dont forget the Nephilim.

pic only barely related...

>angels looked pretty damn freaky

Am I cute? Uguu~

>> A cherub appears before you.

Oh okay thats- WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT!

>>18055509
Wouldn't your eyes like, explode if you looked upon them?

Or is my Bible knowledge failing in this.

>>18055513
I think that's the higher level angels, like Seraphim. Cherubim were the messengers, one of the lowest levels.

I!
AM!
ON!
FIIIIIRREEE!

as a christian myself i find a lot of the stuff you mention extremely interesting. the stuff mentioned in there (especially revelation and similar places) was so odd looking it was near impossible to accurately describe, it would only make sense once you saw it yourself. this gives some clue to what kind of hyper-advanced divine technology exists out there that we have yet to fathom.

>>18055513
>>18055525
You also die if you hear God's voice, that's why The Metatron exists.

BEHOLD THE METATRON
HEROLD OF THE ALMIGHTY
AND VOICE OF THE ONE TRUE GOD

HEY BRO I NOTICED THAT YOU GUYS AREN'T DOING SO WELL WITH THE WHOLE "BE GOOD" THING, SO THEY SENT ME DOWN TO TALK TO YOU AND GIVE YOU SOME POINTERS

WAIT BRO WHERE DID YOU GO

>>18055578
Is this your first day on the job? You're supposed to yell BE NOT AFRAID first.

In a thread similiar to this, some guy was telling us about the different angels that are actually named, like how there's a death angel, an angel that can open any gate, an angel of fingering virgin girls, breastmilk angels, and even one that leads stillborn babies to hell.

>>18055479
>>18055509
>>18055564
>>18055578


why do i get a lovecraftian vibe from these angels?

>>18055564

>>18055556
i heard that you die if you see god's face. moses (i think, it could be abraham) was able to see god's back without dying. hearing his voice is possible because, well that's what the bible was comprised of: Dudes who heard God's voice and listening (and later ignoring in some cases, which ended badly). i'm disappointed in churches that don't seriously look into this stuff and only focus on the basic knowledge of the bible.
btw, what's the metatron? i've never heard of it (except for that "el shaddai" game) .

>>18055596 one that leads stillborn babies to hell

Someone drew the short straw.

>>18055604

METATRON IS THE VOICE OF GOD, AND THE HIGHEST-RANKING ANGEL IN ALL OF HEAVEN.

BY THAT I MEAN HE'S ALLOWED TO SIT DOWN.

ANY TIME GOD WANTS TO TELL SOME DIPSHIT MORTAL SOMETHING WITHOUT MAKING HIM EXPLODE, HE POKES METATRON AND GOES "HEY TELL THAT DUMBASS TO GO KILL HIS KID--JUST WATCH, THIS'LL BE FUNNY."

>>18055596
that sounds catholic, not christian... close but not quite.

>>18055604
Have you seen Dogma? Because they didn't really make up most of the religious things in that movie

>>18055637
not yet, i saw the first few minutes before i cut my cable.

>>18055627 sounds catholic, not christian

I always thought it was a "All Catholics are christian but not all Christians are Catholics" kinda of thing?

>>18055604

Metatron is the most powerful of all active angels. He's a being made of FIRE, with countless pairs of wings and eyes. He's the direct messenger of god, mankind's guardian angel, the one who wrestled with Jacob, and appears to mortals as a pillar of heavenly fire that burns the unclean to death, and has command over life and death, but only as god commands.

For some reason, he also has the honor of teaching prematurely dead children in paradise.

>>18055604
The Metatron is the highest of the angels and the one that speaks to mortals on God's behalf due to the whole God's voice being deadly to mortals.

>>18055648
It is.

I just like pretty ladies with wings

>>18055604
He's only mentioned in a few Jewish and Christian texts, none of which have made it to the spotlight like the New Testament or Quran. Also, ever hear of Google? Come on man use proper puncuation, your making us look bad.

Christian here also, I know a lot of what you dudes are talking about. Still Christian on 4chan, I'm probably the most liberal Christian you've met.

What exactly is OP trying to make? A game set where God has a more present role in the world? I'm confused as to what setting you want. Although Angels are really a lot more fucking creepy than people think they are.

>>18055598
There's a reason why they say "don't be afraid" as very first thing. Also only the lowest angels were able to be looked at without being destroyed.

What's interesting are that Angels have no free will, so Luicifer couldn't of fallen without permission. So perhaps god isn't as all loving, he still has highest death count in old and new testements.

>>18055479
It's not a coincidence that this is exactly what you see when you are on a "heroic dose" of hallucinogens.

>>18055648
Catholicism is a sect borne from christianity (like mormonism, but bigger and older), which began with st. peter and really exploded in rome. honestly i think it's been bastardized from the original religion because of the ways it goes against the original 10 commandments (no graven images, no gods before me, etc) they speak through priests and the pope and pray to saints and angels, defeating the whole reason for christ's coming to earth: to make a direct connection between men and God.

this is what i understand, i'm sure many will differ in opinions.

Druiel is a very silly angel.

What is his domain and powers, you ask? He presides over teenage deaths.

>>18055685
I like the old testament Satan, that was there to test men's faith to prove who was truly worthy to be in god's prescience.

But then the new testament needed a villain.

>>18055710
God, that must be a depressing job.

*sigh* "Lemme guess, DUI on graduation night? Nope, nope, it's the pit for you. NEXT!"

>>18055700
But christianity doesn't even enforce the 10 commandments in the first place. The whole point of Christ was 1) that was a nice guy and wanted other people to be nice guys, and 2) he freed Jews from the Jewish law. Half his platform as a social leader was that people DIDN'T need to follow the 10 commandments, among other things. His golden rule was supposed to be the only thing they needed.

>>18055725

The new testament is babby's first religion, so it had to be user friendly.

That's why they had to tone down god's OPness, and cut some of the angelic cheese, like the ability to kill any firstborn, unless the door was painted with a sacrificed animal's or a virgin girl's blood.

>>18055736
The funny thing is, a large majority of Christians believe we need not follow the Old Testament Law. Which we shouldn't, it was made for a far barbaric time. Possibly not even by God, just by the Jewish people. What I'm trying to say, the only thing that says homosexuality is wrong is in the book of Leviticus. In truth, Christians have no reason to be opposed to it,

>>18055729

It's probably a bit better than Vassago, who has the honor of finding lost things, but only after the owner realizes they're important. He can also tell you the darkest, deepest secrets of any woman, and will randomly give you your time and cause of death if he feels like it.

>>18055769

WHAT? FUCK YOU, THAT'S AN *AWESOME JOB.*

>>18055700
Christianity are in a way just sects of Judaism, which worship Jesus their Lord. Which conflicts with pretty much most of old testament stuff.

Islam while youngest religion yet has more ties with Judaism than what many care to admit.

>>18055769
"Hello this the Landley Telemarketer service."

"No just leave me alone I don't have time for this."

"Sir I'd like to tell you about our wonderful-"

"You will die alone on December 15 2014 by a gunshot wound, you were being robbed at gunpoint. You die with no children or wife and your instantly forgotten at your work place. Now leave me alone, third time you've called."

"..."

>>18055685
i disagree, andgels had free will, but their knowledge of good and evil was perfect. thus if they fell, they damn well knew what was happening when they did. lucifer (as he was called at the time) felt the urge to rise above God (jewel encrusted skin will do that to ya). as advanced a being as he was he could have fought the urge, but he didn't and that's how the fall began (1/3 of the angels taken, war in heaven, etc) yes, God has rule over everything, but he also has a plan. without the taint of satan's wrath there would be no good or evil, because there would be no contrast.

damn that was long.

>>18055765
Nothing except the ideas of chastity and purity, and how homosexuality is basically a form of fetish that attempts to corrupt and confuse the definition of romantic love.

>>18055785

I like the boob angels. Ardousius and Ardouisur are invoked to make breastmilk flow, and to grant easier births. You do this by playing with your boobs 'til you cum. If they're not pleased, you won't have any milk to give.

>>18055807
>>18055811

SEEING THESE POSTS RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER.

HOLY SHIT I LAUGHED HARD.

>>18055769
*Pst* "Hey, hey buddy. Don't make any plans after August 14th, 2027."

>>18055800
>>Islam while youngest religion yet has more ties with Judaism than what many care to admit.
You do realize the whole Jew/Arab thing is a family squabble that got out of hand like 4,000 years ago, right? They've been murdering each other ever since over whether the crafty, sleazy younger brother or the violent, stupid, but technically correct elder got the birthright of their clan...

And Hebrew is rapidly diving back into the Arabic family of languages, after having been in bed with the Germanic and Slavic families so long no-one was sure if it was even genuine. [/bored historical linguist]

>>18055765
Most Christians pick and choose what to believe, it's more a designer religion.

>>18055807

They have an angel that you invoke by fingering girls. If he's not pleased, the girl will make a sound, which means she's not pure, and must be stoned, or the angel will take your life before it's normally due.

