The first thing you need to do is to create a demiplane with Genesis, with the following traits: Timeless, Highly Morphic, Major negative dominant and Dead Magic. We shall call this demiplane the Chamber Plane. We will instantly use the Highly Morphic ability to change the nature of the plane to non-major dominant and normal magic while we prepare the chamber

Now, it is important to note that as a Dead Magic plane, the Chamber plane functions as if it's permanently under Antimagic Field; except it does not affect permanent planar portals that we'll be using. How do we use permanent planar portals? Easy: Timeless trait makes any noninstantaneous spell permanent, and as such our Gate spells will work.

Now the spellcaster sets the Sphere of Annihillation he brought with him, and fashions a rectangular chamber around it, as in the picture. The Portal 1 is the place for the planar Gate back to Material plane, and Portal 2 is where we will soon be setting our second gate from another demiplane.

The Demiplane of Rats.

The second thing we do is create another Demiplane, this one resembling a natural habitat; we shall plant a forest and trees in here, and set self-resetting traps of Create Food and Water. Then we will bring lots of rats to live and breed here. And we will set up Gate 2 as a trap where a rat will fall every now and then.

With unlimited food and water, the rat population can live endlessly.

I am monitoring this thread.

Now, you're asking: "What is this set-up good for?" Simple.

Every time a rat falls down to the gate 2 trap, it will appear to the Chamber, pass through the Gate 1 because it approaches from the non-entrance side and then 19 times out of 20 dies immediately to the negative level from the negative energy dominance. Every time a creature dies from the negative levels from negative plane dominance, it becomes a wraith. As the whole plane is like an Antimagic Field, the wraith winks out. The body is disintegrated by the Sphere of Annihillation.

Now, rats aren't gonna fall down that often, so we will circumvent that by having our Demiplane of Rats operate on Flowing Time -trait. Every second on Material World is 10^100 years (or suitably high number) in Demiplane of Rats. This will mean that there is a continuous hyper high-pressure stream of rats coming from Gate 2.

>>18639927
>>self-resetting traps of Create Food and Water

Anyone who uses that type of bullshit has already lost all their credibility.

After the Wizard calculates that around 10^100 rats have fallen through, which should take around few seconds, he travels to Demiplane of Rats and shuts down the Gate 2 from there. Then he travels back to Material Plane, and pulls the Sphere of Annihillation away from Chamber plane via Gate 1, takes the Sphere far away in Material Plane and disposes of it with a Sphere of Cancellation. Or just sells it.

Now starts the fun part of the Wraithsun Project.

We enclose the Material Plane entrance of Gate 1 with Walls of Force. Then we travel to the Chamber plane via another Gate, this one appearing outside the reaction chamber. We immediately use the Highly Morphic ability to once again change the properties of the plane. We shall shut down the Dead Magic and Negatively Dominant traits. Now, during this time, a nigh-infinite amount of rats has died in the reaction chamber. Every dead creature turned into a Wraith that immediately winked out because the antimagic field effect.

Now every wraith ever born here appears in a closet-sized indestructible chamber.

At this point we shall assume that the amount of wraiths in the small size is enough to collapse every wraith into an incorporeal black hole. The only thing keeping this black hole in place are the Walls of Force we have.

So of course we remove the Walls of Force.

>>18639920
So, it's an antimagic plane... but you have walls of force? Way to derp, OP.

More specifically, we cancel the Walls of Force from the Material Plane. This will unleash the black hole of wraiths, aka Wraithsun on Material Plane and immediately pull every incorporeal thing in itself. This will eliminate every single incorporeal creature in the Material Plane in a one fell swoop. Only exceptions being things locked inside Walls of Force or Forcecages, which will just be crushed by the huge incorporeal gravity pull.

Now, the funny thing is that since Wraithsun is incorporeal, it won't affect corporeal materials at all. Except for Ghost Touch items, which will be pulled and crushed like they were incorporeal (this might be harmful to anyone wearing a Ghost Touch armour, but we are a wizard, not paladin). Conveniently, this gives us a good grabbing point in the corporeal matter of the Ghost Touch items that we can use to move Wraithsun around.

