>>14975165
Statistics -
Strength
Defense
Agility
Finesse
Intelligence
Affability

Playable Races -
Hylian
Gerudo
Goron
Zora
Kokiri
Deku Scrub
Moblin (Maybe)
Stalfos - (Maybe, a friend's suggestion.)

Playable Classes -
Hero
Sage
Musician
Darknut
Shiekah
Swordsman
Brawler
Adventurer
Knight

Details to follow -

>>14975176
Races -

Hylians - The archetypal "Human", the well rounded race. Competant in any class, master at none in particular.

Gerudo - Absolutely godlike agility and finesse, but piss-poor defense. Designed as a mobile type of character, compliments unarmored sword-users or archers well.

Goron - Enormous defense and high Strength, but low Intelligence and lower Agility. Geared for a big & burly character. Has a racial "roll" ability, and resistance to most elemental damage.

Zora - High Finesse and Affability, Zora's are natural magic-users, agile melee fighters, and good at social interaction. Natural weapons in the form of fins, and unparralleled mobility in water.

Kokiri - Great Affability, Intelligence, Finesse and Agility, but very low Strength, Defense, and unable to use larger pieces of gear. Have fairy companions (good for Shiekah or as just a distraction), and can fit in small spaces.

Deku Scrub - Piss-weak in every stat except Intelligence and Affability, but enormous racial bonuses to compensate. Can Hide, sneak, burrow, have a natural ranged attack, and bonuses to bargaining for price.
(curse you, flood detection...)

>>14975187
Hero - A level 30 Hero would be Link himself. This class has access to every weapon and item, can use instruments and magic, but can't use any as well as a more specialized class could. Uses every stat.

Sage - Hyrule's magic users. Rather self-explanatory, but possibly may have to select an element or aspect to be a sage -of- upon character creation. Uses Intelligence and Affability

Musician - Music is quite powerful in LoZ - this class can learn songs to buff allies, debuff enemies, and manipulate the environment. Excellent in non-combat situations. Uses Finesse and Affability.

Darknut - The big boys. Godlike Defense and Strength comes with the class, as well as access to the biggest, meanest armors and weapons. Absolute shit-tastic moblity, however, and vulnerable to magic and splash damage (i.e. bombs). Darknuts choose to specialize in either Sword + Shield, or 2-handed weapon.

Shiekah - The sneaky bastard class, characters with Shiekah training favor Agility and Finesse. Fond of Bows, little slashy daggers, and stealth shennanegains. A must-have for getting into guarded and locked areas.

Swordsman - The Agile melee damage-dealer, Swordsmen use Agility and Finesse, like Shiekah, but use them in different ways. Swordsmen can use Finesse in place of Strength for melee, and have a tendency to puree anything that can't get out of melee with them.

>>14975210
Brawler - May not be a keeper, this is the bare-handed fighter class. Strength and Agility, I think.

Adventurer - an Intelligence and Strength using class that prefers not armor or weapons, but micellaneous items. Adventurers are the guys who bring bomb bags, hookshots, bows, deku sticks, boomerangs, fire rods, and damn near anything else they can fit in their bags.

Knight - Big ol' armor, big ol' shield, and yet sociable at the same time. Defense and Affability based, this class is the quitessential tank. Can soak up damage as well as a Darknut, without the magic vulnerability. Just don't count on them for damage dealing. Also effective in social interraction.


Forgive my naivety in the ways of games, but this is all I could come up with on my lonesome. So, Elegan/tG/entlemen, might you give your own thoughts to further this project?

What about Humans? Or are they generally mixed into "Hylian" as a whole?

>>14975259
"Humans", to my knowlegde, have never been a race seen in the Zelda-verse. The pointy-eared, but otherwise human Hylians, seem to fulfill the same role. So, yes.

>>14975259

The only difference I've seen between the two in the games is whether or not you have pointy ears, so I think it would be better just to lump them in as "Hylian".

If the knight is a better tank, since he doesn't have extra vulnerability to magic, and the swordsman is a better melee damage dealer, why should I play a darknut?

moar

Not sure about leaving the Sheikah as your de-facto archer as well as the ideal thief/ninja class. You may want to split that apart, maybe add in a "Hunter" class or some such thing. Give them some bow skills, good tracking abilities, a bit of foraging, and an intelligence/finesse build.

>>14975274
Actually, humans have appeared in a number of games. Most of the time they're mixed in with the Hylian population, the only difference being rounded ears. However, they have shown up prominently in a few occasions. The most notable being that Ordon Village is all Humans aside from Link. And Labrynna and Holodrum from the Oracle Seasons have a Human dominant population and seem to be Human lands.

It'd probably just be easiest to catch-all them into Hyrulean. I was just curious.

I would like an explanation of the stats (not only concepts but why those and for which use)

>>14975325
I mean crunch-wise, that is, because fluffwise i love darknuts to death.

>>14975325

Because they look awesome?

>>14975325
This... is a good question. I don't think I said that Swordmen were better damage-dealers, per-say, they are simply another damage based class alongside the Darknut. I suppose it comes down to your preferred flavor. Would you like a jumpy slashy acrobat made of glass and paper-mache, or an emorous armored wrecking ball wo can have small buildings dropped on his head with no ill effect.

This is, in-fact, what I'm here for. To learn the flaws and to expand, to flash this out into a passable game.

>>14975354
I did have such a thought as I was typing this all down, I simply could not think of a class to give them. Hunter sounds reasonable, though if I may, perhaps Adventurers could be go-to archer? after all, bows are used in puzzles as well as combat, almost more-so.

>>14975358
This, I admittadly, need much help on. These were largely place-holder stats, as I didnt want to merely copypasta D&D's stats. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

>>14975357
Is that so? Hm. perhaps I should pay closer attention to ears, the next game I play.

>>14975367
The thing is, though, that that description raises the question of why I should play a swordsman, because if he's not a better damage dealer than a darknut, he's strictly worse in combat, since he can't take a hit. The darknut as you've described him currently feels like the "balanced" class, with a glaring flaw (vulerable to magic).

>>14975367
What about combining Swordsman and Darknut. In Twilight Princess they had two phases, the heavy armored/huge sword phase and then when you break their armor they draw a rapier and become really quick and agile.

Remove the Magic Weakness and make a catch-all Fighter class or something.

If I were going to make a Zelda rpg, I would go way more minimalistic than this.

I would have three virtues. Courage, Power, and Wisdom.

Each virtue would have a handful of skills, arts, and talents associated with it. These talents would be based on the thematic associations with each virtue in the Zelda games. For example:
>Courage: Willpower, healing, nature lore, weather lore.
>Power: Feats of strength, endurance, blacksmithing.
>Wisdom: Learning, the mystic arts.
These associations tie up with the portfolios of Din, Nayru, Farore.

I would probably not even bother codifying race except to say (eg.) the character can only be a goron if Power is highest at the start of play, can only be a Zora if Wisdom is highest at start, etc. Class might give special benefits, eg. a Shiekah can use Wisdom for stealth.

>>14975400
For instance, the "Darknut" class could be played as either the full-plate mode, or agile mode, depending on the player's preference? I'm hesitant to combine the two, you see, as "Swordsman" was made as the ideal class for a Gerudo, such as the bladedancers from OoT.

>>14975400
Or you could remove the darknut class altogether, or you could heavily improve the Knight class in the area of social life (contacts and friends EVERYWHERE) while nerfing the knight in combat, so that while a darknut is better in combat, it's the knight that will get you where you need to go.

>>14975417
Excuse me whilst I facepalm. I can't believe I didn't think of the Courage/Wisdom/Power motif.

>>14975429
I rather like this suggestion. The Knight being far more social, and weaker in combat than a Darknut. Thank you kindly for your input.

>>14975397
>Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

First you need to see what you want to do. If there's social combat, sickness, combat and how deep, etc.

For one, what would Intelligence do here? If your classes get powers/spells by themselves and there's little need for lore checks, it could go.

>>14975426
I too, like the idea of a slick, can't-touch-this styled swordsman class that fights more like Link. I also like the idea of a blatant, invulnerable tank class that fights like Sauron in the prologue to the lord of the rings. The problem is that Darknuts have too much overlap with swordsmen and knights.

>>14975398
Knight sounds like a tank, but unless it gets some kind of taunting/challenge ability that keeps enemies baited, the low damage might cause the enemies to simply overlook the character.
Darknut feels like a Fighter, or more likely, a Siege Knight? Just kidding.
Something that gives off damage, has good HP & defense, but has mobility issues and magic/utility weakness.
Swordsman sounds like a Dervish or a Skirmisher type.

How do you differentiate Hero and Adventurer?

>>14975483
That could do it

Knights can jump around to take hits and lock enemies
Darknut slugs forward and crap combo damage or gets stronger as he gets damaged

>>14975445
>>14975471
Hm... As the Zelda series has always been rather story-heavy, I imagine non-combat interaction, crisis, and conflict would be important. I, again, am not suited for detailing stats, but perhaps Intelligence could be used as a lore-gathering skill, as well as identifying puzzles and discovering monster's weaknesses.

The overlap of the fighter classes is indeed a problem. Perhaps we lean away from the Darknut's unarmored, rapier-toting agile form, leaving that to the Swordsman, while the Knight leaves the Darknut to tank, taking the role of the socially influencial character, who can still hold his own in a fight if need be.

>>14975483
Make the Hero a bit more like the Factotum and you'd be set. They can be what they need to be at that time, whether it's stealthy, ranged, melee... But they need time to adjust to a new role and can never be better than a specialized class.

Easy. Make the Dark Knut/Iron Knuckle the MOST powerful melee fighter. He's also incredibly slow, has great defense but if your opponent can wield magic or throw a bomb at you, whoops, you're toast.

The Knight becomes your "generic" tank class, with abilities built around taking and returning damage. Keep the social aspect.

Swordsmen sacrifice power and defense for insane speed and abilities. Give them escape mechanics, or something similar.

Now we have three distinct classes that do different things!

>>14975444
> Excuse me whilst I facepalm. I can't believe I didn't think of the Courage/Wisdom/Power motif.
Haha yeah. Well, I think if you made those three the basis for your attribute system, you'd hit closer to the right thematic note. Each virtue entails some ideas about a character's physical, mental, AND social abilities. For example, in the LoZ universe, high Power reflects not only physical strength, but also an intimidating aura; high Courage reflects tenacity and adaptability to new situations, and a general friendliness; and high Wisdom reflects magical ability and also a regal bearing and leadership abilities.

If you're interested, some nerds have penned up a Zelda d20 rule book. I'm uploading it to RapidShare right now, I'll post a link here in a second.

>>14975483
This is what I get for typing so slowly, I miss posts.

The difference between Hero and Adventurer is that a Hero can use magic if need be, toy around with items, but still be able to draw a sword and join in with the fighter classes if the chips are down (just don't expect him to last long without Knight or Darknut support). Adventurers, however, Are completely out-of-place in a swordfight, and cannot use magic, but can use items like the Hookshot or Bombs, far better than even the hero. Think of them sort of like a D&D Artificer, I suppose.

Forgive me for shitting in the happy train, but isn't there already a fully-fledged Zelda RPG?

>>14975546
Dark Knut/Iron Knuckle

I always got the feeling those were like the fantasy equivalent of 40k servitors. Lobomized, restrained victims of dark magic.

>>14975546
So, drop down movement from say... 30 to 10-15 feet and also give them a slower attack progression (per round) but an increase to damage as a class feature, such as free Weapon Focus/Specialization feats as well as the greaters

>>14975564
High Courage also lets you cast Farore's Wind so you can run away from battles.

>>14975574
And here it is:
https://rapidshare.com/files/2338064031/Zelda_d20.pdf

>>14975577
Kinda what the Factotum did, they learn a bit of pseudomagic IIRC...

>>14975564
This could work... Let me know if you have any ideas on how to work the three virtues into the classes, to replace stats.

>>14975574
Most appreciated.

>>14975540
I can't say I know what a Factotum is, I'm afraid...

>>14975546
Thank you kindly, my good man! Very much appreciated.

Physical, Mental, Social, typical obstacle types.
Power, Wisdom, Courage? Would that fit?

How about structuring the classes around the same trinity of factors?
Power classes tend to answer everything with violence, or at least has a focus in dealing damage.
Wisdom classes deal with problems using their skills, whether stealth, item use, or even spells.
Courage classes would certainly be the charismatic, social types. Tend to have team support abilities.

