In Pathfinder, a caravan guard gets paid 100gc a week.

Well, if it's a fantasy world, so the taxes are crippling for the commoners to support a bloated nobility.

Adding taxes into my Roleplaying Games is a level of simulationism that just sounds way too mundane and tedious when we could be spending that time having a crazy adventure.

>Also, I've read sometimes here that 3.5/pathfinder economy is fucked up, how so?
Finished goods being worth less than the components to make them.

>>16073770
actually in medieval countries only the nobles would have to pay taxes

>>16073747
Your average magic user can produce billions of gold worth of items on a whim. Certain items would end up costing nothing, really.

Unless I planned on using taxes as an adventure hook, the assumption is that taxes are generally handled on the part of vendors and owners who pass the cost on to the player as an integral part of their prices.

Not a bad idea to have a tax collector show up at someones castle and demand back taxes, and then watch hijinx ensue though.

>>16073795
Then why did Robin Hood robbing from the rich to give to the poor?

>>16073777
I never used taxes in my games, I was just thinking about the possibility.
>Finished goods being worth less than the components to make them.
I thought the components were 1/3 of the market price...

All taxes and economic decisions of the kingdom are handled by the MathLich, a reviled being who is the only reason the kingdom prospers. He and his army of calculatorzombies ensure that more money comes in then leaves or else and are backed by the tax collector skeleton army.

>>16073795
Fantasy world.

In 3.5/ Pathfinder its incredibly easy for players to hypothetically destroy the in-game economy thanks to wizard fuckery. If players choose to do this, the DM is forced to show them the chain of consequences - price drops, price hikes, unemployment, etc, which detracts time from the adventure.

>>16073767
that's the monthly wage you stooge

>>16073868
> Calculator Lich runs the fantasy economy with an army of Auditors
> That's what all those Dungeons are for

And the Calculator Lich grows in complexity with each passing tale.

>>16073795
That's just wrong.

Clergy were untaxed.
Nobles only had a pittance taxed.
Burghers were moderately taxed.
Peasants were taxed like woah.

The difference is only the nobles and people in the king's domain were taxed directly by the "state" itself. Everything else trickled up through the feudal hierarchy. Taxing was mostly informal anyway, consisting mostly of the feudal lords riding out around their lands and saying "Yeah, give me that, that, that, and 30% of your crops come harvest time. Oh, and I'm going to have sex with your daughter now." And then they did.

>>16073889
Like that makes it any better.

>>16073855
Because he was invented by people who knew jack shit about what Middle Ages looked like.

Up until very recently, history was a literary genre, not a science. XVIII century courtiers literally had no idea what the society was like a hundred years earlier, and nobody cared to check. And John Lackland wasn't a popular man in England, either.

>>16073767
So is there a limitless supply of gold somewhere?

>>16073911
There's probably an elemental plane of gold (there's certainly one of minerals), and the true planes are by definition infinite.

>>16073892
>>16073868
Wait, does he use the necrocomputer to do calculations?

>>16073911
nope the caravan has to earn money to pay the wages of those that work for it

anyways that is part of section of optional rules

>>16073909
The difference is that in a fantasy world, these fictional assessments of the past are actually true.

>>16073938
Care to tell where are those rules? I'd like to give a check.

>>16073911
Wizards and the Elemental Plane of Earth.

>>16073948
Jade Regent Player's Guide you can download it for free from Paizo

>>16073938
Seriously? If I play that campaign am I going to lose WBL to pay some guards? When hiring a hireling more powerful than the guards would only cost like 6 silver pieces a day?

>>16073934
Makes as much sense as any of the other ComputerLich theories. A giant dungeon full of binary skeletons/ zombies performing calculations to keep the world's fantasy economy running.

The BBEG could be trying to upset this process and the PC's have to stop them.

Well, taxes are paid to the king. He usually takes 1/10th of whatever is made, more if you're poor. If you've been gone for a while, you may just have to pay upkeep or something.

To me, though, having a base of operations takes away from the adventure somewhat. My base is wherever the team is, and that's usually in the nearest tavern.

>>16073938
But if a caravan guard gets 100 gold pieces a month, that means that merchants can afford to pay that much. Every caravan will need more than one guard and a trader will probably have more than one caravan. So merchants are spending hundreds of gold coins just to move things.

Basically, it means the entire economy is massively inflated and only makes sense if there's a huge amount of gold. Real medieval economies were unable to expand beyond a certain level thanks to the gold standard.