As a suitably good display of our legendary annihillation of every incorporeal monster, we shall take the Wraithsun to space and have it orbit our planet like a second moon.

>>18639968

If you read the Antimagic Field description, it explicitly states that Walls of Force are not affected.

Or just do this

>>18639964
>>At this point we shall assume that the amount of wraiths in the small size is enough to collapse every wraith into an incorporeal black hole. The only thing keeping this black hole in place are the Walls of Force we have.

>Incorporeal black hole

OP, you dun goofed. Good luck getting any DM to agree that that's what would happen.

>>18639976
Well at least OP is not a COMPLETE retard.

Then all the ghosts, ghoulies, slimers, wraiths and wights will embark on a massive quest to hunt you down and destroy you before the Wraithsun gets to them.

Does a Wraithsun have to be within a certain distance? Does it affect ghosts that are underground?

>>18640009

It's an incorporeal black hole. It affects everything within a few hundred AU. If it's small.

>Incorporeal
>Condensing into a blackhole
This implies incorporeal creatures have mass which would make the corporeal

>>18640032
You are wrong on so many levels I don not even know where to start explaining physics to you.

>>18640027

Huh, thats quite far.

Does it eliminate all ghosts? How about the good ones? Once barbarian tribes and native american-esque guys realise they can't talk to their ancestors any more you're gonna be fucked.

>>18640009

If we assume that the Wraithsun acts like an incorporeal black hole, then every incorporeal being within few astronomical units will feel its pull. Certainly every incorporeal being on the same planet will be pulled to the Wraithsun in milliseconds.

>>18640049
No, please do. Black holes are not collapsed stars? They aren't formed by super condensed matter?

Are souls incorporeal?
Gods?
Ideas?
Life?

>In which I try to combine real life physics with game mechanics selectively.

And this is why games don't work this way, OP.

ITT:

>IF WE MAKE A GIANT FUCKING ASSUMPTION THAT IS IN NO WAY SUPPORTED BY THE RULES OR FLUFF, WE CAN USE THE RULES TO DO SOMETHING CA-RAZY, GUISE!

I am just confused at the whole Incorporeal black hole concept. Why would all the wights and ghosts wink back into existence? Also, why wouldn't they wink back outside of the walls of force? Wouldn't the anti-magic field prevent them from coming into existence in the first place?

Guys guys guys.

Hold on a sec with all the complaining about how shit doesn't work that way.

This entire idea hinges on the fact that the dude making this is a Wizard in 3.5e.

Therefor all arguments are meaningless, if he is high enough level to cast genesis then he is high enough level to cast wish.

>>18640054
If I'm a motherfucking wizard who can do this I sure as hell won't be scared of some barbarian horde. Besides we would have Pelor and other anti-undead gods making us champions for what we did for good of world.

In OP's defense, fukkin cool plot hook.

"Hey, PCs. There's this weird black moon floating around. Also, no ghosts. Or anything ghost-related. [quest give] recommends you investigate and will [reward]."

>>18640104
>implying gods aren't incorporeal

>>18640098
From Antimagic Field:
>Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.

>>18639964
>We immediately use the Highly Morphic ability to once again change the properties of the plane. We shall shut down the Dead Magic and Negatively Dominant traits.

>implying wraith aren't energy and energy isn't mass multiplied by the square of celerity of light ?

OrkwithaTI-82.jpg

Can't wraiths affect the material realm? This would imply that the wraithsun would also affect the material realm and everyone would be absorbed into the gravity.

Also, the rats dying leave corpses don't they? Those corpses would accumulate, and because of the high pressure stream, condense, and collapse into a material black hole at the scale this little project is operating at. Congrats, you've just doomed the planet.

>>18640104
>Every other god is pissed off at you
>Massive all-out war between the two
>No mroe ghosts=no more afterlife?