>>14975582
Well, we'll just have to make this one BETTER, won't we?

>>14975590
I really only saw the OoT ones to be that, honestly. The other game's Darknuts struck me as just fuck-off powerful knights, working for the not-Link side.

DID I MENTION I TYPE SLOWLY AND MISS POSTS? DOHOHOHO

>>14975564
Whoops, did I miss the meaning of the Triforce?

>>14975629
After a lifetime of work, few can claim even a fraction
of the versatility that the factotum displays every day.
Skilled in nearly every art, factotums draw upon their lore
to master almost any trade or ability for a brief period of
time before other pursuits draw their attention. Whereas
bards use their general knowledge to aid others, factotums
focus their abilities solely upon themselves. Constantly on
the hunt for new abilities and tricks, factotums eventually
fi nd the right tool to overcome practically any problem.
However, a factotum cannot go it alone. He relies on
sudden fl ashes of insight gleaned from his studies and
the broad array of his experiences. He might not be the
best fi ghter or the mightiest spellcaster in a group, but
when the party needs a stout warrior or an arcane spell,
the factotum can provide it.
If you like having a trick up your sleeve, or if you want to
have an answer to almost any problem, then the factotum
is the class for you. Your intellect bolsters your fi ghting
ability, and your basic understanding of divine magic and
arcane spells allows you to manipulate magical energy.

More or less... Factotum

Here's an idea.

Power: Split into two stats, Force and Bearing. Force being your everyday 'hit things' and Bearing being the social aspect. Force can also be used to influence other characters/NPC's, because how forceful your words are and how powerful your bearing can show you as more intimidating. In a less Power-oriented character, Bearing could represent how outgoing and friendly or regal and noble you appear.

Courage becomes Fortitude and Luck (or something along these lines), representing your never-say-die attitude and your pure luck when responding to anything ever. Luck can affect a multitude of rolls, for example, and fortitude directly represents your inability to give up in the face of danger.

Wisdom is also split into two. Mysticism and Connection. Mysticism is exactly that, your magical might and the extent of your power. Connection is how you influence NPCs, other characters, spiritual beings in the spirit realm.

Every character has values in these, with each class responding better to a particular value. The Dark Knut would obviously be more Power oriented, while a Sage would be dominant in Wisdom.

>>14975675
This certainly sounds like the role I pictured the Hero taking in a party. Thanks for that bit of fluff. (sauce?)

>>14975637
Hmm... any ideas on what classes would use what virtues?

If I may, does anyone have any suggestions in terms of races? Additionally... would It be too much to ask for this to be archived? Sorry, I'm not sure what warrants archiving here on /tg/, thou I'd like to be able to find the posts later.

>>14975629
Well, to be honest, the three virtues are the focal thematic point of the games. The difference between, say, Link and Zelda is not their class, but the fact that Link acts on the basis of Courage and Zelda on the basis of Wisdom. It's the virtues that define what they can or can't do.

With a multi-PC party in a p&p game, it's a little more complicated. My recommendation would be to say something like, Courage covers the Tank functions (like shielding allies), Power covers DPR, and Wisdom covers support functions (heal/buff and control).

You could also have a few general "background" splats, which would include things like race and upbringing, which would give you access to special abilities based on your virtues.

>>14975714
Perhaps of each of these now 6 aspects, each class be be ocused on two? for example, a Darknut being Force and Fortitude, perhaps, while Knights are Fortitude and Connection?

>>14975714
Why? Why is six better than three?

>>14975753
That could work. Some would be Multi-Aspect, while pure classes (Sage, Hero for example) will dominately use Wisdom and Courage respectively. Of course a Hero would have decent stats all round, but a Sage would want more in th Wisdom category than, say, Power.

>>14975564
Looking over some descriptions:
- Power: Physical + Mental
- Wisdom: Mental + Social
- Courage: Physical + Social

Your thoughts?

>>14975765
Certainly more versatile, I think. Not that I'm a good authority on this, or anything.

>>14975765
Why three? Why not one?

It's sort of like that. With the Aspects split into two, one could focus on being more towards one end of that Aspect than the other. Example: Gannondorf Dragmire is very much power, but he appears to have more Bearing than Force (more personable, winning the King with words than with an army).

At least until Link fucked his shit and he went nuts and became the manifestation of Power.

>>14975768
True, though depending on a Sage's preferred spells, other virtues could come into play. I imagine Power would be helpful if a Sage decided to just spam Din's fire at every problem.

>>14975778
Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but, If we're going with Darknut as the supreme "Power" class, I can't see a Darknut being at all associated with mental strength.

>>14975780
Characters are more versatile when the skills they have cover more ground.

Personally, I'm really big on minimalism, down on fiddly bits for their own sake, and I'm big on staying faithful to the themes of a story.

>>14975722
The Factotum is in the Dungeonscape book, taken right from the introduction of the class.

>>14975714
>>14975793
Eh, Power = Physical & Social, while Courage = Physical & Mental?

. . .
Well, Link is a silent Hero.
+BA-DUM-TISH+

>>14975793
>Why three? Why not one?
Those particular three are thematically important to the source material. The source material doesn't divide each one into two parts. They're three distinct core ideas that don't need to be reduced any further for the sake of the kind of story that LoZ games tell. I'd be way more interested in a game that was faithful to the theme of Courage, Power, and Wisdom overcoming conflict, than one in which I could play a Darknut class.

>Darknut and Sheikah as classes

ugh, though that's not as bad as that zelda rpg that called magic users wizzrobes

>>14975820
Yeah, seems like I am mistaken.

>>14975826
Faith toward a story's theme is always respectable. I salute you on that.

>>14975828
I see.


Any suggestions as far as races go? I'm still not sure whether Moblins or Stalfos should be playable, and I'm hesitant to even suggest Twili.

>>14975853
Of course. I understand why the Three are pretty damn important.

So what does Power cover? And Wisdom and Courage? What actions do each preside over and why?

>>14975866
different guy here, but have my two cents:

stalfos no, there's not much of a precedent for them being any more than occasionally intelligent walking dead.

moblins are tricky because they're very much akin to goblinoids in D&D.

D&D: Bugbear, Orc, Goblin
Zelda: Moblin, Bokoblin, Miniblin

not sure how you'd want to handle that

Twili would work though, they're just humanoids who were transformed by the twilight realm. make them shadowy and have a second Light World form built in or something.

>>14975893
>So what does Power cover? And Wisdom and Courage? What actions do each preside over and why?
This is a good question which I will answer tomorrow, if this thread still lives.

>>14975866
As far as playable races go... I'd have to suggest Hylian, Gerudo (if any dare oppsose their King), Zora, Deku and Goron. Most people seem to forget that Kokori aren't supposed to leave the forest/will die if they do.

As far as monsters go... that COULD be playable... Stalfos (with a proper level adjustment and don't forget the no Con score), Moblin and possibly Wizzrobe. There's always a possiblity that one of Ganon's minions wouldn't like his ideas knowing his track record.

And as for Twili... They can't really exist in the light realm... So if they are included it should be as a "familiar" or some sort of follower/cohort.

>>14975930
I'm certainly in the interest of keeping this thread alive.

>>14975902
That was my opinion of Stalfos as well, though my firend claimed that in Majora's Mask (The only game in the series I havent played) There existed a kingdom of Stalfos. As for Moblins... Perhaps not. Making Darknuts playable is a stretch already.

For continued discussion I ask this - How would one fluff different Race's take on classes? I imagine a Goron Knight would be far different than a Hylian Knight.

Additionally, Deku Scrub Darknut. mechanically shitty, but potentially hilarious.

>>14975932
Hylians, Gerudo, Sheikah, Humans, Hyruleans are all part of the same interbreed-able humanoid stock. In many games there aren't any distinctions made between the various interbred ethnicities. Consider something like an option when creating a Human character to choose a dominant bloodline.

Again, there's only one sentient Stalfos in the entirety of Zelda canon, which isn't much of a precedent (Master Stalfos in Link's Awakening. The Hero's Shade in TP isn't a corporeal entity, just a spirit taking the form of a Stalfos).

>>14975968
yeah, and their enemies, undead ninjas.
they all seem rather mindless tho' or rather... ghostly, in their minds. if you know what Im saying?
you cant REASON with a ghost. its like trying to reason with a memory...sort of

>>14975968
hells bells, i forgot about the stalfos in majora's mask

well you might consider Stalfos then

>>14975968
The "Stalfos Kingdom" he was talking about was a kingdom that died out/was destroyed and the King, two servants/knights/whatever remained with memories and could think and all that. There was also the Captain (who may have been a big goron or something cause he was huge and his guard regiment, all of which were capable of thought and speech.

>>14975968
About the Majora's Mask thing; it's been awhile since I've played it, but the stalfos in that game are soldiers of an ancient cursed kingdom and can not die because they have not completed their orders given to them by their bitter stalfos king.

Or something to that extent. It also has to do with the dungeon in the area.

>>14975932
And then everyone has a familiar with wide hips and a fine ass.

>>14976029
I like the way you think.


So, Stalfos no? The Sentient Stalfos thing was a one-time thing?

>>14976029
They wouldn't all look like that... Also she was in a cursed state...

Anyway, most enemies are in a sort of... Hypnosis or something by Ganon or just follow him out of fear...

Also again the Sheikah dies out along time ago... especially if we say OoT is the first game as Impa is the last one... That said, this could all take place before Link and Ganon and all that crap ever happened...

Guys, guys, guys. Get your priorities straight. You can't just make shit up at random and expect to get something good out of it, we need to decide what we're aiming for here. What do we want the system to do?

We want it to feel like Legend of Zelda, right? Fans of the game should recognize it. I think using the three virtues as core attributes are a great idea, and can lead into some interesting things.

Consider Power. It's not mere physical might, or presence, or magical power. It's all of them. To me, this says a few things. For one, that a powerful wizard or warlock won't be a slouch in a brawl, either (look at Ganon!), and in reverse, a powerful warrior would blow shit up if he bothered to learn to use magic (though most of them probably don't). Second, when it comes to magic, Power governs, well, raw power. Using Wisdom to determine just how much shit that fireball wrecked doesn't make sense to me.

Power seems to be the most straightforward one of them, though, when it comes to deciding these things. Courage is very much about willpower, standing up for things, never giving up, etc.. Wisdom is wisdom, all that jazz.

In the end, what I propose is that actions are governed by multiple virtues at once. Consider magic. I'm making the assumption that the *use* of magic is primarily Wisdom-related. However, different kinds of magic would also be affected by other virtues. For instance, offensive blasting might derive its damage from Power, while buff spells are a matter of Courage.

Does this make sense?

>>14976019

They were soldiers of Ikana. As I recall, they fought an extremely destructive war against a neighboring kingdom and died to the last man. They were cursed in death because they forgot love/friendship while alive, although the lesser Stalfos were unwaveringly loyal to their captain, even to self-destruction, as were the King's liegemen to their King.

They're intelligent and capable of self-direction, although they seem unable or unwilling to countermand the orders of a superior.

>>14976063
see the sheikah really seem to be a tribe of hylians as opposed to an entirely separate race. by OoT they've all pretty much lost their cultural roots or otherwise bred themselves out

I like the idea of having power, wisdom and courage then having sub sections
so power can be either warrior or mage etc

>>14976063
I think three settings work best.
1)Post OOT/Twilight Princess
2)Termina/Majora's Mask
3)Split Timeline/Great Ocean

Thoughts?

>>14976070
Very much so. Thank you for your input. What do you propose for weapon users? I imagine Power and Courage, but how would they implement Wisdom?

>>14976101
considering the jilted nature of zelda continuity, along with hyrule's almost irreconcilable geography, picking a specific game as a setting is probably your best bet. don't be afraid to add in a few other settings too though (labrynna, holodrum, LttP hyrule)

>>14976086
Parallel universe.

Normal Stalfos seem to be the victims of some ancient genocide, reanimated by dark magic and roaming Hyrule's fields at night.

>>14976087
Sheikah are their own tribe of Hylians, who swore loyalty to the King of Hyrule. Had their own villages and traditions. (And artifacts). They're gone, but their traditions, enemies, and artifacts aren't.