>>16073997
you can only have up to 5 caravan guards

>>16073747
>Also, I've read sometimes here that 3.5/pathfinder economy is fucked up, how so?
The prices are set in the rules. It also disregards both magic and realistic labor.

>>16074026
That's 500 gold a month. That's ridiculous.

>>16074032
How do you deal with it? You just run with it or use prices determined by you?

Any historian-fags know how much people would have earned in the medieval period?

>>16073969
Oh nice, it requires be registered tho. Is it too much of a bother if I ask you to upload it somewhere?

>>16074050
Usually about a bushel of potatoes every other month.

>>16073981
But then the church takes another 10%, then you have to pay 20% to adventurers to get them to kill the goblins then another 20% to the adventurers to stop them killing you.

>>16074060
Wall of iron and craft times being a function of the final product's market price, for example.
>>16074043
I have no way to set the prices myself, so I run with it, and tell the players not to fuck with it.

>>16073997
If gold wasn't functioning as a currency due to limited supply (which would have a deflation effect,which would slow growth, but certainly wouldn't stop it) a barter system or other metals would take it's place.

What should be of concern would be caravan revenue and and profit margins. It's quite possible caravan guards are the primary factor in the price of caravan goods, but so long as 1 guard can guard more than 100g worth of profit, it makes sense. The real question is whether the profit on a caravan beats the opportunity costs of the next best thing.

It's also entirely possible that 100g also doesn't cover living expenses on the road, so while thy make 100g, how much of that goes back to the caravan economy for food, shelter, and so on?

>>16074090
the caravan supplies food when traveling but you have to buy your own shelter or sleep in the wagon, when in town you have to buy your own food and shelter

The usual medieval fare: serfdom, tolls and tithes. Modern style taxes didn't work then, and wouldn't work in a fantasy setting unless there's some magic accounting involved.

Peasants work off their "taxes" by working a certain number of days a week on the personal fields of their lord. Tolls are paid to the bridge owners and such. Tithes are giving away one tenth of what you produce (as in, in kind, not in currency) to a designated authority.

OH FEUDALISM YOU SO FUN

>>16074153
most fantasy games don't use the feudal system

>>16073909
There is evidence, in the logs of various gaols, of various "robin hoods" being locked up at different times, suggesting that a "robin hood" is simply a name applied to a certain type of criminal (most likely highway brigands).

>>16074043
Personally, I just make up prices that seem appropriate.

The fundamental problem with D&D economy (It's not a 3.5 specific problem at all) is that it's balanced as a game mechanic, and doesn't translate well at all into actually making any sense. Things like the price of a longbow are just obscene, but it's there for a reason, and you can adjust shit like that easily if you like (in b4 HURR NO HOUSERULES).

The other problem is that creating a believable economy is just a ton of damn work. I once tried to calculate a realistic price of a apples in a city of Eberron. It was complicated as hell (transport costs, goddamn), but a side effect of the calculations was a much more realistic world. It's a ton of work and I don't begrudge anyone in a non-modern setting with a BS economy.

CARAVAN GUARDS ARE PAID 100GC BECAUSE THEY ARE GENRE SAVVY.

IT IS AN INSURANCE PAYMENT AGAINST THE APPEARANCE OF PLAYER CHARACTERS.

PLAYER CHARACTERS WHO SIGN ON AS GUARDS DOOM THE CARAVAN TO DESTRUCTION AT THE HANDS OF HIGH CR MONSTERS. THE HIGH PAYMENTS ENSURE THAT WHEN THIS HAPPENS, THEIR WIDOWS AND CHILDREN ARE PAID WELL.

>>16074169
No it doesn't. I don't think about how useful a chicken can be to me before I buy it, and I can't convert this usefulness in currency. People are willing to pay based on how much money they can spend.
Prices are set by supply and demand mechanics.

>>16074406
There are plenty of luxury goods that are in high demand but aren't particularly useful. Jewelry, for example.

>>16074406
Demand isn't set by utility. Demand is set by need. Something that is not always rational.

>>16073878
This doesn't work in PF so easily - you're always spending more money to get the spells that would normally fuck with the economy to work than you can make with them. Wall of Iron, for example, is made out of pot-iron, and is utterly useless if you break pieces of it off. Wishes cost 25,000 in diamonds, and you can't wish for anythign more expensive than that. You have to bribe effriti with services and money to get them to use wishes in your favor, and since it is the effriti granting the wish, not some nameless power or the like, he can screw you ten ways to Sunday on it if he so desires.