Are incorporeal creatures affected by gravity? Traditionally, ghosts and the like can float around at will, so I assume not.

>>18640145
Naw bro. It's an incorporeal blackhole and thus has incorporeal gravity

>>18640102
>high enough level to cast wish.
Wish isn't "get whatever you want."

Wish is "ask your GM politely and he won't murder you with your own request."

>Genesis

How is it solely responsible for so much wonky bullshit?

>>18640164
Giving wizards the power that literally defines a god seemed like a good idea at the time.

>>18640164
It lets you dictate terms of a separate plane of reality, which you can then make a bridge into and out of.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that the incorporeal mass of the rat is equal to its corporeal mass.

10^100 rats, at 0.5kg each that is 5 x 10^99 kg for the combined mass of the wraith rats and therefore the mass of the produced incorporeal black hole.

One solar mass is roughly 2 x 10^30 kg

The mass of the supermassive black hole predicted to be at the centre of the galaxy has a mass of 4 million solar masses.
This would be equal to 8 x 10^36 kg

The black hole you are proposing is 6.25 x 10^62 times the mass of this black hole.
That is a fucking insane mass to have for a black hole.

This thing is far beyond the proposed mass for a supermassive black hole, the highest classification.

The prospect of calculating the gravitational forces caused by this abomination fills me with terror.

Also, fun fact, the number of rats you have proposed using, a googol rats in fact, is more than the number of hydrogen atoms in the known universe.

>>18640461
Does this mean it can draw alien ghosts from nearby solar systems?

>>18640461
Well, you'd also have emptied/destroyed the elemental plane of rats before this plan could make it that big.

>>18640547

>Op caused Final Fantasy the Spirit Within, the Ghosts were dragged to this world because of the Black Hole but it died before they got there.

Fuck you OP.

Also, I actually kinda liked that movie, for what it was anyway.

>>18640596

Oh god, I just realized. What if the aliens have Ghoust Touch equipment too? You put up the black hole, and few years from that a +1 Ghost Touch sword goes through the planet at relative speeds because the black hole happens to be located on the opposite side.

>>18640135
>rat corpses
Someone didn't read the premise completely...

Overall, I'd say if you can successfully argue that wraiths and incorporeal objects have mass (Which would be supported if an incoporeal/ethereal object attempting to affect another object of the same has to overcome the weight as well), then you're golden as the rest sounds just fine to me.

Plus, assuming that the 5x10E99 rat wraiths have a millionth of their mass conserved as energy (so 5x10E-4 joules in the incorporeal form), that's still 5.5x10E79 kg of mass. (Not sure on my equation since I'm not a physicsfag: (5 joules*(10^96 rats adjusted for joule magnitude))/(8.99 ×10^13 joules per gram))

How about the Schwazschild radius of such a black hole? I.e. the event horizon.
5.94 x 10^6 kilometres
This is roughly 0.04 AU

If the sun were too turn into a black hole, it's schwarzschild radius would be only 2.95 x 10^3.

>>18640806
That looks about right.

Would this affect incorporeal objects attached through nonphysical means to an individual, like a creature's soul? If so, would the lack of soul kill it, put it into a coma/vegetative state, or not outwardly harm it?

you're mistaken, a negative level creates a wight not a wraith

>>18640996

Soul is not incorporeal; otherwise stuff like Ghost Touch weapons or Transdimensional spells could cut your soul apart.

>>18641142
"Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith."

From the D&D SRD wiki.

>>18641142
You are correct about negative levels normally creating wights, however a major negative dominant plane works slightly differently.

What the hell OP?
Why do you hate the incorporeal this much?

>>18640547
No, it means it affects something like 10^30 times the size of the milky way.

Now, i don't know how big the distances between galaxies are, but at the very least it means every incorporeal in the galaxy gets sucked in, plus maybe those from nearby galaxies.

>>18643297
Or about 1.1 x 10^24 diameters of the observable universe?

jesus fuck

>>18643297
Jesus christ. Atropals have nothing on this.