There's a fuckton of weird ones. Pretty much any act you can think of has an angel you can invoke to make it easier. There's even one for attracting wealth through increased possibilities, but don't you dare make him angry, or he'll strip possibilities from you.

Guys, you must remember that everything that is writen in the Divine Comedy is not valid as religion, since it is a work of fiction. The story of Lucifer and all that crap doesnt exist in the Bible, and if you bring the King of Tyre story dont even bother, its about him, not lucifer.

>>18055867
Source?

I've never heard of these Angels. We they written down by some mad man who said God visited him in the night to tell him to finger all the bitches to summon an Angel or some shit?

>>18055700

There's an awful lot wrong in this post.

>Catholicism is a sect borne from christianity (like mormonism, but bigger and older)

Find me the moment when Catholicism broke off from Christianity the way Mormonism did. No wait, stop, I'll save you the trouble. You won't. Christianity evolved naturally over time, and the Roman church got more power in the West while Eastern Christianity evolved along different paths. Eventually -other- sects broke off from the Roman one.

>which began with st. peter and really exploded in rome.

The fact that you say Catholicism "began with st. peter" should have been your first clue that it's not a break-away sect, because Peter was made the first pope by Jesus himself.

>honestly i think it's been bastardized from the original religion because of the ways it goes against the original 10 commandments (no graven images, no gods before me, etc)

Stop. Stop. You know nothing about Catholicism. They don't have any gods before Christ. Christ himself is an image and so icons are... never mind. Just read St. John Chrysostom, I don't have time to explain this to you.

>they speak through priests and the pope

Like the Bible says to.

>and pray to saints and angels,

Like the Bible says to.

>defeating the whole reason for christ's coming to earth: to make a direct connection between men and God.

How does that defeat the purpose? Pre-Christ, no direct connection; post-Christ, bam, direct connection.

I bet you didn't even know that the Bible tells you to confess your sins to your priest? Protestants seem to be really offended by that idea, but it's right there in the epistles.

>>18055887

>implying thats not how the whole bible was written.

old testament angels were bad-ass. you do not piss those fuckers off. I love dropping in slices of angelic dogma whenever my chars encounder the divine.

"oh you don't want to find the staff of red dragons, how do you like being a pillar of salt? see, saying yes to my gods will isn't so hard now is it? don't forget to praise him"

>>18055700
the catholic church wasn't really "born" from christianity, it WAS christianity for a long time. until the schism with the eastern orthodox, there was only one unified christian church, founded on St. Peter, whom was told by Christ, "you shall be the rock my church is built upon" or some such jazz.

>>18055883
quite true, the divine comedy was a work of fiction that is based on religious concepts, it's technically not canon despite most angels and demons mentioned are in the bible. of course the book of enoch is also considered not canon by many, i personally don't know what to think on that issue, it's just too into detail about the fall for it not to have some truth to it.

>>18055912
Catholics came to be when Constantine converted on the battlefield. Then made it official religion.

>>18055936
>until the schism with the eastern orthodox

Which was over some pretty genuinely silly reasons, at the time, but once the two were separate and given time to evolve, they really did become quite different.

>>18055912
>St. John Chrysostom

Fuck, sorry.

I meant St. John Damascene. Too many saints named John.

Ok, off to a job interview.

>>18055912
>they speak through priests and the pope

Actually, this isn't strictly the case.

When confessing, for example, people are not using the priest as an intermediary, but as a prompt, and the confession of sins is performed with the understanding that God is omnipresent and omniscient.

Similarly, praying to angels and saints is not an idea of "Help me with this -instead- of God" but "Help me with this -with- God." It's not so much them aiding you or requesting God's aid, but evoking the aspects of God to your aid.

Nuances, I know.

>>18055912
>this is what i understand, i'm sure many will differ in opinions.

>>18055990
It's better to think as Angels as sentient tools of God. Seeing how he's too busy being all powerful and stuff. He's got shit to do, and can't be bothered by some yokel request.

dear most Christians,

Sunday is the first day of the week, not Monday. Think of the weekends as bookends, they go on both sides.

You got your holy day wrong.

>>18055443
So....Biblepunk?

How would you do this. PCs are all followers of Yahweh/Elohim, following out Divine Missions as Prophets?


What system yould you use? I'd argue you'd need something crazy to handle some of the combats (my first instinct was Riddle of Steel), but I'm not so sure.

>>18055912
are you implying that there was no point for Christ's coming to earth? it was a time of reformation in expectation for the end of days, allowing not just jews to be people of God but anyone willing to follow.

>>18055765
Jesus at some point said the Old Testament is just as relevant as the new, I think.

>>18056032 Biblepunk

I would play this

>>18056021
Yes, God is busy. No, he can never be TOO busy.

While humans exist in time, God exists in eternity, which means the idea of God not having the time to do something is rather odd, since he exists in infinite "time."

>>18056026
sundown friday to sundown saturday was considered the holy day aka sabbath. (from what i know) for some odd reason it changed to sunday.

>>18056026
>rainbow ending in pink

So is Saturday the gayest day of the week, then?

>>18056075
>for some odd reason

Christians call it "the Resurrection."

>>18056081
>facepalm.gif

>>18056081
hurr colors are gay

>>18056091
Heh, sorry, I know it's meant to be purple, I just couldn't resist.

Anyway, color me pleasantly surprised that /tg/ can hold down a fairly civil religious debate. Most people can't even mention religion without running the risk that a whole can of whoopass gets opened.

>>18056111
beat me to it. i know religion and politics are something you aren't supposed to talk about with friends, but being anonymous keeps this civil. i'm actually rather surprised with the level of interest and the lack of idiots so far. lets hope it stays this way

>>18056074
I wonder, assuming he his real, if he's on vacation or just stopped caring about the world.

According to the books Ezekiel, Job, Psalms, and Revelations, several instances are given where angels are falling from heaven for being violent, arrogant, and waging war against god.

Also, the ones who fall from heaven with satan are not initially called demons, but also angels. They also fall to the earth, not hell.

God calls us those angels in that book.

So theres lots of fun stuff to do with fantasy.

If you want to be accurate, as one anon pointed out, jesus sabbath is saturday.

Check out the World Mission Society for history lessons and the truth. Almost anything traditionally accepted was the result of someone being murdered and then other people being lied to. So I really reccomend study.

Deus Volt anyone?

>>18056130
i think it's because this is a board about stories, rpgs and genuinely interesting ideas. all of which were done in a book thousands of years ago. so far theres no religious or atheist a holes ruining this thus preserving the interest.

>>18056143
>Ezekiel, Job, Psalms, and Revelations

And Genesis, and 2 Peter, and Jude.

>>18056141
Did you not get an ipad for christmas or something?

>>18056111
Purple is a regal color. You're still being dumb, though you are a nice guy.

>>18056059
I agree. I've got visions of a sword-and-sandal style world (set in old testament times because fuck yes tongues of fire), and PCs serve Yahweh while NPCs are agents of Nephilem, Cainanite gods, or fallen angels

>>18056141

You don't want to know what god is doing that takes up all his time, but it involves these, and angels chained to mountains.

>>18056170
>calling him stupid and nice at the same time
>/tg/
>broest board ever
/tg/ restores my faith in the internet.

>>18056153
Yea that's it.

But no, I'm talking about current state of affairs in the world. Yet that's more a /pol/ thing.

>>18056186
>what is that? it looks like an illustration from 2e dnd
i'm sure when those things show up and kill everything they'll look way more majestic and frightening than that.

>>18056186
PROOF GOD PLAYS D&D

>>18055700
Protestant filth detected.

>>18056221
this aint dark heresy time.

>>18056185
Would there be classes in this system? Party roles?

We'd need to decide upon a system before trying anything else.

>>18055625
this isn't Biblical, is it? Unless all my translations just call Metatron "God's voice" or "the angle of the Lord" or something

>>18056217

They're god's ultimate tool in testing the faithful. Once judgement day comes, trillions of them will be released to torture infidels and average folk.

>>18056217
>>18056218

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit; he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given authority like the authority of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings someone.

And in those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will flee from them.

In appearance the locusts were like horses equipped for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. They have tails like scorpions, with stings, and in their tails is their power to harm people for five months. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

The first woe has passed. There are still two woes to come.

>Revelation 9

>>18056236
i think it's from jewish lore, much like the original Golem

>>18056243

>grimdark is maximum.

>>18056186

>taking the bible literally

>i speak in parables to reveal mysteries hidden since the creation

What about iin the end of the world there are humans fighting the monsters the Abrahamic god sends to Earth?

>>18055746
>virgin girl's blood
>OT

what are you talking about?

>>18056243
And this is why, even if you don't follow any of the Semitic religions, the Old Testament is still worth a read.

Because it is basically the most badass piece of fantasy literature ever penned.