Also, breaking a ladder gives it the destroyed condition, and makes it worthless for making staves out of. Likewise, you have to have the material to fashion a quarterstaff, even though it costs no money to make it.

>>16074406
Usefulness is mostly a yes/no matter. Demand is set by the number of people who can afford it.

>>16074414

There are plenty of luxury goods that are in high demand but aren't particularly useful. Jewelry, for example.

Luxury goods aren't affected by normal supply and demand mechanics. They are affected by the human psyche.

Must have goods like food and water, cars (except luxury cars) and internet, and so on, are your standard must have goods.

>>16074432
What's pot-iron ?

Also, money-powered magic fuck yeah.

>>16074349
It's really stupid. I hope it's a typo or something. It would cost less to hire a more powerful warrior as a hireling for a month to join you on your caravan.

>>16074522
>>16074431
>>16074414
Luxury goods are useful : they are shiny and show that the buyer spent a lot of money.
Usefulness means "is the product used ?" not "is the product used in a manner that has a positive material effect for the user". Irrationality and what exactly is a basic need are irrelevant here.

That being said, usefulness still isn't the measure of the price of an item.

>>16074537
Pot metal is a very cheap sort of metal that is mostly zinc based that has a lot of other metals in it, making it cheap and hard but largely without much value beyond die-casting it, and also makign it susceptible to multiple forms of degradation from within as well as without. It's generally used to make cheap costume jewlery and old heavy machine parts in the past.

Basically, Wall of Iron isn't as much iron as it is random metals with a sheathing of iron, from the way they discus it's unusability if broken. Almost like they realized what people were doing in 3.5 or something.

>>16074334
Lemme see if I can find the notes.

14sp for a meal in the city (common meal)
1cp for a meal at the farm

>>16074608
>Wall of Iron isn't as much iron as it is random metals with a sheathing of iron
Where is it said ? Pathfinder only mentions that it is unsuitable for any use and can't be sold.

Even a mostly-zinc alloy of random metals seems relatively useful, and the sheathing could be separated.

It would be awesome if someone could make a program simulating the economy of some DnD setting.

>>16074704
It isn't said. Anywhere.

Demand is simply a function of quantity sold at a given price. How flexible that function is is based it's elasticity. Inelastic items, like gas, can have their prices go up without affecting consumption too much. Elastic goods, like luxury items, will see a drop off in quantity sold for small increases in price (barring a case of conspicuous consumption).

>>16074730
But they do say than other then killing stuff with it you can't do jack shit.
"Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."

>>16074789
But that's unbelievable. If they really wanted that, they should have made it a transmutation spell with a fixed duration.

>>16074823
The fixed duration would be enough. Conjuration (creation) is perfect, why change it to transmutation? Transmutation of what?

Anyway let's get back to how screw up the economy is and how (if possible) fix it).

>>16074864
Of the ground.

Is there creation spells with a fixed duration ?

>>16074979
Wall of Thorn (that is in he same page than the Iron one) has a duration of 10 min./level (D), I'm sure there are more.

>>16074864
>>16074864
Well, in order to fix anything, there needs to be a real economy in the first place. Generally speaking, there is no actual trade happening, and thus no economy. All currency is in a table top game is an ability for GMs to offer a generic reward that the player can spend on whatever they deem appropriate.

>>16074823
Which could then be dispelled. The point of the wall of iron is it's non-dispellable. That's why they left it a permanent effect but made it useless when broken.

>>16075044
Only thing that seems off about that is the price of shoes. Then again, shoe making was a labor intense process involving working leather and wood and nails. We talking a nice pair of shoes a well to do person would wear, or the type of shit peasants would put on their feet?

Also, what sort of beneifts did a city guard get? We talking a place to sleep at the garrison and 3 meals a day, or pull your shift and when you're off its your own damn business where you eat and sleep?

>>16075044
>Bible: 1440 grosz

mother of fuck

>>16075115
No printing press. That Bible was hand scribed by some monk in a monastary.

>>16075114
The shoe prices given vary from around 3 to 20-something, so there was a huge variety. Still, the highest proper wage I've found yet was a city's first notary/lawyer, who earned 30 grosz a week. These are of course burghers, nobles didn't really draw wages, they were landed for a reason.

Not sure what benefits are included in the guard gig.

>>16075115
That's because Jayzus is better protection than plate.

>>16075152
>you will never write a manuscript worth three sets of full plate armor by hand

>>16073855

Because he was a filthy communist.