I have no constructive input. but Im monitoring

>>14976101
We discussed Wind Waker briefly when we started this, but the problem we found was the extreme lack of options when compared to other settings. The Wind Waker world really only loans itself to characters who can move around ahowever they please, and preferably don't weigh very much (lolboats)

>>14976070 con't

For other things, classes, pure skill based, skill oriented with archetypes? Levels? How many skills? How large an impact from race? How crunchy?

Keeping with the spirit of the games, I think we should avoid making things too complicated. I don't want to go freeform with things, but I think it should run pretty quickly.

I'm not sure I like locking characters into advancing in a single class that just does a single thing. They're still characters, not random enemies in a video game. I think it needs to allow some freedom in this regard, rather than making up a class for every archetype you can think of.

Maybe classes and races should be in the same category, for that matter. Who ever heard of a Goron Darknut, right? On the other hand, a goron wearing heavy armor and a big sword is a fair concept, isn't it?
I also think race shouldn't have too huge an impact on a character, but that's very much a personal preference.

>>14976113

Maybe Wisdom is technical skill or finesse. Ganondorf, at least in his OoT and Twilight Princess incarnations, was all about massively powerful attacks that nevertheless lacked subtlety and telegraphed themselves pretty far in advance. Wind Waker Ganondor, having grown in Wisdom with age, has a far more elaborate fighting style that, while still overpowering, is pretty technical as well.

>>14976101
>>14976120
Honestly, I don't see why we have to tie it into a a single game/setting. Most of the Races and Monsters appear throughout the Zelda games so if we get the bases down, (A set of rules, races/classes, equipment list, monster creation rules), there shouldn't really be a problem. The GM can set things up in whatever setting he'd like.

just use gurps?

>>14976142
The problem is that the games are simple in mechanics because it is simply dealing with one class, which was Link's.

Incorporating different classes like Sages, Musicians, Sheikahs, Merchants (woot!!) would not be as simple.

How to do Wisdom? How does this sound, OP?

1)Knowledge of weak spots, potion brewing, artifacts, areas of magical power? Basically I KNOW EVERYTHING AND CAN TELL YOU WHERE/HOW TO DO IT.

2)Buffing friends. Wisdom is a support power. Good for healers/assassins/more passive wizards.

Since we're brainstorming and trying to use the three stat system, what about:
Power: damage input, size of spells, amount of HP
Courage: spell charges/MP (which could also be used for physical based skills), used for charm/fear skills,
Wisdom: spell damage, hit/dodge rates, general intelligence

>>14976113
Depends on what they want to accomplish. The way I envision it, things are generally affected by two virtues. A weapon wielder wanting to dabble in magic would need some Wisdom to be really good at it, and it'd help with decision making, knowledge, things like that. I guess it'd be the quick thinking thing, too? I'm not sure exactly how to implement it, but considering how the virtues work, a Courage/Wisdom warrior strikes me as the archetypal swashbuckler. A smash type would probably be Power/Courage, relying on his strength primarily, while a Courage/Power would, for instance... Actually, I'm not sure. Really just brainstorming here. Would have to make up a pretty interesting system to do this justice, for that matter.

>>14976225
Same guy, just adding that this would mean that all three stats are important for wizards and fighters.
High Power increases Physical damage and Spell radius
High Courage increase Spell/Skill Points
High Wisdom increase Hit Rate/Spell Damage

>>14976193
Sounds good to me. Wisdom is for tacticians, puzzle-solvers, and rear-support.

>>14976192
fuck yes merchantsssss.

>>14976225
I think it would be more apt to give spell damage to Power, making it govern that in general, and a durability aspect to Courage (the ability to endure). Of course, sheer physical might does give you some durability, so this is an area that needs expanded on.

you guys really shouldn't be using power/wisdom/courage as stats the way you are. they're not going to match up with useful stats the way you want them to.

i mean, Ganon is clearly the incarnate of Power, but this comes out more in powerful magic attacks. you couldn't really say that Power = Strength

I think you're going about it the wrong way...

Everyone shouldn't be bound by the virtues... Give the basic 6 stats and maybe give people a choice of virtue... Which gives a bonus to 2 stats each...

Power => +2 Str, Con -2 Cha, Dex (Strong but gruff and slow)
Courage => +2 Dex, Cha, -2 Wis, Con (Brave but foolhardy)
Wisdom => +2 Wis, Int -2 Str, Cha (Smart but weak/aloof)

Just seems a bit simpler than some weird mesh of Power and Wisdom makes a better caster...

Sure, it'd make for easier Min/Max'ing but it makes more sense that way. Just make sure to give a negtive side to them.

>>14976278
I don't see how that makes more sense for our purposes or makes the system easier to handle. It just introduces more. A governing virtue makes sense, but you'd have that in the three attribute system as well. Your primary, so to speak. Meanwhile, why introduce a bunch of stats that don't feel Zelda at all in a Zelda game?

>>14976278
So would Race add more to the stats or will it just change other aspects?

Alrighty, Let me see here.

Let's look at the archetypes of the virtues from the games -

Power - Ganon - Absolutely rape-tastic in combat, no matter what he's using. He's proved that he can use a sword better than damn near anyone else, and is probably the most powerful magic-user in the setting(s)

Wisdom - Zelda - She never really fights, unless its supporting Link against Ganon. Seems to dispense information, know things about Lore, and wields not powerful, but fucking USEFUL magic.

Courage - Link - can't really examine a Silent hero's characterization. I'm stumped on this one.

>>14976278

I was also thinking about using it as terms covering HP, MP and something else. (Maybe Saves?)

So you'd have:
- Strength
Power
-Endurance
- Agility
Courage
-Charisma
- Intelligence
Wisdom
-Wisdom

And the values would be derived from their associated stats.

>>14976278
Also, for races..

Hylians get nothing
Gerudo +2 Con, -2 Cha
Zora +2 Int, -2 Str (+2 Dex while in water?)
Goron + Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int
Deku +4 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Str

for a start

>>14976322
Ugh, that did not copy over how I wanted it to.

Power - (Strength, Endurance)
Courage - (Agility, Charisma)
Wisdom - (Intelligence, Wisdom)

Race/Class combos would be pretty ridiculous.

Kokiri Darknuts, Goron Shiekah, etc.

You should put race restrictions on some classes. After all, being a shiekah and being anything other than a Hylian wouldn't make sense, because only Hylians, the chosen people of the Gods, can be guards of the royal family.

Or better yet, remove classes altogether. Make all the races play differently. Arrange items into classifications, and certain races can use certain classifications of item. Hylians would be the most well rounded, while Gorons would be the tougher ones with special abilities like rolling or pounding. How you build your character would be dependant on which items you use. You might be a bomb specialist or something.

Hell, maybe you could even gain skill with certain items as you use them more. The more you use a bow, the better an archer you become, and so on.

>>14976314
Link never gives up, and prevails regardless of opposition. Mental endurance, determination, etc.

We could possibly tie it into some kind of skill at arms related thing, too, but I'm not sure. Depends on what's needed. Possibly as more of a side-effect, ie. you don't have the raw Power, ergo you need to fight in a way that does suit your strengths.

>>14976304
It's not adding in things that wouldn't exist... You've got to think in terms of PnP games not a video game with no stats...

Ganon, Link and Zelda are typical in their world, they have high fucking stats. Ganon IS the ultimate "Power" type but in terms of stats it'd come down to 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 12-14 Wis, 16-18 Int and maybe 12-14 Cha, if that...

You can't just lump characters into a randomly thought up system that has no form and hope to make a game out of it...

>>14976382
Which is why OP asked for helps to create a system, not shove it into a D20 system.

Sorry for saying this again, but could someone perhaps archive this thread? I'd like to use it as a reference later.

So far it seems you guys are trying to go for a system like what Dragon Age 2 has, where stats give different classes different bonuses.

Strength gives Warriors Fort, Attack and Damage, but Rogues and Mages only get the Fort.
Dex gives Rogues Attack, Damage and Crit chance, everyone else gets just the crit chance.
Willpower gives everyone either magic or stamina.
Con gives everyone life, but a different rate based on class.
An so on...

>>14976344
You can have attribute requirements for classes. Musician has a Affability requirement, Darknut needs Strength and so on. Hero has no requirements.

>>14976397
Sir Scribe 05/18/11(Wed)23:23 No.14975176
>>14975165
Statistics -
Strength
Defense
Agility
Finesse
Intelligence
Affability

Seems to me he was planning on a 6 stat system...


He only asked to help set up a setting, lots of settings exist for the d20 system and don't chnge much...

Forgotten Realms
Eberron
Greyhawk
Ravenloft
etc.

>>14976382
We're forming the basis of a system. d20 stats don't work this purpose, they do not effectively simulate The Legend of Zelda. d20 stats are oriented around strictly describing capabilities, which I find to be rather the wrong flavor for LoZ. It doesn't function in terms of "you are this good at avoiding fireballs, this good at enduring things, this good at avoiding getting stabbed, etc.". That minutiae goes against what I view as the purpose of this thread.

>>14976429
No, he asked for fleshing out of the system. Also the original ideas presented aren't really that great.

I would avoid classes as hard as possible.
anything BUT classes!

>>14976429
>>14976434
I was originally thinking in terms of a D20, 6-stat system, yes, but only because that's the only thing I've played so far. I did also specify that the stats were largely placeholders, because I didnt just want to use D&D's stats.

Hearing all this discussion so far, (reading? w/e) I agree that something based off the 3 virtues of the LoZ setting is much more thematically appropriate.

>>14976434
Then you might as well flesh out a setting using 4th edition... You're not going to get a PnP game that behaves like LoZ without strict rules. After all, apparently only a few people in the world can jump, mostly not of their own vilolation.

The d20 system works, and the crap being thrown into the blender so far seems to only complicate things.

Have a look at the Dragon Age 2 wiki under stats and there you go, the ONLY workable stat system that isn't d20 that could possibly work for emulating a video game with PnP.

>>14976452

I was thinking maybe something archetype-oriented. A basis for the character, not a locked down progression.

>>14976468
This sounds interesting. What do you mean?

>>14976464
Not simulating a video game, simulating LoZ. I guess simulate is the wrong word, but it's about the feeling of it, concept and thematics. Defining characters by d20 stats simply doesn't do them justice.

tried fate or savage worlds?

>>14976486
In that case, just use GURPS and add some LoZ fluff to it. If you aren't goig to bother using stats to define a character, why have stats? Or go into Paranoia, where you tell the DM/GM what you would LIKE to do/ are TRYINGto do, and you'll be told hat you actually did.

>>14976468
Groups of thematically related abilities and skills, possibly affecting later progression with them, but I'm not so sure about that. For instance, take a Power-primary (Power/Courage, probably) warrior (or even armored warrior if we want to divide it up further) focusing on melee and heavy armor. Presto, Darknut.
Mages, sneaky bastards, etc. would be used the same way. Basically, starting packages.

>>14976514
Are you being deliberately obtuse? GURPS has exactly the same problem as d20. A suggestion like FATE or such would have made more sense.

And we do have stats, I dunno what you're talking about. What did you think the virtues would serve for? Of course, we'll need derived ones as well, or we might as well play Risus.

>>14976514

>>14976548 again
To elaborate, these stats do describe the character, but in a narrative context focused on LoZ themes, not strict physical attributes.

>>14976548
Like I said before, all your doing is making things more complex by only using three "stats".

Just copy the stat tables and derived attributes from Dragon Age 2 if you're going to try to make a "streamlined" video game to PnP transition.

The problem is, you have a bunch of people who have no idea how to go about making a working system all shitting in the same blender trying to make a system that will work while "simulating" the feel of a video game with no stats

...It looks pretty obvious that the current issue is fluff vs. crunch, so... (feel free to disregard my opinions for they are rubbish)

It was earlier suggested that each virtue has derivative aspects that composed it.

Perhaps, if a 6-stat system is the way-to-go as one anon proposes, we have the 6 derived virtues function as such, grouped into the 3 major virtues.

Something like what>>14976338 suggests.

And the thread gets derailed by a troll who wants to bitch and moan about how we can't do shit.

>>14976588
If I have my way, it'll be less complex. Having more stats makes nothing simpler, and the point is not to simulate the video game mechanics, but the setting. I thought that much was obvious. Otherwise we'd be designing a board game.

And yes, I do understand game design fairly well. Can't speak for anybody else, here, though.