>>18056246
Ah, so it's non-canonical stuff then. It's pretty neat concept for a fantasy setting though

>>18056273
>Old Testament
>Revelation

>>18056243
as mentioned before, descriptions in biblical times were the best they could describe. i'm sure they look way better than that.

>>18056273
>Revelation
>Old Testament

Wow that's just plain wrong. How do you not know that Revelation is the final book of the Bible?

>>18056267

>In appearance the locusts were like horses equipped for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. They have tails like scorpions, with stings, and in their tails is their power to harm people for five months. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

I don't know. Looks pretty clearcut to me.

I've always found Abrahamic faith a very interesting setting, which is why I'm a sucker for an SCP that uses it, Supernatural (TV Series) and pretty much anything that touches on Abrahamic mysticism. I eat it up.

>>18056283
A lot of Rapturefags actually believe "that's a perfect description of modern helicopters, right there!"

Protip in case you don't know, /tg/, but the overwhelming majority of Christians don't believe in any such thing as a Rapture, and very few of us think Revelation is even about the future at all.

>>18056299
then what would the second coming be like?

>>18055625

It makes more sense if you read daniel 7, it is revealed that all of those beasts represent the "kingdoms that come after" babylon

Commandments that we should follow are always clearly spoken, prophecies and basically everything else are parables.

>>18056309
The Rapture isn't the Second Coming.

It's some sort of weird Coming 1.5 or something.

An apocalyptic game.
Not post-apocalyptic, but currently happening.

No idea what system to use for that.

>>18056279
you guys know the original story of the golem right?
>rabbi from prague makes servant out of clay, technically first robot
>signs jewesh symbol for "God" on it, making it come alive
>golem does tasks for him, but gets stuck in a loop and becomes violent
>"kill it with fire!!"
>rabbi erases part of the symbol, making it the symbol for death
>golem dies, rabbi never fucks with making life again

i think it's a cautionary tale to keep people from making worse stuff. like haemonculi.

>>18056186
I'm reminded of reading "The Bible according to Isaac Asimov" and hearing a secularist discussion of historical trends which influenced the language of the Book of Revelations.

Apparently there was a style of shiny armour-wearing Persian cavalry that was trained to fire arrows backwards on horses as they retreatedhorses. So the argument goes, the notion of scorpions with faces like men and stings in their tails which scourge and torment people were inspired by the hiring of these sorts of mercenary units to harass and contain an unruly populace.

Can a kindly christfag list what's considered canon, what would be non-canon, and what would be sorted into a sort of expanded universe?

>>18055525
Inocoorect, I'm afraid.
Cherubim are one of the highest order of angels.
You're thinking of putti, which are erroneously referred to as cherubs in modren literature.

>>18055995
he's factually right.
we can't really say when the catholics separated from the main church, because... they were the main church for most of the time.
there was that scaramuche with the ortodox, but even then it was pretty clear which side had the most influence worldwide.

>>18056299
yeah, the rapture was first made by a girl who was posessed, like an oracle, but not with anything divine. a preacher just "happened" to be in the same place as this and taught it as "truth" later on. "Rapture" is never mentioned in the bible. it is however mentioned that believers will be saved from the worse of the trials in the end of days. that's reserved for the remainder.

>>18056334

Depends on your sect. Most Protestant Christians stick with the King James version of the Bible and little else. Catholics have various texts and Mormons of course have the Book of Mormon.

It's interesting to note that all desert religions share the 'angels,' sometimes without much of a change in name or abilities.

>>18056363 King James version of the Bible

Wasn't that the one with the most translation errors, which was on purpose in order to please King James?

New testament took all the risk out of Bible: the Role Playing Game. Instead of pillars of salt and swarms of locusts, you just go around playing out your mary sue savior of the world wankery. Get hurt? Who cares, just perform a miracle. Leprosy? Zap curedlol. Get nailed to a fucking cross and left for the buzzards to eat? Fucking 1-UP out of nowhere, with bonus powers to boot.

Even character creation is lame. In my day, you started out in a reed basket floating in a river with nothing but some rotten hay if you were lucky. Now, you get fucking kings delivering gold and goddamn myrrh to your doorstep as soon as you roll your stats.

tl;dr BtRPG 2e is fucking gay

>>18056334
Sure!

Let me just get together my council of several thousand people who have debated for several hundred years, and we'll get back to you on what's considered "canon."

And that's just one sect of Christianity.

>>18056367
fun fact for ya, most all religions/cultures mention things that could be described as "Dragons" too. even in the americas.

>>18056334
Unambiguous canon:

The 66 books of the Bible.

Roman Catholic, add the "deuterocanon":

a few extra chapters of Esther
a few extra chapters of Daniel (including one where Daniel kills a dragon)
Tobit
Judith
Sirach
Baruch
Wisdom of Solomon
1 & 2 Maccabees

Eastern Orthodox, add the deuterocanon, plus:

3 & 4 Maccabees
1st Esdras

Not canon, but worth strongly noting:

2-4 Esdras
Enoch
Jubilees
Shepherd of Hermas

>>18056378

And the Book of Mormon was written by a guy claiming to have read gold plates out of a hat. Most of the holy texts have holes in them because they're based on incomplete oral accounts that existed for hundreds, if not thousands of years before ever being written down.

>>18056363
In my experience the KJV is being mostly replaced by whatever "Revised", "New English", "Standard" types.

>>18056334

>canon

Evolution and dinosuars. Cain comments that the other people who already existed on the earth would kill him. Six day creation is a parable.

Fire and brimstone. OT.

People are fallen angels or posessed by fallen angels.

Also there is the council of the firstborn.

>not canon

Only 10 commandments being on the slab of stone. Theres actually a lot moses and god wrote down

>extended universe

Basically any of the prophecies are very difficult to understand unless god reveals it and passes it on.

>>18056387
Saint George even killed a dragon.

Should we make a /tg/ christian canon, that only includes the badass parts for roleplaying/inspirational purposes?

>>18056418
What about the funny parts, like in Tobit where he looks up to curse God and then a bird shits in his eyes?

Don't just use Christian mythology.

The big three Abrahamic faiths all have some awesome RPG material in them.

>>18056427

Highlights. I'm assuming all the wrestling angels aren't from the bible directly, but from these instead.

>>18056405
>evolution
nah, look up stuff about "first age", just a theory with no canon yet. plus cain could have been talking about fallen angels.
>dinosaurs
YES. big yes. behemoth, leviathan, dragons, all kinds of dinosaurs are mentioned.

>>18056427
Yeah, all three of them do. Except for Islam.

And the better parts of Judaism are already rolled up into Christianity.

Basically, Judaism is the 2e, Christianity is 3e, and Islam is 4e.

>>18056418
look at it this way, if God does exist (i believe he does) i don't think you want to mess with his history notes. just sayin'

>>18056424

Easily qualifies as badass.

>>18056454
nobody ever said god didn't have a sense of humor lol

>>18056451

If god cannot accept that I want to have fun with his works, revering them in my own way, while spreading the underlying message to my fellow man, then he is not god, and I do not need to fear him.

>>18056470
spreading the underlying message seems fine, but disrespecting him in any way is in no way a good idea, thats the point i'm trying to bring up

>>18056449
>>Yeah, all three of them do. Except for Islam.

Jinn, which are treated as one three intelligent races alongside humans and angels with their own society, customs, etc. the Buraq, Ape-men, and all manner of demons are also found in Islam. Even more if you go with various regional superstitions and folklore that exist in primarily Islamic cultures.

>>18056493

How would it be disrespectful to use what is given?

We need to make a list of recommended works we can put up on 1d4chan.

>>18056499
>testament of solomon
>enslavement of demons to build the temple of jerusalem
>howcoolisthat?.jpg

>they worship the nailed god

>>18056499
Sounds like a lot of ORIGINAL CHARACTER, DO NOT STEAL.

>>18056511
then do so, i've seen plenty of books that reccomend the bible as inspiring reading. Exalted included.

>>18056528

All desert religions are like that, but instead of Sonic recolors, you have angel recolors.

>>18056525
>They worship the guy who had is own son crucified in order to destroy the bindings of the original sin

Which is a lot more badass compared to a guy who dies from a snake bite.

>>18056470
This movie had one of the best lines in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pD7RI_p1ns&feature=related

>>18056525

> Laughing at people for worshiping a god who was crucified
> Worshiping ODIN
> laughingwicingas.jpg

>>18056264
Full picture?

>>18056528

No, being a one of a kind servant of an all powerful god is ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL.

Being one of several races, but being one of millions that doesn't have any particular important powers or rank is something else.

>>18056299
It actually is a good description of an attack helicopter though. I mean for someone 2000 year ago its pretty spot on.

>>18056437

The way he mentions other towns having existed also, and the very first verse of genesis leads me to believe otherwise.

But it is also important to note. The bible is not an encyclopedia. It is a guide to prosperity and salvation. So Im positive a lot of things happened which just werent recorded due to lack of importance.