>>16075230
>manuscript
>by hand

protip: "manus" means "hand"; don't into repeating yourself

>>16075228
>>16075230
It was not uncommon for those things to take years to transcribe. A suit of plate takes a few weeks and a bit of iron to make. A bible could take literally lifetimes.

Here's some prices from medieval england, with the date as appropriate. (Lets see if formatting works....)

Prices are in pounds(L) shilling (s) and pence (d)
20 shillings to the pound, 12 pence to the shilling, 240 pence to the pound

Tools:

Item, Price, Date
2 yokes 4s c1350
Foot iron of plough 5d "
3 mason's tools (not named) 9d "
1 spade and shovel 3d 1457
1 axe 5d "
1 augur 3d "
1 vise 13s 4d 1514
Large biciron anvil 60s "
Small biciron anvil 16s "
Anvil (flat block) 20s "
Bellows 30s "
Hammers 8d-2s 8d "
2 chisels 8d "
Compete set of armorer's tools: L13 16s 11d "
Spinning Wheel 10 d 1457

>>16075280
Erm. no.

if its an off-the peg harness, it might take a few weeks, for a team of 20 people to do a basic generic harness.

a bespoke set of armour for a high-ranking noble took up to a year to make.

and they required the production of some of the best quality steel in the world at the time.

>I'm a city guard earning 3 grosz a week
>buy piece of shit shoes for 3 grosz
>they fall to pieces in a few month
>decent boots cost 20 grosz
>they last forever
>but I can't afford them
>Vime's grosz

Whn exactly is this anyway? Most "realistic" fantasy prices mash together prices from all over the mediaeval period, ignoring the fact that at different times and in different places the same thing could cost very different amounts. (You're not doing this.) Want to screw your players over? Raise prices by inventing a famine out of nowhere, or the king going to war, or plague, or...

>>16075321
formatting did'nt work.

have it as images instead.

Here is the cost of food and livestock.

>>16075340
Most of the Polish data is from 1377, the Silesian city of Breslau.

>casting a bombard a few decades later
>7000 grosz
>shooting it once costs over a thousand

The King's yearly income was around 72 000 grosz (averaging over 18 years here).

and here's costs for clothing.

>>16075329
>>16075329
Ok, tack a few MORE weeks on there. Whatever. That's getting in to a quality issue there, and unless we've got a breakdown on prices and quality, it doesn;t particularly matter.

here's some miscellaneous costs

>>16075340
Vimes's face when he realizes cardboard doesn't exist yet

some costs of marriage and funerals...

and how much someone got in wages, for various jobs.

and some costs of armour.

>>16075354
>You will never get a gallon of good ale for 1.5 pence.

>>16075575
>no refrigeration
>no airtight containers
>flat, warm beer
>good

>>16075592
It didn't give you the runs and it was safer than drinking water, you know.

Fantasy World Economics are fucking mindboggling.

You cant do them realistically, because trying to merge "Feudal History Economics" with "Fantasy Magic and Creatures" changes the setting considerably.

Actual magic in communities from shamen and clerics means the standards of living in communities go up and life-spans go up. Lethal wounds become treatable, and magical items with supernatural abilities change the world.Actual functioning alchemy alongside traditional medicine means that herbalism and mineral foraging becomes a valuable profession. Foodstuffs can be stored for longer period of times with a spell like a daily ray of frost or equivalent.

All these conveniences mean people are able to focus less on survival and people can become specialized producers, farmers, mages, educators, warriors, it leads to a vastly different society.


But those are the positive parts.
Then comes the fact that monstrous beings now roam around, capable of terrorizing cities and devastating towns in a night.This leads to tighter knit communities and less broadly distributed populations.This in turn can slow down trade and makes travel a more dangerous prospect, but also makes skilled warriors and combat mage/clerics really valuable. Caravans would be the norm.

Which means land piracy, thievery and raiders become a viable profession.

I wish I knew an economist or economic professor to help me work this out.

>>16075575
That's why I'm gestalting as a Burgomaster/Sergeant at Law. Pence train just doesn't stop. Why, last year I purchased four boys at Gafford's on a whim, and I didn't even have to delay my purchase of six silver spoons that same week!

The bombard was a bitch, though.

>>16075592
Ale is meant to be warm.

>>16075604
I'm reminded of NWN and BG games.
I had so much money, just tons and tons of gold, and I kept wondering- how much money do I have?

I mean, I know it's a lot,but is it really?