>>14976563
No, the stats don't describe the character in any way... You're looking at 3 people in the games... and trying to decide what each "stat" does based on the character that has that piece of the triforce... They are only good at what they do because of the triforce...

Ganon knew some magic ad could sword fight, because all he wanted was power he became better than anyone at what he could do...

Zelda wanted order for her people to help them, she got wisdom because of this and more or less got no ability from it. The magic and stuff was taught to her by Impa.

Link got courage cause he was willing to sacrifice his life for the greater good against all odds, this didn't give him anything extra, nothing.

The only one that got anything from the "virtures" was Ganon and that's debateble in some cases. They just happened to be the best case of each said virtue in the games.

You can't build a stat system off it...

>>14976621
Then lets get this train back on the railroad tracks.

>>14976613
If we go with the 6 stat system, each stat could be mildly reinterpreted to allow for things such as... A Sage/Magic user who has high Power (Strength) doing far more raw damage with his spells than a magic-user who uses entirely Wisdom (Intelligence) and Wisdom (Wisdom).

>>14976641
sorry, meant aren't there at the beginning

Honestly, if you want a three stat simple system something like a d10 pool setup would work.

You have Power, Courage and Wisdom.

Say you want to swing a sword, and you have Power 3 and Swordfighting 2. You'd roll 5d10, count successes and compare to the enemy who rolls Courage 2 and Dodge 4 for a total of 6d10. You get more successes then him, you hit him, he gets more, he dodges.

You want to push a block, Power + Some Skill or even straight Power. Casting a Spell is Wisdom + A Magic Skill.

>>14976613
The question is what having 6 stats gives for a benefit? Using the d20 ones is shoehorning mechanics in, are there others that are more relevant? I think we need to settle on some mechanics to determine what is needed.

>>14976668
Possible. I was having thoughts regarding some sort of roll and keep system, like L5R's.

>>14976668
The problem with this is that Power and Courage have nothing to do with each other... Just cause someone has alot of courage, it doesn't make them harder to hit...

That's what everyone seems to be missing here. DnD hasn't been around this long for nothing, it works.

Heck, if you have a problem with 3.5 go back to using ADnD rules and change the fluff.

My main point is that less attributes doesn't mean less complex.

>>14976702
Courage does have an effect. In Zelda. That's the point.

>>14976702
Oh? And why not? All the six attribute setups suggested has Agility/Dexterity/Whatever falling under the perview of Courage.

>>14976718
You're forgetting that Dodge is a derived attibute... so "courage" would only play a part, and not everything can be dodged, nor are you allowed to attempt a dodge. You're not factoring in armor into your rolls either. It's not like an arrow is going to do alot/any damage against an Armos no mtter how many times it hits.

Courage = Dexterity because you have to be courageous to run on the battlefield and dexterous to not die from doing so.
Wisdom = Wisdom
Power = Strength. Constitution, intelligence, and charisma and you can just dump it into d20.

>>14976712
Um, no... it doesn't. It's not like Link got anything special just because he was himself already couragous. He was any more nimble or anything just because he was couragous. It just got him in horrible situations.

>>14976758
And he persevered, and got through them. Because Courage.
Look, the triforce is composed of three parts, Power, Courage, and Wisdom. There are three goddesses, one of Power, one of Courage, one of Wisdom. Are you going to keep insisting this is not an integral part of the setting and that it shouldn't be relevant in characters?

Ok, apparently we still don't have a concrete idea of what stat falls under what virtue (or hell, what the stats are to begin with)

I'll take a crack at it.
Power - Strength (magical and physical), Defense

Wisdom - Intelligence, ...er.... something.

Courage - Agility, Sociability (Everyone ever seems to trust link with whatever-the-fuck they need)

>>14976743
Yeah, so you invent the Deflect and Resist Skills. Power + Deflect, hey you knock the weapon away. Wisdom + Resist, hey you took that fireball like a pro.

Armor can either add health or act as Damage Resistance.

And in a few games, you can kill Armos Statues with arrows.

>>14976771
Are you going to keep insisting that the characters actually got anything from having pieces of the triforce? All that did was bond them into a shared destiny. Heck, in an earlier game ALttP, Power, Courage and Wisdom were talismans. Proof that Link actually had all three, which was needed to get the master sword. The triforce was a relic/physical manifestation of the goddesses and didn't have any sort of power/courage/wisdom theme. That was all added in in OoT so that the theme of Power Wisdom and Courage kept going. In the first game there was only Wisdom and Power, Courage didn't exist. It was never mentioned in AoL. Played little part in LA... should I go on?

>>14976813
Point is, from OoT on it played an important role, as far as destiny and goddesses went, aside from that... It meant nothing. Just who had what, and as a way to try and explain why Link and his incarnates had anything to do with saving the world.

...maybe relabel 'adventurers' as 'explorers?'

It would make a clearer distinction between 'adventurer' and 'hero,' at least.

>>14976813
>Are you going to keep insisting that the characters actually got anything from having pieces of the triforce?

I never actually said that. Though as I recall, it's stated that Ganondorf does benefit from his part of it. And when exactly they were introduced is rather meaningless, they are established lore of the setting, and the Triforce IS powerful (it grants fucking wishes). Link has the Courage part because he's the Hero. Capital H. An exemplar of Courage. Whether the Triforce part grants him anything extra isn't actually relevant, the fact that he has it is.

>>14976813
Here, maybe this will help. No, the triforce pieces themselves dont grant any manifested boon. Ganondorf was fuck-off powerful Before he had his piece; he was fuck-off powerful AFTER he got his piece. BUT, they were given the pieces they were because they were the truest embodiments of their associated virtue. This means that while not granted by the triforce itself, Power, Wisdom, Courage all form some sort of set of traits in the Zelda universe. Hence why the 3 major deities of the setting, whom encompass everything, embody Power, Wisdom, and Courage, respectively.

very interested, since a group i'm in is playing a PF game based in the OoT (with some modification) setting.

you want some fun races? look back through the old oracle of seasons/ages games: the underground people (Subrosian) and the lizard islanders (Tokay) have great potential for playable races

>>14976771
Ignoring all the timeline questions it is worth noting that 80's Link didn't acquire the Triforce of Courage until the second game, nor was it mentioned until then.

>>14976865
"PF"?

>>14976879
Pathfinder.

>>14976899
Derp.

Alright so I just started writing some notes and I'll paste them here while explaining them. This is my attempt at making basically a new system from scratch for this. It's primarily Item-based, since that's what I feel is the biggest part of Zelda as a series. That's why character stats are fairly minimal.

STATS:
Power (POW): Determines physical attack power.
Wisdom (WIS): Determines magical power.
Courage (CRG): Determines health and defensive power.

These stats are abstract concepts. It doesn't literally mean you're courageous, or wise. It just means that your power is primarily in that "realm" so to speak. If you want to push a block, it would be a POW check. If you're trying to dodge a trap, it'd be a CRG check. Pretty much all noncombat actions that require significant effort would be analyzed on a case by case basis and assigned one of those 3 categories at the GM's discretion. There's no contrived and detailed skill system.

Next post will detail the item classes.

>>14976702
+scratches head+
D&D has been around for some time, and still, not all of it makes sense. It is not a cure-all answer, and in my OPINION, does not really fit LoZ.

GURPS can be customized for whatever you want, but what OP wants is an LoZ system, not an overtly complex system that needs a couple more setting-specific rulings to work in the setting.

>>14976641
This one is just... Not gonna comment.

Power-Wisdom-Courage Virtues vs. Physical-Mental-Social Obstacles
Power-Physical = Toughness (or Body)
Power-Mental = Logic (Or something else?)
Power-Social = Charisma
Wisdom-Physical = Reaction
Wisdom-Mental = Reason (Or something else?)
Wisdom-Social = Composure (Or Calm)
Courage-Physical = Strength (or Agility?)
Courage-Mental = Intuition
Courage-Social = Willpower (or Resolve, Nerve)

Something more complex, but a three for three attributes system.

>>14976863

There are some theories about how the triforce works for its bearers.

Power: well, you know.

Wisdom: either magic aptitude goes through the ceiling, you become Sherlock Holmes, or you obtain the ability to prophecy things.

Courage: as the most nebulous of the three, there's a lot of ideas about the actual benefits. It might be how Link picks up a motherfucking ball-and-chain for the first time in his life and uses it as if he'd been trained for it since birth.
My favorite idea is kind of metagame-y: you know how you fall off cliffs into darkness, the only outcome of which is 'splat,' only to show up again, slightly bruised? Or GAEM OVAR, and then you try again, this time with the benefit of knowing what that stupid boss is going to do?

I SUBMIT: the triforce of courage's power is immortality! So long as you Try, Try Again, you can get back up indefinitely.

woah, hey there. I've been doing Rp'ing in the zeldaverse for several years. lets see...started back in early 2000 I think... or 99...
in any case, it was freeform, and pretty much all of us were DM's and players at the same time.
Strangely enough...it worked wonderfully

>>14976920
Could be wrong, but wouldnt it make more sense to swap Strength and Toughness on that chart of yours?

>>14976917
...go on...

>>14976920

Look up Exalted's breakdown.

Physical
-Strength
-Dexterity
-Stamina

Social
-Charisma
-Manipulation
-Appearance

Mental
-Perception
-Intelligence
-Wits

>>14976920
Looking at it more...
Should the Physical triangle be: Power-Strength, Wisdom-Reaction (or Agility), Courage-Body?

>>14976917
ITEM CLASSES:
|Blade| - Sword, Knife, Axe, etc.
|Armor| - Magic Armor, Zora Armor, Darknut Armor, etc.
|Rod| - Cane of Somaria, Fire Rod, Cane of Byrna, etc.
|Instrument| - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums, etc.
|Tool| - Hookshot, Boomerang, Grappeling Hook, etc.
|Bomb| - Waterbomb, Powder Keg, Bombchu, etc.
|Heavy| - Ball and Chain, Greatsword, Hammer, etc.
|Bow| - Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, etc.
|Shield| - Mirror Shield, Hylian Shield, Kokiri Shield, etc.

Items in this system are the focus. You can't really do much of anything without items (with a few exceptions, of course.) For each of these item classes, your character has an item level. It uses a notation like this:
|Item|#| where # is your level in that item class.

For example, |Blade|3|

Each of the races you can choose from can only use 6 of these items (with the exception of hylians), starting off at level 1 in each item class that they can use, and 0 in the others. They also have specializations in certain classes, and they'll start at level 3 in classes that they specialize in.

Next post will be the races.

>>14976963
What type of Item would the Boomerang and Hookshot fall under? Hell, what about the Spinner?

>>14976989
Herp Derpity Doo I missed the Tool section. Carry on.

>>14976989
the section known as: OMG! IT SPINS

>>14976963
Each of these races would also have several traits/abilities that I've yet to think up, but they'd be things like Zoras being able to swim and breathe underwater, for example, and Gorons being able to survive extremely hot temperatures. The POW 1, etc, beside the race name is the stat bonus that race gives you. The scale of the numbers isn't entirely ironed out, but the ratios should give you a general idea.

RACES:
Hylian: POW 1/WIS 1/CRG 1
Balanced race. Can use any item. Starts at level 2 for each.

Gerudo: POW 3
Agile female thieves. Specialize in |Blades|, and |Bows|. Can also use |Armor|, |Heavy|, |Tools|, and |Shields|.

Goron: POW 1/CRG 2
Heavy, sturdy rock eaters. Specialize in |Bombs|, |Armor|, and |Heavy|. Can also use |Bows|, |Shields|, |Instruments|.

Zora: WIS 2/CRG 1
Nimble water-based fighters. Specialize in |Rods| and |Instruments|. Can also use |Armor|, |Tools|, |Bombs|, and |Blades|.

Kokiri: WIS 1/CRG 2
Child-like forest spirits. Specialize in |Bows|, |Instruments|, and |Tools|. Can also use |Blades|, |Shields|, and |Rods|.

Deku Scrub (Lost Woods Expansion): Coming Soon
Skullkid (Lost Woods Expansion): Coming Soon
Rito (Great Sea Expansion): Coming Soon

Next post will give some examples of powers/abilities. It's not entirely ironed out yet.

>>14976950
Ninja'ed me.
Does Courage-Social = Willpower make sense?


