster:

Keese
Life: 1/4 Heart.
Attack: 2k1.
Damage: 1/4 Heart.
Traits: Flying, Wanderer, Change (Fire -> Fire Keese, Ice -> Ice Keese).

>>15014685
Increased speed. Spikes seem to be a "unique to hero" aspect, and make no sense biologically. Goron magic powers should also increase strength, toughness.

Any zora love?

>>15014685
Sorry; I thought that was implied. We'll amend it to be 'While rolled into a ball, a Goron can spend one turn and <X> Magic Meter to grow spikes. These spikes deal damage as a <whatever 2-damage sword, equivalent to the Razor Sword in MM>. This costs <X> Magic to maintain each round; if the Goron leaves their rolling form, the spikes dissipate and must be reformed from scratch'.

For Kokiri, let me think...

Kokiri: Children of the Great Deku Tree, Kokiri are magical in nature. Guided by faeries, Kokiri are capable of using the aid of the faerie to analyze their enemies to find weak points, giving the Kokiri a one-time +1 dice of damage to an attack or find other secrets (at GM discretion, such as Hookshot Locations or Scarecrow Spots). Additionally, due to their magical nature, Kokiri gain +1 dice on any Magic roll. Due to their stature as children, however, Kokiri receive -1 (or -2, if appropriate) size, and all the penalties that would give (such as less starting Hearts), as well as taking 1 extra damage when Defense is Overwhlemed.

>>15014560
Wouldn't Deku also have a size penalty?

I mean, the princess could fit in a bottle.

>>15014737
Eh. The spikes, since they required MP to activate, seemed a magical effect to me that Goron's might be capable of. Plus the idea of a Goron charging an enemy emplacement of Lizalfos and going 'HAH!' and growing spikes and destroying them as he bowls through their defenses is awesome to me.

>>15014770
The Princess was really a special case, since a lot of the other Deku (King, Butler, guards) were relatively the same size as the Hylians. I'd chalk the Princess fitting into the bottle to be a complaint about people having to pick up and toss Ruto around the belly of Jabu-Jabu in OoT or a 'story versus gameplay' segregation moment. Or perhaps related to their ability to scrunch down into the Deku Flowers.

You could impose a size penalty on the Deku Scrub if neccessary, but they all weren't shown to be small. Also, I was thinking about Deku Scrub Link being immune to the poison in Woodfall, and I can't recall if this is the case or not.

>>15014797
Nope. He can just bounce over it.

>>15014915
which reminds me, deku scrubs can't swim

I'm a fan of the idea that Deku scrubs have a LOT of weaknesses, but can do a number of things no other race can do to compensate for it

for example, they could hide underground and LIVE in those flowers, in addition to being able to leap out of them, fire projectiles, bounce across water for a limited time, and a number of other things that are possible simply due to their physiology

>>15015058
This is all true. Do we really want to go through and make the physiology of the races that impacting though? That means Hylians get fucked like humans in most tabletop RPGs with no real special qualities.

Where did this with size bonuses and penalties come from? I thought of size as something that had both positive and negative consequences.

Also,
>>15014560
>>15014609
>>15014749

What do you mean by extra die of damage? And what is Overwhelming?

(hello again)
>>15014609
>>15014560
Most of these sound good, though I'm not entirely sure about the Gerudo, mostly just because I remember Iron Knuckles being Gerudo, though I could be wrong.

One of my friends insists on playing a Twili, got any ideas for those? I'm thinking mental bonusers and resistance to darkness, with vulnerability to light.

>>15014727
looks good, but what does "Wanderer" do? For something bigger, mind making beta stats for OoT-era Gohma? want to see how something big and tough, with a specific weak point would look.

>>15015106
Extra die of damage meaning extra die for rolling in the purposes of the R#K setup. Like if you are normally going to roll 4K2, you'd roll 5K2, giving you the chance for bigger numbers.

Overwhelming was something I brought up when talking about Defense and shields above, and how in the Zelda games defense is normally absolute (if you defend with your shield, you generally take no damage), except for a few cases that I vaguely recall like a Darknut smashing the hell out of you with it's axe or hammer. Overwhelming was simply a term for 'if the damage exceeds the Shield values, the excess carries over' (IE: If something hits you for 5 and your Shield absorbs 4, you'll still take 1) that I stuck in the race descriptions.

For size, I assumed that bigger size had benefits (like the discussion about Hookshoting a Goron's stomach and being pulled off your feet) and lower size beyond the 'normal' for Hylians had penalties, and was just kindof throwing out ideas.

>>15015130
The only Iron Knuckle that was a Gerudo was the brainwashed Nabooru. The rest of them were only exampled as constructs within the Spirit Temple, unless I completely missed something when I killed them.

>>15015173
Duly noted. I had forgotten only one was a Gerudo.

...And in other news, Looks like that's our bump limit. This thread is on the page 15 express now.

Who wants to make a new thread?

>>15015237
YES

>>15015158
I figured we'd make it a bit more interesting than big = good, small = bad.
Large Size leads to lower movement, stability, and being easier to spot. Smaller ones would move faster and hide more easily, but be knocked around more easily as well. Also, with the hookshot matter, being small is a positive if you want the transport aspect, while being big is good if you want to pull things to you.

Yes, I am now imagining a bunch of Deku Scrubs hookshoting through the air.

Argh. started a new thread, and wrote down what we have so far in Wordpad to copypasta it over, but my internet's being stupid.

>>15015368

>>15015130

Challenge accepted. I'll put it in the new thread (hint hint).

A multi-stage boss could be fun to stat too.
___

"knonon one:", eh, Captcha? NONONON.