I mean that one sword I sold is being resold at thrice the gold I got for it. If that's the case, I can extrapolate the mind blowing amount of gold the merchants in Baldur's Gate have to be rolling in!

I mean, you get Fifteen Thousand Gold Pieces in BG, plus a host of gems for stopping an attack of wolves and removing the Djinn from Trademeet.

If I remember correctly, in DnD, most skilled peasants make a GOLD a month. If not less.

That's an insane amount of money.

>>16075625
It's also meant to be drunk instead of water.

>>16075678
You're a fucking idiot. You are basically pawning your items, not selling anywhere close to their real price. Basically if you went around as a merchant with a decent enough diplomacy/appraisal and was patient you'd get the full price, though the more expensive the item the longer it usually takes to sell. Most DMs keep shops completely meta for simplicity sake.

>>16075604
>>16075604
Economics degree here. Sounds basically correct. You'd really need a mix of sociology, economics, and history to work everything out though. Prices and currency should be pretty simple to figure once you have an idea what you want to set for wages. The hard part is justifying why the army or local militia hasn't hunted the local monsters/monstrous humanoids to extinction, and interpreting all the nuances of magic. Why does anyone grow food if you can conjure it with magic? Why are there roads if mages can build permanent teleportation portals (or temporary ones for a set amount of time)? That sort of thing.

>>16075769
Sigh, you're now being an asshole, and you didnt address my point.

I say it again.
If a Magical Sword I pawned at Ribald Barterman's- got me 8000 gold, it's reasonable to assume he's going to get possibly double.=, if maybe a little less.

But, considering that ONE Sword is eight thousand gold pieces, and that Ribald has many more swords and items for sale, and at any moment, anybody can make large transactions-

It's reasonable to assume that if the value of his stock is around 500, 000 gold pieces, then he likely has around 50,000 gold pieces on hand if not more a day.

Considering:

3 gp One pig
4 gp One square yard of linen
5 gp One pound of salt or silver
10 gp One square yard of silk, or one cow
Hireling, trained 3 sp per day
Hireling, untrained 1 sp per day

This means a -trained scribe- makes 3 gold pieces a month.36 gold pieces a year.

The Wealth disparity is INSANE.
Are you understanding me?

This is fucking mindblowing. Low level 4th level adventurers are fucking ROCKSTAR RICH. And merchants? Holy crap, they are so fucking rich that it's insane.

The disparity of wealth between the rich and the poor in DnD is ....phenomenal.

>>16075901
Maybe the cities' authorities prefer to keep control over where people live, and the Create food and water traps allow them to do so. So they let the monsters live.

Tippyverse fuck yeah.

>>16075903
>3 gp One pig
>4 gp One square yard of linen
>5 gp One pound of salt or silver
>10 gp One square yard of silk, or one cow
Every once in a while it occurs to me how ridiculous rpgs are with their monetary system. Do you know how little gold there is in the entire world? Do you know how much even a small coin of gold would be worth? The concept that it would take multiple gold coins to buy a pig or a pound of salt is mind boggling.

>>16076234
There were a lot fewer people in the past than there is now and the concept of reserve currencies and large banks storing hundreds of tons of gold simply for bookkeeping purposes was not yet invented.

Please start dealing with the fact that yes, in the 1200-1400s it is a demonstrable fact that gold coins were used to purchase and sell livestock and land thanks to british records that date to that time.

>>16075901
And this is why I think that any high-magic setting should ultimately be considered to have a spell-backed currency. Your basic unit is the amount of magic required to create enough food to support a peasant family of four for a year, and everything else spirals out from that.

>>16076234
I'm not sure if this is really something that happens in the relevant proportions, but it seems possible for a planet to have more gold than ours.

>>16076294
>>16076234
Chances are that the coins were thin, were not necessarily pure gold, and were mainly used in and around cities. Head out to a village, and you'll only see gold (or any metallic currency, really) in use when a merchant is in town and people are buying imports. Otherwise, it's barter all the way.

Oh, and anyone who was in a position to actually be buying appreciable quantities of livestock and/or land was probably firmly in the upper tiers of society.

>>16076449
>not necessarily pure gold
No shit. They were gold-plated at best.

>>16076410
>Sustaining Spoon

>Aura faint conjuration; CL 5th
>Slot —; Price 5,400 gp; Weight —

>Description
>If this unremarkable appearing utensil is placed in an empty container, the vessel fills with a thick, pasty gruel. Although the gruel tastes like warm, wet cardboard, it is highly nourishing and contains everything necessary to sustain any herbivorous, omnivorous, or carnivorous creature. The spoon can produce sufficient gruel each day to feed up to four humans.