>>14976953
Mmm, I don't get how Appearance is a Social stat. Can you elaborate on that?
I don't think that'd work if you have coins to buy a wardrobe and some bodywork, or when there are illusion spells.

Intelligence = Logic, Perception ~ Reason (Common Sense or something), Wits ~ Intuition? Or is the Perception = Wits?

>>14976989
Boomerang, Hookshot and Spinner would all be |Tool|. However, there'd be specific powers pertaining to each.

>>14975187
>Zora - High Finesse and Affability, Zora's are natural magic-users
Only magic I ever saw one use was Links racial ability in Majora
>Kokiri - Great Intelligence
You fucking kidding me?
>Deku Scrub - Piss-weak in every stat except Intelligence and Affability
Deku Scrubs Intelligent and Affable? What kind of game have YOU been playing?

>>14977012
The POW 3 for Gerudo kind of confuses me, mainly because I'm used to thinking of Gerudo as the agile as shit blade dancers and horseback archers. It was my understanding that Ganondorf was kind of... non-standard (lolmalegerudo)

>>14977015
I think Courage + Social = Willpower works. Since courage is basically heroism in a sense, the heroic types should be able to stand their ground in all respects.

>>14977048
mmh. firstly, this thread is for construction and critique, not "lol ur an idjit". secondly, nice work responding to a post 150 post old, chucklenuts. (In a more serious tone, yes. It sucks. that's why I'm here. so it can be improved.)

>>14977012
I also should have mentioned how leveling up works.

When you level up, you get points that you can put towards item levels. You get more of these points for actually using the items you're leveling up. This is at the GM's discretion at this point, but it could always be worked out further.

Each race would have a bunch of unique powers as well, as you level up. These powers might have item levels as a prerequisite. As long as you meet all of the prerequisites, you get that power. You don't have to "choose" it.

Here's one example for Gorons:

Withstand Blasts / Level 3
Req: |Bomb|5| CRG(10)
Damage taken from your own |Bombs| is halved.

It requires you to be Level 3, have a |Bomb| level of 5, and 10 Courage. Once all those are met, you have that power.

One thing I'm still foggy on is how combat would work exactly. Here's an example of how an offensive power might look.

Rollout / Level 1
Req: None
You move your speed + 3 in a straight line and attack everything in your path. You cannot act next round.
POW; 1d6 + POW Damage.

Last line is the attack. It uses POW for the attack roll, and 1d6 + POW would be the damage. But I'm not sure. If anybody has any feedback, that'd be nice.

This about all I've got right now.

>>14977060
Right, that doesn't mean they're physically strong, just that they do a lot of damage, while having little defense.

There would be powers that would let them dodge, and be more agile and whatnot.

>>14976917
This is perfect, I love the simplicity of having 3 basic elements under which everything falls.

I've always thought of Humans and Hylians as two different races.

The race 'Human' is sort of like man: stats balanced, pointed round ears, etc.

The race 'Hylian' are more like elves; they have a higher affinity for magic, often come from royalty, have pointy ears. Link and Zelda are Hylians.

The lowercase 'human' is a loose category that refers to any of the following races: Hylians, Humans (capital H), Gerudo, Sheikah, etc.

>>14977173
Hmmm, simple and effective. . . For a non-roleplay game.

It'd work fine in a vidya, and an MMORPG of LoZ with this kind of mechanics can work rather well, but what would you do if your players want to do stuffs that are not combat-oriented?

>>14977208
Personally I think Humans are just Hylians but less interesting.

I mean, all the people in Hyrule castle town were hylians, and they don't seem to have any magical affinity.

Why would you WANT to play a human? They have no advantages over Hylians at all. Hylians are the gods' chosen people who are pretty much better in every way. Humans should be relegated to NPC status IMO.

>>14977173
My problem with it is I don't really feel like it captures the essence of the the three. This system is great if you feel the item aspect is the important one, though. It's just not quite what I'm looking for.

heck, hylians refer to themselves as human at times.
it doesnt seem to be that clear of a distinction between em. and nobody cares. so..*shrug*

>>14977015

Well, technically, it's more like 'social graces and bearing.'

But 'politeness' isn't a stat you expect to ever hear outside of Legend of the Five Rings, and only then in high-stakes flower arrangement.

So, looks like we have 3 systems so far.

The Item-centric, stat-lite one recently proposed, the 3X3 system of Power/Wisdom/Courage X Physical/Mental/Social, and the derivative virtues, 6-stat system, which actually kind of seems to be dying out. Anything else?

(and, I hate to repeat myself, but could someone archive this? I simply don't know how.)

bumpan'. Come on, doesnt anyone else have something to contribute?

>>14977435
I don't have time anymore, need to finish a presentation. New thread later?

>>14977472
Very well.

>>14975367

I think it's abit too class based. The whole theme in LoZ is an incredibly plain individual uses all these magic tools in different heroic ways.

Like if I'm a darknut, knight, or swordsman and I find a bow and fire arrows can I viably use it? I don't like systems that lock out of doing things because some other class is better at it.

If classes got bonuses to things that reinforce that playstyle then that wouldn't be so bad. Being systemically excluded from versitility, however, sucks.

Happy Mask Salesman bump!

Also, someone archive this.

Kokiri sage

no
you cant be a kokiri
we all know you wanna do it for the lolis

>>14975187
I find your lack of Rito disturbing.

> Power
/\
/ \
/ \
/ \
Strength Stamina
> Wisdom Courage
/\ /\
/ \ / \
/ \ / \
/ \ / \
Intelligence Instinct Resolve Affability

>>14979427
well, y'know... insert spacing to make it resemble a triforce. no numpad on muh laptop

Zora Darknut.
What now, faggots?

I'm the one who suggested Courage/Power/Wisdom last night, the one who recommended minimalism and thematic fidelity.

I really think you could run a Zelda game using ONLY the three virtues to decide die rolls. No stats, no races, no classes, just Power, Wisdom, Courage.

More upcoming.

>>14979614
Instead of classes, I would figure out what kinds of "moves" I want the characters to be able to make, and I'd associate those moves with the virtues. All heroes can perform all moves, but they have to roll their score in the associated virtue, so they'll be better at some moves than others.

If this were my game, I would say, there's no need for classes or even races. Just decide if you want to be a zora instead of a hylian, or whatever. If you want to have some codified game effect, I would say it should not involve a bonus to the virtues. You could possibly have a restriction like, "gorons must have a higher Power than any other virtue at beginning of game", or even "gorons must always have higher Power than any other virtue", but I'm not even sure that much is necessary. You might also give different races different uses of the base stats (eg. normally Wisdom doesn't give you telepathy, but it does if you're a hylian, or something).

>>14979624
Power is about ambition and might. It's associated with the goddess Din, who created the world, and its elements are earth and fire. Ganon's strength derives from Power, and it makes him both physically strong, and powerful with black magic. It also makes him terrifying. The gorons also derive their strength from Power, as, possibly, might dwarves, in "Link to the Past". Note that this virtue is not necessarily evil, but it's inherently amoral. (The gorons, at least, temper it with the other virtues. Ganon doesn't.)

I would suggest making Power the stat for dealing damage in combat, and for using black magic to harm or deceive enemies. It's also the stat for accomplishing feats of strength such as smashing doors, lifting stones, etc., and for enduring heat. I would also use it for intimidation and other attempts to cow and terrify people. And maybe you could also use it for blacksmithing.

>>14979629
Wisdom is about law, tradition, and leadership. It's associated with the goddess Nayru, who gave form and structure to the world. Her element is water. Wisdom tends to be associated with science and white magic, as well as royalty and benevolent hierarchies. Zelda's main virtue is Wisdom, and it gives her mystical powers like telepathy, as well as the knowledge to guide Link as he goes. The zoras are also associated with Wisdom, as are the sages.

Wisdom seems to me to be good as a stat for healing, buffing allies, and controlling enemies without damaging them. It's useful for magic that protects oneself or one's allies. It's also the stat for diplomacy, negotiation and leadership (thanks to its association with good royalty), and it's what you'd roll to know things about religion and magic.

>>14979635
Courage is about being the underdog, standing up for what's right, and being resourceful in the face of overwhelming odds. Its goddess is Farore, who created life to populate the world. She is also associated with the wind and with forests. Link, obviously, is the dude for Courage, which gives him the ability to face danger directly. Let's say it's also what allows him to make use of so many items; it makes him resourceful. Forest races like the kokiri are associated with Courage.

Courage is a stat for tanks: it's what you roll to put yourself between an enemy and an ally. It lets you resist whatever the enemy throws at you. It's the stat for willpower and resolve, and for resisting fear and intimidation. It's also the stat for making use of unusual or magical items.

>>14979640
Aside from the abilities inherent to each virtue, characters could have a couple of bonus moves conferred by their race (eg. zoras swim, rito fly). And they get special moves conferred by the items they have and the spells they know. (I would treat spells and items as being functionally the same in game terms.)

So, all you need for a character is: a score in each of Power, Wisdom, Courage; possibly a race with a racial ability; an inventory of items and spells conferring special moves; arms and armor; and hearts and a magic meter. That's how I'd set the game up.

>>14979482
Bomb arrow, fire arrow. Problem, fishfag?

bump

Woo, survived my presentation. If anybody is still up for it I can keep focusing on this now.

>>14979614
>>14979624
>>14979629
>>14979640
>>14979648

This really isn't a bad idea. Should work perfectly well for near-freeforming things.

I'm still interested in figuring out a... crunchier system, too, I guess.

I was thinking, any mechanics should probably work with secondary attributes, not directly with the virtues. Not sure if it'd be for the better for them to be true primaries other things are derived from, or more of a minor role boosting things.

Since the virtues in themselves are so wide, I'm thinking of skills or some such defining what areas a character are specialized in (a high power character is generally powerful, but just flat out being as powerful in every regard doesn't seem right).

Eh, I really need to think about mechanics before determining things like that, I guess.

>>14975602
I always wondered why they were backwards for those two.

Nayru's Love should have been the teleportation (Wisdom allows you to know where the exit is, and a spell to get there) and Farore's Wind should've been the shield (Courage protects you from harm).

Might be like the Marsh and Soul badges in Pokemon (Soul was supposed to be the Psychic gym, Marsh the poison gym, but it was vice versa, at least in the states)

>>14976314
Link: Remember how Ganondorf can wield a sword better than "damn near" everyone?
We can consider Link "far".

>>14981060
Link? That's easy. Doesn't give up, loyal to his friends, and does what no one else can or will. Quick to help those in need.

Combat style? Jack of all trades, with a bit of a focus on swordfighting. Got it all in his bag of tricks though.

>>14980905
>(a high power character is generally powerful, but just flat out being as powerful in every regard doesn't seem right)

Not sure why. Ganon is flat out awesome in every regard having to do with Power, though he is weak with respect to Courage and Wisdom. Ditto for Link, with Courage.

In the more freeform format I've suggested, you could handle items as special abilities. For example, you might get: "Power Bracelet. This item lets you roll Courage in place of Power to accomplish feats of strength." As long as the use is well defined (in this case, "feats of strength") and is associated with a particular virtue by default (in this case, Power), the swap-out is easy and extremely useful.

But, see, I'm someone who likes freeformier types of games. I'd rather see a Zelda Fate game, for example, than a Zelda Palladium-like game.

>>14981363
Ganon is the sort whose plans ultimately come down to crushing the problem with overwhelming force. Sure, he plots and schemes and is pretty clever, but it all comes down to Power in the end.

Link simply fights what he thinks is wrong, wherever he sees it. Much less planning, but he has a code and sticks to it.

>>14981363
Ganon is all power, yeah, but I do find that the guy shooting mind lasers with the silly hat shouldn't have as strong muscles as the guy swinging around the huge sword, and the sword guy shouldn't shoot as strong mind lasers. They wouldn't be weak in these regards (assuming sword guy learns how to do mind lasers), but they're not as strong as each other in their respective fields. Makes sense?

Going too rules lite hurts it in the combat and dungeon aspect, which is pretty relevant to LoZ, I think. I don't want excessive detailing of quantifiable physical attributes, though.

Ok, OP, from what I've read:

Yes, go with Power, Wisdom, Courage. People already defined both their combat and non-combat role.
Yes to races giving some virtue bonuses and having their own specials.