>>18056591
quite true good sir

>>18056437

The descriptions for the behemoth, leviathan, and dragons are more in line with descriptions of large African animals, whales, and crocodiles (and other fantasy animals) than any dinosaurs.

>>18056591
Lack of importance or a lack of knowledge. The writers weren't everywhere at once and for the old testament its a recording of THEIR people not some pasty fucks across the pond fuck those guys.

The idea of the Rapture was created around the 17th century. Since the Second Coming has a lot of pain, death and overall unpleasantness, they figured that God would spare them the misery by bringing them up to Heaven while the wicked are punished.

>>18056624
[citation needed]

>>18056624
>they figured that God would spare them the misery

They figured wrong.

>>18056525
How's that snake bite going, Thor?

>>18056607
>>18056620

I'm impressed /tg/, I see a lot of good learning and open mindedness.

You all should feel proud of this thread.

I love you /tg/

I think it's also interesting to note that in general, the order of which things happened in genesis is more or less correct with science. (if you equate Let Their Be Light to the Big Bang).

I also find it interesting Cain's wife seemingly came out of no where, which could leave the door open for evolution.

>>18055443

If you want to get non-canonical, there's a lot of crazy stuff that happens with angels and demons in Judeo-Christian mythology.

Look at the story of Enoch. Dude has apocalyptic visions and then God eventually goes "Hey you're pretty cool, want to be an angel?" and he becomes Metatron. Interestingly enough, even though it's not considered canon in the Jewish or Christian traditions, the books of Enoch are where we get a lot of our interpretations of the hierarchy of heaven and angels, and a lot of imagery that comes with the end of the world.

>>18056757

Kind of? It specifically mentions that the birds and fish were made on the same day, which definitely does NOT match up to the accepted evolutionary record.

>>18056786
Well I also think its good to note we're talking a being like God, who's to say seven days for him isn't a million years for us.

Though at the end of the day, I'm a classical deist IE I don't believe in the bible or organized religion.

>>18056814

The problem with fish and birds appearing on the "same day" has nothing to do with the actual ammout of time it took.

It's that it jumped straight from stuff in the water to stuff in the air. According to the bible, animals on the land came AFTER animals in the sky.

>>18056786
not if you count days as logarithmic functions that represent eons of time. which would be in line with the OT stance on numbers and words. and there's also that God created the universe, and not only the earth, so we don't know what a universe day is.

>>18056848

Or you know we could just accept the story as allegorical poetry meant to convey the supremacy and transcendence of God over all things in the universe and not worry about defining how He specifically interprets the flow of time.

One thing I hate is why angels need wings?
God can simply make them able to fly by magic or some shit. Why make angels at all? God doesnt need anything to be intermediaries.

>>18056881
He kinda does, what with the whole humans exploding thing.

>>18056814
THATS what i've been saying for years! if he's always been then our perception of days doesn't count towards his own perception of days. still, he's GOD. he can make a whole world with care in that many days easily.

(also revelation says "Satan will be let loose for yet a season" after the millenium of peace, supporting that whole first age theory a bit, along with solomon's recounting of "those that were before")

>>18056893
He dont, he can do anything, why need intermediaries if he can talk to everyone at the same time? He cant be busy.

>>18055596

Ah, I know what that is. During the time when multiple culture were converting over, they often likened their old gods to angels. There are even documented cases of the church having to publicly deal with problems of angel-worship.

Also, I'm calling bullshit on the stillborn to hell. Catholic teachings specifically state that before a child reaches the age of reason he/she is utterly pure.

>>18056875
i actually think that its just some guy guessing stuff. there isn't really a reason that it has to be an allegory either.

I'm too lazy to read the thread, but I just wanted to say that some friends and I are going to do In Nomine in a while.

>>18056757
the "big bang" just seems like something that scientists came up with to attempt to explain the universe's creation. it makes little sense that shit would spontaneously happen without some catalyst. everything goes from order to chaos according to them, so why would shit come out of nowhere and make planets and life?

the idea of a creator is much more plausible to anyone if you bring that into the mix.

>>18056988
Who created the creator?

>>18057018

No one. God has no beginning or end and always has Been.

...at least according to Catholicism. Don't know if any other branches of Christianity have specific doctrines related to that.

>>18057018
the creator's always been. it's a hard concept for anyone to wrap their heads around, wondering what he's been doing before this. but thats how it works.

>>18057029
Why cant the Universe be the same way?

>>18057018
alpha and omega, man. alpha and omega.

>>18056881

Not all angels have wings. Most are a huge mass of eyes grafted to the body of a man or a woman, with one defining characterstic. Metatron has 56 pairs of wings, there's one angel WITH A BEARD OF FIRE, and so on.

>>18056988

There's a whole lot of theoretical physics trying to figure out what caused the Big Bang, and there are quite a few competing theories right now.

As for the Big Bang itself, we actually have some empirical evidence that supports it. The background microwave radiation of the universe strongly suggests some kind of rapid expansion at the beginning of time, an explosion whose remnants are still plainly noticeable today.

>>18057046
is there a source for all these descriptions? like a wiki page?

>>18057046
Still, why make them at all? If god cannot be busy or tired?

>>18057050
my problem is getting something from nothing, it's impossible. there MUST be a catalyst.

>>18057039

Because the universe itself is finite, and we actually have scientific evidence that supports the fact that it has a definite beginning.

Again, going back to Catholicism, we're perfectly fine with scientific theories explaining how our universe developed and changed from the Big Bang onwards. It's when you try to explain what happened BEFORE physical existence became a thing that you start running into heresy.

It's like asking "what's north of the north pole?" Beyond that point, any definitions we use that are confined by our limited, temporal view of creation have no meaning.

>>18057034
where he's been, probably creating all those parallel universes.

We're probably like, universe v4.5 humanity v1.2

>>18057066
he could get lonely, couldn't he? it's certainly within reason.

>>18057074

Creatio ex Nihilo.

The answer is "because God said so".

The Big Bang theory was originally conceived by a Catholic Belgian clergyman and the Catholic Church never really had any issues with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Catholic Church hasn't done no questionable things in its very long history, but most of the science-related issues people seem to attribute to Christians (Creationism, age of Earth, etc.) are not supported by the Catholic Church at all, but instead by some (American) Protestant denomination. Catholics just go "Genesis should not be taken literally, dude.".

>>18057057

I googled for Metatron.

>>18057078
Please stop!
Go any further and you'll discover the Ter...

We are here to protect you!

>>18057050

One of the verses in Job mentions 'Stretching out the Heavens'....

>>18057066
Because it's fun.

>>18057066

Because god is planning for judgement day, so needs servants to carry out his will. He can't interact directly with humans, either, because his presence makes them explode, so he has these messengers, and divine warriors who'll do his dirty work.

Jew here, clarifying the point of the story of creation: it's to differentiate the religion from the polytheistic religions that went into great detail as to their gods' origins and relationships. In Genesis, all you get is "YHVH made a bunch of shit, the end" which was CRAZY nuts if you stop and compare it to, say, the relationships and origin stories between the gods of ancient Sumer, or (later on) the Greek pantheon. Nowadays we take for granted how nuts it is that the universe is described as being made in six days (obviously it wasn't), but when all this stuff was committed to parchment, the lack of an origin story for Judaism's deity was about as crazy to other religions as a temple without a single idol.

Image is mosaic of the golem of Prague.
In b4 oven jokes.

This thread was nice and everyone in it should feel nice.

>>18057112
He doesnt need, he can do anything without humans exploding, this is stupid.

all i know is that theres way more out there than we can possibly understand.
i'm glad that 90~% of these posts are interesting and well educated on the subject despite the poster's religion (or lack thereof). this is why i enjoy coming to this board.

>>18057057

A lot of the descriptions of angels like that come from non-canonical sources like Enoch. However, the first chapter of Ezekiel has a crazy visual description where we get the "flaming wheels within wheels with eyes all over them".

Also, Revelation has some angel descriptions too, if I'm remembering correctly.

>>18057074
>getting something from nothing

That's not how the Big Bang works. You should read A Brief History of Time. It's really good.

>>18057117

Yeah, I love it when religious discussions threads actually go semi-civilly like this.

>>18057122
Inb4 >Aliens

>>18057078
>>Because the universe itself is finite, and we actually have scientific evidence that supports the fact that it has a definite beginning.


Lots of stuff has a definite beginning. Not everything that has a definite beginning has a creator.


There was a time when there was no Earth, a time when there were no humans.

Doesn't mean that nothing existed before then, or that the things in question didn't arise from pre-existing phenomena.

What existed before the universe as we know it came to be? We don't know.

>>18057118

No, he can't. His voice deafens men, and his gaze sets mortals ablaze.

This is why he appears as other things. You know, because god is everything, yet also nothing. So he's part of his angels, too, and the forests, the trees, your penis...