>Construction
>Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, create food and water; Cost 2,700 gp

But if we follow the rules, Create Food and Water traps can produce 14400 meals per day for a little less than that.

>>16076485
>Create Food and Water traps
What?

>>16076508
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html
Under
>Designing a Trap

>>16076515
This is a cool thing.

>>16076449
It's the middle ages. They're going to still be on weight-based currency.

And yes, the use of "GP" for everything is just obscene.

>>16076509
Magic traps can cast a spell all day everyday. It can be fireball, but it can also be create food and water.

And that's what people should live on in 3.x fantasy.

>>16076540
It makes sense to me, though it is TOTALLY using a loophole.

>>16076485

>>Although the gruel tastes like warm, wet cardboard, it is highly nourishing and contains everything necessary to sustain any herbivorous, omnivorous, or carnivorous creature. The spoon can produce sufficient gruel each day to feed up to four humans.

Someone often plays Savage Worlds.

>>16076547
Well, you could make a wondrous item that does the same for double the price of the trap, IIRC.

It's just that magic item creation rules are quite designed to rely on the DM saying "stop, you am play gods !".

>>16076472
>No shit. They were gold-plated at best.

actually, the general coin of currency throughout medieval europe was the silver penny, not gold.

gold coins did exist, in england, for example, the Noble, worth 80 pence. but they were pretty much the equivalent of 100 dollar/euro/pound notes in terms of value. And I can safely warant that you dont wander around with a few dozen 100 notes in your wallet.

>>16076603
>"stop, you am play gods !"

NO! IS MAGIC! NO EXPLAIN SHIT!

>>16076608
I read somewhere that the middle ages, until the discovery of america, had a huge shortage of gold as most of the old mines dried out. So they stopped making currency in gold.

>>16076540
Well, unless they can afford better.

I'm going to assume that altering the spells involved to produce something other than just nutrient paste or water would involve greater expense in time, components and crafting expertise. So beyond a certain point, it might once again become more efficient to actually grow food instead of creating it with magic.

More likely, though, natural food becomes something only eaten by the rich or by travelers without access to the magitech infrastructure.

Magical items in D&D will cost well in advance of 10,000 gp. Assuming every gold piece weighs at least the same as a penny, which it won't, that's 2.5 grams. 10,000 gold pieces would be 25 kilograms, or 55 pounds. That's the very minimum. Gold is much denser than copper, so a penny size would weigh much more.

>>16076634
the silver penny goes back to roman times, the denarius. (the "d" in pre-decimal "2s and 6d" all the way up to 1971.
gold has never been particularly common, either before the discovery of the new world, or after

>>16076627
>elemental armies knock at your door !
>ME AM PLAY GODS !

>>16076709
>elemental armies knock at your door
>convert into an extremely profitable and horrifyingly amoral salt-mining operation

Fixed that for you. And remember, when a wizard says "ME AM PLAY GODS!" it has a somewhat different connotation from when normal people say it.

>>16076694
>Assuming every gold piece weighs at least the same as a penny, which it won't, that's 2.5 grams

the gold noble weighed around 8 grammes.
so make that total weight for 10,000 of them 80 kilos, of 175lbs....

>>16076733
If I remember the story right, the mining operation was done in conflict with the elementals, with the assistance of night hags...

>>16076743
incidentally, 80kg of gold at todays prices is a value of about 4.7million dollars.

>>16076769
The point is that the army of elementals isn't a problem, it's an enormous amount of raw materials that came to you instead of making you go look for it.

>>16076694
Well, if you're referring to modern-day pennies, which are mostly zinc, which has a density of ~7.1 g/cm^3, comparing an equivalent amount of gold, which has a density of ~19.3 g/cm^3, you'd get closer to 150 pounds.

HOWEVER, I recall reading somewhere, and I may be entirely wrong on this, that their pure gold coins were a size that made 10 gold roughly a pound. I find this to be quite large, but not wholly impossible, given that a coin would be just under 2.5 cubic centimeters in volume, or a cylinder about 2.5 centimeters wide and half a centimeter thick. That's basically the size of a stack of 3 quarters.

>>16076849
Well, maybe, until they get class levels.

>>16076905
they werent.
as already mentioned, the gold noble, as an example, weighed between 9 and 7.5 grammes (averaging about 8), and got lighter over the centuries so, as the volume of gold reduced, it kept its fixed value in relation to the silver penny.

it was about 34mm (1 1/2inch) in diameter, and barely 1mm (1/25th inch) thick.