On classes: If you limit some races to some classes, you could have them in. They could be treated like Jobs, maybe, in that you may have levels in more than one.
On Items: Sounds like a tight skill list. Since classes relate to equipment, maybe each class builds up a certain item (each level of Knight gives you +sword or heavy, for example)
On Powers: On these I'm not sure, but they can give extra utility (straight defense bonuses, virtue switches, etc). Don't know if they need as wide requirements as in the example given.

Mon Dieu this thread still lives. Hello again.

Alright, great suggestions all around, so far. >>14981580 raises a good point, So perhaps splitting the virtues up is the way to go in terms of stats. Alternatively, there's the Power/Wisdom/Courage X Physical/Mental/Social system suggested earlier, which I havent seen developed since then. Thank you all for keeping this thread alive!

Well, this thread kind of lives, at any rate. Looks like everyone already left.

I'm currently trying to compile what we really have so far, but we need to really decide on this base system first.

Perhaps the three virtues could be the main stats for non-combat actions, like block pushing or puzzle solving, while the 6 "derivative" virtues dictate combat (and NPC interaction, I suppose, if we keep sociability as a derivative of courage)

>>14982245
How about something along the lines of

You have your virtues, your archetype, and your race. These things modify your basic stats and abilities. Possibly deriving them from the virtues and then adding modifiers, or letting the virtues simply add to them as well, not sure. You also pick out skills, which make you better at certain things. Maybe group abilities and skills together, they're not necessarily different things.
Abilities/skills would include things like acting in heavy armor, melee combat, magic use, explosives, sneaking, etc.

>>14982536
What do you mean by "Archetype"?

>>14982574
Just starting packages. Hell, they don't even need to be codified, could just let players pick from a bunch of abilities. Things like "heavily armored warrior", "thief", "healer", "wizard".

>>14982616
By letting them pick I mean that you simply choose from available skills and abilities, so if you want to make our beloved Darknut, you pick up weapon usage, heavy armor, and what else is relevant. You want to play one of them crazy Gerudo swordfighters, you pick up weapons, acrobatics and whatnot. Casters go for the magics, sneaks for the sneaking... A system like this allows you to mix things up, too. Heavy armor spellcaster, anyone? I think there's been one or two in the games...

hm... Here's my own contribution, trying to build on what's already been posted.

Characters have points to distribute between virtues, as well as points for attributes.

Virtues would be Power, Wisdom, and Courage, while Attributes would be Physical, Mental, and Social.

Virtues and Attributes have their own uses, and combine to form the character's capabilities.

For example, a tentative character -
Power 8
Wisdom 3
Courage 5

Physical 3
Mental 7
Social 6

This character embodies the Power virtue above the others, but isnt much in the way of physical ability. On the other hand, being both mental and sociable combined with Power would mean this character can forcefully coerce NPC's into doing what they want, and would have lots of raw magical prowess.

Additionally, character select skills, based on the kinds of items in the Zelda-verse. I.e, Archery, Magic, Bombs, etc.

Feasible?

>>14982686
>>14982648

Expandan'. Alright, the Darknut seems to be the current favorite, so let's see how this would look.

(I'm currently allotting 16 points for virtues and attributes)
Power - 9
Wisdom - 2
Courage - 5

Physical - 12
Mental - 2
Social - 2 (Lol dumpstats)

Skills - Heavy armor usage, Great-Weapon fighting, Resist pain

y'all's thoughts?

>>14982816
Herp Derp forgot Race.

hmmmm, Gerudo. +3 racial bonus to Power, +5 Racial bonus to Physical to resist heat and exhaustion.

>>14982816

No racial modifiers?

>>14982816

What's the dice system, by the way?

Yeah, something along those lines. I'm going to think about mechanical workings of the game, hard to iron it out otherwise.

>>14982686
>>14982816
>>14982866
(lol vertical 666)

This is just a bare-ass attempt at finding a middle ground between everyone's suggestions from a humble scribe, so commentary on this, if you please.

I can't even begin to imagine what all the skills available would be, or how to depict each races' natural bonuses.

>>14982946
I... don't... know.

Any suggestions? What Dice system would you apply to it?

In other news, I may have to go soon, for tonight is when my gaming group meets.

What about artifacts? Masks, boots, armour? Gems?

>>14982994
Fairly simple to handle, they modify stats (where relevant) and grant abilities (where relevant).

>>14983018
A truly shocking revelation.

More seriously, what artifacts should we put in? Things like the rod of flame/ice, mask of truth, bunny hood?

>>14983086
Something like that kind of sounds like a GM's discretion thing, like how a DM would pick what artifacts and magic items go in his campaign world.

With that, I must adieu, I'll be back before the night is over, so I hope this thread stays alive. Thank you all for your help so far.

>>14983086
Whatever we feel like. It's not like it's going to be difficult to do them. Masks are good, rods, tunics and armors, boots, whatever. Make up new things to fit whatever holes there may be, I dunno.

>>14982686
>>14982993

I like this. I like this a lot.

I feel like a dice pool would work well for this...which is odd, because I usually have a low opinion of dice pools. So you'd get dice added to your pool based on your scores in the relevant virtue, attribute, and skill. So for instance, to attack someone with a big-ass hammer you'd add dice to your pool based on your ranks in Power, Physical, and Heavy (if we use the item set outlined earlier in the thread), and the enemy would roll something like Courage/Physical/Dodge.

Don't want to be a party pooper here, but according to series canon the Shiekah are actually a race.
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Sheikah

Now, I'm sure you could make it work as a class, just mess with the fluff a little and say the characters studied ancient shiekah techniques or something. I'm just pointing something out in case you didn't already know.

>>14983601
Shiekah and Gerudo both, actually, though in this case it seems more like a case of "races" in the real-world sense of the term rather than the fantastic sense. Gerudo, at least, are known to interbreed freely with Hylians, and I would assume that Sheikah are similarly compatible.

Though really, I don't think classes fit very well in a Legend of Zelda game. Races absolutely, but character development should be pretty much free-form. Maybe have some suggested starting packages like "sage" or "knight" or whatever, but these should be purely optional and at any rate should have no effect on further character development.

Just swinging by on my way to bed, checking up on this thread.

>>14984950
Classes seem to have been removed from the current outline of the system, so no worries there.

>>14983549
In the interest of something different, my group ran a game of Godlike today. Having now played a d10 Dice-Pool system, I think it would work rather well with the Virtue/Attribute system so far.

Well, I'm off to fall into a coma. If this thread dies overnight, I may start a second. Unless someone else does so in their own interest of building this game.

g'night everyone.

Gerudo should be proud and independent,and maybe bitter about their curse of infertility.

>>14982686
. . .
You know, that seems simpler than my attempt to make a third category of Assertive/Defensive/Diversive from the 9 prior attributes.

Since you seem intent on use three stats as a base, you should take a look at how the third edition of BESM does it.

Basically all characters have only three base stats from which different values are derived: Body, Mind and Soul.
They closely match your ideas for Power, Wisdom and Courage:
Body represents general physical aptitude including agility, strenght, resistance, etc, you could simply use it to determine spell damage or whatever you wanted.
Mind represents learning speed, creativity, common sense, wisdom, but not really raw knowlodge (that one comes from other atributes).
And Soul represents willpower, fate, mental focus, determination, sometimes magic capacity and endurance too.

From this three BESM derives HP, MP, combat values, and together with character atributes and traits they are used for basically everything on the game.

>>14989851
You're still not thinking of it in the right way. It's less concrete than that.

>>14989851
It's not a mile off, but it is somewhat less concrete than that. More... metaphysical.

>>14990335 again
Though yeah, with moving a few things around it gets pretty close.

not sure if this has been said or not, but remember that the very representation of the aspect of power, Ganondorf, was an incredibly skilled magic user

in fact, as far as OoT, Twilight Princess, and a couple other games are concerned, "Ganon" wasn't his true form or anything, that was all magic

>>14990200
>>14990335

I know, i was just pointing you all to it as an example of how to make a 3-stat system work. You could take it as a base and use similar mechanics to capture the LoZ feeling,

btw, i'm not the guy that insisted on d20-like stats, I agree with you that a LoZ rpg should be much more subtle and elegant. I'm interested in this project, I'll keep an eye on this.

Hmmm, can it be taken that Power = Assertive/Manipulative/Active, Wisdom = Inclusive/Perceptive/Passive, and Courage = Subversive/Resistant/Reactive?
In the scheme of explaining how each of the three Virtues is used, I mean.

Would we need Skills too? Or should we combine with the Item system? Though how do we explain non-combat interactions in that terms?

>>14990491
Link, Zelda, and Ganon all used magic. Link just used it to boost other attacks directly (arrows, sword spin, etc...). Zelda mostly used hers off-screen for disguise and such, with stuff like light arrows as well. Ganon...everything but the kitchen sink, including direct attacks.

>>14990826
Yeah, that's a very good point.

>>14990999
That seems pretty close, yeah.

I do think we need skills/abilities of some kind, to detail characters more. You could just run it rolling against virtues, but I know that would be boring to me. Your mileage may vary.

One option for equipment would be to integrate it into characters. Not utility type stuff, but weapons and armors and such. It simplifies a lot of things, such as a heavily armored character simply having a high defensive score, but on the other hand it makes things less modular, and the only way to represent loss and changes of these things are direct modifications of your stats.

>>14991881
I think items are important enough to Zelda that such a plan would not be preferable.

>>14992651
Besides, everyone loves loot.

Hey guys. back again (on a laptop)

I guess we're going with the Virtues/Attributes system. Cool.

Regarding the skills/items system, We could go with what >>14976963 suggested. The only real non-item skills in the series (Even magic is in your inventory) is Link's special sword moves, but those could easily be determined by one's level in Swords.

What I think we need now is to really decide how rolls work. As in, to hit something with a sword, do we roll Dice equal to Power/Courage + Physical + Blade lvl, and however many like rolls are a success? Power/Courage + Physical, and you have to roll less than your Sword lvl?

What are y'alls thoughts?

>>14994463
What about an L5R-style Roll/Keep thing?

>>14995780
Mind explaining it a bit? Havent played L5R.

>>14995780

I was thinking of something like that.

>>14996093

Rolls are on the form of XkY, which means roll X dice and keep (and add together) the best Y of them. I'm trying to read up on the statistics of it, but it works really nicely when you have a two set system like this (virtues and abilities).

>>14996553
Aah, ok.

Meanwhile, how should we handle skills/items? just go with the system that >>14976963 proposed? How should we determine how many Item levels a starting character has?

>>14996882
Well, that doesn't really give anything. Using a R&K system, items/skills would simply add dice, I assume. Or rather, you roll for your skill with them when you use them. It's pretty similar in most ways.

We should compile this somewhere for future reference. Google docs seems popular.

Also, we need this guy in. Somehow.

Here's my suggestion.
Roll your Virtue and your Skill, keep your Attribute.
Should it have exploding dice like L5R? And what dice should we use?

Okay, I propose a few things (partially inspired by http://samhaine.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/dice-system-roll-and-keep-linear-comparison/):

1) We build it using d6:s. Keep it simple, it's Zelda.

2) A roll and keep system, involving skills, virtues, etc. Ironing out exact details is a matter of the desired range of results and potential of characters.

3) For non-opposed matters (essentially skill checks), add the kept dice together and compare to a target number. This gives a bell curve (well, unless you're only keeping 1 die), making results more stable, and utility skills being reliable feels right for a Zelda inspired game.

4) For opposed rolls (combat, for instance), a linear comparison method like the one mentioned in the link. Keeping the rolled pools (and things like character health) low, this should make for a fast flow slinging around fairly low numbers, also fitting with Zelda.

Now, of course things are subject to change, and lots of detailing is needed, but is this an acceptable idea?

>>14998636
Or actually, I dunno if it should use successes or TN for non-opposed stuff. Possibly I'm just having a negative reaction due to a certain disdain for the Storyteller system and a loathing for d10s. I stand by us using d6s, though.

If we're using attributes and skills as separate things, I had a thought that they'd be determining your basic rolled and kept dice for actions, but adding your rating in the relevant virtue to your number of kept (or rolled? math!) dice. That way, they don't rule everything, but have a serious impact in comparison between characters.