>>18057118
this man has a point... plus theres Jesus, God in the flesh as a mortal. nobody blew up around him (to my knowledge)

>>18055598
the book of Ezekiel,the ORIGINAL lovecraft

>>18057145
Thanks for suporting me bro.
Also, he could have implanted in the minds of every human that he exists and he is the supreme dictator. Thus, all those past religion wars would have been avoided.

Archive this now.

>>18057145
.
Because he was still fully human.

There was the Transfiguration which revealed himself in his divine appearance before a few of the apostles, and they could hardly look at him then.

>>18057145

Official retcon, depowering of god in newer source material, or more family friendly entertainment?

Let's not talk about Passion of the Christ.

>>18056881
because God made the universe with a system of mechanics known to humans as 'physics'. In this universe that physics control, things have to make sense. Thus for an angel to fly, it uses wings.

>>18057156

A lot of Ezekiel is just calling out various nations and factions within Israel for being dicks and not following God's laws.

But everyone remembers the angels and weird apocalyptic shit, even though Apocalyptic literature didn't really officially start until Daniel. Ezekiel is still an interesting case of a transition between prophetic literature and apocalyptic literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

Don't mind me. Just leaving some stuff THE MAN doesn't want you to know.

I recommend reading some good books about Quabalism. My favourite is Karlsson's "Quabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic", it has a rather long and well-researched, mostly unbiased and referenced introduction before the grimdark demonology part. You can find enough books to read in the footnotes if you're interested.
Very short version (at least as I read it), the material plane, Malkuth, is the byproduct of the Fall of Da'ath, so the actual physical creation of the world made it a trash bin AND destroyed the direct connection between the supernal triad (Kether, Binah, Chokmah) and the lower planes, leaving a fucking black hole there. So Malkuth was never part of the plan, and the Fall made "God" unable to fully and directly interfere with the rest of the world.

>>18056881

The Angels = Winged Humanoids imagery is actually borrowed from Babylonian art, and got picked up by Israelites after their exile. There's a lot of Babylonian and Persian influences in other trappings of their religion, although their focus on covenental theology and monotheism makes them unique among middle eastern cultures of the same era in time.

>>18057118
At the end of this line, the only answer you're going to get is "Because God wishes it to be so."

>>18057179

Gnosticism is actually coming back to the forefront of religious studies now, thanks to some relatively recent discoveries of actual Gnostic texts, before this point, most of what we knew about them came from what their opponents wrote about them, which obviously means that it's not a very trustworthy source.

so, OP, was this good enough lore for ya? someone please archive quickly.

> >18056059
>biblical setting
There is this thing called Testament d20 by Green Ronin(http://paizo.com/store/sale/greenRoninApocalypseSale2/v5748btpy7eu3&source=top)
.. and.. holy fuck, it is only two bucks! BRB, buying that

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html

Archived. Vote it up.

>>18055804
The angels do not have free will because it is implied that that is a gift to humanity. I've always found it rather odd that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels from Heaven could "make war" without being beaten to a pulp. If God is all powerful, all knowing, etc. How could he lose even if EVERY angel turned on him? So he must have let Lucifer(Venus, false light, morning star, etc) fall and taint the world because he certainly had the power to stop him and the knowledge of what was going to happen. So it is also his fault that Eve was ever tempted, and that humanity fell and that we live in a world at least once "wasted and desolated." The old testament is an amalgamation if desert mythology and it has clear holes in the story. But, you take what you can and learn what you will and maybe God will actually let you in on what the truth is, because its clearly not in the Bible.

I would love to use christian mythos for a setting.
But I am catholic, and playing in a group with a few loud atheists and pagans, so if I do, they will cry about how I'm shoving it down their throats.
Hell, they complained when I referred to knights as real upstanding chipper dudes in one of my nations.
Especially atheist guy.
But he's a douchebag and I don't like him anyhow. Only reason he's in is because he's dating one of my other players, who is actually a friend.

I might just use the mythos one day and tell misters atheist and pagan to get fucked and enjoy it because it really IS one of, if not the most interesting mythos created.

Then I'll get retorts of "If I wanted to play real life history, I'd read a history book"
To which I'll reply with "We're not playing real life history, we're playing fantasy with a little bit more familiarity than usual. We're still going to have my trademark setting strengths of strangeness, heroism, backstabbery and dabs of grimdark along with noblebright".

To which loud atheist will bitch and whine and moan and try to prove gods don't exist.
And he'll get killed IC for it.
Then he'll throw a fit and quit the game.
And my friend will have to admit he's a douche.
Which will drive a wedge in the relationship.

And then I'm gonna have to deal with him breaking up with the guy, as he's dated another asshole, and I'm gonna have to take him out to ice cream and make it all better by being there for him.

Sheesh, it's so much work just to play something awesome. Liberals ruin everything.

>>18057188
It also doesn't help that the provision against making a graven image was also generally extended to images of humans in religious works. (Judaism is chock-full of extraneous protections against commandment breaking like that. Even today, altars and bimas in synagogues may have depictions of animals, but almost never people.) So their own artistic interpretation of the Torah/Old Testament never really materialized; what little DOES exist borrows from the religious depictions of other cultures, and the visuals we associate with Abrahamic religions today were largely made by Christians at the same time that they were reviving the Greek artistic motifs. Hence all the beautiful two-winged angels.

>>18057243

Hey now, don't blame rampant idiocy on one single group. Being boneheadedly stupid is unfortunately a common trait shared by people of all different kinds of religious and cultural background.

I've played with some really dumb Christians myself. (and I'm Catholic too)

>>18057239
I always figured, that without the existance of evil, without the abilty to make the wrong choice, free will would be meaningless, perhaps the banishment from eden was less a punishment and more like telling a newly grown bird to leave the nest.

hysicie 3:16
Sorry captcha that one isn't in the book

>>18057145
He was only deified centuries later, he never claimed he was son of god just a messenger. Only later when they started to write this down they added he was son of god and did all these crazy stuff.

He was mortal, who was sold out by his own people to the Romans who just wanted L&O. He died, and stayed dead. Only later when the oral edition was written he came back to life. I see it more like tall tales, each time it's told it gets bigger and better. So a 6" fish turns into a 100' whale, over generations.

>>18057298
Stop reading Dan Brown and start reading actual literature on the subject. Jesus was treated as a deity since the very beginning.

>>18057267
Aye, there sure are alot of stupid people. But if anyone identifies themselves with a political alignment - left, right, up or down, they deserve to be facepalmed at.
Then again, lately I seem to be ignoring the stupidity from the conservative camp, because at least those people are so far gone they're beyond salvation.

/tg/ I salute you

For my modern supernatural setting, I co-opted an old myth from the Celts, when they first converted to Christianity. When Lucifer rebelled and was cast from heaven, the pearly gates got closed, and whoever was outside got locked out. However, there were a number of angels hanging on Earth when this happened, and they ended up getting "locked out" of Heaven, because God's a bit of a dick.

They angels who were locked out of heaven eventually become the first Sidhe.

>>18057325

Mark is thought to be the earliest of the Gospels, and it's dated to around 70 AD. That's a lot of time for oral tradition to get circulated around, and it's possible some exaggeration or other changes occurred in the meantime.

Of course, claiming that the original events were not supernatural or divine at all also requires some evidence to be provided.

>>18057325
He was considered "king of Jews" something Harold and the ruling Jews disliked. He wasn't son of god, all Jews were sons and daughters of God. After all they were "the chosen people". He was a charismatic figure that taught his own philosophy, which rubbed the king, the clergy, and nobles the wrong way. For it was message by the poor for the poor.

>>18057375
>They angels who were locked out of heaven eventually become the first Sidhe.

Have you read any of the Hellboy comics? Because this sounds a lot like that cosmology that Mignola's set up in those stories.

>>18057396
mignola's a genius. that is all.

>>18057391

Herod. King Herod was who you're looking for.

If you want the historical, secular interpretation, Jesus was disliked by the scribes and Pharisees and other high-ranking figures in Judaism because they felt he threatened their authority, so they went to the Romans to have him executed. The Romans did so because they feared a Jewish revolt (which happened anyways around 70 AD).

>>18057384
that is not how the burden of proof works

>>18057384
Which is kinda hard to do now considering the time, te elements, and political tensions in middle east makes anything an ordeal.

>>18057405

Oh I know, I wasn't complaining. I really love how he managed to weave together so many different mythologies into a unified setting that actually makes some sense.

>>18057396

Mignola knows his lore, then. I've only read a few of the Hellboy comics, but that particular myth's over 1000 years old. The Celts up in Scotland, when they first converted, brought a LOT of their myths into their local beliefs into the Catholic faith.

It's actually really interesting to see what myths get brought into Christianity when local regions convert. In Wales, for examples, the Erlking, master of the hunt, is thought to be King Arthur kicking the ass of demons.