>>16076975
That'd still weigh about 17 grams, not 8.

>>16077012
no, they weigh about 8 grammes.

http://www.amrcoins.com/coins-for-sale/HG-07071/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_%28English_coin%29

around 8g.

>>16077062
I'm speaking mathematically. For them to weigh 9 grams, they'd have to be an average of just more than half of a millimeter.

>>16077092
from having handled one in museums, I'd have said about 1mm, but its difficult to tell.
however the fact is they're 34mm in diameter, and they weight 8g.
and all gold coins were thin, look at OP's pic for evidence of that.
the noble had a pearled rim, so its possible that the main body is thinner than I remember from the last time I was looking at them.

>>16077138
I'm not arguing with your experience, I'm just saying that because gold has a known density, you can calculate that a cylinder having a diameter of 34mm and a height of 1mm would have a mass of just over 17.5 grams, so therefore there have to be parts of the coin that are thinner, not gold, or hollow.

>>16077219

and this is why an engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist are staying for the night in a hotel, and uortunately a small fire breaks out in each room.

The physicist awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations, does some quick calculations. Grabbing the fire extinguisher, he puts out the fire with a quick burst.

The engineer awakes, sees the fire, makes some observations, and a quick calculation. Grabbing the fire extinguisher and adding a factor of safety of 5, he puts out the fire by hosing down the entire room, crawls into his soggy bed and goes back to sleep.

The mathematician awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations and some quick calculations. Jubliant, he exclaims "A solution exists!", and goes back to sleep...

(or, in other words you're assuming that a stamped coin with deeply shaped details in it, is in fact a uniform flat surface, when it is'nt...)

>>16077304
I'm not assuming it's a uniform flat surface, I'm saying it'd have to be an AVERAGE of half of a millimeter.

Bump.

>>16076743
Let's say I want to buy a ring of Regeneration for 90,000 GP. That's 720 kilograms of gold, or around 1600 pounds. I would need to be carrying the equivalent of ten men in my coin purse to purchase that item.

Dedicated item makers could literally make their houses out of gold.

>>16077862
That's what gems are for.

>>16077862
See
>>16076485
>>16076410
You just need a bag of 1666 sustaining spoons.

>>16077869
>That's what my awesome "AMF +Knife to Shopkeep's throat" coupon is for.

>>16077862
Building on this, a Ring of Elemental command costs 200,000 gold pieces. That's 1.6 tonnes of gold.

To put that in perspective. In the sum total of human history close to 160,000 tones of gold have been obtained. You are carrying with you 0.001% of all the gold on Earth. To buy one ring.

>>16077889
I wouldn't try that if I were you. If I was an item maker in D&D I would always be surrounded by several Gold Golems and Dominated Dragons covered in gold.

>>16077918

And that is why you stop actually paying for shit in gold after a few levels.

Or, better still, that is why they should completely overhaul the magic item progression and pricing system because it's FUCKING RETARDED.

>>16077918
Or I could give him 8 diamonds worth 25,000 gold pieces each.

>>16077967
Or 1 Star Bejeurel worth 200,000gp each.

>>16077987
Yeah, or that.

What the fuck is a Star Bejeurel?

>>16077987
>>16077967
What did you give to the people you bought the jewels from ?

>>16078040
Jewels of lesser value.

>>16078040
Jewels of lesser value and unwanted magic items!

>>16078040

About 230 HP of damage.

A Bugatti Veyron costs 2.4 million dollars or 4.6 tons of 20$ bills. Therefore it's impossible for a Bugatti Veyron to be purchased since there's no human alive who could lift that much money. And just think, if you could somehow move all that money around, the Bugatti Veyron salesmen would live in houses made out of solid 20$ bills.

>implying that the PHB doesn't mention that it's common for merchants to use appraised jewelery or gems or even merchant guild notes for higher value trades.

>>16078057
>>16078053

>>16076410

Hell yeah. I like that idea, and I like the idea of magic as a RESOURCE

>>16078060
Why the fuck would you buy a car with $20's?

>>16078027
A rarer and more valuable version of regular Bejeurals.

/tg/ - Numismatics and Economics

Just throwing this out there as well - the guinea was a gold coin used in England right up until the 19th century IIRC.

Also, while interesting to think about, most of my players would quit my campaigns if I spent this much time on the economies and trade issues of my made-up places. Still, continue gentlemen. I feel like I should have a snifter of brandy and a smoking jacket and be sitting in a leather chair with brass rivets in a parlor somewhere, but continue.