A challenge we face is determining the mechanical space of Courage. It's probably easiest to define it in context with the other two. Where Power is raw strength (in all regards) and Wisdom is reason, knowledge, and thought, Courage is conviction, force of will, honesty, and well, bravery (no shit).
In terms of gameplay, we have things like who acts first (the most heroic, of course), acts of daring (leaping off a cliff? sure, no problem), keeping your composure (you don't scream when you see the dragon, you grab your sword and steel yourself). Inspiring others, maybe? Some matter of improvisational ability (finding a way by using what you have)?

Well, those are my thoughts on it.

>>14998947
Seems reasonable so far. I like the target number idea for skills.

Forgive me for jumping in late on the conversation but I only just spotted it. Feel free to ignore anything I write if it's already been covered.

>>14998947
I'd have Courage as your social interaction skill and a skill for bravery, if you choose to have that kind of mechanic.

I think the problem I've had when looking at this thread so far is that (at least quite a few) people seem to be thinking themselves into a corner with the main three characters embodying a virtue each, and rationalising that against what those characters do in the games. It's not that Gannondorf (for example) only had Power, but that was what he valued the most, and what he aspired to be, powerful. He was certainly wise and learned (he knew a fair amount about the Hylian Lore and such) and he definitely wasn't lacking in conviction. So he embodied one virtue and was just damn good at the rest, much like Zelda and Link with their respective virtues.

Also this thread has amused me because it puts me in mind of the Cardinal Virtues (Courage, Prudence, Temperance and Justice) which then made me think of Bayonetta. Curse you, /tg. And I love you.

Also, mandatory image for a thread of this length and breadth.

>>15002827
Oh, yes, I never meant to say that they didn't all have some of each, and the same would apply to any characters under this system. Depending on exactly how it's structured, it might be possible to have equal amounts of two or all three of them.

>>14998636
I like the idea of a roll & keep d6 pool, but I think the kept dice should be determined by your virtue score rather than your attribute. It seems to me that virtues would be the more integral of the two and more difficult to change, so it feels like the better basis for the "keep" value.

As for defining the mechanical space of the three virtues, I think there should be at least one use for each virtue/attribute combination. This is easiest for power, but harder for the other two, particularly courage. I'll put my ideas in the next post.

>>15003279
>Power/Physical
Weapon damage, obviously. Except for with bows, that is.
>Power/Mental
Offensive magic. Both damaging and debilitating.
>Power/Social
How imposing you are. Use power for things like intimidation and browbeating.

>Wisdom/Physical
One of the trickier ones. Maybe dodging, or perhaps skill with ranged weapons? Stealth could probably go here too.
>Wisdom/Mental
Defensive and healing magic, overall magical capacity, and lore. This one's easy.
>Wisdom/Social
Poise and social graces. Use wisdom for diplomacy and similar tasks.

>Courage/Physical
Kind of tricky. Dodging could fit in here (Link is, after all, pretty nimble compared to other characters we see), as could use of certain item classes, like tools.
>Courage/Mental
Resolve and tenacity, of course. Possibly resourcefulness as well.
>Courage/Social
(Perceived) trustworthiness, affability, and inspirational ability. Use courage for inspiring people and getting them to trust and like you. Whether you actually deserve that trust is another story; bluffing would fall under this. Baseline NPC attitudes should be primarily based on this area.

>>15003317

It seems to me the way fightingy abilities would work would be like

Power or Courage for melee combat
Courage or Wisdom for ranged combat
Power or Wisdom for spellcasting

Link is good with swords and bows, Ganon fights with a sword and is a spellcaster, and Zelda casts spells and has used a bow in the past
It makes sense to me at least

>>15003279 & >>15003317 again.

Finally, as for skills, the list here >>14976963 is a good start. I'd definitely add a |magic| section for stuff like the OoT spells and LttP medallions.

Social skills probably aren't necessary, the virtue/attribute system should be adequate for resolving social encounters. Likewise, I don't think we really need skills for things like jumping, climbing, swimming, riding, etc. Come to think of it, those could be good uses for the Courage/Physical space. Scaling a cliff face, leaping across a gorge, and so forth -- those sorts of adventuresome feats fit nicely with Courage. Riding especially fits in the Courage/Physical space, since cavalry traditionally have an air of gallantry.

Stealth could similarly be resolved with the appropriate virtue/attribute combination, but I think I'd rather see it as a skill, since it's more of a niche talent.

>>15002827
>Courage as your social interaction skill

I don't think so, Jim. Wisdom makes more sense.

Courage: "You're cowards, preying on the weak!"
Wisdom: "Surely there are better ways to make a living than robbing the helpless?"
Power: "I cast Magic Bolt."

>>15003372
That sounds pretty fair. Could it work to split melee combat between Power and Courage by having Power govern damage, and Courage govern accuracy?
Or perhaps just have everyone pick a combat style at character creation -- choose either Power or Courage or melee, and either Wisdom or Courage for ranged. Though certain things should probably be limited to a single virtue -- for instance, Power should always govern heavy weapons like the Megaton Hammer and the Ball & Chain.

Magic, though, should probably not be a "choose one" affair. Power for offensive magic and Wisdom for defensive makes sense to me, particularly given the kinds of magic shown to be used by Ganon and Zelda, respectively. Pretty sure the only offensive magic Zelda ever uses is the Light Arrows, which really fit better under |bows| in the first place, perhaps with a secondary requirement of X ranks in |magic|.

What I was thinking of suggesting the linear comparison system for combat, would be as simple as both roll their dice, compare highest to highest and so on down the line. What happens with dice beyond what the opponent can match... Well, make them have a certain chance of success works. Say they succeed on a 3+. You'd get things like

A attacks B with, say, a 3k3 pool, B defends himself with 3k2 (A is a bit stronger than B in some regard)

A rolls 4 3 6, B rolls 2 4 4, keeps the two 4s. Now we have 6 4 3 vs 4 4. 6 beats 4, 4 cancels 4, 3 is unopposed and a success. A deals 2 damage to B.
I'm unsure how combat should be handled, turnwise. Do both act simultaneously and the dice here decide the outcome of the entire round (successes on either side dealing damage), or is it first A's turn and then B's turn, making it a matter of being attacker and defender?


And on the note of social interactions, all virtues are logically applicable. Power is the browbeating, the overwhelming of any other positions. Courage is the inspiring one, as someone else described a couple posts ago. Wisdom serves for logic and reasoning, convincing people by building up arguments.

>>15003661
I think an initiative system like what's used in D&D should be fine for combat. Courage would, of course, be the go-to virtue for improving initiative.

I was thinking that maybe each weapon would have a base damage increment (measured in hearts, of course, or fractions thereof), and X successes on the attack roll means you deal X damage increments. So for instance, if we take the example you gave, then if A was wielding a weapon with a base damage increment of 1/2 heart, A would deal 1 heart of damage to B. If A was wielding something stronger (say, the Master Sword rather than a regular sword), the same number of successes would mean more damage.
Using a shield would increase your chances of evading an attack (i.e, blocking it completely) -- perhaps you could use your shield skill in place of the normal roll for evasion? -- and armor would reduce the damage increments of any weapon used against you (much like the improved armors in the games cut the damage you take from each attack).

Back again.
>>15003779
>>15003661
>>15003409
>>15003372
>>15003317
Oh wow, lots of great input all around. I'm a bit brain-dead, so I'll wait before I try to compile and process all of this.

Though, I went around asking some of my gamer friends what they'd play in this, to encourage development and see what I'd get.

Ended up with a Courage + Mental based Goron Bomb expert, a Wisdom + Mental Zora magic-user, and my personal favorite (from someone completely unfamiliar with Zelda lore) a Power + Social Deku Scrub, Herald to the Deku King.

How would we handle building such characters, do you think? I guess we're keeping Item skills, as well as adding magic to the set.

Thanks again, everyone, for your support and contributions to this project! I look forward to more!

>>15003897
Character building should probably be a scaling point-buy for virtues and attributes, and a flat-rate point-buy for skills. Then you pick a race, which gives you some special abilities (such as water breathing for Zora, fire immunity for Gorons, etc.) and perhaps a slight boost to a specific attribute and/or virtue.

Character advancement would be by receiving further points to spend to improve your skills, attributes, and virtues. These points could be awarded when you gain a new level, but I think a level-less system would fit better for this game, in which case you'd spend XP directly. Skills cost the least XP to improve, attributes and virtues cost significantly more, so you need to save up to advance attributes and virtues.

This brings up a question: should there also be a separate system for special abilities, similar to D&D feats or DH talents, or should that sort of thing be rolled into the skills? For instance, to do a sword spin, should you need to buy the sword spin ability separately, or would it just be a matter of being able to do it as long as you have enough ranks in |blades|?

>>15004028
I'd say to build packages or tress with feats/specials

So you could have a tree that you must buy in order, with things like Darknut Power Strike or Song of Tranquility. Maybe a tree for each item skill or maybe for each virtue-stat combo

>>15003412
When you put it that way though, all of the virtues could have some bearing on social interaction.

Could you perhaps tie different types of response down to the three virtues? As a really trite example, Power could grant bonuses when intimidating, or Wisdom characters might be easier to sway with arguments that appeal to their curiosity/intelligence, etc.

That said, keeping it linked to one virtue would make the system far less complex, which might be what you want to go for.

>>15004156
A tree for each skill sounds like a good way to do it. So maybe something like this:

>Character creation
Choose race, buy virtues, buy attributes, buy skills/talents (three separate point pools)
>Character advancement
Spend XP to buy talents and improve skills, attributes, and virtues.

Talents should probably be slightly cheaper than skills -- with a dice pool, you don't want the skill ranks getting too high, otherwise you wind up needing buckets of dice.

Assuming we went with a level-less, all-point-buy system. Alternatively, character advancement could be by experience levels, with each level giving skill points to allocate, your choice of a new special ability, and (at certain levels) a chance to improve a virtue or attribute.

>>15003779
>I think an initiative system like what's used in D&D should be fine for combat.
Why, though? Having separate turns might make some things easier to implement (shields, for example), but it loses in speed and is more dissociative... And unless you allow counterattacks when being the defender you lose out on those delicious both smacking each other moments.


Different damage bases for weapons is an interesting idea, and makes the offensive difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons fairly simple.

Shields... I was thinking of if they add dice somehow, but in a limited capacity, or maybe they just flat out cancel a die of the opponent's roll. Maybe it just counts as an extra die showing 3 or 4 (or determined by you Shields skill?), but that die can't add to damage, only serve to stop enemy damage?

The ORE system tha Godlike uses comes with an initiative mechanic integrated in the roll, while if you for for XkY you can always say the highest number rolled goes first (so if both have dice that come up 6, they bonk each other simultaneously)

>>15003897
>a Power + Social Deku Scrub, Herald to the Deku King.

I can't unsee this as the LoZ version of a Dalek. "YOU WILL OBEY!"

>>15004172
>When you put it that way though, all of the virtues could have some bearing on social interaction.

That's more or less what we're going for, actually. That's why we have separate virtues (Power/Wisdom/Courage) and attributes (Physical/Mental/Social). This allows for a lot more variety of characters, and more well-rounded characters overall. Sure, some virtues might lend themselves more to certain areas, but that doesn't mean that you're restricted to do X virtue if you want to do Y.

>>15004251
This. Power might be hard to apply to ninjaing around, but Wisdom and Courage may certainly both be relevant (as wits and sheer balls, respectively).

Are the attributes sufficient to cover things? The aforementioned stealth would have to mainly fall under skill use, which I don't object to, but are there issues of that sort that pop up?

>>15004251
Yeah, Well..

(I have a feeling I'm talking to a number of different people, some that I seem to be on the same page as and other that I'm not).

Can anyone (preferably OP) post a summary what we HAVE largely agreed on thus far? That would help.

>>14975609

Guys the tread ended here

>>15004208
>Having separate turns might make some things easier to implement (shields, for example), but it loses in speed and is more dissociative

Personally, I find the idea of both rolling at the same time to be more dissociative, since I like the crunch to relfect a fairly significant amount of detail of what's going on. Combining attack and defense in a single combat roll just seems odd to me. Plus I think having distinct initiative counts helps with tactical considerations, like withdrawing to attack with a bow or boomerang or whatever, which is a pretty significant component of the video games. But I guess it comes down to a matter of personal preferences in how crunchy you want combat to be. I guess I can see the value of the kind of system you're suggesting, it just wouldn't usually be my first choice.