>>18057239
If you look closely enough, Abrahamic religion never says that the world-known-to-us is the only thing. There are references in Hebrew lore to several Creations before this one, and there are very clear references to an "outside", Sitra Ahra, (which several period Hebrew authors identified with the Christian Europe, but whatever). And even in an ideal situation, "God" only has total control over it's own creation, and there are several cases where it has to "use" Samael to do the dirty jobs (think the Egyptian massacre). Oh, speaking of which, check most religions which are led by a dominantly masculin or outright male, sky or air oriented deity, and you'll find that nearly always, they have to "use" a more-or-less demonic force when their goals ask for breaking their own rules.

>>18057418
i never for a second thought you were, i was just announcing it to the net. mignola's take on history and myth inspired me a lot, and i wish he would get more mainstream recognition for it. (i haven't been able to see the first hellboy movie, but the second one was dissappointing.)

>>There were Devils, Devils, and various strange Devils in christian mythology.
FTFY
Praise be christ for delivering us from all the evils that are omnipresent. Now pardon me while I go burn this witch.

See where I'm going with this op?
In general only Mormons will want to play in a setting with christfaggotry. Even Christians get tired of it, especially since modern Christians are all heretics by medieval/renaissance standards

>>18057434

The first one's actually pretty good. There's a lot of differences between it and the comics, but it's enjoyable on its own merits. Ron Perlman is fantastic.

And this all goes for everyone else in the thread. If you want a good example on how to use Christian mythology in a fantasy setting, READ THE HELLBOY COMICS. Actually, just read them anyways, they're amazing.

>>18057325
Given that the Jewish concept of the messiah and the Christian concept of the messiah are so different as to be like night and day, this is farcical. The Jewish messiah is a political liberator who restores the line of David to Jerusalem, that's it. There's nothing divine about the messiah (and in fact treating him as divine would go against Judiasm entirely, in much the same way that no one was supposed to worship Moses), save for the fact that god appoints him for the role.

Once Jesus of Nazareth was executed, most of his followers gave up on him, since you can't restore the line of David if you're dead. (Jesus wasn't the only would-be messiah that the Romans put down to prevent an uprising.) Those Jewish followers that remained eventually began Christianity proper with the help of Paul the Baptist, born Saul.

>>18057449
The quality and quantity of posts in this thread render your argument invalid. Butthurt much?

>>18057449

>>18057449
>especially since modern Christians are all heretics by medieval/renaissance standards

The church itself is still made up of human beings who are prone to error. However, God won't let the church remain in error forever. Changes do happen to address theological or social issues, they just take FOREVER in Catholicism to be completed. Same spirit that drives the church, be manifested in new ways as the shape of global interactions and society itself changes over time.

Of course, Protestant denominations just address these issues by splintering in new factions every five years or so.

>>18057427

Mister Sam is such a creepy character.

The only reason Pilate executed Jesus was because he didn't want to get sacked out of his political position which is what was going to happen if the Jews rebelled again. So he went with the painless route and had the guy killed. Rome didn't give a fuck about the religion or climate in Israel they just wanted their fucking taxes. Unfortunately for him all it did was force him to find and arrest the murder and rapist that the retard Jews let go in place of Jesus and got him sacked when the Jews revolted anyway.

The Passion had Pilate's reaction right. The 'You've got be fucking kidding me' face he put on when they said to release Barbaros. If I were him I'd have just wept to myself in private that Caesar thinks so little of you he stuck you in Israel.

>>18057506
>If I were him I'd have just wept to myself in private that Caesar thinks so little of you he stuck you in Israel.

Yeah, I always felt sorry for Pilate in the story of the Passion. But he still put his personal job security over the life of a man that even he knew had done nothing wrong. He's not a villain by any means though, just an ordinary guy trying to do his best.

For those of you who like a little sybmolism in your games, how about the medieval Christian idea of the Great Chain of Being? The idea was that all of Creation was arranged in a several "chains", with each link in the chain representing something in creation, of a specific group. Each link was synonymous to things of other chains at the same level. For example, the top of the chain for Man were Kings, for animals Lions, and trees Oaks. So, when you saw an oak tree, you were supposed to associate it with royalty and lions.

Everything had a place in the chain. They were supposed to protect those below them, and support those above them.

The most meta of those chains were the orders of creation. Rocks were at the bottom, with plants above them, and then the animals, and then man, and lastly, the Angels. Each part of creation had its role and ability. The earth's ability was that it was a base, its durability. Plants grew, and provided for all above them in animals. Animals reproduced(that was their thing, really), and provided food for Man. Man's gift was knowledge, and that Man could reason and innovate.

The Angel's gift was really the interesting one. They could 'intuit' whatever was good or evil, immediately. They didn't need to know what would glorify God, they just intuited it.

There was a really interesting book I read a while back, that goes into how much symbolism there really was in the Medieval period with the Chain.

>>18057552
>>18057506
And the sad thing was that after the next rebellion happened anyway he was called back to Rome to be formally given the sack and executed.

So he committed suicide before they could reach a decision on the subject, possibly so his wife could get his pension and he could spite his superiors.

The worst thing about it? He and Emperor Tiberius were old war buddies from the Germanic Wars.

Tragic shit is tragic.

>>18057498
>>HERP SORRY DERP SORRY
stop apologizing for your abominable disgusting religion on /tg/ God sat on his hands for over 1000 years while his people screwed the pooch and basically in all ways did nothing but act like he did in the old testament. Your god's a prick and the only way around that is to ignore the bible be a pseudo deist like the rest of the polite portion of christian America.

>>18057670

We've gone through this thread without name calling and arguing. Let's not start now.

>>18057670
Bad form, very bad form.

Civility is a virtue.

>>18057243
>>Hell, they complained when I referred to knights as real upstanding chipper dudes in one of my nations.


I love fucking with my players like this, especially when we play Eberron.

My Silver Flame is the biggest bunch of bros you'll ever meet. Everyone tries to be noble bright, and the guys who aren't are more pragmatist than anything.

Meanwhile, the Sovereign Host is all a bunch of "your religion will be assimilated", and there are so many scam preachers who exploit its populist nature and manipulate its already nebulous tenets to their benefit.

>>18057713
My DM made his Silver Flame like that too. I said 'this is bullshit' and my Crusader made his splinter Order as needlessly racist and theist as possible. Think Teutonic Knights turned up to 12.

>>18056392

I say we put the Divine Comedy as canon.

>>18056378
>>18056363
protestants use NIV mainly
far more accurate translation
the only time they use King James is when they want to sound poetic, which it is really good at

>>18057239

The problem you highlight there is Omnipotence/Omniscience V.S. Free Will.

One way to solve it is this. God is Omnipotence/Omniscience, and in his Omnipotence has decided to endow humans with free will. So as a matter of fact humans do have free will, they can choose between good and evil.

However, God is also Omniscience (knows past, present an future). So God knows that my son that will be born in 5 years will end up forsaking the bible. Nonetheless, my son will forsake God out of his own free will, because God has decided that all humans will have free will.

Think of it this way, if an entity (God in our case), has Omniscience, and knows everything about future events, then those events as they are known to that entity will inevitably happen. When God created Adam, he knew that Adam would eat the Apple, as he also knew that my yet-to-be-born son Bob, will forsake him.

So why go through the hassle of creating humanity, when you know how it will end? The will of God is not to be known to us.

The interesting point here, is that Adam and Eve did what God knew they would do, but they did not do what God wanted them to do. This is because they ate the Apple out of their own free will, and not out of God's will.

Someone please tell me I am making sense.

>>18058409
omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive

>>18058620
Why?

>>18058409
You are.
Now consider the Problem of Evil.

>>18058620
No so.

Just because you are smart enough to know what someone will do, does not change the fact it was their choice to do it. Absolute knowledge of a person may take away the surprises, but unless you set out to stop their choices, everything you know about them is still their choice.

>>18058630
if the future is known then you have no choice, merely the illusion that you do

>>18058646
then the being in question is not omniscient

>>18058409

Omniscience as you define it is predestination. As you explain it, there is one, inevitable future that nothing can change. That's not free will.

You can reconcile free will and omniscience, though. If God knows all possible outcomes for all possible futures that result from all possible choices, that gives humans the ability to forge their own path without being chained to inevitability, while also retaining the idea that God knows everything about everything.

>>18058644
Simple... free will. Here is another point.

>>18058409
>So why go through the hassle of creating humanity, when you know how it will end?

This one is actually pretty damn obvious. If you make a being with free will, and he doesn't do what you want him to do, so you unmake and remake until you get the free thinking being that only does what you want... then you might as well have never made the free thinking being.

The "Problem of Evil", or why does god even allow it, is the same as "Why does God allow anything, ever?" To disallow a single thing would lack integrity, invalidating free will entirely. Oh sure, we'd still have it, but what would it matter if God has shown himself fully willing to take it away just because our free will upsets him sometimes? Why grant it in the first place? To an absolute being beyond time, any violation of our free will is the same as never giving it to us at all.