>>16078172

Why buy it all when you can download it?

>>16078172
That's the point, that probably almost all high tier magic transactions use souls, diamonds, soul diamonds, or diamond souls for currency.

yeah, diamonds seem a good currency for D&D

>>16078268
In the singular? Beljuril

>>16078249 /tg/ - Numismatics and Economics

>>16078425
Demand for diamonds come from raise dead style spells.
Rogue Stones would go for filling the demand in creating permanent portals.
Think rubies are used in creating ranged magic items.

Side note, did you know that helium is really cheap right now because the US is selling its entire strategic stockpile and flooding the market? And by 2015 the stockpile will be empty, eliminating 80% of the world's supply of helium. And that helium is an irreplaceable component for making MRIs because of it's low boiling point?

a diamond worth 25,000 gold peices, by extrapolating from the approximate weight of a medieval gold coin listed above, means the diamond is worth about 200kg of gold.

at current exchange rates, 200 kg of gold is worth about 11.7 million dollars.

that's the sort of price you'd expect to pay for a 20 carat diamond, without a history tied to it. 20+ carat diamonds arent simply rare, but in the category of bein so rare that virtually each one has a name, a history, and in many cases, myths and legends linked to it (ie, the curses surrounding the Koh-i-noor, the Hope, etc)

and yet you're going to just get hold of 8 or so of these without a moment's hesistation?

the geology of fantasy worlds is pretty incredible, if gold is so common, and diamonds the size of chicken eggs can be found by the dozen....

>>16078772
You know that diamonds aren't really particularly rare in real life, right? I mean, your point about the gigantic 20 carat ones stands, but still.

>>16078772
diamonds aren't rare, they're one of the more common gems you can find in our world. 98% of the diamonds found are ground up for industrial purposes. Read up on DeBeers and the diamond monopoly. Only reason they're considered rare on earth right now is because advertising told you so.

>>16073868
I'm stealing the MathLich for my campaign.

>>16074085
In all likelihood, it would be the Church that would fund those adventurers. There is a reason everyone gave 10% to the Church back then, it was because the Church basically maintained what infrastructure was there, and provided what little essential services it could. The Papal States basically began when the people of Rome dragged the Pope from hiding and conscripted him as mayor.

Or the adventurers are funded by the king, or a local feudal lord that is somehow rich enough to afford to hire mercenaries to clear out goblins, so that his loyal men can all focus on waging internecine warfare with his neighbors.

Unless of course, the village falls into the area controlled by a commune (urban republic/town), in which case the richest burghers are the ones hiring out the adventurers.

>>16075044
What is the name of this book?

In exchange, a link to first section about money in Elizabethan England:
>http://elizabethan.org/compendium/6.html

>>16078860
Not sure, but I think if their executives step on US soil, they can be arrested immediately.

Shit be whack, yo.

>>16075604
protip: land piracy is called banditry.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16073747/

archived on suptg

OP here, I just woke up and found out 90+ posts and the thread archived. Thank you all for your opinions, I'll be sure to use more gems on high level games.

>>16075604
This is super cool.

>>16080381
Remember at higher level play things like souls of the damned, solidified hope or anger, and astral diamonds can come into play. Planar currencies tend to be abstracts.

>>16076472
>>16076449

All pathfinder and 3.5 coins are 1/50 of an avoirdupois pound of their metal, and are presumed to be pure (otherwise there'd just be more useless weight). That's about 9 grams per coin.

>>16078249

We're posting pictures of coins? Alright, here's my 10 silver pieces...

>Well actually, these are 31.1 grams and a silver pieces is 9.07, so it's actually more like 34 silver pieces... just enough to buy a pig!

I figure the King only taxes nobles and cities. Cities pay tax directly to the King for the privilege of not having a noble rule then, and nobles have a set amount of tax they have to pay the King every year based on how much their land is assessed to produce each year.

The nobles gather taxes for themselves however they want, and have to pay the King the set amount he takes every year. All leftovers remain to the noble in question.

>>16078060
There's a reason banks were such a huge leap forward. They meant that people could carry the equivalent of pounds of gold in the form of a few notes. Modern banks are even more advanced, as we don't even need notes to transfer money.

Fantasy worlds don't have banks. Everything seems to run on the gold standard. Unless you've got astral diamonds out the wazoo, you'll still need to be carrying money in a more weighty form.