>>15004401
Another point in Turn-based's favor is that most enemies in the Zelda-verse seem to take turns in their actions, alternating between attacking and guarding.

>>15004329
Alright, I'll try, at any rate. Feel free to fill in gaps I miss.

Each character has 3 pools of points to spend on Virtues, Attributes, and Skills, respectively.

Virtues - Power, Wisdom, Courage
Attributes - Physical, Mental, Social
Skills - Blade, Armor, Great Weapons, Stealth, Magic, etc.

Each Skill is part of a tree, with more points in a skill offering more capabilities with it's associated item/talent.

Upon creation, characters choose Power or Courage for melee combat, Courage or Wisdom for ranged combat, and Power or Wisdom for spellcasting.

Weapons have a base damage increment, and the magnitude by which you hit an opponent determines how many increments of damage you cause.

Now, a Roll&Keep system kind of confuses me. It seems like it will work, I just don't know how to summarize it.

Feel free to point out if I listed anything we still don't agree on.

>>15004514
>Upon creation, characters choose Power or Courage for melee combat, Courage or Wisdom for ranged combat, and Power or Wisdom for spellcasting
Upon retrospect, disregard this.

>>15004523
I for one like the idea of choosing between Power or Courage for melee and Wisdom or Courage for ranged, since it's kind of hard to draw the distinction for which would apply, particularly for melee.
Or alternatively, melee could be split up between light vs heavy weapons (Courage vs Power), and ranged could be split up between bows vs "tools" (Wisdom vs Courage). Would that work?
At any rate, I do think magic should depend on the type of spell being used (ie, offensive vs defensive). It makes sense for Din's Fire to be governed by Power and Nayru's Love to be governed by Wisdom.

>>15004401
>>15004514
You both make good points for the more turn-based.

The roll and keep system goes as such: You have an amount of dice to roll, and an amount to keep. After rolling, you disregard any rolled dice beyond the ones you kept. This keeps dice pools manageable. Furthermore, linear comparison works by simply comparing the highest of both sides' kept dice, then the second highest, and so on, resulting in a minimum of calculations AND a dynamic where both sides can win a little. If two people strike at each other, both might actually connect and deal damage.

>>15004653
So, for example, if two people attacked each other with roll 2 Keep 2, and got 6/2 and 5/4, respectively, attacker A would deal one damage increment (6>5) and Attacker B would deal 2 (2>4) ?

and re: Bows/Tools Wisdom/Courage, which would be which? Courage = Bows, Wisdom = Tools, or Vice Versa?

>>15004629
Interestingly, a case could be made for much utility magic being covered by Courage. Farore's Wind. What we get then is that that Power - offense, Courage - travel/utility, Wisdom - defense/healing.

>>15004514
>Feel free to point out if I listed anything we still don't agree on.
>Each Skill is part of a tree, with more points in a skill offering more capabilities with it's associated item/talent.

Not quite something that isn't agreed on, but definitely something that needs fleshing out. While I think we all agree on the concept of special ability trees tied to specific skills, should the special abilities in the tree be picked during the process of advancing the skill (ie, every time you gain a rank in the skill you get an ability from that skill's tree), or should they be separate, with prerequisites based on skill ranks?
The former method is simpler, but it could limit your abilities somewhat, since (as mentioned in >>15004198) if you have too many skill ranks the amount of dice rolled for any given check can get ridiculous. Having special abilities gained separately from skill ranks lets you have more abilities without having crazy huge dice pools.

I guess it really comes down to how big we're willing to let the dice pools get, and how much will be done through special abilities rather than just straight checks...

>>15004681
Nono, both would deal one increment. It's only a matter of who wins each comparison.

>>15004681
>So, for example, if two people attacked each other with roll 2 Keep 2, and got 6/2 and 5/4, respectively, attacker A would deal one damage increment (6>5) and Attacker B would deal 2 (2>4) ?

My thought for the damage increments was that one success = one damage increment, regardless of how much you beat your opponent's roll by. So in the case of both combatants rolling simultaneously, perhaps a more accurate way to describe it would just be "hits". (Originally, I was thinking of it in terms of a turn-based system with a designated attacker and defender, hence the different terminology). In this case, combatant A has one success, and so does combatant B, so each deals one damage increment to the other.

>and re: Bows/Tools Wisdom/Courage, which would be which? Courage = Bows, Wisdom = Tools, or Vice Versa?
It could really go either way, I guess, but I'd be inclined to have bows under Wisdom and tools under Courage. Hookshots and the like seem better suited for a daring adventurer than a wise sage.

>>15004693
>Interestingly, a case could be made for much utility magic being covered by Courage. Farore's Wind. What we get then is that that Power - offense, Courage - travel/utility, Wisdom - defense/healing.

That sounds fine to me. Particularly given that scaling effects would probably be less important for travel/utility spells in the first place, this divide still keeps magic more in the realm of Power & Wisdom, while still giving Courageous mages a place to shine.

>>15004653
Speaking of the roll & keep system, skills obviously help determine the number rolled, but how do we want to incorporate the virtues and attributes? Should both be included in determining the number kept, or should one of them go into the number rolled? And in the latter case, which is for rolling and which for keeping? Is there any other way we might want to incorporate them?

Personally, I think roll [skill] + [attribute], keep [virtue] makes sense, but I can see it being done differently as well.

What if each point in Courage was a Heart Container and doing a major heroic thing (defeating a boss, etc.) gave you a point in Courage?

Also, there was a whole "USE D3s" running around my mind.

Also also, I like this idea and wish to support it.

>>15005019
That would work if we always assumed the PCs would be Courage-dominant, but it would suck if you wanted to play a Wisdom or Power-based character. Hearts should be separate from the virtues, probably tied to the Physical attribute.

>>15005077
I was thinking we'd need some basic heart count aside them, but I think the virtues should affect it. That way, heroic power level (which is essentially what different virtue totals are) affect not only output but also durability. I think virtues should only be altered rarely, if ever. People don't just run around and level up to Link and Ganondorf levels. A large disparity in virtues should translate into a large mechanical disparity. Of course, you could match them by achieving higher prowess in a field, but even if you can fence someone with more Power than you to a standstill, he can still bring that Power to bear in other areas.

>>15005192
I guess I can agree to that. It would be neat to have additional benefits from the virtues apart from just modifying the dice rolls. Maybe Courage gives you extra hearts, Power boosts your damage output, and Wisdom boosts magic capacity? On top of more specific applications, that is.

So something like, +1 heart container for each point in Courage, +1/2 (or 1/4?) heart of damage per hit for each point in Power, and...well, I guess we can't come up with a hard number before we start fleshing out the details of the various uses of magic, but some bonus to magic points proportional to your points in Wisdom.

And then for improving scores, you'd have skills being easy to improve (every level, if we use a level-based system, or a low cost if we use a level-less point-buy), attributes being somewhat harder (every few levels, or a fairly significant cost), and virtues being hardest to improve (only two or three levels throughout the course of a typical game, or at a huge point cost that requires a lot of saving up).

Really though, before this we need to figure out how attributes and virtues fit in the dice system...

>>15004840
Rolling Skill+Attribute, keeping Virtue sounds good to me. The only problem I saw was if the Keep number was Higher than the Roll number, but S+A - V should keep that from happening. Anyone else?

I'm assuming that we're using d6's? if not, what else?

>>15005192
I imagine Heart count would be something like... 3 + Physical + Courage. Though, I'm certainly open to other ideas.

how many points should we allow for Virtues/Attributes/Skills? Should there be minimum requirements? maximum caps for starting characters?

another thing, maybe not the time for it, but I was wondering how we would stat monsters? I can't see thing's like Gohma using the Virtue system.

>>15005378
>I'm assuming that we're using d6's? if not, what else?
d6's are probably best. They're easiest to get ahold of in quantity, which will be necessary for a dice pool system. And I don't see any reason why a different die size would be any better.

>I imagine Heart count would be something like... 3 + Physical + Courage.
That sounds pretty fair to me.

>how many points should we allow for Virtues/Attributes/Skills? Should there be minimum requirements? maximum caps for starting characters?
Virtues should have a minimum value of 1 (otherwise you'd be unable to do anything related to that virtue), skills start at 0, and attributes can potentially go into the negatives if you really want to min/max. As for maximums, I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 seems good for all areas (though getting to the maximum in a virtue or attribute will necessarily mean some significant dumping in the others). However, I should mention that I'm not very familiar with dice pool mechanics, so this is just my gut feeling. I'm far from the most qualified to make this decision, lol.

>>15005707
Minimum 1 for attributes. Otherwise it just gets weird.

I'm unsure about only keeping virtue... That makes them a bit TOO major for my tastes. I'd want to institute at least a basic 1k1 for all rolls, then add the other stuff to that. If rolling attribute + skill, keep virtue, then you have at least 2k2. Someone with better stats should still smack your shit, but it's not utter pathetic incompetence.
Also just in case your kept dice would be higher than your rolled (unskilled low attribute roll for a strong virtue act), move dice from kept to rolled until you don't have more kept than rolled anymore.

>>15005900
Having a base 1k1 and then adding the rest on top of that sounds good to me. I'm not sure what you think's so weird about having negative attributes -- especially if you're using a base 1k1 even before attributes and skills are factored in. Say you wanted to play a character who's crazy smart, but quite frail and clumsy. You could dump Physical to -2, and put the extra into Mental. Now say you want to do something physical. You'd only get to roll anything on top of your automatic 1k1 if you had at least 3 ranks in the appropriate skill (3-2 = 1).

I'm glad this is getting somewhere. /tg/ gets shit done with yet another Nintendo property.

>>15006189
The way I see it, 1 IS bad. Though to represent weak spots then a normal attribute would have to be at least 2... Larger pool... Maybe the basic 1k1 wouldn't be necessary, then. I guess I'd been thinking in terms of all PCs being equal to or better than the common man in all attributes.

In my opinion, Virtues should be chosen at the beginning of character creation before even choosing a race, then attributes should be based around the race with some manipulation during creation, and skills should be learned overtime and based around classes.

Having someone's physical strength and intelligence based around their profession seems kinda stupid.

Also, did we agree to merge Knights with Darknuts?

>>15006572
There's no such thing as a class. What you are is a function of your skills.

How about having Power govern offense-related things (strength, intimidation/charisma, magical might), Wisdom govern technique (knowledge, appliance of skills, magical versatility, cunning), and Courage govern willpower/resistance (endurance, ability to resist certain things, amount of magic, fatigue)?

>>15006189
Well, in the most basic roll possible, it would still be 1k1.
base 1 Attribute, plus 0 skill points, keeping base 1 virtue. A single skill point, as in a capacity to USE an item or ability, would turn it into 2k1, causing more chance of success.

For example, a character with 2 power, 3 physical, but zero levels in |heavy|, would roll 3+0, and keep 2 if he tried to smack something with a sledgehammer. However, the same character, but with 2 |heavy|, would roll 5 keep 2.

1k1 would be the base. i.e, a 1 in both Virtue and Attribute, and no skill points in that item.

Bumping.

Bumping.

Also has this been archived yet?

>>15006974
Yes, the thread has been archived. http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14975165/

Also, I think we may be past the bump limit, or at least getting close. We're over 300 posts now.

>>15006974
Yep. http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14975165/
Description is a bit dated, though.

>>15006189
>>15006508
I actually think we should allow negative attributes (and only attributes), but only to a certain extent. The person who made the Power/Social Deku Scrub specifically asked me if taking flaws was permitted, to min/max his 2-foot shrubbery's intimidation.

If we keep hearts as 3 + Courage + Physical, what do we do for the magic meter? Mental + Wisdom? or Mental + Wisdom + Magic? maybe even just Mental + Magic.

Do we have a full list of Skills yet? I remember Stealth was added... would we have some way of giving characters resistance towards flinching? Link himself is pretty easy to knock back, but bigger enemies don't even flinch when you drop bombs on them.

>>15007024
Oh, shoot, you're right. Auto-sage is upon us. Alright, Tomorrow, if one doesn't exist already, I'll make a 2nd thread. In the meantime, let's make use of the time we have left!

>>15007064
I'll go ahead and start up a new thread, may as well keep things bumping.

>>15007080
Sounds good. Mind posting a link to the new thread when you make it?

>>15007120
New thread is here >>15007189