>>18058663
Nonsense.
Knowledge is not the same as causality.
Omniscience allows a Deity to know what choices you will make, but the choices are just as real.
You're thinking of Determinism, where thought is merely a predictable series of electrons. Determinism is separate from an Omniscient God.

>>18058714
Short version...

Why are you evil?

>>18058688
then said god is not omniscient

>>18057484
>Paul the Baptist

Just Paul. He made a big deal about not baptizing people himself.

Anyways. Whether the gospels are reliable or not, whether Jesus claimed in them to be God or if that was added later, you still have Paul explicitly worshiping Jesus as God in his epistles.

So Christianity has been worshiping Jesus as God since at least 50-60 BCE, much earlier than Dan Brown would have you believe. Nicaea, 300 years later, only had two bishops who dissented.

ITT: half-baked theology
I respect how you're mostly keeping it civil though, even if it's mostly logical fallacies.

>>18058727

I guess you could say that he's not omniscient, because he only knows what will result whether or not you pick up a can, not whether you will pick up the can. But if he does know that you'll pick up the can, and you have no option not to pick up the can, you don't have free will.

Ok, no more philosophy/pseudo-theology.

Back to setting.

According to the Judeo-Christian version of myth, all other gods except YHWH/the Trinity are either 1) fictitious and perpetrated by men, either delusional or con-jobs, or 2) demons.

Milton and Dante were both especially good about this, it's why other-wise "good" random mythological figures are in Inferno.

So for a /tg/ setting, you'd get to make up possible antagonists or even antagonistic groups based on gods from other cultures, grimdarked up. So, we should come up with evil versions of our favorite other gods.

>>18058796
A truly Omniscient being would know whether or not you will pick up the can, but this has no effect on your choice either way.

>>18058727
in a way he perhaps may be if you take the divine spark literal

if every single human is part "god" god can have the omniscience of any and all possible outcomes while the knowledge of what choice will be made, separate from the knowledge of the outcomes, is within the spark inside each human

>>18058796
>>18058825
You're discussing philosophy, not religion. Stop.

Knowledge
of an action
has no actual effect on the action!

Knowing what someone is going to do does not change the fact it is their choice to do it! Have the people arguing that "omniscience takes away free will" just never met a human being?

>>18058820
Originally they were taken to be faces of the one true God.
The phrase "Thou shalt have no other god but me." Should really read "before me" meaning you can worship whatever you like, but I'm top god.

>>18058793
tautology is my favorite because it works

>>18058866
I always wondered

why would a god care if you believe in him or not if you follow his values

say an atheist doctor risking his own life to cure civilians in war zones. Why would he not go to heaven, by all accounts he follows the virtues of christianity

>>18058820 evil versions of our favorite other gods.

That's actually going to be pretty easy for most gods.

Any EXTREMELY easy for the entire greek pantheon.

>>18058832
In the medieval college, you were not permitted to study theology until you had first proven a degree of mastery in philosophy.

You cannot attempt to separate philosophy and theology, as the former is what constructs the latter.

>>18058894
I've talked to Priests and Pastors about this. A doctor who lives a good life and gives his life to others to better the condition of all mankind isn't denied access to heaven because he does or doesn't believe. God and Jesus care very little about what God to preach or follow to. He wants his Children to do well and be a good family to each other. That counts for more than lipservice in his book. It's the reason he pushed so hard for people to follow those virtues that's what he cares about. He might not have as much in the Old testament but in the New its all about helping your fellow man and that counts for 90% in his book.

>>18058899
Yeah, but you also get to work out some sort of hierarchy that has Satan at the top. Like, Zeus is some sort of General over the division of demons that conquered Greece, which would put him at maybe equal ranking with Odin?

In which case, how do Zeus and Odin feel about each other? Being demons, are they scheming together to overthrow Lucifer, or is one more loyal to Satan than the other? Did Odin really want control of Greece but Satan gave it to Zeus instead?

>>18058644

I do not think that Evil conflicts much with Free Will and Omnipotence/Omniscience. God does not will for Evil to be, but he wills for humans to be able to choose Evil. He also knows that some humans will choose evil. He knows about the existence of Evil, but he has not created, nor will he ever create Evil, for he is Good.

So God is Omnipotence/Omniscience/Good.

A certain rabbi once said (along the lines of), if God is Omnipotence/Omniscience/Benevolent how could the holocaust have happened?

If God Knew it was happening, and he is Good, then he must have not had not the Power to stop it (we take Omnipotence out). If God had the Power to stop it, and he is Good, then he must have been unaware of it happening. If good Knew it was happening, and he had the Power to stop it, but didn't, then he is not Good.

Basically, we cannot have Omnipotence/Omniscience/Benevolence together. We must drop one, and keep a combination of two.

Note that this line of reasoning makes assumptions about God's decision making. God's will is by definition unfathomable.

God's Omnipresence and Evil is also an issue. If God is everywhere, than he is also in Evil. I'm not sure if that would imply that Evil is in God. Besides, the idea of 'locating' God, may not make sense in the first place.

>>18058620

There are also ways to prove the in-existence of Free Will by invoking the laws of causation, by negating the spirit, and by assuming that all is (atomic) matter.

>>18058938
Same guy, different hat.

>>18058915
While true, this is just a thread on 4chan. Determinism, free will, and related debates certainly inform theology both corporately and on a personal level, but the topic doesn't in itself conclusively prove that God does or does not exist. Some Calvinist branches, for example, would be A-OK with determinism, while Methodists are adamantly agaisnt it.

>>18058935
to bad 99% of all Christians throughout history never got that eh?

You have this unstoppable warrior god with a fetish for designating totally arbitrary rules, but enforcing them with redundant, overwhelming force. He commands an army of lovecraftian horrors and his voice has six wings, seven arms and twelve eyes and is made out of lightning, fire and wheels of bronze. His personal Hitman is gargantuan mass of an eye, a tongue and a mouth for every human being in existence, watching and whispering of their impending doom to them all at once.

You could take out Rovagug and replace him with this guy, and it'd work perfectly. He'd actually be scarier.

1) pick one
>Omnipotence/Omniscience
>benevolence

2) pick two
>Omnipotence/Omniscience
>logic
>free will

>>18058979
That's because it's heresy.

>>18058826

But God is one.

>>18059018
and also omnipresent

>>18058955
omnipresence is a way of understanding omniscience and omnipotence
"how does God X?"
"because he's everywhere at once, now stop fucking cows."

>>18059004
>this is what uneducated people actually believe

>>18058894

The most odious thing Jesus said is "only through me there is salvation". Other than that, he was a cool guy.

>>18058935

Pretty much all the clergy I've ever talked to has said the exact opposite. Anyone can get into heaven if they repent, but if you don't repent, believe, and be baptized then you're going to hell no matter what. Good works in life don't matter at all, only belief in God and adherence to his word.

>>18059004
Humans can't even agree what constitutes benevolence, and you think to apply it to a God?

>>18058894
To maximize the number of Swedes who burn.

>>18059058
seems like something that might be paraphrased badly

Jesus generally seemed like a guy who was against to much laws and stuff like that

>>18058820

the existence or lack of Free Will is central to any setting you may wish or are destined to create.

>>18059058
dude was a power bottom. When you're trying to get laid, you might say some stupid shit that makes you come off like a prick.

Just fuck him like he wants, and he'll mellow out.

>uildiF Calvinistic

...alright, we can discuss predestination and shit if you like, uildif.

>>18059060
again why would god care if he's omnipotent and benevolent

the only reason I could see it being "reasonable" is if god would die without believers and evil would 'win'

>>18059108
>predestination

how the hell did that not end up as highest kind of heresy? I mean it goes against every fucking thing jesus ever said

>>18059110
It's a hard question to answer, because God is also 'no great respecter of religions.' He doesn't actually care, but then he does.

This is considered one of the great theological mysteries.

The Catholics have basically decided that proximity to God is grace, and distance is sin, and that it isn't a matter of what God wants at all, it's what the human wants.

The Orthodox have decided that he doesn't care, but that in fact the afterlife is defined by one's desire for godliness, which is best done through the following of the orthodox teachings.

The Protestants don't know what they think.

>>18059124

Because rich and successful northern merchants wanted to go to heaven. "if god predestined me to be rich and well off in this world, why would he fuck me i the next?"

And then SUDDENLY CAPITALISM EVERYWHERE!

>>18059184
I'd say I like the orthodox explanation more but the christian one is more suited for spreading a religion and keeping believers

I wonder just how much of christian teachings these days has been specifically crafted not to be true to the original teachings but to the wishes of the leaders to spread their faith as far and fast as possible

>>18059200
leave it to the dutch to come up the capitalist jesus

I'm just leaving this here for quality comparison purposes.