>>18644467
I keep remembering the "grand plans" of Acerak to this effect, and thinking "You poor, poor shortsighted fool..."

>>18639910like a second moon.

Wait this sounds familiar....oh shit that thing is basically negative energy made into a moon! ITS FUCKING ATROPUS FROM ELDER EVILS!

>>18640865
>>18640461
>The prospect of calculating the gravitational forces caused by this abomination fills me with terror.
Particularly when you consider the speculation on just what happens when super-massive blackholes merge.

We are talking reality warping levels of bending. Phrases like 'tearing the fabric of space-time', 'wormhole', and 'closed space-time bubble' start getting used in a serious context.

Also, at that level, I would begin to suspect that this ultra-massive incorporeal blackhole would begin effecting anything that could interact with incorporeal forces and vice-versa.
I'll let you think about all the things that can effect the incorporeal, and all the things the incorporeal can effect for a moment before crapping your pants.

At least as all the souls and magic in the universe gets ripped out we can take comfort that they are probably forming a new universe?
Whether the trip is survival is another question, but could make for a fascinating setting.

Guys, I think we're missing the point.

The point is that OP wants to destroy all incorporeal creatures.

The joke is that a high-level wizard can do this up to that exact point, but UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES! will of course just flood the world with a trillion trillion very pissed off wraiths that wipe out all life on the Prime Material in seconds. This isn't a ghost vaccuum, it's a wizard accidentally the entire world.

>>18640191
Too bad wizards *can't cast genesis*.

In reality, an Archivist is better for this scheme than a Wizard.

>>18649214

...why? Either it won't work (no black hole), or wraiths all get sucked into the event horizon of an incorporeal black hole and crushed/spat out into a new universe.

>>18649254
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

? Are you... high? Or just stupid?

>This will mean that there is a continuous hyper high-pressure stream of rats coming from Gate 2.
This really made my day. Thanks OP.

>>18644625

No demilich is as scary as a 3.5 Wizard with a capital W.

>>18639964
>At this point we shall assume that the amount of wraiths in the small size is enough to collapse every wraith into an incorporeal black hole.

Why does this happen?

Does anything about wraiths or the spells in 3.5 suggest that this would happen?

>>18651450

Because incorporeal creatures can effect each other in much the same way corporeal creatures physically interact. This implies that they have mass that simply doesn't interact with corporeal mass. Enough mass in one place will collapse into a gravitational singularity.

OP, this pleases the Burning Hate

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#highlyMorphic

Highly morphic doesn't do what you think it does. You're assuming that concepts such as mass even make sense when it comes to incorporeal beings, let alone that such beings actually have trait comparable to "mass" and it behaves identically to our mass. And those are just the most obvious problems.

>>18651463

>Because incorporeal creatures can effect each other in much the same way corporeal creatures physically interact.

Yeah, no.

Incorporeal creatures have no Strength score. That is NOT Strength 0, but no Strength score at all.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#strength
>A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move.

My physics is the worst of the worst, but last I checked, if something cannot exert force, then there is a good chance that it has no mass.

>>18651480

Mass is heavily implied by the fact that you can harm them with the mass of ghost-touch weapons, and that said harm is the same functional damage as if one had successfully hit a corporeal creature/object.

The alternative (that incorporeal stuff has some weird, inconsistent property that acts like mass only sometimes) falls on the highly unlikely side of Occham's Razor.

As to the morphic thing, perhaps OP meant that he would apply the Divinely Morphic trait (which would serve his needs as described), with the caster as the person with 'divine' power over the plane.

>>18651463
It implies mass, but it doesn't require gravity.

>>18651504
Divinely morphic would require the caster to have divine rank.

>>18651501

But incorporeal creatures CAN do things like wield weapons, including Ghost Touch corporeal weapons. Having a STR nonability is only when they have no way to physically touch the corporeal world. Two incorporeal creatures can physically struggle against each other, for instance, and one with ghost-touch gauntlets could grapple a corporeal target.