>>>/sci/4393743

>>18056926
>Also, I'm calling bullshit on the stillborn to hell. Catholic teachings specifically state that before a child reaches the age of reason he/she is utterly pure.

Yeah, since the 1990s when the catechism was amended to say that. There used to be a Limbo of Infants since Augustine's times, confirmed by various theologians.

>>18057179
These are just as legit as the canon gospels. IE: not at all. But at least with the canon ones, you can be pretty sure that Luke was written or at least dictated by someone who really lived in Jerusalem around the time Jesus was crucified, or that Gospel of Mark was written by an educated person with knowledge of Greek and Roman culture, which fits Mark's background.

>>18057239
>The angels do not have free will because it is implied that that is a gift to humanity.
It is definitely a part of Catholic canon that angels have free will.

(cont)

>>18059341
Once again /tg/ does it better.

>>18059361
>>18057410
>If you want the historical, secular interpretation, Jesus was disliked by the scribes and Pharisees and other high-ranking figures in Judaism because they felt he threatened their authority, so they went to the Romans to have him executed. The Romans did so because they feared a Jewish revolt (which happened anyways around 70 AD).

Finding the historical background hidden between the lines of Bible is awesome. For instance, there's the fact that Judas' name "Iscariot" can be read as a mangling of Roman "of the Sicarii", while Barabbas is referred to as "bandit", the same word that Josephus called the Sicarii.

And who were they? Sicarii were the world's first real terrorist organisation, a radical offshoot of the Jewish Zealot (kana'im) movement, who used assassinations and terror to expel the Romans.

In that light, Judas' betrayal and the Jews choosing Barabbas over Jesus can be read as them becoming disillusioned with his non-violent resistance and choosing a more radical path, one that led to the 70AD rebellion.
>>18057427
>Oh, speaking of which, check most religions which are led by a dominantly masculin or outright male, sky or air oriented deity, and you'll find that nearly always, they have to "use" a more-or-less demonic force when their goals ask for breaking their own rules.

Zoroastrism fits all these criteria, but Ahura Mazda has no such "demonic force in his employ". Or am I wrong?

Also, awesome thread /tg/. You're the best board.

>>18059263
To a degree, all of them, but the religious principles that underpin Christianity as a whole are very well suited for the wildfire spread.

It's always been a religion that accommodates the locals.

Romans want a cosmopolitan God? Done.
Germans want an unstoppable warrior God? Done.
Mexicans want to have one God but keep all their old ones in lesser formats? He's a jealous God, but he likes flunkies. Done.
Serbs want a God who hates Albanians? Done.
French want a God who likes wine? Done.
Swedes want a God who lets them murder all the people they want? Done.

>>18056243

You guys don't get a manticore vibe from this? Surprisingly hard to find an awesomesauce picture of a more humanoid one with the scorpion tail showing, but whatever.

>>18056437
Actually, Behemoth is thought to be referencing a hippo, while leviathan is thought to be a story about a whale due to the references of harpoons.

The dragons in the bible, if I'm not mistaken, are basically a sneaky way of saying all other religions are evil, because all dragons are evil and therefore anyone who portrays them in a positive light is evil. (The Asian cultures, central American cultures, etc.)

Off the top of my head, the only people who acknowledged dinosaurs as dragons were the Chinese, who mistook (and sold powdered) dinosaur fossils as dragon bones.

The other old culture I can think of who was even aware of dinosaurs having existed were the Native Americans, who referred to these mysterious giant bones as the 'grandfather of the buffalo'.

>>18059361
there's also a theorized lost gospel that was possibly written directly by Jesus or by one of his closest contemporary followers

imagine if such a document was actually found, even in these times it would have a profound effect on the world we live in

>>18059108
>...alright, we can discuss predestination and shit if you like, uildif.
Yeah, I'd like to hear more about it, as I was wondering about it another day.

If you're destined to go to heaven anyway, why don't you just do whatever you want, including, but not limited to, pillaging and burning.

I know that the Calvinist doctrine says that a good conduct in the earthly life is a sign of being predestined, but isn't being universally nice putting a horse before the cart? No matter how good you are, you're still going to hell if you're not predestined.
Or am I getting that wrong?

>>18059420
I wouldn't say even. I'd say especially these days. This is the age of information, no church could hope to keep that under wraps in this day and age. It'd be public information within a week. The potential culture shock could be monumental.

The Balkans would fight a war over it. Just calling it now.

>>18059425
Because if you are the sort of person who would choose to do those things you are not destined for heaven.
Conversely if you are destined for Heaven then you're not the kind of person who would choose to pillage/rape/burn.

>>18059412
perhaps some of the giant creatures could have evolved from the memories, how distant they might have been by then, of the gigantic ice-age creatures who coexisted with the very first emergence of human language and culture

the most likely would have an extremely profound effect on the very first cultures and in some form be remembered

>>18057680
>>18057707
And responding to tone is a fallacy.
Next

>>18059425
The short answer is that life is a book, and God is George R.R. Martin.

>>18059488
Swallow lead, infidel.

>>18059412
>Actually, Behemoth is thought to be referencing a hippo, while leviathan is thought to be a story about a whale due to the references of harpoons.
Possibly. But with Ziz, a flying griffon-like beast that doesn't appear in the Bible, only in Jewish tradition, they form a trio of elemental monsters. They were all defeated by God, to represent his mastery of elements. No idea about what represented fire though.

>>18059412
>The dragons in the bible, if I'm not mistaken, are basically a sneaky way of saying all other religions are evil, because all dragons are evil and therefore anyone who portrays them in a positive light is evil. (The Asian cultures, central American cultures, etc.)
But they had no contact with these cultures when the Bible was written. And to be fair, none of the OT monsters are explicitly dragons.

There's the Dragon in Revelations, but it's symbolic, and the motiff itself can be traced to the Persian myth of Zahhak for instance. And we know that there was a lot of cultural exchange between Jews/Christians and Persians.

The unicorns were rhinos. Really big rhinos, but rhinos non-the-less. That's what the word meant.

This isn't a mystical beast being explained as something real later, it's a real creature being mistranslated as language changes.

So I like the idea of using them for the mythology, as long as you are thinking less a horse with a horn, and more something like pic.

>>18059527
There was no beast of fire as fire wasn't considered an element.

>>18059527
the problem is tracing the bible back to its original forms since most if not all content was purposely changed or given a different interpretation

not to speak about what got lost in translation and transcription

This is all reminding me of a setting I was working on a while ago.
In it, gods are basically angles who went off to do their own thing during Lucifer's rebellion, rebelling against YHWH, but choosing to fuck around on earth instead of following Lucifer.
Basically every major world religion has some element of truth in it in the setting.
Saintly humans (catholic saints, Buddha, etc.) are basically humans that YHWH liked and granted powers to. Additionally, if enough people worship a human they can gain some form of similar power, which happened to most roman emperors and pharaohs.
The afterlife resembles the christian afterlife, but more complex. Some people can be reincarnated.
Odin basically rents a timeshare in heaven where warriors can spend some of their time (they still have to live in heaven or hell based on their deeds though.)

The main thing would be that YHWH gets bored one day and decides to leave and make a new creation.
The gods had been restricted from doing much on earth for about 1000 years, but are freed to do whatever they want now.
Most technology stops working due to their fuckery (although it can be restored to order by a mage).
Lucifer is now the most powerful being on earth, he is deceitful, megalomaniacle, and beautiful.

The players would basically be trying to reestablish order. Most gods are assholes, but some (like Promethius) are pretty cool guys.

Yeah, I stole the idea for "gods come back, technology stops working" from a thread here on /tg/ a while ago.

>>18059425

You know how in some old video games, you'd be given a choice, and if you chose wrong you'd get something like this
>but thou must!
over and over until you chose correctly? That's a decent, if highly simplistic, metaphor for predestination. There are no choices, just the illusion of choice, and all your actions are already decided for you long before you're born.

>>18059684
except in predestination you wouldn't pick the wrong choice to begin with.

>>18059460
Actually, I forget what it's called, but that's the theory behind the more folklore-y humanoid monsters like trolls and ogres and stuff. The theory is that references to big, hairy, ugly humans with heavy brow-lines could have been stories about our ancestors co-existing with other... for lack of a better term, 'cave-men', since I can't remember the three species that existed before humans become the dominant race. I'm terrible with names.

To make up for it, enjoy a picture of what's thought to be the origin of the one-eyed giant, the cyclops. (It's an elephant skull).

>>18059527
I'm sure I'm wrong in some respect, now that I think about it I may be remembering the portrayal of dragons in more modern times, considering the Mayan religion and the Bible already had dragon references in them when Cortez showed up with the Bible and introduced it, it's unlikely that they knew about each other's religions before that.

>>18059709
Neanderthals
and I heard that it was more likely tales of Gorillas told to people who had never seen one

>mfw the ignorant asshole is the one dissing of Religion.

Shit, /tg/, I knew you were the master board but this is straight golden.