"A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time."

>Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

This implies that incorporeal creatures can affect each other normally....except that there are not very many incorporeal creatures that have physical attacks per se. Magical attacks, on the other hand, they most likely have plenty of. Their touch attacks probably won't do much harm to each other as most of them are undead and their touch attacks focus on ability scores they are immune to damage from (mental stats or con or strength).

>>18651535

Divine rank is never specified, merely that the person be a "deity OR similar great power". Arguably, the +17th-level arcane demiurge that just created the plane to his own specifications with a non-divine spell qualifies.

>>18651542

You play with the rules and descriptions as written, you follow all of them. You cannot dismiss some rules and descriptions as written, and then selectively use others for your experiments.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#strength
>A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move.

3.5 canon. Incorporeal creatures cannot exert force. No arguing this.

>But incorporeal creatures CAN do things like wield weapons, including Ghost Touch corporeal weapons. Having a STR nonability is only when they have no way to physically touch the corporeal world. Two incorporeal creatures can physically struggle against each other, for instance, and one with ghost-touch gauntlets could grapple a corporeal target.

And yet, they can interact with the world through some means.

You brought up Occam's razor in >>18651504, so let me bring it up too.

Is it simpler to assume that incorporeal creatures can affect the physical world (despite not being able to exert force) because the laws of physics do not apply to them, or to assume that the SRD is wrong and that they can exert force?

>>18651480
On the other hand, he could Wish the complications away. Or, if he sold his idea well enough, a Miracle just might happen to help him out.

colette pls go

>>18651578
My take on that is that it means beings like demon lords and such, which aren't technically deities, but are still on the same level of power, roughly. I don't think mortal casters would qualify, pre-epic, at least.

>>18651594

I just realized I've transposed some of the traits of Ethereal creatures onto incorporeal creatures, though it is worth noting that Ethereal creatures are also incorporeal. My mistake.

Ethereal creatures have a strength score with regards to other Ethereal creatures, and can punch/grapple them, etc., and have no strength score with regards to Material creatures/objects, because they cannot typically interact with them directly.

It's a bit of a logical leap on my part to apply these same generalizations to other (non-ethereal) incorporeal creatures, which might follow the same rules, or might work differently entirely.

>theoryop cannot be fun
But that's wrong.

>>18651595
Wish comes with a very strict set of limitations. I'd like to see you come up with a way that is in line with those. Miracle is less limited, but I'd argue that you'd need direct divine intervention instead of just a spell. And even that would assume that the base idea is sound.

>>18639991
As a GM, i would say...


Oh sweet mother of god, yes. I may just make a BBEG do this.

>>18651635
Ethereal place doesn't have gravity, so it makes sense that beings in there wouldn't have gravitic mass.

>>18649100
Indeed.

I'm tempted to do some further calculations, work out how far you have to be from this horror to survive.

Give me a bit.

>>18651677

Maybe there's no gravity in ethereal realm, because there are no ethereal stars or planets. Ever think about that?

>>18651677

Neither does outer space in the material plane. It's possible there just isn't enough mass in the ethereal for it to clump into planetoids, and thus, no noticeable gravitic effects. Or maybe mass is purely inertial there. *shrugs* Not enough data given - it would come down to whatever the GM described when your characters do experiments to find out.

>>18651709
Even ethereal objects that are big enough to have a gravity field don't have a gravity field.

>>18651824

Such as?

>>18651887
The various monumental structures described both in AD&D and 3.xe material for a start. There's actually quite some shit hidden in the Ethereal plane.

Astral plane works pretty much the same, lots of huge shit there, none of it obeys gravity.

Hah, that'd be pretty damn interesting to see in a game.

>>18651960

Are these monumental structures made out of solid etheral rock and in sizes of small moons? Or are they just pretty big buildings.

Since if it's the latter, any gravitational field they had would be infinitesimal.

>>18652016
Yes, some of them would be the size of small moons.

>>18652230
Actually:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ethereal_Plane
>no gravity